Hi, everyone. My name is Patrick akhil.
How do you speak in public and do it?
Well, that's what we cover in today's episode and joining me
is sub eshu. Sengupta is the founder of
method in my madness where they also have a podcast talks a lot
about business transformation, change in Innovation.
And besides that, he does a lot with public speaking stands on
stage almost every week and is really good at it.
I'll put all his socials in the description below.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode.
I was wondering since you do a lot with public speaking, like
what was your first experience with public speaking?
Why'd you get into it in the first place?
Whoo II. Don't know if debate competition
also qualifies as a public speaking.
I think so. So I wasn't 10 years old.
Yeah, 10 years old. So, you know, here's the thing.
I was a very skinny small guy, I was very shy, I didn't have a
lot of friends growing up. Okay, I was I was I was not An
introvert, but I was just a bit reserved.
I'm, if I find my kind of people, I'm an extrovert.
If I don't like completely, you know, I'm very guarded.
I don't speak. So, that was my childhood till
has pretty much 18. Yeah.
So a lot of people from my childhood look at me on social
media today that I'm speaking and this, and then they like,
wow, how did you transform? How did you become this?
But I was always this outgoing person, it's just I need to Feel
that connect, you know, the right environment and of course
as a child you're self-conscious, you don't want
to stand out. Yeah something that We crave to
do as an adult. We don't want to do that as a
kid. I was always loved speaking at
home and I was very argumentative, very to the
point. I was and growing up in a
culture like indeed was never appreciated to haul back to
parents and to family members with logic.
And when people cannot got you with logic, they bring the age
but we are older than you. That really works because I'm
your parent. Yes, exactly.
Exactly. Because I'm your parent.
So my brother actually, my elder brother channelized, this inner
Rebel in me and cajoled me to go for a debate competition in
good. In school.
I still remember. The topic was is television Vice
or a television is a good thing or bad thing.
Now, this is 1995 where a television was already The Talk
of the Town. We didn't have Netflix or
Whatsapp Or Instagram. So we were already discussing.
How much screen time we spend on TV?
Yeah. And I remember saying that
television is a good thing just like anything.
It has a vice and virtue vices and virtues.
It's how you choose it it was it was very nerve-racking because
first of all I think my teachers and my classmates were shocked
that I volunteered. It was not willful.
I was cajoled and blackmailed by my brother.
The wrote a speech for me who really pushed me to go and, and,
and, you know, do it in front of the class which was very, very
uncomfortable for me. Yeah.
I was really, really extremely nervous when I did it, but I I
also remember the feeling I didn't win but I do remember
that feeling when I went past the first two lines, I went
completely off script. Yeah, I forgot most of the
things but I kept talking, I kept making points and I was
like, okay, I'm making Um, I can speak.
Yeah, I never did it again. I like hearing their
presentation, but I remember like when I was eight Seventeen
eighteen, the high school, our teacher sometimes gave us this
impromptu topics to talk about and it was like a class of 80
people, they were not listening, you know, you're in the rebuilt
and teens, you don't want to listen to the teacher and you
like this disrupting the class and I went and I spoke I spoke
about Indian snack. And you have to make metaphor up
with these things. Okay.
And I spoke about how all the spices come together to make
this beautiful. And if one of the ingredient is
missing, how the food is so lackluster.
And and we all need to stay together just like this to make,
you know, bring our energies being our skills and make our
class a success. Yeah, as I started speaking, I
saw a pin drop silence. Okay, I saw the crowd was
listening. Those 80 unruly kids, who
otherwise would normally bully me.
Me, or make fun of me. And now, listening to me, are
giving me full attention and when I was finished, they
applauded for me, and then a cool, dude goes after me to
speak. And they, he does not have the
command over the crowd. He, they just they're listening
to him. They're just follow up on you.
Exactly. Yeah, but for me, it was like, I
felt, like, words were my weapons, you know, as a very
like I said, I was very conscious of how I look is very
skinny, very shy. Yeah.
Didn't have I was very average and studies, I had nothing going
right for me, except words was what my weapons?
And, yeah, that's how I developed it.
Of course, I didn't at that age, I didn't have the maturity to
understand that, but I kept, nurturing it in college doing
presentations. Going for more debates.
