Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akio, and if
you're interested in working from anywhere, finding
fulfillment and joy in what you do on a day today and getting
stuff done with patience and empathy, this episode is for
you. Joining me today is Ava Sahravi
Ruiz. She's had many titles, mentor,
speaker, marketing, and brand director.
But what I truly love about her is her perspective on time and
the patience in which she operates to get stuff done.
And she loves what she's doing. She even has a podcast, which
I'll put in the description below.
Check her out. And with that being said, enjoy
the episode beyond. Coding.
So you're actually you're planning for 2025, but what is
that planning then because you're you know when kind of the
period is you want to go, are you looking at?
For for Japan, Yeah, yes. Also 2024 already.
Like, OK, yeah, I want to go every year.
Yeah, every year. But in 2025 there is this 3 and
Allah this art. A contemporary art fest that
only happens once every three years.
So that one is for sure happening, but that we are going
to that area in Japan. But Japan for me, for as long as
I can in my life, it will be every year a yearly thing.
Yes. Incredible.
Yes. Yes, I said.
I want to be in contact with this culture.
And with this way of living and and these people and nature and
I don't know, I don't know what this country has, but I want to
be in contact with this every year for two to three weeks.
Have you thought about like picking your stuff off and
living there as well for like a? Longer period, I think, Oh well,
if it was work related like I could see myself if I would have
a project of like going there for six months to a year, yeah.
I would sign up. Sounds like the dream.
Immediately. But to live there, I think, and
also I'm not so sure like when it then comes to work
environment, I think it's it's a pretty difficult culture.
It's tough from what I've seen, yeah.
To work with, to work for. Also, as a woman, I I'm not sure
if I would. Want to comply too much to the
rules in that regard and they're quite strict and I do know
people working with Japanese people, not everybody, but it's
not easy. So I think the best is as
visitor I can imagine, Yeah, I was thinking back actually.
I don't think I talked about this when I joined CV, The team
I was working with, we had a few teams, like two or three, and
there was one team that was working and building a product
that was gonna go live in one of the Japanese regions.
Yeah, specifically. And they also got the experience
because they wanted to meet the people there.
So they flew over there and I wasn't in the team.
I was. So I was so jealous.
Yeah. And then I was like, I wanna be
in this team. And then when I moved to that
team, we pivoted from Japan to Russia.
So. That's quite we also, we also
traveled to Russia, but then I I couldn't go because I already
had something booked. So basically, I missed out on
the trip to Japan and I also missed out on the trip to
Russia. I would definitely, yeah.
Plan it in in in in whichever way to to go there.
I mean or I don't know or maybe it is for me really, it's really
touching. They say everybody has like a
spirit place or like spirit country.
Yeah, I think that that that's for me.
I don't know why once once I land there.
It's very special. I feel very at home, very
relaxed, very happy. So yeah, and every time it's
just the contrast is so big with us that it's the only place that
I get surprised in a very positive way.
But something that I didn't expect or didn't know about, or
like two to three times a day, that doesn't happen anywhere.
And even before your first trip, did you already have this kind
of thought of the Japanese culture?
Was it really when you landed there?
You know, when I, when I finally landed there, for me it was
like, how come did it take me this long to come here?
Because I knew already that I was going to absolutely love it.
Yeah. I don't know why it took me that
long, but yeah, but I finally did.
And then since I was there, it's like, Oh my gosh, no, I have to
continue coming back because it's so big, it's so huge that
you're never ending. The the country.
So it's I have like almost like fear missing out so much right
now. Yeah, yeah, it's really and and
and I have to say, people have a misconception about what it
takes financially to to travel to Japan or the Japan.
It's a very expensive country. It's not really the case.
No, no, no, that that was something from, I don't know,
the 80s maybe when the yen was very strong.
But it's not the case. It's really not the case.
Of course you have to pay for your flights, which also they're
not as expensive as any other, you know, foreign destination.
And once you get there, of course you can be in the €700
night hotel room. But but no, it's not expensive
at all, both to stay and to eat. Not at all.
People have it completely wrong. Yeah, yeah, it's really not
expensive. No, no.
It's really like €8.00 for lunch, like proper lunch and
like. €20 for dinner, but like a good dinner.
Like, people don't even realize that that's what I had in
Portugal. Yeah, that's one of the big
reasons why I loved it. Yeah, but people wouldn't think
of going to Japan because of that and and my my reference is
the vending machines which are everywhere and such a culture.
Yeah, it's every other 10 meters.
You have a vending machine and and for me, the reference is the
bottle of water in the vending machine has had the same price
since 2017. Wow.
Yeah. Really.
Yes. Okay, Yeah, it's like ¥100 and
then and then it's like okay ¥100.
Five years ago it was like €1.30 or something and now ¥100, it's
like $0.69. It hasn't changed so because
they are so. Into themselves.
I think that they just don't deal with changes for their for
their people, they're probably everybody earns the same prices
remain the same. They don't have like I don't
know and the prices have not changed.
So for us, every year it becomes even cheaper being there because
just eating, buying food during the day, a coffee, anything.
It's just. Coming from the Netherlands is
way cheaper a week in Tokyo than going to the supermarket here.
Yeah, yeah. So no, people have a but they've
kept it. I think they keep, they keep the
myth, so people stay away. I think because many people put
off the idea of going to Japan because they're afraid that it's
going to be so expensive, I said Yeah, I always thought it was
going to be chunky. I feel like I have less and less
reasons not to come. Yes, yes.
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I would 100 percent,
1000%. Recommended.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you always kind of traveled
around? Like I know Japan is like a big
thing and it's it's a yearly thing since 2017 as it always
been other countries as well. Yes, I'm I'm a big I'm a big
traveler. I I love traveling I I love the
the the idea especially to islands.
I don't know why but I I am a bit of an island freak.
So yeah, so, and Japan is also an island, so.
So I usually end up for already since a few years.
The majority of my time is always on islands.
Yeah, and it's always like okay. Where is?
Where is the next island to to go and to discover and and yeah,
less and less as I'm becoming older and older, but but I am a
very avid traveler, like getting in contact with new people,
culture, food, just. Being outside of your usual
place and especially if it can be good weather warm by the sea.
Where I can get up in the morning and have a swim as the
first thing in the morning. And and and just be surrounded
by by water. And and on a place which
actually some people might feel claustrophobic on on an island.
And I can and and I get the opposite, like when I know I'm
in this place and it's just, you know.
Nowhere to go. It's actually.
I feel very happy. Yeah.
Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah.
And then and then doors are open.
People know each other. Like there's something that the
pace decreases tremendously. The moment you're on an island,
everything's slow, everything's friendly, everything's safe.
And it's beautiful and it's and it's good weather and and and
the landscape is just so I don't know why but yeah I love
absolutely love islands. Yeah, I hope to end up living on
on on one. I think you will.
Yeah, I think I will. I think I will, Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, either in Spain or somewhere else, but I think so,
or at least part of the year. Maybe not fully because it also
ends up being quite lonely and and sad in winter for example,
if. Or if you depend on a ferry or
it depends on how how small you go but so maybe not the entire
year but definitely at least half of it or or or big parts.
Yeah so so no. But I it it was always in my in
my family since I was little. We always traveled always,
always, always every year to a different place.
And then you you get used to that and then that curiosity, it
just continues to grow and and. And and for me that was also one
of the reasons why I decided at some point to to to also step
out of like traditional corporate life where I would
only get like 20-5 days a year of holiday, which I thought
this, this, this model doesn't, doesn't work.
No, we have 365 a year and we only get 20 or 25 in this
country, let alone other countries where they get like
one week or. Or two weeks, I think.
This is absolutely crazy. I want to travel and I want it
to be the other way around. I want to first travel and then
do some work to also facilitate that lifestyle more than
anything else. So yes, yeah, being somewhere
else. And discovering other people and
cultures, it's like the moment I land anywhere, it's like, yeah,
happy. Yeah.
I mean, I'm getting more and more addicted to that.
I'm not like you in the way that when I was growing up, we didn't
really travel a lot. I have a big family and a lot of
families abroad. But when we travel, it was
usually for, like weddings or for senior family.
It wasn't really for, like, sightseeing.
So even like my parents are both from Turkey, I would go there,
but I wouldn't really know where I was in the city where we would
go to. I would go from door to door,
from my aunt to my granddad to, I don't know where, to a
wedding. So that was always kind of the
vibe. And then once I got working
more, once I started earning my own money, I started kind of
thinking about traveling and actually wanting to travel.
Before I joined Sybia, I wanted a start date that was going to
be somewhere in January and my manager said, well, you can
join, but we don't have a project for you, so maybe you
always wanted to travel somewhere.
And that's where I was like maybe maybe yes, yes.
So I I booked like a trip for myself to New York City because
I always said I had wanted to go there.
I had never been. So that was kind of my first
experience there. I'm very bad at taking holidays,
taking time off. So I I had always a lot of time
and now, especially with my girlfriend because she loves
traveling. We've been traveling more and
more and probably when people are listening to this episode, I
mean I'm going to be working from remote, I'm going to work
from Barcelona again. It's something we did last year,
in May we did Portugal and soon I'm going to do Barcelona again.
