Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Aquila and
today's episode is all about leadership and personal
coaching. If you want to get better at
both of those or either of those keep listening.
Joining me today is Sumi Gupta, was the founder of the deploy
yourself School of leadership and the podcast host of The
Continuous leadership podcast. I'll put all his links to
socials in the description below, check him out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode.
What are you one of those people that coaches people because I
always I think I'm going to do that in the future.
I don't feel comfortable doing it yet, but not everyone wants
that. Not everyone wants to do that.
Some people just want to do their own business and that's
that. But you say it's very much for
giving back to people. Absolutely.
Yeah. Well, how do you start adding
even in my engineering career the moments which I remember the
best, the oven people coming to me and saying that one
conversation made a difference on.
I gave an advice. Or I asked a question, which
opened something up for them? Which are not visible before.
And I have always cherished those, that feedback or those
comments more than any Financial rewards, anything like that?
I love that. Yeah.
So that's a very personal to me. Yes, I can do.
Second thing is my own growth personally has been massive
compared to where I started with.
Yeah, like as an introverted techie to what I do now and what
I have done as an entrepreneur, as a social activist It's
totally beyond my own wildest dreams.
I like that as I've grown a lot, and then there have been coaches
who have supported me in the last 10 to 12 years.
And then I try to do the same for others because I see that.
A people have dreams people have their own Vision.
Yet, if they feel stopped by that, then I almost feel an urge
to go out and help them. See that whatever they are
dreaming is within their grasp. I love, I love hearing that.
I mean, some people just need a sparring partner, right?
Or like a mirror, and you need to have people that are open for
that, and that, that really just love helping other people and
helping other people grow and get to that next level, whatever
it may be. And I think that's amazing that
we have, a lot of people like that.
I think I'm one of those people. I just haven't taken that step
yet. I'm coaching and supporting more
on a micro level, I guess, within my own environment, but I
haven't taken that step in doing that external.
You mentioned specifically entrepreneurship and at being
Technical person which was or started out a bit more introvert
was intrapreneurship always something that you kind of
admired and wanted to do in your own path as well.
Absolutely I think so. I grew up in the late 80s and
the early 90s in. Yeah and almost everybody was an
entrepreneur back then because the organized sector was not
established yet. Yeah.
So almost everybody was running their own small shop or
something. Okay.
So I had seen my father done maybe 10.
Maybe 20 different jobs or started something and then
shutting it off. Well, so it has always been.
And I've always admired especially, ever since I got
connected with technology. I've always admired Tech
entrepreneurs. Yeah, specially in the internet
age and that's where I started. I started with creating a tech
company. First of all, in fact, first two
of my companies were tech companies and then I started an
NGO which was totally something different, what's an NGO?
Non-governmental organization. Okay?
Yeah yeah. But working more on the societal
bit more on leadership level rather than the technical
Foundation, interesting. Yeah, but why would you switch
because usage? Initially started out with a
creating a technical company. Another company that you have
sure has Tech adjacencies, but it's not doing mostly technical
things, that's it right now. Know.
Right now what I'm doing is creating a school of leadership.
Yeah. Working mostly with leaders help
them become better leaders. So I still work with tech
companies or Tech leaders, but But working with people on their
teams and on their leadership. Exactly.
Yeah. But walk me through, then your
own path because you said you started out in creating
software, right? That was your role said you're
even a little bit introvert there.
Like I recognize that for myself as well but at some point either
you Blossom and that introvert becomes a little bit more
extrovert or you. You tip the balance a little bit
towards, as extrovert Miller. But how did that go for you, can
you walk us through, kind of your path, in how you grew in
there. So there are a couple of
instances which I can leave. Very clearly.
Yeah, one was a personal development program and somebody
recommended that to me and I only did it because of the
recommendation and because this person was so well known to my
father. Yeah, so well trusted in the
family. So I did this program and then
that opened up a totally new side of human behavior to me.
Because before then before that I was all about computers.
Yeah. How to think logically how to
program computers? But never going deeper on a
personal level. How do people behave And so that
opened up my eyes and then I think a year after that I
reached out to some people who are planning to organize an
anti-corruption, March, a protest, March in my own City.
Okay? And I reached out to them that
how can I join them? And they replied back at there
is no March plan for my city. There is a March plan for an
adjacent City. Yeah.
And then they asked me to do you want to organize one.
Okay. Right.
And I don't know what, but something got into me and I
said, yes, and then That was something which I have never
done before. I was still working for Yahoo at
that time. Yeah, still a very introverted
person shy person had no idea about how do you deal with all
of these Politics, the social Affairs, dealing with bullies,
dealing with rules, and regulations, and dealing with a
lot of volunteering fundraising stuff like that, and the March
was just 40 days ago ahead. Yeah.
So what I did was I build a team around that because I had no
choice rather than to get into action.
Yeah. And those It has basically
changed my life. Mmm.
Because I think one thing which I realized that, because of my
background in engineering and thinking logically, I always had
this question in my mind. How to, before I do anything, I
always go and read books about it.
Try to find out everything about that aspect of it before.
Jumping into it. At the same time, what I
realized was that when it comes to leadership sometimes, how to
can come in the way because it can lead you to 0, The
preparation overanalyzing and it can keep you back because some
because you don't have enough reasons you don't have enough.
How to's? Yeah I'd because for that March
if I have would have searched for reasons.
Why I am a good person to do that.
There was no reason there was no such reasons.
Exactly. And my biggest lesson from that
was that sometimes if you come it first, if you say, let's make
it happen. Yeah.
Then things will take care of itself, exerts a very different
kind of leadership and then we normally We see because that
requires you to be one variable that requires you to say that.
I do not know what I need help. Yeah.
