1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,510 Hello and welcome to Top of the OPS, a podcast brought to you by 2 00:00:10,510 --> 00:00:14,070 The Drawdown. Each episode we take a look at 3 00:00:14,070 --> 00:00:17,360 private markets but from a slightly different angle, so 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,840 rather than be distracted by the latest deals done, we examine 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:22,440 the nuts and bolts of the market. 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,840 It's intrinsic architecture to reveal how private markets firms 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,680 really operate. My name is John Whitaker, I'm 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,960 the editor of The Drawdown and host for this episode where 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,200 we'll be looking at gender diversity and in particular the 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,720 role of family leave in reducing gender bias within the industry 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,280 and in attracting and retaining talent. 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:47,200 To help me untangle this naughty topic, I'm joined once again by 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,800 Tanya Kushal and Matthias Plotz, reporter and deputy editor at 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,360 The Drawdown respectively. How are you both? 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,160 Doing well. I'm a little bit surprised we 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:02,120 don't have any nicknames today. Yeah, I was going to say no 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,480 obscure nicknames today. John, are you OK? 18 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,520 Is everything all right at home? Well, what can I say, it's 2026, 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,920 new year, new me. They might return next episode, 20 00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:15,240 we'll see. Anyway, we have limited time, so 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,560 let's turn to today's topic, which broaches gender diversity 22 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,240 in private markets. Tanya, you've been looking into 23 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,920 this actually recently, haven't you, for an article you've been 24 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,920 working on. And look, the research suggests 25 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,640 that we are still very far from seeing a level playing field 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,480 across the industry, right? Yes, that's exactly right. 27 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,600 And the story I'm working on looks at hostility and 28 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,000 discrimination more broadly, not just from a gender lens, because 29 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,320 gender often intersects with other areas. 30 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,600 And the main lead to the story was that there's a stack of 31 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,360 discrimination lawsuits against private equity firms that are 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,160 still alive. Yes, yeah. 33 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,080 And, and the concerns about inclusion go far beyond the 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:00,600 industry that we're concerned with. 35 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,560 Of course, my interest was piqued by a McKinsey report 36 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,680 which came out I think in December at the end of last 37 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,000 year, examining women in in corporate America or the, you 38 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,480 know, the, the, the representation of women in 39 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:21,120 corporate America more broadly. And it may for pretty Sabre 40 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,480 reading. Though the largest US firms have 41 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,040 modestly increased the proportion of senior roles held 42 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,240 by women, this report picked up that there's a clear trend of 43 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,000 scaling back diversity and inclusion programs and a 44 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,000 reduction in flexible working allowances that tend to, as we 45 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,760 know, disproportionately benefit women. 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,520 Such a stark contrast. So one of my best red cover 47 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,960 features for 2024 was a piece that I called Ecosystemic Change 48 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,160 about diversity and inclusion in private markets. 49 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,360 Specifically sort of looking at how firms from an operations 50 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,320 perspective, what frameworks they've come up with, what 51 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,480 strategies they've come up with to create an inclusive 52 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,080 environment, which then sort of should naturally foster 53 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,440 diversity. And at the time when I was 54 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,920 researching that, my sources said that USLPS asked way more 55 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:18,600 questions about DEI and collected more data points 56 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:20,600 within sort of the individual questions. 57 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,720 When you compare them to European LP's, they asked for 58 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,240 things like veteran status and disabilities. 59 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,840 Whereas for European LP's, as one source put it, diversity 60 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,280 sort of stops at white women. And it's only been a year and a 61 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,720 half since that cover feature came out, and that small part of 62 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,480 it, compared to the McKinsey report you mentioned reads like 63 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,960 a totally different world. We're going to turn our 64 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,280 attention to the main focus of today's podcast, which is 65 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,360 looking at the role of family leave within private markets 66 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,120 specifically as part of this wider conversation. 67 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,160 And to that end, we've invited Gopri Manki to talk to us. 68 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,200 She's the CEO of Level 20, which champions gender diversity in 69 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,640 private markets, and it has recently published a number of 70 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,880 reports looking at the impact of family lead policies across the 71 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,399 private markets industry. So let's hear from her now. 72 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,320 I'm delighted to welcome Gurpreet Manku to the podcast. 