Patrick from the future here, here's the deal.
We lost the video footage of the intro, so I'm going to do it
again. Hi everyone.
My name is Patrick Akil, and if you're interested in impostor
syndrome, healthier state of mind and the origin of a lot of
our insecurities. This episode is for you, joining
me. Today is Alex ostergard.
He's a life coach that helps people in Tech deal with
impostor syndrome and find inner peace and his job history on
LinkedIn is one of the best ones I've ever read.
It reads like a story, so check it out all his social Us will be
in the description below, check him out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode.
We're consultancy company and my unit is really flat with the
guards, the hierarchy. So I know I used to have one
people manager and one sales manager basically and both of
them are there when we do performance reviews, and they're
my managers, like I have to and always when I explain to this,
to people that like, why do you have to?
But that's the way we're set up and then they are responsible
for the unit and the unit has about like 55 Consultants.
Now we're trying something new because the people manager
stepped away which means we don't really have a people
manager anymore. And we're going to form what
they've called team leads. Now, I don't really like the
term teammate, but they're sort of people manager and
responsible for a group of people.
So a hand for maybe two hands, full worth.
And we're going through the interview process now.
And I'm like, I really like I'd really like to do this kind of
role, right? It would be coaching people
helping with personal development with performance and
more so well, being in a sense. Yeah, and I have in the back of
my mind, Find things that I would want to put into practice,
but they're not very theoretical.
Like I do a lot with regards to gut feeling and experience based
coaching, I guess. But what kind of resources have
really helped kind of you hone your own skills in that way.
Yeah, sir. I mean, there's many different
schools to coaching. So obviously doing coaching
courses, like a super helpful and it's different different
ones you can do. But I don't think anyone is
necessarily better than the other.
It's just, you know, just picking one and sticking to
that. Yeah.
But I guess we're where I've learned the most has been
learning to trust my intuition. So, you know, we have one most
of us have the answers Within When you can trust the process
and trust that, whatever question you feel like asking,
you just ask it and you can get, you know, with, with the person
you're coaching into that that state where you fully trust
yourself, and you, you're just just kind of flowing, and that's
where the magic can happen. And so learning to trust
yourself, trust your instincts, and trust your own intuition,
but that requires being present, it requires.
Yeah, getting into this, this calm.
Date and not not judging the other person, not trying to
respond to what they're saying, just genuine listening being
present and that's when you can get to that state said that to
that state. That's when you know you're out,
you'll find yourself asking questions, whereas out what,
that confirm? And then, you know, you'll help
the person see see life differently.
And that's where the magic happens.
So a mix of a mix of Doing some courses, but also just learning
to trust your own intuition. Yeah, I like that a lot.
I mean, the way you described like active listening in that
way and asking those right questions in that moment as
well. I'm assuming that factors into
the trust that you're building with that other person as well.
Yeah, I do. You do that?
Consciously that that is more intuitively for me.
Yeah. But what else would you do to
kind of build up a trust relationship with someone?
Well, so it's very much in the way you approach the
conversation. So, well, first of all, like, I
mean the small stuff like body language but just just being
present with the person like yeah, you know, really, really
active listening. Like you said, but you want it,
you want to build the trust in the way the way you do that is
by also just seeing them with zero judgment and so, so
completely removing judgment from the equation.
So, whatever the person says you you're not judging them any
point in your your your accepting what they say and
you're like tell me more and so So, you learn to build the
trust, by by not judging them. I think that's that's the key.
One of the key things in coaching is, is not judging
active listening, and, and listening with the intent to
understand, not, not to respond. Yeah.
But in the no judging, I can see how they can be helpful, but I
can also see how that can be hard in certain situations,
especially if you're, let's say, I'm in a team sense, right?
And I have people that I work with on a day-to-day And in my
mind, like a move. I'm a very, how do you say that
harsh? Sounds harsh?
Yeah. Well, they are very critical,
like, first and foremost of myself, and then also my
colleagues, right? Like, I like the dot, the I's.
If something goes, well, I'm like, we can still do this and
this. Yeah, and something I'm working
on this first giving out those compliments of what went well
before I go into my critique in that way.
But with that in mind like judging is a hard part of that
and to abstract that away in those conversations, I think can
be difficult. Well, how have you learned to
kind of adapt that? Well, I mean, you basically
touch upon it yourself. Is it starts by learning to not
judge yourself because I think there's this amazing quote by
brene brown or says, we tend where I need to find the right
one. But it's like, we, we tend to
judge in the areas where the most susceptible to shame.
And so a lot of time when we judge others, we might as well
be holding up a mirror. Yeah.
And, and like you said, like, Very hard on yourself.
So then you're very hard on the other people when your
colleague. So then if you work on judging
yourself, less automatically, you're going to judge people
other people less. Yeah, I like that but it's not
something I actively think. Like and it's really hard to
then like it's kind of my modus operandi.
This is who I am. Like I would think it's hard to
remove that because that I feel like is also part of the reason
why I've gotten this far in my career or this early on, On or
what have you is because of that kind of drive and criticism and
yeah, or drive to work hard. I feel like but I know it's not
sustainable. Yeah.
