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Hello and welcome to a new 
episode of Private Equity talk. 

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I'm Real Deals. 
Reporter, Jennifer forest. 

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And in this episode of our 
podcast will be discussing 

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everything about the Competitive
Edge. 

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That our focus on improving, 
sustainable practice within a 

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portfolio company can do for 
returned at the point of exit. 

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I'm joined by Beth, Halton 
partner and head of impact, fund

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at Palatine 5X. 
Petit and Eric of Monson partner

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at Verde. 
Hello Tebow Eric. 

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I thought it would be a great 
place for you to start. 

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If you maybe talk us through 
what areas of sustainable 

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practice and most often embedded
into a value creation strategy 

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within your firm yet. 
How are you sure? 

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So I mean being a growth private
Equity Firm, you know in Nordic 

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such Germany and UK, you know, 
we we like to think of of the 

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north here as Nordic laboratory 
of the intersection of new 

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technology and sustainability 
and sort of thinking that you 

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know we have governments and 
consumers and businesses really 

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being at the Forefront of those 
all those megatrends. 

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So we we try to throw think that
you know when you're there and 

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you feel the pain points of new 
technologies bring brought to 

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bear. 
That's, that's great because we 

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find a lot of companies trying 
to solve those problems and 

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specifically we're trying to to 
then invest in through the 

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energy. 
Energy transition team. 

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Resilient communities theme 
sustainable consumption theme 

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where we're finding are a lot of
companies that you know our new 

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and best. 
Did you want to talk with her as

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well to sort of sustainable 
areas that being important by 

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Palatine within value creation? 
Yeah I mean Simon ESG 

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perspective we take quite a 
holistic view of sustainability 

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sustainability and value 
creation at Palatine, are we? 

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Bostick spill, a framework of 
ESG which covers to 

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environmental pillars, three 
social and then the governance 

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pillow as well and we assess 
that across all of our portfolio

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companies pre deal and then post
deal when we've done the 

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investment as well. 
I think we look at materiality 

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as well. 
So really important for us is 

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that when we invest in 
companies, will looking at the 

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material ESG issues, whether 
that be environmental or social,

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and we'll prioritize, Sighs 
those issues initially but we 

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try and help companies across 
all of our six pillars of ESG 

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and better within those sort of 
investment practices and 

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investment theme. 
How do you plan for those during

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the holding period? 
How do you sort of plan for 

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sustainable practice and the 
improvements that you're going 

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to make to the business? 
Yeah, so ESG is embedded into 

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our value creation approach. 
So I should say, Palestines been

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looking at yesterday for 12 
years now. 

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And certainly initially, it was 
more about risk, mitigation and 

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understanding businesses. 
As we've evolved a tsg practices

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over that time, we started to we
embed ESG within value creation.

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So is part of, when we start to 
look at an investment company, 

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we started Talk about it right 
at the very start. 

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So, the first time we meet the 
management teams will start to 

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talk about ESG and value 
creation. 

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Alongside each of them, we will 
then develop our strategy on on 

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value creation and and ESG a lot
alongside the management team as

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we go through the exclusivity 
process and then post deal, we 

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have a baseline review on res. 
Gee that looks at across all of 

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our six pillars will look at At 
the performance of the business 

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today and then also, the 
opportunities that we feel the 

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business has going forwards as 
well. 

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And we'll do that in quite an 
in-depth report, on ESG, without

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without management teams there. 
And then we wanted to identify 

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those opportunities. 
We feel we've got across across 

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our six pillars, well, then 
embed that within the value, 

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creation plan, and the value 
creation process for management 

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teams as well. 
And Eric, did you want to talk 

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us through? 
How Yes, be considered within 

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the 100-day plan when you invest
in a portfolio company and how 

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are achievable goals set out at 
the beginning of the whole 

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interior? 
Yeah. 