So help me fill in the gaps and also in the day-to-day, how do
you manage all of that and deal with your own fear deal with
your own insecurities, which will come up?
Because you're stepping into the unknown?
Exactly. Yeah, it was my biggest learning
there. I don't think there's ever going
to be perfect moment for you to be comfortable and something
you've never done before, right? Sure.
You can read but having practical, It's like, there's
always going to be insecurities there at some point.
You just have to be like, okay, we're going to go for this.
We can keep reading and keep figuring out the reasons how we
should do things, or even why we should do things.
But, at some point, you have to act right without acting,
nothing's going to happen. Absolutely.
And Leadership is all about acting.
Yeah, she part is all about dealing with the unknowns and
especially when you work with people, it's unknowns right?
People are not predictable. People are uncertain by Nature,
even if everybody is a software engineer, everybody is a data.
Dentist, the way they react to you.
The way they respond. The way they act is very
different. Yeah.
Based on what is happening in their life beso.
Based on their experience is based on their influences and so
on. Yeah, okay cool.
But from the moment you started over on the mound, you organize,
that that kind of, was it a strike?
It was striking was a protest March, it was protest.
Yeah, from the moment you organized the protest.
How did you transition then from being a software engineer to
doing more things with people? Like how is that transition?
I think one thing which I realized that I had no idea what
I can do, okay? Because before that I always had
this that I'm a software engineer or I'm a techie.
So this is what I can do. These are the normal career path
and so on. Yeah.
And that opened up a huge set of possibilities that I can do
anything. It's just about getting into the
field and then learning what needs to be learned.
Yeah. So that was where when I started
the non-governmental, Ation. Okay, which was again in that
space, helping a lot of other people who were fighting for
something, something bigger than themselves or cause.
Yeah. And then I remember at one time,
I was leading six or seven teams in different cities of India
were. And I was and those teams were
volunteer-driven teams, right? There was no salaries there.
Yeah, and they were organizing projects or activities
independently. So that gave me a very good
experience of coaching because if you are not giving salaries
and A lot of volunteers then you cannot demand from them.
You can for you cannot and first anything you have to be more
coach. Like you have to be more of a
very different kind of communication.
Yeah. And also dealing with the
challenges because some of these are societal work requires, huge
challenges or huge opportunities for growth for the people who
are involved. Yeah, so that took me in
naturally down a path where my readership suddenly changed and
then I carried that to work as well, okay.
So still Working in tech companies and I carried that
there and I could saw that the people started to trust me more.
They would become more open. They would become more honest
with me. Yeah, even if it is something
very personal to them and that allowed me to basically take
the, all the pressure away from my own shoulders, as a leaders,
but also from everybody and then the performance and results,
which we were working on, almost became a side product for having
good relationships. I love the I love hearing that
kind of It took the took the issue away, right?
Or not even the issue where I talk about the non-governmental
organization, the fact that you don't pay people salaries,
right? You have to motivate them in a
different way, right? With a vision and they really
have to believe in you as the leader has the kind of
organization that you're standing behind.
And the only way to do that is to get better at doing that
motivating. People did you start off already
being comfortable with that or how was your growth path there
because if I think about myself, I really had to learn how to do
that. And what works with certain
people and when do I speak my opinion?
When do I give advice? And when do I just listened
right? That's a Learning Journey.
Was that the same for you very much?
It was like getting on a bike for the first time.
Yeah. And that is golf's falling down.
Yeah. And then you say I'm sorry, I
shouldn't have done that or there's a better way.
Let me let me redo it. Yeah and because at that point
of time I just jumped in and I just built teams so because the
the motivation, the vision was strong that it attracted people.
Yeah. And even though I was not
skilled enough in That kind of leadership, it kind of forced me
to learn as well as practice and then, as as anybody, who jumps
on a bike for the first time there are nervous moments.
There are moments you fall down. Yeah.
But if you are on a bike, you have to look forward.
If you look at the ground, you touch will make you fall down so
there was no time to look backwards and continuously move
forward. So they were, they were
absolutely moments of uncertainty anxiety.
Yeah, but at the same time, I was learning a lot.
I was growing a lot and I had Add the support of a coach once
again. Yeah.
So for the last five last, 12 years, I think five or six
years. I have had a coach personally
for myself. Yeah.
And that has been a massive game changer for me, because that
gives me that confidence to jump into something unknown, knowing
that if I struggle, then I have somebody to go to have somebody
to share my challenges that my deepest inner fears, which I
cannot really share with anybody.
Yeah. And that gives us a huge boost
to You to your death. Calms your nerves down, first of
all, but also allows you to dream bigger, allows you to
challenge, others better than that.
You would do without a coach. Yeah, I love hearing that.
I think that's, that might be even something I'm missing right
now in my personal Journey because I've had coaches but
right now not as much because you're busy with your day-to-day
thing, right? Your work and sometimes even
personal development gets put on second place or not even second
place sometimes on third or fourth place, you don't look at
that as much right. But for me, Personally takes
sometimes a conversation with doesn't even matter if I know
them or not. Could be a random person to
trigger my thinking process trigger about.
Okay, what am I doing? Do I still want to do this?
What is, what is my dream? What is the vision that I want
to go towards? And then I make changes but
having a coach that's there, that's table, right?
You sit with them, weekly bi-weekly doesn't matter and
having those conversations is a continuous way of externalizing
your inner thoughts and sometimes you don't even know.
Those are your thoughts. Till you're talking with someone
because then you figure out, oh, this is actually what I'm
thinking. I love that.
The coach should be a kind of a stable Factor within your
personal journey. I think that's how you're going
to grow the fastest, especially when you're early in career or
when you're doing something completely new, you need that
guidance in there. Absolutely.
And I think leadership can become a solo Journey, but it's
by definition. It's not right?
