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Hello everyone, and welcome to 
Naked Nuclear and welcome to our

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new series, Follow Them Friday, 
where I highlight the people 

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doing amazing work in the 
nuclear space, helping to 

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educate the public through 
social media, newsletters, 

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blogs, books and. 
Of course, podcasts our. 1st 

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guest in this series is Zeon 
Lights. 

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Zeon is an environmental 
advocate, science communicator, 

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and the author of Energy is 
Life. 

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Why Environmentalism Went 
Nuclear, A book that really asks

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the hard question. 
What happens when fear based 

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climate narratives block the 
very technologies that allow 

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humans and ecosystems to thrive?
In this episode of Followed Them

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Friday, we talk about changing 
your mind in public, why nuclear

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energy is essential to 
environmental justice, and how 

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honest energy conversations and 
storytelling might be the most 

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radical climate change action we
have. 

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I knew this was more than your 
average energy book when I read 

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through the introduction. 
Here's an excerpt Zion writes. 

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At 10 years old, wrapped up in 
my own small dramas and 

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concerns, I didn't pay much 
attention to what my parents did

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for work. 
But I do have a vivid memory of 

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my mother bringing home a 
stainless steel saucepan and our

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family gathering around as if it
were a rare and precious jewel. 

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I remember clearly the smell of 
the freshly unwrapped pan, mom 

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lifting it carefully from its 
nest of paper in a large box for

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all to admire in our small 
kitchen. 

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I didn't quite know what I felt 
at the time, only that we were 

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looking at more than just a 
saucepan. 

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I really hope that you enjoyed 
today's episode with Zeon Lights

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because she is an excellent 
storyteller and environmental 

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advocate. 
Thank you so much for joining me

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and being able to have this 
conversation. 

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Well, thank you for welcoming 
me. 

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And so, yeah, it is funny. 
We were just talking about this 

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earlier. 
We had some technical 

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difficulties in the first time. 
This is the second time we're 

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having this conversation. 
But I think it's it's great 

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because. 
Honestly, said welcoming me 

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again, and then I had to stop 
myself. 

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The first conversation was 
great, and I learned so much 

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about you and your background. 
We talked about everything from 

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what it means to, you know, grow
up in a rural community that 

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does not have access to energy. 
What are all the downstream 

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effects? 
What do people have to become 

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when they don't have that 
energy, action access? 

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And I think that was really 
something that changed my frame 

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of thinking after that 
conversation of like, yeah, what

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would my life look like if I 
didn't have access to, like, 

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Zoom and running water and 
energy And like, I don't even 

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think twice about it. 
And so just wanted to talk from 

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that perspective. 
With your new book, Energy is 

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Life. 
Your perspective takes us from 

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this journey out of rural India,
your parents journey into the 

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UK. 
And so can you talk about a 

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little bit about that story and 
how it kind of shaped your idea 

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of environmentalism? 
So my parents grew up in the 

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rural Punjab in very, I don't 
want to say it was, it was not 

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extreme poverty. 
So it was not at the worst end 

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even of what I saw when I 
travelled around India. 

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But they grew up in poverty. 
And you know, obviously we have 

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poverty here as well. 
But I think that's our measure. 

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Like Ask GAIL is very different 
to what millions of other people

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experienced. 
They took me when I was a kid. 

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I have no memory of that 
journey. 

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And then they took me again when
I was a teenager. 

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And that's the one that really 
struck me. 

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And we went for three weeks 
because I, I didn't know what I 

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was getting into. 
Like they didn't talk about 

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poverty. 
They would talk about 

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experiences, which now I kind of
connect to that. 

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For example, I remember my dad 
saying you get chased time by 

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wild dogs sometimes. 
But I kind of, you know, I 

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followed it away. 
I didn't really understand. 

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Like it's not something I could 
relate to. 

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I was just a kid, but then I saw
what that actually meant, which 

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is that they do have this huge 
issue of wild dogs and the 

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government has tried to deal 
with it, but they just breed. 

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And the problem is that they do 
bite people and then you get 

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rabies. 
And then the other problem is 

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that then you get rabies and it 
can be treated, but you can't 

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get that treatment because you 
can't get access to it because 

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you're in the rural area. 
And it's like, so the area we 

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went to was 4 hours from the 
airport. 

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That's how close you are to 
anything resembling civilization

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to get to a hospital. 
It's similar. 

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So you're really on your own out
there. 

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And you know, it's interesting, 
your question was how did this 

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fit into my environmentalism? 
But this was actually at odds 

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with my environmentalism because
at the same time, I was 

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surrounded by people here who 
have grown up with immense 

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abundance, right? 
We've grown up. 

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We don't know scarcity, not 
really, especially not on that 

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level. 
And there are some support 

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systems if you do get into that 
situation. 

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But we have, we generally have 
good access, right? 

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We have good access to 
electricity, healthcare, 

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medication, education, all of 
those things which we take for 

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granted. 
And so I would spend time in 

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these groups. 
We do letter right here, we go 

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to protest. 
As I got older, I got more and 

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more involved in these groups. 
It's doing a lot for them. 

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And their idea of like, where 
development went wrong and why 

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modernity is wrong and the way 
we live is wrong was that we 

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need to go back to living in 
rural areas on the land. 

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And we don't need all of these 
things. 

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You know, we don't need all of 
these things. 

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We don't need TV's and 
technologies. 

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We don't need all of that. 
But it was very hard to. 

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I had to kind of 
compartmentalize what I'd seen 

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and felt and understood. 
It took me a long time really to

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process that. 
And part of that is because 

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people at that time, we're not 
talking about it. 

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There was no one to have a 
discussion with about that. 

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Like, yeah, I can talk to my 
parents, but they're also 

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thinking, well, we just escaped 
that, aren't we glad? 

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You know, they're not thinking 
about the the challenges that 

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they faced. 
They didn't like talking about 

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that because it made them feel 
bad. 

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And then they'd feel sad as well
because they left all their 

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family members behind who still 
live in poverty. 

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So it was many years before I 
started to push back on that 

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kind of living on the land 
naturalistic fallacy. 

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But I just get told I was wrong.
Oh, you don't know what you 

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mean. 
We should all live in a commune.

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I even went and lived in in sort
of like a hippie commune to see,

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you know, maybe I'm wrong. 
And on this commune, they did 

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grow some of their own food. 
They did have some hens. 

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You know, they're getting eggs 
from hens. 

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There were families there. 
They would they would cook 

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communally. 
There was only one cooking 

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space. 
But every week, one of their 

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parents would come and pick up 
their washing and take it to the

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laundry. 
Yeah, really. 

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Take it to the laundrette, wash 
and dry it all and bring it back

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because let's be honest, they 
don't people. 

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They did not want to spend hours
hand washing clothes, trying to 

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dry them in our climate where we
get a lot of rain here, you 

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know, if you don't have a dryer,
you don't have access to 

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anything like that. 
So they were off grid as much as

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you could be, I think. 
But it was a facade. 

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And that was around then that I 
really started to think and I 

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and I questioned them on it, 
right? 

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And they said, oh, we're in 
transition. 

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We'll get there. 
But then I would think about 

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like what I saw in these 
villages. 

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This is where I started to 
connect it, where I was kind of 

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thinking, what in those 
villages, these women, as always

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women spending hours washing 
clothes with river water in 

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these like, you know, buckets 
beating clothes. 

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You know, no one wants to live 
like that. 

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Let's be, let's just be honest. 
And if you're picking and 

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choosing what you can and can't 
have so you can find you've got 

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a nice little place on the land 
in the countryside, you're 

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picking and choosing. 
That's not really living the way

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that we did for a long time, 
that humans did for a long time.

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Oh, yeah, yeah. 
And I think that's super helpful

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because it it brings up this 
idea of Labor and gender, of 

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who's doing what work, how much 
time women are spending bridging

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the energy gap, because that's 
usually what it is. 

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We're bridging the energy and 
labor gap. 

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What adds it really to like 
water or washing or things like 

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that, All of those things women 
are doing it and they're not 

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able to get access to like, you 
know, an education. 

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And I think that's something 
that's really interesting that I

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found fascinating within your 
own story of when you came to 

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this crossroads and be like, I 
actually don't agree. 

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Not just going along and be 
like, OK, we'll just kind of put

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that in the background and keep 
them going. 

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Because that was also your 
experience around nuclear energy

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where you're like, well, wait a 
minute. 

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There are some questions that I 
have and things aren't fitting 

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the way I thought into this box.
And so, yeah, I wanted it to 

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kind of get your perspective on 
how that was coming into 

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contradiction with how that we 
should be living. 

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Yeah, I mean, it's, and it was a
hard thing to do. 

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You know, I do appreciate why 
it's hard for people to change 

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their minds because even if you 
have it in the back of your mind

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and even if you really know, 
it's a huge step because you 

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have to challenge your 
community. 

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They don't want to be challenged
on that. 

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It's one of the core belief 
systems. 

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So you already know that you've 
got to be combative. 

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You've got to be willing to 
potentially lose your community,

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which I did, if it's a really 
core belief, something that you 

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believe for a long time. 
So I believed those nuclear 

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myths since I was a teenager 
because I was involved in groups

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like Greenpeace and Francia. 
I went to their events. 

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It was always the same 
messaging, the same myths over 

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and over again, reinforced by 
pop culture, reinforced by 

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people around me who weren't 
necessarily anti nuclear, but 

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they just kind of, you know, 
it's just a general, yeah, it's 

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bad, isn't it? 
You know, even if they didn't 

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really think about why to go 
against all of that is, you 

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know, it didn't take me a while.
It took me a while and it wasn't

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like an overnight thing. 
I don't think these things ever 

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are. 
It was a chipping away of kind 

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of questioning. 
And it did fit into the previous

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example I've given, challenging 
the idea that living in poverty 

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is good, right? 
I was frustrated then. 

