1 00:00:06,910 --> 00:00:10,630 Welcome back everyone to another episode of Top of the OPS, a 2 00:00:10,670 --> 00:00:12,790 podcast brought to you by The Drawdown. 3 00:00:13,310 --> 00:00:16,149 In each episode, we explore a topic or theme impacting 4 00:00:16,149 --> 00:00:18,710 operations and finance professionals in private 5 00:00:18,710 --> 00:00:21,790 markets, giving you a perspective on the challenges 6 00:00:21,830 --> 00:00:25,830 faced by operational leaders and the solutions available to them. 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,920 I'm joined today by The Drawdown's Deputy Editor, 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,680 Matthias Plots and reporter Tanya Kuchel. 2 journalists who 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,360 make excellence look as easy as Keely Hodgkinson and Georgina 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,880 Huttabel. Good morning, good morning. 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,920 I'm not even going to try to figure out who those people are. 12 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,280 It is good to have you in the office. 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,920 I googled the names. I will say thank you for the 14 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,040 compliment, John. Yeah, it's definitely meant as a 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:54,880 compliment. Yeah. 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:00,840 So for today's episode, Tanya, we're looking at the tricky 17 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,120 process of CFA succession, which is something you've been writing 18 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:05,600 about recently. So do you want to give us a 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,280 little bit of an intro and write down of the topic today? 20 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,080 Yeah, so I started working on this last year. 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,960 It was something I wrote about for the last December, January 22 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:21,480 cover story of the magazine, which has lots of references to 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,160 Hitchcock Bounce if you are a fan. 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,360 So before we get deeper into this topic, we're going to start 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,280 with some contacts. The CFO role is of course 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,400 changing. Traditionally, CFO, particularly 27 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,000 within smaller firms, has had to wear multiple hats. 28 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,160 They're often responsible for finance plus legal, tech 29 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,800 operations, sustainability frameworks, etcetera. 30 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:49,240 But some firms have it as a dual role of CFO and CLO. 31 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,800 But all of these functions within the CFO office are under 32 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,920 pressure to become more efficient to facilitate scaling, 33 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,920 which only further complicates succession planning. 34 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,640 Last year, there were notable CFO successions that we covered 35 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,360 in detail on the drawdown, For example, Clarit Capital, Revaya 36 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,600 and Flex Capital. All of them, you know, had a 37 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:18,800 range of internal promotions to external hires or interim hires. 38 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,880 Regardless of whether AGP is looking for an interim or moving 39 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,840 up a finance professional in house, the increasing demands of 40 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:31,240 the role has in a way limited the pool for GPS. 41 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,640 Yeah. So what a requirement to wear 42 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:37,480 multiple hats is nothing new for mid market, low mid market or 43 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,080 emerging managers within that CFO role. 44 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,440 I do think the skill set is changing particularly given how 45 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:50,160 AI is disrupting working processes and also look the 46 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,320 wider market conditions. So it's an LP friendly market. 47 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,960 Managers are having to work harder to fundraise and app 48 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,160 means greatest demands on reporting as we've heard plenty 49 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,360 of times over the last couple of years. 50 00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:05,120 I mean CF OS are now much more front and center in investor 51 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,400 relationships. And one of the key players in 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,800 this are of course, recruiters because naturally they see this 53 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,360 day in and day out. I spoke to Glenn Roberts from 54 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,440 recruitment firm Audio Partners to find out qualities that go 55 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,280 beyond what is on paper for candidates, where should the 56 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,640 search begin and thoughts on the next generation of CFOs. 57 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:36,840 So let's take a listen. Joining us on the Drawdown 58 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,600 podcast is Glenn Roberts, the Co founder and director of 59 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,480 recruitment firm Aria Partners. Welcome to the podcast, Glenn. 60 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,000 Thank you, Tanya. Yeah, very pleased to be here. 61 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:54,400 So of course you work a lot with clients looking to hire within 62 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,160 the fund finance base and also of course finance roles and GPS, 63 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:04,080 especially the CFO role. So as on today, the, you know, 64 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,160 the CFO role requires an individual to be connected to 65 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,840 all departments of the firm. So from a recruiter perspective, 66 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,800 where does the search begin? You know, how can the succession 67 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:19,240 planning team and the recruiter find these sort of Jack of all 68 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,360 trades CF OS? Sure. 69 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,680 I think I'm, I mean, really, really good question. 