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No, absolutely. 
I think let me, let me, let me 

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just start by saying that, you 
know, I was an operator for 10 

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years before becoming a partner 
in the game. 

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So I was the CEO of the second 
largest recycling company in the

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nordics and, you know, we had to
work which is the inability as a

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Core competitive liver within 
that company for, you know, the 

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past 10 years. 
And so it brought this company 

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to the 11 you know, most 
reputable place in Norway, you 

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know, it doubled, the margins of
that business. 

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So I've seen sort of firsthand 
the power of sustainability, how

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that can, you know, unleash all 
this energy in a company and to 

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also know the employees and the 
customers and suppliers and so 

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forth. 
Right, so so so, you know, I 

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don't take this as a sort of 
about top-down approach. 

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I think about it as a book. 
Approach where we old already in

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the investment phase? 
We identify not it's not the 

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tick, the boxes type of thing 
you identify where lies the 

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biggest opportunity for this 
company to really sort of move 

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the needle, agon sustainability.
And then we make sure that we 

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agree with the management, 
answer the other co-owners that 

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this is in reality where we can 
make the best impact. 

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And then we bring that forward 
into the 100 day program as you 

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asked for, you know, because 
then we have already decided, 

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where do we want to sort of? 
Create this impact and how 

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should we, how should we measure
it specifically, how should we 

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scale it? 
What type of budget should we 

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create for it? 
What type of action should be 

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10? 
Take to our partners in the 

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value chain? 
How should we incentivize it and

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so forth? 
So it's all a part of a just 

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like that said, this is it's 
from from, you know, all the way

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from the get-go and until sort 
of the exit process if you will 

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and on that topic management. 
How do you how do management 

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teams? 
Take to sustainable improvements

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being made within their 
business? 

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Was it something? 
They're really Keen for or is it

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something where you have kind of
experience some sort of 

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resistance? 
No, I think those days are over 

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many years ago, at least, this 
year. 

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I mean the yeah, I think I would
fit the that question around 

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saying it will be very, very 
difficult engagement routines, 

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unless you have this stance. 
And so, so I think that, you 

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know, this is It's in, it's gone
to a point where, you know, we 

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gauge intentionality and whether
the intentionality of the impact

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is true. 
It's not, you know, something 

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that's just on pastry or the 
representation. 

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But, you know, it's something 
that has been already discussed 

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with all layers or doing Sation 
with their customers suppliers 

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part of the sales dialogue. 
And so, I think it's in all 

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these dialogues. 
It's taken us. 

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A very, very positive thing that
we are on the same page on this 

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and it's a key part of the value
creation Libra for that for 

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those companies. 
Bethany thing the same sort of 

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thing with Palatine. 
Yeah, I think so. 

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I think so, I think it has 
changed though. 

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So certainly, when we first 
started talk about ESG 12 years 

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ago, there was more resistance 
from management teams. 

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You know, it was a New Concept 
particularly Palatine because 

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we're investing in the lower mid
Market, it was a New Concept for

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many people and, you know, it 
did take a bit of effort to 

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convince management teams to 
Take some of the initiatives on 

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and take them seriously. 
And and those days we use case 

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that is a lot. 
So you know, we explain to 

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management teams via case that 
is the benefits that ESG could 

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bring to their organization. 
But as are excited, you know, 

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it's changed dramatically in the
last 45 years. 

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But even more in the last 18 
months, and now, you know, 

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management teams are coming 
towards saying, you know, at the

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first meeting saying, you know, 
we really like power time 

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because of their ESG stands, and
how can you help us? 

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And we're seeing the loans of 
Engagement for management teams 

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now. 
And I think that's what's 

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interesting about the part of 
the market that we invested, I 

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think there's a lot of 
management teams that are really

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wanting to do the right thing, 
but maybe they don't have the 

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resources internally, or they 
don't have the knowledge to do 

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that. 
And I think that's where private

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Equity houses that are taken a 
leading stance on ESG, can 

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really help management teams as 
well and we can support them 

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through that process. 
That Palatine. 

