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Hey guys, today we talk about 
teaching yourself how to program

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and my guest was self-taught and
is also an entrepreneur. 

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We talk about the growing 
importance of knowing more about

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programming and technology in 
general, just how it works 

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behind the scenes because we're 
gonna face it in the future. 

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My guest today Roy Decks. 
And don't forget to like and 

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subscribe if you're on YouTube 
and follow us on your favorite 

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podcast platform. 
Enjoy. 

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Welcome to Beyond Coding, a dive
into the world of Successful. 

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People in it from your sponsors,
Zibia, creating digital leaders.

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Here's your host, Patrick Akeel 
Roy. 

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How's it going, man? 
All good. 

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Thank you, Patrick. 
Cool man. 

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So I invited you on to talk 
about self-taught engineers and 

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I think it's kind of evolving 
since. 

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But you're self-taught, right? 
Yes, indeed so. 

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Well, most of all, I'm an 
entrepreneur now, but I also 

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like to create software, and I 
started doing this when I was 14

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already to actually start my 
entrepreneurial journey. 

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Nice, that 14 is quite young. 
You always knew you wanted to 

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kind of pursue that 
entrepreneurial journey. 

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Yeah, So my father is also an 
entrepreneur, mostly in retail, 

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bars, these kind of things. 
But from early on, I already 

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knew I wanted to start my own 
business, I think. 

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In lower school I was already 
selling like gumbars and these 

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kind of things to people at the 
school. 

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Yeah that's awesome. 
So then at 14 what did you pick 

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up cuz you said you were 
self-taught? 

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Is that why you kind of kick 
started your career in that? 

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Yeah, so I was 14 then. 
I'm 28 now, so it's about 14 

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years ago, and I think PHP was 
then the sort of biggest, 

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easiest language. 
You had Java, but it's really 

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hard to start with Java if you 
don't. 

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Know anything yet? 
So I started with PHP and 

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basically I reverse engineered 
an open source framework just to

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figure out how it could change 
things because plugins were also

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expensive. 
So I had this ID for a 

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marketplace for DVDs because 
that was the major problem. 

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I wanted to start becoming an 
entrepreneur. 

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I really liked watching movies, 
but downloading movies 40 years 

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ago was you could do it, but 
it's a bit harder and it was 

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also illegal. 
So it's something I didn't want 

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to do that much. 
So I wanted to have more DVDs, 

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but my pocket money was also 
limited. 

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So I had one or two choices 
actually, yeah, so you either 

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make more money or find a new 
way to get DVDs. 

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So I came out with like a 
marketplace to buy, sell and try

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to use DVDs. 
Cool, man. 

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And that was you started at age 
14. 

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When, when did the marketplace 
then actually launch and how did

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it go? 
Well, I think the same year I 

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didn't really liked high school.
It was OK to be there during the

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breaks I meet friends, but most 
of the classes were a bit 

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boring. 
And so I did my entire best to 

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not be there as much as possible
within the legal boundaries. 

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And then all my free time, I 
either spent it with friends or 

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I divided into coding. 
Yeah, and I think it went life 

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quite fast because, well, you 
had all these plugins, so in 

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theory it was really easy to do.
But then if you're a 

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perfectionist, it's always 
harder to make something that 

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you feel is worth going live 
with. 

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Yeah, I mean, it's never gonna 
be perfect. 

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So at some point you just need 
to be confident enough and 

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comfortable enough to go live 
with it, right? 

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Yeah, definitely. 
And I think, well, at least back

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then, my biggest priority was 
make sure the UI is okay. 

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Yeah. 
And Ui's were very different, 

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like 14 years ago. 
Absolutely. 

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The media was the biggest pain 
point. 

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The UI should actually be good. 
And then the actual experience 

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how everything function came 
second. 

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Yeah, then you have that nice 
look and feel and kind of the 

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functional thing. 
I mean, it should work. 

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Should do this thing as well. 
Yeah, I need websites. 14 years 

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ago are very different and 
things were slow. 

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You need to reload the page 
every time you did an action. 

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We had jQuery, PHP. 
I don't really know people that 

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use PHP anymore. 
I think Claravel is sort of 

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okayish, yeah. 
But jQuery? 

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Luckily it's gone. 
Now it's gone, yeah. 

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And I mean way back when you 
didn't have to deal with mobile 

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views as well, which is now it's
very big basically, but then 

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after you kind of kick started 
your market, it was a 

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marketplace, right? 
Yeah, like a peer-to-peer 

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marketplace. 
It was mostly free trading 

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between people and then there 
was subscription model if you 

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wanted to get a higher ranking 
in the trading. 

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So I made an algorithm or just a
bunch of FL statements, not 

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really an algorithm which is 14.
So people could find their DVDs 

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easier and if you paid like I 
think it was like €5 per month 

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or something, you will get a 
higher ranking in the algorithm.

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Nice. 
So people with their own product

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could rank higher because of 
that. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
So. 

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And they could also do more 
threads. 

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Okay, that makes sense. 
Cool man. 

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So for me personally, out of 
high school, I didn't know what 

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I wanted to do if I wanted to go
to the university or start 

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working right off the bat. 
Was that for you then? 

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The same because you already had
a taste of the business life, 

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let's call it pretty early on. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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As for me, there's always 
doubting Do I want to be a 

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software engineer or do I want 
to be an entrepreneur? 

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Do I want to be both? 
And back then, I think I didn't 

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really realize you could be 
both. 

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Yeah. 
So when I finished high school, 

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I'd like do choices like either 
get funding for my startup, the 

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marketplace, which is my 
preference, or go to university,

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what my parents really wanted. 
And in the end, I think we 

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settled on going to university 
just to make sure you have a job

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in the future exactly. 
But it's really hard for me to 

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decide between do I want to 
study computer science or do I 

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want to study business 
economics, do I want to do 

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something else? 
Because still. 

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I really hated education. 
I really hated high school. 

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So it's also looking for ways to
not having to study but do get 

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an education. 
So I've explored all kinds of 

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things, but in the end I ended 
up with Economics and Business 

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economics, which was sort of a 
nice addition to what I've 

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already done before. 
But in the end, I'm not really 

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sure if I actually learned 
things that I don't know, sort 

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of helped me in my career. 
Yeah, it's hard to say in 

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hindsight, right? 
Because it's a lot of theory, 

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not necessarily that practical 
experience which you get when 

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you're done with university. 
Yeah, definitely. 

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And during university also, I 
don't know you're using models 

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and thinking better instead have
been there for like 40 or 50 

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years, which is kind of okay. 
I recently met a woman and she 

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didn't went to university and 
it's sort of a group of people 

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which will help each other to 
become more influential in 

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public opinions and she's the 
only one that didn't study in 

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university and. 
She also mentioned that we are 

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way more structured like the 
other people that did study 

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compared to her. 
Yeah. 

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So I think in the end, it maybe 
did help me a bit. 

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Yeah, it probably gives you that
structure basically to do well. 

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You have a certain goal and it 
might be an assignment or 

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accomplishing someone or working
together with some other people 

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and you do that kind of 
continuously throughout your 

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educational career I guess. 
So maybe in those later levels 

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you get better at it as well 
probably. 

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Yeah, I think indirectly, yeah. 
At least for my I mean, if 

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you're studying to become a 
surgeon or like a lawyer or 

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something that probably really 
needs your education, yeah. 

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But if economics abyss 
economics, I think most people 

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went on to consultancy in the 
end. 

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Yeah, exactly. 
Moving back then to self-taught 

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engineers way back when you 
taught yourself more of the 

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technical aspects. 
And I think people are still 

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doing it. 
I mean, either from university 

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or from high school, people that
have a laptop already can start 

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teaching themselves or watching 
videos. 

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There's enough content out there
to teach yourself a lot of 

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aspects, but what do you think 
makes the distinguish or the 

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difference between someone that 
just teaches themselves for the 

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heck of it and someone that can 
actually pursue a career down 

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the line with the things they've
taught themselves? 

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Well, it's sort of difficult. 
I think there are a lot of 

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people that start coding 
themselves like maybe under 

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ethic, maybe in their free time.
But I don't know if the numbers 

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would be interesting to get some
numbers on this, but I think a 

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lot of people don't actually 
pursue a career after this. 

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Yeah, I mean, I have friends 
that are in business or are 

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working for the university and 
they thought themselves out the 

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code for a bit, like maybe some 
Python to do some data analysis.

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And they basically thought the 
code, but they didn't really 

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pursue a code in software 
engineering. 

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Yeah. 
But I think the real difference 

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is persistent. 
So you need to like it. 

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You need to have stimulants at 
the right. 

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Moments in time, yeah. 
So for me it didn't have a 

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mentor or something, but because
I was building a business, I got

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feedback from customers saying 
things for slow things for non 

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performance. 
I don't know, maybe the 

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algorithm I made got stuck 
because at some point I got too 

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much users and then too much 
DVDs flowing in and then the 

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algorithm got stuck because we 
just if L statements. 

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Yeah, so I keep raising the PHP 
limits to process the files 

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within the engine got stuck. 
So you need to find new ways in 

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order to do this, and then you. 
You start Googling, you start 

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going to stack overflow, you 
start trying to find ways to 

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make it more efficient and for 
me that really helped. 

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But I think if I would have 
something like a mentor to help 

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me it would be even better. 
Or maybe university. 

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I did some classes in computer 
science and one was about SQL 

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and you actually needed to use 
sort of algebra in order to find

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the best or most efficient SQL 
query, which is also kind of 

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interesting because it changed 
my way of thinking. 

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So when I started being 
self-taught I thought. 

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Actually do this in this way 
because that's what I read 

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somewhere. 
Yeah. 

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And then when you actually go 
into computer science class, you

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actually start thinking about 
more theoretical, you start to 

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figure out how else can I do 
this. 