It's dealing with people. Yeah, and I think, as a culture,
we have created a culture where it is difficult to talk about
fears, or It and that's why coach has become so required, or
powerful. And I still remember I was
talking to a coach of mine. Yeah, and they noticed a lump in
my throat, okay? And before talking further, they
asked me about that because something was something in the
conversation which was causing me to react, it wasn't causing
me to feel anxiety, and they noticed it in my throat.
Yeah, and then the question means, right then.
And there tell me about this like let's stop our conversation
and tell me what is making you uncomfortable right now.
And that Allowed me to see something, which I would not
have seen on my own at all. Yeah.
Right. So the power of a good coach is
really who can show you the mirror who can stop you,
sometimes challenge, you provoke you yeah to show you the mirror
that if you say that you want to grow then this is a moment for
you that you need to face it. You need to address.
You cannot just Sidetrack it. Exactly the coaches, that the
challenge you also to challenge you to challenge yourself
because at that point, that's the only way you're going to to
grow or move Pastor or move from things, I guess?
Yes, yes. I think the coaching journey is
not always comfortable. Yeah, I in fact, like one of my
roles as a coach is to serve you not to please you.
Yeah, that might mean saying something which I wouldn't tell
you as a friend. Exactly.
So it's a very easy to talk about regular stuff in the
regular way that we do with friends.
Yeah but with coaching if I do that then I'm not serving you
then sometimes I help you. Out of that like the same
vicious cycle. Yeah of a particular style of
language or thinking and see that like this is stopping.
You can you see that this is stopping?
You can you see that this way of thinking is coming in the way
and sometimes that can be confronting.
So if you can provide that safe space for somebody to really be
okay with that, that's a huge opportunity for growth exactly.
Yeah. But to do so, like the person
you're coaching should have a safe environment, right?
And you as a coach, you have the possibility to give that, I
wouldn't call it the platform's more of an environment and to
make it as safe as possible for them to speak their mind, right?
And be challenged and be confronted with things with that
mirror. That is themselves.
How do you from a coaching point of view?
Create that environment that is safe, where people feel
comfortable to speak their mind? Yeah, I think this is one of the
key aspects of leadership. Yeah.
And watching it, I think is a key aspect of leadership as well
that to create that space to create that framework of trust.
You have to trust Other person. First you have to listen, right?
So I cannot jump in with a challenge.
Yeah, my first conversation I have to really listen and
understand your point of view, give you a chance to share and
maybe give you more than one chance to share.
Really understand really ask questions and connect with.
You might provide that space physically, emotionally and not
to judge you. Now, because it's not about what
I say, but my judgment of you can be visible.
And for you. I was as human beings.
We are all good at. Yeah.
Right. We think that we are not but we
are good at identifying when somebody is trying to fool us or
whether we are faking an emotion or not.
So once I feel that there is a space then I get to become more
challenging or more bold in my coaching approach as well.
Yeah, I like that a lot starting by listening and allowing the
person to say the things that are on their mind.
So not immediately challenged that or to give your own Ian but
letting people speak, right? Because I don't know why it is,
but listening is already so powerful, yet.
We don't do it that often right. Everything needs to be fast and
people want to talk fast and want to give their own opinion
and talk over each other while sometimes the most powerful
thing you can do, is to listen to what someone has to say, make
them feel heard before you speak your opinion.
Yeah, listening is a gift which you have to somebody else and it
happens many times in my conversations that the entire
conversation, the other one is talking.
Yeah. And then, at the end of the
conversation, I feel bad that I didn't do any coaching, and I
would tell that person and that we didn't get to really talk
coach a lot and that person replies back to me that this was
the best conversation along because I listened to it, right?
So it's a gift. Listening is a gift, which you
are really giving. If you can really get out of
your own head, your own thinking and listen to the other person.
Not just what they are saying. But also what they're feeling
and then where they are coming from, right.
What is it that people care about every conversation which
you are having. People are always telling you
what they care about, yeah, or what, they don't care about.
The only question is are you listening to that or not?
You can listen on the level of words or you can go deeper and
listen on the level of emotion or you can go even a level
deeper and really listen it. Why does this matter to you?
Yeah if you are telling me something then there is
something about it which matters to you and can I listen to that
especially if I am leading you? If if I'm reading a team then
that it becomes very significant information for me to find work
for you. Not just which helps the
business but also which motivates you which keeps you
engaged. Which helps you grow.
Yeah. What are the key drivers to
motivate someone. Right, what is it?
They really want because I mean if you look at financially money
is just a means to an end, right?
If you want to live free live in a different country, sure money
is going to help you but the fact that you want to live in a
different country or you want to like live your life, the way you
want it. That is your main goal.
So your work and the things of the challenges that are in
there, can accommodate for that or can build on top of that or
allow you to do that while on the job which is going to make
you happier as a person. It's going to fulfill you more.
Yes, in fact, most people when you ask, what do you want?
Yeah, whatever the answer is, most people doesn't don't want
that. They want something deeper and
as a coach, it's your role and your responsibility to figure
that out and everybody's like that, it's even for you.
You, if you think that you are driven by money, there is
something that the money provides.
Yeah, it's a real motivator. And can you go one level deeper
and listen to that? And then address that in the
communication? Yeah.
Like that a lot. I mean, you mentioned in the in
the NGO when you were kind of leading people for that
organization, you said I didn't have as much experience, right?
So when I fell down ask for feedback, I apologize that.
I promise to do better in that way.
Put that over he's very vulnerable for you as a person
to put yourself in that situation, right?
That's not comfortable for a lot of people to be in, but was that
natural for you to do that? Or to take that role?
Was that something you kind of adopted?
Like, how is the growth path there?