And yeah, and they never stop talking.
I'm still talking, I think I've answered the question already,
but I'm still talking. This is what happens when you do
public speaking. No worries.
Not at all. I was wondering why your brother
like when you were that young why was it so important for him
for you to do that? Did you ever have that
conversation with her? You know my my brother has been
really the driving force, a big force in my life to who has
noticed qualities in me that I did not know that existed.
Yeah, and as pushed me to do things and I, you know, being
sibling, but I think we both have similar interest.
I think he's also very good in debates and presentations and I
think part of him, he lived that, you know, that energy.
And that what you call that motivation?
The for him through me like he want.
I was living his passion for public speaking.
Yeah, true. He was leaving that his passion
for public speaking. Through me, I am in a way, but I
also, I think, you know, we've both had similar childhood,
we've also seen similar rulings similar situations so he's a bit
older than me. So he also realized that
probably what I need those words as weapons to protect me.
Yeah I like that a lot. I mean I'm the I'm the oldest of
four. Yeah, like my second, my oldest
little brother, he's seven years younger than me.
Yeah no sister she's 10 years younger than me and the youngest
brother 16 years younger than. Wow.
So there's quite the age difference.
My brother's Danny is older than me seniors so you got that one.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Because always what I found like
with the brother, that's seven years younger than me.
I grew up with him the most right.
I'm now out of my parents place, my youngest brother is now he's
coming up, he's going to be 12 soon like there's a big age
difference there. So with the oldest little
brother man, I really have trouble saying that in any case
with The first one I tried to give all my knowledge to him, my
all my learnings, all my mistakes and all my learnings I
would try and be like, okay, these are the things.
And this is my advice and blah blah blah because I thought that
would really help it. And yeah that also backfires
because I don't trust me. I mean if you if you speak to my
brother he would say I'd listen to probably 5% or less than
that. What he tells me?
Yeah, it mistakes and learning from mistakes is really a I
think learning from your own mistakes is the best way of
learning. Any.
Yeah, so you if you want someone not to make mistakes and already
give a template this is right? This is wrong.
Yeah, it probably doesn't work. People need we all need to make
our own mistakes to learn. Yeah, I agree with that.
Now then I was like, listen these mistakes, no, no, no.
You don't have to maybe only to make the same mistakes because
being like, if you don't make mistakes at a young age, you
will probably make them at older Ages which is has a bigger
price. So it's a good to make mistakes
mistakes out. Learning points.
I think we, I agree. She's back then.
I didn't. I didn't agree.
Yeah, I like that nowadays as adults.
Like, it's okay. And it's accepted that people
make mistakes, right? Yeah.
And you don't really, how do you say that you don't punish them
for mistakes as it gets? Sometimes you get punished for
mistakes. Yeah, you should do that.
Yeah. And that probably you take that
with you as an adult, absolutely.
And, and the world that I grew up in is the 90s, you know,
scarcity was really a thing off. Opportunities jobs were not easy
then you know, I remember speaking to my peers.
Now, when I speak to them at even at the age of 1415, they
were concerned where they will work.
What is going to be their career?
How are they going to make both ends meet in a few years?
I was really not worried. I had my own you know, I was the
male version of Alice in Wonderland.
I had my own Wonderland where I could Escape.
I had my own nanny, I would go there.
Be happy, draw and everything, of course, the world around me
changed, As I Grew Older. But that that, real, that
mentality of really hard work. We need to really put
everything, you know, was there and, and yeah, it's a, it's a
very hard one to compete with, you know?
So, yeah, that's that's the 90s. Yeah, like that.
There's always different kind of nature versus nurture things.
I still think a lot, Has to do with upbringing.
Yeah, but a lot you also still have in you write your brother.
Might have pushed you to do something, but you already had
it in you. Although, as you wouldn't have
been, yeah, I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure because there's many
other things he pushed me fucking didn't work out.
So that's definitely a thing. And also, I think what you said
about a bringing we mentioned our friend, Alex, you know, we
our common connection I remember, talking to him a few
weeks back at a big Speaking assignment I was going for a big
workshop for a whole day and I was very nervous that I'm going
to mess it up. I mean, even though I'm
confident in the work I did, I have already known those
stakeholders but still it's a big one and I was really nervous
and I remember calling Alex and telling him, I think I'm going
to completely mess it up. Yeah.