70 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,400 It, it goes with the evolution of the CFO role over, over the 71 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,400 last definitely accelerated in the last five to 10 years. 72 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,040 But going from a numbers, you know, very linear back office 73 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,480 type role to being at the forefront of a firm's growth and 74 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,240 development. I think a lot of these 75 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,840 characters exist in the existing kind of private markets 76 00:04:43,840 --> 00:04:46,640 ecosystem. There's plenty of fantastic 77 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,600 CFOs, finance directors I know who have embraced change, who've 78 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,880 moved beyond the numbers, getting behind data AI adoption 79 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,520 and really adding value rather than just being the sort of old 80 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,640 school counting room. I think the industry, the whole 81 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,880 really does struggle with bringing new people in. 82 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,520 It's it's the kind of blessing in the curse of Carrie in a lot 83 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,080 of private markets funds that you, you get a real entrenchment 84 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,960 of you kind of CFOs and finance directors who stay in a fund, 85 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,800 get to the top of the tree and then it becomes very difficult 86 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,320 for them to move on. If you have someone who's 87 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,080 forward thinking, who's embracing change, then happy 88 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,040 days, it all works. But if you have someone who's 89 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,560 wedded to the past, it can be a challenge for a firm to grow and 90 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,160 develop. So I think the industry as a 91 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,960 whole needs to get better at not not necessarily kind of moving 92 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,600 on senior folk before they want to move on, but I think having 93 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,840 good number twos really kind of, you know, investing in that kind 94 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:46,160 of second layer. The industry also is I think 95 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,360 getting better at looking outside of traditional. 96 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,080 You've worked in a private equity fund since you qualified 97 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,880 as an accountant sort of profiles and there's been a 98 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,000 number of CFOs I've seen in the last two to three years come in 99 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,440 from banking, insurance, broader asset wealth management. 100 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,160 And I think that really adds more diversity to the gene pool 101 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,400 more than anything. And a lot of those people bring 102 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,560 in, you know, kind of cross functional experience, cross 103 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:14,360 industry experience and can add a lot from outside traditional 104 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,720 private equity or private market sphere. 105 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,000 But I think first and foremost, it's it's identifying the sorts 106 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,280 of characters who have worked across function. 107 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:25,600 By and large, a CFO finance directory is going to be a 108 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,120 qualified accountant. You know, I have seen instances 109 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,040 where people have moved from the deal team or investor relations 110 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,920 or those sort of related areas into the CFO function. 111 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,360 But I really do think for the most part, you need to be a 112 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,080 numbers person first and foremost. 113 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,200 It's more around your mentality and how much you are embracing 114 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,280 the world we live in now and the speed with which it's 115 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:47,840 accelerating. What qualities do you 116 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:52,960 particularly look for for the CFO role that are not just on 117 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,320 paper that kind of go beyond the experience of what's on paper? 118 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,960 Yeah, of course. I think first and foremost that 119 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,040 CFO role is, is a, is a hugely strategic and commercial role in 120 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,480 in any organization. There's a big difference between 121 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,640 someone who's in the trenches wedded in the numbers versus 122 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,760 someone who's who stepped out of that and, you know, gone, gone 123 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,560 to the kind of next level being being a proper business partner, 124 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:16,840 being exactly what the board need. 125 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,440 You know, someone who's a sounding board, someone who's 126 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,400 the, who's this sort of commercial wingman or wing woman 127 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,520 to, to the firm. It's very, very difficult 128 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,280 sometimes to identify that just on CV value. 129 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,360 You know, you need, you really do need to kind of meet people, 130 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,160 talk through the examples of where they have supported board, 131 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,000 where they have worked on strategic projects, where 132 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,360 they've been part of a transformation program, they've 133 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,960 been part of fundraisers. They've seen a private equity or 134 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,160 a private markets firm through, you know, a period of growth and 135 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,120 not just being, you know, kind of keeping an eye on things as 136 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,160 they kind of tick along. And again, that just comes with 137 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,840 meeting people and, and drumming down into the specifics of their 138 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,960 experience. We call it battle scars. 