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Hello and welcome to Real Deals 
on a I'm Nicola sniveling and in

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this program we will be taking 
the status check on the position

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of debt markets a year on from 
the first wave of covid. 

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Disruption and uncertainty I 
recently joined a group of 

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lenders and advisers to discuss 
the drivers behind the evidence 

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of a strong debt Market recovery
and to get to grips with how 

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lenders are navigating 
competitive. 

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Ins to find Value and what the 
outlook for debt markets over 

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the next 12 to 18 months has the
guests joining me for the 

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discussion were and money at 
Year from think cats. 

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Tom Cox from FRP advisory Kirsty
Hutchinson from McFarland's, 

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Cecile, Levy from Tikki, how 
capital and G Neil from n for 

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partners? 
we kicked off discussion with a 

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look at what has characterized 
deal flow so far this year and 

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what kinds of deals are getting 
over the line, Kirsty, 

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Hutchinson explained how the 
focus has shifted from survival 

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to business, as usual within 
just a few months with 

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refinancing and amend and extend
deals Ubiquiti has in a borrower

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Friendly Market if we, if we 
sort of, look back to same time 

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last year, clearly, we were in a
wasteland of panic and confusion

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with That with people just about
getting their heads above water 

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with some emergency waivers. 
Roll forward to December. 

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I think everybody acknowledges 
that it was, one of the, one of 

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the busiest key force in 
people's working memories and, 

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and inevitably a lot of that 
deal flow spilled over into 

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January, because people simply 
couldn't get everything away in 

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time. 
So, it was a, it was a cracking.

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Start to the are in the sense 
that, you know, everybody's 

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glass was over, was overflowing 
with, with transaction activity,

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and that needed to be dealt with
in q1, but you A lot of amend 

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and extend activity but equally 
a lot of people taking advantage

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of the frankly enormous levels 
of liquidity to refinance. 

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People are looking ahead. 
They might not necessarily find 

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themselves needing to refinance 
now, but this is a great time 

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for them to do. 
So particularly their 

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fundamentals are sound. 
So people are refinancing a lot 

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of sponsors are taking the 
opportunity to refinance and 

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recap therefore P. 
Advisories Tom Cox also noted 

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the surgeon Financing and recap 
activity. 

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But added that much that the 
market had bifurcated between 

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sectors, team covid, resilience 
and industry's most impacted by 

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lock dance. 
See we all seen lots of activity

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very very robust valuations in 
very guess covid-19 sectors. 

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So Healthcare former business 
services, second able to 

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etcetera etcetera. 
And if you kind of compare that 

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against corruption or heavily, 
Impacted in a consumer facing 

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Industries. 
There's, you know, that's a lot 

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of activity going on there and 
we eventually side. 

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So you know, are having a number
of conversations, welcome, those

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kind of consensus, where 
frankly, there's not a chance in

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hell frankly, that some people 
be going to be able to refinance

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at least roommates 12-18 months.
Wailing you have two businesses 

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which are lost making for a 
great meal from in for partners 

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affirm that lens as well as 
provides did advisory Services 

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added that in what had become 
Hot markets, Linda's, had remain

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disciplined and exercised High 
selectivity when deciding which 

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assets and deals to back 
guarantee. 

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Pretty aggressive. 
Just now. 

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And I think Jane with the market
feels feels hot. 

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It feels like there's a lot of 
kind of filtration going on and 

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and and are abused going to work
Tom and Rusty stayed around. 

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You teams are also being 
selective. 

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I think I've certainly seen from
our perspective teams, not 

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engage in auction processes, 
because they respect and 

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understand that Dynamics there 
and we'll just choose pretty 

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quickly and whether they want to
No, you're not because they 

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fully understand it, unless they
really can go to the top of the 

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pile. 
It will be you know, it's going 

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to be a whole process and will 
just not get not only get the 

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outcome, the one. 
So how have Linda's navigated a 

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hot Market that favors borrowers
against? 

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What is still an uncertain 
economic backdrop. 

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Tikki house to see Levi and a 
money at here from thin cats, 

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sketched out their respective, 
approaches to deployment through

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this period, first sociology, 
and then a money Atia, even if 

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you're a large This fund. 
Even if you have a large team, 

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you can't address everything. 
So then you need to really 

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direct. 
And I guess that maybe term 

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health issue to capture the 
bandwidth of those teams because

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we need to do some trade-offs. 
And even if you are very willing

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and organized and we have this 
because that's really now the 

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Paradox in a way private that 
funds have emerged on the back 

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of being flexible ones. 
Stop whatever, but being fast 

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and and so at some stage, you 
can't cover it all, so you need 

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to be indeed discipline. 
And so that's quite a natural 

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will say selection, this being 
said because you see there is 

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this intense competition. 
So, meaning that, if and when it

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becomes 24 by our own standards 
to leverage to low pricing, we 

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just let it go. 
Doesn't matter. 