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We have to in-house 
sustainability experts, as well.

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So we can bring bring resource 
to the table to help those 

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management teams on their 
Journey that maybe they don't 

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have internally in their own 
organizations. 

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If it's something that sort of 
gives you the edge during an 

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auction process, and if it 
becomes more competitive, is it?

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Something you kind of use as 
leverage as putting the ESG into

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the value creation process? 
Yeah, definitely. 

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I mean with our stance on on ESG
and you know, Palestine is now 

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we went through a rebranding to 
more line, our branding as well 

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with what we do. 
So you know our branding is now 

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positive Equity so we put it 
front and center in terms of 

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when we're speaking to 
management teams and I certainly

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think you know because we've got
that that backlog of examples 

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and case it is what we've done 
on ESG. 

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We can we can talk to management
teams about that and it 

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certainly does give us an 
advantage at the moment. 

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However, However, I do think, 
you know, asg's top of the 

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agenda for the most private 
Equity house at the moment. 

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So I think a lot of people are 
now putting a lot of resource. 

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And, you know, I've seen in the 
private Equity industry on 

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LinkedIn. 
You know, lots of people hiring 

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their own internal ESG people as
well. 

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So, yeah, and that's what we 
wanted to know at Palatine. 

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We've been really proactive in 
promoting ESG in the industry. 

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We've been doing that for many 
years now. 

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So, you know, it's great to see 
The the the industry as a whole 

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is now really embracing the 
issue as well. 

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And then with both, you guys 
will want to look at much 

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further down, the holding period
as your about, looking to exit a

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business, looking at the sort of
financial returns of the sale. 

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Do you think that adding this, 
that kind of sustainable Edge 

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during the valuation for five 
years? 

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Prior can be used to leverage a 
higher price? 

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And have you had any experience 
of this happening? 

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Eric you maybe want to start? 
Yeah, no. 

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I mean, I'm in first of all, I 
mean, you You see that in 

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scientific analysis, I just read
the report by PCA all term 

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saying that there's a on average
of 15%, DSG premium, you know, 

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all multiples. 
So I think that's, you know, you

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see that reported I've seen that
in the sale of sort era seen 

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that in the sale of your own my 
own business, but I think it's 

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a, it's a two-fold thing. 
I think, what we do is that we 

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really we believe in the moral 
obligation and we like sort of 

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the marketing Ploy of it. 
But we really going after 4:00 

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The Competitive Edge of doing 
this, right? 

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And with the Competitive Edge 
I've seen, you know businesses 

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will be, you know, five times 
the ebitda based on moving this 

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dialogue away from a price. 
Only public tender Market into 

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Autumn partnership oriented 
sustainability dialogue and like

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so. 
So I've seen that type of effort

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on the ebitda level and when you
get to the the multiple 

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expansion as well based on 
growth and and ESG. 

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Then that is a very that's a 
very potent mix. 

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And I think, I think you see 
that, you know, we try to be, we

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have an in-house developed 
approach for how we gauge. 

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Whether something is impactful 
or not, right answer, we tried 

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to use that on our, our history,
you know, of of Investments. 

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And we have, you know, several 
hundred investment investment 

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companies that were, you know, 
that we've had. 

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If you only look at the ones 
that we've exited what you see 

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is that the ones that are 
scoring, you know, highly on it.

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Impact versus the others. 
It's a three point seven times 

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multiple on on the rest and as 
six point three more times 

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multiple or money on these g1's.
So I mean that that both numbers

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are really high but it's 
considered six point three 

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times. 
That's that's amazing. 

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That's definitely a massive sort
of leap up in the mold of whole 

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Beth. 
Did you have anything to add? 