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Yeah, and it really helped me. 
But I think the biggest thing is

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persistence. 
So persistence and some sort of 

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a fall back. 
So either a mentor or maybe a 

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company you're building. 
Maybe not even a mentor, but 

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maybe a friend that's also start
studying with you. 

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Yeah. 
Or maybe if you start doing it 

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in a boot camp, it could be nice
to have other people in the boot

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camp that are also really 
ambitious. 

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Yeah, Yeah, like that. 
You said it's all about getting 

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that feedback right? 
And for you it was actual 

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customers. 
For other people, it can be the 

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the peers they're working with 
or a mentor they have behind 

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them to just talk about what 
you've created and the options 

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you've taken and and also which 
option you took, right? 

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Because if you're kind of new 
starting out, you as you 

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mentioned, I think there's only 
one way or a few ways, but 

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there's always multiple options 
you can choose from. 

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And I think right now what 
distinguish is a really good 

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developer is someone that kind 
of can weigh out those options 

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and can pick one or two of the 
best ones and then just pursue 

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one. 
And if it's not the right one 

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can still shift and take the 
other out. 

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But it's really hard I think to 
teach yourself that in thinking 

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of that because it's a shift in 
mindset, I think from being 

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self-taught to actually weighing
out the options and continuing 

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from there. 
Yeah, definitely. 

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So that's one thing I see 
happening, especially people 

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that follow boot camps. 
So if you there are like tons of

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boot camps out there and they 
will probably teach you one 

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thing like either Salesforce or 
Nodejs or React or View these 

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00:11:00,310 --> 00:11:03,230
kind of things, yeah. 
But they don't usually teach you

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how to use them. 
Because that's of course the 

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only thing you can teach someone
in weeks or months. 

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00:11:07,790 --> 00:11:10,730
Yeah, but you don't, really. 
Teach them how to think about 

229
00:11:10,730 --> 00:11:12,930
the patterns, how to compare the
other languages. 

230
00:11:13,450 --> 00:11:16,690
So usually in companies I work 
with, if they're junior 

231
00:11:16,690 --> 00:11:19,850
developers, I often tell them 
okay, try a different language. 

232
00:11:19,890 --> 00:11:24,770
If you're using TypeScript or no
JS, try switching to maybe 

233
00:11:24,770 --> 00:11:27,690
Python, Try something else, 
maybe even try Java just for the

234
00:11:27,690 --> 00:11:30,450
sake of it, just to get some 
comparison from another 

235
00:11:30,450 --> 00:11:32,730
language. 
Try to see what they're doing 

236
00:11:32,730 --> 00:11:34,450
there. 
Why do they do certain things? 

237
00:11:35,170 --> 00:11:37,410
How would it impact your own 
code styles so? 

238
00:11:37,820 --> 00:11:40,220
You can have like object 
orientated programming or 

239
00:11:40,820 --> 00:11:43,220
functional programming, but 
either language takes a 

240
00:11:43,220 --> 00:11:47,460
different approach and if you're
only used to react an example, 

241
00:11:47,460 --> 00:11:51,340
there's a language I use a lot. 
Then you sort of think that 

242
00:11:51,340 --> 00:11:54,100
everything you write is a 
component, but for a different 

243
00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:56,420
language, or maybe a back end 
language, or maybe Python. 

244
00:11:56,420 --> 00:11:59,020
You don't really have 
components, so if you're used to

245
00:11:59,020 --> 00:12:01,380
reacting, taking components, 
then it's really hard to change 

246
00:12:01,380 --> 00:12:04,580
your mindset into thinking into 
functions or thinking into 

247
00:12:04,580 --> 00:12:06,720
objects. 
You get that? 

248
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,440
I mean, they're all, they're all
tools, right? 

249
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,920
Either a language or a certain 
way of doing it. 

250
00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,080
It's all a tool. 
And probably in a boot camp they

251
00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,240
show you the box of tools, maybe
not even necessarily how to use 

252
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,120
it or how to use it in a certain
way. 

253
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,240
Yeah, definitely. 
But you can always use it in 

254
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:22,840
different ways. 
And I like that you mentioned 

255
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,920
trying to step out of what you 
already know in exploring a new 

256
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,720
language, because the way you 
use it might be completely 

257
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,240
different than the one you're 
used to. 

258
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,280
And then you can also just pick 
one of the tools that's most apt

259
00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,600
for the job instead of using a 
hammer for every job, basically.

260
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,200
Yeah, it's also really 
confronting. 

261
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,400
So I mean if I tried out some 
Python, I tried out some Java, 

262
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,600
but if you ask me today to maybe
run a JavaScript or get some 

263
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,720
Kotlin, then probably have no 
idea how to do it. 

264
00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,160
So it also helps change your 
mindset a bit. 

265
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,000
Like you think you're really 
good at something and then you 

266
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,520
try it slightly different but 
maybe a different tool. 

267
00:12:58,090 --> 00:13:00,650
And then suddenly you feel like 
you don't really know what 

268
00:13:00,650 --> 00:13:02,650
you're doing. 
A friend of mine recently told 

269
00:13:02,650 --> 00:13:06,850
me a funny comparison. 
So he's a hockey player. 

270
00:13:07,450 --> 00:13:10,090
And he told me, especially all 
hockey players have different 

271
00:13:10,090 --> 00:13:12,650
hockey sticks. 
So I played soccer when I was 

272
00:13:12,650 --> 00:13:15,170
younger. 
Apparently there are way 

273
00:13:15,170 --> 00:13:17,490
different hockey sticks, and 
every player is on preference. 

274
00:13:17,850 --> 00:13:20,170
Some halter stick really low, 
some halt them really low. 

275
00:13:22,130 --> 00:13:25,410
And if you would look at, like 
the Dutch team for hockey, they 

276
00:13:25,410 --> 00:13:27,210
all have different sticks and 
they all hold them slightly 

277
00:13:27,210 --> 00:13:28,250
different. 
OK. 

278
00:13:28,330 --> 00:13:30,850
So it also shows that no matter 
what profession you're doing, 

279
00:13:31,290 --> 00:13:33,850
you still need to have some 
diversification and you need to 

280
00:13:33,850 --> 00:13:36,770
have some different tools or 
methods. 

281
00:13:36,770 --> 00:13:38,730
And then it could still be good 
in what you're doing, Yeah. 

282
00:13:38,850 --> 00:13:40,890
But it could be different than 
the person sitting next to you. 

283
00:13:41,130 --> 00:13:44,450
Yeah, I never knew that. 
I like the hockey analogy in 

284
00:13:44,450 --> 00:13:45,850
that. 
I mean, you can have a tool, but

285
00:13:45,850 --> 00:13:50,010
the way you use it is how you 
are most effective basically, 

286
00:13:50,410 --> 00:13:53,100
and it can be a personal trait. 
Yeah, and if you go back to 

287
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:56,540
sports, if you look at Fader, 
he's like 40 something now and 

288
00:13:56,540 --> 00:13:58,740
he's still one of the better 
tennis players. 

289
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:01,460
If you look at his styles over 
the years, I think he has a 

290
00:14:01,460 --> 00:14:03,340
career of like 20 years or maybe
more. 

291
00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:07,460
He actually changed it. 
So first, I think now his back 

292
00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:09,780
end is really good, but first 
his fore end was really good. 

293
00:14:09,780 --> 00:14:12,780
So you keep changing over time 
because also his body changes 

294
00:14:12,780 --> 00:14:15,540
and mindset changes. 
And for developer and engineer 

295
00:14:15,540 --> 00:14:17,540
it could be the same, like you 
get older, you get more 

296
00:14:17,540 --> 00:14:18,980
knowledge about different 
frameworks. 

297
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,600
And in the end you need to make 
sure that you use the knowledge 

298
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,680
you already have to apply to 
newer things in order to stay 

299
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,320
but relevant as one side a 
diagram about developers being 

300
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,360
most productive. 
And I think it went up like this

301
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,560
and then somewhere around 3540 
it actually went down because 

302
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,240
people either got too much 
experience to learn new tools. 

303
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,240
Also the private lives changed 
like in the beginning of all 

304
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,000
this time. 
And then maybe you get children,

305
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,920
or you buy a house, or you get 
different hobbies, more 

306
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,160
commitments. 
More commitments and then also 

307
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,960
with experience comes more 
responsibility. 

308
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,200
Yeah. 
So I think it also changes for 

309
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,120
you as an engineer like the 
older you get, the more you sort

310
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,600
of shift away from really coding
and also more trying into 

311
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,720
architecture or maybe management
or all these sort of things 

312
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,880
surrounding your job. 
Yeah, I mean that gets into kind

313
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,790
of the name or the verb, 
developer or programmer or 

314
00:15:11,790 --> 00:15:16,110
engineer, whatever, that it's 
evolving so much more than just 

315
00:15:16,110 --> 00:15:18,990
sitting behind the keyboard and 
just bumming out a bunch of 

316
00:15:18,990 --> 00:15:19,790
code. 
Basically. 

317
00:15:20,830 --> 00:15:23,510
I think most of the time 
engineers are not really coding.

318
00:15:23,710 --> 00:15:26,830
They're either researching, 
learning, knowledge sharing, or 

319
00:15:26,830 --> 00:15:29,350
just figuring out which option 
is the best one to take. 

320
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:33,390
And then doing the actual work 
is actually not that much in 

321
00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:36,150
compared to all the preparation 
to do the right thing basically.

322
00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:39,460
And I think I don't know how it 
was previously, but I think it 

323
00:15:39,460 --> 00:15:41,780
was just more and more coding in
general. 

324
00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:46,940
Well, it's different I think if 
you like the way people look at 

325
00:15:46,940 --> 00:15:51,100
the words developer and 
engineer, I think developer at 

326
00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:53,140
least. 
Not that I agree or disagree, 

327
00:15:53,140 --> 00:15:55,300
but I think a developer is 
someone that creates something, 

328
00:15:55,660 --> 00:15:57,860
and I think an engineer is 
something that creates something

329
00:15:57,860 --> 00:15:59,940
foundational. 
So maybe a new programmer 

330
00:15:59,940 --> 00:16:02,460
language, or maybe starts 
thinking about what kind of 

331
00:16:02,460 --> 00:16:05,220
database should you use? 
How does it work in? 

