1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,200 Hi everyone, my name is Patrick Akio and today I'm joined by 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,760 Samuel Bake, Chief Product Officer over at V dot IO. 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,760 If you've ever wanted to do something with AI and video 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,040 editing, you have definitely heard about V because they are 5 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:16,760 the biggest browser based AI powered video editing platform 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,560 right now out in the market. They ship Gen. 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,200 AI features. They deliver value to users like 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,600 no other and I wondered exactly how they did that. 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,040 Luckily, we touch on all of that and much, much more in this 10 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:36,000 conversation, so enjoy. I used to think that, you know, 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,240 strategy was really, really important and I needed to think 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,480 everything true and then everybody should work on the 13 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:47,640 things that I think or things that feel fall within my my 14 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:49,120 plans. Master planner. 15 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,320 Yeah, yeah. And I, I think that I thought 16 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,360 that because this is what people talk about a lot when they talk 17 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,320 about successful business, successful products. 18 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,360 But then when I started to look at, you know, what is the 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,000 reality, what gets successful within my organization, I 20 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:08,880 realized that very often I'm not right. 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,120 And that's a very humbling experience. 22 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,640 And now I'm like, OK, actually, maybe I do not know. 23 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,320 And maybe we should do things where people can come up with 24 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,040 suggestions and actually ship those so that we can actually 25 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,160 figure out what works and what doesn't. 26 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,800 That being said, there are a few constraints that I said. 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,240 So for example, you know, we've had people make video games 28 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,400 within Veed as a hackathon project. 29 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,360 Now that is really fun. It's so cool. 30 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:35,320 It's very cool. Yeah. 31 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,560 It is not something that is going to fly with our audience. 32 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,440 So we often tell people like, hey, this is our audience. 33 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,040 And these are a couple of themes. 34 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,400 So for example, the last one we did with the entire company, we 35 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,120 said make a video better with AI. 36 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,280 That's that's the theme and and make it and, and it can't be 37 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,520 like a proof of concept, it needs to actually work. 38 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,480 Yeah, and that was a great theme. 39 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,240 We got very different things and some of those things actually 40 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,400 made it into production as well. That's super cool. 41 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,240 Yeah. I mean, even the that's me, 42 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:07,760 right? Because I also love video games. 43 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,120 The concept where people just made a video game in, in Veed, I 44 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,520 would love that. And even that if, if I were 45 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,840 responsible, I would still try and figure out maybe, maybe that 46 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,040 could be like an April Fool's thing and then it goes viral. 47 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,280 Like it's still great. It's a great idea. 48 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,280 I, I think it's, it's great. A great. 49 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:23,600 I mean, we talk about room to play. 50 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,720 This is the this is room to play. 51 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,480 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. 52 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,080 Talk to me about how you've been putting then Jai solutions in 53 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,480 production because I feel like I've talked to many product 54 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,400 people, even people in startups and there is a different 55 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,520 challenge with doing that and making sure that you have kind 56 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,960 of the same production level readiness with Gen. 57 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,920 AI that you would have otherwise with software. 58 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,400 Yeah, I think, I think the, the real, the short answer she won't 59 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,520 like. And I think actually you 60 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,640 shouldn't try to get there because what I realized with 61 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,400 Gen. AI is that people they have 62 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,920 different expectations. They do not expect things to 63 00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:00,840 always be right. Like if you have ever used Cha 64 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,000 Chi PT, you know that it's really cool and magical, but 65 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,560 it's not always right. And you know that every couple 66 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,960 of months they're going to send out a new model update. 67 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,680 It's going to get better and it's it's going to be right a 68 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,480 few more times. And that is kind of the customer 69 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,160 expectation around Chen AI. So when we build Gen. 70 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,840 AI tools, we're not trying to obviously, well, well, we're 71 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,560 actually trying to make it perfect, but we are also OK with 72 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,120 it not being perfect. So that's one thing. 73 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,120 And then the other thing is like, OK, but if it's not right, 74 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,200 it should not break the entire experience. 75 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,480 So there should be ways to iterate on it, tell our product 76 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,560 that hey, this is not good, re prompt things, things like that. 77 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,560 So that's how we are trying to, you know, take care of that. 78 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,320 And I think actually the the next generation workflow around 79 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:54,360 video or AI generated content is going to be AI generates 1234 80 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,480 options for you. You tell it what you like, what 81 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,960 you don't like, and it iterates really quickly and that's how 82 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,240 you get to something you love. Options giving options is always 83 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,520 amazing. Options also come at a cost, but 84 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,600 in the end having the option from a user consumer 85 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,080 perspective, I love that you talked about consumer 86 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,040 expectations. Is that something that you did 87 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,640 market research on or how do you get to kind of that consumer 88 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,399 expectation and that awareness of that? 89 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,280 Yeah, Honestly, really hard to do market research on that. 90 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:24,120 Very expensive, takes a long time. 91 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,080 I think this is something where we just kind of felt the market. 92 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:32,480 We just noticed using other very successful products or things 93 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,360 that are kind of adjacent to video creation. 94 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,840 So think about like image creation and those types of 95 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:40,360 things. We noticed that this was just 96 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,400 kind of the the way people treated that. 97 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,960 So that's that's how we got to that. 98 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:46,640 And so far, we haven't been proven wrong. 99 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,120 Gotcha. I, I was interviewing and I'll, 100 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,680 I'll share this because I think it's valuable. 101 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,760 I was interviewing at YouTube, probably my dream job, right, 102 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,040 Because I do podcasting, I interact with the platform. 103 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,600 So product manager at YouTube, I biffed the interview. 104 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,320 I'm still this salty on that, but we'll put that separately. 105 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,680 And I asked the question, OK, how much access do you have for 106 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,680 your end users, right? Because me as a creator, I would 107 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,120 love to be involved in the creating process of analytics, 108 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:13,600 for example, or making YouTube better. 