1 00:00:06,830 --> 00:00:11,070 Hello, and welcome back to Top of the OPS, a podcast brought to 2 00:00:11,070 --> 00:00:14,190 you by The Drawdown. My name is John Whitaker. 3 00:00:14,190 --> 00:00:17,350 I'm the editor of The Drawdown and your host for this pod. 4 00:00:17,670 --> 00:00:21,470 In each episode of Toto, we take a closer look at a hot topic in 5 00:00:21,470 --> 00:00:24,070 private markets. And in today's episode, we'll be 6 00:00:24,070 --> 00:00:27,270 taking a closer look at the challenges of transferring from 7 00:00:27,270 --> 00:00:29,590 one fund administrator to another. 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,000 Once again, our conversation is sponsored by the good people of 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,880 HSBC Innovation Banking. From mid market private equity 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,880 to venture capital, innovation needs different. 11 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,320 Our episode partner, HSBC Innovation Banking offers 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,400 tailored financing, foreign exchange and banking solutions 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,200 to match evolving needs. Backed by deep sector expertise 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,200 and global reach, It's Strategic Fund Solutions team are here to 15 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,040 help UK clients achieve their financial goals. 16 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,520 Discover more at hsbcinnovationbanking.com. 17 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:06,560 As always, I'm joined today by the Mitchell Stark and Scotty 18 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,320 Bolland of Private markets Journalism, Tanya Kuchel and 19 00:01:10,320 --> 00:01:14,280 Matthias Plotz, reporter and deputy editor at The Drawdown 20 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,440 respectively. How are you guys doing? 21 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,400 Pretty well. Thanks, John. 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,280 Looking forward to the company Christmas party on Friday. 23 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,040 But to be honest, at this point I am like 90% confident you're 24 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,480 just making names up. I still don't know who that is, 25 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,920 but I will sadly miss the Christmas party because I will 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,360 be gallivanting in sunny India soon so. 27 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,880 But I hope it's fun. Yeah, as you can tell, we're 28 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,320 recording this in the lead up to Christmas, which means we're all 29 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:50,520 getting into the festive spirit. Unfortunately, it's less festive 30 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:56,000 fun for England's cricketers down Under right now, but that's 31 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,320 the only clear I'll give to the reference this episode. 32 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,840 Anyway, let's move on to today's topic. 33 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,320 In part, it's been inspired by one of our recent cover 34 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,680 features, which Matthias wrote. So, Matthias, do you want to 35 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,320 walk us through what we'll be talking about today? 36 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,400 Gladly, it's not cricket. So my latest cover feature was 37 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:23,960 about fund administration and I kind of started out from a point 38 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,480 of frustration, which is to say that for a while now I've kind 39 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,440 of noticed that fund administrators are the service 40 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,360 provider operational professionals complain about the 41 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,360 most. However, at the same time, a 42 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,760 good third of the fund administration industry is 43 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,640 backed by private equity. So this was kind of the the 44 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:49,000 starting point for what became a very long research into where 45 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,040 the issue exactly is. And as with anything in life, 46 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,640 it's a complicated set of market dynamics and the need for the 47 00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:59,000 relationship between the GP and their fund admin to evolve. 48 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,000 And if any listeners would like to know more, it's on the TDD 49 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,360 website. Go check it out. 50 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,280 Plug plug. Yeah. 51 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,960 And any regular reader of the drawdown will be familiar with 52 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,600 those typical complaints by GPS that it's incredibly difficult 53 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,240 to change fund administrator, yet service quality is not 54 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,360 always as high as end users would like. 55 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,560 There's a high volume of staff churn, particularly in 56 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,880 competitive jurisdictions like Luxembourg, and the technology 57 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,120 they use can often be outdated and poorly integrated. 58 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,160 All of these problems are then exacerbated by the near constant 59 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,120 level of consolidation and M&A in the fund admin space. 60 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,640 M&A in the fund admin space has actually shown no signs of 61 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,480 slowing down. It is of course tough to stay 62 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,000 under under the radar as a fund admin because they're evolving 63 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,920 client needs and admins have to keep up. 64 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,800 And sometimes consolidating with another fund admin becomes the 65 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,880 better choice. But it's not always the best for 66 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,320 GPS because it can cause disruption in the operations and 67 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,080 so on. Yeah. 68 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,760 And so as as part of my research, I had a couple of 69 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,960 conversations about the stickiness of the fund admin 70 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,640 business and the challenges of unsticking and changing your 71 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,880 fund administrator. And so actually for today's 72 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,760 session, I invited Aiden O Flanagan. 73 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,920 I sincerely hope I pronounce that name correctly, Director 74 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,160 and Group Head of Funds at the Fund Admin Hive and to talk more 75 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,120 about it because Hyvan has fund admin transfers as a specific 76 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,400 part of the service offering and they have won the accolade for 77 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,920 best Fund Admin in the category for several years in a row at 78 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,680 the Jordan Awards. So I really couldn't think of a 79 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,000 better person to have this chat with. 80 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,960 Unfortunately, I am not there in person. 