332
00:16:05,930 --> 00:16:07,650
Or statue arrays. 
And a developer would probably 

333
00:16:07,650 --> 00:16:11,770
just pick a database, implement 
it, create an API, and so forth.

334
00:16:12,130 --> 00:16:15,130
So I think that's sort of the 
common way people think about it

335
00:16:15,130 --> 00:16:18,050
now, which you also see if you 
look at jobs for developers, you

336
00:16:18,050 --> 00:16:22,890
often see people don't already 
have needed computer science 

337
00:16:22,890 --> 00:16:25,130
education for engineers. 
People often say you need to 

338
00:16:25,130 --> 00:16:27,450
have foundational computer 
science experience. 

339
00:16:27,450 --> 00:16:30,210
You need to know how different 
languages work, how a computer 

340
00:16:30,210 --> 00:16:32,810
works inside. 
You need to have free high level

341
00:16:32,810 --> 00:16:36,310
or low level code experience. 
So if you look at it this way, 

342
00:16:36,310 --> 00:16:40,230
then probably 20 years ago, all 
developers were engineers and 

343
00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:42,990
all engineers were developers. 
Yeah, because if you did in 

344
00:16:42,990 --> 00:16:45,390
studio computer science, you 
probably didn't know how to use 

345
00:16:45,390 --> 00:16:47,870
a computer or how to program 
things exactly. 

346
00:16:48,270 --> 00:16:50,750
I never, I mean I use those 
words interchangeably. 

347
00:16:51,030 --> 00:16:53,190
But I have seen kind of what you
mentioned in that one. 

348
00:16:53,190 --> 00:16:56,710
It's a developer. 
It's more of a get done attitude

349
00:16:56,710 --> 00:17:01,670
basically, and it might be more 
based on the organization that's

350
00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:04,270
actually asking for a certain 
set of skills. 

351
00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:07,020
I think when you're in a 
startup, it's more of that. 

352
00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:09,859
Get it done, get the feedback 
fast, The proof of concept out 

353
00:17:09,859 --> 00:17:13,500
there on MVP and seeing if it 
actually works before you can 

354
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:16,099
scale it. 
And more of the engineers may be

355
00:17:16,099 --> 00:17:19,380
more in bigger organizations 
when it's more about long term 

356
00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:23,420
and about working together and 
maintainability and longevity of

357
00:17:23,420 --> 00:17:26,900
the thing you're building. 
And if you go that route, you 

358
00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:30,980
need to know more than just 
getting it done, basically. 

359
00:17:31,810 --> 00:17:34,210
Yeah, definitely. 
But yeah, I'm still not sure if 

360
00:17:34,210 --> 00:17:37,730
I actually agree with the words 
developer and engineer, but this

361
00:17:37,730 --> 00:17:40,090
is what you read on Twitter a 
lot, or in other communities. 

362
00:17:40,090 --> 00:17:42,850
Like people sort of try to make 
a distinction between people 

363
00:17:42,850 --> 00:17:44,770
that have foundational 
experience through computer 

364
00:17:44,770 --> 00:17:48,850
science education compared to 
people that just know how to get

365
00:17:48,850 --> 00:17:52,010
things done. 
But yeah, I'm not sure if the 

366
00:17:52,010 --> 00:17:54,890
comparison really should be 
there, because in the end, if 

367
00:17:54,890 --> 00:17:57,090
you didn't study computer 
science, you can still get the 

368
00:17:57,090 --> 00:18:00,130
foundational experience to work 
experience to trying our 

369
00:18:00,130 --> 00:18:03,180
different languages to. 
Working on tons of projects, 

370
00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:06,300
working for different companies 
and also having good mentors. 

371
00:18:06,340 --> 00:18:09,380
I mean, if you did a boot camp 
two years ago, you started 

372
00:18:09,380 --> 00:18:12,380
working for a company, you got a
lot of responsibility, you work 

373
00:18:12,380 --> 00:18:15,580
a lot with maybe the senior 
members or the Ctos, and still 

374
00:18:15,580 --> 00:18:17,900
you can get that foundational 
experience without having 

375
00:18:17,980 --> 00:18:20,780
computer science backgrounds. 
But as long as people really 

376
00:18:20,780 --> 00:18:23,700
keep making distinction between 
engineers and developers, it's 

377
00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:26,260
also really hard to get out of 
that stigma of being a 

378
00:18:26,260 --> 00:18:27,700
developer. 
Because maybe you only did a 

379
00:18:27,700 --> 00:18:30,900
boot camp, or maybe you touch 
yourself how to code and then. 

380
00:18:31,410 --> 00:18:34,090
To me, it was 14 years ago. 
But if it was two years ago for 

381
00:18:34,090 --> 00:18:36,530
you, probably you'll be in a 
stigma for the next five years 

382
00:18:36,530 --> 00:18:38,250
or something. 
Yeah, until you actually have to

383
00:18:38,250 --> 00:18:42,090
work experience to prove that 
you're in their eyes, not just a

384
00:18:42,090 --> 00:18:45,690
developer but also an engineer. 
Yeah, and I mean, even with that

385
00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:49,130
work experience, some companies 
don't really test that work 

386
00:18:49,130 --> 00:18:51,290
experience in kind of an 
interview process. 

387
00:18:51,290 --> 00:18:54,810
For example, you might need to 
solve an algorithm, but in 

388
00:18:54,810 --> 00:18:57,170
practice you're never gonna do 
that because you're building an 

389
00:18:57,170 --> 00:19:01,570
actual product and the solving 
of the algorithm might be a very

390
00:19:01,570 --> 00:19:04,650
small part of the bigger hole. 
Basically, the companies are 

391
00:19:04,650 --> 00:19:06,930
really fixated on testing those 
skills. 

392
00:19:06,930 --> 00:19:09,210
In particular. 
I don't know where that comes 

393
00:19:09,210 --> 00:19:10,410
from though. 
I think it's. 

394
00:19:10,410 --> 00:19:13,610
More it goes back to the thing I
told you about university. 

395
00:19:13,610 --> 00:19:17,010
Like you learn a lot of things. 
Yeah, you learn how to structure

396
00:19:17,010 --> 00:19:20,450
things with certain mindset. 
But for the rest of my life, I 

397
00:19:20,450 --> 00:19:22,330
probably will never write an 
essay again. 

398
00:19:22,330 --> 00:19:25,420
Or. 
Need to do research about stock 

399
00:19:25,420 --> 00:19:27,940
companies or these kind of 
things and things like that in 

400
00:19:27,940 --> 00:19:28,860
economics. 
Yeah. 

401
00:19:29,140 --> 00:19:32,500
So I think it goes back to that 
you sort of learn a way of 

402
00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:35,980
thinking or how to structure 
things and then if you learn it 

403
00:19:35,980 --> 00:19:37,940
through computer science, then 
you could do it later on. 

404
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:41,780
So probably their idea is if you
know how to create an algorithm,

405
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:44,540
you probably also know how to 
make a switch statement in order

406
00:19:44,540 --> 00:19:46,140
to decide which component to 
render. 

407
00:19:46,260 --> 00:19:48,980
Yeah, that makes sense. 
But then you're kind of 

408
00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:52,150
filtering out people that don't 
have that experience necessarily

409
00:19:52,190 --> 00:19:55,190
or they need to specifically 
learn about algorithms because 

410
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:59,430
that's being tested just to pass
the bar and get hired to then 

411
00:19:59,750 --> 00:20:01,190
use their own skill set, 
basically. 

412
00:20:01,230 --> 00:20:03,750
Yeah, definitely. 
And I think if you just started 

413
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:07,230
coding, if you did a boot camp 
or followed some online course 

414
00:20:07,230 --> 00:20:10,190
and you start working at 
Facebook, working on some tiny 

415
00:20:10,190 --> 00:20:12,830
compiler or some tiny component.
And probably it's also not the 

416
00:20:12,830 --> 00:20:14,750
job in which you will learn the 
most. 

417
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:17,070
Yeah. 
I think especially if you have 

418
00:20:17,070 --> 00:20:19,550
little experience, then it will 
be really useful to work at a 

419
00:20:19,550 --> 00:20:24,030
startup, work at a smaller 
company, maybe even freelance, 

420
00:20:24,030 --> 00:20:26,710
which is also a bit scary 
because I know people that went 

421
00:20:26,710 --> 00:20:28,990
to a boot camp, then started 
freelancing. 

422
00:20:29,390 --> 00:20:31,950
And often you really see in 
cloud quality that they've been 

423
00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:34,750
working on their own because 
especially those first years, 

424
00:20:35,150 --> 00:20:37,190
you really need some guidance. 
You really need a company that 

425
00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:39,670
helps you, or a mentor that 
helps you or. 

426
00:20:40,190 --> 00:20:42,190
That feedback. 
Yeah, really, the feedback. 

427
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:44,970
Yeah, and that makes sense. 
It's funny that you mentioned 

428
00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:47,850
Facebook and kind of the bigger 
organizations, because currently

429
00:20:47,850 --> 00:20:51,170
the job market is pretty tight 
when it comes to developers. 

430
00:20:51,690 --> 00:20:54,410
Tight, meaning that there's just
not enough developers or 

431
00:20:54,410 --> 00:20:57,410
engineers, whichever label you 
want to use basically. 

432
00:20:58,050 --> 00:21:01,130
Yet the bigger companies are 
creating more and more jobs and 

433
00:21:01,130 --> 00:21:04,050
more and more options for 
developers to go there instead 

434
00:21:04,050 --> 00:21:06,730
of the smaller organizations. 
You can name your startup or 

435
00:21:06,730 --> 00:21:09,970
you're kind of medium 
organization and there's a 

436
00:21:09,970 --> 00:21:12,810
difference in pay and kind of 
skill set required. 