Exactly. Well, I mean that's that's one
of one of the biggest lies that many people believe is that
self-criticism is is an actual like, effective way to motivate
yourself and don't get me wrong, it does motivate you, but it's
not, it's not the most efficient way, and that's why you know,
where What actually is a more efficient way is
self-compassion. So is actually being kinder to
yourself. Yeah.
And and it's something that's very hard for us to comprehend
comprehend. Especially, you know, someone
like you, you're you're saying that you're, you know, you being
hard on yourself yourself criticism has is actually the
reason why your, where you are, where you are now.
And so I would potentially challenge that because Because
you don't know what you, where you would be if you had been
kind with yourself. That's one thing and then if you
look at it, Well, self, if you, if you look at two scenarios
where there's someone who's super hard on themselves and
someone who's super loving with themselves, like who's more
likely to start a business? Yeah, the person who if they
fail they just going to get told off.
They're going to get shouted at all the person who knows that
whatever they do, they're going to be more, they're going to be
supported and they're going to be loved.
And so obviously it's the Latin Rite.
And so what you don't realize is that with self Criticism you
might be holding yourself back from doing things that scare
you, you're less likely to do things because you're more
affected by the fear of failure and the consequences of that.
And so like you said, it's not sustainable because in the long
run, you actually might achieve less.
And so when you when you focus on self compassion and being
kinder to yourself, judging yourself less, it actually
empowers you to do more to try more things and, you know, if
you think about when we approach a problem from, From like
survival mode versus creative mode.
You're going to, you know, you're when you're creative,
you're going to find better Solutions you.
It allows you to see a helicopter view of the big
bigger picture thinking and so you might solve things, you
might, you know, solve problems that, you wouldn't be able to
solve if you were being so hard on yourself.
And so it's kind of cultivating this healthy environment within
you. That will ultimately allow you
to do more overtime. I like that a lot like I've
never seen it from. That perspective.
And when it comes to trying out new things, like I do get that
anxiety in that fear of failure. But also, because this is, by
been like my mode for so long. Like, I've figured out how to
deal with that. And then I feel like, okay, this
is kind of where I find my stride and this is where the
anxiety pops up. Like, I feel it.
My heart gets is beating faster, like I can.
I can hoist myself. I know exactly like the symptoms
and how to deal with that. But when it comes to being more,
Compassionate I feel like or beating more like I don't even
have the words for them that they're so hard for me.
I feel like how do you even start with that being more
empathetic towards yourself? well, there's many different
ways, but I mean, the main, the main one, you want to look at is
Get out and there's two ways I can, but it out.
Let's be let's see. Two different ways.
So the first one is you want to look at what's the reason for
this. Hmm.
And a lot of the time, the reason for this it stems from
like a belief that most of us have is that where that we feel
that we're not good enough. And so that that's a lot of that
what stems this being hard on yourself?
And I'm like, you know, where we all were all born into this
world. Being good enough.
Like when you come out as baby, you're just crying and pooping
and you don't, you're not worried about what other people
think of you. Yeah.
But then maybe when you're three years old, you're running naked
in the living room and you going around like what having the best
time and then someone says, go put some clothes on you're like,
oh maybe I'm not enough naked as I am.
Yeah, and then maybe the a few years later, the teacher asked
the question in class and you're like me I got the answer and you
say the answer is wrong and everyone laughs see.
And then, you know, shit, maybe I'm not good enough.
And then you, I mean, one of my when something that happened to
me was I I get a really good grade at school and I'm waiting
for my dad to come home, super excited to tell him and then he
says, oh what an you get better grade.
Hmm. And you know classic parent
responds right? But I remember back and and so
then you start cultivating this belief that the children That
you're not good enough. And and through confirmation
bias, you start seeing it everywhere.
You see, I see I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough.
And and the more the more you don't feel good enough.
The more afraid you are of people finding out.
And, and they booked it starts creating this kind of little
inner critic in a voice. In your head is constantly
telling you you're not good enough, you're not good enough
and you compensate you compensate by overachieving your
Say by trying to be a perfectionist you compensate by
doing super well in your career or working at these big big
great companies. And so that kind of satisfies
the need a kind of, you know, by criticizing yourself, you, you
push yourself to do more to achieve things, but then there's
this never-ending sense of is Never Enough, right?
And so it's kind of this. You keep pushing the goal posts.
Every time, every time you achieve something, and I'll
Canaan the next thing we'll make other Next thing.
And so once you can see that this self-criticism comes from
the belief that I'm not enough. Well then you can start
questioning that belief and yet realizing that it's not true.
So so that's, that's one approach to reducing
self-criticism is to change the belief that I'm not enough, but
that comes through a lot of introspection.
It's, it's like a lot of a lot of work on yourself and
questioning which is a lot easier to To do with a coached
and then with yourself. Yeah.
And then the second the second way, which is kind of also
linked to that is is taking care of yourself.
