1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,100 Welcome to another episode of PE talks. 2 00:00:09,500 --> 00:00:13,000 I'm Alice, and I'm the editor of the drawdown today. 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,800 We're thinking about Lessons Learned and I couldn't think of 4 00:00:15,808 --> 00:00:18,100 a more perfect interviewee for this theme. 5 00:00:18,900 --> 00:00:22,300 It's an honor and pleasure to welcome Steve Darrington, CFO 6 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:24,600 and partner at Phoenix Equity Partners. 7 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:29,300 Steve has been CFO Phoenix, since 2001 and as well as this 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,100 Civ tenure at the P firm. He's also held corporate roles 9 00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:37,400 notably at The Economist. He's also known for his 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:38,800 dazzling. Poker career. 11 00:00:38,900 --> 00:00:41,900 Something he's been active in since the tender age of 14. 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,900 Now, I have an easy job today, as I'll be handing over to Sam 13 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:50,400 Marsh managing director of alpha FX to do the interview Sam set 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,400 up our office, institutional division, back in 2018, a 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,300 specialist working with the alternative asset Market 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,300 covering risk management products and its alternative. 17 00:01:01,300 --> 00:01:04,700 Banking Solutions. Welcome Sam and Steve. 18 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:08,100 Thank you very much, Alice and Steve. 19 00:01:08,100 --> 00:01:11,100 Thank you very much for being a part of the conversation this 20 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:13,600 morning. Hello, sir, as Alice mentioned, 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,000 obviously majority people probably know you and a familiar 22 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,100 with you in your role as the CFO of Phoenix. 23 00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:22,800 But as I found out of a her lunch before Christmas that your 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,600 your actual interest in in poker Pradesh or you're interesting in 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,900 private equity in many ways, whilst a lot of people might not 26 00:01:30,900 --> 00:01:34,700 naturally, see where the Two Worlds meet. 27 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:37,500 It'd be really interesting too. The stand from your perspective, 28 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:42,300 how your experience and in poker has shaped your attitude to take 29 00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:44,800 on the role of CFO in private Equity. 30 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:47,000 Gravel. Great opening question. 31 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,500 I'm happy to talk about my poker career, to the extent that could 32 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:54,100 be called a career in the knowledge that my wife won't be 33 00:01:54,100 --> 00:01:57,200 listening to this particular podcast. 34 00:01:57,700 --> 00:02:01,400 Not poker is about two things. It's about playing the cards and 35 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,000 reading the people and a role as a CFO. 36 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,400 And I also hold it. Title, Chief risk officer around 37 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:13,400 an investment committee table is very much less about playing the 38 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,200 cards, but definitely about reading the people, you know, as 39 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:22,900 a CFO and and definitely as a cro, you walk a difficult 40 00:02:22,900 --> 00:02:26,500 tightrope within a private Equity business, you are 41 00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:30,800 naturally your sort of job title, almost sort of tells you 42 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,100 got to think about the glass being half empty. 43 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,900 Whereas your full you're in a room full of people who 44 00:02:36,100 --> 00:02:39,100 Definition of in a world where you're looking to take the 45 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:42,800 opportunity that is represented, potentially buy a glass half 46 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,000 full term. And so, yeah, there is, you 47 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,500 know, I think I would never on the basis that my colleagues 48 00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:52,500 might listen to this say that I could read the room and see 49 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:56,400 their tells but it's very very important to when you're making 50 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,000 some sort of intervention or comment or bringing the room 51 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,700 back to understanding some of the risk issues that you can 52 00:03:05,300 --> 00:03:09,500 pick the time to Speak and sort of recognize the, the Dynamics 53 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:12,700 going on within the room. Hmm, and I suppose that's almost 54 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:15,100 kind of the negatives. Always shape. 55 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:18,200 Your your attitude in many ways, in regards to kind of how you 56 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,600 learn from your mistakes. And so on in your perspective, 57 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,300 then looking back, career-wise, corporate prior to private 58 00:03:26,300 --> 00:03:30,800 Equity poker-playing, Etc. Could you pick a most important 59 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,300 or most significant lesson that you've learned? 60 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:35,600 Yeah, and it's important to stretch. 61 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,900 I mean, I Personally, an optimist, but professionally. 62 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:40,800 I have a kind of have to my job is whooping. 63 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:46,000 Yeah, kind of says pessimist. And so yeah, you have to balance 64 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:51,200 that but I've got to be very clear things that I think about 65 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,200 in terms of things, things that events that have happened over 66 00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:00,900 the years have taught me one is the famous phrase that Reagan 67 00:04:00,900 --> 00:04:04,600 use in his negotiations before Gorbachev, which is trust. 68 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:08,900 But verify, I won't attempt the do VA. 69 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:11,800 No crappie is the Russian for it. 70 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,300 And I think the whole concept of due diligence, and everything 71 00:04:16,300 --> 00:04:19,100 goes with it. Is that process of taking 72 00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:22,100 something on face value, but then very much making sure that 73 00:04:22,100 --> 00:04:24,600 the little stacked up. And I so I think that's a 74 00:04:24,608 --> 00:04:28,100 fundamental plank of what goes on in my to imagine every 75 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,800 Venture and private Equity Firm in the world, but I think the 76 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,900 other thing that I've taught through some some really painful 77 00:04:36,100 --> 00:04:39,300 Since is, you've got to think the unthinkable, you got to be 78 00:04:39,300 --> 00:04:43,900 willing and possibly, you will be the only one in the room that 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,600 from a sort of professional critical path analysis. 80 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,500 So make sure you take the think the unthinkable box. 81 00:04:50,900 --> 00:04:55,300 And I've had a bunch of bunch of experiences through my corporate 82 00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:58,500 life, but I guess it's sort of one that was a sort of a 83 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:00,000 combination of corporate and personal. 84 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,800 I lost a colleague in the 7/7 bombings, and I always take the 85 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,800 opportunity to talk about Helen Jonesy. 86 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,000 Is an absolutely outstanding human being had the office next 87 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,400 to me. She's a brilliant kid and she 88 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,900 died on one of the tube attacks and when the person in the 89 00:05:15,900 --> 00:05:19,300 office next to you gets killed in a terrorist attack, you 90 00:05:19,300 --> 00:05:22,700 realize that anything can happen and during the course of that 91 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:24,800 day, when she didn't show up for work. 92 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,600 And then there was a lot of chasing around seeing where she 93 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,800 was, you know, towards the end of that day. 94 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,700 We started to think the unthinkable. 95 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:35,600 Now, that's a very extreme example, but I think in any 96 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,400 scenario, Whether you're doing a deal, whether you're assessing, 97 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,400 whether a deal is going well, and you should put more money 98 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,300 into it. It's very, very important to 99 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:46,700 sort of establish that Baseline. Thought it doesn't mean to say, 100 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:49,100 you have to go there and you've got to be very careful, not to 101 00:05:49,108 --> 00:05:51,200 be the one that goes there first every time. 102 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:53,400 But it's really, really important. 