109 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,840 And they were like, well, we have a, we have a team. 110 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:18,040 And then everything goes to the team and it has to be approved. 111 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,440 And sometimes you get like a survey about actually talking to 112 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,960 people in an organization like YouTube and Google is a big, big 113 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,400 bottleneck. Like you have to go through 114 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,280 multiple hurdles. How's that for you? 115 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:29,200 How easy do you have access to your users? 116 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,560 So I think this is the reason why companies can beat Google or 117 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,840 YouTube or whatever at things. Sometimes people are like, you 118 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:38,120 don't want to compete with these large companies, but I think you 119 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,440 this is where you have a competitive edge. 120 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,440 We have tons of access to users and I think it's really 121 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,600 important. So when I started at Veet, we 122 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,120 didn't have much data and Saba, the CEO, was like, well, if you 123 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,360 don't have data, just talk to a lot of users and if you hear 124 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,440 something very often, it's probably the thing we should be 125 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,840 working on. I thought they was genius. 126 00:05:56,840 --> 00:05:58,640 It's super simple. Yeah, it's super simple, but 127 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,360 sometimes the smart things are very simple. 128 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,080 So we started speaking to users a lot and now everybody in 129 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,320 product, so every product manager, every designer needs to 130 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,040 speak to at least one user a week. 131 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,240 We have a user research team speaking even more, but 132 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,560 everybody needs to speak quite regularly. 133 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,640 And I think that just creates this muscle so that you can kind 134 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,000 of channel having a user at the table when you're making 135 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,600 important decisions. So there's one thing we do. 136 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,120 Another thing we do, which has been really fun is we have this 137 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:33,080 V feedback program in which we have a couple of power users in 138 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,440 our Slack. We can share ideas with them, we 139 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,920 can share prototypes with them, give them access to things and 140 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,480 get feedback really, really quickly. 141 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,000 Great way to kind of get those creators to kind of bond with 142 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,400 us. And lastly and this is I highly 143 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,360 recommend every company trying this. 144 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,040 We stole this idea from Stripe I believe, but we invite customers 145 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,040 to our all hands. So when we have the entire 146 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,480 company in a meeting, we interview one or two customers 147 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,200 and this, and everybody in a company can submit questions and 148 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,440 this really makes those users come alive. 149 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,960 We now have an idea of what our users look like, what they 150 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,560 value, and yeah, that just makes for better product decisions. 151 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,800 That is, I've never heard that that you invite your customers, 152 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,240 your users to your all hands. Like if if you talk about risk 153 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,520 and you're talking about control that can go anywhere, I feel 154 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,040 like. What are some of the insights 155 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,280 you've gained through doing that? 156 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,240 Yeah, I think, I think so far nothing has has gone wrong. 157 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,960 But what was really fun is to just ask people like, OK, So 158 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,800 what is the most time consuming making a video? 159 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,320 What are some of the pain points? 160 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,560 And very often we hear about pain points that are not 161 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,280 necessarily pain points in our software, but are kind of 162 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,480 adjacent to our software. And we feel like, oh, we can 163 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,480 actually maybe help users with this. 164 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,400 So for example, people often complain about forgetting their 165 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,680 lines. So we build a teleprompter. 166 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,760 Then people were reading from the teleprompter and they were 167 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,440 not looking into the camera anymore, and they were confused 168 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,520 about that. So then we build a feature that 169 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,440 uses AI to make sure that your eyes always look at the camera. 170 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,760 This kind of iteration you can only get from talking to users. 171 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,440 There's no metric that will show you these problems. 172 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,120 You really need to speak to users and they need to kind of 173 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,440 talk about their they, they will not say like, hey, I'm looking 174 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,400 in the camera all the time. Often they're, they're saying 175 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:24,880 other things. They're like, Oh my, my 176 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,720 recordings fail. And we're like, why? 177 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,840 Well, I'm not concentrated. I forget my lines. 178 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,159 And you ask why, why, why, why, why, And at some point you get 179 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:35,000 to this inside and build a feature for it. 180 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,760 Yeah, I feel like the the skill of figuring out what the user 181 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,320 problems are for me, that's incredibly valuable, right? 182 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:42,760 And I love the example that you gave. 183 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,520 If there would be a a prompter and I would have to look at it 184 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,880 and then I see myself not looking at the camera, then it's 185 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,960 useless, right. But then is that I'm not going 186 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,440 to be like, well, that's like you have to ask me why I'm not 187 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,360 using that before I say, well, that's the issue. 188 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,160 I would never tell you. Well, out of all the hundreds of 189 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,720 features you have, I don't use this one because of XY and Z. 190 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,840 Then I'm the expert. Exactly. 191 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,360 Exactly. So yeah, user interviewing is a, 192 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,000 is a skill and it's really hard, but if you do it well, you can 193 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,920 get fewer goals out of it. Yeah. 194 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,720 I mean one of the most fun teams I've been in was my last one was 195 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,520 at a bank where I feel like the engineering team really 196 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,320 understood the domain. Me as a product person. 197 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,680 I also took them to stakeholder calls, alignment things. 198 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:26,760 I made sure that the domain awareness was there. 199 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,240 It was in the sustainability field and people that get 200 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,520 attracted to that also really love that domain. 201 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,560 So there's there this inherent curiosity, but I feel like the 202 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,120 the kind of signals you put into place, right, having product 203 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,480 people do use interviews once a week or talk to users once a 204 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,480 week. Having used a research team that 205 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,000 does more of that, inviting users to your all hands. 206 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:48,760 And all of engineering is also there. 207 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,480 And they see that people become more and more aware of the 208 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,160 domain, and the better they understand it, the better they 209 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,960 can execute, I feel like. Yeah, 100% because like I 210 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,720 believe good product is like a ton of little tiny decisions. 211 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,800 Some decisions get made by a product manager, some decisions 212 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,960 get made by a designer, some get made by someone in support and 213 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,640 engineering. And all those decisions matter. 