81 00:04:50,960 --> 00:05:01,320 So over to you, John. So I'm delighted to be joined by 82 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,200 Aiden from Hi, Vern. Aiden, thank you for joining us 83 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,400 on the podcast today. And as you know, we're talking 84 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:14,920 about fund admin transfers. Keen to get your, your insights 85 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,440 into this because, you know, hi Vern, you know, specifically 86 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,920 focuses on this area. So we'll dive straight into it. 87 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:26,200 Can you talk us through the situations AGP would consider 88 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,920 fund admins instead of simply just signing with a new fund 89 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,400 admin for the next fund and keep the current one for the current 90 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,520 fund that they're running? Why would AGP decide to go down 91 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,560 the route specifically of doing a transfer? 92 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,280 Sure. I mean, it's generally just 93 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:44,600 comes down to a breakdown in the relationship and service 94 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:45,800 quality. You know, it's poor 95 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,520 responsiveness from the administrator. 96 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,080 There's lots of errors that might be compliance issues. 97 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:51,800 That's usually what it comes down to. 98 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,800 It gets to a point where it, you know, the cost of staying, you 99 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,120 know, it's just the risk is too high basically. 100 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,880 So the, you know, the, the hassle of making that transfer, 101 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,160 it just outweighs that cost basically. 102 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,080 And if I put into numbers for you, you know, 6-7 years ago, 103 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,880 you know, we did our first transfer and we had three at the 104 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:12,720 same time from three different clients. 105 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,400 And since then about 40% of our client makeup is from switch 106 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,960 business basically. And we've, this is a scary 107 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,520 statistic. We've switched business from 18 108 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,680 different fund administrators in the past, you know, 7-6 years 109 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,120 and that's quite a scary thing and some of them multiple times 110 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:30,600 as well. Well, I was going to say, are 111 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,160 there any in particular that you probably wouldn't name names, 112 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,080 but. I think most people in industry 113 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:36,160 will know who we're talking about. 114 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,560 There's some there that surprise though, you know, 18, that's a 115 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,920 lot, you know, somewhere small players, somewhere a lot very 116 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,280 large players, you know, and somewhere mid size. 117 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:45,280 There was a good, you know, there's a good spread, but it 118 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:46,760 always just comes down to poor service. 119 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,160 Yeah. And I guess the, the question 120 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,560 within that is, umm, so 18 different administrators where 121 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,840 you've seen people wanting to jump ship, umm, is that because 122 00:06:56,840 --> 00:07:00,680 there are endemic problems across all administrators no 123 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,120 matter kind of what size they are? 124 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,720 Or is it because there's kind of a range of motivations for doing 125 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,240 so That's. A good question. 126 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,960 I think generally just comes down to the the culture and the 127 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,840 people. I mean, we all talk about 128 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,560 technology and technology is a good enabler, but it's it's all 129 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,320 about the people. If you've got good staff and 130 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,720 they're taken care of, yeah, generally you're going to get a 131 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,920 good service. You know, so the biggest thing 132 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,320 you look at is staff turnover or staff retention rates. 133 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:27,760 I prefer to be a bit more positive on it. 134 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,240 If you look at staff retention rates, that's got to be one of 135 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,040 the key stats clients should be looking at. 136 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,360 And you know, once you start seeing the staff turnover, then 137 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,520 that's where things start to slip because it's hard to hire 138 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,520 people. It takes time to on board them 139 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,280 and at that point your existing staff are stretched and then 140 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,720 they get fed up and then they leave and it's just a self, you 141 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,160 know, fulfilling, you know, prophecy basically at the end, 142 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,280 at the end of the day. So then do you think it's fair 143 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,000 because there's been so much kind of consolidation and M&A 144 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,520 within the fund administration space that that has kind of 145 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,800 directly contributed to the level of churn you're seeing not 146 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,920 just at one or two administrators, but actually 147 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,800 quite, quite, you know, widely across the industry? 148 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,000 I think it has. I mean, when I first came into 149 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,400 the fund administration sector, I came from the investor 150 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,640 management sector and I outsourced fund administrators. 151 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,840 But back then I think there was only one administrator in the 152 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,160 world that was P backed. So it actually wasn't in, it 153 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,600 wasn't a an asset class like it is today, but I had terrible 154 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,960 service back then as well. We ended up building a middle 155 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,600 office team of 10 full time staff to shadow everything the 156 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,400 administrators were doing. And they're both global players. 157 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,880 I think the problem is, you know, on the, what I found with 158 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,720 the large global players, they just weren't right sized for us, 159 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,200 even though we were quite a large manager. 