And I love kind of having this flexibility of balancing
personal experiences, traveling as well as work life.
Now that is. Now they're like in parallel.
And that is the best thing that has come out out of this whole
situation that we've had in the last couple of years.
The fact that before for me was also like.
Either I work on a project or I travel.
There was nothing in between and now there is the possibility of
combining being somewhere else. Get embedded in the culture and
also not have the rush of going everywhere like if you go for a
month. To Barcelona, like you don't
have to get like completely crazy every day.
Like we got to go everywhere and we're going to be here for a
month and you kind of feel like you you live there.
I had the same. I wasn't that much from like the
weekend trips or like in and out fast.
And no, I, I, I, I would start the year in Bali or I would
start somewhere else for like a month or two and and really take
the time to be there. Only it was.
A break and then work and now those two things can be combined
and that makes it even more interesting.
I never thought that that would come that quickly, where I could
be on an island somewhere and be working for my clients and have
time for myself and time to be there exactly.
Yeah, but even before then, you already had this itch, because
25 vacation days is I I get that.
It's not. Yes, yes, I completely get that.
Yeah. Is that a big reason why you
kind of stepped out of the corporate life or or what were a
few other reasons? It was, it was, it was a big
one. It was it was having the
opportunity to have more time for for myself and and to be
able to do several things. One also like you know, I have
my mother who is getting old and and she lives in Valencia in
Spain where I come from. And normally I would like go in
and out in a weekend. After a week of work I would get
a flight, arrive on a Friday, leave on a Sunday or maybe
Thursday evening, take Friday off in and out and and stressed
and tired. And now I can go there for two
weeks or three weeks or take the time that I that I want to have
and and if I would do that on a regular contract.
Go to Valencia for two to three weeks.
That's gone. My holidays are gone, yeah.
And then you have Christmas and that's it.
So it's like and then no, so, so being able to go to Valencia for
longer periods of time and without having to rush and not
stressed and just also have the opportunity to be there, to be
present. Yeah, exactly, exactly, indeed.
I I. I take time, I go to the beach,
I sleep a lot. I go out to restaurants like I
take care of her and we take time together.
So it's much nicer that and then having my own time for my own
travels as well, where indeed I want to go like one to two to
three months at the beginning of the year in winter away.
I don't want to be here in the cold and and and the rain, so,
so and and. If if I were to work as a
freelancer or if I were to have my own company, I can have the
luxury position where I can work nine months a year and that's
and that's enough. And of course I could work 11.
But if I can work 9 and be off for three months a year, then
then then that's phenomenal. That's incredible.
Yeah, so I made my calculations and I'm like, I'm going to be
making the same amount of money or even more.
That depends on how much I decide to work.
But and then I'm going to be able to have this lifestyle.
So why would I? Why would I go back to a
traditional corporate life? Yeah.
So at the moment that I stepped out, I didn't know that I wasn't
going back because you're still in in that mode.
And there were still talks for me to maybe come back.
But when I really stopped and I. Took distance and I went away
and I went traveling for for about half a year.
It was like no, no, I don't want to go back to that.
I don't want to go back to the. And also one of the reasons was
I don't necessarily want the 9:00 to 5:00 for years and years
with the same people in the same building with the same
conversations. If I can do it for shorter
periods of time where I can go in and out companies help them.
Through a certain period of time and then move on to to the next
place. I will be able this.
I know now also in retrospect, after having done quite a few,
that I can be way more efficient and objective.
I don't have to get into the politics of everything.
Yeah, exactly. So I'm only there to help and
I'm only there to to support. And to enable and to provide and
to guide and to put my expertise to their service.
So it's like you're received in a very different way as well as
the person coming in, because I have 0 interest in any politics
in that regard. I'm just here to help.
So that also means that my expertise or my arrival is is
welcome in a in in in in a very open different way.
Yeah. So there's no questions.
There are no doubts. I, it's always like you know,
thank you good that you're here and let's get to work.
So All in all, it had so much advantages for my own
well-being, for my lifestyle, for my financials, for
everything that I'm like. Yeah, this, this is, this is the
way to go. And I've always done that.
Like, I've always tried things. If it doesn't work, I can always
go back to a regular job tomorrow, right?
So let me try and see if I can create this this lifestyle that
I have envisioned in my head only that was before COVID and
it wasn't that that easy yet. And now things have accelerated
so much more. Yeah, to be able to do that.
So now it's even easier. And also the opportunities have
opened even more in my case beyond the Netherlands, like my
network and my, my business was pretty much the Netherlands
before. And since COVID as well, it has
opened up internationally because people are much more
open for you to be working doesn't matter where.
So, so yeah, it was, it was we were talking before the the the
recording that I was working for a company in Lithuania that I've
never been there, I've never met them, we've never met in real
life and and I'm sitting in Amsterdam or I'm sitting in Sri
Lanka as it happened during the project or I'm sitting in Spain
and it doesn't matter. That's something that would have
been unthinkable a couple years before.
So I I always hoped that one day we would get there, but I
thought it would take another 1520 years for for that to
happen. Yeah.
And now it's happening. So it's it's pretty incredible.
It's incredible, Yeah. When when you were talking about
working from a different country, I mean, I I have the
same. And it feels like, I feel like
it does require a lot of discipline because you are
there, you're in a new environment, you can do so many
things. You can fill up your whole
calendar basically. Yeah.
With activities, yes. Like how do you still be
effective in in the work that you're doing at that same time?
You have any advice there? I I'm very, very committed and
yeah, I'm very responsible in in, in in that regard.
I really and and I I truly enjoy what I do.
So yeah yeah so I really like the the 8 hours that I am
supposed to be working for for that client.
It it doesn't matter where I am. The moment the the time starts
I'm like okay, here we go. I make my coffee, I sit down and
and I really and I really work my hours because I get also
because I work in in. That interim, so I do seven
months, eight months usually You come in with a lot of energy to
be very focused in that time. And for me, seven months is
enough for me to be able to see the effect of my work.
Beautiful. Yeah.
So I really, really put myself to it and I lose myself in it
and I'm super responsible, so. And but I truly enjoy it.
So it's like okay for the time that I'm here.
It doesn't matter where I'm sitting.
This is my working time now and I go in and all I'm thinking is
about the client and my team and the people that I'm working for
and that I'm working with. Yeah, no.
So it takes discipline, but it also depends on the environment
where you are. Like I was mentioning to you
that during that time for this Lithuanian company I went for
three weeks to Sri Lanka and and I was working there starting at
1:00 in the afternoon. So I put get up really early in
the morning and then go surfing or or do yoga and then have a
really great breakfast and then massage or a walk or or whatever
it would be and and lunch and still it was only 1:00 in the
afternoon. And then I would just either
move to the Co working area because I was in a Co working
space and it would be by then it would be full with people.
And you can feel also like all these nomads and all these
people that are there, everybody's working and like
seriously working. Yeah.
And then it's there's work and play, yeah.
And then weekends the place will be completely empty.
It was really a Monday to Friday.
Even though you're in Sri Lanka, everyone around the time where
Europe would wake up or the US depending on, you know, who you
work with, everyone was there. So you get really also like,
it's infectious. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or I would go to my room where I had everything set up because I
was there for quite a long time. So I had perfect connection.
And then I had like a desk and everything.
And then okay 1:00, I go up and then, you know, that's it.
Get to work. And now it's.
I can imagine that it's it can be tempting but but no.
For me it's the other way around is I had the entire morning for
myself which was beautiful and then OK and now work.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I get that as well.
Yeah, I found a way to balance it out.
And I think for me it's also easier because I've always
stayed in the same time zones. Yes.
Like when I would move time zones, that's when I'm like, OK.
Then it probably gets a bit harder because then you have to
manage your own time. Yeah.
If you're not a morning person and all of a sudden you have the
morning off, you find a morning routine, it's like you have to
do something. Yes.
So I've always kind of had that discipline also probably because
it was easier time zone wise. Yeah.
One of the things I love is soon as you go into the evenings or
even on the weekends, you're out of your environment in so much
that you have to kind of reinvent yourself or you put
things in perspective and you you really learn a lot about
what you like and what you don't like.
Because all of a sudden, I mean, there's not a lot of friends
there. And you make new friends.
There's no family there. Usually, yes.
So it's like really kind of, yeah, an adventure, I feel like
every weekend or every night, basically.
And I love that, yes. And it's it's very easy to to to
meet people because everybody is in the same you know mental
space and and many people on their own and many people
working and it just becomes very very easy to connect with people
and people also respect very much okay if you have to work or
if you want time for yourself or if we'll go out or yeah.
And then it's very interesting also the amount of people that
you meet that are completely different to you, at least to
me, because I am much older than than a lot of these people when
when I'm in Sri Lanka, I was, that was, yeah, last year, no,
20, yeah, yeah. So a couple years ago, so I was
like 48 and and people there are like 25.
You don't look that old at all. I must say.
Thanks. Yeah, I know.
But I I just turned 50 actually. Yeah.
Yeah, so. But.
But I don't know, it's also like I have like this young spirit.
Yeah. Yes.
Like I would go to Sri Lanka and be there at 48 and and and and
and there was #1 of 48 like there.