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I couldn't have these 
conversations. 

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And as I say, at that time, 
there was nothing. 

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Like, you've got lots of good 
books by intellectuals now that 

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are talking about these ideas. 
But back then, there was 

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absolutely nothing. 
And if I went and I tried to 

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read something, even in the 
media, they were perpetuating 

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this idea that the way we live 
is bad, the way we live is 

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damaging. 
Look what we've done to the 

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planet. 
And it was kind of reinforcing 

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this idea that we went wrong 
somewhere. 

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And so, yeah, it took me a while
and I started to push back and 

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push back. 
And it was really just at the 

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point of I was at a Green Party 
event, I was a member, and they 

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wanted me to run as a council. 
And I was considering it was 

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very involved and I tried to ask
a question about Newton. 

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I just was basically told we 
don't discuss that. 

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And it was that simple. 
But then, you know, I don't 

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think even that would have made 
me leave, leave the party 

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altogether. 
It was the fact that the leader 

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of the local party then after 
the event came over to me, she 

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put her hand on my shoulder and 
she said, you're not pregnant, 

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are you? 
You got to and it was just that 

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moment. 
Now this woman really lovely, 

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like I've been to a house for 
dinner. 

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She's extremely supportive. 
She's a nice person. 

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So it's hard again to kind of 
go, wait, no, but it was that 

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moment where I just, what I 
realized was we're on different 

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planets. 
I'm never going to get through 

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00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:04,520
to you. 
If we can't have a conversation 

229
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,120
about this, we're never going to
get past this. 

230
00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,240
So either I go back to just, I 
don't question and I go along 

231
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,920
with stuff, but there was a 
little bit niggling in the back 

232
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,800
of my mind with nuclear, with 
the living on the land fallacy, 

233
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:17,400
I kind of thought then we're not
going to achieve that. 

234
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,280
So I could kind of live with it.
It's just a fantasy, right? 

235
00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,280
But with nuclear, it was kind of
more sort of what if, what if 

236
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,200
we're wrong and it's actually 
damaging the planet, which we 

237
00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,160
all know that, you know, there's
plenty of data to back that up. 

238
00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:33,240
But I was just questioning. 
And again, there weren't a lot 

239
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,120
of places to go to get answers 
on that. 

240
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,080
But that was the moment when I 
create the party that same day. 

241
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,600
And I said in my e-mail to the 
membership, you know, you've got

242
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,240
to allow these conversations, 
even if you are going to keep 

243
00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,960
your anti nuclear policy and 
still disagree, you've got to 

244
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,680
allow the conversations because 
otherwise that's dangerous. 

245
00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,680
And that's what happened there 
is rubbed up against a core 

246
00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:57,600
personal belief that was more 
integral to me, more innate than

247
00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,920
the anti nuclearism was. 
Whereas for the other people 

248
00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:02,840
there, a lot of the people 
there, the anti nuclearism was 

249
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,600
more core. 
And so that's really where we 

250
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,360
there was a friction and I 
stepped away. 

251
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,080
As I say, it was not an 
overnight process. 

252
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:11,800
And the reason I say that is 
because I was speaking to 

253
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,640
someone recently, nuclear 
advocate who basically said, you

254
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,240
know, oh, we just need to get 
rid of these people. 

255
00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,720
This is a bit bleak, but you 
basically said these people, 

256
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:19,680
they'll never change their 
minds. 

257
00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:22,040
And I said, well, hold on, I 
did. 

258
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,600
And I think actually that's part
of the problem if you're not 

259
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,440
building the bridges. 
There was nowhere for me to go 

260
00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:30,560
for good information. 
There was no one to reach out 

261
00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:32,080
to. 
Industry had very little 

262
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,440
visibility. 
I didn't even know anyone. 

263
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,280
I didn't know how to contact 
anyone in the industry. 

264
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,120
Like I just, it wasn't even on 
my radar. 

265
00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,160
There was no one to go to. 
I would have changed my mind a 

266
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:41,720
lot sooner had the information 
been out there. 

267
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,480
And the reason I wrote this book
is because this is the book I 

268
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,480
needed to read that would have 
changed my mind as a kid. 

269
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,040
I would have read this book and 
gone OK. 

270
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,560
And I would not have gone down 
the path that I went down, 

271
00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,680
wasting frankly years in a 
movement that I feel like she 

272
00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:56,680
was quite destructive. 
Yeah, I think it's really 

273
00:12:56,680 --> 00:13:01,680
fascinating just the way in 
which we as humans, every now 

274
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:04,280
and again, we get a little bit 
tribal in our thinking of like, 

275
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,360
OK, like this is our core belief
and it can't change. 

276
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,080
And I think it's interesting 
because beliefs are kind of, you

277
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,680
know, every now and again, they 
do have to change. 

278
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,000
And using that intellectual 
process, using like curiosity to

279
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,880
enable us to kind of be like, 
hey, this is not what I thought 

280
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,520
it was. 
Maybe I have to change my mind. 

281
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,840
And so, yeah, I wanted to get a 
little bit more into like, the 

282
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,480
core thesis of Energy is Life. 
You mentioned it was the book 

283
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,880
that you needed to read. 
And as I've read it, I'm like, 

284
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,080
yeah, I can see that. 
Like I can see my 13 year old 

285
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,520
self taking it on a crusade to 
be like, listen everybody, but 

286
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,640
yeah, what is that for you? 
I pitched this book to a number 

287
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,960
of publishers, right? 
And I've been writing for at 

288
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,320
least 10 years. 
I have many years under my belt 

289
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,520
as a writer, as a communicator. 
So I thought it would be an easy

290
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,120
pitch because everybody's 
talking about nuclear. 

291
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,480
But Even so, a lot of the 
publishers are still in this old

292
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,960
mindset that is controversial, 
you know? 

293
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,040
And a couple came back and said,
wait, if you change your pitch 

294
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,720
and you make it just scientific,
that could work. 

295
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,560
And one of them did actually 
then go and publish someone's 

296
00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:11,320
book here that by a man that's 
just pure, like pure science. 

297
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,680
And I was trying to argue for 
something different, which as 

298
00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:17,560
you know, from reading, I mean, 
it's narrative nonfiction. 

299
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:19,720
So it's blending storytelling 
with data. 

300
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,920
I mean, this is what all the 
research and science 

301
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,120
communication says is, is the 
best way to reach people. 

302
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,320
Because if you make a really 
technical scientific book, good,

303
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,160
we should have those too. 
But the people that are reading 

304
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,480
that already have the 
foundational knowledge and 

305
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,480
they're coming to that, but 
because they they don't need 

306
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,160
convincing and they have that 
information. 

307
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,800
And, you know, to me, one of the
biggest issues is that if you 

308
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,920
look at polls, like across the 
world, it's women that don't 

309
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,000
support nuclear and men do like 
overwhelmingly so. 

310
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,880
And I think that came from a 
movement that demonized nuclear 

311
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,760
technology as like, masculine. 
And there's literally, you know,

312
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,760
Helen Caldecott and other 
environmental activists who very

313
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,840
popular before I was born, even 
giving speeches saying it's nail

314
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,640
energy, it's masculine, it's 
dangerous. 

315
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:05,720
That's why it's linked to 
weapons. 

316
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,280
And I think that kind of did get
into the psyche of a lot of 

317
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,240
women. 
And I think that's really 

318
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,960
damaging. 
So I wanted to write something 

319
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,080
that like, yeah, my female 
friends who would not read a 

320
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,960
scientific book or a textbook 
about nuclear, absolutely not, 

321
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,360
would read, not because I wrote 
it, but because it's telling a 

322
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,520
story. 
And for them, obviously, it adds

323
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,280
more of an element because they 
know me as well. 

324
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,360
But from the feedback I've got, 
you know, it's similar to what 

325
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,360
you said, like it's making 
people think about things that 

326
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,120
we just haven't quite kind of 
thought about from this angle 

327
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:38,560
before. 
What I found really interesting 

328
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,600
with that, I always thought it 
was a little bit of a failure of

329
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:42,960
like, why isn't industry doing 
this? 

330
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:43,800
Why aren't more people doing 
this? 

331
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,160
But actually there are 
roadblocks the whole way because

332
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,400
like I said, the publishers 
themselves didn't see the value.

333
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,400
And I think part of that was 
because they still see nuclear 

334
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,400
as controversial. 
They would rather just have a 

335
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,320
scientific book because that's 
easy to defend. 

336
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,720
If you put opinion in there, 
then they don't know, they're 

337
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,200
not experts, they don't know if 
they should back that or not. 

338
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,840
And so it's safer not to. 
And that again, can be quite 

339
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,800
dangerous because you've got, 
you've only really got the big 5

340
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,280
publishers and then you've got 
everybody else. 

341
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,200
I went with an independent 
publisher and it's really hard 

342
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,440
actually to compete with the 
bigger titles because, you know,

343
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,480
even just, I tried to do it. 
There was a lady on X who 

344
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,760
tweeted me and said I came in to
buy your book and it was on the 

345
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,280
3rd floor, Waterstones. 
And why is it on the third floor

346
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:23,960
when you live here and it should
be blah, blah. 

347
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,440
And I said, look, I've contacted
Waterstones and they don't want 

348
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,520
to have a local author in the 
store doing book signings. 

349
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,840
Like, I'll try, I can try again.
But if you're not part of the 

350
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,600
Big 5. 
And she said, but couldn't they 

351
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,160
put it on one of the store? 
You know, where you walk in and 

352
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,520
there's like books everywhere. 
And I said, no, you have to pay 

353
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,560
loads of money, loads of money. 
I'm talking 10s of thousands of 

354
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,200
pounds to be on that. 
Small publishers can't compete 

355
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,200
anyway. 
But I think it was a shame 

356
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,480
because I feel like there's a 
bigger story here that needs to 

357
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,200
be told, whether it's me or 
someone else telling it. 