214 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,840 And I think if you get create that strong awareness about who 215 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,360 your customer is, what they care about, more people will make the 216 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:18,400 right decisions. Yeah. 217 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,320 Talk to me about trust, because from a product sense, even me 218 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,640 moving from software engineering to product, I was like, I can 219 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,720 see those micro decisions. And then because I was good at 220 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,360 that, I would sometimes still engage and I'd have to be like, 221 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,600 actually my team told me that. It's like, you're not really 222 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,280 software engineering anymore. It's like, yeah, like I had to 223 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:36,960 be like, yeah, this is your guy's decision. 224 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,560 It was hard for me to let go. And now I'm aware of that. 225 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:42,720 So I kind of fell and I, I got a mirror in front of me and now I 226 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,080 learned. But from your perspective, like 227 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,320 you've gone, I think high over more and more. 228 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,960 How hard is it letting the decisions just flow and putting 229 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,440 trust in the team? Well, I got to be honest with 230 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,440 you, it's very hard, like, because one thing I do not want 231 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,040 to do is tell people exactly what to do or what I would do. 232 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,160 No, that's just not a nice way to work. 233 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,560 There are details that I think are so important that I might 234 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:08,440 intervene, but those are I, I tend to keep at the minimum. 235 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,240 So I, I, I was struggling with this and then I realized, you 236 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,960 know, what I should work on is create the context, the 237 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,760 frameworks, the things so that everybody would make the right 238 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,080 decision according to my beliefs. 239 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,120 So that's what I'm working on right now. 240 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,960 Like I'm, I'm making sure that people understand what we value 241 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,920 as a company, what metrics we want to drive, what our users 242 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,600 care about, all those types of things so that when I'm not in 243 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,400 the room, they will make the right decision. 244 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:40,360 And to be honest, whenever I feel like a team went completely 245 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,400 off, off guard of the rails, I, I, I kind of asked myself what 246 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,760 could have, I could have done differently in order to, to have 247 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,280 them make the right decision. So sometimes there's these teams 248 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,320 that, you know, they, they prioritize the feature. 249 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,520 And I'm like, why would we work on this? 250 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,000 And then I asked the team, why would we work on this? 251 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,680 And I say, well, because this is important, this is important, 252 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:04,240 this is important. And I'm like, oh, wait a minute, 253 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,480 I have not told you that this is not important. 254 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,240 Or, you know, I've, I've not repeated this idea. 255 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,120 I have often enough. So those things really help. 256 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,600 Really focusing on the context, that's one thing. 257 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,480 And then in order to make this a good working system, one of the 258 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,080 things that we've introduced at Veet, which in the beginning was 259 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,320 not received very well, was let's review. 260 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:31,600 I, I sit with every product team every week. 261 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,240 And in the beginning people were like, oh, that's micromanaging. 262 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,120 You're 2 on top of things. That's not nice. 263 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,200 But now those meetings are 10 minutes. 264 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,120 We just check in like, how's it going? 265 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,800 Do you have any questions? Like what are decisions that 266 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:44,760 you're making that you want to have input on? 267 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,920 It gets, it goes really quick. Teams spend very little time on 268 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,680 reporting. And I have a sense of where 269 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:52,800 things are going. I feel chill and I can, if there 270 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,120 is a problem, I can at least voice my opinion in time. 271 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:57,560 Yeah. And I think checking in with 272 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,600 people is like super, super important, super important. 273 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,160 How do you do demos with regards to new features in the 274 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,120 organization or even outside? I mean, I see, I see what you do 275 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:07,000 outside. It's on LinkedIn. 276 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,120 I love it when you just say, OK, this is something cool and I see 277 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,680 you as a user using that. That's amazing. 278 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:16,200 But how do you go about demos? Yeah, demos are really part of 279 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,560 it. Like I think if you look at 280 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:23,680 building and one and when, when, what are the most rewarding 281 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:26,120 moments in building? It's the moment you can show 282 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,680 others what you're working on. So we love the demos and we, I, 283 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,480 I think we have a demo culture. Basically, when something is 284 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,720 shipped, whoever shipped it needs to make a demo in Veet and 285 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,720 I need to make a video because we're a video company, right? 286 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,520 Great way to also enforce people to work with, with our tool. 287 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,440 And we made, made this a competition. 288 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,880 So basically people need to make a fun video about the thing that 289 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,320 they've shipped, like a minute long. 290 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,600 And this means we have this select channel that is filled 291 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,080 with demos. And then every month we pick a 292 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,200 demo of the month. And then that person the next 293 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:01,760 month picks that demo of the month. 294 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,200 And it's fun because people get creative. 295 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,320 Everybody does it a little bit differently and it's just a 296 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,440 really fun way to experience our product and celebrate what we've 297 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,360 built. And then on top of that, I love 298 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,280 kind of yapping about our product on LinkedIn and stuff 299 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:17,640 like that. I also think it's really 300 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,640 important for me as a, as a leader of a company that helps 301 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,840 people create videos, to create videos myself. 302 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:30,080 So I anything that gets shipped, I make a video about and that we 303 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,200 ship a lot. So I make like one or two videos 304 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,000 a week now about the things that we're building. 305 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,640 Yeah, I mean, I I love it. For me, like as a person that 306 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,760 creates videos, like podcast is easy because I have someone in 307 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,280 the back, Jamie that does the, it does the camera switching and 308 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,920 everything. But I used to edit and for me, 309 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,120 editing and listening to myself speak on camera, that's how you 310 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,640 got to be a better communicator. Also feedback from other people, 311 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,960 they would be like, hey, you always do this thing where you 312 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,880 say XY and Z and I'd be like, I don't like that. 313 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,880 No, not anymore. So I would immediately 314 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:00,960 consciously fix that. And also with editing, I would 315 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,760 hit listen to myself hearsay, umm or not using a pause and I 316 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,880 would try and fix that actively. I became a better communicator 317 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,280 by editing my own content basically. 318 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,560 And I feel like I became a power user of whatever video editing 319 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,160 software I was trying to use because I edit video needs to go 320 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,640 out weekly. I try and optimize that process 321 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:21,640 out of the get go. I'm also software engineer. 