437
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,160
And I think people are more and 
more navigating to the big 

438
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,680
companies in that aspect, which 
is quite a shame. 

439
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,320
Yeah. 
Yeah, it's, I don't know, maybe 

440
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,240
it's also the circle of life. 
I mean, you start somewhere 

441
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:26,840
small, then you go to bigger 
companies. 

442
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,600
And in the end, something I do 
see it as bigger companies is 

443
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,560
people also start leaving maybe 
around the 40s or something to 

444
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,280
either start a new company 
themselves or start working for 

445
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,900
a smaller company. 
Yeah, but it is a real problem. 

446
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:42,420
I mean Facebook wants to create 
10,000 jobs in Europe, not 

447
00:21:43,060 --> 00:21:45,420
necessarily the Netherlands, but
I do think they have a a bigger 

448
00:21:46,820 --> 00:21:49,060
and bigger office here. 
So there could be a big chance. 

449
00:21:49,060 --> 00:21:50,980
A lot of these people need to 
come from the Netherlands. 

450
00:21:51,540 --> 00:21:54,380
So I am kind of worried where 
we're able to get like this 

451
00:21:54,380 --> 00:21:56,660
10,000 engineers. 
You already said in the 

452
00:21:56,660 --> 00:22:00,620
Netherlands, I think 50% of the 
developer jobs that we have are 

453
00:22:00,620 --> 00:22:03,100
engineering jobs. 
They really can't find someone 

454
00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:04,380
because there aren't enough 
people here. 

455
00:22:04,380 --> 00:22:07,350
So I work with companies in the 
past and we've got people all 

456
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:10,190
over Europe or even the world to
start working for us in the 

457
00:22:10,190 --> 00:22:13,190
Netherlands. 
And then you have to compete 

458
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:15,070
with just other startups or 
other scaleups. 

459
00:22:15,070 --> 00:22:17,870
As soon as you start competing 
with bigger companies, it's 

460
00:22:17,870 --> 00:22:20,430
really hard to do it. 
So you really need to find 

461
00:22:20,430 --> 00:22:22,790
people that want to work for a 
smaller company, that really 

462
00:22:22,790 --> 00:22:25,750
want to learn how things go to 
certain smaller company. 

463
00:22:27,030 --> 00:22:29,150
But then they also might just 
leave after two years. 

464
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:31,990
Yeah, I think that's really hard
for a company to. 

465
00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:34,940
Because it's not necessarily 
about pay. 

466
00:22:34,940 --> 00:22:37,220
It's about what you're doing, 
whom you're doing it with, the 

467
00:22:37,220 --> 00:22:39,580
environment around it, and 
probably the way that you're 

468
00:22:39,580 --> 00:22:41,700
doing it and how much you can 
learn. 

469
00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:45,100
Especially if you're starting 
out and this is your first job, 

470
00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:47,490
basically, yeah. 
So your career is also an 

471
00:22:47,490 --> 00:22:50,290
investment that people sometimes
forget because you want to see 

472
00:22:50,290 --> 00:22:52,890
immediate return. 
So if you invest in stocks, you 

473
00:22:52,890 --> 00:22:55,370
know you put money in and then 
you expect it to be more in five

474
00:22:55,370 --> 00:22:57,570
years. 
But the biggest investment is 

475
00:22:57,570 --> 00:22:59,890
your career. 
So if you start investing your 

476
00:22:59,890 --> 00:23:03,050
time now to learn to code, to 
improve your coding, and maybe 

477
00:23:03,050 --> 00:23:07,650
you're making like let's say you
would make 10,000 today. 

478
00:23:08,050 --> 00:23:10,690
Maybe if you start investing in 
yourself or they start writing 

479
00:23:10,690 --> 00:23:12,850
tutorials. 
Start following courses online, 

480
00:23:13,450 --> 00:23:16,660
try to find good guidance. 
Maybe you can make 100,000 in 

481
00:23:16,660 --> 00:23:18,740
two years and then that's 
probably a bigger investment 

482
00:23:18,740 --> 00:23:21,380
than invest in stocks today. 
Yeah, that's quite the bump 

483
00:23:21,740 --> 00:23:23,900
actually. 
I'm wondering because you 

484
00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:26,780
touched upon freelancing 
initially in that when you're 

485
00:23:26,780 --> 00:23:29,500
starting out, it's probably good
to start at a company, get the 

486
00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:32,700
feedback before you if you want 
to do that, actually pursue that

487
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:34,340
career. 
But when do you think is kind of

488
00:23:34,340 --> 00:23:39,020
the time then or the sweet spot 
to move into freelancing really 

489
00:23:39,020 --> 00:23:40,580
depends. 
So I think you should only move 

490
00:23:40,580 --> 00:23:45,540
into freelancing if you feel 
your you have enough experience 

491
00:23:45,540 --> 00:23:48,140
in order to work independently. 
You also want to work 

492
00:23:48,140 --> 00:23:50,940
independently. 
I mean it is a bit different if 

493
00:23:50,940 --> 00:23:53,860
you were used to a company where
you would have drinks every 

494
00:23:53,860 --> 00:23:58,100
Friday evening where there would
be things for you organized. 

495
00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:01,460
I mean, if you go to freelancing
and you have no friends, you 

496
00:24:01,460 --> 00:24:03,300
don't like to work 
independently, then it would be 

497
00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:04,780
really strange to go into 
freelancing. 

498
00:24:04,780 --> 00:24:07,380
Exactly, yeah. 
So it really depends on what you

499
00:24:07,820 --> 00:24:09,660
want to achieve. 
I think freelancing is great if 

500
00:24:09,660 --> 00:24:13,470
you want to travel the world, 
you want to see other countries,

501
00:24:13,470 --> 00:24:17,670
you want to make products for 
different companies, that really

502
00:24:17,670 --> 00:24:19,270
makes sense. 
But I think a lot of people that

503
00:24:19,270 --> 00:24:21,830
go into freelancing after ID, 
they will make way more money 

504
00:24:22,150 --> 00:24:23,710
freelance than working for a 
company. 

505
00:24:24,150 --> 00:24:27,110
Well I think in the end if you 
look for the right companies, if

506
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:31,270
you make good career choices and
you have the proper guidance, 

507
00:24:31,270 --> 00:24:33,270
you will make more money in the 
end if you would have worked for

508
00:24:33,270 --> 00:24:35,230
a company than going to 
freelancing. 

509
00:24:35,230 --> 00:24:37,870
So it's I think it's a double 
edged Schwartz, and it really 

510
00:24:37,870 --> 00:24:42,170
depends on the person if you 
would make really make it 

511
00:24:42,170 --> 00:24:43,730
successful. 
Because I know people have been 

512
00:24:43,730 --> 00:24:46,650
to freelance and then they only 
wanted to sign contracts with 

513
00:24:46,650 --> 00:24:50,850
companies that could have them 
for one or two years at the 

514
00:24:50,850 --> 00:24:53,130
minimum. 
But then you're just freelancing

515
00:24:53,130 --> 00:24:54,810
for money. 
Probably not really freelancing 

516
00:24:54,810 --> 00:24:59,090
for really the flexibility. 
Yeah, I really like that answer 

517
00:24:59,090 --> 00:25:01,210
in that it is that double edged 
sword, right? 

518
00:25:01,210 --> 00:25:03,690
It can gain you a lot and then 
you have to give. 

519
00:25:03,690 --> 00:25:06,970
It's probably gonna be stressful
along the way, but it's really 

520
00:25:06,970 --> 00:25:08,650
dependent on the person that's 
doing it. 

521
00:25:09,470 --> 00:25:11,630
I think for some reason, because
the job market is so tight, 

522
00:25:11,630 --> 00:25:14,350
probably people are trying it 
out more and being like, well, I

523
00:25:14,350 --> 00:25:17,430
could probably earn more if I do
this my own rather than 

524
00:25:17,630 --> 00:25:20,150
filtering through the company 
and me just getting a chunk of 

525
00:25:20,150 --> 00:25:22,390
the cheese basically, yeah, 
definitely. 

526
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:25,550
But yeah, if we will go look at 
the job market, I think 

527
00:25:25,550 --> 00:25:26,910
freelancing is really the 
answer. 

528
00:25:27,470 --> 00:25:29,910
So for Net Lens, I think we just
need to change the mindset as 

529
00:25:29,910 --> 00:25:32,070
well to make sure there are more
developers, there are more 

530
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:34,790
engineers, there are more people
interested in technology. 

531
00:25:34,950 --> 00:25:37,640
Yeah, because in the end you see
things are changing. 

532
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,920
A recent article from a big 
Dutch bank, they did a research 

533
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,280
about the financial industry. 
So there are 30,000 people 

534
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,320
working in the financial 
industry and they will expect 

535
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,080
Look Chain will eat most of 
their jobs. 

536
00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:51,000
Exactly. 
So we have all those people that

537
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,280
are now sort of good paid, sort 
of highly educated and they need

538
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,600
to start, find other jobs. 
So they in the end maybe need to

539
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,150
start programming. 
They need to start either in the

540
00:26:00,150 --> 00:26:02,430
same blockchain, because maybe 
they have to use it in the job. 

541
00:26:02,590 --> 00:26:06,390
Yeah, or maybe even AI. 
Other research also show like 

542
00:26:07,150 --> 00:26:09,950
half of big companies in Anillas
are already starting AI. 

543
00:26:10,150 --> 00:26:13,110
Yeah, I think. 
Is that what you mean then, by 

544
00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:16,830
kind of changing the mindset in 
that you need to look around and

545
00:26:16,830 --> 00:26:19,550
see what's gonna happen with 
your future career and make a 

546
00:26:19,550 --> 00:26:20,870
kind of shift? 
Yeah. 