160 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,600 It just, we weren't getting a, you know, a high torch service 161 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,120 basically. They have loads of other big 162 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,040 clients giving them, you know, millions of revenue and I think 163 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,320 we just weren't matched properly when I look back. 164 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,000 Also, what we did was pretty complicated to be fair, when I, 165 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,480 you know, I may be a bit harsh on my administrators back then. 166 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,280 Now that I I'm in that seat myself, you know, because, you 167 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,880 know, administrators have to do an awful lot that managers 168 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,320 probably don't realize. There's a lot of stuff that goes 169 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,760 in the background that clients will never see. 170 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,040 That's until you're actually there, you realize there's 171 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,280 actually quite a lot that goes on behind the scenes. 172 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,200 Another thing, you know, if you look at transitions, you kind of 173 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,480 wonder, you know, I in an ideal world, you wouldn't move a lace 174 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,320 vintage. Yeah, you know, fund basically. 175 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,600 So fund 1-2 and three might make sense if you're launching fund 3 176 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,600 or fund 4 to move fund three, maybe fun 2. 177 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,160 But one, you wonder, you know, why would they? 178 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,080 Yeah. And it just comes back to 179 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,960 service. We've done a number of them 180 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,360 where the first has come over and they're already just 181 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:38,800 distributing. Right. 182 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,400 Yeah. And they just had to get across 183 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,120 because they're worried there were going to be errors in the 184 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,680 cap tables, the distributions might be incorrect as results, 185 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,160 and they just want it all across basically. 186 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,280 You get to used to a certain level of service and you're not 187 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,280 receiving it from an older vintage. 188 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,160 Then the the motivation for changing increases quite a lot, 189 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,480 yeah. Well, it's, it's higher risk 190 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,360 because it's and it's a much more cumbersome transfer because 191 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,040 the amount of data points the older fund is you've got 192 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,280 thousands of different data points. 193 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,000 So it's a fairly cumbersome move and I wouldn't take it lightly, 194 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,840 but it just shows you how big bad things are with their 195 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,120 relationship that they feel like they have to move that 196 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,520 structure. OK, basically, and I know 197 00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:20,520 another reason why generally probably makes sense is if 198 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,360 you're getting a new administrator to do the next 199 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,560 funds just for ease and operational ease, just have it 200 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:27,640 all. You know that have the same LP 201 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,200 experience for investors, the same reports etcetera, same 202 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,960 branding, all these different, the same experience basically. 203 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,320 It might make sense to move everything across, but we have a 204 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,680 number of examples where the funds, the existing funds 205 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:43,680 haven't been moved across us. We've just been given the brand 206 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:46,800 new one and move forward and they've worked with two 207 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,840 administrators basically and then on each new fund we get the 208 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,000 new fund and then it gradually the old administrator 209 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,520 disappears. Yeah, basically. 210 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,120 So phased out instead? Yeah, OK. 211 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,960 So we, we've talked a little bit about the demand there and it's, 212 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,200 you know, hi Vern was kind of from the outset saw that 213 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,520 opportunity. Let's dig in and build a little 214 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,040 bit more into the challenges, right. 215 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,000 So what makes them such as you've already flagged up? 216 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,200 You really need to consider this carefully because it's quite 217 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,560 challenging right to to undertake a transfer. 218 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:18,680 Yeah. No, absolutely. 219 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:21,600 I mean, the first one is data, you know, it's data migration 220 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,160 and the complexity around this. And obviously the older the 221 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,280 vintage, the more complex that gets. 222 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:27,920 And going back to the amount of data points you're going to 223 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,800 have, the records, you know, moving that across quite 224 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:35,720 difficult and time consuming. Generally the burden falls on 225 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,480 the new fund administrator. I mean, the amount of time we 226 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,440 spend on transitions are, you know, quite extensive. 227 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,280 And it also depends on technology and it depends on the 228 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,240 outgoing administrators. Technology, some administrators 229 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,720 and ones you would expect would have good technology don't have 230 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,360 good technology. So you're ending up having to 231 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,720 basically manually do everything, manually input, you 232 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,720 know, bookkeeping from day one, from inception. 233 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,840 And we've done that quite a lot rather than just being able to, 234 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,280 you know, lift, you know, lift it from them, then pump it into 235 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,320 our systems. You know, so we have a, a 236 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,760 mixture of both. So, yeah, a lot around data 237 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,560 complexity, I would say, and the volumes also, we got to think of 238 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:18,680 that LP communications, you know, you know, there's a bit of 239 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:22,600 a, what would I call, you know, you, you need to manage your 240 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,920 optics around why you got it wrong because you did choose 241 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,520 this administrator, why you're moving, you know, so you got to 242 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,200 make a very positive experience for the LP. 243 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,200 You know, it's got to be in their interests and it's, you've 244 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,080 got to be proactive on it. So it's getting that upfront 245 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,520 communication to LP's if you think that's necessary. 