322 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,480 So give me all the hotkeys, give me all the advantages from a 323 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,720 tool perspective. And if you have your whole 324 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,080 organization doing that, I'm, I'm assuming engineering does it 325 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:30,480 as well. They become better 326 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,240 communicators, they become better users. 327 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,880 They know user pain points because they are the user has so 328 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,480 many advantages it's ridiculous. Yeah, it's, it's, it's really a 329 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,880 no brainer and it's sad that we only kind of started doing this 330 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,480 two years ago. I feel like as a as a company we 331 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,360 would have been even further had we had we introduced that 332 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:49,560 earlier. Yeah, for sure. 333 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,800 I mean, you've been in different organizations and I feel like 334 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,040 Veed is B to C, right? Your consumer is the user and 335 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,800 that can go super scale basically. 336 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,720 I don't know how many users you have now, but how is it building 337 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,520 something that can reach this mega scale? 338 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,400 Yeah, I think to be honest, I we're B to C ish. 339 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,160 But I think our consumer are not people that are using it for 340 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:12,960 fun. Like the people we have a lot of 341 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:14,560 people using it for fun, but they're not paying. 342 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,240 The people that are paying are using V to do something for 343 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,680 their companies or, or, but those can be really small 344 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,960 businesses that can be creators, things like that. 345 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,800 So building for that scale is, is fun. 346 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:33,040 It's really fun because you need to the, the, there is quite a 347 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,040 widespread of things that you can do, which is hard with 348 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,800 prioritization, but it also is kind of energizing and, and you 349 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,120 let you see your product being used in very different ways. 350 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,000 So for example, whenever I introduce people to the product, 351 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,520 I always show them a couple of pictures of users that I've 352 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,760 interviewed. And I've designed these as like 353 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,840 Pokémon cards because I'm a little bit of a nerd. 354 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,720 And on those Pokémon cards, like one of them is a college 355 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,520 teacher, the other is a marketeer, the other one works 356 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,599 in learning and development, and the other one is a startup 357 00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:07,079 founder. And it just shows you how wide 358 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:09,079 the variety of users are using our product. 359 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,079 What unites them is some of the jobs that they want to get done 360 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:15,160 with our product. But it's been really fun and 361 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,800 interesting to see the kind of videos people are producing. 362 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,880 Yeah. I can imagine. 363 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,560 I mean, for me it'd be really fun because video and concert 364 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,720 creation has become this passion. 365 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,280 I don't know if it was a passion of yours kind of getting into 366 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,560 this, but where your personal passion aligns with what you do 367 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,640 on a day today, that's magic. Like that's what I would wish on 368 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,200 everyone. That's the best feeling. 369 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,120 And I feel like with people that are actually, it's expected of 370 00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:42,960 them to create content and to use videos, they will either 371 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,480 realize that this is not really a passion of them. 372 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,920 So then that expectation doesn't really fit with them, doesn't 373 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,160 really glue well, or it's what they love. 374 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,040 So it's like amazing. Yeah, Yeah. 375 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,800 For me, it's definitely become a passion. 376 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,800 And I also feel like when I speak to users like you have 377 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,640 this, you can say like, I feel you. 378 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,120 I feel you when you need to take that take for the 10 time. 379 00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:07,600 Like you, you've recorded everything and you realized your 380 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,760 camera was out of focus. I feel you. 381 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,160 And that's like such a nice form of user empathy that is just 382 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,480 only there when you really feel, feel it. 383 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:17,120 Yeah. Yeah. 384 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,760 I mean, I, I could put myself into the kind of ears of the 385 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,600 listener and think, OK, it's really lucky to have this 386 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,480 platform and access to users and, and kind of this tangible 387 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,200 software, right? Video editing. 388 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,000 It's genius how you've done it in companies. 389 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,680 But when I think of my own software or when I think of my 390 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,160 own product, I don't have that. Like what can I still implement? 391 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,840 If you're in an internal organization, you have a product 392 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,320 in internally, they're the customer. 393 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,640 It's not customer facing or it's not B to B. 394 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,080 What are still things that you can take away that you can 395 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:49,920 implement in your own product? What advice would you give? 396 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,720 Yeah, I think, I mean, you can still talk to users or try to 397 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,000 figure out what they're, what they, what they care about. 398 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,920 Like I think in a way, sometimes it's nicer. 399 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,640 And I'm kind of contradicting what I said before, but it's 400 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,400 nice if you're not the user because if you are the user, 401 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,520 your opinion becomes a little bit more valuable than some of 402 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,040 the things that you're hearing when you are not a user. 403 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,480 You need to do more kind of academic style research and 404 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,080 really get into the depth of what the people want. 405 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,880 And sometimes there are, you need to get creative here. 406 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,120 Like some people do not have access to users of their 407 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:29,280 product. So then you need to be like, OK, 408 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,120 but where do those users of my product, where do they spend 409 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:33,600 their time? What do they listen to? 410 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,720 What do they watch? Are they on Reddit? 411 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,840 Are they listening to podcasts? And you can still kind of 412 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,120 channel what what motivates them through those ways. 413 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:46,840 So I think there's many different ways to kind of learn 414 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,800 from your users, even if you do not have direct access. 1 cheeky 415 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:57,040 1 is look at your competitors. So I think competitors kind of 416 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,920 share a lot of data publicly about their products. 417 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,520 Yeah, unintentionally. So if you want to know what 418 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,480 features make money for any product, you go to their pricing 419 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,600 page and you look at the top three bullet points. 420 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,720 Those are the most driving for for revenue, right? 421 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,560 So like, there's a lot of ways that you can get creative to 422 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,320 still get that access to people even if you can't speak to them 423 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,040 directly. Yeah, yeah, I love that. 424 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,360 I mean, I've never thought of it, but indeed not being a user, 425 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:25,160 it gives you a different viewpoint. 426 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,280 How do you think of how product management has evolved? 