358
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,360
And I feel like those stories, 
probably people have tried 

359
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,480
before and they're just not 
breaking through even now 

360
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,119
because, you know, a lot of 
people still aren't really up to

361
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:05,640
date with like the nuclear 
conversation. 

362
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,000
So they're still thinking, oh, 
no, this is still kind of, we 

363
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,200
don't touch this unless it's 
just purely science. 

364
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,480
I think we almost have too much 
of the purely science, right? 

365
00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:17,640
I think we've had so much 
emphasis on science and 

366
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:19,440
technology. 
We've forgotten the role of the 

367
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,000
humanities. 
You know, we process everything 

368
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,680
with our feelings. 
Even if we learn to be rational,

369
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,480
we learn to spot cognitive 
biases and we learn to overcome 

370
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,400
fears and tribal thinking and 
all of that, we still, first of 

371
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,320
all, process things emotionally.
And that's probably never going 

372
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,680
to change. 
So I think really we desperately

373
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,960
need more of the storytelling, 
but it's tough out there. 

374
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:42,840
It sure is. 
And that's been one of the 

375
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,280
things that I've been kind of 
like, you know, preaching for 

376
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,600
the rooftops of of, of, you 
know, letting nuclear down. 

377
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,840
Like you, we need to spend more 
money on the storytelling and 

378
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,320
and, you know, it's, it's slow 
going because it is kind of 

379
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,640
uncomfortable and unfamiliar for
for industry. 

380
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,440
And I think from from this book,
is there a story that you feel 

381
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,840
like, you know, maybe it's not 
your favorite, but like just you

382
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,000
think kind of really synthesizes
your your whole book? 

383
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,680
Is there a story that you're 
like, you know, this wouldn't be

384
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,360
one that I would, I would, you 
know, start people off with? 

385
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,760
I mean, look, I obviously have a
soft spot for the Saucepan 

386
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:21,320
story, but in terms of what's 
important, I think kind of the 

387
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,880
chapter approaching 
communication differently, I 

388
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:25,880
think that's where we're at in 
the conversation now. 

389
00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:29,680
A lot of people do now either 
support nuclear or they kind of 

390
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,280
lean towards it. 
Are we leading people towards 

391
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,560
thinking about these issues in 
the way that I'm thinking about 

392
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,080
scarcity? 
And I mean that it does link 

393
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,200
back to the Sauceman story 
because I'm talking about my 

394
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,000
mother being able to afford 
things with her own money, being

395
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,240
able to have a job and to have 
time because she's not washing 

396
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,560
clothes by hand all day. 
And her daughters aren't having 

397
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,880
to go and collect fuel all day 
so that you can burn it to cook 

398
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,120
on your stove and all of that 
stuff. 

399
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,480
But yeah, that, you know, I 
think if there's one story, then

400
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,960
it's the Sauceman story. 
But if it's what's most 

401
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,160
important, then it's the 
conversation about how do we 

402
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,120
humanize this and talk about 
this differently? 

403
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:14,240
Because I honestly think we're 
behind on that and not just in 

404
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,880
nuclear and everything. 
Look, we've got measles 

405
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,480
outbreaks here because it's 
happening like it's happening 

406
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,160
with vaccines. 
It's happening in every every 

407
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,720
bit of science that you look at 
every development, there is 

408
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,240
pushback and it's significant 
pushback. 

409
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,680
And that is not getting enough 
attention. 

410
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,960
And, and that's where industry 
or whatever advocates can play a

411
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,000
role in nuclear specifically. 
And I feel like if you're 

412
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,040
chipping away at that, and even 
if it's in one area, it benefits

413
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,280
all the areas because you're 
teaching critical thinking, 

414
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,960
you're getting people to be 
aware of their common biases and

415
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:47,880
you're getting people to think 
about things differently. 

416
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,680
And what I've tried to do is 
just try and get people to think

417
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,800
about scarcity versus abundance 
differently because I've seen, 

418
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,320
you know, there's like an 
abundance movement now, which is

419
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:57,880
great. 
You know, all for kind of build,

420
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,240
build the homes, build the clean
tech and all that stuff. 

421
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,080
But it's funny that they talk 
about. 

422
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,040
Aiming for abundance rather than
recognizing that we already live

423
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,520
with abundance. 
If you can go and buy any number

424
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,720
of appliances that you like and 
plug them in and power them, you

425
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,080
already live in abundance. 
Yeah, the people in abundance 

426
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,560
are the ones that are loudest 
about scarcity. 

427
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,000
Yeah, yeah. 
And I think, I think this is 

428
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,200
where you know the sauce mantor.
I think I was definitely. 

429
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,640
I teared up when I when I was. 
Reading it, people said that to 

430
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:28,240
me. 
Yeah, I was. 

431
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,880
Like Oh my God, this is. 
Really. 

432
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:31,880
I have it right here. 
Hold on. 

433
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,360
Yeah. 
Look at this. 

434
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,200
I got it out because I wanted to
take a picture. 

435
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,360
It's so big, Yeah, Yeah, OK, 
yeah. 

436
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,480
And then I think it's kind of 
like this idea, you know, that 

437
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:49,160
we can start from a place that 
seems really unimaginable that 

438
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,720
we would ever get to or obtain 
that level of abundance. 

439
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,520
You know, you didn't think that 
you were ever going to have this

440
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,360
thing, and now you have it. 
And it really shifts your entire

441
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:00,760
worldview. 
And I think that's almost where 

442
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,520
we are kind of as a Society of 
like, we're like, hey, this is 

443
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:05,880
what the planet's doing right 
now. 

444
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,920
It seems very impossible. 
And I think the ability for us 

445
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,560
to go to like, Oh my gosh, it's 
all doom and gloom to like, 

446
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,360
actually like, oh, wait, made a 
minute. 

447
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:17,160
We can power these things and we
can have a clean earth and we 

448
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,920
can have healthy soil. 
It's such a big narrative shift.

449
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,840
But to your point of, you know, 
across the board, we're seeing 

450
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,800
this pushback on science. 
I remember in our previous 

451
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,520
conversation you mentioned doing
TikTok and kind of just like a 

452
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,560
deep dive on why waterfalls are,
you know, not like deep state 

453
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,840
conspiracy theories like like 
the. 

454
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,240
Yeah, I thought this video, it's
not even the video itself, like 

455
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,520
this video went viral, but 
sometimes things go viral 

456
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,320
because they're bad. 
So this video of this guy, 

457
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,920
American guy with a waterfall 
behind him, saying no one knows 

458
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,240
how this works, no one knows how
the wall is replaced. 

459
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,760
I looked at the comments because
I thought they'd be pushed back 

460
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,800
and there was so many people 
agreeing with him. 

461
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,320
And I didn't even know that that
was a conspiracy because we all 

462
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,600
learned this at school. 
Like I might have even learned 

463
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,920
it at primary school, you know, 
like really early on. 

464
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,760
So I did a response just because
I thought all of those people in

465
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,760
the comments, some of the people
were just asking. 

466
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,200
They were like, oh, I think 
there is a theory, but what, you

467
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,680
know, they didn't remember, or 
maybe they weren't taught it. 

468
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,200
To be fair, maybe they weren't 
taught it. 

469
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,240
And so I did this response and 
it went instantly viral. 

470
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,280
But actually it was quite good 
because I didn't get too much 

471
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,840
pushback in the comments there. 
Some there were some those 

472
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,680
deniers are deniers, 100% 
motorcycle deniers. 

473
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,520
But there were plenty of people 
who were like, thanks for 

474
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:35,720
explaining this. 
It makes sense. 

475
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,480
Thanks. 
I now remember that I did learn 

476
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,600
this or whatever. 
So some of it, you know, you do 

477
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,280
have to give people the benefit 
of the doubt, but it's also a 

478
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,960
little bit worrying that because
they couldn't remember, they 

479
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,720
didn't have like a solid 
position on it. 

480
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:52,320
They were just led by this guy 
making this 10 second video 

481
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,640
saying we don't, we definitely 
don't know. 

482
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,680
We don't know. 
It's all it's all up in the air.

483
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,480
And you know, these are really 
basic things that you don't have

484
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,840
to know and you don't have to be
able to explain the water cycle 

485
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,440
to someone. 
But if you even if you can't, I 

486
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,600
think you do have to have a 
certain amount of like faith in 

487
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,160
humanity and trust in science 
and you don't have to trust 

488
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,120
science, right, Right. 
We should definitely have debate

489
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:18,160
within science, but within 
certain parameters, right? 

490
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:19,840
I mean, to me that's like Flat 
Earth. 

491
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,240
There are lots of people, I'm 
talking thousands of people, who

492
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,920
actually genuinely believe that 
we don't like. 

493
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,840
It's like magic. 
It's like magic we don't know. 

494
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,800
We don't know how the water 
cycle, we don't know how 

495
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,480
waterfalls work. 
I met a gentleman who believes 

496
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,200
that the earth is flat and it 
really changed my I was like, 

497
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,840
OK, how do I move forward in 
this conversation? 

498
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,840
But first, a message from our 
sponsors. 

499
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,560
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500
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501
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507
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508
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509
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hiring for it, head over to 
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510
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512
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salary, see the click up form in
our show notes. 