139 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:02,320 It's, it's the sort of people that wander around with a, you 140 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,440 know, an eye patch on and a dodgy limp. 141 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,760 And they've been through the wars and they've been through 142 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,200 the trenches. And it's not an age thing at 143 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:10,840 all. You can develop that experience 144 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,640 really early on in your career. You could be 30 and have been, 145 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,760 you know, 10 rounds of Mike Tyson. 146 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,680 But by and large, it's those collective experiences, those 147 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,960 collective battle scars that a board is buying. 148 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,760 They want someone that they know when the going gets good. 149 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,800 This person knows how to take it up a level when things are 150 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,000 looking rocky. This person has got all the 151 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,679 skills at their disposal to to kind of weather the storm. 152 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,679 So a lot of these financial battlegrounds would really just 153 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,360 be the 2000 eights and COVID crisis and how to deal with 154 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,160 those. And is that what some of these 155 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,560 firms are looking for? I, I think so. 156 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:50,680 I don't think, again, I don't think it's necessarily an age 157 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:52,280 thing. What's been really, really 158 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,080 encouraging in the last 10 years is that more and more private 159 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,120 markets firms are bringing in and again, maybe probably 160 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,360 shouldn't touch on age too much, but it, but it is true. 161 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,120 You don't need to be in your 50s with Gray hair to be a CFO. 162 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:11,000 You can very quickly get to that role in your in your 30s if you 163 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,280 have the right experience. COVID, global financial crisis, 164 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,440 of course that helps, but you could have been at a fund that 165 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,320 you know has gone through its ups and downs during a more 166 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,880 stable market period. It's it's more around the 167 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,600 collective experiences you develop at some point in your 168 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,800 career. You can develop battle scars 169 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,280 really early on in your career. You know, you could have joined 170 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,480 a fund that's gone through exponential growth. 171 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,160 You've had incredible experience in the real formative point in 172 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,640 your career and you've and you've made it to that CFO 173 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,800 position, you know, at a younger age, or you could be someone 174 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,360 who's moved around multiple funds to gain those collective 175 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,640 experiences. I think it's more how you, you 176 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,560 sort of sell yourself and, and again, what's been super 177 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:54,600 encouraging over the last 10 years is, is that kind of CFO 178 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,360 role is it is quicker to reach now in private markets partly 179 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,400 down to growth. You know, private credit now for 180 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,360 example versus where it was 10 years ago is completely 181 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,440 unrecognizable. So, you know, diversity, more 182 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,320 funds, more strategies is going to create, you know, it's role 183 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,760 creation. It allows these kind of finance 184 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,120 directors, heads of finance to step into the CFO roles. 185 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,560 But but I think battle scars is, is exactly that. 186 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,880 You don't have to be, you know, an old pirate in the sort of 50s 187 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,640 and 60s to reach that point. You can, you can achieve it now 188 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,760 much earlier in your career. And likewise, you may well be in 189 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,360 your 50s before you hit your first CFO role. 190 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,400 It just depends, you know, what experience you've had, but but 191 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,040 collectively you've just got to develop those experiences to 192 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,080 speak to a lot of people who who want to be an FD and they're 193 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,040 gunning for the title and they're, you know, for obvious 194 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,640 reasons, keen as mustered to get to that point. 195 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,200 But their experience has been incredibly linear and static. 196 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,960 They've worked in one fund. They've not had a lot of this 197 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,840 kind of front loan strategic commercial experience and it's 198 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,360 very hard to sell that as the CFO in the waiting if you, you 199 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,880 know, like I said, if you've not gone 10 rounds with Mike Tyson 200 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:03,680 at some point. Yeah. 201 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:06,920 And looking at of course like the, the industry's view on the 202 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,920 CFO role itself, the views are largely, I've heard quite split 203 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,080 the role as an investment or a cost to the firm. 204 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,400 How do you think that perception will change in the next couple 205 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,080 of years, or even the next five years? 