Did you learn to do so, or was that kind of in your nature?
No, it was not in my nature at all.
I think, as I takee, I always was hiding myself behind the
computer first. So, opening up about my
emotions. Is it is very difficult to even
now it is, it is not easy. Yeah.
Right. But one, you realize that this
is Meaningful. And everyone Rebel Act is also a
courageous act. Yeah.
Right. So it's an act of Courage.
It's not an act of weakness because when you share something
it feels very like it. It feels very bad or very it
would you don't want to feel that.
It feels uncomfortable. Yeah but it's a courageous acts
like it's an act of power because other see you better
once you open up exactly. So if you can get out of that
level of uncomfort NC, the value it provides for everybody else.
Almost everybody is listening. Wow who Is this person who can
share like that. Yeah.
And you are thinking that a river right now, what am I
doing? If you can get outside of that
and see it from The Wider point of view, right?
Because the NGO, whatever leadership responsibilities you
have taken on is not about you. Yeah, it's about something
bigger than you, right? And that's where the
vulnerability actually solves and if you can listen to that,
then it is actually helping you in your leadership.
So that helps you even if it is difficult that helps you gather
the courage to do it and the Anything, which I mentioned,
right? If to talk about it with your
own coach. Yeah.
In a private setting later on to process something more
meaningful, which is there or to go a little bit deeper for your
own self and make sense of it. Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
I mean, from the coaching point of view, I could see how that
helps with your realization right but at some point
realization is very hard and it's different for people,
right? I think you need to really just
experience kind of both things and see the positive compared to
the negatives. I think of Being open and being
honest and being transparent. Because if you don't do that,
people will people will feel there.
Are people are like well, you know, Sumit as a leader is not
transparent. I don't know what he's doing, we
don't know where we're going like so many insecurities to not
follow you as a leader then. Well, if you're transparent and
honest about anything that's going on, people will believe
you. People will trust you people.
I think that's the most important part trust you and
believe in you, right? Yeah.
And then they will stand behind you.
Yeah. And I'll add one more thing,
right? Your when you talk about As and
transparency. Yeah.
One way you can deal with all of the anxiety or discomfort which
comes up is to actually open up your body breathing deeply.
When you open up your body, it creates a relationship, it
creates trust, automatically be careful open rather than if I
like squeeze myself that normally happens when I am
anxious. Yeah, it creates something in my
body language, which makes it difficult.
First of all, to communicate and to makes it difficult to smile,
makes it difficult to listen and makes it difficult to think
rationally as Well, if I can open up my body and focus on my
breathing. Yeah, let me see.
Basically slows things down and allows me to maybe build a level
of awareness. Even in the moment, when I am
feeling anxious, instead of being caught in my anxiety, I
can sense that I am anxious and then I can do something
different and then I can slow down.
And then I can do what is required rather than what feels
most comfortable, which might be running away.
We are you hiding hiding myself. Exactly.
I mean, as far Flight sometimes, right and interface the
challenge there, and to kind of push through, that is indeed way
harder. That's the harder path than
avoiding it, or running away or doing other things but we
touched on transparency and openness.
Do you think transparency and openness can be achieved by
managers 100% of the time? Like, can they be, can they opt
for being transparent and honest 100% of the time or do they need
to find a balance in between over communicating and not
communicating enough for the people that they met?
Manage. I guess.
Yeah. I think when it comes to
leadership there is no one recipe for what is best.
Yeah. Right.
Especially when we are talking with people or teams who are all
different. Yeah, so first of all
transparency is encouraged as much as possible, especially the
new way of leading people unless there are legal or compliance
reason. Yeah, you can be as much
transparent as possible, but if you can sense that this level of
transparency will bring anxiety, or will make a conversation
difficult, then you have that discretion or not.
Hear that. So, do you as a leader, you
always have that discretion depending on the person or the
team that you're talking to at? How do you want to flex that?
Yeah, same with listening. It's the same with provoking.
Somebody challenging somebody. How much do you want that?
Because there is always a place when it becomes destructive
rather than productive. Yeah.
And sometimes you learn that by practice, but over period of
time, you will learn to flex. So there is no one recipe, which
you can apply for all situations.
But as The journal guideline? Yes, transparency.
The more you can be transparent, especially things which make you
uncomfortable. Yeah, can be a huge morale
booster for other people to give you an example.
I was coaching a CEO who was almost about to fire a large
part of their company. Yeah, and they were feeling
guilty and they were feeling. Blame A self-blame about data,
they were going to do something which was like in their mind.
Very - yeah. And they asked is person.
Have you shared this with your team and they said that never.
I would never do that. Okay.
And then we walked on that together and then I encourage
this person to share the situation, the financial
situation with the team. Yeah and when this person shared
it with the team, there was a huge opening, a huge energy,
which started to flow because almost everybody knew that the
company was struggling. Yeah.
But this conversation was not happening and then what happened
was totally amazing that everybody pitched in not just
with so everybody many people volunteer to take pay cuts.
Yeah. That what they did but they
Pitched in, with other ideas to increase the revenue, without
increasing the cost. So, it took the company, six
months, and some people did not get their salary at that point
of time. But because of the creativity
that was Unleashed or the togetherness, that was Unleashed
because of the CEOs, courageous act to really say that I'm
facing this Dreadful decision. I might have to let some of you
go. What can we do about it?
Helped me. Right?
He basically said that and then after six months, the company
actually went up. The government of beyond what
they were doing earlier. Yeah.
Because the economical downturn passed away, and the company was
better off for that. They had more morale, they had
more loyalty, the people stayed, everybody stayed, the leader was
able to pay everybody who had to forego their pay and they had
new projects, they had new better processes, which only
came about as a result of this leader asking for help.
Yeah, yeah. I love that example, right?