What do you think? And he said like, okay, What
story do you tell yourself you mess it up?
Like that. I'm not good enough.
I'm missing up every opportunity and everything and he's like, is
this how you got treated? When you were kid?
I'm like, yeah. Every time I saw an opportunity
go past me where I didn't get an admission to a school, or I
didn't get the grades that I would deserve, or my teachers
expected more from me. This is how I was getting
treated that. I'm not good enough.
I'm messing up opportunities, I'm not putting enough effort,
I've only seen anger frustrations grief.
Yeah. And his question was, did you
like it? No.
I hated it. Mmm.
So this counter question was then don't treat yourself now
how you didn't want to be treated as a kid?
Yeah. And that was such a moment of
epiphany for me that like gee I've been treating myself
exactly how I didn't want to be treated.
Yeah so that is so Alex also that is so Alex.
Yeah he's really amazing. Exactly.
That's really funny because I don't know if it was during the
episode but he mentioned a few things I was like yeah that
happened in my childhood and now I see that That I'm doing that
to myself now. Yeah, basically.
Yeah, Alex has this magic power to to to to take you back to
your childhood. Yeah.
And and and show you the mirror. How is it was still that the
child? And you have, you've grown in
experience in your life and everything but you still
functioning like that. I was insecure child and that's
confronting, but also comforting because now you know what not to
do. Exactly, you're aware.
Yeah, that's the That's the powerful things thinking exactly
the same metaphor. He puts a mirror in front of
you. Yeah.
And shows you the real, you met you met Alex through
Toastmasters right there. Was that old Master is here, I
guess in the Netherlands and Amsterdam.
Actually, and did you join Toastmasters before already, or
was this coniferous danger? So I joined Toastmasters in 2010
when I moved to the Netherlands. Yeah, that was my first year,
the first in the Netherlands is never easy.
You know, this country, the Autumn the weather is fantastic,
the food is lovely. People are warm.
Yeah, I'm being sarcastic. No I was like yeah but like I
remember like october-november the Autumn really hits.
You hard food and and I just missed warmth.
I missed the sun and it was really really frustrating time
for me. Also my brother was in the is in
the Netherlands. You told me you do you love
talking? Why don't you there's this group
of people that need to talk? Toastmasters, why don't you go
and you know, meet them and join and very reluctantly December
2010. I went there and I was very shy
to like, oh my God, these are outstanding speakers.
What am I going to do in front of them and they gave me a, you
know, the table topic that's like impromptu speaking.
Still remember the topic they gave me.
When was the last time you did something for the first time?
And I said, speaking in front of a hundred and I don't Route.
I don't I've never done that before.
And yeah, they even gave me a prize for best, the impromptu
speaker that evening. Well, and then I never left.
Yeah, this is 12, 13 years later, I'm still a member and,
and also co-founded a club in Amsterdam.
And and yeah, that's where I met a lot of amazing people
including Alex. It's a great place to learn
public speaking, groom in public speaking and also a lot of
leadership qualities. I have learned there because you
There's a clip board that runs the club you have you you get
mentored. You also Mentor people.
So it is really safe space to try something new.
Yeah, and I always tell this to people whenever they want to do
something new in that safe, space is like doing something
new. In Toastmasters is like painting
a canvas, if it's bad, you can throw it away.
But if it's good, you can use the same skills to paint your
wall. I like that.
Let's beautiful Toastmasters. Like I've heard it before.
Yeah. I had a guest on.
It was one actually colleague of mine on the manual pad off on.
Yeah, I know him. You know, I'm of course those
Masters. Yes.
Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.
He's an awesome guy and I was obvious, he really pitched
Toastmasters to me and I think about I was like he's really
awesome. Yeah.
It sounds like a really good deal but I always end this is
probably like a personal problem.
I have trouble starting sometimes right because I think
about get a Time investment. Like I take the responsibility
seriously so I would go. Okay, I'll drag you next time.
Gonna be hard for me to say no. But in any case, like how
gradually did you start? Where you all in from the Star
know? I wasn't.