206 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:23,000 For sure. I think the great thing about 207 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,000 private markets is I've rarely speak to a CFO who feels that 208 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,960 there are cost for a bird. OK, maybe sometimes you know 209 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,320 when the going gets tough and they look at payroll and realise 210 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,120 they're the most expensive employee outside the partners. 211 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,600 But I look, I think look, I think for the most part private 212 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,360 markets and private markets are wonderfully forward thinking 213 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,320 industry. The value that CFO creates in 214 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,440 terms of especially nowadays moving beyond the reporting or 215 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,640 at least getting the reporting to a point where it's adding 216 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,800 value to the portfolio. It's enhancing, you know, both 217 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:59,000 GP as well as LP value. And I think those CFOs who have 218 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,280 moved beyond the sort of back office reporting to being more 219 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,240 forward thinking, supporting the deal team indirectly create a 220 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,760 huge amount of value. You know, it's what the LP's 221 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:11,480 have been wanting time and time again. 222 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,560 It's data, data, data, data. It's a, you know, kind of a data 223 00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:17,520 dopamine drip. So those CFOs who have tapped 224 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,880 into that mind that really, you know, are in that kind of 225 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,320 strategic commercial role are immediately adding value. 226 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,120 For sure. There are plenty of funds where 227 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,320 the mindset's old school that finances the, you know, kind of 228 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,520 back office and beyond, and it's a necessary evil to keep the 229 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,040 regulators at Bay. But I think that mindset was 230 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,760 left a long time ago and for the most part in private markets. 231 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,080 How important is it for the exiting CFO to be involved in 232 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,680 the hiring process? For sure. 233 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,320 Tricky one, especially if you're a CFO who is at the point of 234 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,280 retiring or exiting for whatever reason, and you especially if 235 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,400 you've been there for a long time. 236 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,680 It's that old, you know, big shoes to fill analogy. 237 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,960 I, I think it's important that the incumbent is involved in the 238 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,480 process, but they, they can't be the lead on the process. 239 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,840 That needs to be the partners or COO who who lead the charge as 240 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,080 far as deciding what that kind of profile is, There's been a 241 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,280 number of succession roles in the last few years with some 242 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,120 really big brand name thumbs too. 243 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,680 What's super interesting looking at the people who've come into 244 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:19,000 those roles, it's been to camps people. 245 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,720 Most encouragingly, there's been a huge amount of female talent 246 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,520 brought in both from within the private markets industry as well 247 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,400 as externally from banking, insurance for all the right 248 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,040 reasons. You know, the private markets 249 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,080 world is still very heavily male dominated and a lot of funds are 250 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,720 very conscious. They look at their board of 251 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,400 directors and it looks like a scene from the 1970s. 252 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:43,000 So bringing in good solid commercial female talent has 253 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,520 definitely, you know, made the world a better place. 254 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,680 I think in private markets, the number twos that have stepped up 255 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,600 have been very credible number twos as well. 256 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,440 I think there's a number of people I've seen move in the 257 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,240 last 12 months who who've been that sort of, you know that that 258 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,560 kind of CFO and waiting for a number of years have developed a 259 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:04,800 lot of battle scars. But they're of that newer 260 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,600 generation where they are, they've moved to my points 261 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:08,840 earlier. They may be on the kind of back 262 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,240 office numbers. It's more, you know, kind of 263 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,000 value enhancement, value creation using data AI tech, 264 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,320 accepting that the finance world will be a beautiful mass of 265 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,800 finance tech, IT data risk at some point in the future. 266 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,720 But I think that's been crucial to the survival of the industry. 