Yeah, but, but, but then I get to talk to people of 25 to 35
and and it would happen often like because I wanted to get up
early and do yoga rather than go party, you know, so so but it
was really funny. Like we would like get together
or have a drink after work and you know on the terrace and
dinner, whatever. And then around 10, o'clock 1030
is when everybody would start saying hey, we're going to meet
downstairs in 5 minutes and we're going to go to some
whatever party. And I was like, okay, See you
tomorrow. Yeah.
Not for me. Yeah.
And then everybody's like, yeah, okay, fine.
You know, cool. Yeah.
And then you see them the morning after.
I like that. And you're all fresh and it's.
But it's cool. But yeah, that makes me also get
out of my normal space and routine and get to meet people
that I would never, yeah, probably meet and on on an age
that I that I don't get in in touch with or or their
lifestyle. It's very different than than
mine in the Netherlands. Absolutely, Yeah.
So it makes it so interesting. Yeah, You touched on kind of
stepping out of the corporate space and I've mentioned many
times also on this podcast that I have thoughts about starting
my own company. I've always said I was going to
do it. I feel like I am going to do
that. Yeah, or even freelancing for a
bit, what we're kind of. The downsides also of stepping
out of that environment, cuz I feel like for me right now, I
feel like it would be a lot more work, right?
Because I'm in control of how much I work.
I'm in control of kind of the project and the assignment.
There's a lot of fears and insecurities that come from
taking that step, yes. What are some of the downsides
you can share? Yeah, I well, it's very strange.
Depends on where you're coming from.
Like I was at the time when I when I left I was at Vodafone
and I was at like the peak of my career.
Very big company and big title and and then you get a lot of
attention. That is something that people
need to be able to deal with. And I always realized that it
wasn't about me, it was about my title.
Yeah, if anyone else in that position would get the same
attention. But I would get often asked to
go and speak at places. I would be asked to go to events
I would get, which I hardly accepted, but loads of
invitations to like the craziest things that you can imagine
like. A podcast?
Yes. Yeah.
And it's something. We're going to fly you on a
helicopter to Ibiza and then we're going to do a part.
It's like, what? No.
Yeah. So it can be very, very tenting
and very enticing. And suddenly all that is gone.
You know, all the press, all the media, all the interviews, all
the all the stuff that you normally would get.
None of it, none of it from from one day to the other.
And and you need to realize that that there is a very high way up
and then there's a very high, you know, low way down.
And you have to be OK with that because suddenly it's it's all
gone. And you need to realize that
that's not your worth. And that's not because it's you,
it's because it's what you represent.
Was it unexpected when it happened?
No, no, no. For me it was fine and I was
totally prepared for it because I never really took that much of
that attention or or like, yeah, I did it for my work and I
enjoyed it very much and and and yeah, and I wanted to sometimes
say things so if I don't have the opportunity with the point
of view, But it was always about Vodafone or our brand or what we
were doing. Same with public speaking.
I absolutely loved it. And then you know that first of
all that that is all gone and then you you come into also a
little bit of like a crisis but not not really my case because I
was like I was open. I was just curious more than
anything. But it's like Oh my gosh.
And now what? Like who?
Who am I? Yeah.
And and and something really interesting happened to me when
I when I quit and and then and then I left and then I went
traveling. The first place was was Bali I
remember, and then the 2nd place was Australia and then I went to
New Zealand and only when I went to New Zealand it was the first
time that on the on the landing card it said profession.
It wasn't on the landing card in in Bali or or in Australia it
said Profession. And I was like oh what?
You have to What do you have to fill in now?
Yeah, exactly. I don't have one.
Like what? What do I say?
Like what? What am I?
So that was that that was quite confronting.
Such a simple thing. Yeah, exactly.
Because you never saw that so visibly.
And then it was like, oh, Oh my gosh, yeah, for the for the
first time in 23 years. I cannot answer.
When somebody tells me what do you do that, that's also quite
shocking, which is your choice. And you've decided that you're
going to go away and take time and think and all of that.
But it's like. Yeah, yeah, What?
What am I? Who am I?
So that's that's. And who am I without the the the
identity of my, of my work, of my job, of my title.
That's that's one. And then the second one is
obviously, when you decide that you're not going to go back to
just the security of a regular job, what's going to happen?
Am I going to get projects? Am I going to get hired?
Am I going to work in the way that I would want to?
And then how and when is that Is that going to happen and am I
going to be able to maintain myself and and that insecurity
or that not knowing if the next project is is going to come or
not. But on the other hand, I what I
what I always tell tell people is I don't do crazy drastic
decisions, like things are pretty calculated.
It looks like quite brave, and maybe it is, but I took a lot of
time to prepare for that exit. I took time to save money for
that trip. I took time for many things and
I still do today, preparing myself with enough money in the
bank to bridge a certain period of time so that if that next
project doesn't come, I don't need to panic necessarily that
quickly. If you go month to month, yeah,
then you have a problem. So and even then, even if it
doesn't work, then I will go back to a regular, to a regular
job. Like people sometimes take, they
have too much fear of the step. But what?
What is the worst, really the worst that can happen?
Like, really, really the most dramatic?
Like, you really cannot eat okay.
Well, there's going to be a friend, there's going to be a
family member, There's going to be someone that I I go to
Valentine and stay with my mother for another two months
until I find a job. Like for me, I was always like
it's not going to, it's never going to be that dramatic unless
it has to do with your health. If you're healthy, what is the
worst that can happen? You will be back on track and I
don't have any problem. If it really was down to being
able to pay my mortgage and I need to work as a cashier in a
supermarket, I will do it. I have 0 like.
Zero issues with that. No, really not really not.
It's like this was my choice. I choice, I choose for
something. It didn't work.
OK, then I need to make another decision.
But I would have zero problem. I think we it wouldn't be a
problem to maintain myself. I'm not going to end up under
the bridge. I have friends that will have me
over like I have family, like you know, it it it won't be that
dramatic. I love that perspective.
Yeah. Do I need to sell my house?
I will. I will sell the house.
Like what? What can I?
Yeah. There's always, yeah, there's
always options. Yes.
Because people fear very much that that step, right?
I mean, I. I wouldn't say like I have
concerns and like you, I would make sure it's calculated risk.
Yeah, but the thought of going back like it's an option.
But if I wanna do something that would never be, let's say Plan B
or C, like it wouldn't be an option.
Basically in my head it would be a step forward and then I don't
think even about stepping back. But the way you're describing
it, you're like, yeah, if it doesn't work out, we just.
We do that again. And yeah, that's it.
Yeah. I feel like this way healthier
and I think and I think that the issue is that many people see
that once you've made such a decision, if you would do
something different that would be seen as a failure.
For me, the point is not so much about corporate or no corporate.
I'm still doing corporate. I'm just doing it in a different
way, but I'm still working with big corporations.
I love marketing, advertising, communications, branding.
I'm still doing the same thing that I was doing before.
If the challenge with a company would come along, and I've been
contacted a few times for permanent roles.
If the challenge would be interesting enough for me to
jump on board for another three years into a company because of
the nature of the challenge, I would do it.
No issues. No, not at all.
So I don't have this thing about corporate.
No corporate you leave, you never go back.
Like why are we so black and white?
Why are we so binary in in in that regard?
For me, it's about what I do every day.
Yeah, great point. So do I enjoy what I'm doing?
Maybe if a company calls me up and I find that company
interesting and what the challenge at hand is interesting
for the next three years, I will do it.
So I don't. Think with any other thing with
any other thing. So for me, it's not about
corporate or not corporate. For me was my lifestyle is not
according to how I would want it to be in the traditional
corporate setting. In the traditional corporate
setting, I don't get the holidays I would want.
I don't get the freedom that I would want.
I get all this politics. And in my mind, I have already
done what was expected of me. Yeah, all the conditioning that
I've been carrying all my life, from family, from friends, from
media, from society, from you have to do career.
You got to go to university, you got to grow, You got to do the
ladder. Yeah, all the boxes.
I felt, I ticked them all, yeah, and I could continue to take
them up, up, up, up, up. But the point?
What's the point? Yeah, it doesn't make you happy.
So it's it's like, for whom am I doing this?
More ticking the box, right? Or having a bigger role or a
bigger job or more people, more money, more budget and more
whatever, like, but but actually, for me the question
was when? When when I was at Vodafone and
then the merger with Seagull came about, that was the moment
that for me was very unexpected to people that I at that moment
left. But that was precisely the
moment for me to leave, because what I was about to be doing
every day was going to change dramatically.
So for me, I've always looked at what is it that I do with the 8
hours that I am involved with my job.
Do I thoroughly enjoy what I'm doing?
Yes. That's why I was at Vodafone for
12 years. Like people were like, Oh my
God, I'm like, you have to switch every three to four years
and five, 6-7, whoa, 8-9, Oh my God.
I'm like, I love what I do every single day.
So I have no rush, no issue, no, no need to go anywhere and do
anything where I'm thoroughly enjoying what I do every day.
And I had a fantastic team and we were on the roll and it was
just the time of my life. But then suddenly this new
decision comes about. Everything's about to change.