246 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:39,400 Maybe some LP's don't care, I don't know. 247 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,280 But generally that's, you know, that's got to be higher at the 248 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,480 top of the GP's mind when they're looking at 249 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:45,480 transitioning. Yeah. 250 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:51,160 Another aspect of that with the LP's is, is KYC and generally, 251 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,240 you know, there's a good chance there's going to be some KYC 252 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,840 remediation. If you've had a poor service, 253 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,520 there's a good chance you know there's going to be some poor 254 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,360 records there. Yeah, and pretty much I would 255 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,880 say 80% of the transitions we've did, probably more we've had to 256 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,960 remediate. KYC is one of those parts where 257 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,640 you have to remediate, you have to do some KYC refreshes. 258 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,280 I think whenever I talk to GPS who are thinking of moving, 259 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,800 that's one of their big worries and concerns. 260 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:23,800 But in the end, when you do it #1 you're take care of an issue 261 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,680 that could come back to haunt you because AML legislation is 262 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:28,440 so strict. And that's where the biggest 263 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,000 penalties are. If you get caught for not having 264 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,800 the right CDD on file, that could come back to haunt you. 265 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,800 On top of that, to this day, we've never had a complaint or 266 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,800 any negative feedback from LP's when we've gone out to refresh 267 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,720 KYC. They, I think they're just used 268 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,600 to it at this stage. You know, maybe, you know, 269 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,840 especially the sophisticated investors, you know, maybe the, 270 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,480 the less sophisticated investors may not be used to all this KYC, 271 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,120 but I think we all are at this stage. 272 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,520 I think timing as well. You, you know, when do you time 273 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,080 a transfer? You know, if you, you can't, you 274 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,800 know, doing a mid close is a terrible idea. 275 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,400 You know, if you're making an investment, you're drawing money 276 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,920 down from investors. You know, that's probably a bad 277 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,400 time to time it around then because we won't have access to 278 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,080 the bank accounts yet, you know, and a distribution's a terrible 279 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,640 idea. So in an ideal world, the best 280 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,560 time to do it is when end of year audit basically where the 281 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,720 outgoing administrator finalises that audit. 282 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,160 So whether it be it gets signed off end of February, end of 283 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,040 March and you do that switch, you do the transition on that 284 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,920 date basically. Yeah, in the background, we're 285 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,200 doing all the record keeping. We're putting everything on into 286 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,000 our systems, whether it's manually or automatically and 287 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,680 checking all the data and reconciling. 288 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,680 That's probably the best time to do it doesn't always fall that 289 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,080 way. Unfortunately, we have done ones 290 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,160 where we've had to share the audit and it's quite a 291 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,640 complicated process. It's very painful because the 292 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,800 outgoing administrator wants nothing to do with it, even 293 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,440 though they have the the history and they've probably their, 294 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,320 their staff probably been on the board of these companies. 295 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,320 So we haven't been on the board. So it's hard for us to sign off 296 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,920 on an audit when we haven't been there, whereas the existing 297 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,800 directors might cause hassles and refuse to sign. 298 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,760 So there can be some complications around that. 299 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,200 Yeah, absolutely. A couple of things that you said 300 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,920 there thought worth circling back on. 301 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,320 So one around the data point and maybe there's there's a simple 302 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,720 answer to this. But when you're talking about 303 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,960 the added complexity, particularly of older funds and 304 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,000 the quality of data, does that suggest that actually it's going 305 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,400 to become easier for managers as we assume kind of the data 306 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,320 integrity and and governance around that improves as process 307 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,040 become more automated? Is it going to become more of a 308 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,840 viable option for managers to switch because there's less of 309 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,480 the complications of kind of creaky data? 310 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,720 See The thing is, I don't really necessarily see it as a 311 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,200 complication for the GP. We end up doing all the work. 312 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,720 Quite. Frankly, you know, the GP needs 313 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,040 to be there to, you know, you know, we give regular updates to 314 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,400 them. And if there's any issues or 315 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,600 slowness or lack responsiveness from the outgoing administrator, 316 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,320 we need them to see can they use any levers. 317 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,520 But in the end, it's also doing all that work. 318 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,600 So does it, will it make it any easier? 319 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,440 Hopefully. But you're going to rely on 320 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,760 every administrator in the world to be as clean on data and to 321 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,040 have their data warehouses and to have data integrity. 322 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,080 And I'm not convinced you're going to have that is the 323 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,920 reality, because some won't have the resources to put into it, 324 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,080 basically. And maybe you'll get to a point 325 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,600 where some administrators just disappear over time if they have 326 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,160 an investor property in data, basically. 