267 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,840 But an incumbent needs to be part of the process for sure. 268 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,480 You know, it's, it's their sort of legacy that someone's going 269 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,360 to inherit. And there also needs to be a, 270 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,400 again, this can be for anyone who's recruited at this level 271 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,600 knows the biggest challenge is actually getting the partners to 272 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,120 agree on the sort of profile or agree that one person's going to 273 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:45,880 lead it on behalf of the partnership. 274 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,520 Otherwise, you know, you get sort of 2345 extremely 275 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,920 successful, opinionated people and they disagree on the sort of 276 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,640 profile that they want to want to hire. 277 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,200 But by and large, I think it's been a, it's been a really, 278 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,680 really good, you know, last 5-10 years for these sort of CFO 279 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,480 succession roles. But I think most firms are 280 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,960 pretty good at making sure they have a succession plan in place. 281 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,480 And there's been a number of people I've seen move a year 282 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,920 before the incumbent is due to retire. 283 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,720 So it gives plenty of time to, you know, kind of take on the 284 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,720 reins and gently ease yourself in. 285 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,360 Yeah. And so clearly we're going to 286 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,400 see more diversity in the senior management roles. 287 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,720 What do you think the next generation of CFOs are going to 288 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,080 look like? What would they need to like 289 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,480 start training now in? Really good question. 290 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,000 I actually had it at breakfast this exact question at breakfast 291 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,440 yesterday morning with a with the CFOCO I've known for for 292 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,680 donkeys years and he asked this exact question. 293 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,600 What, what is the future of accounting and private markets 294 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,840 look like with the, you know, the AI Armageddon that's going 295 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,640 to take over the world like a Will Smith film. 296 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,840 But I think in reality, it's, you're always going to need a 297 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,320 CFO there. And I think the generation, you 298 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,040 know, the, the people that are in their early 20s now that in 299 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,680 10/15/20 years will be CFOs will be a far more forward thinking 300 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,440 mix of numbers risk. It will have fully embraced tech 301 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,000 tech, especially in AI risk. You're always going to need 302 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,720 someone there to guide the ship, to interpret the numbers to, you 303 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,000 know, to kind of make sure that what if you have in the 304 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,600 background from an automation perspective, actually is 305 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,240 performing and doing its job. Where are these guys going to 306 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,200 come from is probably the bigger question because we're not 307 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:25,920 hiring at the junior level, are we really? 308 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,120 You know, the stats that are in the market at the moment about 309 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,600 junior level hiring across the board, all industries, all 310 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,720 sectors are kind of depressing to be honest. 311 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,600 I think the big four, big larger accounting firms, professional 312 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,520 services firms will be your sort of source of talent. 313 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,600 And those people will have come from a far more sort of nuanced 314 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,760 training and background that will enable them to be very 315 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,120 successful when they move into, you know, into a private markets 316 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,600 fund, into these leadership roles. 317 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,720 I don't think it's going to look 1,000,000 miles different. 318 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,680 You know, Fast forward 20 years from now, if you had a job spec 319 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,400 for a CFO, is it going to read remarkably different to role 320 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,120 now? I think it will in a lot of 321 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,599 respects, but you know, numbers interpretation of the numbers, 322 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:09,119 using numbers to enhance value drive performance of a business 323 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,880 will still be the the underlying core. 324 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,800 Yeah, it's. Definitely very interesting 325 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,119 about the junior talent aspect because even investment banks 326 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,599 are putting loyalty oats and check insurance with their 327 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:22,119 junior bankers to make sure they don't get, they don't go to 328 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,440 private equity sooner. So that's that's every very 329 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,240 interesting. And before we wrap up of course 330 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,120 for a manager right now mid market manager right now they 331 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:35,680 are just about to begin their, I guess first CFO succession 332 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,960 planning. What are some best practices 333 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,640 they should keep in mind before they begin the search? 334 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,680 I think as a starting point, figure out what you want. 335 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,760 I know that may sound like ridiculously obvious, the amount 336 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,040 of firms that go out to market, as I mentioned earlier with 337 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,600 conflicting views of what the firm needs. 