73 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,240 She is the CEO of Level 20, a not-for-profit organization 74 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,600 focused on improving gender diversity in private equity and 75 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,240 venture capital. Gurpreet began her career at 76 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,800 Deloitte before spending a decade at the recently renamed 77 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,640 BBCA, and she became Level 20 CEO in 2023. 78 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,400 Gurpreet, thank you for joining me. 79 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:47,960 Thank you for having me, it's great to be here. 80 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,320 Pleasure, right? So Level 20 published a pan 81 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,280 European report on family leave in private equity in 2024 and 82 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:59,200 then you followed that up last year with some country by 83 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,960 country analysis. Why did you want to research 84 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,920 this topic in so much detail? So family leave was a topic that 85 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,440 kept coming up in our conversations with members with 86 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,480 firms in the industry and it kept coming through in other 87 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,480 research we were doing specifically around the role of 88 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,160 family leave when it comes to attracting and retaining talent. 89 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,640 And a key finding in our work was that when you enable parents 90 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,120 to take time out of the business and come back into private, 91 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,200 which is typically a high, highly paced, high intensity 92 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,600 environment. And if you help them get back 93 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,200 into the deal flow and into that environment in a supportive way, 94 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,800 that will help with the retention of talent. 95 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,520 So we published this research to give our members and the 96 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,480 industry data to assist with their conversations and help 97 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,640 guide them with their policy development. 98 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:59,080 And the report set out information on leave offered, 99 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,880 leave taken and also some of the other support options out there. 100 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,600 Now our work has expanded, as you said, because there's been 101 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:11,800 demand to do more country specific work, but also to share 102 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,600 experiences and insights, both from individuals but also at a 103 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,000 firm level. So now we have this 104 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:25,880 complementary set of reports, guides, interviews, articles and 105 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,000 also events. So I guess the suggestion there 106 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:36,320 is that the level of knowledge, transparency and understanding 107 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,960 about what other firms are offering in the industry, it has 108 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,360 not always been there. And so actually part of the job 109 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,640 you're trying to fill in there is actually raise awareness of 110 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,480 where these policies have been really effective and and share 111 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,000 some of those stories, right? Yeah, absolutely. 112 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:56,400 The just being able to to understand what other firms in 113 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,440 your AUM banding other firms in the market are doing is also 114 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,920 helpful not just for the firms themselves, but for the people 115 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,760 that work there. And as you know, our our work 116 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,080 covered maternity leave, tend to leave and shared parental leave. 117 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,680 And what we did was not just publish the data, but publish 118 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,120 all the insights we had received through our feedback, whether it 119 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,920 was through focus groups, structured interviews and also 120 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,840 all our cumulative research that we've done to date. 121 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,080 So I think the hardest part was being able to just encapsulate 122 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,880 that and summarize that. But there was definitely a 123 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,520 thirst for further feedback on what the market was doing 124 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,040 because it is and has been an evolving area. 125 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,880 Yeah. And as you kind of highlighted 126 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,960 the the findings of your research suggests that family 127 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,200 policies have quite an effective defensive strategy for staff 128 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,080 retention, right. But do you think that the 129 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,240 leadership of PE firms should make more of an effort to 130 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,160 accurately weigh the cost of these policies against the cost 131 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,760 of replacing talent? Because that's where people's 132 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,160 minds go straight away when you talk about these things. 133 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,640 Is that the upfront costs of implementing them, right? 134 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,840 So my view is that firms do already view costs through the 135 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,160 lens of organizational resilience and retention of 136 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,760 talent as people are a crucial part of our business. 137 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,760 This is a people, people driven business. 138 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,680 Firms work really hard to bring talent in. 139 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,720 They're incredibly competitive as an industry. 