427 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,480 You me touched on kind of technical product managers 428 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,480 versus domain experts from more traditional business analysts, 429 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,080 people that don't really know about the software. 430 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,720 And for me, I only have the background I have, right. 431 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,400 I could really leverage software engineering, take stakeholders 432 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,960 with me and talk about, OK, this is what good engineering looks 433 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,520 like and we're not there yet, so we need to focus on XY and ZI 434 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,640 really relied upon that. And I could not see me being 435 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,040 effective as product managers, as product manager without that 436 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,160 knowledge yet. There's a lot of people that are 437 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:57,920 effective without that technical knowledge. 438 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,240 So there is a way. What's your view on kind of 439 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,040 product managers and the technical expertise? 440 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,280 Yeah, I, I, for, I've, I've had many different views and, and I 441 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,600 think what I, what I'm afraid of is like dogmas. 442 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,360 So like I know at Google they only hire technical product 443 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:14,160 managers and I think that's great for Google maybe. 444 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,640 But I also see Google really struggling, for example, to 445 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,320 market their products. And I think that is a result of 446 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,960 this technical focus. So I believe that any product 447 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,880 manager being into your team, you need to think about, OK, do 448 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,920 they have an edge? That is different than like any 449 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,400 product manager. So that can be a technical 450 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,720 background. But for example, at Vet, one of 451 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,320 our most successful product managers, she has a background 452 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,760 in creativity. She used to be a photographer, 453 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,160 then worked on a few creative apps and then became PM at VET. 454 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,200 And I think that's another example of somebody that has an 455 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,840 edge that is very different from a technical background, but can 456 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,840 really help kind of change the conversation and and bring in 457 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,360 unique insights that we don't have in in the team. 458 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,200 So I think when thinking about bringing on product managers, I 459 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,240 think that's one of the things that that that we index on. 460 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:07,920 Yeah, got you. How has for you product 461 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,760 management changed with regards to AI? 462 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,200 We touched on AI, putting it and embedding it in your software, 463 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,520 the thing that is your bread and butter that you deliver to 464 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,640 customers. But there's another angle with 465 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,920 regards to productivity. I've talked to many engineers, 466 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,840 there's many opinions on using AI code tools. 467 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:24,840 People are definitely saying it's here to stay. 468 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,680 So engineering is evolving. How's product evolving with 469 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,480 regards to personal? Productivity yeah so one thing I 470 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,560 noticed when AI kind of chechi PT boom started was that I was 471 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,560 getting sent a lot more documents I don't we have a 472 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,160 saying in V too long didn't read TLDR or TLDR culture. 473 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,800 I don't care about long documents, stop sending them. 474 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,240 So I thought that was a really bad thing. 475 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:48,960 People were like, oh, it's easier to write, so I'm going to 476 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,760 write more. That's like the opposite of what 477 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,360 you should do. Now what I see is I see AI 478 00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:58,360 helping us in two ways. One is as kind of like a 479 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:02,360 sparring buddy for PMSPM can be quite a lonely job. 480 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,160 And everybody that you often spar with, they they want to get 481 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,200 something out of it. So if you speak to engineers, 482 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,600 they maybe want to get more engineering time on the project 483 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,280 that they really value. And if you speak to design, they 484 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,440 care more about little details that they want to get into the 485 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,000 product. So engineering can be a bit 486 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,760 lonely. And I think actually ChatGPT or 487 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,800 Clod or whatever LLM you use can really help you kind of get your 488 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,760 ideas across and make develop your ideas even more. 489 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:32,720 So I see some of my best PMS really using LLMS for that. 490 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,000 And I think that is great. And, and, and the quality of 491 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,600 ideas kind of increases. So that's that's one thing I 492 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,560 really like. And then the other thing I see 493 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,280 is that one thing anyone in a company should think about is 494 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,680 like, how can I make my idea more tangible? 495 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,440 How can I make it more visual or more, yeah, more interesting? 496 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,960 How can I give the idea legs? And I think now with all the 497 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,800 tooling, PMS can really improve that. 498 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,200 So they can make prototypes, they can make mock ups way 499 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,280 easier than before. And that's something I'm seeing 500 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,080 a lot. So for example, we build an AI 501 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,480 feature and then some of the people on the team, the PM and 502 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,920 the designer build a tool to test out different prompts for 503 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,480 that AI feature. And that is amazing, right? 504 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,840 We're saving engineering time. We're, we're, we're having the 505 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,600 PM and, and the signer think about prompt engineering. 506 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,680 Super, super cool. So I think that is giving me a 507 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,880 kind of a, a tiny view into what the future is like, because I do 508 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,040 believe that in the future, anyone in the team is going to 509 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,040 contribute to the code in a different way. 510 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,600 And I think I'm very curious to see where that is going. 511 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,280 Yeah, yeah. I'm very curious how 512 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,880 organizations are going to be set up like that to be able to 513 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,160 do so, right. Right now it's it's easy to 514 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,400 create and from a product end, sometimes you need user 515 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,040 research. You have many hats on, to be 516 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,200 honest, depending on the accessibility of people and if 517 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,040 people have like a discipline, you can do anything basically. 518 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,280 And if you don't have those people, it's up to you to kind 519 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,280 of fill that gap because it's still valuable. 520 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,200 Having a sparring partner or something, what you can also 521 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,040 call kind of an expert to bounce ideas off of is incredibly 522 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,200 valuable. But I've also noticed I become 523 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,600 lazy because critical thinking kind of goes down the drain. 524 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,400 I accept what I see there. So there needs to be a level of 525 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,640 discipline, I feel like, and it's still a responsibility. 