338 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,000 You need to agree who's the point? 339 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,760 All those kind of communications internally need to have happened 340 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,040 and you need to have a very clear list of what's important 341 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,640 in the role in terms of background level, what skills 342 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,920 you're after, both technical skills, softer skills, cover of 343 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,520 all the obvious questions internally, it's crazy how many 344 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,480 firms there's someone there who's maybe thinking they're the 345 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,080 number 2 and that if the CFO is going to move on that they've 346 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,000 got the job. But there may be two junior 347 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,760 couple of roles I've worked like that in the last few years where 348 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,600 the communications internally have been a bit not been great. 349 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,360 So you're going out externally to the market and you've not 350 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,960 nipped that in the bud internally and told someone who 351 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,880 is the kind of, you know, the sort of the slightly more junior 352 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,280 but masses of potential person that they're not quite there 353 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,760 yet. So internal comms is key, but 354 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,240 but agreeing that brief upfront and making sure that you 355 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:45,040 understand the market you're going into the CFO recruitment 356 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:46,520 should always be retained search. 357 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,960 You need one person you trust and to go out there to sell you 358 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,560 to find the very best talent in the market possible. 359 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,120 And I always sort of worry when I hear if I mean it doesn't 360 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,600 happen that often, but a finance director or CFO role, it's out 361 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,080 with multiple agencies, you question the commitment to hire 362 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,240 and and that sort of thing. But that brief has to be 363 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,240 absolutely crystal clear because your message to the market, 364 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,520 white noise, etcetera, it's got to be very, very clear around, 365 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,040 you know what you're looking for in the hire. 366 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,760 That's all the time we have for today. 367 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,880 Thank you so much, Glenn. Thanks so much, Tanya. 368 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,320 Interesting to get Glenn's perspective there. 369 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,640 I think it's a fascinating time for recruitment, not just within 370 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,960 private markets but more generally across the economy 371 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,760 right now as businesses grapple with changing working practices 372 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,240 and processes. There were parallels in his 373 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,160 comments with conversations I've been having recently about 374 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,520 hiring for tech or data focus roles and the priority of 375 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,520 finding strategic thinkers for those roles. 376 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,880 It seems to me that across private markets right now, a 377 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,520 greater emphasis is being put on personality and soft skills even 378 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,320 within the back office and the expense of some of those 379 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,440 technical skills, which maybe would have been seen as, you 380 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,840 know, the priority in the past. And actually, I suspect that 381 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,960 this might be a wider trend across the economy, as you know, 382 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,560 the consequence of AI adoption in the years to come becomes. 383 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:22,520 You know, more embedded and more apparent. 384 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,360 Something else I thought was interesting from the 385 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:27,880 conversation was his point about the need to bring new thinking 386 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,240 into firms as the CFO role evolves. 387 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:35,320 We have heard in the past concerns very experienced 388 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,880 operational leaders that younger generations are yet to build up 389 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,560 their resilience having lived through relatively mild 390 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,800 macroeconomic environments today. 391 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,560 So in that context, I thought his point that so-called battle 392 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,560 scars are being highly valued was interesting. 393 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,400 Yeah, absolutely. Agreed. 394 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,840 In particular, the point around experience with crisis 395 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,720 situations is a big one. It's brought up every time at 396 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,240 the Operational Leaders Summit on different panels. 397 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,480 Actually. I think there's just the general 398 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,920 Bori that sort of the post 2008 professional generations, they 399 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,800 haven't had to navigate early choppy waters and therefore lack 400 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,040 the experience to do so in a leading role when history 401 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,320 inevitably repeats itself one way or another. 