But if, if I were to Put myself in that leader shoes.
I don't even know how I would do that.
But when you ask the question, why didn't you why don't you
talk to your team about this or why don't you be open to that
when they say no? Like, I've never thought of
that? Why do they never think of that?
Is it because they put themselves in a vulnerable
position or because it is such a difficult choice that they would
rather like keep it to themselves.
What makes people keep when it's information about others?
Write it impacts others to the point where they might get fired
because of it, right? And the information is so, Show
that they would rather keep it to themselves.
Then open it. Open it up.
Even though, as you just laid out, there might be numerous
amounts of benefits from that. Yeah, I think what happens in
crisis situations, we are programmed to focus towards
safety or control, right? And for this leader, it was a
big mistake or a big burden. Yeah.
To share that with the people and he felt blamed what's
himself? Yeah, that stopped him, but what
I helped him see that is bigger responsibilities towards the
company and where the company is moving forward, right?
So in the interest of the larger good, which is the company, he
had to see everybody together, first of all, and then, even if
he had to take the tough decision, there was nothing
wrong about that. Hmm.
At As Leaders, you are required to make some tough decisions
from time to time. Yeah, but what happened was the
moment he shared that because we came to it from transparency and
openness, right? So there is a different aspect
that. Yes, you might need to let go of
people. You might need to take some
difficult decisions. But from a perspective of
transparency and openness, when you do that, when you let go of
your own fears of letting people down or the burden of take you
the only one responsible because you are the CEO.
Yeah, if you can let go you can allow others a chance and that
is not possible without transparency.
That is not possible without honesty and that level of he was
asking for help or saying, I don't know, is a, is a very
powerful leadership movie yet. It is very difficult for people
to practice or to do. You actually put into put into
place. Yeah.
I think I mean what they value
and how they got to that position was just a track record
of good things, right? So all of a sudden when they
their track record has been probably a lot of successes and
some failures, but a lot of successes mostly they think they
need to exemplify what it means to be successful or what it
means to only have success in that way, while being open and
vulnerable shows the people that you're leading, the people that
you're managing the people that stand behind you that you're
also a human, right? And everyone has their Giggles
and this might be an organizational struggle.
This might be a personal struggle of people will help you
with that, right? If we're in a ship and sailing
together in our captain sick, we're going to take care of our
captain. Right?
Because we're still in the ship together.
Yeah. And I think another aspect here
which we often ignore As Leaders, is that, we are leading
a team because we care about people or we care about
something bigger. Yeah.
But at the same time, everybody wants to contribute.
Everybody wants to help. So if I take that upon myself,
that it's only my role as a leader to help to contribute.
You too coach. I am depriving others in my team
to help me. Yeah.
So asking for help is also a gift.
You are giving to others to contribute to you and that makes
leadership so much easier. I like that a lot kind of help
allowing others to help you, it empowers them, right?
And it makes you like leaders can be on this pedestal and they
can be like this kind of Untouchable figure.
But if you ask for help, if you talked about your struggles
internal or external it allows you to To remain human to other
people. And then we can help each other,
right? If we're on the same level,
doesn't matter. If there's a hierarchy, if I
feel like I'm on the same level, we're going to help each other
out, right? Because we're still in this
together. I think that makes a big
difference in how people cooperate because sometimes, if
you're in a leadership role If you don't do that then people
are going to withhold information from you.
If you can't be transparent and open and vulnerable, the other
people can't be that either, right?
And then you're going to have this isolation and management
layer and people that actually do the work layer and it's going
to be a mismatch in a divide there and eventually a conflict
on a Clash and you want to avoid that at all costs, I think.
Yeah. And giving and receiving both
our skills which are very powerful from a leadership
perspective. If you'd if you notice a lot of
people and this is very true for me as well.
Well, if somebody gives me a compliment, I would almost brush
it aside. Okay, rival.
I would almost put it to the other person.
Might, it's not all me, it's you also.
Yeah, but receiving something receiving is a gift, right?
It's allowing others to contribute to your journey, and
many leaders have to learn that. It's not natural because they
are too comfortable in working hard, or sacrificing themselves.
Yeah, that receiving whether it's a compliment, or receiving,
help or receiving contribution from somebody else is, is a
skill, which needs to be Learned and trained the think people
ever talk about leaders and how they get into those positions.
Usually it doesn't happen as gradual right?
If I'm in an organization and my next step, I want to be VP of
engineering and we already have a VP of engineering and I've
never done that but I think that's the next step for my
career. I'm going to look outside of my
organization. If I can't find it inside the
organization, which means I'm going to lose all the safety net
that is in there. I'm going to go into a different
organization in that leadership position.
We were going to have expectations of me as a leader.
I'm going to have expectations of myself.
There might be a mismatch there, but the fact that I've never
done it before, it's probably going to show in some things
because I'm going to fail. I'm going to be not good at some
things as I going to as I am going to be good at other things
but that's how people how I think most leaders get into that
position kind of from the first time, right?
And then they have to build up experience but the fact that
you're already a leader and then building up experience.
People don't account for because that person is the leader so
they should already have. What it takes to be there.
Yeah. And I think that's another
misconception around leadership. Is that it is tight to a title?
Yeah, or a position. And yes accountability yes.
So unless you are the VP of engineering you will not have
the accountability that a VP of engineering has.
Yeah but even if you are one level below even if you are a
director or a senior manager, yeah you can still take
responsibility what a VP of engineering does and basically
ask that person right what what do you need?
How can I make your life? Your roll easier.
So Anybody can take up responsibility for one level or
two levels above themselves. Yeah.
Accountability is very different and if you take on
responsibility, what you are getting is practice.
First of all, the leader is more likely to give you some projects
or some tasks at a higher level that gives you practice when you
are not accountable. Yeah.