I mean like so I think a Toastmaster joining goes
through, you know, that like first.
It's amazing. Then you lose interest.
Then you get interest, it goes through ups and downs.
But the thing that really hooked me to Toastmasters were the
competitions, okay? We had twice a year competition
in various categories, humorous speech, impromptu speaking
evaluation which is about Uranus Speech and giving feedback,
within five minutes, what can be done better, what can be done
and international speech, which goes up to World Championship.
So if you have a speech, you can become a world champion of
public speaking. Yeah, which is really about, is
really cool. Yeah, haven't done that yet.
Still on my bucket list, but I have gone as far as winning two
times, the European level competition, which is the
district in the speech, evaluation competitions, and in
and second, and third prize in humorous.
An international speech. Just some work to do there still
awesome though. Yeah, but the first time you're
in a, such a big stage. I mean I remember it was Leon.
I was competing. I was representing that magnet.
The division was the Netherlands.
Yeah. And there were several other
European countries competing there and I was the new kid on
the Block 2014, okay, it's electrifying to be in front of
450 people and it was humorous speech.
So I was making jokes and they were laughing.
I was getting Applause routing. Ting.
Aye. It was surreal moment.
Yeah. And and for me that really got
me hooked because I saw not the award actually, it's more the
appreciation and also the journey I had from a club level
to that level because you there are like at least three levels
that you have to win before you go to that European
district-level yeah it's you learn so much and you meet so
many people you know you ask people for feedback as them to
review your speech. You learn so much.
Nuances details of how you're using your stage, how you're
moving, how your body language is looking how the punch punch
line is going on, not working so many details at the same time.
Sometimes even only 10 or 5 percent as useful rest is just
someone's opinion is everything is opinion, you know.
Yeah so you have to choose what you want to keep what you don't
want to keep. And that learning was so rich
that I felt like want to do this again.
And again that's really cool. I have lost a way.
R times than have one. Yeah, way more times.
That's one few times. Like, I've competed, it's
vulnerable thing to really put myself out there every year
lose, sometimes win. But like I said, I think the
biggest takeaway is what the things you learn in that
preparation phase, it's amazing. Yeah, the journey itself for
sure, for sure. So cool.
That that gives you confidence to even speak outside that
bubble, you know, like when I'm now, I mean Since when I started
speaking professionally to go outside that bubble to complete
new group and give a talk that confidence came from yeah, those
Masters for sure. Yeah, I can imagine did you cuz
standing on stage and doing something over and over and over
again? Like the only thing I can equate
it to as probably because I listen to a lot of audiobooks is
more, so like the comedic scene where people as a comedian, you
go on stage, people, even record themselves and listen, move
jokes around rephrase it slightly differently or look at.
Our posture and their punchlines, and something like
that. Is it comparable to that?
Yes, of course there is, there is little bit of that imitation,
sometimes you specially for prep prepared speeches.
Yeah. But the thing is like, if it's a
very well renowned speaker, you know, then everybody can really
associate that. You're trying to immediate
someone that doesn't really go that.
Well yeah, so the more authentic, you are the better it
is. And I think one of the things I
personally like in HSN. I've seen these speeches that
win are so well-prepared that they look.
It's been spoken of the cuff. Okay, it looks like the speaker
just thought of it. It's coming from the heart.
It has no stuttering. No stumbling.
No hesitation. Yeah, but it's not.
Doesn't look too staged. The moment.
Something looks staged. It doesn't touch.
Your heart. Does translate know.
So, I think I always say, that's the next level.
It's like the Xiao Ling 36 chambers of Shaolin.
It's like that. It's like the 36th step where
you prepare so much that it you look unprepared.
Looks you're speaking for off the cuff.
It does not look staged. It doesn't look fake.
It doesn't look too. You know, rehearsed.
I can imagine. Do you look at your own like,
recordings or speeches in that way?
And like analyze? I honestly hate when I look my
own videos, I'm like, oh my God, I'm so awful.
I am. I am that?
Where a lot of the learnings are?
Yeah, for sure, for sure. But I think it did only Capper
to watch Own speed. Is you exactly know?
What was in your brain when you were doing that, okay?