513
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:40,320
Now back to the show. 
And I think what's really 

514
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,560
fascinating is these are things 
that you can look up how does 

515
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,120
the water cycle work that you 
can literally type into Google 

516
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:52,520
and get like a pretty clear 
explanation with the visual key 

517
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,480
cues like we can see. 
I think with nuclear it's a 

518
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,920
little bit more challenging 
because it's so unfamiliar and 

519
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:02,320
we really don't like, if you 
ask, you know, a random person, 

520
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,800
hey, picture a nuclear reactor. 
Or even a power plant. 

521
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,760
They think it's cooling. 
And even now I'll see articles 

522
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,680
from like quite respectable 
institutions. 

523
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,600
And it's something about 
nuclear. 

524
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,480
And the picture is cooling 
towers. 

525
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:16,720
The picture they've used is 
cooling towers. 

526
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,840
So it's just reinforcing. 
And I guess they're using it 

527
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,920
because it's familiar to people,
but then people are seeing them 

528
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,200
and there is an issue there. 
But actually, I did another 

529
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,080
video that went viral, which was
on how the cooling towers from 

530
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,920
nuclear power plants are just 
emitting water vapor. 

531
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,960
Because, again, I think there 
was a study on this in the US 

532
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,280
and I can't remember the 
numbers, but a lot of people 

533
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,960
there do believe that it's 
polluting, that it's like it's 

534
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,680
Yeah, they do. 
I can't remember what the 

535
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:40,800
numbers were, but it's quite 
high. 

536
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,680
People believe that these are 
polluting, and it's because 

537
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,720
they're associating it with coal
because they also associate the 

538
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,520
cooling powers with coal and not
like, you know, the nuclear kind

539
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,480
of Dome, whatever shape the 
building is. 

540
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:52,840
Yeah. 
So that's another thing. 

541
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,880
That was only a really short 
kind of 22nd video, but that 

542
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,280
went viral, too. 
But again, it was a lot of 

543
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:57,760
people saying, oh, thanks, they 
didn't know. 

544
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,480
And someone actually pointed me 
towards an article in a 

545
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,080
mainstream paper that I went and
looked at because they published

546
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,360
an article about nuclear. 
It's quite negative, but like, 

547
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:09,080
subtly negative. 
And the image they used, which 

548
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,440
was of cooling towers, they had 
darkened the water vapor to make

549
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,880
it look like smoke. 
I did see them get some pushback

550
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,760
on this on social media as well.
I can't remember who it was, but

551
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:19,640
it's too big. 
Quit us. 

552
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,040
And it's those images that stay 
with you. 

553
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,200
And I do think there's something
about images like you touched on

554
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,680
there. 
And that's why I really value 

555
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:27,720
doing the Tik Toks. 
I know a lot of people don't 

556
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,480
like the kind of short form 
video context, getting a lot of 

557
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,440
pushback. 
But actually there's something 

558
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,160
about being able to see the 
thing and make the association. 

559
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,800
Like, we are very visual 
creatures where we love watching

560
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,920
TV and going to the cinema and 
whatever, talking face to face 

561
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,800
instead of a phone call. 
And because I also did one on 

562
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,040
deep geological repositories. 
And to be honest, again, this 

563
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,520
was like, this was a lazy video.
I sat on the sofa, it's blurry, 

564
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,960
the lighting's not good. 
It was just something in the 

565
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,520
evening I saw some people 
posting about, well, what about 

566
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,120
long term story? 
What about long term? 

567
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:59,680
And I thought, oh, I should just
do a quick thing on this. 

568
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,040
And I put in some pictures 
showing on Cologne in Finland 

569
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,440
and that had 1.4 million people 
watch that 1.4 million views. 

570
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,040
I did not expect that one to 
blow up just because like I was 

571
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,880
fuzzy. 
But what I think was important 

572
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,680
there was they could go and 
Google that or put it into their

573
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,360
whatever search engine. 
They could look at it on 

574
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,960
Wikipedia, but they're not going
to get the kind of personal 

575
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,920
element, which is somebody's 
talking to them about it. 

576
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:25,320
It's like your friend talking to
you. 

577
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,640
And just the sheer number of 
visuals. 

578
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,400
I could just pack this video 
with all these different 

579
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,280
pictures because I think you 
can't just put one picture 

580
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,800
because it doesn't really. 
And then they'll say, oh, well, 

581
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,720
how did they get the casks 
underground? 

582
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,640
They also had that in there. 
I had all the kind of processes 

583
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,520
because I thought, like you're 
saying, most people don't know 

584
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,960
what a reactor looks like. 
So you kind of need. 

585
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,080
And then even if you put that, 
there's like, wait, they still 

586
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,440
think that the power plant is 
just cooling towers. 

587
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,280
So you need to add that and you 
need to maybe say there's a 

588
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,040
control room and like add stuff.
There's so much potential 

589
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,760
actually. 
And I have tried and failed to 

590
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,600
get the industry to capitalize 
on this with moving to short 

591
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,240
form content or even not. 
You could do long form content 

592
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,920
like on YouTube, but doing 
visual like video content, not 

593
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,200
only because all the platforms 
are using it and it's getting 

594
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,880
very popular, but also because 
if it's not on there, people 

595
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,680
don't search it. 
So maybe, yeah, for you and I, 

596
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,160
we would just go and search 
something and it's, I use Google

597
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,640
as a verb, right? 
Younger generations aren't doing

598
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:17,000
that. 
Gen. 

599
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,120
Z doesn't do that. 
They in fact on TikTok, when you

600
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:23,120
watch a video like that video of
that guy who was saying the 

601
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:24,880
water, you know, how does the 
waterfall work? 

602
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,960
Nobody knows. 
When you click on the comments, 

603
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,040
it comes up with like a blue 
search tick and that that the 

604
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,280
blue search phrase is what most 
of the people watching the video

605
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,800
are searching. 
So when you click that it takes 

606
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,960
it's like a instead of wiki. 
Instead of going to Wikipedia or

607
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,440
searching online, you click that
and it takes you to the 

608
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:45,920
selection of videos that answer 
that question. 

609
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,920
So that's what happened, is 
people clicking it and they were

610
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,240
getting my video because I was 
the only one kind of challenging

611
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,320
and pushing back. 
More people did after that, but 

612
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,760
mine was cut 1st. 
And yeah, I actually think 

613
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,840
that's a really good model, 
which I know people don't like. 

614
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,800
They kind of said, well, it 
would be better if you went and 

615
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,560
looked it up online, but it is 
not easy to find information. 

616
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,880
And even now, you know, I know 
the industry's done a good job 

617
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,920
here at least. 
And I know that they're in other

618
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,680
countries where they're getting 
better, I think, and a bit 

619
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,080
bolder with the communication. 
And there's a lot more. 

620
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,360
There's a lot less technical 
information and a lot more kind 

621
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,240
of humanized, I would say. 
But it still requires someone to

622
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,840
know where that website is and 
then go and click on it. 

623
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,840
And maybe we'd like quite a long
spiel. 

624
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,880
Someone they don't know, they're
just not going to. 

625
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,880
And I think it was inevitable 
that that was going to kind of 

626
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,720
peek at one point and then die 
out just because the visual 

627
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,400
communication is so much more 
personal. 

628
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,920
And I think that's really 
helpful because I've been 

629
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,640
studying more of the data side 
of how we take in information 

630
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,640
and the shift to video. 
And even like HBO and Amazon are

631
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,480
like, Oh my gosh, short form 
mini dramas, like vertical mini 

632
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,920
dramas are like taken over. 
Like what are we going to do? 

633
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,120
And I'm like, well, probably 
just shift with the time, just 

634
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,720
like go with the times. 
But I think the other thing I 

635
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,480
find really interesting when I'm
watching your videos is really 

636
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,000
how you've kind of built this 
visual platform, but also kind 

637
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,280
of as a trusted science 
communicator. 

638
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,480
And so I guess my question is, 
like, how did you become a 

639
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,880
trusted science communicator? 
Like, what are the things that 

640
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,040
you prioritize? 
And, you know, is it like not 

641
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,720
using too much jargon or, you 
know, taking the time to 

642
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,960
explain, you know, water cycles,
Like, what does that look like 

643
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:23,680
for you, I think? 
The first thing is you have to 

644
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,640
have a little bit of humility. 
And I say this because I know 

645
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,320
that there are some quite famous
science communicators who will, 

646
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,080
for example, make fun of flat 
earthers. 

647
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,400
And I just think as soon as you 
do that, you lose the potential 

648
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,200
to build the bridge. 
In fact, all it does is it 

649
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,320
pushes the person more into 
their community of deniers. 

650
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,160
So you have to approach it like 
that. 

651
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,000
And what I normally do is I kind
of think out how I want to 

652
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,520
approach it with some bullet 
points. 

653
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,000
And then I always go over it and
think, how would someone who 

654
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,480
isn't me approach? 
This is too technical. 

655
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,120
And you have to be really brutal
about that, right? 

656
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,800
Because you know, in a way, my 
comfort zone is talking about 

657
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,560
science. 
It would be easier for me to 

658
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,680
make long videos on YouTube, 
which many brilliant science 

659
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,880
communicators have done, like 
Carl Hill in the US been 

660
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,440
brilliant. 
And he's done some stuff on 

661
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,480
YouTube as well, like long 
content, just highly factual or 

662
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,760
highly technical. 
And that I know that that would 

663
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,440
appeal to lots of people because
only a few people have are able 

664
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:20,960
to do it. 
And those who leverage their 

665
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,640
skills have done really well. 
They make entire careers out of 

666
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,800
YouTube. 
But there's no challenge in that

667
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,720
because again, the people 
watching it mostly already agree

668
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,400
or mostly already know that they
already have some they already 

669
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,480
believe in, You know, that we 
should accept science. 

670
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,000
They're not flat earthers. 
They're not motorcycle deniers. 