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Well, it's really changed over 
the last. 

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Where are we now? 
18 months or so that we've been 

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in this situation we started out
with a lot of are initially back

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back in the spring and summer of
last year, a lot of our activity

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was refinancings, or sorry, was 
working capital and just working

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with companies who needed that 
working capital and who were 

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viable. 
Valenti's but just needed the 

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working capital and then towards
the the fall of the year and 

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kind of into into the winter, 
what we began to see is a lot 

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more of activities, in terms of 
starting to rebuild their 

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businesses. 
So rebuilding inventory new 

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bringing in new equipment, 
things of that nature to get to 

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get ready now, very significant.
Portion of our book. 

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I echo in terms of m a related 
lot of work with with sponsors, 

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so that's really the bulk of 
activity now. 

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So, if you saw the book or book 
last year versus this year, 

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whereas last year, it was maybe,
you know, 40 40 to 60 percent 

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kind of working capital and then
inventory build. 

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Now it's 60 percent or more of 
em a related and Sir, related 

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type of activity. 
So I Echo everything that's 

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being said, even in our part of 
the market which again are the 

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smaller smaller sized businesses
conversation, then move to what 

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lies ahead for debt markets as 
Government stimulus and wines 

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and borrowers. 
Have to start managing 

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additional debts and liabilities
incurred to see them through 

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lockdowns. 
Grow Neil was cautiously 

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optimistic that the market would
be able to steer through this 

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period back. 
You were there Pointing forward.

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I don't think it's going to be a
straight course. 

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I think. 
Again, we've talked about that 

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yesterday. 
I think it depends on Sake 

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Source and actually, you know, 
obviously some of the some of 

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the sectors that we covered in 
probably a lot of day appetite 

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throughout having problems. 
They all the compass move at 

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all. 
So I suppose there probably are 

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operating in quite leveraged 
positions but the markets will 

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remain strong in the macro 
drivers are sit behind the will 

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continue to support that. 
Tom Cox expects pragmatism to 

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Prevail with credits in 
troubled, sectors. 

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Given the breathing room to 
recover by lenders. 

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Hers who are Keen to avoid 
crystallizing losses. 

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You know, in certain sectors 
lenders will be encouraging 

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their borrowers to potentially 
look elsewhere for to take them 

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out. 
But will, you know, except that 

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frankly at the moment? 
That's probably not possible. 

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And we'll have to recut, refi 
and amend extend to the time 

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being until we have a more 
stable platform. 

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Christie, Hutchinson added that 
the depth and Innovation within 

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the lender Universe would also 
help to avoid a debt maturity 

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wall, private credit, grew out 
all of the retrenchment of Banks

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and the absence of you know, 
available capital in situations 

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where businesses needed it. 
And that's it, took advantage of

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that. 
I see no reason why you know the

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the incredibly Nimble effective 
professionals who work in 

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private credit or not going to 
be able to take advantage of 

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that again. 
And so you know, people Setting 

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up a special situations fund. 
People are sitting up setting up

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being more distress fund or even
loan to our own Farms. 

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But but particularly sort of 
special sets funds in order to 

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take advantage of those sorts of
those sorts of situations 

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because they are there and there
are opportunities in those the 

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fact that financial distress has
been limited, despite the scale 

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of disruption was a positive 
reflection on the maturity of 

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the direct lenders who have come
to lead the market over the last

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decade. 
But Have yet to face a down 

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cycle until last year and money 
at year and Cecile. 

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Levy elaborated on how they had 
handled portfolio management and

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supported borrowers in the face 
of volatility. 

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So we're set up a little bit 
different in that we have kind 

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of, he will hunters and 
gatherers. 

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So we have our dedicated to 
looking at new transactions and 

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putting those transactions in 
the books. 

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And then Of the transactions in 
the books. 