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Because I understand that Paulo 
times recently, published a 

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report on these on these return.
Yeah, and so we just did an 

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exercise. 
So, we've been collected, we 

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have this six full of Frameworks
that I've mentioned before and 

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we do a numerical scoring across
the six pillars for each of the 

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businesses that we invest in. 
We update that numerical scoring

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on an annual basis, and then 
exit, we obviously update it for

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the exit and honor for us to do 
the ESG exit review, and we have

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just gone through a process of 
mapping that to Returns on the 

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business as well. 
And we went into it with an 

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open. 
In mind to say, okay, let's see 

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if there's a link between 
companies that score really well

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on the ESG and companies that 
give the battery turns and we 

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found a really strong 
correlation across those two 

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metrics. 
And you know, not only companies

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that score better on ESG deliver
better returns, but also 

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companies that improved the most
as well. 

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I'm ESG were the highest returns
for Palatine as well. 

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So there's a really strong 
correlation there now. 

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Little bit difficult to do a 
cause and effect. 

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So it might be that the best 
management teams Embrace, ESG 

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more and therefore, the best 
management teams all of you the 

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best returns as well. 
It might be that there's a 

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particular pillar in the issue 
that really moves the needle. 

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So we have a people pillar. 
Is it that pillar? 

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That's really moving the needle 
on return. 

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So I think there's a lot more 
analysis and we are expanding 

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out that analysis now at the 
moment and we'll hope to deliver

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a much more comprehensive 
report, but there's certainly 

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Um, the evidence that we've seen
internally within Palatine, a 

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very strong correlation between 
ESG performance and and Returns 

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on those companies, I guess that
whenever we talk about returns 

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and ESU performance, we have 
talked about the lp. 

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Do you find that impact of ESG? 
On returns is something you're 

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having to pick up more and more 
with LP's. 

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We've sort of discuss asleep in 
the return money multiple jor-el

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Pisa, absolutely love That Eric 
didn't want to steal the spray 

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your conversation. 
Yeah, sure. 

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I mean, I mean only going back 
to 2017, I remember sitting in 

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the hotel room in Boston, 
striking out the word impact 

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because impact, in some people's
view were, you know, lower 

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returns. 
And I think that that, that that

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is not the case. 
Any longer ended up with 

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discussions, we are having with 
our LPS, you know, they, we have

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the same returns and impact and 
in fact, we actually believe you

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in high returns that's I just 
alluded to in the, you know, in 

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the morning, multiple said 
previously, right? 

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So, so I think this is very well
and I think that it's a key part

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of any discussion with our LPS 
at the moment and they're very, 

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very interested in this work. 
And I think that also, you know,

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we are trying to move the needle
on how to do impact Investments,

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and I think that, you know, we 
have, to be honest. 

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We, I mean, we don't know how we
have trying to just learn from 

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the best. 
We try to take the two to expand

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by our own knowledge, but then 
to be very, very old Open with 

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others. 
You know, not now hopefully with

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bats and the and with our LPS to
have an open book on how we do 

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it so we can learn from each 
other and to really sort of 

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again, move the needle even 
further on impact Investments. 

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I think that's a, an approach 
that the LPS, like they want the

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returns. 
They want to have the impact on 

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the world and they want to part 
of moving this industry forward.

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And Beth, did you have anything 
to add on this LP? 

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Now, just agree. 
Totally agree. 

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I think we're back in 2017 
impact slightly different from 

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ESG so we should say it 
Palatine. 

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See is g is how a company 
delivers its goods and services.

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We see impact more about what 
company does as its core 

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business. 
So but certainly back in 2000 

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and I think well I think 
ambassadors of always got that 

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ESG, I think it's been difficult
to link that at to returns and I

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think now we're getting enough 
stats to link those two returns.

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00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,600
I think that's really great. 
I think investors have always 

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00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,900
been really positive on ESG and 
I've always, you know, being 

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00:16:56,900 --> 00:17:00,200
very positive on what we do on 
yesterday for sure. 