Everything is going to be about
the merger. Everything is going to be like
I'm going to have to be for the next three years of my life,
involved with this merger and managing this merger with
everything that comes with it. I was going to have to leave
behind the beautiful work that I was doing purely for the
Vodafone brand because I was going to be concerned with
Vodafone and Seco and managing the merger.
And it was precisely at that point whilst people were
thinking, I have the potential to become the brand director of
two of the biggest brands in the country.
Like, I would be crazy not to. Yeah, and it was precisely when
you did, not when I did not because it was like okay.
But what what am I going to do 8 hours a day for the next three
years of my life? This is going to be totally
about everything that that represents.
I said this is an amazing challenge, but it's just not
mine. Yeah, it has to be for somebody
else. And I had already been there for
12 years. I did everything I wanted to do
ever and more and dreamt of and more so fulfilled every single
day to the very end. And then I put the ribbon and
then it's like okay. And now somebody else has to
come and and I'm going to pass the baton to somebody else and
they can come in and enjoy this challenge, which is not mine.
No to enjoy. And they can own it, yeah, yeah.
But if a corporate company comes in now with a challenge that I'm
thoroughly going to enjoy, of course I will.
So it it to me it's not. So yeah, I find that very
interesting of people feeling for example, that if I've been
freelancing now for six years and I would go back to
corporate, like I have the zero issues with that.
You know, people would find it for them a failure or you go and
you never look back and it's like why do we have that way of
of looking at things? For me it's about what do I do?
I think that's that's beautifully put because it's
about the essence, like I love. Thinking about owning a company
or doing things on my own because they are new challenges.
Yeah, but the reason why I'm still here, we we were talking
about it. I'm going to hit five years,
like next February. Yeah, I'm like, man, that's a
long time, But it's still the time that I enjoy.
I get to go to Barcelona and work from there for a month.
I have full flexibility. I get to do this podcast like
there's so many things, so many avenues.
I get to work more with people now.
I'm now a team lead and I'm going to do.
I have challenges there with people.
Now it's besides projects like. There's still so many things I
love doing here and I have the flexibility to do.
So yeah, that yeah, I love it here.
I I I think there's so many of those beliefs that that have
been somehow embedded in in our in our society and in our work
life. Like that's a long time.
Yeah, but what the but? But what does that matter?
What is the time effect? Like, yeah, but like, you have
maybe another 30-40 years to go, Like, like what?
Absolutely. What?
What is the rush like?
I don't understand what why are we putting time as a as an issue
in in in the time that we are at a company as if the need is just
to move on whilst we are not contemplating like okay.
But do you enjoy what you do every day that that is for me
the one thing that I don't know where it comes from but it's
naturally always been with me. I can truly say that every from
moment 0 till now in my career, everything that I have done, I
have really enjoyed and when I didn't then I left.
That's when you move. Yeah.
That's when I moved. But but not because oh, it's
been three years. Yeah.
But I still have a lot to do and every day I'm enjoying it and
there are more possibilities and there is growth and there is
potential. And I have a great set of
colleagues and and I really, truly every day I go to work
with with a smile on my face and and and with ideas constant like
my list is always endless right of like.
So much to do. And and if you have that energy,
then then what time for me was always completely irrelevant.
I mean, I can give you my perspective and this was the
perspective of like let's say 5-6, seven years ago it was I
want to grow as fast as possible because that was always came out
of uni. I wanted to.
I mean I saw titles, I still want to get there.
I wanted to grow as fast as possible, right?
For me it was always OK How much fun do I have growing?
How big is the impact that I can make?
And with more knowledge and more experience comes a greater
impact. Yeah.
And with that I never thought, okay, I'm going to go from
company to company and then increase my reach there.
No, it was always I'm going to join.
I'm going to join a company. I'm going to give it my all
right. It's going to be everything.
I love building relationships. I know exactly who to call when
I need something done. I'd love knowing people and
people knowing me and knowing we are effective together,
Basically, yes. And I've really enjoyed that.
And when that is gone, that is the only reason why I would move
from companies. Basically, yeah.
When I stop enjoying what I'm doing, when there's no more
challenges, when challenges get removed due to a reorganization
or something like that, stuff happens.
It can be within your team, within your influence or
completely outside factors. And that's when I've moved on.
Now I don't have a huge career history because I it was like 3
companies based in one was within another company.
Ish. So, but yeah, that's kind of
the. The thought process, I still
want to grow as fast as possible and if that stops here, I think
that's when it's time to move on then.
And what is What is growth? For me, it's growth.
It's both on a personal level as well as on a work level.
Yeah. So I want to get better at life
skills, basically. I want to learn that on the job,
when it comes to public speaking, meeting other people,
socializing, networking, yes, being really empathetic with
people, helping people, allowing for their fulfillment to be my
happiness basically. That's more on a personal level
and on a work level. It's more so about the skills
being effective with what I do, doing that faster, doing the
right thing, not just building something, but building it for
customers for value there. And I feel like on both axes, I
want to grow, I want to get better.
I still meet people. I'm working with one guy
specifically now on my team and it's just it's a pure joy seeing
someone at that level executing. I'm like, man, it's still gonna
take me so long to get there. Maybe I'll never get there, but
I'm really enjoying working together right now and I don't
want it to end. Yeah, Nice.
Yeah. Really, really cool.
Yeah. For me, what I learned with the
years at the beginning, obviously the first jobs, I
didn't have that perspective. But what the change for me,
which I also give to the people that I coach in their careers is
to say what, what is, what is the intention that you have for
the time that you're going to be in in that company?
Like when people talk about impact, for example, it's like,
can we quantify what what that impact is or what, what is that
impact for you? Like do do you want to clean up
all the plastic in the oceans? I mean is that, is that your
level of impact or or or would you love to be able to impact on
people like to see their growth or or change or whatever or do
you want to grow this company from 10 million to 100 that can
also be like what what is that, that impact, what would you like
to have done by the time you leave and then walk backwards
and try to do that? Lay out the path, yeah.
And then and only then leave. And then that's going to give
you so much pride and joy. Because I get to work with many
people that are moving or leaving companies out of
despair, sadness, resentment. They're done tired.
They don't see it anymore. The challenges are not coming.
Their their leaders are not inspirational.
All of these things, which is a lot of external factors indeed,
which sometimes we don't have control, but there is a lot of
internal factors that we do have control.
Even if it sounds difficult or even.
But many people I work with is like, there is zero kind of
quantifiable idea of what is it that you would like to do before
you go within the constraints and within the situation that
you have within this company. Doesn't matter.
But you know it kind of like what you can and cannot do.
And even if you have to change certain things in the company,
if you put yourself to it and you have the energy for it, then
could that also be the impact you want to leave behind?
Could be that you want to change the culture, could be, you name
it, many things that are potentially in your control for
you to have an effect on, and it can be your own personal agenda.
It's not like people need to know Exactly.
Yeah, and I had many hidden agendas.
In a good way, yeah. Yeah, in a good way to try to
have a positive effect in the company or in people or
transform the culture or the brand or whatever it was.
And I was clear about that is what I want to achieve.
And until I don't do that, I'm not leaving because I'm on a
mission to change something or to do something.
And and many people don't have that.
They don't have a specific mission for themselves, even if
it's just very simple, yeah. Is that easy for you to kind of
lay out and also towards the future Because that's for me
what I have more a hard time with.
Yeah, because I'm usually and I feel like I'm getting better at
it. But especially past versions of
me have been a lot reactive. Yes, as in this is now an
opportunity and I can see a lot of enjoyment in there.
Yeah, but I would never lay out that I want to grow towards
there and. Do that basically.
I understand. I understand.
Yeah it is it is it it takes it comes sometimes with with age
maybe that clarity or but it's not only because I I I had it
when I was when I was young as well.
Like I think it's interesting to find intrinsically what what
drives you what what do you care about is that the question is
really what do you care about. I care about consideration, to
be considerate to other people and to be mindful and to be
respectful. That for me is so embedded in
me. I don't know why, but it's truly
fundamental, it's core, it's core to me.
I care that people are respectful and that they are
mindful of of 1 another and how we deal with with each other.
But also when it has to do with companies like how does this
company behave? So sometimes I get people
telling me like, yeah, but I am very low in the organization
like I don't have a lot of control, I don't have a lot of
influence and I'm like that's that's not really an excuse.
When I was, and I give these examples, sometimes when I was
just at the beginning of my career as a as a communications
specialist, I I was only looking at at advertisements that our
agency would write and then I would approve them or not and
then publish them. Like that was as far as my you
know. Those are things influence went,
or my decision level. But still again, my hidden
agenda was I don't necessarily like how corporates talk, how
they speak to people, how they address people also in their
advertising. Toner voice.
Toner voice Yeah it's very patronizing and and and and very
much from we are on the top of the mountain and you the little
people you do what I tell you to do exactly and the level of
arrogance I I I really had an issue.
I can. I can see the resentment.
Yeah. Yeah.
So and and I mean I'm I'm talking about like maybe 20
years ago which was much worse than how today.
Also the tone is overall in in in in society.
But and and still I would make a point and I would have my little
fights with my with my advertising agency as.
Much as you can, as much as I can to make that piece of text
respectful and and not to be patronizing and not to be
arrogant and to put myself really to the service of the
customer that I was sending that ad to.