547
00:26:20,870 --> 00:26:23,390
So if I would ask most of my 
friends, they will all say, 

548
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:26,110
yeah, I don't really know how 
computers work in the end. 

549
00:26:26,110 --> 00:26:27,670
They're sitting behind a 
computer all day. 

550
00:26:27,950 --> 00:26:30,440
Absolutely. 
And people are also afraid maybe

551
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,200
robots will either jobs or maybe
algorithms will take away our 

552
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,640
jobs. 
And I think as long as we don't 

553
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,200
understand the algorithms, yeah,
they probably will take our 

554
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,960
jobs. 
Because if we don't know what 

555
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,160
the algorithms are, if we don't 
know how they would work. 

556
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:45,640
But our companies are 
introducing algorithms, they are

557
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,840
simplifying a job. 
They don't really know what 

558
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,520
those algorithms are doing, but 
they do take away maybe the 

559
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,120
harder part of your jobs. 
Yeah, that is something to worry

560
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:54,960
about. 
Yeah. 

561
00:26:55,470 --> 00:26:58,070
I'm wondering in how far you 
need to understand what's going 

562
00:26:58,070 --> 00:27:00,430
on, right? 
There can be some mundane things

563
00:27:00,430 --> 00:27:02,710
that you're doing and those can 
be automated. 

564
00:27:02,750 --> 00:27:06,670
Rather they should be automated.
But maybe what you're doing, if 

565
00:27:06,670 --> 00:27:11,190
it's a real core thing that can 
be done by an AI, how much do 

566
00:27:11,190 --> 00:27:13,430
you need to understand about 
what's going on and the 

567
00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:14,710
algorithms behind it, do you 
think? 

568
00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:17,710
Well, I think it differs. 
So if you go to lower school, 

569
00:27:17,710 --> 00:27:21,270
you need to, you have calculus, 
you need to do everything by 

570
00:27:21,270 --> 00:27:23,670
hand, Yeah. 
So you need to define things. 

571
00:27:23,670 --> 00:27:26,420
You need to sum up failures and 
then if you go to high school 

572
00:27:26,420 --> 00:27:30,540
you probably get your calculator
and then it can do it for you. 

573
00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:33,380
And then when you start working 
you start using excel in order 

574
00:27:33,380 --> 00:27:36,420
to make all these things because
there is more and more data but 

575
00:27:36,420 --> 00:27:39,340
still you know how to some 
things up. 

576
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:42,700
At least I sometimes do it still
by hand, just to make sure you 

577
00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:45,340
know how things work later on. 
You have a device which you 

578
00:27:45,340 --> 00:27:48,460
still need to type in the actual
values, and now if a computer do

579
00:27:48,460 --> 00:27:51,660
it for you, I think the real 
scary part would be if you would

580
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:54,300
Add all these values, or maybe 
spreadsheet into a computer and 

581
00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:56,900
a computer will give you a 
result without you knowing how 

582
00:27:56,900 --> 00:27:59,340
the results calculate. 
Yeah, I think if you're at that 

583
00:27:59,340 --> 00:28:02,860
stage then things are going 
wrong and you should know more 

584
00:28:02,860 --> 00:28:04,900
about what the machine is 
actually doing for you. 

585
00:28:05,140 --> 00:28:09,460
Yeah, man, I love that analogy 
because it hits home so well. 

586
00:28:10,380 --> 00:28:12,740
Coming from just elementary 
school and moving into high 

587
00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:13,660
school. 
Yeah, you're right. 

588
00:28:13,660 --> 00:28:16,620
We did everything by hand and 
now you're coming from a 

589
00:28:16,620 --> 00:28:19,100
situation where you are doing 
everything by hand. 

590
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,840
And all of a sudden stuff get 
added behind the screen and all 

591
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,160
of a sudden it's done 
automatically. 

592
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,320
And that magical part is weird 
if you see it for the first 

593
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,080
time. 
But when you actually understand

594
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,320
what happens behind the screen, 
that's where you can actually 

595
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,240
make use of it more effectively.
Yeah, definitely. 

596
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,480
And I think it will also help 
us. 

597
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,480
I mean at some point if you look
at the job market, if you look 

598
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,920
at all the companies that are 
active in the net lens in 

599
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,800
different countries, at some 
point I think we need to say 

600
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,280
like this is what a machine can 
do. 

601
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,440
And here it kind of stops. 
If you look at also some issues 

602
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,560
with the net lens with tax 
payments or money people would 

603
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,640
get if they had a low income, if
the machines would do all this 

604
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,240
work for us, then there would be
no human factor in it. 

605
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,550
I mean, a machine could say you 
don't get this this amount of 

606
00:29:07,550 --> 00:29:09,390
money because your income was 
higher one year. 

607
00:29:09,670 --> 00:29:11,630
Well, maybe a person that looked
through the files could have 

608
00:29:11,630 --> 00:29:14,870
say, okay. 
There's like a real true issue 

609
00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:17,790
why this person had a higher 
income this year, so he or she 

610
00:29:17,790 --> 00:29:19,870
should still get the money. 
Yeah, exactly. 

611
00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:24,030
It's that human factor and that 
just human judgment, basically. 

612
00:29:24,030 --> 00:29:27,590
That factor's in there, yeah. 
I think we can have machines 

613
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:30,350
that do a lot of our work for 
us, make it easier, but still we

614
00:29:30,350 --> 00:29:31,550
need to understand how they 
work. 

615
00:29:31,790 --> 00:29:34,430
Yeah, yeah, for sure. 
And that's hard, I think. 

616
00:29:35,390 --> 00:29:38,670
Moving back to kind of 
self-taught engineering, when I 

617
00:29:38,670 --> 00:29:41,990
started out there was a lot of 
kind of incubator programs in 

618
00:29:41,990 --> 00:29:44,430
where you do kind of a boot camp
and then you get placed by a 

619
00:29:44,430 --> 00:29:46,710
company. 
But it was always a duration and

620
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:48,310
kind of a one or two year 
contract. 

621
00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:52,190
So rather than doing that, I 
choose to go abroad. 

622
00:29:52,190 --> 00:29:55,630
I moved into operations and 
eventually I got a bit. 

623
00:29:57,380 --> 00:30:00,380
What's a good word for this? 
I got a bit frustrated in that I

624
00:30:00,380 --> 00:30:02,540
knew what I needed to change, 
but I needed to go to the 

625
00:30:02,540 --> 00:30:05,460
developer to change it. 
So then I pursued a career in 

626
00:30:05,780 --> 00:30:08,580
software development basically. 
Yeah, but those incubator 

627
00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:12,060
programs, I think they are 
actually doing quite well in 

628
00:30:12,060 --> 00:30:15,500
that they pick up people that I 
wanna shift career or that are 

629
00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:17,460
fresh out of college and just 
give them the practical 

630
00:30:17,460 --> 00:30:20,620
experience rather than having 
them either teach themselves or 

631
00:30:20,620 --> 00:30:23,740
go on the career themselves and 
kind of laying the tracks for 

632
00:30:23,740 --> 00:30:27,070
them already to. 
Be a data scientist or an actual

633
00:30:27,070 --> 00:30:29,270
engineer there, Yeah. 
What's your take on that? 

634
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:31,350
Do you think it's an effective 
way of doing it? 

635
00:30:31,790 --> 00:30:33,870
Because it's kind of a boot camp
and then you get placed at a 

636
00:30:33,870 --> 00:30:36,030
company. 
I think it's a really good way 

637
00:30:36,030 --> 00:30:38,470
because you know you will get a 
job in the end. 

638
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:41,710
The company is also open to hire
junior developers. 

639
00:30:41,710 --> 00:30:44,550
Sometimes you see companies that
are open to hire people that are

640
00:30:44,550 --> 00:30:47,070
self-taught. 
They don't want to hire people 

641
00:30:47,070 --> 00:30:48,190
that have been through boot 
camp. 

642
00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:51,740
And I think companies that 
commit to the boot camp or the 

643
00:30:51,740 --> 00:30:54,180
incubator or whatsoever, they 
will actually know that they 

644
00:30:54,180 --> 00:30:58,580
will get a person that they need
to really educate and also help 

645
00:30:58,580 --> 00:31:01,620
because that's also a problem if
you come from a boot camp and a 

646
00:31:01,620 --> 00:31:04,500
company hires you and they will 
assume you can go, you can 

647
00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:06,420
create websites or APIs for 
them. 

648
00:31:06,500 --> 00:31:07,900
Yeah. 
I mean they should also 

649
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:10,860
understand that you will still 
need guidance for the first few 

650
00:31:10,860 --> 00:31:13,910
years and it you won't be as 
predictive as someone that has 

651
00:31:13,910 --> 00:31:15,350
two or three years work 
experience. 

652
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:17,270
Exactly. 
They can't just let you swim and

653
00:31:17,270 --> 00:31:19,350
expect you to make it out. 
Some people are gonna make it 

654
00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:21,190
out, but some people need help 
along the way. 

655
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:23,110
Yeah, definitely. 
But some frustration I do have 

656
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:26,550
like all the boot camps, all the
ways to educate yourself out 

657
00:31:26,550 --> 00:31:29,790
there is that there isn't really
any guidance or some sort of 

658
00:31:29,790 --> 00:31:32,390
quality assurance that you 
really know a boot camp is good.

659
00:31:32,430 --> 00:31:35,550
You really know certain courses 
are good. 

660
00:31:35,550 --> 00:31:36,790
I mean, there are online 
reviews. 

661
00:31:36,790 --> 00:31:39,790
There are reviews by companies, 
but you never really see how in 

662
00:31:39,790 --> 00:31:41,750
the end people are really happy 
with the boot camp, if they 

663
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:44,510
really learn things there, or if
they really learned how to do 

664
00:31:44,510 --> 00:31:46,990
things at the company. 
Yeah, I mean, the boot camp is 

665
00:31:46,990 --> 00:31:48,470
gonna preach the boot camp, 
obviously. 