327 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,120 But I don't think it's going to change overnight, to be honest 328 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,040 with you. We're we're not pointed towards 329 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,320 some sunny uplands quite yet. It's in terms of kind of. 330 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,880 Well, I think data transparent, I don't think also you have to 331 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,520 think about how good is that data anyway. 332 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,760 If you're talking about you're getting a poor service, there's 333 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,360 a really good reason you're getting a poor service, right? 334 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,640 And that correlates to poor records. 335 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,200 And that just from our experience, you know, in 336 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,400 generally most transitions we get the record keeping is awful. 337 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,600 I mean, we have some instances where there's three years and 338 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,240 there are no board minutes for these GP companies, especially 339 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,839 offshore. It's all about managing 340 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:09,400 substance, economic substance and substance offshore. 341 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,440 And there's three years of outstanding minutes, minutes for 342 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,960 that board, you know, and they're, you know, snow in the 343 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,319 background. They're recreating those board 344 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:18,160 minutes. And they're, you know, so 345 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,520 there's, you know, the problem is even if you have the 346 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,440 technology in place, you're getting a poor service. 347 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,000 That probably means there's going to be remediation. 348 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,840 There's poor data there. You're not going to be able to 349 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,800 rely on that data coming across. And what are the common pitfalls 350 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,720 that you see in terms from the G PS perspective if they're 351 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,280 looking to go through this process? 352 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,080 Yeah, I mean, there's remediation surprises, I've said 353 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,040 it a few Times Now. You you're going to have to 354 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,000 assume you've, you've got a poor service. 355 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,240 There's going to be a clean up exercise to do. 356 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,360 However, we deal with most of that, you know, so, but you just 357 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:53,720 have to be realistic. It's not going to be clean and 358 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,200 smooth sailing basically. The other thing I'd say is 359 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,440 underestimating the time it takes. 360 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,640 I mean, it's, I mean most fund administration agreements have 361 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,320 three months notice periods in there. 362 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,240 So when you terminate guaranteed it'll never take three months. 363 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,520 It's we've only managed to do 1 within the three months 364 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:13,760 transition out of all those transitions we've done. 365 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,000 All them extend way beyond that. Good reasons for that. 366 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,480 It's a complex exercise. You know there is the outgoing 367 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,320 administrator is no longer incentivize. 368 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,000 You're no longer a client. They're losing you. 369 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:30,000 You're getting a poor service. Before you fire them, imagine 370 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,280 what kind of service you're going to get now. 371 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,360 You know, they don't see you're not the existing client anymore. 372 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,400 They're going to move on and prioritize other clients. 373 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,440 The other thing is they're losing revenue. 374 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,960 So the outgoing administrator might want to extend this 375 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,320 process a bit more so they keep getting paid revenue beyond the 376 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,480 three months. So there's lots of, you know, 377 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,240 lots of reasons why it takes longer. 378 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,080 You know, there is a lot of information though that we need. 379 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,480 We, we generally do need the three months, you know, 380 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,400 reviewing all the KYC, getting all the, all, the, all the 381 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,240 records, putting everything onto our system, reconciling it. 382 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:03,600 It does take a good three months. 383 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,280 Umm, but generally it just depends how quickly we can get 384 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,600 the information from the outgoing administrator and then 385 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,840 we can start doing that work. But yeah, I think just be 386 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,520 realistic on, you know, when you serve that notice, find out what 387 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,480 happens after that notice period as well if it if it lapses, 388 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,720 because generally it does lapse. And that's another thing they 389 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,480 need to be wary of choosing the wrong administrator again. 390 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,400 You know, do your due diligence, get client references, 391 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,400 especially from client references that have moved from 392 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,440 another administrator to this administrator you're talking to. 393 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,080 You know, get their references, get data from the administrator 394 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,040 on client turnover, client satisfaction, client complaints, 395 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,320 all that kind of stuff. You know, staff retention. 396 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,160 They're probably the key things to be looking at, basically. 397 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,680 I would say so, yeah. I just don't make that once 398 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,280 burned, you know, twice shy and all that. 399 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,240 Well, make sure you don't have people do make this mistake 400 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:57,920 again. Yeah. 401 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,040 That's the reality. You have sympathy for GPS as 402 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,120 well, right, Because it's quite a fluid and evolving market, 403 00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:07,160 right where there's, as we said before, there's lots of like M&A 404 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,200 and and so actually keeping track of. 405 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,240 Where anyone administrator's reputation is at anyone time is 406 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,320 is is a challenge. It is, yeah, yeah. 407 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,520 And it's, and it's a hard one. It's, it's all about trying to 408 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:24,280 find an administrator that can scale but at the same time 409 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,240 retain good client service. And that's something we're 410 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,600 always looking at. We think that's the, you know, 411 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,320 that's that that's our vision basically as we, if we can 412 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,280 become a scalable business, we don't want to be the biggest 413 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,240 business in the world. We want to, our target is the 414 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,400 mid market. Basically, you know, we want to 415 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,000 be the best mid market fund administrator in the world. 