Right. What else do you need?
That's a safe place for you to practice learn even make a few
mistakes but especially when you grow when you or either inside
or outside, you will be. Confident, you will be more
prepared and that also sets an example for everybody else that
you can take responsibility. You can grow without waiting for
a title or without waiting for permission.
Yeah, I like that a lot and that allows you to grow gradually
right? Grow within a safe environment.
Still that way you make mistakes, you can still pick
them up and recover from those and sure at the end you might
not be accountable but you still got that responsibility, right.
If responsibilities is given to you you are responsible.
Possible and you're going to do your best to kind of succeed in
that and to grow from that. And I would much rather have
someone gradually grow into a leader leadership position.
Then having a leader, which I don't even know what their
experience is. But then now, there might be
either I guess and I don't know how gradually they've grown and
then I'm going to be very critical of their leadership
because that's kind of the only relationship we have.
I like that a lot actually that it can be a gradual thing
because in my mind it was always like a snap and you're there you
have the responsibility and accountability but it Have to
be. Yeah.
And they're at the same time, sometimes it can be a snap then
as well that might work to your advantage because as I said
earlier, most people have no idea what they are really
capable of. Yeah.
So if you think that you are not good at that, that might be only
a thought or only a thinking, rather than being the truth.
So, if you tackle something much bigger than what you have done,
you might just realize that you are naturally good at that.
Yeah, right. And that can help you speed up
the process, which white which might otherwise take you five
years. What if you can do that in one
year? But who wouldn't want that?
I like the law. But do you think if we talk
about the things you're good at, some people have done, some
people don't have that, but when it comes to leadership,
specifically can anyone be a leader or can anyone have the
skills that it requires to be a leader?
I get that. Not, everyone wants to be a
leader but when it comes to the skills, specifically, can people
teach it to themselves even though they might not be as AB
data as others? Yes, I think leadership is a
learned skill. We have anybody can learn
doesn't mean that everybody should learn.
Yeah, as you said, right. But It's a it's a set of skills.
Another question which are normally.
Get is like, how do I deal with difficult conversations?
Yeah, and my normal response now is that the conversation is
difficult to not? Because there is something
difficult about the conversation.
Yeah. But because you do not have a
particular skill, okay. And once you build that scale in
the same conversation becomes easy, interesting, right?
So it's not about the conversation, it's about the
person is because the same conversation might look
difficult to somebody and see to somebody.
And if we look back in our lives, there might be
conversations, which at one point, we felt were difficult
and now it comes naturally to us.
It's not about the conversation. When we say a conversation is
difficult. Yeah, it's only about a skill,
which we are missing. And then if we identify it, as a
function of ourselves rather than the conversation, then we
have something in our control. Yeah.
If I identify that, I cannot deal with the emotions, then
that's a skill. I can learn if I identified that
I cannot be assertive. Then that is a skill.
I can But if I see the conversation is difficult, there
is very less that I can do. Exactly.
That's, are you control? So then if it's are you control,
how do you improve that? Now, it's just a difficult
conversation, then you lose it. I think you'll lose control in
that way. If people realize it that, do
you think it makes them more comfortable being in
uncomfortable situations, then as well or uncomfortable for
their skill level. If I were to put it down way in
the short term, maybe? No, but in the long term, yes.
Yeah. Right.
And people are normally glad for that.
Like, normally when Somebody comes to me, especially an
entrepreneur. Yeah, they have a particular
number, a revenue number, or a growth number and I ask them.
Let's make it ten X, whatever number, okay?
That immediately puts them in massive discomfort.
Right? So they would like that 10x.
Yeah. But they don't like how it feels
and they certainly see why they are not capable and I ask them
to list down all of these reasons why they cannot do that.
Yeah. Why are you chasing for 2x?
But not 10x. Let's turn all of the reasons
and then as a coach, if I work on all of these reasons, Once
and help you become better at that, then the growth that you
will have will be massive, right in the short term, it might
produce some anxiety, some difficult moments, but if I see
long-term like 5 years, 10 years, that will be massively
transformative for your company, for your organization, for your
leadership and your own belief in yourself, will go up.
So massively because instead of doing two x, you certainly
managed to do an X. And even if that person fails in
10x, they're still land up at 5x or 6x.
X, which is much better than the 2x, which they were aiming for
earlier. Yeah, I get that kind of can
bring them exoti on the short term because you basically lists
out the challenges overcome the obstacles that they need to work
on, right? But for them to first of all,
see what they are that already, visualizes it and that makes
them tangible to work on as well, which means they probably
will work on it right before you can actually act.
You need to know what's out there, right?
First technology. And then you can act accordingly
and overcome something, but the act of visualizing it or writing
it. Tone that makes it very
tangible, what it is to a person and I love how you say that from
your role as a coach you're not feeling that in, right?
You are allowing that person to derive it from themselves to
derive it from their own context, and to put that on
lists, and I'm assuming you're not judging, you're not doing
anything you're like, okay, now we have a list, we know what to
work on. But from a coach role, you
really allow a person to realize what they already should.
I mean, it shouldn't be should realize, but to realize what
they need to do to overcome things, I guess in their own
Challenges that they face. Yeah.
So there is obviously no judgments.
Yes, there is no - sir. Exactly.
Even what we normally call is negative emotions or
uncomfortable. Feelings.
Yeah. Are very much part of Being
Human. Exactly.
I did we would not have survived and evolution has brought us to
become the like, the most dominant species on the planet.
Yeah. Which includes fear, which
includes anxiety, fear is a signal that there is danger.
Yeah, if we don't fear, danger, if you don't feel fear, If we
don't experience danger, we would all kill ourselves.
Now, something or the other, right?