As I grew up and as I went up and I had more and more you
know, responsibility and decision making power.
Of course then I've made my impact even bigger in in that
sense with like truly trying to transform an entire company and
an entire brand. But it doesn't really matter.
Wherever I go I always have it in me.
This thing about how can this be better, how can we improve this,
How can this be good for someone?
Can we do something? Wouldn't it be better if I have
that always, with every single thing I do?
So it doesn't matter how small your influence is, if you know
what you are about and what you care about.
I do care about this. And maybe other people wouldn't
care at all about this text. And did people see it really
like, did it? Did people notice?
No. But it was for me.
It was never about other people. Yeah, exactly.
I was like, I was happy to go home that day with having a
respectful piece of text that didn't make any impact in the
history of the world, but it was.
But it's my life, yeah. And it's my you.
Have to make impact in the world.
That's the impact that it does on me to be happy to at least my
ads are going to be good and respectful.
In line with what you value exactly in, in line with with
what I care and what I really truly also believe that
corporates need to be much more serviceminded and to put
themselves really in in that role.
So that's always how I how I looked at everything So and I I
didn't have at that moment like okay.
I will only leave when my ads are going to be that way.
But but because I was in no in no place to be living, because I
was very happy with what I was doing.
But I always had like some kind of impact or some kind of goal
that I wanted to achieve. Even if just for myself where I
could see the effect of what I do and if even within when when
you have very little influence, yeah it doesn't.
It doesn't really matter. And I and I and I said it many
times. If I had to, if I had to go and
work at the supermarket as as a cashier, I would, I would find
ways to to make it better, to improve it, to to be of good
service to the people coming in like it's in me.
So it doesn't matter where you are and or how big you are in
the organization or how fast you go.
I think sometimes people have that like it's not very clear
what that is. And because it's not clear and
it's not going to come out of nowhere, then we get lost.
And then it's like, well, I have to go somewhere else.
Yeah. And then eight months later,
it's going to be the same. You have the same in the next
place because you didn't figure out out of yourself, what do you
really, truly care about? And what are you here to do with
your intention in the time that you're going to that you're
going to be here. And maybe you thought it was
going to be one way, and then you come in, and then after a
few months you might discover, well, maybe, maybe not.
But still, even then, what with the possibilities that you have
for as long as you're going to be here every day when you come
and you open your laptop, how are you going to view things in
what way? What are you going to do?
What do you want to what do you want to achieve for yourself.
And it's so much nicer and so much better to than two years
357 doesn't matter. Whenever you're like, oh, I I I
did that thing and and that was for me the the thing with
Vodafone is like, oh I did that. I did what I wanted to do it
transform this brand. Now we are on A roll.
Unfortunately, it's gonna stop. But I did what I set myself out
to do. Fulfillment.
Yeah. And then now is the moment for
me to go. And therefore I'm totally okay
with leaving and moving onwards and passing it on to somebody
else. And now it's there challenge.
Exactly, yeah. And then when I go now, even as
a freelancer, many people ask me, yeah, but as a freelancer
you cannot really have a lot of influence or impact or cuz you
go short time and and you're in and out and feels like you know
you do it for financials you don't really care, not at all.
No, not at all. Why would you do it otherwise?
Not at all, yeah, but I do the same thing as it's like okay.
I have six months in this place or seven months in this place.
What is it that I can do within the context of the challenge
that's been given to me? What I need to do here and what
would I like to leave behind when I look at the situation?
Okay And then I put myself to do that during those six months.
And I keep constantly looking at the endpoint, which is the date
that I'm going to leave. And it's like what are some of
the fundamentals that that I need to leave behind in this
time to really, yeah, to really help this company and to really,
really be of of good service to them and to the team and to the
people that are that are here. And then I walk backwards and
then that's why my days are completely like flying by.
This is like I don't have enough.
I don't have enough time to to do what I what I want to do.
And not that I don't I cannot create the impact.
It's just that there's so much bubbling all the time in my mind
as to how to do that for them to.
Contribute. Yeah, Yeah.
So the construction, it doesn't matter.
Contract, freelance, full time, part time, it doesn't matter.
Like, what do you care about? Yeah.
What do you leave? What do you want to leave
behind? And can we sometimes quantify a
little bit some of those terms? Yeah, like I want to have an
effect or I want to have an impact.
Okay, what exactly? Yeah, I mean, for me it feels
like the way you describe it and I don't know how to get this.
I think I have it, but I don't know how to how to convey this.
Some people have this intrinsic motivation that whatever they
do, they want to do it better, right?
More effective, more efficient, more optimized, basically
elevate it. And I had that one I had was 16
and I was working at like a fish and chips in fallendom because I
was like, OK, if we do this and this and this, it's going to be
more efficient, I'm going to have more time to do other
stuff. Basically in my head I was
optimizing. My little brother has it.
He worked out as a cashier. He was like stocking shelves and
stuff and he was like, if we do it like so and so.
It's going to be better. We can do more based on that.
Some people have that they want to optimize.
They want to do better. And some people just want to
come in, do the thing and then go out.
Sure. I don't know how you can get
from one end to the other. And then even if so, if you
really want to do your best, right?
If we're talking about kind of your early experience when you
had this article in front of you and it wasn't the tone of voice
that you stand behind, right? Yeah.
You could have said, okay, this is not the tone of voice.
I stand behind and then let it slide.
But you're not a person that's afraid for a confrontation.
So you probably got into that conversation and maybe you
didn't think it was going to be a confrontation.
But at the end, probably, I'm sure it was a discussion, right?
People that don't like discussions, they're never going
to take that step and do that. Even though they might value
something when things are not in line, they would never take that
extra step and do so. Yeah.
Do you feel like people should be more inclined to have those
conversations? Is it because they think they
can't really change their sphere of influence that much or what
do you think it is? It really depends on on how open
are you to to have that. Yeah conversation and indeed
what is your your breath, what's what's the.
And also the time span you're going to give yourself.
Like like I knew that later on when I when I really wanted to
change, for example the a brand which was highly commercial into
being a lot more purposeful. I knew that it was going to be
blood, sweat and tears for years.
I knew that we were a highly commercially driven company,
very much sales driven push, which was going to take like a
complete different mentality to go to where I wanted to bring it
to. And I knew that I wasn't going
to do it in one day. But then it really depends on
again on like how much do you really care about.
So for me, I placed myself and I said okay, listen, I'm in my
work environment. I have another 40 years to work
in my career. This matters to me.
So I'm just going to be here for as long as I need to be.
Until I get it done. Until I get this thing done,
yeah. Because otherwise what?
What? What is the point of doing
anything when I can have them maybe the capacity to influence
such a big brand. And I and I literally said that
to my team. I from the very beginning, I
said I don't know how long this is going to take.
Yeah, it's going to take long this.
Is the goal though? Yeah, but this is indeed the
goal. And I painted the picture and
the picture was beautiful and. And it was exciting and it was
motivational and it was. Yeah.
And then we walked back and then we realized that we still needed
to do loads of things that maybe we didn't really enjoy that
much. Or like Okay.
And this is also where I often tell people, it's like, if you
look at the bigger picture, there will be things that you
don't really enjoy, you don't really want to do.
Not everything is going to be fun.
Not everything is going to be enjoyable.
Not everything is going to be an intellectually rich challenge,
but is that in the context of that bigger picture, then do
that in order to achieve what you want to achieve.
So we knew that we were still going to have a very, you know,
concentrated focus on sales until would slowly would be able
to move to to another space. So I wasn't naive to try to
convince people by talking to go somewhere because it was just
not going to work. I said it's this is going to be
massaging, this is going to be politics, this is going to be a
lot of work and it's going to take a lot of time.
But I have the patience, right? Like for me time is is
irrelevant. The point is what do I want to
achieve? And I was again, I was on a
mission to change something that really mattered to me.
So I'm like for as long as it takes, that's it.
For as long as it takes. Because what is the rush to go
anywhere to do what that it might not be just as important
or as impactful for me as this could potentially be.
And for this entire team of people.
My team was there pretty much the entire five years that I
ended up having this role. We were the same team.
It's like we went for it. Yeah.
And and we still we we talk to each other and we say all those
were the days. Like it was amazing, right?
But it was hard. It was really, really hard.
Like, like don't don't think that making a big change can go
fast. But do you have the patience and
do you have the the willingness to go through the difficulties
of every day and come back next day and keep going?
Yeah. I feel like your belief needs to
be very strong as well because. Sometimes I'm like, man, this is
not possible either within the context this organization with
these people like, it's just it's not possible.
And especially when you have a longterm plan and a vision that
is strong, you need to have belief that it is still
possible. Yes and and I have to say it's
one of the skills that really helps and and I was blessed with
it, is is, is to be good with politics.
It is. I saw it as a game.
Okay. Yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah, I saw it as a game. It's chess.
It's plain chess or Aikido. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's,
it's, I didn't see it as that much of a negative thing.
Of course it's not pleasant to be dealing with all of these
things and people's fears at the end.
It's all yeah fear based and and but I always took it as like
okay let's see if I can if I can manage this one.
Yeah let's see if I can turn around this person or let's see
if I we can get it to another space.