You know, like you know exactly what you were feeling.
You know, exactly what and sometimes things are things that
happen are are not things that are in your head are not
relevant to the speech. Yeah.
So then you should I say this, I'll say this, but if it's so
last year, I gave a tedx talk in the few University.
I'm very happy with it went. Well, it got nice reviews, nice
feedback. It was about organizational
change and transformation. Now, I was the second speaker
after the break, there was a break.
I got already mic'd up, so I'm now in my I'm getting into the
momentum that I'm going to speak right after the first like the
speaker, after the break. Yeah, I'm all mic'd up and
everything. So I'm very conscious not to
drop water but of course you want to use the restroom, drink
some water. And then as I'm washing my
hands, you know, I'm completely I'm zoned out the You know, you
knew open the tab too hard, the water just splashes read a cue.
And it's just splashed all over my pants.
And and my first reaction is was a very light cream colored
pants. So it's a very busy of a
watermark. It's a very, very, very more
visible. Yeah.
It's I'm like, why didn't I remember to wear a dark bed?
Did they like, what the hell is wrong with me?
And I'm and then I went to I'm on the first row.
Yeah. And I'm really have a paper in
my hand and I'm really trying to dry up my hand.
So I when I'm on stage and this is going to be on YouTube, I'm
not embarrassed by. What's up there?
You know, and I kind of them to stop because I need to dry up
and I have no other way, you know, it's too embarrassing and
it luckily these cotton pads, they get wet fast but they get
also dry really fast. It.
It I saw Oh, the video. It's all good.
But even when I watch that video, that's the first and
perhaps the only thought in my head that I shouldn't have, I
should remember how to open with these are so small details of
things you should do, before going on stage that you only
learn by making these mistakes the next time you know should
not open the tap to like these things happen also at work but
nobody pays attention, Okay? Yeah.
Whatever you know. But when you're going to be a
recorded its kind of feels like a little big I can imagine.
June, was that kind of on your mind as well when you're on
stage. Like did it affect your
performance you think? No, no, no first.
First know when I went on stage it was all good.
That's good. All good.
There are certain factors that you can't control so this was
one of them. The other thing that was there
was the person before me had a very inspiring talk and but it
was about war. He was coming from a war-torn
country and he was talking about how the people were suffering
and how what painted the pain that the locals were going
through. Yeah.
Now that's a very heavy topic to go after because that's a that's
a, that's a serious topic. That's very moving.
You can see that really touches the group.
Some people have tears in their eyes considering the current
situation. A lot of people also resonate
with these things. Yeah.
And then I'm going to go and start with some jokes because
that's the first thing I do humor at the start and then I'm
I was more concerned. And about that that I should not
come across insensitive. Yeah.
Make light of it. Yeah that you know that and
because it is stuff. It is.
It is the job of the master of ceremony to change the mood.
Yeah. But you cannot count on someone
to really do that. Well but imagine somebody has a
really personal story about something like this which is
heavy and that's really sad and that's very thought-provoking
and then you come up with something very silly to get get
the audience reaction. You We'll come across extremely
insensitive. Somebody who doesn't, you know
read the room. It's so it's very important work
for me was to read the room at the same time.
Keep in mind the YouTube audience that's going to watch
it. So yeah it's a yeah that's hard
to balance it's very hard to be. Can imagine like I did a want to
do more with public speaking. Yeah I haven't I haven't taken
you with me to those Masonic. I'll try it.
July, what? I promise you when this episode
is already been there, we'll see.
But late last year, like my company does a textile
conference its internal. So we still have a few hundred
people but it's internal ex-colleagues, you know?
And also look at this is small. Stepping stone for me to kind of
dab into and try it out. See if I like it in the first
place and there's a talk it was five minutes.
Like it's nothing thinking back about it now.
And I was like, okay, like I know I'm gonna get nervous but I
also know I want to do that. So I prepared myself in a way
that I was going to go first because you could say, okay,
when do you want to go? So I can Solutely first, because
I have done it, I'm done. All right, so I'm there and I'm
like, okay, I'm going to be the first one there.
We're gonna do this, and it's going to be fine.