416 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,920 And to do that, you know, we, we need to be, while we're scaling, 417 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,120 we need to do it slowly and methodically and not go jump 418 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:52,320 from 200 staff or 300 staff to 2000 staff overnight. 419 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,720 You know, it's none of that. It's it's gradually increments, 420 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,040 increments organically. So, you know, for, for us, we're 421 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,640 investing an awful lot in this conundrum. 422 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,560 Basically, you know, how do you scale, but at the same time 423 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,480 retain your, your, your client satisfaction levels. 424 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,200 And we've managed to do it all these years and we still do it. 425 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,600 But we're investing an awful lot in technology. 426 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,760 And we do actually believe technology will be part solution 427 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,480 to this. It enables staff, but also it 428 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,120 can get, we can get it to the point where it takes away tasks 429 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:24,000 and majority, maybe not 100% of tasks that administrators have 430 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,760 to do, but there's so much stuff in the background they have to 431 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,760 do that they're boring, mundane piece of work that if you could 432 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,360 free your existing staff up away from those kind of things or the 433 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,360 majority of those or, you know, you might not get, be able to 434 00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:39,400 get 100% of every task automated, but it's getting 70 435 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,200 percent, 80% of it automated. Then you're at a point where 436 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,560 those staff are freed up to just focus on the client relation. 437 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,600 Basically. It then means you don't have to 438 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:48,760 hire as many people. Yeah. 439 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,120 And that's the biggest problem with scaling. 440 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:51,720 You're always out trying to hire people. 441 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,680 There aren't enough good people out there well trained. 442 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,960 That's one of the biggest challenge we have actually, is 443 00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:00,920 with these large administrators now they're all siloed off into 444 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,160 one specific task and one role, whereas we're across functional 445 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,240 teams. So whenever we hire someone, 446 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,840 they're, you know, you know, they're, they're quite senior, 447 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,080 but they're not as good as our junior people 'cause they're, 448 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,360 they're not trained on all the other aspects that our team are 449 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:17,200 trained on. So it's, it's, you know, so 450 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,200 that's our biggest thing we're trying to fix. 451 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,720 Yeah, but you're right. GPS, it's, it's a, it, it, I 452 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,920 don't envy them. No, I have to say. 453 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,240 Yeah. And, and, and, and that last 454 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,000 point is really interesting because to me it kind of mirrors 455 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,880 the experience of GPS themselves, right, Is if you 456 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,880 scared as AGP and you've had, and Tanya has written about this 457 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,160 recently, you scared as AGP. You have ACFO that's grown with 458 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,880 the business and they are multifunctional and they know 459 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,240 how everything works. But as the team is growing, 460 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,000 everyone underneath them is siloed. 461 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,920 So then replacing that CFO if they leave is a huge challenge 462 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,720 because how do you find that individual who knows how to do 463 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,440 everything and certainly no one externally is going to 464 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,920 understand all the different aspects of businesses. 465 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,160 So then that's a challenge if you're bringing someone in 466 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,680 externally as well. So it sounds like it's a similar 467 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,760 problem for you know yourselves as a fund administrate as you as 468 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,160 you scared as well. Absolutely. 469 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:14,800 I mean, if you look at some of the fund administrators with 470 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,160 10,000 staff or 5000 staff, I don't know how they do it quite 471 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,600 frankly. And the reality is they don't, 472 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,040 you know, they, they, they focus on their premium clients and 473 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,600 then you get the, the B team or the C team on the other clients 474 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,200 or the 9:00 team. And 9:00 team. 475 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,000 You know, and that's the, you know, 'cause it's just no, no 476 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,480 one's figured out the scaling issue yet. 477 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,560 We think we have and it's going to take some time and a lot of 478 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,400 real cash to do it. Umm, but we're lucky. 479 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,880 We, we're all on the same platform, all in the same 480 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,320 systems. You know, it's a much easier for 481 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:44,960 us. We haven't bought different 482 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,200 systems and trying to integrate systems and all this kind of 483 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,400 stuff. We're so we've got a pretty 484 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,200 simple platform to work from which I think makes it 485 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,840 achievable for us. OK. 486 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:58,760 And just to wrap up then let's talk about advice you would give 487 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:04,600 to the CFO of a mid market GP who's thinking about undertaking 488 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,880 a a fund admin transfer. Then what? 489 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,720 What are the key things that they need to be weighing up in 490 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:10,600 their mind? Yeah. 491 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,960 I mean, well, one is, you know, the cost of staying versus the 492 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,640 hassle of moving basically, you know, is it going to damage your 493 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:18,760 reputation? It's going to make your life 494 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,240 easier. How much spend time you're 495 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,840 spending as a result of the service you're getting or lack 496 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,920 thereof. You know, are you getting 497 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,560 complaints from your LP base? You know, our call notices going 498 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,800 out till late, you know, all these differently. 