103 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,500 So, I think think the unthinkable and trust but 104 00:05:56,500 --> 00:06:00,600 verify, and I suppose that's a, that's a balance through 105 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,800 experience as well. I think in any Walk of Life, 106 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,700 like negative outcomes can Shapers in the in a way that can 107 00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:08,600 almost Guide our thoughts and and stop us from me. 108 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,200 I've see, potentially the more positive side of it. 109 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:13,200 Do you think that is an area of skill? 110 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,300 You've got better at overtime. At you able to kind of put a 111 00:06:16,300 --> 00:06:19,300 park, the emotional scars. When going into a deal or into a 112 00:06:19,300 --> 00:06:21,700 scenario. Look, I think you absolutely 113 00:06:21,700 --> 00:06:23,500 have to, you know, I'm a big fan. 114 00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:26,400 Basically, if I don't use sporting analogies or film 115 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,900 analogies, you just have long periods of silence for me. 116 00:06:28,900 --> 00:06:33,900 So I'm definitely going to use a Geoffrey Rush in the film 117 00:06:33,900 --> 00:06:34,500 Shakespeare. In Love. 118 00:06:34,500 --> 00:06:37,600 You played a theater on. Foreigner and he famously, great 119 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,200 quote said that the natural condition is one of 120 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,900 insurmountable objects on the way to imminent disaster. 121 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:46,000 And I think that's a really good way of characterizing 122 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,500 Entrepreneurship. You know, it's something that 123 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:54,100 people do it in spite of the obvious reasons why they 124 00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:58,600 shouldn't because the reason it, it has significant financial 125 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,200 benefits for those that get it, right? 126 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,500 It's because everyone else looked at it and sort of said, 127 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:04,600 well, they're crazy. There's no way they can do that, 128 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,600 but, ultimately, Urban areas that have this sort of inner 129 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,200 belief that I'm going to do it. Yeah, and I'm going to be 130 00:07:11,207 --> 00:07:12,900 successful and I said there's a fantastic. 131 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:16,000 But Alex mentioned in a previous life. 132 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,600 I was at the economist. There's a brilliant, there was a 133 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:23,700 brilliant survey they did where they asked 100 Fortune, 500 134 00:07:23,700 --> 00:07:27,000 senior managers and 100 members of the Inc, 500, which is a sort 135 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,300 of badge of honor in America Inc. 136 00:07:29,300 --> 00:07:32,800 Magazine list, the 500, fastest growing companies in America, 137 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,500 and I'm to say at one stage, we actually managed to make 20. 138 00:07:36,900 --> 00:07:40,600 But they ask them 100 questions and then they ask them to go 139 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,700 back and rank how sure they were. 140 00:07:42,900 --> 00:07:47,000 They got the answers right? And the Fortune 500 sort of 141 00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:51,000 management in big corporate. They got 76 percent of the 142 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,100 questions, right? But they were 46 percent sure 143 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,500 that they got them, right. The entrepreneurs on the other 144 00:07:56,500 --> 00:07:58,800 hand got 46 percent of the questions, right? 145 00:07:58,900 --> 00:08:01,700 But with 96 percent sure that they got them, right. 146 00:08:01,700 --> 00:08:06,000 So yeah, the accompany entrepreneurs new less, but But 147 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,100 believes more and I think that's fundamental and the job we do 148 00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:13,900 our job, you know, is to back, entrepreneurs definition of 149 00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:18,000 entrepreneur is taking a risk risk taker and it is our job to 150 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,100 deploy Capital. We can't sit there for 5 years, 151 00:08:21,100 --> 00:08:23,200 with our funding and sort of suck our teeth every time. 152 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,700 You see an opportunity and decide on the balance of 153 00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:27,100 probability. We're not going to do it. 154 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,800 Our job is to deploy capital. And so what I absolutely would 155 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:35,200 not last 10 minutes if I were to sit there and try and say no to 156 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,100 everything. My colleagues would have 157 00:08:37,100 --> 00:08:40,600 followed me long long time ago. So you have to, you have to 158 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,800 begin, its reading the room. You have to be willing to assess 159 00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:50,200 the in the manageable risks, the known names and etc. 160 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,700 Etc. And you do have to be part of 161 00:08:52,700 --> 00:08:55,500 the team. Yeah, ultimately apartment on 162 00:08:55,508 --> 00:08:56,900 else. You know, I invest my own. 163 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,200 I own money alongside my colleagues in all of our deals 164 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,200 and, you know, you have to be comfortable. 165 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,200 We have, I like to think of Phoenix, incredibly open. 166 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:08,700 And Collegiate approach, you know, there is we also have a, 167 00:09:09,100 --> 00:09:10,900 you also have an investment committee process that is 168 00:09:10,900 --> 00:09:14,400 designed to flush out concerns as early as we possibly can. 169 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,900 But there is no deal we've ever done where it was done over the 170 00:09:17,900 --> 00:09:20,800 head of any any partner. We know we really do but it's 171 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,400 important, you know, our job is to do deals. 172 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,800 Our job is to take risks, so you can't be afraid of risk, but, 173 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,300 you know, you are backing on tuners and and, to some degree, 174 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:32,900 your team within a private. The other certainly, the deal 175 00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:35,700 facing team. They will be of that. 176 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:38,200 It As well, they're looking for opportunities, looking for 177 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,000 people to back. So, yeah, it's a balance and I 178 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,200 think, you know, fortunately, I have significant ballast 179 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,700 physically, so I can sometimes sit on the on this, you know, on 180 00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:53,000 one side of the scales, but it's not my job to stay there 181 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,600 permanently. I have, you know, you gotta be 182 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,500 flexible. I think that's in this 183 00:09:56,500 --> 00:09:58,700 important. Well, the reality is not every 184 00:09:58,700 --> 00:10:02,100 entrepreneur successful, but the mindset and the attitude can can 185 00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:03,400 be there. And I think anyone is willing to 186 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,800 try, then always need to have that as a basic core. 187 00:10:05,900 --> 00:10:08,500 Ball. Thinking about that and the 188 00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:10,900 ability in the conviction in your, in your opinion, or your 189 00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:14,600 view, must be similar to that of the deal team and they must be 190 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,100 circumstances where in the similar way, you need to bring 191 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:19,700 someone back from their own level of conviction, because not 192 00:10:19,700 --> 00:10:22,200 every business is successful. And therefore, not every deal 193 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,200 that is presented, is accurate. How do you balance that? 194 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,700 How do you between being and that as you say between a 195 00:10:28,708 --> 00:10:31,600 naysayer, but being able to have like strong governance, strong 196 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,900 strong risk risk Hat on at the same time? 197 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,800 Yeah. I mean kind of James car. 198 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:44,100 Works of sculpting Clinton's campaign in 1992 coin, the 199 00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:47,700 famous phrase, It's the economy, stupid, and, and in private 200 00:10:47,700 --> 00:10:50,000 Equity. It's risk stupid effectively. 