140 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,080 And I know they've been investing in their approach to 141 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,400 talent management and family leave. 142 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,240 And we could see that in our data. 143 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,600 So 84% of the firms that we surveyed, and there were about 144 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:38,600 120 firms surveyed, had either recently reviewed or in the 145 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,720 process of reviewing their policies when it came to family 146 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,120 leave. When you think about costs, 80% 147 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,000 of the firms offered enhanced maternity pay and 74% of them 148 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,440 offered enhanced paternity leave. 149 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,720 And given the sort of number of European firms in our data set, 150 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,560 we also saw that 1/3 of firms equalized paternity leave with 151 00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:00,680 maternity leave, and that's at the enhanced level. 152 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:05,160 So from a cost perspective, you know, my view is that firms have 153 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,080 already been thinking about it and against some of the benefits 154 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,240 that having, you know, a more inclusive culture has. 155 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,200 Yeah. And it's interesting you say 156 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:21,680 that about the offering that the ultimate enhanced kind of 157 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:25,240 package where you've equalized between paternity and and 158 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,840 maternity, because I guess there's, there's offering it and 159 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,640 then there's having a culture within firms where people 160 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:36,240 actually take it up, right. And my, you know, my perception 161 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,680 is that actually the take up rate is still relatively limited 162 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,320 for those kind of extended packages. 163 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,720 And, and obviously this isn't just related to this industry. 164 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,600 So I think the latest UK statistics say show just 5% of 165 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,160 eligible men used the government's official share 166 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:59,280 parental leave scheme, right. And you argue that normalizing 167 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,040 paternity leave is key to creating the inclusive culture. 168 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,520 But how much can private markets firms do themselves to increase 169 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:11,280 the the take up by men when more broadly there's challenges in in 170 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,840 in winning that argument? So I think this situation is is 171 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,680 evolving. I think it's moving. 172 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:19,920 Our research showed firms had increased the overall offer when 173 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,520 it came to paternity leave and 1/3 of firms had equalized 174 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,480 paternity leave with maternity. So the question is around take 175 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,360 up. Now we knew a lot of men were 176 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,760 interested in in the topic as well because level 20 is an open 177 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,200 network and we know based on the feedback that we've received 178 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,480 since the report was published nearly two years ago that men 179 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,160 have also been using it in their discussions. 180 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,680 And when we speak to firms, we hear that more men at junior and 181 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:53,080 mid level are also starting to take up the leave from paternity 182 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,720 leave and shared parental leave. So you might see some changes in 183 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,320 those numbers next time we publish this report. 184 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,960 One firm said to me that they were encouraging the men in 185 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,520 their team to take leave. So when the first woman had a 186 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,320 child, it was just past practice and precedence. 187 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,320 It wasn't a big deal, which I thought was quite nice. 188 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,920 What Level 20 can do is share data, but we can also share 189 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,600 feedback from people around their own experience and we've 190 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,920 been quite keen to showcase the examples of senior men. 191 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,000 So that's an MD or partner level, talking about their 192 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,040 experiences, taking potential shared parental leave, talking 193 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,600 about how it impacted their career. 194 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,640 You've got examples where people were promoted once, once they 195 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,880 got back from leave, but also, but mostly it was just about how 196 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,360 they do it. So I think just increasing 197 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:47,520 visibility on how parents are juggling their family 198 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,160 responsibilities with their work responsibilities, how their 199 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,200 firms have supported them is really is really helpful because 200 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,840 like I said, I think this is an evolving picture. 201 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,240 You note it's not just unique to our industry. 202 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,720 And what we can do is just give that forum for parents to talk 203 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,560 about how they're managing it in our events. 204 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,120 We've been running through our events series, sorry, we've been 205 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,160 running parental coffee clubs on Friday mornings, which has been 206 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,960 really popular. And that's not just for and the 207 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,560 core private industry will involve some of our associate 208 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:23,240 members, law firm partners and and so forth. 