Like I had a serious topic, I prepared, but I didn't prepare
too much like I feel like, that's my my groove.
Yeah. And then I was ready for it and
they bring on this professional person.
I don't even know what their title was, but it wasn't from
our company. It was to warm up the crowd and
they did a whole 20 minute session in the completely
crushed, everyone's laughing. I was like, oh my God, the whole
time 20 minutes up, like I have to go after this day.
Because he was so good that I felt like I put myself down
because of that and I also was like man these people just left
their ass off. They're not gonna laugh about
any of my jokes now anymore like it was pretty pretty Dreadful.
Yeah. II think this is a very common
thing that happens I think one of the things I love doing is
being a master of ceremony. I love doing that role because
you really can control and even manipulate the room, what is
what is that wrong? So you are the one in
responsible for it. Reducing the speakers and and
you and I think the person who is doing that has the ultimate
responsibility to set the tone. Yeah, so this person should know
what the topic is get. A little bit of idea what you're
going to talk about and warm the crowd in a way that they are
ready for something like this because it is as quite a switch
from. If it's a you're laughing aloud
to suddenly something very serious.
Yeah, this this heavy, The time you get the room five minutes is
over. Yeah, so you I think it's really
the responsibility of the master of ceremony to bridge that Gap.
Yeah. And and and yeah and and her
move the room in a way that is easier for the next speaker.
Who's going to come interesting? I never saw that roll like that,
but that is the responsibility that makes a lot of sense.
It's a huge. I mean, any, any program
conference call? Doris where the master of
ceremony is inexperienced, you will see it in the energy of the
group, you will see how it's people are tired or there is the
this this could, there's a disconnect, some speakers are
doing well. Some aren't some people are
leaving. It's really the job of the
ceremony Master to make sure that every Speaker gets the
right equal opportunity. Yeah.
And and also the responsibility to bring the audience back from
the last speaker. To this current stage and pass
it on to the next speaker. That's really cool.
I've done, I've done that on a conference and I feel like the
variation of, like, serious topic versus funny versus
something that's like really deep.
I think it's not there as much. Like there's not as big of a
contrast, so I just winged it like a like here.
I'm on myself. Also on stage.
If something funny happens, I try to make a joke and then
introduce someone new by, I really like that.
Responsibility of tying the whole thing together, giving
everyone an equal opportunity along the way.
Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah I think I think you were to
energy. I think you you feel the room
II? You have a good try
understanding? Of what the crowd is feeling?
The time of the day like after lunch or morning and and that's
that those sensitivity a very important to, you know, play
with the room. You can only like this a you can
only break the law when you know the law.
So you can only play with the room when you know the room.
I like that a lot. Let's that's awesome.
But you went from The only thing I'm wondering is okay, what,
what, distinguishes someone that is good on stage versus someone
that's just on stage? Like what makes someone real
good? I don't even for you personally.
When did you get real good at this?
You know, that's the funny thing.
I don't know if you actually did see any speeches from of mine,
too. I don't consider myself good.
Okay, I think I'm somebody, I really, I consider myself
somebody who's learning every day, okay, because it's public.
Speaking for me is like, diving, you know, you you're never
learn. You're never done learning new
things. You never done seeing something
new, you're never done, exploring a new depth because
it's unlimited. Yeah.
And the moment, the day you stop doing that, you're going to, you
know, become a one-trick pony. Yeah.
And that's that's really I think the worst thing that can happen
to a speak or a creative person because if you And try new
things. If you don't try new Styles then
you're like you plant doing. Yeah.
But I agree with that but there must have been something that
you changed because you do reflect on yes and of what
you're sure. I think I'm trying to think, I
think one of the personal big milestone was to tackle my
Restless energy. I'm a very restless person and
and also I think I do get ideas, a lot of ideas so Us with ideas.
Make it deadly combination. Because I'm always trying to
like stuff as much as possible in a Content like, okay.
You know, and I always thought like why are people not
accepting it but that's because you give it too much.
You have overwhelm people with too many things, you know make
it scarce I think to calm myself down and and trust that less is
more was really a big step. I'm still luck getting better at
it. I'm not there yet.
Yeah, I still whenever I have to prepare a talk and stuff I'm
like I don't have enough content but it's really about trusting
that less is more and things will flow.