201 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,900 Our job is to assess and price risk, you know, we have a feel 202 00:10:53,900 --> 00:10:57,100 for what the risk of any particular deal is and, and we 203 00:10:57,100 --> 00:11:01,600 measure that versus the economic upside, you know, moderate risk, 204 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:06,800 2x high-risk 10x is scenario, and you try and calibrate and 205 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:09,100 Stand that. I think, you know, one of the 206 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:13,700 one of the lessons I learned was our former chairman David 207 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:18,000 Gregson who's a fantastic Chaffin and has the brilliant 208 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,800 capability of sort of delivering quite a harsh statement, but 209 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,000 you're not realizing that it's a harsh statement as it's been 210 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,200 delivered and one of things he was he would always say is you 211 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,300 will of course of thought about and I have shamelessly nicked 212 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:34,300 that one. And so if you do find yourself 213 00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:39,100 in a situation where There is a sort of elephant in the room and 214 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:40,900 it's obviously, but it's not being addressed. 215 00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:44,600 I think it was a relatively good tool is to be you will of course 216 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,000 thought about this and you can go back to poker but you can 217 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,700 tell immediately by their face. Whether indeed they have thought 218 00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:54,200 about that or not. And if they if they haven't been 219 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,400 that's a way of introducing that into into the into the 220 00:11:57,408 --> 00:12:00,400 conversation. I say, you know, it's still 221 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,500 teams job to to assess the upside and downside. 222 00:12:03,500 --> 00:12:05,800 It's just to some degree. Are you know, and I think you 223 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,200 always as a finance director CFO cro doesn't matter. 224 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,900 In private actor on you often, end up being slightly the 225 00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:14,900 corporate conscience that sort of slightly nagging on the 226 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:15,500 shoulder. So. 227 00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:18,900 Well, they could just make sure we thought about this and that 228 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:21,800 can be all sorts of risk management, you know, whether it 229 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,000 can be, yeah, the coherence of the team, the health of the 230 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,400 team, the other markets, political risk, you know, their 231 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,400 risk has become. So, I personally believe risk 232 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,800 risk risk is the New Black. It really is a fundamental to 233 00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:39,800 And we do and I say we there's lots and lots and lots of things 234 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,500 that we could talk about. Yes, G is a massive thing at the 235 00:12:42,508 --> 00:12:44,100 moment. But again that is a that is 236 00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:47,300 another way of managing it. It's a way of doing the right 237 00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:48,500 thing. That is also a way of managing 238 00:12:48,500 --> 00:12:52,100 risk. Yeah, and and looking into then 239 00:12:52,100 --> 00:12:57,400 it's ESG is obviously very much the the Hot Topic at the moment 240 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,500 is driving a lot of decision-making obviously 241 00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:03,800 without going into like huge detail because that could lead 242 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,700 to a conversation its own right but how Until now is that to 243 00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:10,700 your kind of own adding that to another spoke in the wheel of 244 00:13:10,700 --> 00:13:14,300 risk for you as the chief risk officer, how significant is that 245 00:13:14,300 --> 00:13:16,900 now as a key principle within the deal process for you. 246 00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:20,200 Yeah. It's a great and really timely 247 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,100 question. I think. 248 00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:25,800 I've broadly speaking quarterback been Loosely 249 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,600 responsible for ESG since about 2005. 250 00:13:29,300 --> 00:13:33,300 And, you know, I probably from 2005 to 2015. 251 00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:39,000 I was able to craft, you know, relatively robust narrative, you 252 00:13:39,008 --> 00:13:41,500 know, we we are responsible investors. 253 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,400 We always have been and we always will but you know, we're 254 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:50,300 signatures of un PRI and but we weren't sort of, we didn't wear 255 00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:52,600 it on our sleeve, nor did it when I was at a fundamental and 256 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:55,300 nor was there from footed thing and kind of, we did it anyway, 257 00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:59,600 because that was in our DNA and I think you know with ESG 258 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,300 environmental and social governance. 259 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,700 The governance bit, is what private Equity do is what we've 260 00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:04,900 done. Years and years and years. 261 00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:08,000 I mean, we particularly in the Venture and the sort of the 262 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,500 mid-market world. We're taking businesses that 263 00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:13,200 have, you know, the entrepreneurs have been fighting 264 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,300 their growth battle for many sometimes many years. 265 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,500 Sometimes, it can happen quite quickly, but their focus is on. 266 00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:25,600 Growth is proof of concept. Turning into Revenue, building a 267 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,300 business, and then turning profit. 268 00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:30,400 Yes, to cash flow. All those sort of key Milestones 269 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,700 that any growing entrepreneurial businesses required. 270 00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:35,300 They then reach a face. I'd say we're institutional 271 00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:40,300 capital is involved and with institutional Capital comes, 272 00:14:40,300 --> 00:14:44,800 institutional expectations and requirements and we happen to be 273 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,000 relatively good at that and we know what to do. 274 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,800 We know governance is is kind of what we did for, how we add 275 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,900 value, we can take businesses sort of tidy up the governance 276 00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:57,500 profile and then that makes them more attractive to the next size 277 00:14:57,500 --> 00:15:00,000 that next phase or indeed, a corporate buyer. 278 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:03,700 So, you know, we've always done G. 279 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,500 And we're pretty good at G, the environmental and social. 280 00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:10,900 I think to a large extent, most of the businesses. 281 00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:13,400 We invest in a have always done. If it's fundamental to their 282 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,400 business. They've always done it and we've 283 00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:19,300 never met a management team. We've identified a key issue for 284 00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:22,000 them and the CEOs who are really old. 285 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,800 Never thought of that. You know, usually they'll kind 286 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,200 of look and I say, yeah, we're on that. 287 00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:30,200 Yeah, however, because it's been Now using institutional Capital 288 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,900 institutional Capital has the same pressure. 289 00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:35,900 So if you're investing Eating, you know, and I think this comes 290 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:39,000 back to one of my, you know, my wife allowed me to have a 291 00:15:39,008 --> 00:15:41,600 tattoo. It will be a, you know, it's 292 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,100 other people's money. It's thing. 