209 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,520 And it's just a nice opportunity for people to get together and 210 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,400 share tips with each other, whether it's around childcare 211 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,000 providers and and other other suggestions. 212 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:38,240 And what's also coming through in the discussions that we're 213 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,600 having is that this isn't just about children, because we're 214 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,840 that generation who have elderly parents now as well. 215 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,120 And that is starting to come through into conversations. 216 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,840 We are busy people. We care about our careers. 217 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,760 We're quite committed to the work that we do. 218 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,760 So question is about how do you manage periods of leave, could 219 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,440 be to look after children, It could be to look after other 220 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,160 relatives and then get back into the the workplace afterwards. 221 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,760 So it's an ongoing conversation and I expect to see movement on 222 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,360 it in in future years. Yeah, it's, it's really 223 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,200 interesting speaking around this because I guess you look at kind 224 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:23,360 of wider reporting around kind of DNI issues from a global 225 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,720 perspective. And obviously you, you know, 226 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:31,080 you, you can't, you know, avoid kind of the, the levels of kind 227 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,360 of push back and animosity towards those types of things 228 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,920 that you see, particularly in the US and, and, and you can get 229 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,400 in position where you worry about how much that kind of 230 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,960 changes the discourse at, at coming global level. 231 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,200 But it seems like you're from your experience, Pete, speaking 232 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,120 to people within the industry that you're still seeing 233 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,760 progression in this. You're not seeing a regression 234 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,920 at all and and firms are still committed to being, you know, 235 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,320 you know, a great number of firms looking to enhance their 236 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,360 packages and hopefully a greater number of individuals being 237 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,240 interested in in in taking up those opportunities as well. 238 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,000 We're definitely hearing that through our conversations. 239 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,240 And when we look at back at the the Pan European report, most of 240 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,400 the data actually came from firms that were headquartered in 241 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,920 the UK or headquartered in the rest of Europe. 242 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,320 And then what was really interesting was the, the level 243 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,800 of maternity leave offered was fairly consistent. 244 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,320 But like we were saying that the parental, the paternity leave 245 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,840 sorry offering was it was typically more for those 246 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:40,960 European headquartered firms. When you look at the data set, 247 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,520 actually so many of the firms had offices throughout the world 248 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:50,320 and around 40% of them were developing their family leave 249 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,720 policies with local country input. 250 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,320 So those perceptions of fairness across offices are taken into 251 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,600 account. But when it comes to country 252 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,520 specific dynamics, I think that's why we've been investing 253 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,160 in further work in country because it's also social norms 254 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,320 and market practice that come into play. 255 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,960 I think this is an ongoing conversation, right? 256 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,640 The picture is involved, evolving. 257 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,640 So what's really helpful for forums at level 20 is to bring 258 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,560 people together. So we'll have the data analysis, 259 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,920 but what's often more helpful is the conversation around how 260 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,200 people are are approaching it. And there's quite a lot of 261 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,880 variability, but there's also a lot of commonality. 262 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,480 And I can't sit here and say to you, these types of firms do 263 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,320 this thing and this type of firm approaches it this way because 264 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:46,200 in practice it's quite broad and it's often dependent on on the 265 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,760 individual as well. Yeah. 266 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,280 But so, yeah, it's, it's a mixed picture, but essentially you're 267 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,120 saying you're, you're you're positive about kind of the 268 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,360 direction of travel and, and, and what you're reading from the 269 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,200 data. One thing before we move on to 270 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,240 the final question. I just intrigued about those, 271 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,160 those parent sessions, parent coffee mornings that's not 272 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,960 parent and baby copy mornings. OK, yeah, I was just checking. 