So it's through self-care. So When we, when we take care of
ourselves, take care of our needs.
Well. So for example some of my needs
are alone time. I need to have some alone time.
Another one is physical exercise.
Another one is quality time with my partner or quality time with
my friends or learning and growing.
And so when I am satisfying, these needs well.
And when you when you take care of yourself with good sleep,
good diet, you're essentially telling yourself that you love
yourself. You're telling yourself that
That you value yourself. And so, just by doing these
things, you know, you cultivate this sense of self love and of
self-esteem which means that then you become less critical of
yourself. And if you combine that with
this belief, that I am enough, and you can kind of do both of
those at the same time. Well, you become less judgmental
automatically with yourself, you become kind of with yourself.
And there's, there's also a link yet to Boundaries.
So when you when you say yes to something you're automatically
saying no to something else, right?
And so if you don't know what your needs are, then when you
say yes, something you don't know what you're saying, no to.
So you might be saying yes to a late-night meeting, but what
you're actually saying, no, to is physical exercise or quality
time with your partner. And so, what that means is that
your needs are going to be met and then you're just, you're not
going to feel as good about yourself and it's and it's, it's
just going against cultivating, this this well this yes
self-love and and Yeah, I really recognize that because lately, I
feel like I've been kind of in a slope, like, as you lay out your
your other things that you value, and the things you do for
self love, like exercise is one of them and I go bouldering now,
like, one at once or twice a week, but I used to exercise
more on a daily basis and lately TimeWise.
I don't know why, but work has gotten a bit more, and he say
that it's just gotten more in my life in the way that it was
before. Yeah.
Compared to the way it was before, and I do feel different.
Like, I felt few months back, I felt more active, but the way
that I've been working now more so Non-Stop.
And in overdrive mode, I feel like, yeah, I do feel the
consequences of that, and I feel like they're not lasting.
Or how do you say that? It's again, it's not
sustainable, but it's also hard to get out of that mode.
I feel like because once once I'm in a stride, I'm exercising
every day. I'm eating healthy.
I'm spanking time that I need to Work-life balance is good, it's
easy to keep that up. But once you kind of go like
life goes in a slope again, it's hard to get out of if you like,
well, the way I see it. Well, it's a balancing act.
You're constantly, you know, going back and forth, testing
trying. And like the way I look at it
needs they're like these buckets of water.
Hmm. So when all your needs are met,
so when you're, you know, you have this great work-life
balance, the buckets of fill and this when you're at your best,
you're the most - you're better at solving problems, you know,
you just feel great. You have you have more patience
but then once you some of your needs, start not being met the
the, but the water buckets. Get emptied.
Then you, you become less good at solving problems.
You become way more a bit more stressed.
You're maybe a bit grumpy, you'll be a bit shorter with
people and so it's realizing that there are consequences when
we don't take care of our needs. And a lot of the time I'm like I
I'm a recovering people pleaser. I'm going to still definitely a
people pleaser, but but we tend to put other people's needs
before our own. Yeah.
And we do that because it gives us a temporary sense of
validation. So it makes us feel good for a
very fleeting moment that the actual long-term consequence of
that is that it actually reduces Our self-esteem.
And so then we need validation, even more.
Yeah, more of it. Whereas, if you were better at
saying, no to people and, and, and taking care of your needs
first. So that the analogy of like on
planes, you put the mask on yourself before you put it on
others because you need to help yourself first.
So you can help others more. Well, you know, when you get
better that then that increases your self-esteem, which in turn
reduces your need to people please.
And so that creates like this, this Upwards positive positive
spiral, where you, where you just, again, feel better,
increase self-esteem, you become kinder to yourself, you become
less dependent on outside things to feel to feel good in myself.
Yeah, yeah. Just feel like I have to figure
out my stuff. Yeah.
But it's a balancing act. So it's like, you know, because
you'll get into a good Groove and then, yeah, maybe you might
overdo the physical exercise and then you neglect the alone time
and then or then you get to your overdue work.
And so we're constantly figuring this out but the key is just
being aware of your needs and being aware of like what you can
actually do to meet them and it's empowering because it gives
you way more control over how you feel and you become less
dependent on external circumstances.
Because at any point you can always ask yourself.
Okay. Which one of my need isn't being
met? Yeah.
And then you might say, I haven't done physical exercise
in a long time. Haven't I haven't had some time
alone and so, you know then you can set boundaries and tell the
people around you, it's like, okay I need I need some alone
time or I need to go out and do some sport because the impact is
that I'm not being present with you.
I'm being grumpy, I'm not being my best self and and so when you
learn to do that, You actually. You end up doing more stuff over
time because it's just a way more sustainable approach and to
living your life is regularly taking care of your needs.
Yeah, and, you know, if you're if you focus too much on work
and you're not taking care of your needs a one point, it's all
going to crash. And so, and so, it's really
about thinking long-term, and, and, and the best way to achieve
more of a time is to just take care of your needs.
May be slow down from time. To time so that you can speed
up. Yeah.