293 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:47,000 I remember every genuinely remember, every single day of my 294 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,800 working life. We invest other people's money. 295 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,800 And with other people's money comes other, people's 296 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,500 expectations, and and a lot of those now relate to fairness, 297 00:15:56,500 --> 00:16:02,400 equality balance, the environment, which is is it is 298 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:04,300 it isn't. Stupid. 299 00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:09,400 It's definitely the environment. Yeah, and so those trustees can 300 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,900 bring that to the the the board table of the large, 301 00:16:12,900 --> 00:16:15,000 institutional investors, whose capital we deploy. 302 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,400 They can then turn to to the general Partners ourselves and 303 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,000 then we in turn turn to our portfolio companies. 304 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,400 I think, you know, we there's a sort of, there's a phrase that, 305 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:26,800 you know, something rolls downhill. 306 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:28,300 That's not the way to look at it. 307 00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:32,300 The way to look at it is we're building a Eco system. 308 00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:35,400 Whereby we all have. An incentive to do the right 309 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,000 thing and turn to maximize our profile. 310 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,600 The regards to environmental social governance and 311 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,900 increasingly, you know, The Regulators have you know, very 312 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:48,300 kind Regulators have helped us by providing regulation around 313 00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:51,700 and environmentally sustainable Finance disclosure. 314 00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:55,100 You know, we've got in Europe, there's article 98 where you've 315 00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:58,800 got some enhanced ESG credentials increasingly that 316 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:04,599 may well be an allocation model where the Just don't think will 317 00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:08,700 be one that the proportion of our money in article 9 compliant 318 00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:11,300 after a compliant. So increasingly busy. 319 00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:13,599 It's in businesses interest. There will be a demand. 320 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:16,599 There's a very good. I think the price of Virgin 321 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:19,500 plastic is about the third of recycled plastic now, because 322 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,700 the demand for recycled plastic is gone hugely up as the big 323 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:25,000 corporate. So, you know, by 2030 will have 324 00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:27,800 50%, like, you know, I don't think there's that much recycle 325 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,000 plastic in the world. Yeah, therefore, the demand and 326 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,700 Supply is forced up the prices recycled plastic. 327 00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:36,100 I think the same May well, Happen for really highly 328 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,100 attributed. ESG related businesses, 329 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,500 institutional investors will want them in their portfolio in 330 00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:46,400 order to demonstrate their, you know, they're not just saying 331 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,200 but they're doing. I think that's the interesting 332 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,600 part as well as that ESG in its evolution is as you say, it's 333 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,500 kind of dictating almost. It's being kind of forced down 334 00:17:56,500 --> 00:18:00,000 through regulation, but actually there's as many people who this 335 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,100 is a primary concern of theirs and that might be seen as a kind 336 00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:04,800 of a junk Young. Generation where it's just 337 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,400 innate in their, in their thinking. 338 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,500 How do you think that's well thinking about from now 339 00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:13,900 concurrent portfolio companies about how they make one that 340 00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:16,300 from the capital that's deployed into them and kind of assessing 341 00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:20,200 you as a source of funding, how you're doing to ESG. 342 00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:23,700 Do you think they're kind of awareness of Apollo portfolio 343 00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:25,200 companies? Awareness of what they want from 344 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,000 a partner from investment private Equity. 345 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,300 Company has changed from when you first start to prep Phoenix 346 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,700 today and Yeah. No, there's absolutely no doubt. 347 00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:40,600 I mean, I think late 90's, early, 2000's, the simple 348 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:41,900 reality. There were quite a lot of Club 349 00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:45,800 deals where either two or three private Equity firms are get 350 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,600 together, put some money in the pot and then, you know, would go 351 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,900 and open the briefcase and there it all was and the mounting to 352 00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:54,300 say, aww. Thank you very much. 353 00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:59,300 Not that those days are gone, you know, we're in a competitive 354 00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:01,400 industry. We've got fantastically 355 00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:05,700 innovative. Peers in our industry and we are 356 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,100 we are competing. We know we call it winning 357 00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:10,100 hearts and Minds. You go into a management team 358 00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:12,800 and there is absolutely no guarantee that they're going to 359 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,600 take your money because your money needs to come with other 360 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,700 attributes and you're right whether we know whether it's be 361 00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:24,800 a clear commitment to to to ESG and all that goes with that but 362 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,300 it also has to come with the ability to work as a team, the 363 00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:29,700 ability to provide them something that other people 364 00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:32,100 don't the fundamental ability to you. 365 00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:35,500 If you dare go to a management meeting and I think you're going 366 00:19:35,508 --> 00:19:37,700 to learn learn the business during the meeting. 367 00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:41,600 Don't bother, you've lost, you need to be absolutely all over 368 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,500 their business model. Understand their drivers 369 00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:47,100 understand what their objectives are understand the 10 Targets in 370 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:49,000 their industry, they should acquire. 371 00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:54,700 And so, you know, we know we are absolutely selling ourselves to 372 00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:57,800 a you know, it's the, it's a buyers Market. 373 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,300 Yeah, because and then there's a lot of capital out there, which 374 00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:01,900 means there's a lot of people that love, there's a lot of 375 00:20:01,908 --> 00:20:06,900 frogs, they Yes, and we're the frogs nowadays is is you're 376 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,700 saying that smoked sausage from your career prior to Phoenix, 377 00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:12,100 you work. Within, as you mentioned within 378 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:16,200 corporate corporate space. How much does your kind of Prior 379 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,400 corporate experience and it was quite a bit of time as well. 380 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:19,400 It wasn't kind of one or two years. 