Again hidden agenda for me I was very clear in my mind what I was
trying to do with this person or where I was trying to get them
to go or try to switch their their mentality and and and and
I enjoyed it. So I I didn't see politics as
dirty thing in a sense but it it's just psychology and it's
just people. So it's like how are you going
to deal with this person? Because there is a reason why
this person is acting this way that there is a reason behind
their anger or their frustration or their fear or whatever it is
that is making your life hell. Yeah.
So let's figure out where this person is coming from and and
and what is the pressure they're getting from above or from the
side or don't look just at yourself.
Look at this person and try to try to figure out what is going
on with them, because nobody wakes up in the morning to to be
difficult. Exactly.
Yeah. I feel like it's it is really
innate in you, kind of this curiosity and perspective.
As I hear a lot of people say, it is what it is.
It's one of my phrases that I hate the most.
It is what it is. Yeah.
No. Just say I'm like, yeah, but
that means you can't. You can't influence it.
You can't change it. You've accepted that there's no
change. It's not true.
I feel like with you you're like, no, there must, there must
be something. There is always a way.
Yeah, there is always a way. If there is a will, there's a
way. And and it is all about people.
Yeah, but okay, if we're willing to give up very easily, if it
doesn't go your way from the start, yeah, then then.
But if if you understand that, I always say it like that.
I said nobody wakes up in the morning to be to make your life
hell. Yeah, that's not.
It's not a mission. It's not a mission from someone
getting up in the morning and saying, hey, let's see if I can
make Patrick's life hell today. But people take it that way.
Yeah, yeah, feels like that sometimes.
Feels like an attack or feels personal and and and I slowly of
course I'm also human it came also with age learning but I
learned to less and less obviously start to make it about
me and taking a personal not let it not let it come to my side of
the court. Yeah, to be able to draw the
line objectively and and say this person is suffering, this
person has an issue. Yeah, there's something wrong.
Something is going on, and it's not because of me.
It might be because of their boss.
It might be because of pressure. It might be because of their
family. Maybe they had a bad day.
Maybe their wife is in the hospital.
Who knows? Something is going on with this
person. That doesn't mean it's my
problem. Yeah, because now you're being
an idiot and it's not my problem.
Take yourself out of it. Yeah, but.
But do we have the capacity and the empathy and and the
willingness to like take a moment and and really have a
series of questions and an interest in what is going on
with this person rather than the clash and the conflict?
And we both go away and we escalate.
And like that's one of the things I really, really don't
like at all. Is escalation going to your
bosses or going up and up and up and up?
No, no, no, we're going to solve it and we're going to sort it
out ourselves. But but it it takes a lot of
again. Takes more patience and then
escalate. Exactly.
Yeah it's much easier to go and make a problem out of it or make
a big fuss out of it or go into conflict then like OK, but wait
a minute but what is going on like and there are many ways to
have those conversations and and I've also been trained in like
giving feedback or having difficult conversations and you
can learn also a lot of it and then put it into practice and
and become much better at it. But but I I saw politics not as
a bad thing, but as a people start acting in a certain way,
but they're not against me. No, it's not willingly.
No, no. There is another reason behind.
But do we want to even go there? Yeah.
And I wanted to go there because.
A lot of people want to. No, no, no.
But I was like, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to.
I'm not going to let this happen.
No, no, we're going to, we're going to have this conversation.
I'm going to ask you again and again and again until you
finally tell me what what is going on.
More importantly when I have that information and it could
be. So imagine somebody wants me to
do something and I don't want to do it in the way that they're
telling me to do it because they're just giving orders and
and I also have a little bit of difficulty.
Yeah. With just.
Yes, Sir. It's like why based on what
okay. So somebody comes to me and
maybe because I'm a service department, for example, or so
perceived, and I'm like, yeah, but this request really doesn't
make any sense. It's a waste of money.
It's a waste of effort. It's a waste of resources.
It's like I'm not going to go to my agency and ask them to do
this also blindly, without any creativity, just because you've
said I want this and I want it red and I want it with these
letters. It's like okay.
Then you have to have the the they are the willingness and the
patience to go through those questions.
And then what turns out at the end, for example, is that their
boss is pressuring them okay and then they're pressuring me.
So it just goes down. Yeah.
So what I what I do is instead of that, then I team up with
this person because I said okay. But what is the pressure?
What what? What does he want?
Is he further being pressure more even more from high above?
Do you know that? Like where is that pressure
coming from for him or her? What can we do in that okay?
So is he looking for this or is he looking for an answer?
Is he looking for a solution about this or would he be happy
if this other person would get off his back because of this?
Like help me understand what what really the core of the
issue is. The issue is not that you want
this in red with these words. That's not it.
Something is going on.
Your your boss is pressuring you also for some reason.
So what is that reason? So that things change from us
being in conflict, me fighting with this person.
I'm not going to give you what you want because I think it's
nonsense what you're asking me. Yeah, but I'm asking you, but
I'm asking you to do it now, but I'm not going to do it.
And then our bosses need to intervene.
And then there's escalation and there's conflict between the two
of us. The exact same situation can be
completely turned around to then become allies and become a team
to do something to solve the issue for their boss.
Suddenly I'm the good person. I'm the good caller.
You're in the corner, yeah, I'm in their corner.
And we are going to solve this together because their boss is
pressuring them for a reason and they don't want to be pressured,
but they haven't done that exercise with their boss.
But I'm going to do it with you. And then I feel sorry that
you're feeling pressured, but that's not really my problem.
But I'm going to help you. Yeah.
And now we're becoming friends. Yeah.
And now I'm going to give you a good solution that you can give
to your boss that is based on addressing the challenge and not
following orders exactly. And the solution might be
different than what you came to me with.
But you have to give me the room now to address the issue.
Don't tell me what to do. Tell me what the challenge is
and then I will give you an answer.
And the answer is probably better than what you came up
with. I will make you see that in a
nice way that is not going to feel offending to you.
We're going to go to your boss. Your boss is going to be happy
and you're going to be happy and we're going to be happy
colleagues. And that's how I got my way
around to do a ton of stuff with sympathy and with agreement with
with people in the company because there was a good
solution. There was a there was a
resolution and and I cut that off and the people thought, it's
easy working with you. It's not that it's easy working
with me. I am making an effort.
Of course it's easy to work with me because I'm making an effort,
yeah, to not let things escalate.
More importantly, to go blindly. For solving real problems
following orders, I had that with my very very direct boss at
the beginning. It took him time to also work
with me in the sense that he was used to giving orders and.
People would execute, but then here I came.
Along they're like, huh? And then I would tell him, okay,
I'm more more than happy to do that, but could you give me a
little bit of context as to where is this coming from?
You're asking me this for a reason.
You have an intention with what you're asking me to do.
It's not clear what what is that intention.
What do you want to achieve with with this?
Because I can say yes Sir, go back and give you exactly what
you're asking me to do. Or I can just say, could you
give me a little bit of like, where is it coming from?
What what? What is going on in your mind?
What's you're asking me this. You've been thinking about this
like you don't come up this morning and just say let's keep
her busy, right? Like there is something that you
want to achieve with this thing you're asking me.
So first it would be like, yeah, I don't have time for that, but
I would just stay there, very friendly, very calmly.
But you do have an intention. Help me understand what you want
to get with this because you're and and I would mirror him as
well like I can see that you are annoyed or I can see that
there's urgency in in this so something is going on or or or
something has made you ask me for this and because I was so a
pain in the ass in the sense of like I'm not moving from this
chair until yeah and and I'm not a big getting angry or not I'm
just very calmly like. But I'm and I'm truly
interested. Yeah, in in in you.
Because I I need to understand why I do what I do.
Of course. Otherwise that's a big thing for
me as well. It's huge.
Is like, what do I do? Leave the room with like, yes,
Sir, the orders deliver. I can't do that.
I need to understand why I do what I do.
And I want to be intellectually challenged, right.
So more importantly, what he was asking me to do, I thought it
was nonsense. Yeah.
Yeah, that's a big driver.
How do you tell that? Yeah.
To your to your boss. Like, I'm sorry, I don't want to
do that. Like, no.
Well, now you going to do it because I tell you so Okay, Go
and do it. Yeah.
So I didn't want to find myself in those situations.
So okay. So then I would ask him and
again and again and again he finally would tell me what the
reason was. Okay.
There had been something internal and blah, blah, blah.
And now our competition is coming close to us on this,
which it shouldn't have happened and the okay.
So you need an answer and you need quick action to try to
counterbalance something. Do I understand that correctly?
Yes, Okay said. Give me 24 hours.
Yeah, and let me think about this and I'm going to come back
with something. Okay.
Turns out sometimes I would come up with a better solution.
Of course, because you understand the problem.
I understand the challenge and I give it thought.
And I put some people to think about it.
And then we come up with a solution that is more effective,
more costeffective as well. We're going to spend less money.
We're going to have better reach.
We're going to like, whatever. And it was not to say mine is
better, but just to say, and I will tell him this, I can do A,
which you asked me to do. I've been thinking about it.
Here's B. This is what we can achieve with
B, you tell me. And B was of course, better than
A. Yeah.
And he would see that. And he would say like okay.
Yeah, going to be OK. I would do be hopefully and
luckily turn out to be successful.