526 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,240 Yeah, I mean, I think I, I read this study came out a while 527 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,080 back, I forgot what the name was, but basically people that 528 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:33,360 use LLMS to write essays, they become worse at writing essays 529 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,440 even if they stop using the LLMS. 530 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,560 So definitely there are some concerning things around this. 531 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,240 I think we're going to sort that out. 532 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,920 But yeah, I, I can definitely see people get more lazy. 533 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,320 And I think then for me as a leader, I just should be razor 534 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,080 sharp there and be like, OK, if not done your homework, do it 535 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,320 again. And we'll we'll see. 536 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:54,560 We'll see you next week. Yeah. 537 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,640 I mean, that's the that's the responsibility, right? 538 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,000 You have the nice part and the the thing we have to actually 539 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,160 put your foot down. Yeah, I get that. 540 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,200 We talked about putting Gen. AI solutions into production and 541 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,280 I really wonder how you decide in the end what is going to be 542 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,560 valuable or what is more of hype and what is not necessarily 543 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,360 relevant for the product, but still looks interesting. 544 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:16,240 Keep an eye on how do you categorize kind of what you see 545 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,480 from features that are all of a sudden available. 546 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,600 Yeah, this is really hard. Prioritization in this age of AI 547 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,480 is super, super hard. And one of the things that is 548 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,320 very interesting about AI is that we're moving from toy to 549 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,440 tool. Like there's a lot of fun. 550 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,480 Like, oh, you can make this weird meme now and like the 551 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,040 anime memes a while back, but those really drive usage. 552 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:43,960 And then slowly but surely people are like, OK, I can use 553 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,000 it for this, but then I can also use it for this. 554 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,600 That is very interesting for my business. 555 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,160 So that means that as a company we need to be focused a little 556 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,480 bit more on fun and toys and making those things. 557 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,360 We realized that one thing that would is really important with 558 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:03,280 AI is speed of shipping. So people want to buy tools from 559 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,440 products that are moving ahead. And it's almost like making hit 560 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,040 music. You just got to make a lot of 561 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,240 hits. So we're really prioritizing 562 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,120 things that are easy to build, like things that we can build in 563 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,440 a week or two weeks. That's one way we prioritize. 564 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,080 And then the other way is can we be the first to market? 565 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,760 Can we build something that is unique, whether that's bringing 566 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,440 a famous AI model like Google VO to market for the first time or 567 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,600 bringing something unique that is very that we only can do on 568 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,920 our platform. And, and those two things are, 569 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,800 are kind of how we prioritize right now. 570 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:38,400 And to be honest, we find it very hard to say. 571 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,160 This is just like with music, I guess this is going to be a hit. 572 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,280 This is not going to be a hit. We rarely know. 573 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:48,000 But then, you know, if you ship 10 things, if you ship fast, one 574 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,160 or two of them are going to be hit. 575 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,320 Yeah, I really like that approach of shipping fast and 576 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,840 then delivering. And proof is in the pudding, 577 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,800 right? You will see once you deliver. 578 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,240 Otherwise, we're going to have endless discussions on yes or 579 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,040 no, and if it's a yes by default and then we touch and we figure 580 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,080 it out on the go or we steer or we actually put in the trash 581 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,480 because it turned out to be trash. 582 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,160 Well, whatever, we move on to the next one. 583 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,440 The ones where you mentioned, OK, if we can do something that 584 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,120 has never done before, I feel like that has kind of a higher 585 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:17,320 risk, but also higher return where it's a bigger bet, right? 586 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:18,640 You don't know if it's going to be valuable. 587 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,120 It's still still in the same mindset, but there's also 588 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:23,040 probably more effort into that because it's not going to take 589 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,880 one or two weeks likely. Yeah, yeah. 590 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,400 That's correct. And there you have to have a bit 591 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,920 more insights and a bit more more belief and confidence. 592 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,600 So we're trying to to find that confidence somewhere and then 593 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,280 just build it. But yeah, I think what we're 594 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,320 seeing is that novelty, newness is so, so important right now. 595 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,480 So we're trying to figure out, OK, right now you can make a 596 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,160 video that looks very realistic, but the person cannot say 597 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,840 anything. Can we build something where 598 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,040 they can say something stuff like this or we've seen this 599 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,160 trend in like most videos are basically moving images, right? 600 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,480 So we can look into the future a little bit by looking at what 601 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,360 text to image is doing in certain startups and then being 602 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,280 OK, we make a video version of that. 603 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,040 Yeah, I like that a lot. I mean, the the pitfall that I 604 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,600 see and some organizations do this well and some organizations 605 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,600 just struggle with this. If speed is like the mantra then 606 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,360 and someone said this and I love it. 607 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,000 It's like even marathon runners, they don't go Sprint after 608 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,760 Sprint. Yet in this framework that we 609 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,160 have, we only Sprint and then especially if speed is also the 610 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,600 name of the game with the rest of delivery to production. 611 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,160 And if it fails, you just get up and you move on to the next. 612 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,760 People really might get kind of burnt out in this fast-paced 613 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,480 environment. I also heard you talk about play 614 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,240 and there's also play in the organization, video creations, 615 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,840 hackathons. How do you balance this very 616 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,320 much so delivery oriented speed mindset versus also the 617 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,760 resiliency and still having fun part? 618 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,800 Yeah, I think, well, first of all, I think people 619 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,400 underestimate that if you build something and people use it, 620 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:55,640 that's the best feeling in the world. 621 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,840 So I don't know if there's a running analogy for this, but 622 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,600 like I, I, I rarely see people being super excited to work 8 623 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,320 months on an internal migration. There are people like that. 624 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,040 And I love that, that we have those. 625 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,600 They're very rare. Most people, they build 626 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,080 something, they see people. I mean, that's just a magic, 627 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,680 especially with a creative tool like feed. 628 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,560 So I think just in general, it's kind of fulfilling to work on 629 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,000 these things. But what we hear a lot in our 630 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,200 organization is like, hey, we've built like 10 fast things, but 631 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,280 we need to do some maintenance work. 632 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,080 We need to make the experience more smooth and things like 633 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:30,880 that. So we try to find a balance 634 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,240 there. We have some new things that are 635 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,720 really exciting. That's where a huge portion of 636 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,200 our team is, what a huge portion of our team is working on. 637 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,160 And then we also have initiatives that are a bit more 638 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:46,200 longer term, things that we know are also going to be important 639 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,880 268 months down the line. Like there's a few things that 640 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,640 people use V for that just need to be rock solid. 