381 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,400 It was a lengthy period you have engaged in making those kind of 382 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,700 corporate decision making in an exec. 383 00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:28,600 Oh, how much does that help you to influence or empathize with 384 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,900 the challenges of portfolio companies board or management 385 00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:34,700 team? Yeah, that that's a very good 386 00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:36,700 point. And, you know, this is something 387 00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:40,900 I'm going to, I'm going to say that the risk of the, the my 388 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:45,000 portfolio Civics commenting on the other way, but I like, to 389 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:50,500 think in my experience has been, I've got a very open Open Door, 390 00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:55,600 / phone line, and I do have a lot of interaction with our 391 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,500 CFOs. They were the one thing, you 392 00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:01,500 know, I joined Phoenix because I was the CFO of a business In 393 00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:05,600 America, which It was an investor and got to know the 394 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,300 part of the founding Partners as a result of that. 395 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:12,500 And when they did that they did the deal, they asked me to join. 396 00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:18,800 And so I, you know, I have, I have lived being a being a CFO 397 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,200 live being a private Equity CFO. I've lived premarket CFO. 398 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:28,300 So, you know, I got a reasonable amount of coverage that I I'm 399 00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:31,000 and I'm also, you know, I'm always or happy to give my 400 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,200 opinion on something. So, you know, but the one thing 401 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,900 I absolutely remember is certainly first time, your 402 00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:41,700 involve the private sector. You don't like to. 403 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,100 You're not terribly keen on phoning. 404 00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:47,300 Up your large investor and tell them you don't understand 405 00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:49,200 something. Yeah, you kind of feel that. 406 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,700 I'm a sea of those. Like it's my job to know all 407 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:55,900 this stuff and that was, you know, when I look back in my 408 00:21:55,900 --> 00:22:00,500 salad years, blushing now, how much I didn't know. 409 00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:04,200 So what I've always tried to do is to Make myself available to 410 00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:07,100 to see if those. And in fact, we've enhanced that 411 00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:09,200 over the years. We have a CFO conference over a 412 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,900 year where we get everyone in a room during the pandemic. 413 00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:16,400 We had a weekly CFO calls on the basis, that it was very clear 414 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,700 that we all were facing. Something. 415 00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:22,500 We hadn't dealt with before, getting everyone on the call. 416 00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:25,900 Every week, we could talk about, you know, what you going to do 417 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:28,200 about this, what, you know, about that and unburdening and 418 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,800 making sure you are part of a group was incredibly valuable to 419 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,100 the except now we We've now reduced them to monthly but we 420 00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:38,000 sort of had a refresh the other day and I'll see, you know, is 421 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,500 this useful? Who is it? 422 00:22:39,508 --> 00:22:41,700 Worthwhile should carry on doing and got 100%. 423 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,800 Yes, please. And so that I know we are try 424 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,100 and be as Collegiate as I possibly can across the 425 00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:49,000 portfolio that we're all. You know, we're all part of the 426 00:22:49,008 --> 00:22:51,900 same team. Our objectives are are the same. 427 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:54,100 I think that's very that's fundamental to. 428 00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:58,700 It's not we're not doing it to then into assembly ever did. 429 00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:02,100 But we're certainly not now it, we are part of a wider team that 430 00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:03,500 we're going. Objective of the same. 431 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,500 Yeah, we're trying to build successful businesses and help 432 00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:09,900 them work what you're saying then as well about the 433 00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:14,700 conviction in your own thoughts and stuff in terms of how you 434 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:17,800 grow up in an industry and you look back and you kind of as you 435 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,900 say you cringe a kind of how little you actually knew those 436 00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:23,100 points in time, but there are also moments where you just have 437 00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:25,300 that like shell-shocked. Okay. 438 00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:29,200 We're now this is this is completely unforeseen from a 439 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,000 dimensional form personal level, like the shell shop with you're 440 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:34,000 losing. A colleague but professionally 441 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,800 like those big almost aren't IMA. 442 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,400 Get a moment's. They're kind of the wake up 443 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,000 moments. There anything that really 444 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,600 sticks out from your perspective. 445 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,400 Yeah. It is a couple of things that 446 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,700 sort of really, massive learning. 447 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,700 You know, I threw my career. I've been involved in two 448 00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:52,600 lawsuits, you know, we came out of them relatively unscathed, 449 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,100 but it's definitely one thing I would, we were remarkable 450 00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:59,000 learning opportunities, you know, I did an MBA and learned a 451 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:04,700 bunch of stuff, or I got super 100 million dollars and You have 452 00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:06,800 a lot more than that, though. I ever did a big school. 453 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:12,100 Yeah, but, you know, we we and I we have won at Phoenix where, 454 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,200 you know, and, you know, we came out of the month skate, but the 455 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,000 process of a lawsuit is inevitably, there are two sides 456 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,600 and the other side there, we tend to refer to them as the bad 457 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,600 guys, but they're just the other side that have a different point 458 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,100 of view. And as part of it, they go 459 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:32,300 through a process of questioning your every decision. 460 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,900 And often quite publicly and and you know, if you, if you have 461 00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:38,700 been through a discovery process, you know how rigorous 462 00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:42,700 that questioning can be and it's it's quite sobering to, you 463 00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:45,700 know, every decision. I can definitely say every 464 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:49,900 citizen I've ever made in corporate life is is one where 465 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,900 you know, remembering I get up every morning in our world and 466 00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:55,600 it's other people's money and that characterizes the way I 467 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,300 think it just because you can doesn't mean to say, you should 468 00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:01,200 keep asking yourself those questions. 469 00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:06,100 It's not very nice having quite high-powered, lawyers asking you 470 00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:09,300 questions and characterizing your decisions in a way that 471 00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:12,100 fundamentally wasn't true. But also got actually can 472 00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:15,700 fundamentally cause you to question their decisions and go 473 00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:18,000 through them. And and I think what I learned, 474 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,000 as a result of that was this ability. 