Great. Next time same thing.
He would come and then I to the point that we worked together
for a few years and then we would laugh about it and then he
would come. He would call me to his office
and but first thing he would say, let me give you some
context. Yeah, but laughing, right?
He. Has the trust now?
Yeah. And because he knew that he
couldn't, you know, so. So it became really, really
funny. And then and then, you know, we
would truly laugh about it. Let's take 5 minutes for
context, you know, like he knew that he couldn't just tell me,
OK, just do that but and and then and then we would solve
challenges. So I I've always told everyone,
because I work in branding and marketing and that happens very
often because people have a very particular opinion about
branding and communications. Yeah, everybody thinks they know
what to do, right? So, and they come already with
the solution. Give me a poster, give me and
print ad, give me a social media post.
This is what I need. And I'm like, no, don't tell me
what you need. Don't tell me what to do, don't
tell me what the touch points are.
Tell me what the challenge is and then I will give you the
solution to that challenge from my communications and marketing
perspective. So but this it takes a lot of
massaging and standing and not barging and asking the questions
and but if you do realize that by doing that time and time
again, it didn't take my boss 15 times to have this conversation.
It took us three maybe for him to understand that he needed to
let me know what the issue at hand was rather than marching
orders wasn't going to work. So after 3 * 4 * 5 times, yeah,
then we we got to learn how to work with one another and the
same one for my direct colleagues.
I treated that the same way. I said.
But where is the issue coming from?
Or what makes you react this way?
Or or I can see that you're annoyed or I can see that you're
frustrated or that you want something different and I can
see that meaning you're out of line.
Like like you have a problem. It's not my problem.
I'm here calmly and you are coming in like that.
What is going on with you, not with me.
Yeah. And you do that in a nice way
and in a friendly way and in a in a in a collaborative way and
and then you you get your way around.
And I learned and and I enjoyed it to.
Navigate that, Yes, yeah. Because it was.
It was, it was kind of like a game to me in the sense of like,
can I make this happen? Like can I turn that around?
Can I use my personal skills and my emotional skills to to
address what is going on with someone?
And that if and that eventually evolved over time to realizing
that that I could read through people.
I could see people, and that's what then started developing
into mentoring and coaching and yeah, I had that within me.
Like to see what's going on with you.
Yeah, yeah. Something is not quite right.
And I could see through that. And that also developed into
being part of my career eventually.
Yeah. Yeah, me too.
For me, the figuring out the why has always been a big thing from
a software development perspective, but exactly the
same thing you laid out. Tell me what the problem is with
the challenges, with the context.
And then we can come up with a better solution that you can
give me. I didn't know that shines
through or or holds true in a lot of aspects, but it makes
total sense. Yes, right.
It doesn't matter what you're building, what you're doing.
Basically, when you understand the context, understand the
challenge or the problems or even the boundaries that are
there, right, you can come up with a solution.
And it doesn't matter what the solution is at the end of the
day, or which solution we take. No, it matters that we have to
get a shared understanding and we pick the solution we think is
right exactly most important. And that that makes that that
that changes everything from from conflict to being able to
work together in a good way. Because the moment you you
instead of saying, well I don't want to do that or that doesn't
make any sense or I don't have time for that or I'm really
sorry, but that doesn't fit my blah blah blah blah.
All the conflicts that are happening from clashing from.
I don't want to do what you're asking me and don't get me
wrong, I 70% of the times I didn't want to do what people
were asking me. But but it is about truly caring
about trying to understand this person and when you, it's
disarming also to the person when you stop and you don't go
into the conflict, into the into the.
I'm not going to do that for you.
But you go into the what would you like to achieve with this?
Like I'm really interested in you.
I'm really interested in knowing what what do you want?
Because I am going to give you what you want.
So I'm not saying I'm not. I'm not going to give it to you.
I'm going to give it to you. But then suddenly people feel
like, oh, I'm being heard, then I'm being listened to and and
she actually. Because they are, Yeah.
Yeah. Because she cares about what I
have to say. Well, I yes, I do.
And also because I'm not going to go with your solution.
Yeah, but I I'm not going to tell you that from the start
because we're going to conflict and we're going to crash and
we're going to clash and we're going to escalate and.
Yeah, it's not productive, not at all.
So it's like, but I already know that.
I'm not going to do what you're asking me, but I am going to
also take you to a space where, first of all, I'm going to
gather more information to understand the issue.
Second, I'm going to make you feel heard and understood.
And that's the part of the of the playing, the game of the
politics, which can be a little bit manipulative sometimes, but
never in a bad way, because it was always meant to for the
improvement of things. But it's like, do you also
really care about. Yeah, yeah, the person you have
in front of you. That makes you good at it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see now that you're good
at it. Yeah, because it's like, it's
very disarming for people. Before, I used to like, it's
either a yes or a no. Either you do what I'm telling
you or you're telling me no and then we get in a fight.
Yeah. And it's not.
Like that? No, no, it's gonna take me maybe
three more steps. But patience, patience.
It's everything really, really, really like it's the most
important thing that people don't have.
No, no time. Somehow there's no time for no
one but for what? But like what are you trying to
achieve? If you want to change something
or if you want to again, do you, how do you want your days to be
at work? Do you want your days to be
revolving around difficulty and conflict?
Because that's what many people do, is like to the barricades
every day. It's like, I don't want to be
like that. I don't want to spend my days
like that. And also, I don't have the
fantasy that we're all one big happy family.
Yeah, that's also not the case because I think companies,
corporations are one of the biggest.
Social experiments ever. Like you put 20, thirty, 5200
people together that are completely different from one
another and it's like, all right, you guys go, go figure it
out. Yeah, it's like it's it's
insane. So of course that's going to be
conflicting, clashing and like we don't understand each other
the same way. We're completely different in
the way that you operate and I operate and everything.
So I never had the fantasy that in any work environment is
always going to be, can be respectful, can be fun, can be
nice. But at the end of the day people
are coming with their own selves to work which are we are all
full of flaws and and issues and and we bring that to the
workspace of course same as on the personal life, we bring it
to work. So and and off we go.
Yeah. And then you have to work with
one another, which are people that you haven't even chosen for
yourself. So it is very hard to be in a
company because it's like this, this huge.
Yeah, I mean really there there should be like cameras in to to
analyze how how we operate in there.
And it's so insular and it's and it's so barely looking and it is
like there's nothing else in the world.
It's like the world revolves around this company and it's
like, so not true at all, but that's the feeling.
And then and then That's happening every day, 8 hours a
day. So every organization also and
changes in COVID and this and that and it's like constant and
but I never had the fantasy that that that my intention was to
create this beautiful harmony that we're all going to meditate
and no no that's also not reality but but but within that
context you can make your life much easier and enjoyable and
bring it to your own place and drive your own agenda if you are
very conscious of what you're doing every day and.
What you want to do, Yeah. And that's also another one.
Many people are not conscious. It's just automatic pilot,
right. Even if you're at home working
remote or or in the office, we open the laptop and close the
laptop. What, what was the intention
that day? Like what is driving you?
Yeah. To be here and and and and to do
and to do what you do. And if you have that agenda of
yours smaller or bigger in terms of what you want to change,
address, impact, you name it, then it doesn't really matter.
You know where you're going And also helps you to filter your
interactions and decision making on that basis.
Because suddenly things are not that important anymore to have
an issue or to have a clash. If you have the patience and you
know that what you want to achieve is going to take you
maybe three years and you have an issue with someone today,
it's not that it's not important, but.
It grounds you and gives you perspective.
Because tomorrow is another day and it's fine.
Then you come back but address the issue and and and and try to
work with this person so that and for me was you know like
that like I also tell it to to to my clients.
It's like it's never and you know, the walk guacamole that,
yeah, walk a mole, you know that thing on the fair, it's it's
that thing. That's hilarious.
Yeah. It's like it's oh, another one.
Boom, OK, we're going to have the conversation.
We're. I'm going to have to ask you the
questions and we're going to have to go through that.
And then my boss is popping up again with a marching order,
Another one down, Here we go. Yeah, here we go.
And it's every day. And it's like, OK, what?
I have another one to put down. Yeah.
And not in a bad way, but like really I'm going to address it
And and I'm not going to say that I thoroughly enjoyed it,
but but yeah, it's fun if you if you see it as I am on my path to
something and I'm going to come across people that they're not
going to agree with me or they're not going to operate in
the way that I do or my bosses are going to ask me for things.
And hey, and at the end, of course, I couldn't always
achieve everything I I wanted. I mean at the end it's their
prerogative on a number of things and it's their decision.
But again, that also brings you perspective.
Like Okay today didn't go my way.
Maybe that's Okay. I come back tomorrow and I keep
going. Yeah.
So I always have that. And therefore time becomes a
relevant conflict is more doable.
Yeah, you can manage it. It's bearable.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
To the point of almost enjoyable from the perspective of like
okay, but if I can bring somebody along and move the
needle, yeah, I moved the needle And this colleague now sees me
as an ally and as a as a good person to work with instead of
an enemy and and and understanding that that really
human nature by definition is, is we are good people.
At the end of the day, we are, yeah.
It's at the core of it is is good intentions, it's love.
It's we are made of like good stuff.
Yeah. If somebody is coming in and
being very difficult, something is going on.
Yeah, something must be wrong then, yeah.
And at the end and and don't let that come to your side of the
court and ruin your day. Of course it's difficult because
it's not easy not to take personal.
And this has taken me many years to to be able to address that
and not make it to me. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
But it's. Yeah.
And if you do that, then OK. And then when you're ready then,
and you do what you want it to do, then OK, then.
Time to move. Yeah.
It's I love your perspective and kind of your awareness of a goal
makes time and the feeling of now way more irrelevant, and
that allows you to be grounded in those conversations.
And still steer people have the patience and collaborate.
I always said this is kind of one of my last thoughts cuz I
really have to round it off now. We're running a really long
time. But I always said escalations
are not a bad thing because for me, especially already on, I got
things done because of them. Also me, I didn't have the
patience. I wanted to go faster.
I thought we could go faster. So if I needed to escalate to
get something done, I'd be fine. Yeah, I'd be like this is how we
do it. Yes, that's normal.
But I do agree that. The right way would be to have
the patience to talk it out, yes.
It doesn't have to be an escalation.
Yeah, I never liked escalating, but I would do it.
Basically, I wasn't afraid of doing it.
Yes, because if I felt something was right.
I wasn't gonna sit down and take it.
No, I was gonna escalate and make sure that what I thought
was right was at least gonna be discussed.
Yeah, because otherwise it would never be a discussion.
Yeah. And I I had as a manager was
when I was a leader and I would get people to escalate to me or
they would come to my desk and on our one on ones they would
just throw up like you know issues about this colleague and
that other colleague and whatever and this person from
the other department and and they would in a way we're asking
me to solve it for for themselves with their own
managers or with their own bosses.
I always had the same thing. I said when you escalate you
also don't realize that now you I have to do the work for you
and I also have my bosses above me that I need to deal with and
I have you guys as my team and now you are because I'm your
manager. When you come and come into a
problem then the easier thing is to escalate and then put it on
my plate. And now I need to solve it with
my peer, with the boss of this other person.
I would always stop it and I would not act upon it
necessarily but rather have the conversation with this person
1st and said what has happened in a sense without saying it
literally but and then I would guide them and help them and
mentor them and everything to like what is it that you have
not managed at your level to solve this issue.
I also have them at my level every single day, three times
everyone does. And I'm not escalating 1 to my
bosses. So I want you to not escalate to
me because I want you to solve it and address the issue and it
means you're not capable of having a conversation and
addressing the problem with your colleague.
And then you get frustrated. And then you escalated to me and
now you said you solve it now for me, like no, no.
So but I wouldn't just say no to that.
Of course, if it had merit and if it was logical and of course,
but I would rather, you know, have the conversation to mentor
this person as to how to have the conversation with this
colleague, to not to not let it come, Yeah, to that situation.
And then I would say okay, but sometimes even like, but did did
you actually grab a coffee with this person and have a
conversation? No, we've just been on e-mail
and now I'm done with it, right? And now it escalates.
It's like maybe, you know, maybe you should take the time to grab
a coffee. I'm not going to talk to their
boss as yet, so please have that conversation.
Figure out what the actual issue is and why did you guys aren't.
Why are you not able? This is also part of your
development. You need to figure out that you
need to solve your own issues. Yeah so so that's what.
And therefore I am not keen on escalating either because it
looks for myself to me as I have not been able to address the
issue and now I need to go to my boss only.
Yeah, maybe we will go into that, but.
I can tell you after the show, when I ask you later, I think
you're gonna laugh about it. What I what I what I always said
and what I what I do and what I still do is.
And this is one of the tips that has helped me.
The best in my career ever is only come with good news only to
your bosses only talk about a milestone.
You have done something. You have achieved a great e-mail
from a colleague that was very happy with your work.
Share it. People that couldn't get along
with each other. You have intervened and now you
know there's great collaboration, whatever,
whatever. And you talk about that only
good news, never an issue, unless it was really, really,
really to the point that I had given it my all and couldn't
solve it anymore. Or for their information about
something very specific that they needed to be aware of, but
never with complaints, bad news or escalations.
Solutions. Anything that comes to any of my
bosses in their inbox will always be pleasant to read.
Always something good that happened.
Yeah, yeah. We are improving this thing.
We have led the legacy behind. We have whatever the address the
next milestone. We have started collaboration
with HR and corporate communications and now we are
working together on this and that and look at the 1st
results. They're awesome.
Only that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, but.
What if you needed them to, let's say, change a process or
something like that based on feedback?
No, that's that's OK. Like like addressing something
that is not working? Yes, but what I what?
But what I always do as well. I might tell my bosses that
something is not working or that I would like to see something
different. But if I say that then I coming
already with the potential solution.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, No, never like throw
things on the table for them to solve.
Or now it's your problem, or now you need to deal with it and now
you need to do the investigation.
And now I need to think of the solution whilst I also have my
full on job already and I need to do yours as well.
So so I'm always like try to solve it, come up always with
good news, let your emails be always a pleasant thing to read
and never give problems and when there are issues, because of
course there are always always we need to.
I mean my list are always endless of things to solve and
address and things that are not working and could be improved.
But I always come with, I have looked at it, but this is the
potential solution or I've looked at it.
We're stuck. Yeah.
And I would need your help for this particular, this specific
thing on this day with this person.
Yeah. Like I am having something now
where in the project that I'm working where some decision is
going to the board of directors and and I am prepping my my
board member to to let him know that this is coming on the
agenda on the day and that I really need him to support that
for that to go through okay because if if that doesn't
happen then we're pretty screwed on something okay but that's
okay. But I am telling him hey we've
already investigated everything. We are ready to go.
We have it all has passed security has passed all these
things legal. So I've done all my job now.
I do need you. Yeah.
But. But that's very particular
because he's a board member and those decisions are happening on
the board meeting. Yeah.
So, but yeah, of course things are happening very often.
But people have a very easy tendency to just blur everything
out. Yeah, Complaining or waiting for
the one-on-one to throw it all out.
And I'm like, do you really realize what that does to your
manager, which is already fully busy?
Yeah, yeah. Just piles on.
Everyone piles on. Can somebody give me some
breather? Yeah.
And I'm that person solution. Yeah, I'm the solution driven
person. The good news person that this
has been taken care of and I would only come to you.
And that also makes it that you get a lot more support at that
moment. People love working with you.
Yeah. And also because if I really
tell you that I'm stuck or that I need your help, it's serious
because I'm not coming with that every day.
I'm only coming every so often and.
And not. Yeah, and then they take it very
seriously And because they know that if if not, I wouldn't ask,
Yeah. So I always tell people very
often like could you please also be mindful of how much is going
on already with your manager and that blurring all your issues
out waiting for that one meeting in the week.
Yeah, it's maybe not the best. It's not helpful for either
side, I feel like, Right, Because you're not going to feel
empowered to make any change. Your manager's going to have
more work and you're going to feel like they're already
fighting for you. It's like, yeah, because you
also need to fight for yourself. Yeah.
And once you do that, I think your manager is going to love
working with you more. Other people are also going to
love working with you. Yes, because you either bring
solutions or you bring good news.
And I have that, I have that very often that people coming in
with a problem. But then I would say and and
what would you suggest? Yeah, right to solve.
That it's not that hard of a question, yeah.
What would you suggest as a solution?
Oh, I don't know, They didn't think of that.
It's like, no, no, okay, it's okay to bring the problem, but
starts with that. But I want you to think already
of the solution and if the solution is something that I can
help you with, I will. Of course.
I will intervene, of course. But but not just what the
problem is. No.
Yeah, there's a problem with this, With this, With this.
With this. With this.
OK, Meanings done. OK.
Bye. Yeah.
Like, no. Yeah, there's a problem.
Problems are going to happen every day.
But what do you suggest? Yeah, to solve it, yeah.
It's a really good mantra. Yeah.
If this was a lot of fun, I must say, Oh my gosh, very long.
It was quite long, but also people don't know this.
We've been talking for an hour even before that.
Thank you so much for waiting for us.
Yes, I had some issues there, No problem.
Was this conversation kind of what you?
To expect to going into it, yes, yes, yes.
Well, we also had a that. Makes sense.
A call before, also before, even today and this afternoon.
Yeah. But you're a great host and
great questions. So yeah, yeah.
No. And I think it's lovely that
you're doing this addressing what goes beyond, you know, your
actual literal work every day. Yeah.
So these questions are so important.
Thank you. Yeah.
I love doing it. So, yeah, I'm going to do it for
as long as I'm going to do it for as long as I can.
Yes. Yes.
But that's also like, what do you care, right.
Like you do care about these questions.
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm so curious, and I mean it's basically the format that is
most easy to do. It's like.
The time amount, right. But I could go for hours.
Yeah, that's guy. Yeah, yeah, me too.
Like, I don't even know what time it is.
I like, yeah, yes. Yeah.
But I will round it over here. Yes, sorry about that.
But thank you now. Thank you for having me.
Yeah. Thanks.
So much for coming on. I'm going to put all a for
socials in the description below.
Check her out, let her know you came from our show.
And with that being said, thank you for listening.
We'll see you on the next one.