So all of these emotions, which feel uncomfortable, have had a
feud role in to play in our Evolution as a species.
Yeah, the thing is - it's all part of Being Human.
Once you realize that that takes away the weight of it that takes
away that judgment out of it and you see that, okay?
I am blaming myself for, I am feeling guilt or I am feeling
shame. Now, how do I deal with that
without again, building tiling up one emotion?
Over. All right so we feel angry and
then we feel bad about being angry and then we feel guilt
about that. Alright, so you see how emotions
pile up and all of these negative emotions if we stop
calling them - the piling up will actually stop.
Yeah. So sometimes you have to peel
down layers but the layers can itself be reduced if we don't
pile up over one another. And if we are really open right?
I am angry. I'm scared.
There's nothing bad about it. Yeah is nothing wrong about it
and as from an organizational perspective, can Create a space.
We talk about diversity. We talk about diversity in the
kind of people we talk about diversity of opinions but we
don't talk about diversity of emotions.
Yeah. Can we create a space which is
diverse and inclusive enough that people can come in and say,
I am scared? I don't know what to do, right?
I am losing control, right? I am feeling a tremendous
anxiety, and can as Leaders. Can we create a space to include
all of that, which will actually make it easier for those
emotions to be processed? To be dealt with, because they
are part of Being Human. Yeah, exactly.
If the space doesn't allow for that, then people will
internalized and that will lead to anxiety and you have the
different different ways of how it will show itself right in
their work or in how they communicate with others or even
in the in their personal life, right?
It bleeds. Through your personal life, your
work life balance. Anyway, I like that.
We should have a space that is open enough to discuss these
things, right. I put it on their openness, kind
of the openness of emotions and being Self and seeing what
scares you, what frightens you, what you're afraid of what
you're angry about based on the context, but the environment
needs to be there, right? And the only way the environment
gets there is through a collective of people but also
through the leaders that exemplify how it should be.
And if the leaders don't exemplify what the environment
should be, then the environment never going to reflect that
either. Absolutely, the best way to lead
is to lead by example. Yeah, exactly.
And we went through a lot and I love the things that you're
saying with regard to To your coaching and the way you make
people realize, right? You just mentioned, you're not
judging. There's no negativity.
If we have emotions they're just emotions, right?
That already off loads and relieves a lot of people have
their own internal thoughts. But how do you get better and
coaching? Like is that also a thing that
you pick up a bunch of books, you read about in your start
practicing and you also get coaching by your coaching or if
if we're talking about you personally, how did you get
better at coaching other people and making them realize the
things they need to do to overcome their own?
On, yes, yes. Oh, it's on all of those levels
are having a coach, but also going through multiple coaching
schools again on about coaching as a profession.
Yeah, learn about coaching as a competency, which you can learn.
And then practicing just like getting on a bike getting into
coaching conversation and then realizing that you didn't do a
good job. Yeah.
And then doing it over and over again and integrating what you
are learning from the formal training or education and then
reflecting it back with your coach.
Yeah, it's Is a process. It's a lot of internal work as
well. I think with many other skills,
right? You can you can be angry or you
can be having a bad day but still be a good surgeon or still
be a good mechanic. Yeah.
But with coaching or leadership unless you are very settled,
very calm. It's very difficult to be a good
coach, or a good leader because it shows up because it's also
integrated of our emotions are so integrated that if I am very
angry, even if it is something at home, it's very Cult for me
to present a very joyful face at work.
Exactly. Can fake it for a while, but
then people can sense it? Yeah, there's always that thing
that I don't know what it is, but people can sense it, right?
If it's your body language of the things that you're saying
that are slightly different than what you normally would say,
they will find that something is there?
And if you don't talk about, if you don't think you're open
enough about it, people will kind of poke holes through that
and some people will call you out like your coach did when
there's something your throat that you're talking about,
right? Allow you to Open up about that.
Do you think leaders and Leadership should also have in
their the skills that a coach should have?
Like, do that? Do those aligned?
Because I feel like at some point, they do right?
They do need to listen to their people be open and honest with
regards to themselves and be open and honest and exemplify
what a safer environment should be.
Those are both there for coaches, as well as Leaders.
Absolutely. So every coating skill is also a
leadership skill. Yeah, because coaching is just
one component of being a good leader.
There are many other leadership skills, which you need to learn
but everything, which falls under the bucket of coaching is
also a leadership skill. Every leader would benefit out
of it, it would not cause any harm to learn how to coach, how
to listen. Yeah, I get the.
If we talk about leadership skills, specifically coaching,
is one of them. What would you say the other
ones are? Because I think communication is
absolutely going to be there. The way you communicate and get
people aligned behind your vision or what are some other X
there as well. I think communication is like
one bucket. That's it is a huge bucket,
right? It's easy to say communication
skills, but what does it mean? Okay?
Right. So I what I do is I broke down
Communication in two different conversations, yeah, which our
leader need to get skilled at. Okay.
Like so to give you an example, one, such conversation is saying
no. Yeah, right?
So unless you can say no, you will always be overwhelmed.
Yeah, you will always think the time is less or everybody's out
to get used to saying no is a very powerful skill because it
requires a Certain level of confidence, a certain level of
self awareness, self belief, be able to say no even to your
Authority, right? So that's just one conversation.
Another conversation is delegating right.
How do you delegate a not? Take everybody asking for help.
That's another conversation. Coaching itself can be called
one conversation. Yeah.
Another could be like thinking the positive or thinking about,
what could be done better when everything around you is - okay.
It is the, let's say in a, in a, in a recession.
Yeah. Yeah.
It let's say in a really bad time for a company, can there be
a leader? Who can think about the positive
and lift the mood? Yeah, if the energy of the team
of the company and all of those are conversational skills,
right? Storytelling?