475 00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:26,400 Not all the time, but certainly at times where you think a 476 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:32,300 decision is and an important nature and might be one, you 477 00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:36,000 know that has two sides to try and step out always have an out 478 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,500 of body experience and step and look back at yourself. 479 00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:42,700 And you know, I remember having a conversation with somebody who 480 00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:45,900 I knew that had gone through a very difficult corporate 481 00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:49,400 situation and been held to account for a decision. 482 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,500 And I ask them the question, what? 483 00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:55,300 Others. He gave me his version of events 484 00:25:55,300 --> 00:25:57,900 and Arsenic and how would others describe? 485 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,100 And he sat there for a while and he said, classic? 486 00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:03,200 Because I've never thought of that and it really brought home 487 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,300 to me that that ability to step out of the, why am I making the 488 00:26:07,300 --> 00:26:08,600 decision? I know it's right because of 489 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,100 this decision is and you've been living it every day and every 490 00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:13,000 hour often, 24 hours or many days. 491 00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:17,400 Stop step out. So really, really could this be 492 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,500 looked at a different way. And I think by doing that, you 493 00:26:20,500 --> 00:26:23,000 know, you to some degree, your Occasionally. 494 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,600 See, ya could actually. And I perhaps I ought to think 495 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,200 about that before we go ahead and do that. 496 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,000 So, yeah, I mean, I rule number one, don't get sued but but, you 497 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,800 know, it is, it is a learning experience. 498 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,900 And it definitely, I think it's one of those things. 499 00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:40,800 You can't, you can't tell a child. 500 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,700 What hot is, children find out what hot is by touching 501 00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:45,200 something hot. And to some degree. 502 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,600 It's made me. I think, you know, orders of 503 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,500 magnitude better understanding risk because sometimes the worst 504 00:26:52,700 --> 00:26:58,000 Do happen. And, you know, so just that 505 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,600 break and the ability to step out and look back on yourself 506 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,700 and say, okay. Am I sure? 507 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,900 Yeah, does it probably the being sued twice in that same 508 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:09,800 Spectrum? Did you say, positive outcomes 509 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,200 on both but looking back at them and there any anything 510 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,100 similarities, any anything that you can draw upon that, made you 511 00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:20,100 go actually in the later stage seeing similar warning signs as 512 00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:24,600 led you down a to avoid? Such instant instances. 513 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,500 That's a great question. Yeah, I think I think it's that 514 00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:39,700 moment of Asking the question. Typically, we are, our behavior 515 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:41,400 is governed by what's best for us. 516 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,700 What's best for us. Our firm, etc. 517 00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:47,000 Etc. When you have multiple 518 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,400 stakeholders, you do have to go through those stakeholders and 519 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:57,700 say It might be best for us. But is it best for them or if 520 00:27:57,700 --> 00:28:01,500 it's not best for them as long as it's not fundamentally debt? 521 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:04,100 Ramon detrimental to their interests? 522 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,400 And I think if you do something that potentially is detrimental 523 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,100 to someone and they're like that to somebody that's part of 524 00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:15,300 competitive life, you know, and you know, The lawsuit in 525 00:28:15,308 --> 00:28:17,400 America, you know, we were involved with a company that 526 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,600 subsequently became the largest bankruptcy in human history. 527 00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:23,600 We're trying to compete with someone who wasn't competing 528 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,900 fairly. We were never going to win so 529 00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:29,700 and but that came out in years. He is following that. 530 00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:34,200 But yeah, so I think that's that's the, the lesson learned 531 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,800 on that one. It is, you know, as long as what 532 00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:42,100 try and make sure because because that's what's best for 533 00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:46,100 you and your company, and your shareholders and Investors isn't 534 00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:50,600 fundamentally depth, Ramona of detrimental, and if it is be, 535 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,100 absolutely sure that you're doing it for the right reasons. 536 00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:56,500 There's, you know, you got to characterize and understand 537 00:28:56,500 --> 00:29:00,600 because that's lawsuits happen because two sides disagree about 538 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,700 fundamental, intentions of an action. 539 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,300 And so you've got to make sure that you consider the other 540 00:29:06,500 --> 00:29:07,700 shareholders. Think that, you know, I think 541 00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:10,600 one of them actually we absolutely did took advice, etc, 542 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,300 etc, but nevertheless, and because at the end of the day, 543 00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:14,100 you've got the money in the intention, you can do any over. 544 00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:16,800 And yeah, I suppose it goes back to that. 545 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,600 Same point is that in an environment where all the people 546 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,700 you've got a portfolio company that is up respectable photo 547 00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:25,100 company that has great conviction in their, their 548 00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:27,800 business and their Outlook and you've got a potentially a deal 549 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,800 to him. Also saying, this is brilliant, 550 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,400 dear whether everything works. Well, is that a and I think 551 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,400 we've touched on it briefly before but just to kind of go 552 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,900 into it's not a role which you've grown grown into the 553 00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:43,100 ability to walk. The line between being too - 554 00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:44,900 littering over 200. Be optimistic. 555 00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:47,700 As you say, your natural demeanor is a positive person. 556 00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:49,700 So it's begun to find that healthy balance. 557 00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:52,500 I think it is interesting. Yeah, I look on the bottom line 558 00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,200 is. I think it comes the fundamental 559 00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:57,900 attribute. You need is respect from the 560 00:29:57,900 --> 00:30:00,200 deal team. I was very lucky at Phoenix in 561 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,600 that. We think one of our first four 562 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,200 or five deals was actually my deal. 563 00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:08,000 I had a relationship with somebody here and was it was 564 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,000 able to deliver a deal on the plate was a good deal for us. 565 00:30:11,008 --> 00:30:12,400 We made money. So to some degree, my 566 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,400 colleagues. And and also, you know and I'm 567 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,700 seeing this across our industry bit. 568 00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:22,300 Orange has grown to such a ridiculous extent. 