That's I think the biggest moment.
Yeah and I think also when I started Co helping people a
coaching or giving mentoring to other speakers, you also see
things they can do better as a molarities also.
And and now that you say, aye II.
It's a probably a big, a little philosophical answer, but I have
a definition of success. Okay, I believe it is the
ability to give away everything that you have from a good idea
or money, or everything that you have to a person because you
have the belief that you can re-establish.
It all over again that state of mind is success or, you know,
you've reached somewhere. If you ask me, I think More than
Applause more than any awards when I felt confident that I'm
good at public speaking is when I have actually helped and quote
somebody and in that process I got a great line.
Oh you should try this line. Oh try this way style.
If an idea has come to me, I have never held back sharing it
thinking that no, no, let me keep it for myself.
Oh my God, this is such a gem. I should not give it away.
I have actually given it away and and and when I I have done
that. I actually felt like when I've
seen them do that on stage and being successful that loud
worked and people like, oh, that line that you gave me was so
perfect, that worked. I felt like I grown as a speaker
to be able to be confident enough to give away these, you
know, the best gems because I know I can recreate it all over
again. Yeah, that's beautiful.
Yeah, I think that's that's the mindset.
You should have rights, especially if you're in a
teaching role. Yeah, there's enough for
everyone to go around absolutely.
And if you Shake this Gemma you can do another one as well.
Absolutely I think I think yeah what not that you asked me.
I'm curious. What what would you want to see
in a speaker to consider them a good speaker for me?
I am going to draw a lot of similarities to the podcast
because the reason I got better at this, I feel like is because
I started editing my own episodes.
I would read listen to myself and be like, okay, I don't like
what I'm saying. This as a response.
I didn't pay attention. I didn't actually really Listen.
Yeah that person said I was tired and like my body language
like a lot of criticisms then came to light and I tried to be
good at storytelling. I try to start with a certain
Story Circle back to it at the end, be concrete know where I'm
going, but still take the audience with me.
I feel like if I see someone on stage that can do that, start
with a story go deep take people with them.
Yeah. The eloquent in the things,
they're saying exactly. As you say probably prepare a
lot but you don't act like you've prepared a lot.
Yeah, yeah. Naturally flow?
Yeah, I think that's what I'm looking for, in a, a speaker as
well. So prepared, but not staged.
Yeah. So I feel like and I try and I
wouldn't say emulate, I feel like that's my preferred style
in a way but sometimes I feel like I'm not prepared enough
like when I did those five minutes when I came off.
I compare myself to every person there, every single person.
Yeah. And when I thought their content
was better than mine or their story had a better sequence than
mine, I would think. Okay, that's what I can improve.
So then, Afterwards during recess people would say, like, I
loved so, and so what you said and what we're glad they would
point out specific things and I would be with those criticisms
in mind. I would like, yeah.
But the content wasn't that great.
Like next time, I'll fix the content and I'll make it more
sharp more, whatever the hell I had in my mind, that was a hard
hard part. Looking back.
Someone actually told me it's in, everyone's saying, good
things. Why are you doing this to
yourself? But I know exactly that feeling
because its first of all, whenever Done with the speech
and people come and give compliments.
And I hope I don't sound cocky, but I do get compliments.
Every now and then. First of all, I'm very tired.
Yeah, you know, because it takes a lot of out of you to even a
five minute speech. By the way, I think it's tougher
than half an hour talk because in half an hour talking of the
room to be to starter to say a thing, twice, or even best place
to be over to, to come back. And in the end people remember,
four five things, you know, so you can plant those gems.
Where, you know. Yeah, but a five minutes talk
has to be compact, has to be concise has to really have
everything ticked and you have almost no room to you know, fail
you know and the shorter The Talk, The more challenging it
is. Yeah, I feel but still, it's
very tiring experience when you're tired and people come and
give you these really great word.
They were great and I want to run away.
I'm personally want to run away but I did just don't have brain
space to take anything. I would really prefer somebody
writing an email that happens as well.
Yeah that email I read that remit email is I really cherish
it but in that moment I'm not I'm not I I tell people it's
like when oil is really hot, you don't throw some you know
vegetables in. It'll just burn it or throw it
back. Yeah you need to.