I like that a lot. I feel like after this
conversation or after I'm going to be directing, I want to write
them down because I do have in my head kind of what my needs
are. But I feel like if I have them
where I can see them, then I can also think of okay, what's
going? Well, what am I meaning?
What am I not meeting? Because also I feel like if I
don't like, take care of my needs time also flies by and I
feel like where'd the time go? Like we're like a week further?
Yeah and I feel or I have this Feeling of like on fulfillment
throughout that. Yeah and it is something I need
to work on. I feel like I can see how
because what people say they Journal, I have no clue what
they write about. But I'm also think that this is
what I would want to write about.
I feel like if I know what my needs are, then how throughout
the day I have met them? What I feel is lacking, so I can
actively and be more aware of. Yeah, what I need to work on
them as well and, and that's ultimately what it comes down to
is awareness. And and most of us, we've never
asked myself these Questions and we go around, you know, feeling
grumpy and not realizing what's going on because the that but,
you know, when you're aware of your knees, then you can
actually do something about it to meet them.
And and the best way like you said, writing them down because
then then you, you remind yourself of them because it's
life gets in the way we forget about stuff.
But then, if you have them written down somewhere, then you
can be higher that Chiron. You're more likely to meet them
more regularly. Yeah, yeah.
So too, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start doing that.
I mean, on the, on the way here, I was looking at your LinkedIn
post actually or not the post, but your LinkedIn profile.
And I don't think I've read through a profile with as much
joy as I really through their yours, but I don't know if you
did that on purpose, or if you've gotten that feedback, but
when I looked at like your work history, right?
Let the companies you work that. Yeah, you didn't say what you
did there, you said a lot about your journey there, and her
feelings there. And it was, it was really real.
I felt like and I got an Insight in your history more so than I
do when I'm researching other guests for example and this this
conversation. So first of all, that was
awesome. Thank you for that.
And the second part is something and is probably going to go down
into the company's you worked for.
But one of the terms you mentioned was like big Tech
tunnel vision or big guy and he's coming.
Is that something you came up with?
Yeah I did. Yeah.
You can you lay out what that is and kind of what the challenges?
There, I think the first time it started was, so I got an
internship when I was a student at Novo Nordisk, which the big
Danish pharmaceutical company and and the recognition and the
validation that I got from that and made me feel amazing.
And so I remember getting business cards made as an intern
for like, zero need them, but just so I could give them out
friends. And, and, and I had my badge,
when I was on the train, I was make it visible.
So the logo was there because it made me, gave me the sense of
Pride gave me a sense of validation.
And so, that's one of the first times that I started to identify
with the company that I work for.
Yeah. And so then I got a job at
Google and Javed Uber and it gave me this sense of like it
was because like I said the feelings of not being good
enough, something I had from my childhood will working at these
companies. Kind of gave me a shield of
protective shield that made me feel better about myself, or at
least kind of allowed me to hide these feelings of not being good
enough that I had. And so, I if I got to a point
where I was like, well now I have these companies on my CV.
The only the only alternative is for me to either stay at the
company or work at another big Tech name.
So like if that be Facebook or Amazon or whatever and so I kind
of had this big company tunnel vision.
Yeah, we're for me. The only, those were the only
options because if I if I went to another company or start up,
it would people would think. Oh he's as In.
He's, you know, it's a step down.
Step down step. Yeah, exactly.
And so, so that, that limited me a lot and it added a lot of
pressure, especially, you know, back in the day, there weren't
that many big tech companies in Amsterdam.
Yeah, and so, if I didn't, if it didn't things didn't work out, I
do. But then then I was screwed.
And so that's the third added. This huge pressure to do well
and Yeah, or like yeah, do well in the in those companies.
So, yeah, but I don't I don't think it's bad to like, where
you work and being proud of the company like you work with,
because you do cool stuff there and you're happy, right?
Yeah. But when does he get like toxic
in that way that you have that feeling of, I can't I can't get
away from this or I otherwise people look down on me as a step
down. Yeah, well that's that's when it
comes from an unhealthy Place. Yeah.
And so again, it comes back to this the belief that that I'm
not enough. and so, if you're, if you're kind of compensating
for these feelings of insecurity by by working in a place, by
well, it's when you kind of depend on external factors to
feel good about yourself, when you're putting your, how you
feel into the hands of something else so where you work or your
job or your, you know whether you're going to get promoted and
so it's you know, putting all these Putting your happiness or
basing, your happiness, or how you feel about yourself on
external things. And that's when it becomes
unhealthy because Because it's, it makes, it makes it work.
It gives a lot of pressure. I put a lot of pressure on you
to succeed and do well in these things and and like, most of us
have experienced like the is, like I said, the moving the
goalposts, it doesn't matter. You know, if you every time you
think are, then I'm gonna finally going to be happy.
All this will finally make me happy.
Well that that never never the case.
No, it's the end goal because you're putting everything on
external things to make you feel good.
And if Actually, I'm watch this documentary but I've heard it,
I've had a lot of great feedback on it is it's called the weight
of gold, okay? And it talks about how Olympic
athletes. So once they reach once they get
the gold medal and they still don't feel happy, the whole
world shattered because you know, that's there's no, there's
nothing further than that. Yeah.