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We turn it over to a group that 
manages them on an ongoing basis

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so that they keep on top of of 
the transactions, they keep on 

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top of the borrower's, make sure
that they're hitting their 

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covenants and and they're 
performing in line with 

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projections Etc. 
So we've been able because of 

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that. 
We've really been able to both 

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bring on new business. 
At the same time, give our back 

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book the attention that it needs
and deserves the outcome is that

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we We have been much much closer
to companies and private Equity 

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sponsor because and especially 
during the first strict 

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lockdown, we had everybody was 
quite, you know, surprised and 

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lost and were bewildered. 
And so we had this opportunity 

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to have constant dialogue and 
that was quite nice actually, 

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and even we had put in place, a 
kind of small club and people 

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were helping each other and 
sharing best His son. 

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So that was quite on the 
contrary quite active dialogue 

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and maybe better than when you 
go, I don't know like once every

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quarter meeting or once twice a 
year here at that was sometimes 

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like we were talking to those 
companies on the weekly basis 

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much. 
Now we are much closer to them 

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the session closed with each 
panelist sketching out their 

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strategic objectives and 
expectations for the next. 12 to

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18 months and money at yet and 
Cecile Levy. 

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First followed by Graham Neal 
and Tom Cox with a final word 

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from Christy Hutchinson. 
So, for the rest of this year, 

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what we're really focused on, 
we've got a few government 

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programs that were working on 
still. 

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So we're really focused on 
completing those programs and 

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making sure that borrowers, get 
get to take advantage of those 

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programs. 
And then really, Starting to 

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build for next year because we 
do think, you know, the 

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government will will end up 
withdrawing its support in the 

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marketplace. 
So we, you know, we need to make

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sure that we're positioned to 
take advantage because we are 

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seeing the bank's continued to 
withdraw from the marketplace. 

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And so we really are looking to 
take advantage of that. 

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You know, for next for next 
year, we think the activity. 

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The m&a activity will be around 
for a while or at least, you 

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know, for the for the next, for 
a lot of the rest of this year. 

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So, you know, we will continue 
to see a lot a lot go into that 

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space and it's really about then
positioning ourselves for what 

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next year will bring we have 
known some that's a maybe 

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outcome and the beginning of the
covid. 

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Impact we have generalized, 
what? 

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Of called the ESG ratchety. 
Now you need trench. 

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So that's a big topic. 
So that's one of the key 

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priority to really link them to 
have this extra Financial 

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criteria becoming more and more 
in the, you know, involved in 

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the in the setup. 
And so meaning that the team is 

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organized that way we have hides
dedicated resources and so on. 

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So that's also the second 
priority from a network 

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perspective, we will be your 
fundamentally marks. 

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Amazing. 
The body for a couple of verses 

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in our current portfolio. 
We've been blessed in some 

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regards or some of the assets 
that we have and the performance

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with them up and then It 
ultimately will be looking to 

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maximize value over the next 
four months for those assets and

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expanding our business. 
You know what, I think we are 

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working on currently kind of 
looking at. 

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You know, what? 
That's from unexpected and 

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expansion, both in the 
traditional investment space. 

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And also our kind of advisory 
practice or where, or 

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fortunately, I suppose, we'll 
all the change, that's brought 

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us many opportunities, and we 
just got a really, really busy 

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team. 
Just nice. 

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So, looking forward to the next 
12 months, same good forward 

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here already quite some of our 
advisory work is getting started

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speeding towards World Peace, 
kind of more special situations 

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content and refinancing, some 
cat structures that I teach so 

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many effective web staying 
forward and to engaging with it,

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engaging with those borrowers, 
relatively early such that you 

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don't get to that point where 
the thing, the thing from whines

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itself when it has, when I had 
an opportunity to be he to be 

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restructured. 
So I think we will increasingly 

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see volume in that space. 
As is 2022 opens up. 

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But for the time being there is 
very much that he should go 

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increased opportunities, 
because, you know, having a 

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company through her company 
clients, through some pretty 

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tough and challenging times you 
are in a position where they 

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need. 
They will be, they will, you 

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know, put you in pole position 
and you will help them. 

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You know, in slightly less 
challenging times where they've 

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been in there, doing something 
exciting and transactional, so 

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We've just say very, very close 
to our clients and help them 

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through a lot of, a lot of stuff
and it brings increased 

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opportunities of people go 
through because, you know, 

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people are looking to transact 
again and take advantage of 

250
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what's what's happened. 
So more of the same in that 

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sense, it's been a it's been a 
very strange paradoxically, you 

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know, incredibly tough but also 
in many ways certainly 

253
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professionally incredibly more 
rewarding. 

254
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Yeah, that we've just been 
through. 

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So Hopefully, hopefully 
something good will come out of 

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all this. 
For all of us.