499 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,320 Are you getting paid your management fees because the 500 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,080 delays and call notices? You know, then as a manager, 501 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,680 you're not getting your GP, you're not getting your fees 502 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,000 till, you know, two months late or something like that. 503 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:43,880 You hear all these war stories, you know, so I, I think, and the 504 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:49,280 only thing I would say is every single client that we have 505 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,320 transitioned, if you ask them now, did they regret it? 506 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,200 Not one will say they regret it. Yeah. 507 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,720 So it's, it's one of those ones where when you do it, you're 508 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:57,880 like, why didn't we do this sooner? 509 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,880 You know, and the problem is time and bandwidth, you know, 510 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,320 for, for, for GPS. So the CFO needs to make sure he 511 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,560 has, he's got a bit of bandwidth or his team has a little bit of 512 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,920 bandwidth to go through this process, even though they won't 513 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,240 be involved in the full detail. We're going to have weekly calls 514 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:14,400 with them to tell them where we're at. 515 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,440 They're going to, we're going to need them to to squeeze in the 516 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,760 administrator, the outgoing administrator sometimes. 517 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,760 So there is input, they'll be having negotiations with the 518 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,720 outgoing administrator in the background. 519 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,080 So there's a bit of there is work for them to do because 520 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,160 you're not the heavy lifting, but it's still time and effort 521 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:34,480 from on their part. In an ideal world, they would 522 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,360 have a load of data themselves and all the documentation, and 523 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,560 they would have everything. The administrator has an idea 524 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,480 where they have it, and they have it saved nicely. 525 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,520 And it's nice and organized so that if we're not getting timely 526 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,960 information from the outgoing administrator, we can lean on 527 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,360 the CFO and his team and they can send us off across the 528 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:50,440 information. Yeah. 529 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,200 Just just to pick up on that, there's, there's such a push 530 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,560 away from kind of shadow accounting within the industry 531 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,720 generally, but you see why fund administrators might be so keen 532 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,920 on it because it protects their position even more, right? 533 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,040 Well, well, yeah. Well, I mean, but even Even so, 534 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,160 you just need the records. I mean, you know, just send us 535 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,040 over all the cap cat statements, all the, you know, you know, the 536 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,040 board minutes, all the, you know, there, there, there's 537 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,320 simple stuff that you'd be surprised, you know, KYC, if 538 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,840 they copies the KYC, that's a big one, right? 539 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,440 Umm, that would all help. You know, umm, them replicating 540 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,600 the accounting. I, I think in some instances it 541 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,280 would help. We had one example where we 542 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,320 transferred 7 funds over and it was one of the worst transitions 543 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,920 we've ever been involved in. And we had to reconstruct 2 of 544 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,560 the funds from day one. And there were the early funds 1 545 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,480 and 2. The Capcast statements were 546 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,880 incorrect, incorrect distributions were being given 547 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,040 to investors. So we had to do a mass 548 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,000 remediation exercise, then go out to LP's and then reinstate. 549 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,480 And yeah, but had they not done that on final distribution it 550 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,080 you know, it, it would have been pretty bad, you know, and and 551 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,240 the embarrassment and the reputation for the manager, you 552 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,040 know, they would have been hit hard by it. 553 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,200 But that that transition not wanted to scare people to go 554 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,880 over a year. Wow, OK. 555 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,840 And a lot of time in RF on our side. 556 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:07,640 Yeah. Yeah. 557 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:08,880 But now it's in a brilliant position. 558 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,920 Basically, you know, we got the CFO emailed us there last week 559 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,320 saying thank you so much. You know, it was a, it was a 560 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,400 lovely e-mail, you know, basically, you know, which is 561 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:18,560 fun. It was always good for the team 562 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,280 to hear because when they're doing it, it's hell. 563 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,200 It's it's not great for the administrators, I have to say, 564 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,040 because it's hard work, these transitions. 565 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,480 Yeah. But if you're delivering that 566 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,120 end result for the GP, that's. You have such sticky 567 00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:33,040 relationships then because you've, you know, and and you 568 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,760 only have to be a little bit better than the last time. 569 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,480 Only joking, you know, we, we, we pride ourselves on being 570 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:38,520 really good. Yeah. 571 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,440 And you by spending that time, you get a really good 572 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,640 relationship with the, the manager team and it becomes very 573 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,640 sticky relationship. Yeah, basically. 