641 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,960 And there are things where we know, okay, if we built this, a 642 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:57,480 lot of our users are going to be happy. 643 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,760 So for those bigger initiatives we use, we leverage research a 644 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,000 lot and we do a lot of user research and we do bigger 645 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,600 projects, bigger bets. And then on the other hand, 646 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,640 we're like, let's just see what sticks. 647 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,880 It's not that simple, but a little bit like that. 648 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,960 Let's just see what sticks. And then when we know that 649 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,440 something sticks, we'll double down on it. 650 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:19,760 So we saw that, for example, two years ago, we built a ChatGPT 651 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,800 plug in. We build in a day. 652 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,040 We thought it was going to be nothing. 653 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,400 It was a huge hit. People loved it, VGPT. 654 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,240 And then we were like, oh, OK, well then we're going to build 655 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,040 this out. And then we build it out. 656 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,440 And then people using that plug in came into the product and 657 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,600 they were like, oh, but we want the product to be this and not 658 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,040 that. And that helped us inspire like 659 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,720 a lot of long term work as well. Yeah. 660 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,560 I love that we touched on feedback and more so the 661 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,040 qualitative feedback. You also mentioned product data, 662 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,600 product analytics. Has product analytics really 663 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,520 evolved with regards to Gen. AI and kind of the metrics that 664 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,080 you look at or is it kind of still the same and it holds true 665 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,520 with regards to new functionality, AI or not? 666 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:04,320 I, I think what is harder with AI is that there's trends go 667 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,880 faster. So we used to look a lot at 668 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,160 search traffic, for example, when it comes to video, and we 669 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,240 would see like, oh, podcast video, that's a new trend in 670 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,840 search and that those trends would like slowly build up. 671 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,160 And we would be like, oh, let's build a feature for it. 672 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,200 And then we instantly knew we would have distribution. 673 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:27,200 That is really hard right now because new technologies enable 674 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,360 new trends. So like the anime video meme 675 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,280 stuff, that was like somebody figured out how to do it. 676 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,320 It became an instant trend. Everybody was Googling it. 677 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,160 But you know, by that moment we were too late. 678 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,600 So I think that is not possible anymore. 679 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,320 You have to take more bets there. 680 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,800 And then another thing I'm seeing changing in the data 681 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:54,440 landscape is you can now do a quantitative analysis on 682 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,720 qualitative data using AI. So we transcribe all the user 683 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,000 interviews and we look at different teams and it can 684 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:07,120 allow, it allows us to, yeah, really quickly understand better 685 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:09,560 something about a certain problem. 686 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,280 So for example, if we are talking about recording, we used 687 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,480 to be able to look at recording data, just the numbers, but now 688 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,320 we can match that with like, oh, what have users said about this 689 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,680 part of the recording flow in the thousands of user interviews 690 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,320 that we've done? So that's been a huge, huge 691 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,520 improvement for us. I feel like that's gold. 692 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,080 That's something that wouldn't be possible otherwise. 693 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,560 And especially if you have this culture where you build up this 694 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,160 knowledge base of user interviews, you can also think 695 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,640 of, OK, what has already been said, what are the trends across 696 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,520 interviews? Because what's the last 697 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,760 interview is the freshest in my mind. 698 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,520 Like that's the easiest. And then leveraging AI to go 699 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,320 through that catalog. I think that's genius. 700 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,600 Yeah, it's incredibly valuable. Yeah, it's worked really well 701 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,240 for us. And we also record all those 702 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,920 interviews. So then you can make and this, 703 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,320 if you ever want to convince somebody, make a compilation 704 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,040 video of users talking about a problem. 705 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,440 So there was one designer that was really passionate about 706 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,600 redoing our dashboard in the in the product. 707 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,920 And I was a little hesitant. And then he made this video. 708 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,719 Oh, yeah. It's like a compilation video of 709 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,040 all this. You're saying I don't know 710 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,480 where, where, where's the button? 711 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,120 How do I create a project, a conflict? 712 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,840 And I was like, OK, OK, OK, let's, let's get it, let's work 713 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,920 on this. So, so I think that's like, you 714 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,800 know, you use the, the product data, you use the, the 715 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,760 qualitative data with AI and then you turn that into 716 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,800 something that is easy to digest, then you're absolutely 717 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,320 killing it. It's really funny that you've 718 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,760 armed everyone to kind of this use this tool set. 719 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,199 And even when they disagree with you, they can still use it to 720 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,639 persuade whomever. And that in the end is also 721 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:46,080 product, right? Doesn't matter if you're CPO or 722 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:47,239 if you're product manager or whatever. 723 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,560 However, in the end it's about taking people along with you and 724 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,760 kind of rationale and reasoning about what you think is 725 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,960 valuable. If you can't convince otherwise, 726 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,960 then if you can't convince people, then it's not going to 727 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:57,600 fly. Basically. 728 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,320 That's the hard part. That's also part of the job. 729 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,400 Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant by like building a big context 730 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:03,960 window for everybody in the company. 731 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:05,600 And, you know, I'd love to be wrong. 732 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,120 Like, I just want to make sure that we're building the right 733 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,800 thing, so if people can figure out better ideas, then please. 734 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:14,720 Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I love that. 735 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,400 You touched on one thing, which is kind of my last thought. 736 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,400 I think trend based products, because our product features, I 737 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,200 should say, everything that goes viral, there might be a place in 738 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,040 your product. But you already said for this 739 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,600 thing we were too late, right, Which also means there's a start 740 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,480 and an end. Were you there at the start, 741 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,720 then everyone would have been like, OK there and we can do 742 00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:35,880 that there, but there would have also been an end. 743 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,560 So then you build features which kind of have this shelf life 744 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,000 that's new. It's like spoiled milk, 745 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,480 basically. I feel like we haven't seen that 746 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,440 before. And how do you accommodate for 747 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,800 that? Do you jump on when you think 748 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,840 it's valuable, but you don't know what the payoff is going to 749 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,160 be? In any case, it's still speed. 