There's the end. Yeah.
It's the angle and then if they are not still, not happy even
after that. Well then a lot of them.
Go into deep depression and what's left?
Yeah. Interesting and so I think your
question was yeah. Like that.
There's there's nothing. It's also good to enjoy your
place of work. But you know what, what's,
what's the difference between it being good and it being
unhealthy. Well, the unhealthy, the answer
is when, when it's coming from this place of lack as opposed to
this place of Action. Yeah, I get that.
Like, I know a lot of people that work in big tech companies
and I it's hard for me to say if they're happy or not but if
they're reading enjoying their job, like sometimes the way they
talk about it, I feel like there is something lacking there, but
then again, they are at a really amazing, big tech company,
right? And the benefits in the
compensation is amazing. So stepping away from that and
getting to a job that fulfills, the more is going to be a
trade-off, right? Because they might not have
well, first of all that statue Work out a big tank opening.
People might see it as a step down and question it.
Yeah, but in turn, they might be unhappy with the position.
They are at right now. Yeah.
And especially in this market, one of their seeing LinkedIn
posts and 10,000 people being laid off at a knight's notice.
I feel like it's very hard to then open up that conversation
and be like are you actually happy with what you're doing?
And even if they recognize that then what is the alternative?
Because they are always going to look at the company that they're
at? And yeah, Look for something,
similar with regards to. Yeah, they came from.
Yeah, I feel like it's really hard to get out of that tunnel
vision. That yeah.
Well and and that's, that's what, you know, a lot of my
clients they suffer with is is, you know, also When things are
going well and, you know, if you, if you feel deep down,
you're not enough, but things are going well and you keep
getting promoted or you get, you know, and a lot of the times
when things get hard, people will just put a Band-Aid over
the problem by. I'll get I'll switch companies.
So I'm not happy. I'll switch company or I'll move
to a different city. Yeah.
But but yeah. So when you have this kind of
progression and you feel like I'm moving forward, then it kind
of covers up these, these feelings of insecurity.
But then all it takes is just one event and that can be a bad
manager, or it can be getting laid off for not being accepting
a job interview and suddenly, All your insecurities will come
back up and resurface. And that's that's the
consequence of you again. Putting so much weight on
external factors to feel good about yourself.
And so, when I mean one of my clients, I mean, there's a few,
I have a few examples, but like one of my clients.
So she, she was working for huge tech company, famous tech
company had an amazing job like curb rash.
You've got promoted. Things are going Good.
And then she had a bad manager and and she started doubting
herself. She started doubting her and
abilities and so when we work together we realized that.
Yeah. All this was linked to this
deeper belief that she didn't believe she was smart.
She didn't believe she was was good enough.
And so, so being with his band manager had, you know, brought
all this stuff up. And so she was really doubting
herself. And she was afraid to speak up
and like a suffering from stress anxiety.
Because she was afraid of being being found out.
Yeah. And so then so we work together
and we we worked on changing these bodies.
We worked on on her getting to know herself better so that she
could start you know, trusting herself again and and knowing
herself. So well that she doesn't need to
be anyone else. And and realizing that actually,
this this came from from childhood because she had always
been compared to her brother and her parents had always said oh
you You're the smart one, you're the smart one and so she felt
this pressure. Yeah.
And and so it was it just a lot of a lot of pressure wears deep
down, she always didn't feel enough.
So we uncover these things. She starts taking better care of
her needs, like getting to know her values.
And, and also building up this courage and learning to do
things scared and, and just within a few months she
completely turned things around. And she, she actually, you know,
switch roles within the company because she Confident to do
that. Got, you know, landed on a much
better team, she got promoted and and just everything fell
into place for her and all that came from getting to know
herself and learning to trust herself and not putting all this
weight on external factors and how well she's doing and how
what how other people perceive her?
Or how well, they think she's doing.
Yeah, yeah, I feel like as A lot to do with introspection.
Like knowing what what you're there for know your values and
kind of the situation as well and assessing it, kind of
objectively. Yeah, because it's very hard to
do that. First and foremost, you're in
there. You're also with your own
insecurities. You can get emotional with that
way. It's easier to shut down like
it's just easier to neglect it. Yeah, rather than looking at it
objectively. Yeah.
And then it's, there's read this idea of when you're in survival
State, your kind of clawing to What to survive like you're not,
you're not you're not seeing the bigger picture you the way your
look at your problem is is is is going to be different than if if
you were in a good place and you could okay, I maybe I can do
this, I can do that. And and so it's hard to get out
of it. And and and, and that's why it's
it helps to like speak to people speak to friends or get a coach,
because someone can jump in there with you and tell you.
Okay, I list, let's figure this out together.
Yeah, as opposed to To you having to do it by yourself and
that person might be able to look.
Oh, look at this perspective and look at it from this way.
And you rely on the sure haven't seen it that way.