273 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,000 Yeah, yeah. As an alternative to doing kind 274 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,920 of baby yoga or something, you could come and yeah. 275 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:20,920 To the level 20 every quarter the team will try and find a a 276 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,200 coffee spot on a Friday and it's usually from 10 so you can drop 277 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,680 the older kids off 1st from 10. And it's just just around 278 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,000 London, so where people typically live as opposed to 279 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,720 central London. So those those sessions are 280 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,960 quite nice. Babies are definitely welcome 281 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,720 that they do very well on social media. 282 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,880 OK, yeah, I bet, I bet. OK, so before. 283 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:41,880 We send you an invite to. Them. 284 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,600 No, please do Yeah, I'll bring my daughter along yeah. 285 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,000 So kind of moving on to the final question I had to you. 286 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:50,560 I thought it was really interesting. 287 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,520 You say it's a mixed pitch here right. 288 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,640 So I think your research suggests that there's a gap 289 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,560 between perception and reality when it it comes to the typical 290 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,520 family leave packages across the industry, because you found that 291 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,960 46 and believe their policies are are the same as their 292 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,079 competitors. And yet there's actually huge 293 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:10,480 variance, right, in terms of of what is actually offered. 294 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,800 So do you think, and obviously, I imagine you will be supportive 295 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,440 of this idea because that's, you know, what level 20 does. 296 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,240 But do you recognize that there's more work to be done in 297 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,680 terms of better comms on this issue and actually more of a 298 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:29,240 role for firms who have embraced this to to be more of champions 299 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,920 of, you know, offering enhanced pack of family packages and, and 300 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,160 promoting the the benefits that that they derive from them? 301 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,560 I was. Starting to see the promotion of 302 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,760 the packages offered before anyway. 303 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,560 But once the research was published, accompanied by case 304 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,440 studies, interviews, we could, we could see it was helping with 305 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,240 the broader conversation because it was the first time such a 306 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,240 broad data set had been published. 307 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,320 So firms probably didn't have access to that information 308 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,040 before. They probably didn't really know 309 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,160 or they might have had quite a small sample to figure out if 310 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,920 they were in line with their peer group. 311 00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:08,000 And the feedback that I've been getting at a firm level has been 312 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,920 that this has been incredibly helpful to them. 313 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,160 I've had people come to me and say that their firm has changed 314 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,160 their policy. I they've enhanced that the 315 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,480 policy further and, and you know, long may that continue. 316 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,160 We will revise that European data set in a couple of years 317 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,040 time, but for now, we're continuing to work on it at a 318 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,760 country level. And on the championing front, I 319 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,040 think the interviews that we've been doing have been incredibly 320 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,640 helpful because they're giving personal perspectives and at the 321 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,560 end of the day, that's what people want to hear. 322 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,080 So how did she do it? She's a partner, she's got three 323 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,760 kids. How did she do it? 324 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,120 How does he do it? He, you know, he's the head of a 325 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,840 head of a region for his firm and how does he juggle it with 326 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,360 two, two sons? And the, and all our 327 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:58,360 interviewees have been very honest about how they've 328 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:00,560 approached things. They've and I think that's 329 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:05,800 what's, what's what's been received so well by our network. 330 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,480 So we'll keep doing that. You know, we call it the 331 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,200 Printing in PE series. But you know, other, other 332 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,600 sectors also also welcome. I think just getting out more 333 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,480 feedback helps because sometimes you don't know what you could be 334 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,040 doing or what you should be doing because as you can 335 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,600 appreciate, some of the firms in this industry are still quite 336 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,160 small organizations. Yeah. 337 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,720 And even the the very large ones are still still quite relatively 338 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,920 small compared to other bigger markets out there. 339 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,960 So bigger companies out there rather. 