666
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:51,750
Like, this is the best thing, 
but there's so many out there. 

667
00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:54,790
Even if you're talking about 
online courses, I can, I can 

668
00:31:54,790 --> 00:31:58,470
Google a tech course or a React 
course and there's hundreds 

669
00:31:58,470 --> 00:32:00,910
probably that are gonna teach me
a specific thing. 

670
00:32:01,310 --> 00:32:04,270
But then which one is gonna be a
good one for my career down the 

671
00:32:04,270 --> 00:32:05,550
line? 
I think it's hard to choose. 

672
00:32:06,090 --> 00:32:07,890
Yeah, definitely. 
And of course a different 

673
00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:10,410
flavor. 
So me, myself, I really like to 

674
00:32:11,250 --> 00:32:14,450
learn by example, or maybe other
people really like to deep dive 

675
00:32:14,450 --> 00:32:16,650
into theory and then do an 
example later. 

676
00:32:17,170 --> 00:32:18,570
So it also depends on your 
mindset. 

677
00:32:18,570 --> 00:32:21,250
But I think there should be a 
bit more curation and there's so

678
00:32:21,250 --> 00:32:23,330
much advice out there. 
There's so much ways to do 

679
00:32:23,330 --> 00:32:26,650
things out there. 
If you go to Twitter an example,

680
00:32:27,170 --> 00:32:29,450
and you ask for like a good 
programming course, you will 

681
00:32:29,450 --> 00:32:32,650
find like thousands of them and 
people start answering different

682
00:32:32,650 --> 00:32:34,210
questions. 
And I can understand if you're 

683
00:32:34,210 --> 00:32:36,710
new to this, it's also really 
confusing because you don't 

684
00:32:36,710 --> 00:32:40,950
really know what to look for, 
what people to look for, what 

685
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:43,070
kind of courses, what 
technologies you would need. 

686
00:32:43,710 --> 00:32:47,750
So I think we need some more of 
a guidance in the Netherlands 

687
00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:50,190
and the rest of the world. 
Like how do you know you can 

688
00:32:50,190 --> 00:32:52,910
teach the program? 
What kind of courses do you need

689
00:32:52,910 --> 00:32:54,310
to follow? 
What kind of boot camps are 

690
00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:56,270
good? 
What kind of companies really 

691
00:32:56,270 --> 00:33:00,230
want to mentor junior developers
in order to become successful? 

692
00:33:00,670 --> 00:33:03,780
And yeah, because probably most 
companies will say they will 

693
00:33:03,780 --> 00:33:06,540
help you in first steps in your 
career in the end. 

694
00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:09,100
They also need to make money. 
So they need to make sure that 

695
00:33:09,100 --> 00:33:12,100
you're actually being productive
from maybe day one, maybe not 

696
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:14,220
day zero. 
Yeah, it is something to 

697
00:33:14,540 --> 00:33:15,540
consider. 
Yeah. 

698
00:33:16,180 --> 00:33:18,340
I mean, I don't think companies 
have a choice nowadays. 

699
00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:21,820
They should pick up the young 
talent and make them basically 

700
00:33:21,820 --> 00:33:24,780
flourish throughout their career
a bit more since it is a tight 

701
00:33:24,780 --> 00:33:26,310
job market. 
I don't think. 

702
00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:28,550
Yeah, I think companies don't 
really have a choice, but I 

703
00:33:28,550 --> 00:33:30,830
think bigger companies should 
make a choice for themselves 

704
00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:32,270
that they invest in younger 
people. 

705
00:33:32,390 --> 00:33:34,790
Yeah, instead of trying to get 
all the more experienced 

706
00:33:34,790 --> 00:33:38,430
engineers from startups or skill
ups that are probably shaped for

707
00:33:38,430 --> 00:33:39,950
a larger part by those 
engineers. 

708
00:33:40,110 --> 00:33:42,870
Yeah, exactly. 
And even the organizations that 

709
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:45,390
you mentioned that are not 
willing to hire self-taught 

710
00:33:45,390 --> 00:33:48,030
engineers, I don't think that's 
necessarily a good thing. 

711
00:33:48,030 --> 00:33:50,950
And I think that much that 
should change in that it doesn't

712
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:52,430
matter if you're self-taught or 
not. 

713
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,400
You're still gonna be 
continuously learning throughout

714
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,800
your journey anyway, cuz 
technology is changing all the 

715
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,800
time. 
You need to pick up either a new

716
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,720
framework or a new tool or a new
sauce product that everyone's 

717
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,120
using. 
Yeah, definitely. 

718
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,240
And I think if you taught 
yourself how to program or 

719
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,520
follow the boot camp, you're 
probably also way more flexible 

720
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,120
on this. 
So one of the issues is indeed 

721
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,120
sort of engineering is sort of a
black box for a lot of business 

722
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,840
people. 
So yeah, they know they would 

723
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,000
need an engineer or developer to
create the website, but they 

724
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,600
have no idea how to do it 
themselves. 

725
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:23,639
Yeah. 
So if I was in business and I 

726
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:26,199
have no prior development 
experience and I had to choose 

727
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:29,000
between one person with four 
years experience and one with 

728
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,120
zero, yeah, I would also 
probably go for the four years 

729
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,080
of experience because to me, 
it's really a black box. 

730
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,239
I have no idea what they're 
doing. 

731
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,320
Yeah. 
So probably the person with four

732
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:38,920
years experience really knows 
what they're doing. 

733
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,199
So that will be probably a 
better guess. 

734
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,920
Yeah, well, maybe the person 
with serious experience can get 

735
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,880
your product done faster because
the person isn't really thinking

736
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,280
about architecture things, about
how to structure things for the 

737
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,040
long run. 
Maybe there's a different right 

738
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,679
test. 
So it really depends on what 

739
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:56,120
you're building. 
If you need like the more 

740
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,640
experienced person or less 
experienced person, yeah. 

741
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,840
But as long as the black box is 
there, it's really hard for 

742
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,640
business people also to make 
this decision. 

743
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,480
Yeah, I mean, at some point it's
gonna come down to trust as 

744
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,740
well. 
And it's really hard to gain 

745
00:35:09,740 --> 00:35:11,660
that trust. 
I think when you don't have your

746
00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:16,220
past experience in the series of
experience versus the 4th, 1:00.

747
00:35:17,260 --> 00:35:20,100
So then it's even harder to make
a case for what you should hire 

748
00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:22,580
me versus the other person, 
basically, Yeah, And easy. 

749
00:35:22,620 --> 00:35:24,740
I like what you say about going 
into operations. 

750
00:35:24,740 --> 00:35:27,980
Like you knew how to develop a 
bit probably, And then you went 

751
00:35:27,980 --> 00:35:30,500
into operations because you felt
it was better for you. 

752
00:35:30,500 --> 00:35:32,180
But then you went back to 
software development. 

753
00:35:32,220 --> 00:35:35,460
Yeah, I can understand if you 
stayed in operations then maybe 

754
00:35:35,460 --> 00:35:38,290
you would have thought about 
this the same like you know, 

755
00:35:38,290 --> 00:35:40,570
some development but not enough 
to actually make changes. 

756
00:35:40,570 --> 00:35:44,370
So probably you would put your 
trust in the people with more 

757
00:35:44,370 --> 00:35:46,050
experience. 
Exactly, Yeah. 

758
00:35:46,410 --> 00:35:49,370
And operations specifically is 
kind of a hard thing because 

759
00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:52,410
it's, I think that part is 
getting phased out a bit more. 

760
00:35:52,410 --> 00:35:55,450
It's moving towards the cloud 
more and that the cloud is just 

761
00:35:55,650 --> 00:35:58,370
doing a bunch of stuff that 
operations people used to do. 

762
00:35:58,370 --> 00:36:02,010
Basically, there's no longer a 
physical hardware or disk that's

763
00:36:02,010 --> 00:36:04,530
gonna get full when you're 
running in the cloud, cuz that's

764
00:36:04,530 --> 00:36:05,970
just gonna scale up 
automatically. 

765
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:07,790
Yeah. 
Yeah, definitely. 

766
00:36:09,150 --> 00:36:10,430
Yeah. 
But it would be interesting to 

767
00:36:10,430 --> 00:36:11,990
see how we can reduce this black
box. 

768
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:15,230
So if you look at current 
education and elements, I think 

769
00:36:15,230 --> 00:36:18,070
we're really teaching people to 
be unemployed in the future 

770
00:36:18,070 --> 00:36:20,150
because there's all these jobs 
that won't be there anymore. 

771
00:36:20,710 --> 00:36:23,350
So I think we need to make a 
shift early on, maybe even in 

772
00:36:23,350 --> 00:36:24,870
high school, maybe in lower 
school. 

773
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:28,310
We really need to teach people, 
like, if you're doing these 

774
00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:30,870
kinds of jobs, then maybe these 
jobs aren't there anymore in 10 

775
00:36:30,870 --> 00:36:33,750
or 20 or 30 years. 
So people maybe need to learn 

776
00:36:33,750 --> 00:36:36,770
how to program in in lower 
school, Maybe in high school. 

777
00:36:37,010 --> 00:36:39,410
Yeah. 
If I go back to my high school, 

778
00:36:39,410 --> 00:36:42,370
I think they tried to teach me 
how to program. 

779
00:36:42,370 --> 00:36:45,090
And at the end, the informatics 
course was just using paint 

780
00:36:45,530 --> 00:36:46,810
Okay. 
Using words. 

781
00:36:46,810 --> 00:36:48,570
Yeah. 
Well, it could be quite easy to 

782
00:36:48,610 --> 00:36:51,450
actually show me how to do 
certain stuff, maybe make a 

783
00:36:51,450 --> 00:36:54,410
small website with HTML. 
And then in the end, maybe I 

784
00:36:54,410 --> 00:36:57,130
would have decided earlier on I 
wanted to be an engineer instead

785
00:36:57,130 --> 00:36:58,970
of going into business. 
Yeah. 