And so that's why it's why it's important to open up about
struggles like this. And yeah, and and not try to fix
it by ourselves because we, we rarely will be, we're not
equipped to fix it in the state that we're in because we're in
survival mode. So automatically, you're not
seeing things in a way that might help you get out of it.
Exactly. I think it's it's interesting
that everyone has their own insecurities, right?
And in different ways with different causes, whether it's
childhood or something that someone said and then something
happened, like I think I shared this with you in my intro call.
I used to, before I joined Stevia, I used to work at
another company and sepia Consultants were there and they
were the first people like coming out of uni that I thought
these people really know their stuff, like I go to them, they
instantly have an answer like these guys are legit and I was
like, okay, what does it take to?
To work with you guys. Like, at that company, they were
like that, you got, you gotta have, like, four or five years
work experience, like, that's the bar minimum before we look
at anything else, technical skills wise.
So then I left that company. And through recruitment agency,
they put me in front of this door, in front of CBS doorsteps,
and I was like, okay, let's try it.
I feel like and I got in and then because I had that
experience in the past, I was like, I'm not supposed to be
here, something happened and I'm in, but I'm not supposed to be
Because I didn't have that bar minimum, right?
And that always was in the back of my mind.
Like it's so weird that I got in because I wasn't supposed to be
here. I don't know what happened so I
must have made a mistake or something.
Yeah. And with that, in mind that was
always in the back of my mind. So when people would say
something they appreciated about me, I would kind of discredit it
more. So because of those
insecurities, because I had the feeling that I didn't belong,
and, and it took a long, long time before that actually Like
faded out. Yeah, a lot of conversations
with a lot of people learning about myself and what I had to
team other than like technical skills in that way.
But man it was a journey. And yeah, I feel that with new
people that they come in. I feel like they're going
through a similar Journey. Yeah, in their own way
obviously. And I just I'm I'm trying to
help I'm there for them to offer perspective and to help I just
sometimes don't have a clue where to start.
Like I feel like having a conversation is the Best thing I
can do. I think I'm a good listener and
I'd like to think I ask the right questions but from there
on I don't know what to do other than offering perspective in
that way. Yeah.
No sir.
I mean you can't help someone if they don't want to be helped.
Yeah, I think it's also up to up to these people to to reach out
and to try to figure it out whether that be talking to a
therapist or coach or reaching out to friends but yeah, well
that's the first thing I would say and then and then everyone
is on their own journey and, and it's like You're, you're you
overcoming that fear and overcoming the these feelings of
imposter is also part of what made you who you are today.
And so if you can Embrace that and and just, you know, see it
for the opportunity that it is. Yeah, instead of seeing it as a
bad thing and I will we all have these feelings.
Like it's I think there's 70 percent of people will feel like
imposters at some point in their life it's very common.
And it reminds me of one of my favorite quotes by Ricky
Gervais. See said the best advice I ever
see ever received is no one else knows what they're doing either
I really like that and so is true like none of us really know
what we're doing. I mean we can pretend like I I
know what I'm doing but like deep down and of us really
really know what we're doing on this planet.
Yeah. And and so when you can connect
with that then I find that quite reassuring and and, And, yeah,
so we're all on this journey. Trying to figure it out.
Yeah, I feel like looking back now, in the way I grew up, like
there were times where I care what people think of me and
dimes word and don't care at all.
Like, I was a person that throughout high school and uni,
I didn't have any social media Facebook, and on Instagram.
No Twitter. No nothing because I also didn't
really care about like having the highlights of other people's
lives always thrown in my face. I didn't want to share any of my
highlights, but all of a When it came to work, that's why I was
like, okay, I do care what these people think they're they're
more. So my colleagues and it's weird
because I didn't really use the care what other people thought
of me like cancer or more. So family, like some relatives,
obviously, but when it came to colleagues, obviously or not,
obviously all of a sudden that was real for me and I did care
and I held a lot of value in what they thought of me in this
kind of high pressure environment.
Yeah. Where I thought everyone's
really smart really good at what they do.
Yeah. I also wanted to belong in that
way. Yeah.
So that is the first time where I was like, okay, in this
environment, like it was really uncomfortable.
Yeah. Well then, and I might challenge
the fact that you when you say I didn't care what people think of
me for. I did care but then you avoided
the avoided in right now and and so because it didn't affect you
know where as then when you're in the workplace like it affects
you because they I guess, Colleagues, you know, you get
the feedback on whether you're whether you're good enough to
keep your job. Yeah.
And so there what they think of you becomes important because
it's, you know, it's linked to your ability to earn money and
an especially if you're attaching how some Part of
Yourself. We'll have to how well you're
doing. Yeah, well, well, then did they
influence that? They haven't, they have a say in
that. And, and so, so, it makes sense
that you would, you know, Put so much value on what they think of
you. Yeah.
That's a good point because I
wasn't being drugs. Yeah he were.
Yeah and and you said belonging and it because that's what it
ultimately comes down to is is a fear, the fear of judgement
comes from all the fear because if we judge like think of it
from an evolutionary perspective.