340 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,760 So I think just having more feedback and people sharing 341 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,840 their perspectives really helps. Yeah. 342 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,800 And it's, you know, here at the drawdown, we're very conscious 343 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,080 of someone like ACFO quite often has to manage various different, 344 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:55,200 you know, functions within P firms, quite often the HR 345 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,160 function as well. And so for them, any kind of 346 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,840 information being able to benchmark against other firms as 347 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,960 you say similar AUM how people are are dealing with this and 348 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,760 hearing success stories is, is you know going to be really 349 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,000 valuable to them as well. I think the one data point that 350 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,640 really helped this conversation, certainly from my perspective, 351 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:21,520 was we were for the first time be able to quite clearly say 352 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:27,240 that women in deal teams who'd gone on maternity leave were 353 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,520 still with their firms three years later because there was a 354 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,080 perception that women were having children leaving. 355 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,200 And that wasn't true. That wasn't that wasn't the case 356 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,920 in our data proved that nothing, just even having that data point 357 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,960 out there was incredibly helpful. 358 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,320 Because then it goes back to your point about investing in in 359 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,880 the processes, the coaching, taking the time out to do kid 360 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,760 days properly. You know, thinking about, you 361 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,440 know, the whole period of leave and the return, return from 362 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,120 leave as well. And it is all it all seems to be 363 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:01,760 going in the right direction. OK, well, look, I think as you 364 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,320 say, your research will continue. 365 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,240 It'd be brilliant to kind of circle back on this when the 366 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,200 next time your report on this comes out and we can compare the 367 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,360 data. And hopefully, as you know, 368 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:15,480 you're, you seem to be sensing we will see further progress in 369 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,920 this area. And in the meantime, I might see 370 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,120 you at the the next parenting coffee morning. 371 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:22,040 Yeah. That'll be brilliant. 372 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:22,800 Thank you. OK. 373 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,240 Well, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on 374 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,040 the podcast, Gurpreet. Thank you for having me. 375 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,880 Great to hear from Gurpreet there. 376 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,920 And I've got to say I was pleasantly surprised by the 377 00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,080 level of positivity in her responses. 378 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,160 And I, I guess you know, there's, there is that general 379 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,320 fear that we may be going backwards slightly on some of 380 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,120 these issues. So to hear that in the research 381 00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:56,560 that they've done, things are moving in a positive direction 382 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:02,760 in terms of packages offered by firms in Europe and also in 383 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,160 terms of the take up rate. And obviously, you know, they 384 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,120 are trying to do a lot of to to support that and, and promote an 385 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:12,480 advocate for it. It's probably the point in the 386 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,760 podcast where I should confess that I have, you know, somewhat 387 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:21,680 of a maybe not vested interest, but a bias here and that I, I 388 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,760 took shared parental leave myself when my, when my daughter 389 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,480 was born. And you know, I, I'm a huge 390 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,680 advocate for it. I think, you know, from a 391 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:36,000 selfish perspective, you know, I found the, the experience, you 392 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,120 know, hugely educational and valuable and a wonderful period 393 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,160 of time that I spent with my daughter. 394 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,800 But also I think it's an important thing for for men to 395 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,440 try and step up and do. And, you know, it's not just 396 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,000 obviously it's not just for our benefit, but to more normalize 397 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,800 it. Ultimately is is is to the 398 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:01,520 benefit of to to women in in society as well. 399 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,080 Yeah, well, my parents took shared parental leave when I was 400 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,600 born. I mean, they did have the 401 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,880 advantage that they were both government employees and they of 402 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,920 course get more benefits. But if I remember correctly, 403 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,000 during my high school time, my mom took another round of like 404 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,040 family leave or like parental leave again, just to help me 405 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,920 because I was like really stressed out and need help with 406 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,000 my A levels. So she took some time off and, 407 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,160 and she said she could do that until I was 18. 408 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,920 And that's quite interesting that, you know, parents should 409 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,840 be able to take care of their kids at every second point in 410 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,680 their life, not just when they're born. 411 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,800 And I think that's also another concept that firms should look 412 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,640 into. And and Matthias, out of one of 413 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,480 our recent events, right, we were hearing similar arguments 414 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,880 in a closed door session, right? Yeah, actually. 