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00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,900
And as always seen as a benefit 
I suppose what they haven't 

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00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:05,599
necessarily. 
What they are starting to do now

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00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:10,900
is insisting and not only 
insisting that that that private

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Equity houses have a policy but 
insisting that private equity 

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00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,700
She's actually Implement that 
policy and there's evidence that

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00:17:18,700 --> 00:17:21,700
that policy is being implemented
and what are the outcomes from 

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00:17:21,700 --> 00:17:24,900
from that as well. 
So I think that's really moved 

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00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:27,000
on and I think you know, 
obviously investors have always 

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00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,700
been positive Aeneas to but now 
the sign to say, right, okay? 

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00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,700
What is the evidence that you 
are implementing this across 

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00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:35,700
your portfolio on the impact 
side? 

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00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:39,400
You know, back in 2017 as Eric 
Seidel, we were having to do a 

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00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,900
lot of convincing that you could
generate private Equity returns 

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00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:45,800
from an impact strategy. 
And we spent a lot of Of time 

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00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,700
talking about that with with 
with our peas. 

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00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:51,800
And you know, I think we spend 
less time talking about that 

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00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,500
now. 
I think that link between impact

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00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:57,200
and returns is there you know 
with you know there's some great

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00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,500
examples now of exits within 
impact funds and so I think 

317
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:04,700
investors are getting that 
concept now as well. 

318
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:09,500
Yeah and I would just like to 
just add to that that I mean I 

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00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:12,600
love the fact that our latest 
found that actually has an 

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00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,300
impact carry so it's an impact 
carry element. 

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00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:19,200
Where you know we did the 
impetus is on us to prove that 

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00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,700
we are actually having input 
impacts and so so and that you 

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00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:27,600
know that that goes down even to
our you know, private Equity 

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00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,400
conversations. 
I think that's, that's beautiful

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00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,000
because then the new world on 
the same page trying to do the 

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00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,600
right thing. 
I think Do you think this idea 

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00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,400
of impact carry something more 
and more private Equity firms 

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00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,900
are going to be taking up in the
not too distant future, I think 

329
00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:43,900
so. 
And I think it's going to be 

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00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:47,700
bigger but, you know, I will see
you, but I, but I, but I hope so

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because I think it keeps 
everybody honest. 

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00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:55,200
Sure sure and where I don't want
to finish this conversation 

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00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:01,200
around returns and esj is around
lessons, is you mentioned 

334
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,100
earlier, Eric about how nice it 
is that we can sort of learn 

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00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:09,100
from one another with with this 
especially with the LPS and for 

336
00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:13,800
any of our private Equity 
friends listening, what is one 

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00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:17,100
sort of less than you think. 
They could learn about how to 

338
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:20,900
improve The Return by improving 
the sustainability. 

339
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,300
Payable methodology within a 
portfolio company. 

340
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:26,600
Eric, you want to go back? 
Yes sir. 

341
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,700
So so so I'll go back to where I
started in the in. 

342
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:33,400
You know you have to think about
the the return of the firm and 

343
00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:37,400
you know my old firm, we were 
the fifth largest Transportation

344
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,900
provider here in the nordics and
so everyone had the idea that 

345
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:44,100
would impact your 
sustainability, but must come 

346
00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:48,700
from Battery vehicles, that that
would be hugely sustainable, you

347
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:52,300
know, on an environmental side 
But, you know, we had, we had 

348
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:55,700
this thought that look, that's 
right, we have to do that and we

349
00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:59,100
cannot be a laggard, in terms of
electrifying our Fleet, but 

350
00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:01,200
that's not, that's not a 
sustainable competitive 

351
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,300
Advantage, because, you know, we
can, we cannot buy better 

352
00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:08,000
vehicles from skarner or well 
will than anybody else. 

353
00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:11,400
So, this is a hygiene factor and
not the Competitive Edge. 

354
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,800
So what we can do in that firm 
was to look at the materials 

355
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,900
that's really difficult to 
materials knowledge. 