Yeah. If you if you get judged or if
you if if you're like Dean to not be good enough then you get
rejected by the tribe and you die.
Yeah, so from an evolutionary perspective, like it makes sense
that we would fear judgment because it's essentially fearing
death. Hmm, But but, but right now,
there is no danger of death like, so we, but sometimes, I
guess I'll bodies forget to forget that.
And we forget that if we do get judged, we're still going to be
fine. Yeah.
And so so yeah, that's just an interesting take on it as well.
Yeah. I mean, And for me it's it's
also interesting because like I do this podcast and I told you
before the show like my the person I started it up with set
out facilitated, everything you need.
And I raised my hand real quick, not think about any of the
consequences basically and a lot of my colleagues or new so or
more so new people as well, ask, like, weren't you afraid of what
people are going to think of you like judging your voice, or what
have you, and those thoughts didn't even cross my mind.
Like, I had so much fun throughout the process.
Special Early on because everything was new and
everything was being facilitated and everything was going real
fast that I didn't even stop and think of what if people don't
like the sound of my voice or anything like that.
Even I didn't even cross my mind which is like a I put put out
content for others to listen to and they also have a certain
feeling with that and can judge that.
Yeah. But it didn't even cross.
My mind, which is weird because it would be more vague.
I just throw something in the fold and I don't really care
what people think. I'm happy if people listen to
it. Yeah, But the feeling of being
judge, doesn't really affect me in that way, the way that it
does in real life and kind of a job sense in a work environment.
Sense. That's interesting.
And why do you think that is? Yeah, I don't know.
Like, I also had a conversation with an adult knows this well
chat about in a bit where someone said, they really had a
hard time asking for help at work.
And for me, I had no problem with that.
Because, again, I didn't really belong here, so it was obvious.
I needed help. So, for me, the step of Asking
for help was a really small one. I was like a I can figure it
out. It's going to cost me like 5 to
10 hours or I can ask someone in 5-10 minutes.
We're done. And I know what I need to do and
I can I can continue and be more helpful than I would be
researching versus actually delivering that way.
Yeah. And it's also some of the points
that my colleagues gave me as a vice because when I would go
into research mode and when I would shut down, that will be
the feedback that I would get. Yeah, you weren't really
delivering, you were more, so on an island by yourself.
We're in a team and we can do this together.
So I ask for help when you need it, but I feel like not everyone
has that some people when they will really look up to someone,
they feel kind of a hurdle in asking, for help.
Right. Yeah.
Because it affects them, it makes them come from a more so
vulnerable place. I just didn't see it that way.
I think like an imposter syndrome or feelings of floated.
It affects people in different ways and tell.
There's, there's a researcher code, think dr.
Valerie young. And she, she came up with the
five types of imposter syndrome, and so you have the, the
perfectionist. So, that's the one.
Everything needs to be perfect and not allowed to make
mistakes. Then you have the natural
genius. So, that's someone who and this.
This is what I could relate to is.
I'm like, when I was younger, I was naturally good at things.
So, I was good at sports. I was good at school.
Yeah. But then the problem with
Naturally good at things is that when you face something you're
not actually good at. It's all we have, right?
Yeah. And you avoid these things and
so you avoid the things you're not good at and so that's that's
another type than that natural genius.
Then you have The Soloist. So that's someone who never
asked for help, they do everything by themselves because
they're afraid like you said, being vulnerable and making them
look weak, then you have the expert.
So this person who needs to know everything about everything
before they start. Yeah.
And then you have the superhero which is Is the person who, who
just worked out Works, everyone and it's super, super hard and
so. So like, yeah, impostor syndrome
it can, it comes out in different ways.
And so, some people won't struggle to ask for help some
people. That's the worst thing they can
do. Yea, but yeah, I'll ultimately
it all comes down to this disbelief that I'm not enough
and the different experiences that you've had throughout your
life that have maybe made you afraid to raise your hand.
He made afraid to ask questions or more afraid to be judged by
others. So there's different.
It comes up in many different ways.
Yeah, just saying like, I had an amygdala on and it was about a
year ago and she said it has a lot to do with pride.
Yeah, basically, you feel to proudful to either say you don't
know or ask for help or put yourself in a vulnerable
position because of your pride and she's like you put that
Pride away, then we're all equal, we're all the same, we
can ask each other for help. It doesn't matter what our
position is or seniority. If you don't know it, the worst
thing you can do is be like all I know or about some nonsense
for other people to believe, or think you believe think make
them think that, you know. Yeah.
And it took a while and she says it has to do with pride and I
never looked at it from that perspective.
Yeah I think that might be a truth in there.
But similar to what you're saying people show their
insecurities in different way and their behavior also changes
based on what kind of their mode of And I is, yeah and it's it's
was supposed linked to the ego which is similar to Pride but
it's also, you know, we come up with different strategies to to
overcome this. So you know, some people will
like for example, one of my clients he was bullied when he
was in high school and so you know that made him feel inferior
that made him feel not good enough.
Yeah but then he created a strategy to help compensate
overcome that and that strategy was So always be strong, you
know. So he focused on always being
strong, never showing weakness. Yeah.