786
00:36:59,750 --> 00:37:02,110
I mean, I'm two years younger 
than you, and I think way back 

787
00:37:02,110 --> 00:37:05,230
then they didn't really know how
to either teach or tackle 

788
00:37:05,230 --> 00:37:08,270
specific informatics courses. 
I think nowadays it's a bit 

789
00:37:08,270 --> 00:37:11,190
better. 
My brother's 18 now, so a bunch 

790
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:13,750
of years back he did an 
informatics course and there 

791
00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:16,510
they taught him Python And PHP 
and a bunch of stuff. 

792
00:37:16,990 --> 00:37:18,390
Yeah, so that. 
And it's also about the 

793
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:21,190
teachers, right? 
So like if you have a 50 someone

794
00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:25,990
person that doesn't know how to 
program, yeah, he or she also 

795
00:37:25,990 --> 00:37:27,470
can't teach the children how to 
program. 

796
00:37:27,590 --> 00:37:30,590
Exactly you need to 1st. 
Get your shit together before 

797
00:37:30,590 --> 00:37:33,070
you can teach others. 
Yeah, so does it also go back to

798
00:37:33,070 --> 00:37:34,630
the stigma? 
Like if someone that uses a 

799
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:37,550
computer as a nerd, then 
children in high school see a 

800
00:37:37,550 --> 00:37:40,750
computer or teacher as a nerd, 
then probably they won't take 

801
00:37:40,750 --> 00:37:43,670
the person really seriously. 
Yeah, and then that's hard. 

802
00:37:44,070 --> 00:37:46,270
I mean, if you look back at the 
courses you were best in in high

803
00:37:46,270 --> 00:37:48,990
school, it probably were the 
courses with the best teachers 

804
00:37:48,990 --> 00:37:51,710
or the most passionate ones. 
Yeah, that's a good one. 

805
00:37:52,290 --> 00:37:54,570
Especially the passion at once, 
because that passion comes 

806
00:37:54,570 --> 00:37:57,450
across to you, especially when 
you're young, at young age. 

807
00:37:58,210 --> 00:38:00,690
And it might even lead you to 
pursue a career somewhere 

808
00:38:00,690 --> 00:38:02,610
adjacent to the courses that you
like the most. 

809
00:38:03,210 --> 00:38:05,290
Yeah, and for me, I was really 
good in history. 

810
00:38:05,290 --> 00:38:07,450
But also I've got teachers that 
were really passionate about 

811
00:38:07,450 --> 00:38:08,490
history. 
Absolutely. 

812
00:38:08,690 --> 00:38:11,250
And at some point, because 
teachers that were also 

813
00:38:11,250 --> 00:38:14,090
passionate on history, but they 
had different sort of 

814
00:38:14,090 --> 00:38:17,090
methodology, they were mostly 
not really talking about the 

815
00:38:17,090 --> 00:38:21,320
history, but mostly talking 
about putting the history in 

816
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,200
perspective. 
Yeah, which I actually found 

817
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,840
less interesting, Okay. 
So it really depends on the 

818
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,560
teacher and how passionate they 
are about the course to really 

819
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,120
make a success for you as well. 
Yeah, it boils down to then 

820
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,120
communicating, right? 
And even as an engineer or a 

821
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,880
developer, at some point you're 
gonna do a bunch of sales, 

822
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,360
right? 
Because you need to negotiate an

823
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,000
option with your teammate. 
I have a certain specific point 

824
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,120
of view. 
You have a different one. 

825
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,920
And then we just basically need 
to negotiate our options. 

826
00:38:47,460 --> 00:38:50,500
Or you have to do some marketing
and go to your business people 

827
00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:51,900
and say, well, we wanna use this
tool. 

828
00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:54,940
It's gonna cost us a bit, but 
it's better than building it 

829
00:38:54,940 --> 00:38:58,260
ourselves for XY&Z reasons. 
So there's always a bunch of 

830
00:38:58,260 --> 00:39:01,340
different facets that nowadays 
you need to have in your toolbox

831
00:39:01,340 --> 00:39:05,100
besides the actual programming. 
And then it especially helps 

832
00:39:05,100 --> 00:39:09,420
when you already have kind of a 
different career or a different 

833
00:39:09,420 --> 00:39:11,560
journey. 
Than a bunch of other people 

834
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,400
because that could synergize, 
right? 

835
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,560
I could do more communication. 
Yeah, definitely. 

836
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,560
So in university, for my thesis 
I need to use Tata, which is a 

837
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,200
data analysis program. 
Yeah, but in the end I could 

838
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,640
have also done this with Python 
And with Stata. 

839
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,240
It's only being used by 
universities or are the same? 

840
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,680
Most universities use it well. 
If in the other hand I would 

841
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,160
have should have used Python, 
yeah it's the same learning 

842
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,480
curve but it doesn't have a UI 
so that's the only difference. 

843
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,080
Yeah, but still for SATA you 
needed to write some code in 

844
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,840
order to make it work. 
If I would have used Python back

845
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,040
then. 
Or maybe all the other people 

846
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,880
use Python as well. 
Maybe companies they work for an

847
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,080
hour also using Python instead 
of software they would build on 

848
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,160
the market in order to do their 
analysis. 

849
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,000
Yeah. 
Or you could make that shift way

850
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,720
more easily because you already 
have kind of a baseline in the 

851
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:01,800
tools that actual companies are 
using as well. 

852
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:06,300
Yeah, also and it's also mindset
by by people like the overall 

853
00:40:07,180 --> 00:40:09,620
communities. 
Because in the end, if I look at

854
00:40:09,620 --> 00:40:12,700
my university class, most of the
people are consultants, but in 

855
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:14,820
the end when they went to high 
school, probably none of them 

856
00:40:14,820 --> 00:40:17,100
wanted to be a consultant 
because what is a consultant? 

857
00:40:17,100 --> 00:40:19,580
Even you can be a software 
consultant, you can be a 

858
00:40:19,580 --> 00:40:23,260
business consultant. 
There were tons of ways to be a 

859
00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:26,660
consultant. 
So we need to find a way also as

860
00:40:26,660 --> 00:40:29,980
a society, to make people 
interested in technology from 

861
00:40:29,980 --> 00:40:32,740
like an early age on, because 
all the children are using 

862
00:40:32,740 --> 00:40:35,540
fonts, but probably none of them
know how an app is actually 

863
00:40:35,540 --> 00:40:36,580
made. 
Exactly. 

864
00:40:37,340 --> 00:40:38,820
Yeah. 
You can probably teach that in 

865
00:40:38,820 --> 00:40:41,900
kind of a gamer fight way pretty
easily to a kid, which is 

866
00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:44,380
building blocks and all. 
This is how you figure out how 

867
00:40:44,380 --> 00:40:45,500
to do XY&Z. 
Yeah. 

868
00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:49,440
And I think there are a lot of, 
a lot of methods and a lot of 

869
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,240
things out there, but it is 
really missing the guidance. 

870
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:56,040
Like they're all either there 
for profit or not-for-profit. 

871
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,920
And they're probably also not 
really run by engineers, but run

872
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,680
by business people and want to 
make sure there are enough 

873
00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:03,920
engineers in the future. 
So I think we need to find a way

874
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,160
to really bring those things 
together. 

875
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,920
And also maybe even a society. 
Think of computer programmers as

876
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,800
school people because they build
the apps you use all day instead

877
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,920
of nerds that are locked behind 
a computer. 

878
00:41:17,250 --> 00:41:20,450
I mean, software is everywhere. 
Yesterday a buddy of mine told 

879
00:41:20,450 --> 00:41:23,930
me he's going to the gym now 
again and there's a big circle 

880
00:41:23,930 --> 00:41:27,210
in the thing and you need to do 
some gym exercises basically. 

881
00:41:27,810 --> 00:41:31,210
But that is completely gamified 
in that your rhythm needs to be 

882
00:41:31,850 --> 00:41:34,450
aligned with something that's 
happening on the TV in kind of a

883
00:41:34,450 --> 00:41:36,250
gamified way. 
And at the end you get a score 

884
00:41:36,810 --> 00:41:39,490
and obviously you have a certain
ranking and you wanna get a good

885
00:41:39,490 --> 00:41:41,970
score and that also helps you 
get fit. 

886
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,640
But behind the scenes, that's 
all software that's doing it. 

887
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,840
Or that's all psychologically 
psychological psychology that 

888
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,360
helped you kind of figure out 
the gamified solution in that 

889
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:53,920
way. 
So it's kind of everywhere 

890
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,720
nowadays where you wouldn't even
expect it. 

891
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,120
Yeah, maybe also like even 
broader. 

892
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,480
I don't really. 
You have Silicon Valley, like 

893
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,400
there's a TV show. 
But besides this, there are no 

894
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,920
TV shows about programmers. 
Well, there are big TV shows 

895
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,420
about lawyers, about surgeons. 
I mean there's like 20 or 

896
00:42:12,420 --> 00:42:15,580
something sitcoms that play 
around in a hospital. 

897
00:42:15,740 --> 00:42:20,380
Yeah, absolutely, man. 
But it's hard when you say kind 

898
00:42:20,380 --> 00:42:23,300
of a society shift, right? 
Because it starts early on. 

899
00:42:23,300 --> 00:42:26,420
And if already early on you 
think, well, programming is 

900
00:42:26,420 --> 00:42:29,060
something that nerds do, how's 
that going to change then or 

901
00:42:29,060 --> 00:42:31,580
where does it need to come from?
It is really hard. 

902
00:42:31,580 --> 00:42:32,980
So it needs to come from 
multiple things. 

903
00:42:32,980 --> 00:42:35,020
So it's also parents 
understanding technology, 

904
00:42:35,020 --> 00:42:37,740
understanding software. 
Yeah, so these things will 

905
00:42:37,740 --> 00:42:42,240
evolve over time, but it's not 
really, it's not really a fast 

906
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,520
involvement. 
Yeah, and there's no silver 

907
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:45,400
bullet. 
As you say. 