574 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,520 Aidan, I think we're probably out of time, but as always, it's 575 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,160 a pleasure to chat to you and I really appreciate you coming in 576 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,240 and talking us through your transfer business. 577 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:06,880 Thank you very much. It's really good to catch up 578 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,480 with Aiden there. I think he gave a pretty honest 579 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,600 and kind of frank assessment of those dynamics in the market of 580 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,640 why people would look to to move, but also, you know, the 581 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,400 challenges that you get around fund transfers as well. 582 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,680 Matthias, what are what are your thoughts? 583 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:30,240 I think for me, the kind of biggest point that that Aiden 584 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,400 made in in summation order, the biggest question I would have is 585 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,480 how do you know, OK, if you've decided you're only going to go 586 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,760 fund admin transfer, There's only so much due diligence you 587 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,120 can do on a potential new fund admin. 588 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,720 And given how complex this process is to then realize at 589 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,280 the end that the new fund admin maybe also isn't up to snuff or 590 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,440 what? What do you want it? 591 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,600 I think Aidan made the point earlier that he that Hiran has 592 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,720 done kind of so if multiple fund admin transfers for a first one 593 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,080 to one fund admin, then to another one and then to another 594 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,720 one. And I think it's kind of what I 595 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,120 wonder is at what point do you feel confident that you have 596 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,440 enough information on your potential new fund admin to go, 597 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,440 OK, actually not better the devil I know. 598 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:25,960 I'm going to go with this new one. 599 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,760 You might have just left a very big fun admin to go to a smaller 600 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,600 boutique one. And then in six months, there's 601 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,560 an article on the drawdown that tells you that your boutique fun 602 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,120 admin has just been bought by the previous bigger one that you 603 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,320 just left. And and so I guess that they had 604 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,760 this kind of uncertainty around what am I getting myself into 605 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,240 you and given the speed of consolidation in this market, 606 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,800 how long am I going to be into this before it changes? 607 00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:00,640 Because even to go to be very topical, Hyvan underwent a 608 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,640 merger earlier this year and what I think it's still subject 609 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,120 to, you know, the usual regulatory customary approvals 610 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,720 there is that Aiden was talking about scale earlier. 611 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,840 And as Hybron scales, there is then also going to be that 612 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,240 question of to what extent might potentially be some of their 613 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,920 customers left behind. As you pointed out, that is 614 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,720 often a problem with these organizations getting bigger. 615 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,280 But without them getting bigger, they also can't take on all of 616 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,320 those new projects. And it all sounds like a very 617 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,160 complicated downward spiral that just makes me glad. 618 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,160 I'm very glad I don't have to undergo any fundamental 619 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,960 transfers in my life. On that note, we probably should 620 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:42,840 move on. I think we've kind of run out of 621 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:48,120 time for today's episode. But before we all tune out, what 622 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,840 should our listeners be looking out for on the draw down? 623 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,440 Coming up, Matthias, how about you? 624 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,080 Very good questions. I'm assuming this episode is 625 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,320 probably going to go live in the new year. 626 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,480 So I think that there's not a specific article or topic that I 627 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,720 would like to shout out. But what I would like to say is 628 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,080 that we've got a lot of new exciting things coming up. 629 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:17,320 And specifically on the the kind of journalistic side, there'll 630 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,680 be a lot more regular updates on fund or missiles and fund 631 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,280 administrators, on legislation on on regulation. 632 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,840 And I'm currently having a lot of conversations around that and 633 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,640 mapping out so that you will get timely information ahead of 634 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,240 Windows developments takes place and you can prepare for it. 635 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,840 Fantastic. How about you, Tanya? 636 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,920 So I do have one upcoming article about the European way 637 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,760 of doing GP stakes. Of course, it's a growing market 638 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,640 in the region and how GPS can remain competitive. 639 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,920 Apart from that, lots to look forward to in the new year. 640 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,360 Yeah, yeah. So we should probably wrap up 641 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,280 there and wish everyone a Merry Christmas and and and Happy New 642 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,040 Year. Though as Matthias says this, 643 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,000 you'll probably be hearing this in 2026. 644 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,720 And as he says, we have lots of exciting plans for the draw down 645 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,080 in 2026 and a lot more to come for our operational leaders. 646 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,840 So watch this space. But for now, a massive thank you 647 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,920 to Tanya and Matthias for joining me once again. 648 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,200 Thank you. Thank you. 649 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,880 And a thank you to our sponsor HSBC B and all of you for 650 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,840 listening, of course. Until next time, see you soon.