Yeah. That's a huge skill for people
to learn. It's so easy to term everything
as Communications. But then you breathe when you
break it down into conversations, like what are
those conversations? And then even when we say
conversations when I say conversations, 90% of that is
listening. Not He speaking 90% of is that
is recreating that space because no matter what conversation I am
having, if I'm having it too, like, with the, with a focus
with a very determined, like, very clear focus, it will
produce a different effect. Yeah.
If I want to have a conversation which produces trust, I will
have to slow down, I will have to open up.
I will have to listen, I will have to smile rather than go a
step a step by step C exists, a very different kind of
conversation than we are. Facing really bad times.
Let's talk about what can we do, right?
Or we are letting go of some people, let's get together as a
team and processed at because we are all feeling sad.
We are all feeling anxious that kind of conversation.
Cannot happen in a very focused very determined.
You have to relax. You have to maybe move a little
bit backwards. Yeah.
And then create that space for us safe conversation, where
people can cry if they have two people can share a story of a
colleague if they have two depending on the situation.
Yeah. But every conversation has a
different mood or different energy, which leaders need to be
flexible. First of all, recognize and then
flexible to how to speak, how to listen and when not to intervene
exactly the other places when you should not intervene.
Yeah, that makes all sense. I love the breakdown in
different types of conversations because I think I'm a good
communicator because I've been doing this podcast.
I've communicated in a way that allows me to externalize my
thoughts in a better way that I would do otherwise write with
That experience in mind. But when it comes to the
conversation of saying, no, when it comes to the conversation of
delegating, I was already thinking there still things, a
lot of things that I can prove in there, but that also falls
under. As you mentioned, the
communication bucket, right? So you can be a great
communicator, but certain scenarios might still be
difficult for you. And when you're a leader you
just have a lot more scenarios to kind of accommodate for and
recognizing what, you're not as good as yet.
Also means you know what you need to work on to get better at
that? Which is really cool.
Yes, and that one last conversation which everybody can
have is asking for help when nothing else works.
Or when you don't have a clue, you can always go to somebody
and ask for help. Yeah, it could be a spouse.
It could be a manager. It could be your teammate.
It could be a coach, a mentor but a lot of people I see they
struggle inside but they don't ask for help.
Yeah, that's one last conversation.
Which everybody can have exactly given time.
Yeah. And a lot of people are open to
that, right? Right?
A lot of people love to help. I myself love to help but asking
for help makes you vulnerable, right?
Which by default. You don't want to be in because
that's what comfortable. But if you let go of that, if
you like go of it, being my problem and it's just a shared
problem, right? If it's a team responsibility,
then knee pointing out. The problem doesn't make it my
problem, it's a shared responsibility such as share
problems, or asking for help kind of takes the edge out of
that and makes it easier to solve it as a team then as well.
But you do need to take this top and Do it, right?
Because if you don't ask for help and you do recognize the
problems then is going to become a problem because you didn't
step up and ask for help in that way.
Yes. And as I said earlier, right,
it's an act of Courage. Yeah, and one thing we can do to
create that space or to make it easier for people to ask for
help is that whenever everybody anybody does that stool?
Stop them there and congratulate them or celebrate them for doing
this act of Courage? Yeah I do normally we just try
to brush it aside because it is uncomfortable but if I can just
Just stop and say, right, that you share this with me.
Thank you for doing that. I know that cannot be easy, and
that's an act of Courage. I appreciate your courage.
Yeah, that makes people feel good.
That creates a new culture. A new environment where these
kind of conversations now become the normal.
I like that a lot. I like that, man.
There's there's so many thoughts going through my head.
I love talking about leadership and coaching.
I love all this conversation flowed from your own journey,
and being a little bit more introvert, and even a software
engineer, I guess. So.
Also, being in coaching other people and really just giving
back to the people that also did that.
So you write paying it forward in that way.
Is there anything you still want to share in there?
I think a lot of leadership when we talk about is about giving
but you don't realize it like if I want my team to trust me in
the first thing I can do is to trust them.
Yeah, without proof or without evidence if I if I want to my
treat to treat me in a certain way then can I treat them a lot
of the things in leadership? If we talk about getting but
it's about giving, my company is not succeeding.
Yeah. Then instead of talking about
what a better strategy can I make to get my customers pay me
more. What can I serve?
How can I serve? So, in fact, this is where a lot
of people trip up at every time you're struggling with
something. Flip it around and see if you
can give it back first. Yeah.
And because in in economics, right?
If I see economical the business language, it's a lot about
giving its orbit transactions, but when it comes, Two people,
it's about giving first. If you listen to people, if you
give them that confidence, they give you back confidence and and
Leadership is not as I said, right?
It's not about a title if even if you have the biggest title
but other people do not give you that Authority.
Yeah, you are not a leader. Exact every conversation will
fall flat. Yeah, everything you do in fact,
and if you don't even have the title, but people give you that
Authority, then a leader, might say something and nobody listens
and then some Buddy in your team says and then everybody listens,
they are the real leader. And we have all been in teams or
the companies like that where somebody without an official
position has been very influential, that's leadership.
That's real leadership, and it's an act of giving only by giving
trust, giving responsibilities, you get that back.
Yeah. Yeah I love that a lot.
I 100% recognize what you say and that is starts with giving,
right and once people see that you give, right doesn't matter.
Matter what you are if you're not a leader.
If you're a leader on paper, giving is the first step in the
people trust you and they also give and if everyone gives then
the collective becomes better because of that.
Absolutely sure. So we thank you so much for
coming on. I'm going to round it off here
so we Gupta everyone. I'm going to put all his socials
in the description below. Check him out.
Thank you for listening and we'll see you on the next one.