356
00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:20,800
The new technology to create 
better Morse recycled materials.

357
00:20:20,900 --> 00:20:25,100
That we can be different on it 
will hugely impactful, it will 

358
00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:27,300
be something that we can 
differentiate them. 

359
00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:30,100
And so the point of this whole 
story is that I think that you 

360
00:20:30,108 --> 00:20:33,300
have to spend time on, you'll 
not ticking the boxes, not 

361
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:34,800
taking sort of the obvious 
things. 

362
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,200
But to figure out, you know 
what, on one hand really matters

363
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,200
and at the same time, really 
differentiate you. 

364
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,900
And when you, when you spend 
time, trying to figure out those

365
00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:47,000
old to do things in parallel, 
then I think that can have huge 

366
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,100
impact on the returns as well 
as, as your impact. 

367
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,000
Any final thoughts? 
Well, I think we've learned a 

368
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,700
lot over the years and I always 
say, yes, G is a journey, not a 

369
00:20:58,708 --> 00:21:02,000
destination. 
So we are learning all the time.

370
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,400
So you know, you never sit and 
think I'm gonna ask you, you 

371
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,200
never are there so many more 
things that you can be doing and

372
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,900
it involves and that's what 
makes it. 

373
00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:12,800
A really, really exciting 
industry as well. 

374
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,100
To be to be a part of because 
it's content continually 

375
00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:18,800
evolving. 
I think, you know, some people 

376
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,200
can get a bit overwhelmed by 
ESG, you know, if you're trying 

377
00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:28,300
to start now and there's lots of
Regulation coming in and it can 

378
00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:30,900
be a little bit overwhelming, I 
think. 

379
00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:35,700
And so I usually say to people 
just start somewhere, I think it

380
00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:38,500
can paralyze people from 
actually just starting doing 

381
00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:42,800
anything with only introduced. 
Oh, you know, just, just just if

382
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,100
you start along your process, 
you know, start point in time 

383
00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:49,300
but then have a commitment to 
get better every year. 

384
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:53,900
So you can't go from nought to 
60 in in, you know, Straight 

385
00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:56,900
away. 
It's taken Palatine 12 years to 

386
00:21:56,900 --> 00:22:01,000
get to where we are today. 
And so I would say start 

387
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,500
somewhere. 
I have that commitment to get 

388
00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:07,000
better every year and understand
that it is a journey, not a 

389
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,300
destination. 
Janna and I was just to sort of 

390
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,500
sum it up my butt. 
I think our favorite sgg is 

391
00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:17,900
number 17 cooperation and I 
think that's what's going to 

392
00:22:17,908 --> 00:22:19,700
take to to move it. 
Move this here now. 

393
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:22,000
So me and I'll just like to take
the opportunity to say, look at 

394
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,200
anyone who's struggling with it 
or that one to sort of cooperate

395
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,500
share ideas. 
You know, figure out how to go 

396
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:30,600
to from nought to 60, you know, 
reach out. 

397
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,500
And you know, we are available. 
I'd love to be to be able to 

398
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:36,600
discuss these ideas with anyone 
on the corporate level or on LP 

399
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,800
level or other DPS. 
So just reach out. 

400
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,500
Yeah, now we just published our 
ESG Journey over the last sort 

401
00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:49,100
of ten years report as well, 
which has got lots of, really 

402
00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:52,100
great tips and hints and, and 
details. 

403
00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:54,300
What we've done is Geo over that
time. 

404
00:22:54,300 --> 00:22:56,600
So that's I think that's a good 
place to have a look. 

405
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,600
If you want to get some ideas 
for sure, amazing. 

406
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,000
What a great note to finish on 
Seth. 

407
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,600
Eric, thank you so much for 
taking the time to talk to me 

408
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,600
through this. 
It's definitely a really 

409
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:08,800
interesting. 
In one. 

410
00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:08,800
In one.