And right now I'm that hot oil. I'm not in the capacity to
taking any feedback positive - none.
Yeah just say you were good. We'll get Get back to you,
that's enough interesting. Like I don't know if I do
recognize that I was drained and I actually I set myself apart.
I went and sat in a corner by myself and I was like, I just
need a moment. I pretended to be on my phone
actually. Just looked at the screen, like,
I need a moment, I need to be by myself, right?
I know because I was drained that feeling I have once taken a
fire exit to the ninth floor of a horror show.
Tell. Because everyone, I mean, I was
getting really nice boys. I mean I want those nice words.
By the way, please don't stop saying those nice words because
that's lovely, but I just didn't have energy.
I just like, pretended to go to the toilet to the fire exit to
go to my room and I was like, like there, I was very happy.
Adrenaline was really high. But, you know, this is also a
prep. This is also a performance, you
know, you're doing an inverter so much people.
Yeah. So you need a, what you call
that like a moment with yourself from from being on stage to
being in from, in in in in I love the crowd takes a recharge.
Yeah, I some people do it. Some people really do it.
I struggle with it are similar II need at least 10 minutes of
me time. Yeah, yes.
Let me before I can, you know, I need to recharge my battery.
I need to, you know, pacify the inner introvert, me and then
give the extrovert meet the chance to correct?
Yes. Exactly.
I really feel the same in that way, but I like, I like the
question. You posed that, what do you look
for when someone is on stage? Like, what do you think?
It's a real good speaker. There's public speaking
presentation, maybe even in a more office setting or just
standing on stage. What do you look for?
You know, it's like you can look at the details, you know.
So last month I was at a conference of Toastmasters and
one of my friend was the, the keynote, he spoke.
He has been to the world championship.
He came second and he spoke about.
Don't look at the notes. Look at the music.
You need the notes to create a perfect music, but you don't
need to. I mean if you focus too much on
the notes, you'll forget to make the big impact.
Yeah. And those are the words of other
tell. He was the keynote.
Speaker, is fantastic speaker. One of the best I have seen and
I really great mentor figure to me.
And I really think that's powerful, like, it's not always
about the details about the body language, about the voice and
everything. It's really about the overall
feeling people get out of your So many times I've seen that
work. When leaders are giving town
hall or giving presentations and stuff they are focused on the
slides or how those slides are designed or how quickly they
want to be done and move on what they don't emphasize is the
feeling that they are giving to the group, are they giving a
feeling of positivity? Are they giving a feeling of
sense of urgency? Are they giving a feeling of,
you know, camaraderie. They don't have no idea the
feeling that that they should give and then they are giving
because in the end and we all take home a feeling like either,
it is like you feel disconnect, or you feel really charged up or
you feel super motivated. Yeah.
One way or the other, we any any event that we have in our life
we take home at least one feeling so might as well be more
conscious about what we want to give through a speech.
I there was when I was getting to get learning public speaking
and getting at it. I would look at details body
language, how they're standing. They have hands in the pocket or
how they are moving on stage, how the using the clicker, how
the opening and closing are. But the thing that I really look
for now, especially during covid x, i, I saw the need for this
feeling, it's that how conscious and how deliberate are you with
the with the impression and the feeling you want to give to the
group of people? Yeah.
Because, you know, it, the classic is the during the
lockdown. Somebody says, you know, in a
very, we're not in monogamous sorry, we're not in a sorry, not
monogamous, sorry in a very moment.
Why is that in my mind, never mind in a very monotonous and a
very, you know, impersonal way that, you know, we will we are
here for you. We are one big family, the
feeling you get is and we got was like, yeah, you're just
doing it to take a box, you don't really care about us, you
just, you know, you don't really care.
An end, the same text with so little more care could have had
triggered magic. We could have created really
good impact in the team. So I think that's definitely
what I look for these days that how conscious and deliberate is
the speaker with the feeling they want to give to the group.
Yeah. But that is, as very abstract,
isn't it? Like, how do you give off a
feeling? I think I can do it but I have
no clue how I do it. Well, it really Depends on the
context of course. But it's not that hard.
It is sometimes. