Hi everyone, My name is Patrick Akil and joining me today is Ray
Baldman, Head of Innovation over alumio and an amazing human
being. Very warm as a person to be
honest, and he has an amazing track record of over 25 years in
tech. We get into the details of how
he grew A-Team to over 75 people globally, leadership, safety,
relationship and trust. We get into all of that and
more. So enjoy the responsibility in
the weight of 75 people. That's a lot.
That was a lot true. I mean, I had people reporting
into me directly, but in general, I still was hiring a
manager actually in India, but still everybody was reporting
directly to me. So I had one on ones with them
on a regular basis. And besides two different time
zones having my old, my new team actually in EMEA, my old team in
the US, so we had double the meetings.
So that that was ludicrous. OK.
How was it leading up to actually the the breaking point
where you're like, I just I don't have.
Energy. Well, my body actually was
telling me, but I wasn't listening, to be honest, that I
had back issues and I was taking medications for that.
But at the end, well, I had trouble walking at some point
and I was going to chiropractors and physios and all those kind
of things. But at some point the body told
me it's like, well, you need to rest, You need to really stop
this. And I was just having, I would
say personally now looking back, so much responsibility back to
my team. I just wanted to make sure that
they were in a good place. And I didn't consider thinking
about myself. So yeah, that was a pity.
It, it seems like a a pitfall that is also kind of rampant
within this industry because we look for people that are very
passionate, that hold like a high sense of accountability and
responsibility. Yeah.
And especially for other people in other processes, right.
And if you're super passionate, that just goes hand in hand.
That's what you look for. True, true.
And, and to be honest, I mean, we had, I mean, I was doing
customer engineering and we had so many customers that would
having, you know, a lot of trouble.
And some of them actually had my personal phone number.
Oh yeah. Not saying that was a good
thing. Well, I mean, I felt responsible
to them as well because, you know, we grew together on on on
to what point, you know, they were successful.
I mean, I got successful, they were successful.
And sometimes they were having a burden.
And it's like, you know, OK, what what's going on there?
And at some points, like, OK, you know, I have a team, please,
you know, let them handle things.
But at some point, if there's an escalation running, I mean, they
just, you know, they knew where to find me.
And from their perspective on, I would say, yeah, you know,
getting in there still feeling too much responsibility at some
point and, and feeling not connected anymore to the product
where you can actually solve the issue.
Because I knew well, 95% on what's going on, what the issue
like. And it's like, OK, let's get
this fixed. But unfortunately, although my
team was was doing an awesome job and we were not able to fix
it since since the product team was not up to speed or having,
well, different priorities. And then that makes sense.
I mean that that's totally real. But you know, you can imagine
you've you get exhausted at some point if if you want to fix it
and you're not able to fix it and still feel responsible.
Yeah, I think that's very challenging.
Yeah. You told me before the show you
are also responsible for this team that was up and running and
was running on a global scale. Yeah, that was actually started
out small and reached that point with 75 people at some.
Point, yeah. How, how did you manage that in
the 1st place? Like global boundaries are
definitely boundaries that are there.
Different time zones are always a thing which can be
challenging. Yeah.
How do you navigate that in the first place?
Well, I mean the day starts early and I would say, you know,
the meetings, I would say back in the day they started on, on
some projects. I think China was one of the
first where we started having calls and, and these were
actually not personally my team, but they reported in through a
vendor. And I would say culture wise,
there were relax because they always say yes to everything,
which is not a good thing because you really need to look
out and see how, how what they mean and if they still deliver
what, what's expected. And if you go into the time zone
on, on India, I mean, I love these guys.
I mean, they were so warm and so hardworking and true.
Sometimes you need to be careful with them because they always
say yes as well, but they still do do the work deliver.
But I don't want to exhaust them because some of them actually
started working 2 shifts, you know the early shifts and then
going into the US shift. So really need to be careful
there. That's why did they switch
managers? I was looking for a new one
actually went in to Bangalore, to Mumbai, doing some interviews
personally and and at the end, unfortunately there was no
budget left so they still started reporting back to me
again. So that wasn't a good thing for
me personally. And then going into Europe and
Americas and I guess every culture has their own pros and
cons. The one that I really personally
like, I'm not saying that the other ones are dislikes, but the
Polish ones, man, those guys are strict to the point and they'll
work really hard and, and they deliver.
But again, with all respect to everybody, everybody has their
own style. But this one really stood out
for for whatever sense. But it was fine working with so
many different nationalities, cultures, styles.
I would say the diversity within was, was the thing that made me
happy because you know, hearing these personal stories, people
getting young borns and, and, and seeing how they grow within
their personal career and, and have challenges definitely
through COVID, you know, working from home, hearing the baby cry,
you know, in the other room, but still want to focus and deliver.
So sometimes it can be challenging, but I would say
establishing the bond with them up until now.
I mean, some of the guys, we became good friends and actually
I think a couple of weeks ago I was in Dubai and met with one of
my old architects. And still, I mean, the
connection from back in the day, it, it's still there.
So you pick up where you left. And I think that that's that's
remarkable to establish that relationship and that trust.
Yeah, it says a lot. And I think it says a lot
specifically about you because from what I've seen, when teams
are diverse, like the outcome can be greater, but it's only
under good management and it does require extra time and
effort, right? If everyone is like me, then
probably we're immediately coming to the same conclusions
and we can start faster and we we can execute faster.
But if it's diverse, you have to accommodate for people's
different thought patterns and make sure to include them
specifically, which might require more time.
True. Well, maybe a note on that.
You you started mentioning a word, you know, managing them.
I never saw that I was managing them.
Yeah, And actually this morning I had a call with an old
colleague of mine and and we we actually, you know, have done
these projects together back through the COVID days and
establishing the team. But the thing that really stood
out, and I sometimes refer back to my team maybe more as a coach
and that I asked him, it's like, you know, if we want to be
successful and, you know, get like a Champions League team up
and running, we are doing this together.
I mean, nobody stands out and and kicks the goal through
somebody at at some point, you know, makes a good success.
But at some point, looking back at the Champions League, and I
sometimes even use the picture of the Champions League within
my presentations, like we are doing this together, everybody's
equal, but we have one goal in mind.
And and that's, you know, being successful with the customer
and, and doing this together and nobody leaves, nobody stops.
Again, it's a family. So I saw myself maybe more as a
coach or trainer than than being that manager.
I don't like the term actually to be manager.
Yeah, I think, I think that's super powerful, right?
Because you want to, if you call yourself a manager, if you let's
say manage, manage, then there's already a hierarchy there.
Yeah. So how can people actually build
that relationship with you when there is that boundary innately?
Oh, 100%. And The funny thing is there's
this comic, I guess, you know, if you find an Internet, what's
the difference between a leader and a boss?
And and you know, a leader is the one leading the team And and
I think that's what the coach or trainer does as well.
You know, he's not in a higher Cree on top.
And you know, commanding to whatever degree, you know, needs
to be done. It it it's it's team effort.
You do this together. Yeah, I've since last year kind
of in January switched from software engineering to product
management and some stuff I really enjoy when it comes to
figuring out the why and actually going for value
specifically with the team and then delivering that.
But I miss the fulfilment of delivery.
Like when something and someone praises the team, it's like or
praises me, I'm like, OK, but like I feel like I barely
contribute even though I am kind of behind the scenes
orchestrating things. That part of fulfilment of
delivering is different in this way.
Yeah. Was that for you as well?
Because you even even the scale of things were different and
global as well. That's a really good question.
What interesting point is, is that at the end, you know the
customer ask you know what they want and and based on that,
well, everybody has their own skill set I would say.
And based on that, you know we went along and say, OK, OK, for
this customer we need to have this.
For that customer we need to have that.
And actually, if you get all this, I would say team members
again in line, creating the vision together and, and let
them establish, you know, what needs to be done.
Actually, nobody was left behind.
Even the QA or the product owner or whatever person within that
organization had a tremendous impact in in the bigger picture.
It was not just the one who deployed the code.
And, and so, OK, you know, we are live, you know, we've done
it well, thumbs up, but you know, there's a whole big, uh,
well, amount of task before that needs to be successful.
And and I think that something, and I think it's great that you
mentioned you change profession as well and through every role
asked the wrong thing. But I think it's important as a
trainer, leader, coach for that matter, to get everybody on
board and make sure what what you know, the decision, the aim,
the objective is to work a doors.
Yeah, For me, that's one of the single most things.
Like if I were to pick one, learning, it's that a common
goal really unites people. And there needs to be clarity,
right? And the role of whomever that is
that conveys that goal is to provide that clarity.
Because if things are unclear, either people make assumptions
or there's noise on the line and people just don't buy in as
much. When when things are crystal
clear, you can see, OK, we're a common goal.
We work together towards this. If something else comes in,
people know what the priority is because this is the goal and
they act and they act independently as well.
Well, maybe to, to, I mean, goal objective is true.
Personally, I think sharing a vision is a little bit broader
because I mean, you can have a goal objective for the next 6
months, I would say. But sharing the bigger picture
from a strategic standpoint, you know, where do we stand now and
where we want to go? And I think the projects that
I've LED different throughout the COVID days was a big project
in the Middle East. I mean, it was clear they didn't
have any visibility online because since they were just in,
in the physical stores, but then go with it, then everything
needs to go online. They had something like, OK, we
need to make sure that not only for the short term but also for
the long term, we need to scale, you know, and that doesn't
happen within the year. So I think in total, I've been
on this project a little bit over three years, I guess.
And still then while changing roles, I was still involved in
that. But sharing that vision with the
team in the beginning helps to set a bar back to the team where
you can create small goals or objectives for the period in
between, but still have the long vision.
And on the horizon. I would say, you know that that
I would say back to the team members that help them to not
give up, but see that that if something didn't work and true,
I mean we made mistakes as well, but growing not only from our
part but also from the customers part actually we became much
closer. And then I think the turning
point was after a year and a half, everybody saw not saying
the light, you know, sounds a little bit holistic, but at some
point it's like, well, now we see that the things are turning
and we're becoming more stable and, and we are more respectful
to each other because, you know, sometimes establishing
relationship between the vendor and the team trust, I would say,
doesn't happen in a week, doesn't happen in a month.
You know, it's that relationship that you build.
And from from that turning point on, it's like, OK, we trust you,
you trust us. Now let's see, let's let's make
it happen. And then things started
changing. And then at some point, I think
we were definitely after Black Friday, I think we grew 1700%, I
would say from an ecommerce perspective.
And that was unheard of. They'd never seen these numbers,
but doesn't happen overnight. No.
Zooming into that vision then, is that something that comes
from the business? Is that something that comes
from you? Is that something that is kind
of a collaborative effort and is a shared vision that gets
created, or how does it exist and where does it come from?
That's a really good question. I mean, true, there's a simple
answer that that, you know, somebody needs to define the
vision, but I would say it's, it's again, the magic that
happened on this project. Actually, where and, and not
saying that was a coincidence, but actually the CTO, he was a
Dutch guy, although he was on the roads for, with his family
for, for I would say almost 20 years, maybe not sure if, if
that's correct. But I mean, he wasn't, you know,
located in the Netherlands, but he was Dutch, but he was
actually living in Kuwait back then.
But establishing that relationship between him, my
strategic advisor, her name is Marion, She was, she was
awesome. So doing this together, I was
learning a lot about the strategic components where I
knew the technical component, the business component, but she
was able to help modify and, and get that vision across within
their organization and, and while speaking the same
language. True, that helps, but true.
I mean, in the beginning, actually there were a little bit
like, OK, let's see, you know, deliver, deliver.
But actually once that vision was established, it's like, OK,
this is the overall vision that we have in mind.
And they were sharing their war being transparent.
And I think that's really important.
I'm not saying that you should share everything, but I think
the more you share, the better it is for a vendor to deliver at
the highest level possible because you know if you would
hold on, on some pieces, it will not work.
So I would say establishing that and I think it took maybe also a
year to get that connection. And, and from that even up until
now, I mean, although, you know, I left the company, he left the
company. We sometimes text and then we go
for a run on the beach, you know, wherever we are or, and
that that's kind of funny, you know, once you've established
that relationship, not saying that that's the same as a
friendship, but I guess it's similar where if you're friends
with each other, you trust each other.
And that's the same thing with a relationship from a business
standpoint. Once you start trusting each
other, you can establish that vision and then that vision can
be shared to the rest of the team.
And then you have this holistic overall view together where we
need to go. Yeah.
I'm curious because you mentioned you can't necessarily
share everything, but also I'm curious when you share because
if things are still in progress, do you share when the vision for
you is, let's say, crystal clear?
Or do you bring people along so it can become a shared vision
and if you take them along, you have a higher chance of getting
by in that way? Yeah, true.
But I again and and, and I think respect to him back to the
organization, but I've seen that these sometimes struggle as well
because, you know, the different parts within the organization
where people have different visions, of course, and visions
can change. And that's not a good thing.
That's not a bad thing, sorry, that's not a bad thing.
But I think adapting to the vision, but sharing the vision
back to the team. Not saying that that needs to
change or be consistent, but I've noticed definitely from an
engineering perspective, if you keep changing division, your
team, they they go wild scatter. Yeah, that's scatters like
what's going on? I mean, we had, you know, A, we
B. So keep the team as stable as
possible, keep the holistic vision shared to them and the
details and, and and how we do it is that can be shared on, on
wallet management level, I would say for an executive level.
Gotcha. I've noticed that things like
execution, they're very much are within development teams.
But things like strategy and vision, sometimes they are being
shared continuously transparently to the point of
fulfilment, but sometimes they're also not shared and then
the expectation to execute is there.
Yet there is no time to actually educate people and have the
patience to bring people along in that way.
I like this one actually. This reminds me on a on a
different project and, and to really keep it simple.
And, and that's something I've mentioned several times back to
not only my teams or other projects.
Once the the vision of of the company and, and the Fender are
aligned, you can do magic. But if the knowledge is not the
same, it's like, you know the balance, you know, where are we,
let's say as as a vendor and where's the we are there?
If, if that's not a line, I mean, you can still talk the
same language, but it will never line up.
So I always say make sure that that you're on the same level
from the communication standpoint, you understand what
we're talking about technically or business wise.
And from their perspective on, I think it's great to, well, get
into the weeds, do the discovery, you know, get all the
workshop done and then we'll start drafting the whole plan
that that needs to be built. But if you are not aligned, you
will end up on so many issues along the way that that that
well, leads into discussions and leads into, well, hard
discussions. And it it's a mismatch, yeah.
It's hard to see, I think from inside out if you are aligned
because probably from a, from a leadership standpoint, you think
you are and then from the groundwork you might think it's,
it's odd, right? But you have to have an equal
level of communication and actually a conversation person
to person, right? Yeah, We first have to connect
person to person before we connect whatever role we have
and then try and execute. The funny thing is I I've shared
this with my team and and well, now it's great to share this as
well. The software actually doesn't do
anything. It's the team and the members
that make it happen. So by itself I mean you can have
software. But I mean, it's the way you
interpreted it and how you create it or you how you
customize it based on the requirements.
And and that's us, that's human beings.
So if if I if I'm not understanding, I would say that
the specifications well enough, I probably will create technical
death which is a cost component which is not efficient.
So the more I'm not saying you should waste time as much as
possible in the beginning, but but be as precise as possible
based on the knowledge level. If the knowledge level on both
levels are the same kind of difficult sometimes, but at
least you know try as much as possible, then these
requirements and specifications will lead into a better product.
Yeah. That's always been like the
challenge for me. Also looking at a product
stance, because we can, for example, work on a new objective
and therefore I'm putting everyone in the same room,
stakeholders and development team.
But then I've noticed that things might be a little bit too
early where things go in every which way with regards to this
objective that we have and how we want to solve it.
And the feedback of the engineering team is like, this
is too early. Like the business is still not
ready. And from the business side, it's
like, yeah, this was a bit of a mess and we need, we need a bit
more time. So then I've pivoted and I said,
OK, who's interested in who wants to go like in a complete
journey from the engineering team?
And some people say yes, and some people say maybe, maybe
later. And then we collaborate later
on. And I'm experimenting with that
to see what fits like bringing everyone on where we're from .0
or starting when we're at like 20% of the way or when things
are clear 50% of the way. And because I want that
technical expertise, because then we could stare and look at
feasibility, but it takes time. 100 percent, 100%.
Funny thing is, the thing you just mentioned, actually in my
brain, something popped up and that's a comic.
And that's a comic that I still refer to sometimes from a book
called Don't Make Me Think by Steve Crock.
Actually, maybe we can share it later on.
But there's a really nice comic how different departments
communicate with each other within the project.
And everybody has their own responsibility and focus on, on,
well, this is me, this is me. And but at the end it, it's
everybody together. Yeah.
And I think that's the thing and that's why I like the title as
much. You know, don't make me think if
everybody does the due diligence and and cohesively work
together, you can deliver this, this not saying perfect product,
but at least it gives a little bit more quality to what needs
to be delivered. Yeah.
In the end, like I think experimenting like that and
seeing what people's preferences are is good because it also kind
of matures your processes. Oh yeah.
And your way of working as a team A. 100% I don't think.
There's a, there's a silver bullet.
I come in with a gut feeling. That's, that's definitely my
approach is like, OK, I know a lot from software engineering.
Now I'm doing product. Let's see how this goes.
Yeah. And I'm happy with achievements
and sure, things don't always go the right way and then we steer.
But I keep an open mind. Then I keep an open book and I
I'm very transparent with what I communicate.
Well, that's some things go awry.
I'll just like there's no need to hide it.
There's no benefit in hiding. It so I don't know learn, learn,
learn from doing. I mean true.
I mean we are human beings. Let's be real.
I mean, if something goes bad, I mean own it, learn from it and
grow because that, that's the way we can well get this.
And what's the term again? Psychological safety, you know,
once you we have the, the, the psychological safety within the
team, you're open and transparent enough to grow and
learn from any mistakes that happen.
Yeah, absolutely. I want to get into hiring
because you're responsible for setting up and growing A-Team
globally. I get a lot of questions from
people that are abroad either in Asia or South America and they
want something stable at a bigger company which is not in
their region. Let's say they say how can I
distinguish myself specifically? Let's say they're a software
engineer, potentially they are more early in career.
How would you look at it from a hiring perspective or how can
they stand out from the crowd there?
That's a good question. There's this is simple and maybe
difficult answer to that question.
Let let me start with the simple one.
I mean, I was working with Magento, Adobe commerce
software. So hiring somebody who has the
skills or the certification that really helps, you know, that
stands out. And, and even in, in resumes
that I've read, they had Linux, you know, all all those
additional requirements that helped to distinguish.
Now, is this guy or girl or person the best person to to hit
even repositories and get help help to review the quality of
the code that created or maybe even the the contribution within
the community, because we had a wide community where software
were shares. Since it's open source, that
helps a lot to see, you know, what's the level of knowledge
this person has and adapting that.
That's a simple answer. So you know, getting a qualified
person that has six years of knowledge.
Well, true. I mean, and he's a great guy.
Well, get on board. The difficult one is if you are
looking within roles on, on the requirements that are not as
specifics as as Magenta. Let's say I'm looking for a
product owner that needs to have let's say 5 or 10 years of, of
product knowledge and he needs to create a SAS multi SAS
solution. So something totally new, you
know, developing something from scratch, definitely within cloud
and SAS nowadays, I would say there's not a lot of people on
the resume. They can say, well, I've built
successes. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Okay, so having an
understanding, but also having a creative mind and being open
minded from a creativity standpoint and analytic
standpoint, it's hard to describe in a resume.
So what I've done, actually, I had different questions, you
know, written up and I was having an interview kind of
similar like like this one, you know, let's say I give you this
case, what comes across, how do you handle that?
And to be honest, I think in, in some cases, it's, it's important
for me definitely for specific roles to be more analytical and
be creative and, and be open minded on, well, maybe I don't
have the solution, but I can find the solution for you.
Or maybe I have components and work with other guys on the team
to find that, that established trust ownership.
And the personal thing that I like is entrepreneurial.
I mean, maybe because I was an entrepreneur back in the day,
but that that entrepreneurial skill set that's unique.
You don't need to have 10 people that are entrepreneurial team
because actually don't then you don't get built anything.
But having one or two that have that skill set helps them to get
the strong relationship between and and and get things done
because at some point you need to get things done instead of,
you know, just getting in the room and getting into a white
board and just creating diagrams.
And at the end you don't have a solution yet because at some
point you need to start delivering.
Yeah. And I think that helps depending
on the role, what quality set, because if I'm looking for
product owner, Scrum Master, it's pretty clear actually, they
don't mind on what the software it looks like.
They just want to make sure that they are able to manage this,
deliver this in a Sprint on cadence, etcetera, etcetera.
So I guess it depends on the role, what you're looking at
and, and if the personality matches that well, back to the
Champions League analogue, you know, is this the person with
the team that's a cultural fit that makes it happen.
And I, I personally, I don't care where they locate it, if
they are that team player that that makes the difference within
the bigger picture. I mean, you're mine.
So zoom in on that, like how much of that can you actually
train or develop or how much is just there already?
Well, that's a, that's a really good question.
I would say if you ask me this question several years ago, I
would say, well, I don't know, maybe it's there, maybe it
isn't. But actually I've read a couple
of books over the last couple of years.
And if you look at neurodiversity, it's kind of
interesting to see how. And again, with all respect to
all the listeners out there, you know, everybody has their own
brain. The, the type of brain is
unique. So if you look into a brain type
where somebody has dyslexia like myself, and if you have HDD, so
everybody has their own blueprints, actually that
blueprint defines because it's it's there by birth defines on,
on what you're good at. Funny thing is a couple of years
ago and maybe you recall, we had well, COVID, of course.
And then we had a big issue at Schiphol where we had luggage
issues. And funny thing is, in the local
newspaper NSA, there was an article which mentions like,
well, maybe it's better now to send a dozen of dyslexia people
to Skipple because they're able to fix that issue.
And the reason why is it seems that people with dyslexia, they
have an extraordinary analytic brain that help solving issues
in a really creative way. So again, every brain is unique.
What, a dozen dyslexia people in the team work well, maybe, but I
would say you probably don't get any delivery.
So you need to have these, well, autistic people at some point,
which is not a bad thing because they're really good.
They're really precise, they're really quality driven.
Create a good match and I think that helps us now would
definitely would an engineering to establish that that
foundation that makes sense on on well on all levels.
I, I, I think I understand what you're getting at.
It's just very hard for me to think of that and to put into
practice, right? Because I think either you're
going to start from scratch and then you're going to hire people
that are depending on your strategy, either similar like
you or have some similar components and values, but are
diverse and people you can learn from and look up to in certain
other areas. And at some point you're going
to have a team. And then it's a matter of, OK,
how is, how can someone enhance this team or how can this take a
team to a next level? And I don't know how I would do
that in practice. Well, I guess it's, it's also
learning and doing. I mean, I wouldn't say if, if I
would create it as a team 10 years ago, I probably would have
done it differently. But I guess over the years,
well, not only, you know, getting older or more mature or
getting enough knowledge and, and seeing multiple projects
around the globe, it helped me to look at the person
individually and see how that person is, is thrilled.
I mean, actually funny thing is now within my new role, 2 days
ago I had a meeting with a new colleague and I let him
introduce himself. And at the end I was asking was
like, what would you change right now within your role?
What would make you happy or what doesn't make you happy?
And I met this person just 30 minutes ago.
But just asking him if there was something that he would like to
change. He never had that question being
asked and he all of a sudden like, oh, interesting.
So if I'm being responsible for my personal success, what would
I change? And I think sometimes it's
important to ask this question back to team members.
Not every week, you know, that would be insane.
But asking that gives a little bit of the momentum looking him
in the eye, although this was on teams and he goes like and the
thinking moment sometimes help how quickly he reacts and what
does he say? And actually that defines on on
how do people react within different changes within the
organization and how can they fit in better?
Or I mean, true again, there needs to be a click, but
actually these kind of questions opens up people.
So I started learning, asking different questions, still not
saying that I know everything, not at all.
There's still much to learn. But I noticed that asking these
these kind of silly questions helps me but also helps them to
start gaining trust a little bit because I need to build that
relationship with them and that takes time.
Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing as you were going in.
I was like, this is going to build trust.
Yeah. And I've seen it, right.
I've even done it in job interviews where it's very much
on the job. You tell a little bit about
yourself because that's just part of, let's say, an interview
question. And then you have the
opportunity to ask questions. Yeah.
And I ask questions about the job, but also about the person.
I want to know how this person sees their role in the
organization, what they're most proud of, because then I can
kind of estimate, OK, what type of impact is going to be
appreciated? Or in general, how's it going to
be like working with this person?
Right. You build a small relationship
just by having a conversation. And you do that bit by bit until
there is trust. And I think that can be very
much. Yeah, it's it's valued over
time. Oh, 100%.
I mean, again, it, it, it, it's not about the relationship
business wise, but it's just a human interaction.
I mean, you'll probably meet a lot of people on your way to
work or maybe in a bar that you've never met before.
And if the connection is right, I mean, the connection is right.
And that's the same, you know, meeting a new person at a new
job. I mean, establish that, you
know, see where they feel comfortable and, and, and build
a trustworthy relationship from that.
And you don't need to be friends, I would say, but be
respectful, be interested, be genuine.
I think that's most important. Yeah, yeah, I think those you
definitely have, but you can also say, OK, that's what I want
to get better AT and you can experiment.
Yeah, Yeah. I want to get into the knowledge
aspect of things because I think this tech field is very unique
in that and I don't have a lot of experience in other fields,
but it's continuously learning and developing, right?
New technology comes out. We're now especially with Gen.
AI, I feel like already I stepped out of software
engineering for one year and people are talking about vibe
coding and I, I don't have the pros and cons because I haven't
done that hands on for a year. Things move fast.
Like you have to be educated and keep educating yourself.
A funny thing is, I mean we are recording this now.
Actually, looking back last, I would say 4-5 days, I was lucky
enough to visit AW Summit in Amsterdam on Wednesday and, and
every day there's an event. I mean, there's so many things
going on continuously and then reading newsletters and all of a
sudden, you know, it's like, please, you know, it's a pause
button. I've I've never within, I would
say the software space, the pace on on software being released at
this moment, yeah, it's just too high.
It's insane. It's.
It's insane. And The funny thing is and and
maybe interesting for our listeners over here and this
really stood out. That was presentation on Edward
Summit by an organization called Poolside, Poolside dot AI.
And they claim again, with all respect that they created not
only a foundation model on AI, but also be the tool itself for
engineering. And what do they mean?
I mean, now I would say Gemini and and DeepSeek and all the big
models are there. They have the option to develop
code, but it seems that the quality of codes isn't that
good. I want to be respectful again to
all the solutions out there, all the listeners.
The funny thing is, again, this is what I've seen throughout the
presentation, that just in the middle, the sweet spot.
So they create a code, but being developed on your code.
So you actually have this solution now only within 8 hours
available when you can train your personal codes and it keeps
being well, fine-tuned, trained, optimized from the perspective
on, but establishes and that's the prediction.
They have much higher quality of code, which would define.
And I was thinking already it's like, OK, if, if let's assume
that the quality of code would be 90%.
I mean you could fire or not hire depending on you look at it
within your own team. So imagine 2-3 years from now if
we have this model which is 90% accurate, you just give it your
codes or history of codes, you create a really good prompt and
it starts building this multi model functionality in whatever
language. I mean how remarkable would it
be? And then The thing is, was also
demonstration now we into multiple agents agentic, you
might have heard of it. Would these agentic agents be QA
agents or even deliver a performance test or not only
deliver the performance test, but initially deploy all the
code that necessary to do a high performance low test.
I mean, the scenarios are wild. So pretty cool.
I mean, I mean, from a future perspective, you know, I'm
thrilled. I'm I'm always like, wow, cool.
But if from a business perspective, and there was a
discussion that I heard as well this week, I think it was Bill
Gates who mentioned that if we are going into these virtual
robotics and we're not hiring people anymore, what's the
impact? And do these virtual robots
needs to be charged from a taxing standpoint?
Because all of a sudden, I mean, it's great that we are
delivering these virtual robots, but true, I mean, business wise,
we're not hiring anybody, although we are having so many
human beings available, but we're not using them.
So what's kind of interesting to see again within a week, what's
changing what, what diversion economically, politically,
technically are happening? I would say sometimes, you know,
is that pause button to just recap and say, what's the next
strategy? Because every week I need to
rethink my strategy. So I think it's important for
me, we're in my current role as head of innovation to be ahead
of the curve, but also be cautious enough on what would
make sense for the long run where my engineers, our
engineers are working on a solution that not only.
Gives them a job, I would say, you know, feels having a cost,
you know, a goal of vision that they're working towards being
successful as a human being from a career perspective and not
being nervous on what's happening around them in an
ecosystem. Because I'm hearing too many
people like maybe I'll lose my job, you know, with this whole
AI thing that's not a good, you know, thing within your
organization. Because nervous people with all
respect, well, they can do bad things.
Not saying that they want to, but you know, personally it,
it's something, you know, that that's just by nature.
So, so be cautious on that. So again, it's great to have
these great enormous times, but we are going really quick.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I feel like so with AI, what
we've seen is indeed a reducing head count.
I hope that we move towards the future where we build more
things. I think there's a lot of things
that we can improve. There's a lot wrong with the
planet which we can fix, and software can help with that.
Yet we do focus on like making money specifically, and a lot of
solutions are very similar across organizations because
we're solving the same problem with people in software along
the same lines. e-commerce is a huge example of that, and
everyone needs it. But to create your own kind of
custom version or to get something off the shelf and have
people do it, yeah, that is kind of formulaic.
And that is what AI will be good at.
I I think it's a shame that we cut in headcount and that we
don't use people more effectively.
Like if all of a sudden your people become more productive,
why don't you try more things? Why don't you do more instead of
reducing the headcount that you have and then optimizing for
what you already do? So I think generally we will try
and trailblaze more because that is also what AI is not good at,
right? 100% when there are a lot of
examples, that's what it gets really good.
Yeah. But when things are new and when
things are innovative, things are not there yet within a
model. No, no, not at all.
Not at all. So that's going to be a
difference maker. Well, the question is, you know,
what's going to be there five years from now within the model?
We don't know yet. I mean, true.
I mean, we can think about it. It's kind of interesting to, you
know, see the future, but one thing that keeps standing out
the human being is unique. The, the knowledge, the
personality, the trust. Again, in customer care, you
know, who do you trust? Do you trust the bots and
everybody smart enough to figure out after maybe, you know, 5
replies, it's like, OK, I want to speak to a human being.
I wouldn't build a relationship. I want to build trust.
Not saying that everybody should work now in customer care, but
again, having a trustworthy relationship with a company,
with a brand, I would say that establishes well the quality of
the business, not only the AI or the robot or whatever.
Yeah, I think if people have this kind of learning mindset,
right, and even though some jobs might become obsolete, roles
will also evolve, right? Instead of doing the hands on
work, you might oversee an agent or something AI related that
does it for you. And then you have to see if
there's trends or if we can improve with regards to the
business outcomes. So your role, instead of doing
the work yourself, becomes kind of more high over and more
orchestrating. True.
Interesting thing is, and maybe turning around a little bit,
wouldn't it be a bad thing? And I was even looking in the
mirror myself, like, OK, you know, I grew up with tech.
I love tech. But actually my study goes back
into hospitality management, working with human beings, you
know, And I think on the job market, there's a big miss in
electricians, plumbers, you know, other people out there.
With all respect, I think there's so many crafted
goodmanship out there which get lost more or less.
I think it's good that we look at what the level of need is
within our, I would say, profession globe, but also
direct towards that. I mean, let's face it, IT, it's
a world paying job. Why did I change profession?
Well, pay was better than within hospitality and I was good at
it. But would I go back?
Yeah, maybe kind of interesting. Not saying I'm sure what I want
to do, but maybe we need to look at leveling.
I would say the income back to other jobs, because you can
imagine if, if an IT job would pay as much as a plumber, I
would say that a lot of people probably would say, OK, cool,
let me be a plumber. You know, I'd like to get out
there. Not saying that it's simple.
I mean, I've, I've look at the technicians on, on some jobs out
there and, and they need to be technical as well.
But I think it's good that we keep a good eye on on what AI
does and how we maybe derail some roles back to other
professions where there's a big need.
You know, even in, in, in, in, in the caring department,
medical care department, I mean, there's a big shortage.
So I think would be a good discussion to see how can we
optimize the knowledge of the human being within the economy
at this moment. I mean, I think digital would
have to play a role to a certain degree, right?
Because the reason why tech pay, tech pays so well is like the
impact of what you do goes to a lot of people.
Things that like like plumbing doesn't necessarily scale.
If you go from house to house, there's only so many houses you
can cover within a day. With software, you can reach
millions. Especially if you do like the
mobile app, it goes very quickly.
I know. And things just don't scale the
same way. Like a it would have to be
something digital that helps there, but I don't know what it
would be. Well, I guess that's a question.
You know, you and I probably not going to figure it out, you know
what in this session. But it's an interesting debate,
at least to define what would make sense and and how do we
teach our children? I mean, even my daughter, I
mean, she started in in fashion and now she wants to be a
digital scientist. Yeah, it's kind of funny all of
a sudden that that not only the profession probably would pay
much better and and she's interested in the AI stuff and
everybody's now doing the AI stuff, but it's good sometimes
to have this this skill on on maybe doing something else.
So the question is, you know first of all what makes you
happy and and where is a shortage where you can stillwell
be passionate about it? Yeah, absolutely.
On a very side note, like I went to this marketing conference
just because I thought it was interesting and fashion and
digital actually crossed there because I said that digital
marketing, digital avatars representing their clothes or
the fashion brands clothes. And I was like, that's the kind
of out-of-the-box thinking that I hope we can do with AI because
we solved the same problems. And then we look at, OK, how can
we do this beyond and do something unique?
But in the fashion industry, I think for several years already,
ARVRI mean you just look in the mirror and, and, and it creates
a copy, these digital mirrors that actually change, you know,
create a photo and you just pick the clothes and all of a sudden
you're wearing it virtually. Yeah.
That's where I want to go. Yeah, well, it's already there.
Yeah, it's already there. It's not yet it's not an every
store, but it's already there. I've I've seen it, but it it's
remarkable where these technologies still emerge and
and, and see how it benefits everybody.
But again, it it's, it's a gimmick.
You know, we don't need it to be fair.
It's it's great. You know, it's it's, it's, it's
this next big toy that looks fancy.
And then probably after a while, you know, we get bored and, and
then seen that toy, but I think they're probably still creating
it. The question back, you know, on,
on what makes sense? How do we actually, you know,
change maybe the the the the world for a better place at some
point not not being but I think having that answer definitely
would would make sense on on how to use AI in that space.
Yeah. As a kind of last thought before
we round off then let's say you're a listener and and you're
probably within tech, probably hands on as a software
engineering role. And you see this kind of out
there with regards to uncertainty potentially for your
own role, but definitely for the industry with regards to a
technology that is up and coming.
What would you advise to such a person that's listening then
with regards to what should they do more on the hands on, maybe
from a learning approach, maybe within their career or it could
even be a mindset thing. What would you say?
Thank you for asking. I think it's a really great
question. It's not an easy one.
I think first of all, it's important to define what's your
personal interest and not like what your, I would say, parents
or teacher might think of. And, and funny thing is, well,
going back, personally, I just wanted to go into sports back in
the day. You know, it's like, OK, sports
is my thing and, and my parents didn't agree with that.
So I needed to do something else.
And well, I, I, I, I came into hospitality and then I taught
everything with an IT and I'm passionate about IT.
But I think it's important to look back.
And now, I mean, I, I became 50 last year.
I sometimes look back. It's like, OK, what would have
happened if I went into the sports arena?
I mean, would it help me now? Probably, yeah, because it
doesn't affect the whole IAI debate.
You know, sports, I mean, true, you can go into, but the
physical sport activities, being a personal trainer or whatever,
or just an athlete, they don't care about AI.
And in true, they probably have tools like like the rings that
we wear that helps them to recover in in in a really good
way. But at the end they don't care.
So there's a lot of professions out there that don't mind the
whole AI debates, which is just a big marketing boss or this
industrial revolution that we are in.
So I would say look in the mirror yourself and ask yourself
like, what's my first passion? And again, my first passion is a
sports. Would I go back now into sports?
Well, maybe not sure, you know, see what happens.
But I think asking yourselves that question, what's your first
passion? What's your second passion?
What's your third passion? Maybe that helps to define on on
again, back to the brain discussion, You know, what's
what, what type of brain do you have?
What, what makes sense? I mean, some people are really
well crafted, you know, creating these unique art.
Again, they can use AI, but necessarily they don't need it
and depending after just, you know, creating pictures.
But if they're just doing that, the manual work, again, it's
new. But going back to the question,
just look in the mirror and ask yourself what's me and what I
want to be? I think self reflecting like
that and learning more about yourself, I've definitely not
done it enough. And it's an ongoing journey even
because interests evolve completely.
What I did then, what I wanted to do as a childhood is is still
there. And your perspective is broaden,
right? Especially as you learn from
more people, also diverse people, you evolve.
So yeah. Funny thing is, last thing, if
somebody would come up to me and would say, well, can you lead
this sports team into a next phase?
And and I probably will look at it again to the analogy on, on
the, you know, creating a team and coaching A-Team.
Yeah, I probably would say interesting.
Yeah. I never thought about this at
all. But actually if I'm looking in
what in my heart I will be passionate about, you know,
leading A-Team. If it's half to pay, probably,
yeah. But if it helps me to be
passionate about getting the best individual person you know
on the field or doing whatever, I probably would say yeah.
That's really cool. Yeah.
And I think that that's something we need to look in the
mirror ourselves and and maybe, you know, once you start, you
know, growing older and true money is an important thing, but
not as important as as personal health.
And I think asking that question yourself.
So all the listeners out there, you know, just put pause.
I would say reflect, look in the mirror and say, you know, what's
my first passion? And would I join that first
passion if somebody would ask me?
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on.
Right. This has been a real blast.
You're welcome. I really enjoyed this
conversation. Likewise.
Awesome.
Then we're going to round it off here.
Thank you so much for listening. The best way to support the show
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