569 00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:25,900 Now, we're a remarkably broad Church than from The Venture 570 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:28,800 will be through the lower. Mid-market the mid-market the 571 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,600 apartment. I'll get up to the to the to the 572 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:37,100 big guys and the role of CFO in in those businesses can be 573 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,200 hugely different. You know, I'm we have 28 people 574 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,400 in our team and you know six on the it. 575 00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:47,500 Some pretty plus plus me with my responsibilities for offshore 576 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,800 boards. And therefore, you know, I'm 577 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,900 around in everything we ever do you know as our are other parts, 578 00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:57,300 you know, we're involved in everything. 579 00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:01,400 If you are in a much much bigger firm and you've got lots, lots 580 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,400 of slightly more defined and constrain responsibilities. 581 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,700 Then you will answer this question. 582 00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:10,300 Very, very differently. But the one thing for me is to 583 00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:12,700 be able to participate in investment committee discussions 584 00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:17,900 and makes Norman CFO, type comments, commercial views, and 585 00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:20,600 I've got some really good experience across different 586 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,500 Industries, but it's all done to gain gain the respect of your 587 00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:25,800 colleagues. If you get the respect of your 588 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,800 colleagues, if you then do have to make a comment of it, you 589 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,600 know, look, you know, I don't like the look of this is, you 590 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,100 know, they stopped and listened to it. 591 00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:36,000 They don't immediately. Roll their eyes and go. 592 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,600 Yeah, and, and I think fan outfit, I think for me doing a 593 00:31:41,608 --> 00:31:44,100 deal early, putting getting runs on the board. 594 00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:47,200 To speak made my colleagues. Okay. 595 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,700 Yeah, I know right? This is Scott. 596 00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:51,300 He's not he's not being Captain. Yeah, because that. 597 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:58,300 Yeah, I had a discussion with my current chairman when I joined 598 00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:03,000 the firm, I said if you want to be encounter, it ain't me. 599 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,800 Yeah, it's easier to talk about kind of Lessons Learned not at 600 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,300 any point. We kind of really thought about 601 00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:14,600 or talk about the technical side of being a CFO is it seems to me 602 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,300 much more the human element where you personally see the 603 00:32:18,300 --> 00:32:21,800 significance. Yeah, I do actually, because the 604 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,500 technical stuff is, you know, it's, you got to learn it and to 605 00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:30,800 some degree you, you know, I think the, the thing in our 606 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,300 were, we're quite used to asking for professional advice, you 607 00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:39,700 know, we very small team. We Outsource Financial legal, 608 00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:41,000 potentially commercial due diligence. 609 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,600 We're used to using advisors. So it's perfectly fine 610 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,600 particular. Particularly when you've got a, 611 00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:48,900 you know, we were a sector investor, but even within those 612 00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:51,300 sectors error, Thousands and thousands of companies. 613 00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:54,400 And so if you if you think you know it, you know it all then 614 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,600 that that's the first route to disaster. 615 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,000 You don't think I'm being absolutely guarantee. 616 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,900 Ya. So asking for advice and help is 617 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,500 you know, is a fundamental part of what we do. 618 00:33:05,900 --> 00:33:09,200 And so you over the years you were asked for it, you know, you 619 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,100 get to know good advisors good business partners and work with 620 00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:17,500 them and learn from them. So to some degree you there's a 621 00:33:17,508 --> 00:33:19,500 technical end. We will go this. 622 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,800 Cool, and, you know, I did the usual route full of hoes. 623 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,200 And again, did an MBA, but, you know, that was of that sort of 624 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,900 that's table Stakes if back to a another reference and the, but 625 00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:34,600 the, it's the experience and and applying the technical issues. 626 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:40,400 And again, it's the technical knowledge is knowing about is 627 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,100 knowing where your knowledge ends and where you need to get 628 00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:48,100 specialist advice or, or knowing where your knowledge raises red 629 00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:51,500 flags, because that's the point. You know, if a red flag is 630 00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:54,800 raised in your mind, you need don't walk away from it. 631 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,800 You need to make sure you understand the potential 632 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,200 implications. Sometimes red flags are you 633 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,700 know, it's a warning but doesn't mean to say, you can't do it. 634 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,600 Sometimes a red flags are really, really don't do this and 635 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,199 you need to understand and characterize that I think there 636 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:15,199 is one area, which I think it. You know, it's really in the 637 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,400 last five years is fundamentally changing from a tactical 638 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,600 perspective. Back to film references. 639 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,100 There's an absolutely Apollo 13, brilliant film, Ed Harris, head 640 00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:29,100 of head, of sort of Mission Control there. 641 00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:30,400 It's all going. Terribly wrong. 642 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,300 Everyone's pulling their hair out and he sort of very calm. 643 00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:35,500 He says, let's work. The problem. 644 00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:40,000 People don't make it worse by guessing and that is kind of, 645 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,000 that's my last film quote. And that's where data comes in 646 00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:49,400 in our world in the last five years data and the ability to 647 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,900 you. This data is now has now become 648 00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:54,300 completely and utterly ubiquitous. 649 00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:01,700 And my son did they drown list and he has a brilliant way of 650 00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:06,800 describing the impact that data now has And this is kind of the 651 00:35:06,808 --> 00:35:10,100 way kids, talk to their dad's. Dad. 652 00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:13,100 You've got a lifetime experience. 653 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,000 And the way you deal with the decision tree points is to apply 654 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,900 your experience at each point. You look at a situation you say, 655 00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:23,200 what about? What is my experience of that? 656 00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:25,300 And that's the reason I'm going to choose. 657 00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:29,100 So what we do with data is every time we get there. 658 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,100 We get as much data as we possibly can. 659 00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:37,200 We crunch the data and the data tells us the questions. 