671
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,040
They already know enough about 
technical jargon and stuff to 

672
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,560
keep up. 
It's not going to go above their

673
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,080
heads. 
Now, if I think about when I'm 

674
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,680
on school run and the parents 
that I talk to on the school 

675
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:57,320
run, that is how I simplify my 
approach to can I explain it to 

676
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,080
this person on the school run? 
If not, it's too technical. 

677
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,400
I need to dial this back. 
And that is the way that I 

678
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,080
approach. 
And I think that it's not a 

679
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,280
coincidence that the one that I 
just wrote on the sofa, I mean, 

680
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,720
if you go and look it up, it's 
fuzzy. 

681
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,960
I would say it's not high 
quality content, but in terms of

682
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,280
information, it is because 
nobody else anywhere ever has 

683
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,880
explained this issue to somebody
in this way. 

684
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,920
And even if you go on to some of
the websites about deep 

685
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,360
geological repositories, even 
like the wiki page, really 

686
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,440
technical people just want to 
know, like, is it safe? 

687
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,400
Does it work? 
Should we do it or not? 

688
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,400
That's what they want to know. 
Is it harm me or am I OK? 

689
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,440
OK, well that's good. 
I might want to learn a bit more

690
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,840
about it, but not a lot more. 
They don't want to watch 10 

691
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,560
minutes of it unless they're 
already the nerds, right? 

692
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,040
So just give a minute or two. 
I think that video is like a 

693
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,960
minute and 1/2 or something and 
it is challenging. 

694
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,680
I find it more challenging to 
condense it and more easy as you

695
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,040
could tell from how long I talk.
Much easier to do a long form 

696
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:54,440
video. 
But I just again, it's moving 

697
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,280
with the times. 
If people aren't spending the 

698
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,000
time watching those all the way 
through, they're not getting the

699
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,760
key points and they just want 
the key points. 

700
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,520
And actually I think there is 
benefit to that. 

701
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,440
I think there's a lot of push 
back on the short form content 

702
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,160
for people who aren't kind of 
used to it. 

703
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,400
But actually often what will 
happen, as I said, they'll watch

704
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,320
it. 
If they want to know more, go 

705
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,320
and click that. 
The issue is there's a deficit 

706
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,640
of information. 
So you might then say, right, I 

707
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,560
want to know about uncle. 
I click on that. 

708
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,600
Uncle is not posting on there. 
How are you going to find out? 

709
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,800
You're not going to go and look 
up their website and go and see 

710
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,480
what this company is doing. 
You're not going to do it. 

711
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,680
You're not going to do it. 
So unless the faces are there 

712
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,800
and the conversation's there, 
it's not happening. 

713
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,320
And this is millions of people, 
right? 

714
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,240
It's not a niche fringe thing. 
It's millions of people are 

715
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,880
having this conversation and 
certain actors are choosing not 

716
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,400
to be part of it, which I 
honestly I find a little bit 

717
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,880
shocking at this point. 
Yeah, for sure. 

718
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,480
And I think like you synthesize 
a couple different things, like 

719
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,280
1, you know, the humility piece 
of like, you know, when there is

720
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,200
a belief that doesn't 
necessarily align with the 

721
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,160
science, like not being like, 
wow, you're stupid. 

722
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,720
But then also taking that time 
to like simplify the main points

723
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,920
and the key points that I feel 
like as a communicator, and it's

724
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,440
specifically as a science 
communicator, I think that's 

725
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,960
something that a lot of 
engineers really, really 

726
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,600
struggle with. 
Because they. 

727
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,760
Wanna tell the whole thing and 
they wanna get down into all the

728
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,520
data pool this calculation. 
In the when I started out in the

729
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,120
advocacy, I came from the other 
world, so I didn't know anyone, 

730
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:25,960
couldn't name a single person in
industry came from the other 

731
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,679
world, from the 
environmentalists who were 

732
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:30,800
against it. 
The first thing I found was I'm 

733
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,719
getting this popularised like 
I'm getting news articles partly

734
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,159
again, I had contacts, I had an 
established career already as a 

735
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,280
writer. 
So I was writing articles, I was

736
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,600
getting stuff out and then have 
people push back, engineers and 

737
00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:45,440
nuclear professionals pushing 
back and emailing me. 

738
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,120
You shouldn't be saying phrases 
you shouldn't be reducing 

739
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,239
nuclear to. 
Well, I remember specifically 

740
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,639
one person saying it was because
I was using Nuclear Saves Lives,

741
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:56,760
which actually really took off 
and a lot of people started 

742
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,400
using it. 
And he felt, he sent me this 

743
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,560
really long e-mail. 
He felt that it was disingenuous

744
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,680
and we shouldn't be reducing 
science to slogans. 

745
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,600
It's quite off putting to get 
that when you're already kind of

746
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,720
like getting a lot of pushback 
from the anti makers. 

747
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,400
And that one instance just kind 
of alerted me to, and this is 

748
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,760
where the problem is, right? 
The problem isn't that people, 

749
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,000
the problem isn't that people 
are stupid and they can't change

750
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,560
their minds about stuff. 
The problem is that the 

751
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,440
information has never been 
presented in the right way. 

752
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,960
And that's a problem that falls 
on us, I think, either as 

753
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,200
communicators or as 
professionals, because you have 

754
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,440
to be able to boil point down 
just to simplify it down. 

755
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,880
You do have to. 
And yeah, all right, you could 

756
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,360
argue with how accurate is this 
phrase or how inaccurate is it? 

757
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,600
But the inaccurate phrases about
nuclear is what made it so 

758
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,160
unpopular for so long. 
And I had to, the way I saw it 

759
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,280
was I need to rewrite those 
phrases. 

760
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:54,160
You know, we did this an 
Extinction Rebellion, 

761
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,120
popularized Net 0, popularized 
climate crisis, climate 

762
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,320
emergency. 
We came up with all this stuff 

763
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,920
just sitting in a room. 
So it was kind of bringing like 

764
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,560
an activist slant to it. 
But actually that was what was 

765
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,200
missing because the activists 
are very, very good 

766
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,280
communicators. 
And let's face it, they're all 

767
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,240
humanities people, you know, So 
they're really good. 

768
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,280
And they, and they, because 
they're those, they're like the 

769
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,080
literature nerds, they're on 
that side. 

770
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,000
I think they have better theory 
of mind, like they're better at 

771
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,040
thinking, how do I get in that 
person's shoes and see that 

772
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,200
perspective? 
Where do I push the trigger 

773
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:26,360
points? 
And then they push them and it 

774
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,760
works. 
And it worked on me for a long 

775
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,000
time. 
I was very fearful about waste. 

776
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:33,640
Yeah. 
And that's a really helpful kind

777
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,120
of like process of like 
understanding, you know, 

778
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,320
actually almost who's gifted at 
what. 

779
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,680
And so looking at like, for our 
scientists, our engineers, 

780
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,240
people who are kind of more 
deeply in the jargon, would you 

781
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:48,880
have pieces of advice for them? 
I literally had a friend the 

782
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,440
other day who was like, I like 
doing the theory and like, I 

783
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,200
like doing theoretical stuff. 
And I don't think I should be 

784
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,840
having to explain this to like, 
the population. 

785
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,120
I'm like actually. 
Quite a rare skill. 

786
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,040
Think about the science 
communicators that you could 

787
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,080
probably listen on one hand, 
like Carl Sagan, or if not the 

788
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,520
first such communicator, Richard
Fineman. 

789
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,120
He was still very technical, but
he did popularize certain things

790
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,200
within his talks and texts and 
books. 

791
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,840
And Neil Degrassi, Tyson, Brian 
Cox, and how many of them are 

792
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,280
women? 
There's not many out there. 

793
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,720
I think that is because it's 
difficult to have both skill 

794
00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:22,720
sets. 
I think almost the opposite 

795
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:25,920
skill sets. 
When you're a scientist, you're 

796
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,080
really honing in like you're 
narrowing down, right? 

797
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,160
If you do some like a PhD, 
you're narrowing, narrowing, 

798
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,080
getting, you know, more and more
into the detail. 

799
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,800
If you're trying to talk to 
large groups of people, it's the

800
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,200
opposite. 
You've got to broaden right out.

801
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:40,600
You've got to have good theory 
of mind. 

802
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,320
You've got to be able to 
consider the way people are 

803
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,960
thinking. 
And it's almost the opposite. 

804
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,920
And so I think it's quite rare 
to get someone that has both 

805
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,680
skill sets and and you know, you
asked how I built my platform. 

806
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,760
I think to be honest, I didn't 
have any kind of strategy. 

807
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,360
I just went in there and was 
like, well, I'm going to write 

808
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,440
do something like waterfall 
thing because I don't like that.

809
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,200
I'm going to do something about 
deep geological project because 

810
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,240
there's literally nothing else 
on this platform about that. 

811
00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:07,720
So I'm going to fill that niche.
And I did it more because I felt

812
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,680
like this is easy because people
are going to watch and they're 

813
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,720
going to get information before 
also because a lot of them are 

814
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:17,800
younger before they hear 
misinformation about it, which 

815
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:18,920
is actually a really good 
tactic. 

816
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,840
It's called pre bunking. 
We kind of can go through some 

817
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:26,080
of the myths that you might hear
later and it helps protect you 

818
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:27,560
from it. 
It's like an immune form of 

819
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,600
immunization. 
Prebunking anyway, it's term use

820
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,080
of misinformation theories. 
But for me, you know, it was a 

821
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,000
no brainer. 
Just go in and start doing that.

822
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,800
But because I have both skill 
sets, it's not difficult for me.

823
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,200
I don't actually spend a lot of 
time. 

824
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,360
Someone asked me the other day, 
like how are you putting out a 

825
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,160
video every day? 
It doesn't take me very long 

826
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,880
unless it's a new topic that I 
know nothing about. 