908
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,920
It's gonna need time to 
basically evolve in such a way 

909
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,200
that people are just more open 
to technology. 

910
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,320
Yeah, and then popular media 
should adopt it. 

911
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,200
I mean, Elon Musk is probably 
famous because he's an 

912
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,840
entrepreneur, but not so much 
because he's an engineer. 

913
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,760
Yeah, so somehow his business 
endeavors are more interesting 

914
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,800
for people than his actual 
engineering endeavors. 

915
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,360
Well, the products these 
companies makes are really cool 

916
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,760
and they're actually changing 
the world, yeah, but somehow 

917
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,960
people more focus on the 
business side of that instead of

918
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,600
the engineering part. 
Yeah, I think more naturally it 

919
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,560
will shift because kids nowadays
are gonna be more technology 

920
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,720
native than us, for example, or 
even our parents or their 

921
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:25,120
parents way back when when they 
didn't even have a smartphone 

922
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,200
growing up or a YouTube right 
there. 

923
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,360
Yeah, yes and no. 
I think because children are 

924
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,250
using the technology, but if the
technology keeps them dumb then 

925
00:43:33,250 --> 00:43:34,810
they won't understand how the 
technology works. 

926
00:43:35,810 --> 00:43:37,530
Yeah, but I'm trying to figure 
out. 

927
00:43:37,570 --> 00:43:40,850
I'm very solution oriented, but 
this is a hard one to solve 

928
00:43:40,930 --> 00:43:42,930
basically. 
Yeah, I think it really helps 

929
00:43:42,930 --> 00:43:46,690
by. 
I mean if you go to a party and 

930
00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:47,970
try to understand what you're 
doing. 

931
00:43:48,010 --> 00:43:49,730
Yeah. 
And you could say I'm a podcast 

932
00:43:49,730 --> 00:43:51,850
host. 
Or you could also say I'm making

933
00:43:51,850 --> 00:43:54,610
quality software for companies 
all over the world and apps and 

934
00:43:54,610 --> 00:43:58,090
then probably people's own out. 
Yeah, Which is a shame, yeah, 

935
00:43:58,090 --> 00:44:00,410
which is a shame. 
But if you'll be telling I'm a 

936
00:44:00,410 --> 00:44:02,930
podcast, how is to interview 
people that are working all over

937
00:44:02,930 --> 00:44:05,210
the world and changing the 
world, then they're probably 

938
00:44:05,210 --> 00:44:07,130
interested. 
But as soon as you put software 

939
00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:09,890
in there, people sort of sewn 
out and think boring. 

940
00:44:10,730 --> 00:44:13,730
I think it depends on how you 
say that, because your most 

941
00:44:13,730 --> 00:44:17,370
interesting thing could be the 
program you're writing, or why 

942
00:44:17,370 --> 00:44:19,090
you're doing it and what you're 
achieving with it. 

943
00:44:19,370 --> 00:44:22,450
It's still a tool and still a 
method to accomplish something. 

944
00:44:22,770 --> 00:44:26,570
And it could be technological, 
but that shouldn't really matter

945
00:44:26,570 --> 00:44:28,450
in what you're doing or what 
you're accomplishing. 

946
00:44:29,610 --> 00:44:31,730
Yeah, that's true. 
But if you are a surgeon here, 

947
00:44:31,730 --> 00:44:33,890
tell about your open heart 
surgeries. 

948
00:44:33,890 --> 00:44:35,730
Some people really want to know 
how it works. 

949
00:44:35,890 --> 00:44:37,770
Yeah, it depends. 
Because then you could say, 

950
00:44:37,770 --> 00:44:42,130
well, I use these tools or this 
kind of mindset and theory in 

951
00:44:42,130 --> 00:44:44,930
doing it, but the thing you did 
was still saving a patient's 

952
00:44:44,930 --> 00:44:47,970
life or doing the thing that is 
exciting, basically. 

953
00:44:48,170 --> 00:44:51,370
Yeah, maybe we just need better 
advocates, yeah. 

954
00:44:51,370 --> 00:44:54,490
Or maybe like a TV show 
developers really showing how it

955
00:44:54,490 --> 00:44:58,050
can change the world, how it 
impacts, yeah, things, because 

956
00:44:58,050 --> 00:45:01,010
the TV shows that are there are 
also putting down software 

957
00:45:01,010 --> 00:45:03,650
engineers as hackers or yeah, 
these kind of things. 

958
00:45:03,650 --> 00:45:06,730
You have all these shitty TV 
shows with terminals being 

959
00:45:06,730 --> 00:45:10,170
opened, which certainly nothing 
happens and then somehow they're

960
00:45:11,490 --> 00:45:13,530
it makes it a bit hard for 
people to crisp, I think. 

961
00:45:13,730 --> 00:45:17,090
Yeah, I hope it'll change. 
I'm a positive person, 

962
00:45:17,410 --> 00:45:19,250
basically. 
Yeah, I mean as well. 

963
00:45:19,250 --> 00:45:22,690
But I do think we need to also 
as engineers or developers, make

964
00:45:22,690 --> 00:45:25,680
sure that there is this shift. 
Like, be proud about talking 

965
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,880
what you do to your friends, 
even if they don't understand. 

966
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,640
And actually try to make them 
understand, because maybe your 

967
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,080
friend of yours that's now a 
lawyer. 

968
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:34,840
Yeah, maybe his job will be gone
in like 10 or 20 years. 

969
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,160
Yeah, and they actually need to 
start programming later on. 

970
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,920
So it would be nice if you could
somehow already influence them 

971
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,520
now so they'll know what to do 
with the job in like 10 or 20 

972
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:46,920
years. 
And maybe you can already start 

973
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:48,560
the programming course on the 
side. 

974
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,840
Yeah, I think, I think a lot of 
jobs already are doing that, as 

975
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,910
you mentioned. 
My buddy's a trading guy. 

976
00:45:54,910 --> 00:45:57,710
He makes a lot of trades. 
I have no clue what he does on a

977
00:45:57,710 --> 00:46:01,110
day-to-day, but I do know that 
he needs to do a bit of Python 

978
00:46:01,630 --> 00:46:04,350
And it's kind of stimulated from
the organization that he's with 

979
00:46:05,270 --> 00:46:07,270
in still kind of broadening his 
skill set. 

980
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:11,030
Also more towards the technical 
side, which is pretty cool 

981
00:46:11,590 --> 00:46:14,070
because I can also imagine a 
trading company maybe would say 

982
00:46:14,750 --> 00:46:17,910
we need more advanced software. 
So we need to buy our software 

983
00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:20,730
somewhere and then in the end it
makes the trading agents dumb 

984
00:46:20,730 --> 00:46:22,610
because the software is doing 
stuff for them. 

985
00:46:22,770 --> 00:46:24,490
No, they make it's really nice 
that they do it this way. 

986
00:46:24,650 --> 00:46:25,970
Yeah, they make everything in 
house. 

987
00:46:26,290 --> 00:46:30,290
So that's their edge compared to
the competition basically. 

988
00:46:31,450 --> 00:46:34,210
And they hire a lot of good 
developers, but they also teach 

989
00:46:34,210 --> 00:46:37,530
the trading people to know the 
technical side so they can align

990
00:46:37,530 --> 00:46:39,410
that it's cool. 
So the trading people still 

991
00:46:39,610 --> 00:46:42,250
remain training people instead 
of software becoming a trading 

992
00:46:42,250 --> 00:46:44,330
person exactly. 
Or maybe even the software 

993
00:46:44,330 --> 00:46:47,580
developer that built the trading
software is more of a trading 

994
00:46:47,580 --> 00:46:49,380
agent and the actual trading 
agent in the end. 

995
00:46:49,460 --> 00:46:53,260
Yeah, I think it's a balance, 
but definitely both sides know 

996
00:46:53,700 --> 00:46:55,380
each other. 
The technical people are still 

997
00:46:55,380 --> 00:46:58,500
the technical people, and the 
domain experts should remain the

998
00:46:58,500 --> 00:47:00,740
domain experts. 
Yeah, but technical people need 

999
00:47:00,740 --> 00:47:02,300
to know the domain and vice 
versa. 

1000
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:05,540
I think domain experts need to 
know the technical side so we 

1001
00:47:05,540 --> 00:47:08,180
can just synergize better and 
make a better product at the 

1002
00:47:08,180 --> 00:47:09,620
end. 
That's really cool. 

1003
00:47:09,980 --> 00:47:13,180
Yeah, on that note, let's round 
it off, man. 

1004
00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:15,420
I had a lot of fun. 
Yes, thank you a lot. 

1005
00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:18,940
And well, I just hope if you 
have been listening AR in 

1006
00:47:18,940 --> 00:47:22,340
business then you will start the
programming course sometime 

1007
00:47:22,340 --> 00:47:23,460
soon. 
I think so. 

1008
00:47:23,740 --> 00:47:26,900
I think it's all about just 
being open to try out new things

1009
00:47:27,540 --> 00:47:30,340
and seeing if it works for you, 
or just learning about kind of 

1010
00:47:30,340 --> 00:47:33,340
the unknown as well. 
Yeah, maybe trying to find 

1011
00:47:33,340 --> 00:47:36,060
evolving in your job because 
five years ago you needed to 

1012
00:47:36,060 --> 00:47:38,740
know Excel to find a job. 
So hopefully in five years time 

1013
00:47:39,060 --> 00:47:42,060
you maybe need some Python or 
some JavaScript experience to 

1014
00:47:42,060 --> 00:47:44,660
actually find that job. 
Yeah, We'll see how it goes, 

1015
00:47:44,660 --> 00:47:45,480
man. 
Yes. 

1016
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,440
Thank you. 
Cool Roy, Dex, everyone beyond 

1017
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,520
coding from your sponsors, 
Zibia, creating digital leaders.