660 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,700 We should ask in the direction we should go and that's what 661 00:35:40,700 --> 00:35:43,300 they do now and the the people that can do it. 662 00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:48,400 Well increasingly just have an absolutely fundamental advantage 663 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,300 over people that don't. And I think for us, and I'm 664 00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:55,600 about to do a course in data analytics at Columbia University 665 00:35:56,100 --> 00:35:58,500 partly. So I can stop being beat up on a 666 00:35:58,508 --> 00:36:02,200 son but Partly? Because I want to show that a 58 667 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,800 year old get can Embrace this stuff from fully understand it. 668 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,500 I could turn around to my colleagues and say look, don't 669 00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:13,800 be afraid. And now we've got people within 670 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,900 our businesses. Are absolutely outstanding of 671 00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:20,700 this, but then we, you know, our generation less. 672 00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:23,300 So we have been really come across it to some degree. 673 00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:27,600 It's a bit of a bit of a closed system, but a bit of a box that 674 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,400 we then looking at, but I think fundamentally Mentally, the last 675 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,700 five years has been the sort of Advent of real of data, becoming 676 00:36:34,900 --> 00:36:37,000 data and data management, becoming ubiquitous. 677 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,700 The next five years is when it's really going to be used in Anger 678 00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:43,400 for competitive Advantage. Yeah, and you think that's just 679 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,800 going comfortable with what you're saying that as well as I 680 00:36:45,808 --> 00:36:48,400 suppose. She's recognizing limitations 681 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,100 and recognizing wave. Actually those there's experts 682 00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:53,700 that can support you and help the. 683 00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:56,700 It does part of that being able to say actually no, I'm that's 684 00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:58,900 not where I'm strong at. Does that come from experience 685 00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:02,700 and confidence and Evolving in the role or do you think it's 686 00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:06,000 just something that's the best people do for quite naturally? 687 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,100 Look, I think it's I think it's something. 688 00:37:11,500 --> 00:37:16,100 If you do it, it's funny how you end up kind of being better at 689 00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:17,400 it. Yeah, so it's whether it's the 690 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,500 best people do it. I don't know if it's, you know, 691 00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:23,300 it's cause or effect, you can an egg, but if you don't do it, 692 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:31,300 look I think one of the most important things in any one is 693 00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:34,200 the ability to to be honest about what you don't know 694 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,800 because if you if you don't do that, you're very unlikely to 695 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,300 learn. So Limit the boundaries of your 696 00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:43,600 development. And I, you know, I absolutely 697 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,500 believe it and took notes and I personally have learned that 698 00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:49,900 lesson over the years. I mean, certainly was a time 699 00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:51,700 where you felt, I would like I'm supposed to know this early 700 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,300 dancer do, but I think as you get older and a little bit more 701 00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:57,200 confident. And as you realize that, you 702 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,300 know, what, you know, is actually a tiny fraction of what 703 00:38:01,300 --> 00:38:02,400 you don't know. Oh, yeah. 704 00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:07,600 The ability to be honest and, and seek out experts or even 705 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,500 just other opinions, you know, I think it's It's a you know, my 706 00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:14,000 father had a phrase, Lisa remind me that I had two ears and one 707 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,300 mouth in that proportion for a reason. 708 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,000 And you know, I think it is, you know, you learn by listening. 709 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,300 Not so much. Bye. 710 00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:27,000 Yeah, but what you believe, you know, yeah, and I think we've 711 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,500 got time for one more question. One thing. 712 00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:34,000 I was always struck me from from the park Capital industry is how 713 00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:38,300 strangely collaborative it is for, what is actually extremely 714 00:38:38,300 --> 00:38:42,000 competitive in many circumstances as someone who I 715 00:38:42,008 --> 00:38:45,500 know is very open to to working with people and speaking to 716 00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:48,400 people giving advice and Senior at conferences, where you're 717 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,100 kind of people are cheering around medication. 718 00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:53,700 Do you think as an industry and cfo's or even see Reason do 719 00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:57,200 another to collaborate with one another and understand what 720 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:58,700 could be quite an isolating role. 721 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,600 How there are others connecting to others who are going through 722 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,700 the same challenges. Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at 723 00:39:04,700 --> 00:39:07,300 it actually. And I think there's a bunch of 724 00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:10,700 reasons. I think this is a shout out acts 725 00:39:10,700 --> 00:39:14,700 of attract these 3 CF a PC Farm school might winning, who's 726 00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:18,700 retired some years ago? Super guy who kind of pulled 727 00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:21,800 together. Well, one thing I always thought 728 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,800 it was the pulling people together, What's called the vfd 729 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,700 group. So, fantastic idea for 730 00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:32,700 collaboration, not great at marketing FD group. 731 00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:36,400 Not, The most exciting but we used to get together every 732 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,100 quarter and to some degree of the code has been slightly weird 733 00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:41,400 for that. But somebody we still do is a 734 00:39:41,408 --> 00:39:43,200 closed group. We can you know, Chatham House 735 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,900 Rules talk about stuff that we got various Splinter groups. 736 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,800 We've got one of the, mid-market were seven of us get together, 737 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,700 quarterly and share, not commercial Secrets, but 738 00:39:55,700 --> 00:39:59,000 practical, you know, our jobs are remarkably similar. 739 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:00,600 We just don't four different firms. 740 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,000 And so, and we share and You know, tonight, I'm going to 741 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,500 actually going to a CFO clo drinks at the BBC. 742 00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:11,600 A so they played a great role in bringing in taking a 743 00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:13,700 recognizing. The role is a slightly, 744 00:40:13,700 --> 00:40:17,200 different one, and bringing us together an opportunity and 745 00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:20,900 sparing blushes. The drawdown has done a 746 00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:24,100 fantastic job. It really identifying, that sort 747 00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:26,000 of you can that that, you know, to some degree. 748 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,700 Sometimes. It can't be a bit of a lonely 749 00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:28,400 job. What we do. 750 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,400 There's, you know, there might be sort of 10 deal Partners, but 751 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,500 one of us and This kind of usually only one of us in any 752 00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:41,000 firm, so it's nice to have some, some friends to talk to and I 753 00:40:41,008 --> 00:40:43,700 think they'll download on a fantastic job of that. 754 00:40:43,700 --> 00:40:46,000 Sort of highlighting with we know with the magazine and 755 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,200 things like this highlighting those issues that we that we 756 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,100 share and providing a platform for us to sort of talk about 757 00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:56,800 them and share opportunities and problems and experiences. 758 00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,900 Perfect. Well, thank you very much for 759 00:40:59,900 --> 00:41:02,400 your conversation. Thank you, Sam. 760 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:03,000 It's been a pleasure.