827
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,560
But I tend not to go into those 
topics actually. 

828
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,440
And occasionally if it's 
something really in depth and I 

829
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:53,960
just don't know, I'll send it to
someone and say, could you 

830
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,640
respond because this is getting 
it. 

831
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:57,600
You know, I saw something on 
this on glyphosate and I said 

832
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,800
your this is your area and you 
should go, yeah, I could respond

833
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,080
to it. 
But I just thought I tend to 

834
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,360
stick to the things that I've 
been talking about for a long 

835
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,800
time because I can condense 
information because I've been 

836
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,680
thinking about it for so long. 
I can answer in simpler terms. 

837
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,880
It's much more difficult when 
it's something that I haven't 

838
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,320
thought about before. 
I don't know a lot about. 

839
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,440
I can go away and do it, but 
there are so many topics and to 

840
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,160
be honest, a lot of what I do is
fight misinformation because 

841
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,280
there are many videos like the 
Waterfall one that go viral for 

842
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,160
the wrong reasons and I'll just 
jump in there. 

843
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,360
I just did one on SIDS because I
saw some stuff about sudden 

844
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,400
infant death syndrome and I 
thought actually this could be 

845
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,000
quite dangerous. 
Dangerous and I'd better address

846
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,760
like yes, they are saying that a
study said this thing, but it 

847
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,880
was an observational study. 
It's not something that's 

848
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,400
recommended in medical practice 
because it's not supported. 

849
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,200
So that person actually didn't 
mean any harm. 

850
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,360
They saw a study and they didn't
know. 

851
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,040
You've got to look at like 
broadly, like how does it fit 

852
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,480
into the the literature? 
Like do a literature review. 

853
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,520
Other studies might have 
disproved it, right? 

854
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,560
It might be an old study. 
You might have a small sample 

855
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,040
size, like you can't just read 
1. 

856
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,360
You've got to understand like 
the and this person didn't. 

857
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,200
So they've made this one video 
and it went viral. 

858
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,360
It's kind of giving people. 
I'm not the best information. 

859
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,880
I've responded to that because 
again, I see a value there and 

860
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,320
to me, like what Two things 
drive me? 

861
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,560
One is like, is there value in 
this? 

862
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,000
Is this going to help people? 
Like I care about that. 

863
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,720
Then I get an intrinsic value. 
I'm happy to do it. 

864
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:26,920
I've got the energy and time for
it. 

865
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,160
And the other thing is, you 
know, I think we talked about 

866
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,160
this before, but I have got to 
the point now where I'm 

867
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,520
comfortable being uncomfortable.
And not everybody gets to that 

868
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,920
point now, right? 
Because I have I should use that

869
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,600
because, again, it puts me in a 
rare position. 

870
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:44,520
And that's also what you've got 
with all the main kind of the 

871
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,320
most visible science 
communicators. 

872
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,000
They're comfortable pushing back
on things and taking expertise 

873
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,960
but bringing it to a broad 
audience. 

874
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,800
So yeah, I think people who 
don't have that skill set 

875
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,360
shouldn't be forced, certainly 
shouldn't be made, you know, to 

876
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,280
do the communication. 
But if they want to, I think 

877
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:03,960
there should be opportunities 
for training. 

878
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,440
And I have done some of this in 
my consultancy would have, we've

879
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,720
done workshops with scientists 
on how they could present their 

880
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:12,400
data better and kind of looking 
at ways that things might be 

881
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,240
misconstrued if you use certain 
phrases. 

882
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,920
Many examples of this happening 
even in like official 

883
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,280
institution press releases where
they've put it out and it looks 

884
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,600
good to them, but it looks 
different to a journalist who 

885
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,760
picks out a certain phrase about
something negative. 

886
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,080
And that becomes the headline 
everywhere. 

887
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,120
And then you've got two groups 
here and one saying, I don't 

888
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:30,600
understand how that was 
misconstrued. 

889
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,520
And, you know, there's a 
technical lens and then there's 

890
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,680
the human story. 
Yeah. 

891
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,240
Anyway, so I've, I've done some 
of that work with those people, 

892
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:40,560
but it's not, you know, it's 
something that you can, it's 

893
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,480
something I think you can 
develop over time, but it's not 

894
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,880
necessarily skill set that a lot
of people have to begin with. 

895
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,120
I think one benefit I have is 
that I spend a lot of time in 

896
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,520
different communities. 
Like, you know, I've been to 

897
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,040
like Star Trek convention, stuff
like that. 

898
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:55,920
So I've been around those kind 
of nerves as well. 

899
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,040
I read a lot of sci-fi, read a 
lot, generally read non fiction 

900
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,920
fiction. 
So maybe a good theory of mind. 

901
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,720
I have two children, so I'm in 
parenting communities. 

902
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:07,560
So I hear what they're talking 
about, which is just so you 

903
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,240
know, nucleus never mentioned in
there. 

904
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,040
The only time energy's mentioned
is if they're complaining about 

905
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,320
high electricity bills, which is
because they are high. 

906
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,640
And it doesn't go beyond that. 
It's just kind of, oh, it must 

907
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,800
be the government's fault, the 
end of discussion. 

908
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,160
And I sometimes will bring up 
and say, well, it would be good 

909
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:25,640
if we did this or that, wouldn't
we? 

910
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,600
Oh, I don't know anything about 
that, you know, and then I, I 

911
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,440
usually, I'll have the 
conversation. 

912
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,360
Oh, wow. 
Actually cheaper prices 

913
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,080
correlate with having good, 
reliable, stable nuclear 

914
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,640
reactors anyway. 
And practicing that and being 

915
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,800
around those communities, I 
think is of immense benefit to 

916
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,480
like, how you think about 
processing and simplifying 

917
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,520
information. 
Like just because you and I 

918
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,360
might have a high technical 
knowledge, probably not where 

919
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,360
most people are and probably not
what they need to know. 

920
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,280
And you might feel, I think a 
lot this is a thing like between

921
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:55,800
kind of engineers and youth 
professionals. 

922
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,760
A lot of people like kind of pat
each other on the back. 

923
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,400
Like you wrote a really good 
piece, you know, so technical 

924
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,240
and I'll look at it and I'll be 
like, yeah, this is great. 

925
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,280
But if I can't send that to one 
of the people parents I see on 

926
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,560
the school run and have them 
read it and understand it, then 

927
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,680
who is it aimed at? 
Like what's your aim there? 

928
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,360
Yeah. 
What's the purpose of creating 

929
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:15,560
that? 
Is it just so you can pat each 

930
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,960
other on the back? 
I've actually suffered the 

931
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,200
consequences of pushing back on 
that as well. 

932
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:24,320
Yeah, the academic silos. 
And I think that's one of those 

933
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,160
things that it feels good when 
you're talking to somebody and 

934
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:28,960
they know exactly what you're 
talking about and you're like, 

935
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:30,400
oh, we're vibing, we're really 
cool. 

936
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,280
But it's like, yeah, because you
have a PhD in nuclear and they 

937
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:34,560
haven't. 
Been I have a good example of 

938
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,640
this that I was invited to do a 
round table at Westminster where

939
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,760
you get a bunch of people in the
room and they talk for an hour 

940
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,240
and it gets kind of recorded and
then written up and it goes to 

941
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,160
of the government. 
So this was on nuclear and you 

942
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,360
don't get a lot of time to talk 
a lot of people in the room and 

943
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:48,520
stuff. 
So I made my point. 

944
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:51,600
There was someone in the room 
who's got a PhD nuclear 

945
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:56,280
professional and he said the 
solution to communication. 

946
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:57,960
So I was there to talk about 
communication. 

947
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:59,840
I was the only non industry 
person there. 

948
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,040
He said the solution is to teach
nuclear in primary schools 

949
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:06,640
because I didn't get a lot of 
time to talk. 

950
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,720
I kind of was reserving the 
times that I could talk for like

951
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:13,440
the points I really wanted to 
get across, but I was blown away

952
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,120
that this could be a 
recommendation. 

953
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:17,880
This is like the first thing 
they teach you in science 

954
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,080
communication not to do because 
it's the idea that if I just 

955
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,440
throw more facts and they'll 
speak and that's not come up, 

956
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,400
that's not the issue. 
We all go through the same 

957
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,640
education system. 
You could argue for teaching 

958
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,400
more critical thinking skills 
because that can then help you 

959
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,520
to identify the misinformation 
around things like nuclear 

960
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:35,960
technology. 
Absolutely, we should be doing 

961
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,080
that. 
But teaching nuclear science to 

962
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,680
kids, I mean, A, that could 
backfire because it would be 

963
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,360
seen as like an indoctrination, 
I think. 

964
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:47,280
But B, it's I would really be 
disappointed if efforts were 

965
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,000
made to make that happen. 
Every in the room is agreeing. 

966
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,240
It was just me sitting there 
thinking this is like you're an 

967
00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:55,280
expert in nuclear. 
Brilliant. 

968
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,040
I will listen to you on all 
those topics and I will trust 

969
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,280
you, but please listen to the 
communication experts because 

970
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,400
that's what I've studied. 
And I can tell you right now 

971
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,680
that you're wrong. 
Throwing more like facts at 

972
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,520
children is not going to make 
them pro nuclear producing them 

973
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,600
to real people who work in the 
industry. 

974
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,960
Yeah, sure, you could say that, 
but that's not kind of what the 

975
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,320
argument was. 
And even then, like it's 

976
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,040
complicated, just like nuclear 
technology is complicated and 

977
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,080
you have to go away and study it
to know the the real details. 

978
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,600
Will be able to build a reactor 
or whatever will operate in a 

979
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,040
control room. 
Communication is almost more 

980
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,160
complicated because you can 
follow a set of rules and facts 

981
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:41,720
there, but being able to appeal 
to people and build bridges and 

982
00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:45,240
change minds and all of that 
stuff is more complicated. 