415 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:01,000 So the the conversation just now reminded me of two points that 416 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:06,560 was raised at the last operational leaders Summit in in 417 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,120 Portugal last year. And one of them was when it 418 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:14,160 comes to the broader discussion around talent and especially how 419 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,880 you retain talent, there's obviously always a financial 420 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,480 package conversation to be had around that. 421 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,200 And particularly for the smaller firms, there is often a worry 422 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,400 that they simply cannot compete on compensation packages with 423 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,840 larger firms. That is just not on the table. 424 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,760 Their pockets aren't that deep. But the point was made that 425 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:41,200 creating very strong policies or empowering policies for your 426 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:47,040 employees around things like parental leave is one way of 427 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,480 retaining staff in the long term. 428 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,280 And I thought another point that was made, which I thought was 429 00:24:54,280 --> 00:25:01,400 very interesting was that having policies and especially policies 430 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,360 that in the past maybe have been there but haven't necessarily 431 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:07,040 that the take up hasn't been great. 432 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,480 Let's say for example, parental leave, which I think 433 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:15,160 historically parental leave. So for fathers hasn't really 434 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,600 that take up hasn't been great. So what they have done is 435 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,520 they've actively encouraged the senior male staff members to 436 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,720 whom the situation was applicable, of course, to go and 437 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,000 take parental leave. Because that kind of ingrains it 438 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,840 for one in a company culture, but also signals to everyone 439 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,440 down the food chain that it is OK to take that leave. 440 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,480 And for lack of better words, your career will still be there 441 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,080 when you come back. I think this is a conversation 442 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,360 we can carry on for quite a while, right? 443 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:50,280 It's just going to be interesting to see how these 444 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,040 policies expand and, and, and evolve over time. 445 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,960 And I think as Gurpreet suggested, they'll be doing 446 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,280 their own research, repeating it in the next couple of years, so 447 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,000 we can compare and contrast and see whether her, her 448 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,920 expectations of things continue to improve are borne out by the 449 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,400 data, right. So before we leave, guys, it's 450 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,560 your opportunity to have a little plug of articles that 451 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,360 you're working on at the moment. So Tanya, can I ask you first 452 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:26,280 just to give our listeners a little sneak peek into things 453 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:27,560 that you're working on at the moment? 454 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,440 Of course. So kind of staying on topic, I 455 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:41,200 am looking at hostility against women and anybody not male and 456 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,720 not white in the private equity world. 457 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,920 And what why is that still happening? 458 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,240 So apart from that, I am looking at also the European way of 459 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,520 doing GP stakes. So that's another interesting 460 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:58,320 one. Great. 461 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:06,160 OK, Matthias, how about you? So I've been tasked, we're 462 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,400 writing the first sort of cover feature of the year, which is 463 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,560 going to be looking at the question of what should or what 464 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,240 could count as a fund cost. And I'm really sinking my teeth 465 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,360 into that right now. The other one that I've got 466 00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:25,760 coming up is I'm looking into the challenges and hopefully 467 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,920 couple of solutions around running multi currency funds 468 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,400 which you often use to broaden your appeal to to multiple 469 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,400 investors by making the investments available in 470 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,240 different currencies. And then I've also got a couple 471 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,520 of entries in our ongoing profile series coming up and I 472 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,320 think that's that's it for the moment. 473 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,760 Yeah, to catch up on all of that great content which is going to 474 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,480 be coming very soon, make sure to check out the Drawdown 475 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,400 website. In the meantime, it just leaves 476 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,000 us to say thank you to all of you for listening. 477 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,040 Thank you to Matthias and Tanya for helping me out. 478 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,760 Thank you very much. Well, thank you for having me. 479 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,520 Yeah. And of course, thank you for 480 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,680 Geoffrey for being our guest on this episode. 481 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,200 Until next time, see you later.