And, and okay, that worked because it helped him, you know,
get through life. But then actually there's that
that ends up holding him back because then he couldn't Express
his emotions or he couldn't show weakness.
So, he couldn't ask for help, ask for question, asked
questions and and so that actually ended up holding him
back. So we all have these different
strategies that we put in place. Stu to kind of protect ourselves
from from insecurities that the come for our childhood and and
those end up they show up now. Yeah, and like it's, there's
this funny way of looking at it. Is that We a lot of things,
something might happen when you're 6 and doesn't have to be
like this big traumatic events. It can be something as simple as
you know, like we're talking about is your your parent one of
your parents telling you, why didn't you get the better grade?
Yeah, and so in the mind of a six-year-old, so with the
knowledge and understanding of a six-year-old, you you interpret
that in a way that's like. Okay, my love is conditional.
So in order to get love from my parents, I have to succeed.
In life, I have to do well and so you create a strategy which
is like doing well. Like working in good companies,
getting promoted getting a good salary.
Having a house that essentially makes you feel loved by your
parents, but then, Now you're I mean I'm in my 30s, and you're
running the same program that was designed by a six-year-old.
So you're doing the same things to feel loved that was designed
by six-year-old. Yeah.
And and I don't know if you feel the same but when when I look
back on my parents and my dad for telling me why didn't you
get a better grade? Like I look back at it now and
with my understanding my okay, he just wanted me to do better
like yeah he had good income but a joke.
Directly and so because I understand the world.
But then at the time I was six and I don't I didn't have that
understanding in that knowledge and so I interpreted in that way
and I created this this strategy to deal with it or to protect
myself from it, but I'm still using that strategy I'm not
anymore, but a few years ago, I was still using that strategy.
Yeah. But it was designed by
six-year-old. So, I mean, it's ridiculous.
And so many of us we do that. Yeah, and we don't realize that
we're still running programs that we designed when we were
kids, but we had a different understanding of the world.
Yeah, I recognize that 100% like the the interactions you have as
a child and I didn't realize this either like you.
They're very unconscious. Right?
Yeah. And simple words that you just
might remember because you remember that instance.
Yeah. Doesn't even have to be a big
event or something. You just remember it because it
had an impact on you left and An imprint in your memory on that
way. Yeah.
Those change your behavior.
Yeah. Which is so strange.
Like a also makes me think parenting is really hot.
Yeah, exactly what. And it's not about blaming
because yeah, because every every parent comes with baggage
from their previous parents and they'll everyone's doing their
best, right? It's not about blaming, but kind
of understanding where that comes from and there's one of
like a coach that I that I follow his Goodrich live in and
he says, Even though he's one of the best coaches in the world,
he says like one day my my kids they will go to therapy because
of something I told told them with zero intention of hurting
them, Muhammad them. Yeah.
And so there's that you can't control that like as in its
we're gonna where you're going to mess up as a parent because
it's so complex and so hard and it and it takes nothing, right?
It takes just one comment and because you're dealing with
children who have a different understanding of the world and
they interpret things in different ways, then so easy to
to do something like that. So you can't, you can't blame
your parents because because they're just doing their best.
Yeah, yeah. I feel like, it's not right or
wrong, right? No, I didn't say what is right,
or wrong things just happen and they just happened.
Yeah, so then learning that accepting that and figuring out
like we just have to figure out how way to deal with it after it
has happened because you can't really prevent it from
happening. Exactly.
I think he's going to put your mind at ease as well.
Yeah. And it's part of is part of what
makes you who you are and you know it's it's it's the fun part
of life and then life has ups and downs and often it's in the
Downs that we learn more about ourselves that we discover
things about ourselves. And so Like it's in it's during
my break throughs or breakdowns that I've had the biggest
breakthroughs. Yeah, so I had to burn out when
I was super and so At the time, it was the worst thing that
could ever happen to me. But now I look back and I'm
like, I'm so happy that I happen because it put me on a different
path and it allowed me to see things differently and stop
looking internally for Solutions as opposed to depending on the
outside to make me feel good. And so yeah once you can start
embracing embracing these these parts of your life and learning
from them and seeing life is happening for you not to you.
Yeah, well then then you're more empowered.
R22 just live the life, how you want to live it and and and Find
meaning in these part experiences.
And and that's that's an empowering way to live your
life. Yeah.
It's the it's the joy of Life. Yeah.
Cool. Man, I want to round it off
here. Alice.
Thank you so much, man. This was a lot of fun.
Thanks, Patrick. It was really really cool.
Is there anything you still want to share with regards to the
things we covered anything? You feel like as left unsaid
now, I think we covered He much everything and like, yeah, I
mean I've got nothing. No, I always throw this curve.
Yeah. People so sorry about that and
that's the right element. Cool.
We're going to round it off here.
Thank you so much for listening. I'm going to put all Alex's
socials in the description below.
Check him out. Let him know you came from our
show. And with that being said, thank
you for listening. We'll see you on the next one.