983
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:46,680
There's one thing we're saying, 
science communication. 

984
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,720
There's no general public. 
Like we never use that term. 

985
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:50,920
It's publics. 
Every group is a different 

986
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,760
publics and it all depends who 
you're talking about. 

987
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,120
So you could have one strategy 
for a specific age group in 

988
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,360
primary school. 
That's what I would say. 

989
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,680
And then a different one for 
like when they're older and then

990
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,480
a different one when they're in 
secondary school. 

991
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,640
But it would not be increase the
science. 

992
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,240
I don't think that's the issue. 
I don't think increasing science

993
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:14,320
teaching, he's going to improve 
the literacy, science literacy, 

994
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,080
in fact, we have quite a lot of 
good science programs already, 

995
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:18,840
is much better now than it was 
when I was in school. 

996
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,400
I know from what my daughter's 
come from talking about, they're

997
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,000
pretty good. 
They're doing well in these 

998
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,200
subjects, so they're getting a 
good understanding of these 

999
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:31,040
topics, but they will still 
watch something and take in the 

1000
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,240
misinformation and believe that 
over what they have learned in 

1001
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:36,320
school. 
I've seen that myself and my 

1002
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,880
role as a parent is to challenge
that and help develop the 

1003
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,160
critical thinking skills. 
But most people aren't doing 

1004
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,080
that. 
Most people are just believing 

1005
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,120
that they see themselves right. 
They watch Chernobyl on HBO and 

1006
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,360
that's their perspective of what
happened. 

1007
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:53,040
And that overwrites sitting in a
classroom being told XY and Z or

1008
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,560
seeing it in a textbook. 
It overwrites it. 

1009
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,320
It's it's we're storytelling 
creatures and we will always be 

1010
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,200
storytelling creatures. 
We always have been. 

1011
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:03,960
The world around us might have 
changed, the way we live might 

1012
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,760
have changed, but those very 
intrinsic qualities have not 

1013
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:11,120
changed. 
And in order to tackle that, we 

1014
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,680
have to we have to get 
comfortable being uncomfortable.

1015
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,480
We have to have the 
conversations about what 

1016
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,960
realistically is going to change
this. 

1017
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,320
And as I say, it's not just 
nuclear technologies, almost 

1018
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,880
every facet of science, almost 
every facet like we're talking 

1019
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,960
about waterfalls. 
I saw someone denying that you 

1020
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,440
need glasses. 
This went viral as well. 

1021
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,280
This was this was actually not 
on TikTok. 

1022
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,560
It was on XI think and they were
saying, you know, they make your

1023
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:34,640
eyes worse. 
You should. 

1024
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,400
You can live without them and 
your eyes will improve. 

1025
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,560
It's what happened to me and 
loads of people jumping into, 

1026
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,840
yeah, it's true. 
My eyes got worse and I've been 

1027
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,520
wearing glasses, so that must be
why. 

1028
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,560
And I just, again, it's 
everywhere. 

1029
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,160
But that's a failure of society.
You, yeah, you can point and 

1030
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,600
laugh at them, but like, when 
your kid gets measles because 

1031
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,600
they're not getting immunized, 
it's not a laughing matter 

1032
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,600
really, is it? 
It's more a case of what are we 

1033
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,480
doing to address this? 
And we have loads of data that 

1034
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,800
tells us how to address it. 
But almost the technical people 

1035
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:11,440
are not the people to, you know,
they can't go away and also 

1036
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,480
study that they're not the 
people to do it. 

1037
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,320
But they do need to have, I 
don't know, departments or 

1038
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,800
whatever they do. 
I mean, look, they, the industry

1039
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:21,280
here does have a communication 
department. 

1040
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,360
But I would again, push back on 
some of the things like, yeah, 

1041
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,320
they're making a new website to 
get people into. 

1042
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,560
OK, great. 
But are you on TikTok? 

1043
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,440
Why you're making stuff on 
Instagram? 

1044
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,360
No, no, we just on LinkedIn and 
we have this website. 

1045
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,680
Then all the people that will 
click on it are the people that 

1046
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,040
are already in your network that
already supporting nuclear. 

1047
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,840
So you know, I don't see, I 
haven't seen that change yet. 

1048
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,720
And if you haven't got to that 
book bit in the book yet, it's 

1049
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:46,960
in there. 
But I actually think that's 

1050
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,120
where the challenge is on us. 
Like, how do we address this 

1051
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,480
rampant misinformation? 
It's just so much of it. 

1052
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,840
It's not because the rise of 
social media, like social media 

1053
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,360
helps spread it more, But in 
this information far predates 

1054
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:00,400
that. 
They've been using it in Roman 

1055
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,720
times. 
Yeah, they used it in Roman 

1056
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:06,160
times, like, put like little 
messages on coins and give out 

1057
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,280
money. 
And then people would, like, get

1058
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,080
convinced by. 
Oh, yeah. 

1059
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:11,640
It says that not to vote for 
this guy. 

1060
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,920
I can't remember what the exact 
example was, but there is one. 

1061
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:15,440
Yeah. 
You know, it's been around for a

1062
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,720
long time. 
But what we haven't kept up with

1063
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:22,080
is is like keeping up with our 
vaccinations against it, like 

1064
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,040
keeping up with our 
immunization, keeping up with 

1065
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,200
defenses. 
And that's completely societal 

1066
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,640
failure. 
Gotcha. 

1067
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,760
Yeah, I think literally I feel 
like the last half of this 

1068
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,280
conversation has been like a 
master class on you of like 

1069
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,000
communications and what works, 
what doesn't work, what we can 

1070
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,560
kind of start shifting our mind 
to as well. 

1071
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,120
Because yeah, I think it is such
an important conversation to be 

1072
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,320
having of when we don't 
communicate well. 

1073
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,960
Here's how society. 
It is uncomfortable. 

1074
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,280
I do get that and I have given 
feedback to people. 

1075
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,680
It's almost like saying we are 
doing it wrong and I understand 

1076
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,280
that. 
But I think we all get things 

1077
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,480
wrong sometimes and we should 
just accept like in our 

1078
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,920
expertise we're probably like 
geniuses, but we can't be 

1079
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,560
experts in every area. 
That's when you've got to bring 

1080
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,480
other people on. 
And I'm not even saying me like 

1081
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,920
I get asked to do stuff, I'm 
doing a lot of stuff, but we 

1082
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,440
need to train more people so 
that they can do what I'm doing.

1083
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,240
We need to have those 
opportunities which at the 

1084
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:17,600
moment they don't exist, so 
there's no incentive. 

1085
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,640
The last part of our show before
we talk about how and where 

1086
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,920
people can follow you and buy 
your book, we'll put a link to 

1087
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,560
that in the show notes is our 
rapid fire questions where we 

1088
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,520
get a little bit more. 
So the first one is. 

1089
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:34,640
Are you a coffee or tea person? 
Oh yeah, tea. 

1090
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:35,640
OK, what types of? 
Tea. 

1091
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,800
I drink regular tea, but only in
the mornings because otherwise 

1092
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,800
the caffeine keeps me up at 
night and I drink mint tea. 

1093
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:43,600
White tea I drink. 
All the teas. 

1094
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:44,400
All the teas. 
OK. 

1095
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,280
Perfect. 
Well, when we finally meet, 

1096
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,680
we'll get a tea time together 
going because I'm also a tea a 

1097
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:49,480
tea gown myself. 
Nice. 

1098
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,560
If you had to build the city of 
the future, what are you putting

1099
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,080
in it? 
What would it might look like? 

1100
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:58,440
Oh, wow, this is rapid fire. 
Yeah. 

1101
00:50:58,520 --> 00:50:59,600
Yeah. 
Do you know something? 

1102
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,640
Look, is it, There is a book 
that I read by Isaac Asimov, but

1103
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:05,760
I can't remember which one it 
was. 

1104
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:07,560
It's the closest thing you'll 
get to a utopia. 

1105
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,280
It's not a utopian, but it's 
like people are getting all the 

1106
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,600
benefits of the technology. 
People broadly trust the 

1107
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,760
science. 
People are supported if they 

1108
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,040
can't fit into the system. 
You're not obligated to have to 

1109
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,760
work most of your life. 
That's the pinnacle. 

1110
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,840
I think that's the pinnacle of a
society with the least amount of

1111
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,560
struggle. 
You wrote about it really well, 

1112
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,240
but I can't remember which story
it was. 

1113
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:28,360
I. 
Like that. 

1114
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:29,680
So that's a pretty good, good 
answer. 

1115
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,640
And then is there a book, I 
mean, other than your own book 

1116
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,560
that you've read that you're 
like, wow, I would recommend 

1117
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,000
people read this that kind of 
change your worldview. 

1118
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,280
Yeah, it was Cosmos by Carl 
Sagan. 

1119
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:47,480
I read this when I was a kid, 
and what blew my mind about it 

1120
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,280
was it was almost like a light 
bulb moment. 

1121
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,600
You can talk about science like 
this because if you read it, I 

1122
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,560
mean, it's still like, you know,
one of these best selling books,

1123
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,720
even though it's old now. 
If you read it, it's like 

1124
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:04,240
poetry, but about science, about
space science, about astronomy. 

1125
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:06,400
And he was an astrophysicist. 
So it's all in there. 

1126
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,160
But it was like poetry. 
It's the first time I saw that 

1127
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,760
done. 
And I thought, Oh my goodness, I

1128
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,400
would love to be able to do that
because I was so gripped and it 

1129
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,520
interested me in something. 
Not because I'm not interested 

1130
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,760
in space and astronomy, because 
I actually really am out of 

1131
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,960
telescope, but because those 
books were boring textbooks. 