750 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,480 Everything's about speed. Yeah, Yeah, I think, I think 751 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,120 this is very new to product. I think the ephemerality of 752 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:02,240 products has has increased by a very large magnitude because AI 753 00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:05,560 is developing so fast. Now there's ways to predict 754 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,160 trends. One of them is every new model 755 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,120 that comes out enables new use cases. 756 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,840 So if you know what models are going to come out, and if you're 757 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,680 like Veet and you have early access to a lot of those models, 758 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,520 you can kind of brainstorm about, oh, what could we do with 759 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,720 this that we couldn't do before? So that helps you predict those 760 00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:24,600 trends. But yeah, you're right. 761 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,760 I think that not everything that we're building right now is 762 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,200 going to be super relevant 612 months from now. 763 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,200 I think the things that people use ChatGPT for 12 months ago 764 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,640 are not the same things that they're using it for today. 765 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:40,040 And that's okay. But what you need to do then is 766 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:45,160 to build an interface that can allow for, can allow those use 767 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,160 cases to kind of transform. So we have now this thing which 768 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:54,280 we call the AI Playground, where people can use our AI models to 769 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,480 build different things and we can build easily build new use 770 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,320 cases on top of it. We can add new AI things to it. 771 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,520 And in that way we can really quickly jump onto trends, but 772 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,960 also create a common interface to kind of build different types 773 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,120 of videos. And that's been that's been 774 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,200 really successful. And we're thinking a lot now as 775 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,960 product team, how can we build interfaces that are kind of 776 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,040 trend agnostic, but can also adopt to whatever is popping 777 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,160 right now? That's it's really interesting 778 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,280 like for me, anticipating trends is one of the hardest things 779 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,040 right Everyone tries it with like viral videos Hooking into 780 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,760 communities is extremely interesting, like anime. 781 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,920 I'm an anime fan of gapping. I've been watching anime for 782 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,440 like the last 20 years of my life. 783 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,560 I can speak a little bit of Japanese and it's all because of 784 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,120 anime. So when that trend happened, so 785 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,000 happy. Like of course, of course I used 786 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,320 it. Of course I was going to use it 787 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:46,720 in whatever product I would find. 788 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,200 It makes sense to hook into communities, but it's incredibly 789 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,760 hard to anticipate and to figure it out even with kind of early 790 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,120 access. I feel like keeping your options 791 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,560 open and making sure you're fast when it happens I think is the 792 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,240 best thing you can do. Yeah, exactly. 793 00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:04,000 And and we, you know at we, we should never underestimate our 794 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,440 distribution. Like we have 10s of millions of 795 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:07,880 people coming to the site every month. 796 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,760 So if we jump on a trend fast enough, they'll probably see it 797 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,080 here 1st and not somewhere else. So even if we're not the first, 798 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,080 we might be the first time people people hear about this. 799 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,800 This is something I also learned when we were doing subtitles. 800 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,360 So we do these automated subtitles, which are very 801 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,040 popular. I thought that thing was kind of 802 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,680 over a couple years ago, but still to this day I, I speak to 803 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,320 customers that are saying you can do AI generated subtitles. 804 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,520 It's mind blowing. And I'm like, oh wow, we've had 805 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,960 this for six years. Like what's going on? 806 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,760 I mean, you are on top of the game, right? 807 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,400 And you're an expert in your field. 808 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,320 You look at what the competition does, so then you're probably 809 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,160 miles ahead of the average user who sees something, probably 810 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,720 gets into video and content creation, and it's like, OK, 811 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,560 what is out there? What can I do and just get stuff 812 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,200 done and whatever you can have to get get make that better. 813 00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:59,680 It's going to blow their mind probably. 814 00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,160 I was definitely like that. Like I I used the tool and then 815 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,160 I knew there would be at some point auto transcription. 816 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,480 I would use others tools that their sole purpose was to do 817 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,120 auto transcription and then I would use it begrudgingly be 818 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,320 like, if these tools have that, you're out of business. 819 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,160 Basically, I'm just reducing this temporarily and exactly 820 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,240 when it hits, I'm all in. Basically I want to use one tool 821 00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:21,880 and that's it. I want to have one platform and 822 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,320 I want to get really good at that platform. 823 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,360 And ideally I want it to be free, but I understand I also 824 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,040 have to pay if I want to have good stuff. 825 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,040 So that's me as an as an editor basically. 826 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,840 You're very much like many of the other editors. 827 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,440 People want all in one solutions. 828 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,960 They don't love paying for it, but if we make a good enough, 829 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,560 they're willing to compare some change. 830 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:40,520 That's it. Yeah. 831 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,160 Man, I've really loved this conversation, I must say. 832 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,840 Fascinating what you've achieved and also how you're thinking 833 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,560 about AI from a product sense. Are we thinking about AI from a 834 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,600 productivity sense in your organization, but also your 835 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,080 advice for other organizations in this conversation? 836 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,880 Is there anything missing that you would still like to share 837 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,240 before we round off? No, I think, I think this is 838 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:04,840 this is really fun. Yeah, thanks. 839 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,680 Thanks for for having me. And I I think maybe the one 840 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,640 thing I would say is try out our platform and and have a play 841 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,240 with it. And I'm very curious to to hear 842 00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:16,960 what people people do with it. Awesome thank you so much for 843 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,480 listening. Check out Sam. 844 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,640 All the socials will be in the description below. 845 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,200 If you want to support the show, leave a like that's the only 846 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,040 thing you have to do. It's free, you don't have to pay 847 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,160 for it, especially on any of the platforms. 848 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:29,920 Apple podcast, Spotify or YouTube. 849 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,160 If you're your fan, do all three and otherwise we'll see you on 850 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:33,720 the next one.