402 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,920 And navigating those crisis situations is not something that 403 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,160 you can really teach someone. It's one of those mistakes you 404 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,720 have to make for yourself if you want to apply that metaphor to 405 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,080 other points. And I found particularly 406 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,160 interesting are the remarks about individuals who want to 407 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,000 move from the front to the back of his roles. 408 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,840 Because last year I'm moderated a panel and they brought up 409 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,080 almost the opposite point where in the hiring process you have 410 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,760 to spot the people who actually clearly want to sit on the 411 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,560 investment team and are hoping that the back office is actually 412 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,600 sort of a back door into those roles. 413 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,560 And one and that on with this other point that Steve a highly 414 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,040 St. strategic and commercial role, to me, these two together 415 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,760 kind of suggests suggests a change in perception about how 416 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,720 these roles are viewed. Because I think there previously 417 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,360 was the image of in air quotes, just an accountant where it's 418 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,920 clearly waning away in favour of one which is more in tune with 419 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,240 what the role demands and function fulfills. 420 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:32,000 And I think that the reality of what CFOs do day in, day out has 421 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,720 sort of been also reached the the industry perception around 422 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,880 them. Yeah, I definitely agree with 423 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,600 you both. I guess on the point of the next 424 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,680 generation, there's already a level of anxiety on what the 425 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,520 future holds for them across industries. 426 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,320 And, you know, all these aspects of change in perception to 427 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,600 change in skills required for these roles are all intertwined. 428 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,440 We cannot talk about 1 without the other. 429 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:02,680 Right. We're pretty out of time. 430 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,960 So before we wrap up, do you both want to give us a little 431 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,080 bit of a preview into what to expect from the drawdown in the 432 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,120 coming weeks? So I'm working on another long 433 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:16,600 form feature about the challenges of standardizing 434 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,000 processes. Accounting is largely 435 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,160 standardized across the industry, but can the same be 436 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,640 said about investor attack onboarding or data processes? 437 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,720 I'm also looking at potential risks of not standardizing some 438 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,320 functions at AGP. And, as always, there are also 439 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:40,000 some upcoming GP profiles. Yeah, I have two sort of 440 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,920 features to often note. One of them is a bit of an 441 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:49,320 answer to cover feature I wrote last year about fund 442 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,840 administration and its PE backers. 443 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,040 And in that cover feature was pointed out to me that the role 444 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,960 of fund administrators needs to evolve. 445 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,360 So I've now gone and spoken to fund administrators on how they 446 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:04,360 think about this. And then there's another feature 447 00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:07,760 I'm working on on the difference between climate risk and ESG, 448 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,440 which is becoming their own different functions almost 449 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,000 within GP. So I'm looking at the 450 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,400 operational implications of this divide. 451 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,920 And completely unrelated to all of those, but going back to 452 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,200 Tanya's A reference to Hitchcock in the intro, I'd be very 453 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,880 curious, what is your favorite Hitchcock movie? 454 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,480 Putting me on the spot there. I don't know. 455 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,320 Yeah. Yeah, I'll have to think about 456 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,960 that. Yeah, I like. 457 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,560 So I'm always looking for the smart choice, right? 458 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,240 Like pretentious choice. So maybe I'd say something like, 459 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,080 right? Fact that that is definitely the 460 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,560 pretentious choice. The technical aspects right of 461 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,920 the kind of workshop idea that would be my suggestion for Tanya 462 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,920 some time. You know, because the title of 463 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,640 the cover story on CFO succession planning was to Catch 464 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,520 a chief. I will say to Catch a thief. 465 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,760 OK, that's fair. Yeah, yeah, very good. 466 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,360 OK, that's definitely enough from us today. 467 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:10,040 So all it leads me to say is thank you, Tanya. 468 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,640 Thank you, Matthias. Obviously, a big thank you to 469 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,120 Glen, our guest today as well. And most importantly, thank you 470 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:17,120 to everyone for listening.