1132
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:26,160
I was a kid and this book was 
like, it was like poetry. 

1133
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,280
So yeah, I mean that his books. 
Then I went and read everything 

1134
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,840
he's ever written, and that 
really set me on the trajectory 

1135
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,400
for doing what I do now. 
That's amazing. 

1136
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:35,040
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1137
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:40,440
The OG Carl Sagan, I think would
also be top, top recommended for

1138
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,720
people to go read. 
What gives you hope about 

1139
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:46,920
science communication, just the 
world, environmentalism going 

1140
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:48,440
forward. 
What really excites you? 

1141
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:50,920
I think so. 
We're having some really good 

1142
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,720
conversations now that we've 
never had before. 

1143
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,160
And I think it's easy to be kind
of negative in the moment, but 

1144
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,520
it brings us back to what we're 
saying that actually for most of

1145
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,680
human history, we lived in 
scarcity and most of us don't. 

1146
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:05,240
Now, there's still people that 
would need to be lifted out of 

1147
00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:07,880
energy poverty. 
But for most of us, like if you 

1148
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,200
picked a timeline to live in, 
yes, I know there are bad things

1149
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,080
happening in the world, but if 
you picked a timeline, it would 

1150
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,800
be now you wouldn't go back to 
tribal times, you wouldn't go 

1151
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,040
back to chiefdoms, you wouldn't 
even go back to like medieval 

1152
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,680
times because the violence, 
there was so much violence, you 

1153
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,160
know, and there wasn't like the 
medical developments we have 

1154
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:25,480
now. 
And the thing that really 

1155
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,560
excites me is actually what's 
happening in medicine. 

1156
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,760
And I think this is really like 
under discussed because even 

1157
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,480
just like in the last year, 
we're finding through gene 

1158
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,680
editing and other technologies, 
we're finding, you know, cures 

1159
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,320
for blindness. 
Kids can see for the first time,

1160
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:42,680
they've never been able to see 
visits. 

1161
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,880
They found this cool. 
And it sets up the research for 

1162
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,480
further investigation, discovery
in those areas, treatment for 

1163
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,080
Alzheimer's that didn't exist 
before, treatment for 

1164
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,240
Parkinson's. 
Like there's so much, there's so

1165
00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:56,720
much going on. 
And I know there's been funding 

1166
00:53:56,720 --> 00:53:57,960
cuts and issues and all that 
stuff. 

1167
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,640
But if you think about it, even 
when you read the headlines of 

1168
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,680
that, you kind of read, oh 
great, well, this blind kid was 

1169
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,520
given this therapy. 
You can see for the first time 

1170
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,120
and you've got the parents 
saying, Oh my God, he saw us for

1171
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:09,560
the first time. 
Like it's mind blowing. 

1172
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,080
Even I saw a similar thing for 
deafness as well. 

1173
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,200
Like loads of advances coming 
in. 

1174
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,760
What really excites me is even 
with everything that's 

1175
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:24,560
happening, there are people 
working away at trying to make 

1176
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:30,280
the lives better of those, you 
know, most disadvantaged people,

1177
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:34,080
people who don't have the basic 
kind of like human dignity that 

1178
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,720
you get from you're not 
suffering through physiological 

1179
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:40,120
impairments. 
I think that's incredible and I 

1180
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:41,640
think it's just so under 
discussed. 

1181
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:43,840
Just wrote a short article about
it for New Humanist Magazine. 

1182
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,760
It was just like a listicle. 
Here are 10 things that just 

1183
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,720
happened in the last year that 
is not getting enough attention 

1184
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:52,840
that this is in just a few 
years, this would change so many

1185
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:54,960
lives. 
And I think sometimes we forget 

1186
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,360
that human aspect, that they're 
all these people. 

1187
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,160
And let's be honest, those are 
scientists. 

1188
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,560
It's not the image that a lot of
people conjure up when they 

1189
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,040
think of a scientist, someone 
who just putting all their 

1190
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,720
life's energy and work into 
helping people in the most 

1191
00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:09,120
vulnerable communities. 
I think that's a really 

1192
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,760
beautiful thing. 
So yeah, it makes me feel 

1193
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,120
positive. 
You could. 

1194
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,600
Go and try and get wealthy doing
something else you don't have 

1195
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,440
to. 
And we always still have the 

1196
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,480
most altruistic people pushing 
back, trying to do, you know, 

1197
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,640
make things better. 
I'm very inspired by those 

1198
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:27,480
stories. 
Yeah. 

1199
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,760
And I, and I think that's always
the amazing part of science is 

1200
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,200
when we do get to move the 
needle and make a breakthrough 

1201
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,200
and just the cascade effect of 
how many lives it's positively 

1202
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,000
impacted. 
Like to me, I'm like that's, 

1203
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:42,600
that's. 
Some of those things you can't 

1204
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:44,640
even measure. 
You can measure the amount of 

1205
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,960
people treated, but you can't 
know the ripple effect in his 

1206
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,880
families or in that person's 
life trajectory or anything 

1207
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,640
really. 
But that's why it's so 

1208
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,840
phenomenal that we often focus 
on here's this bad thing that 

1209
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:57,320
happened, and now there's a 
ripple effect from that. 

1210
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,560
What about all the good stuff? 
There's a whole network of 

1211
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,080
people out there just doing the 
good stuff, and maybe we 

1212
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,160
shouldn't forget that. 
Amazing. 

1213
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,960
Well where should we go to find 
your book to follow you? 

1214
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,600
Energy is life, I love it. 
Use life. 

1215
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,120
Why environmentalism? 
Like nuclear? 

1216
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,400
You can find it anywhere. 
The easiest place to get it is 

1217
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:16,640
Amazon if you're in the US. 
There's a slight delay with 

1218
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,280
getting the paperback because 
it's published here, but the 

1219
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,480
ebooks available instantly 
everywhere. 

1220
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,680
You can find me everywhere. 
I'm on TikTok Z love science, 

1221
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,640
I'm on Instagram. 
My name's Zeon lights. 

1222
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,480
I'm on X Zeon tree. 
I'm easy to find and if people 

1223
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,680
want to contact me, I have a 
contact form on our website 

1224
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:34,880
which does go straight to my 
e-mail. 

1225
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,840
But yeah, please buy the book. 
Consider some of the ideas in it

1226
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,440
and even changing your mind. 
It's not about convincing people

1227
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,160
of nuclear, which I know you 
know from from reading at least 

1228
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,840
some of it. 
It's about challenging some of 

1229
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,200
our foundational beliefs that 
have kind of cropped up over 

1230
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,600
many years of dialogue around 
these issues that have maybe 

1231
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,120
never been challenged. 
And I'd be surprised if anyone 

1232
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:58,480
reads it and isn't challenged on
some point somewhere because 

1233
00:56:58,480 --> 00:56:59,840
it's about the communication, 
right? 

1234
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:01,280
As well as, you know, 
technology. 

1235
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,040
Yeah, I've got the ebook 
version, but I've been kind of 

1236
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,640
journaling in in the sides. 
And so, yeah, just trying to 

1237
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,200
trying to kind of implement some
of some of the new kind of 

1238
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,000
thought processes that I've that
I've got from the book. 

1239
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,000
So Zion, thank you so much for, 
you know, having this 

1240
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,800
conversation again with me 
telling us and sharing about 

1241
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,120
your life story. 
I think it's been phenomenal to 

1242
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,040
kind of see the way in which you
move through the world. 

1243
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:28,000
It's, it's very inspirational 
the way that you're, you're 

1244
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,040
constantly looking to make the 
planet better, but also 

1245
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:36,080
challenge your own beliefs and, 
and say like, hey, is this the 

1246
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,120
most right thing? 
Based on my experience and, and,

1247
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,760
and finding that truth, I think 
that like your, your journey is 

1248
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:47,720
definitely a really good example
of how we can get to, you know, 

1249
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:49,800
communicating with the public 
better. 

1250
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,000
And so, yeah, thank you for 
doing that work for yourself, 

1251
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:55,440
but like for the rest of, you 
know, the different publics 

1252
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,520
online as well. 
Thank you. 

1253
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,640
Thanks for having me. 
Thank you so much for listening 

1254
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:05,680
to this episode of Naked Nuclear
and our first episode in the 

1255
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:07,440
series. 
Follow them Friday. 

1256
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,480
Every final Friday of the month 
we will be dropping another 

1257
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:15,320
episode with a mover and shaker 
within the industry that is 

1258
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:20,000
putting out amazing content. 
If you enjoyed this episode and 

1259
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,160
honestly, if your brain isn't a 
little bit rewired right now, 

1260
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,400
you should absolutely be 
following Zeon Lights. 

1261
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,840
You can find her across all 
platforms, including Instagram, 

1262
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:34,000
LinkedIn, TikTok, and X. 
She is consistently sharing 

1263
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,240
sharp, thoughtful takes on 
energy, environmentalism, 

1264
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:43,160
science, and nuclear that is 
getting millions of views across

1265
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,080
these platforms. 
If you want to go deeper into 

1266
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:49,880
everything we talked about 
today, her book Energy is Life 

1267
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:53,720
is now available on Amazon. 
And for me, it was one of those 

1268
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,960
reads that challenge the way 
that I think about energy, 

1269
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:01,160
climate, what we think is good 
and bad, and what it actually 

1270
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,640
means to support life on this 
planet. 

1271
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,960
As always, if you got any value 
from this episode, share it with

1272
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,040
a friend, send it to someone who
still thinks nuclear is scary, 

1273
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:13,920
and help keep these 
conversations going. 

1274
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,160
Thank you so much for listening 
to Naked Nuclear. 

1275
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:18,960
Until next time, stay.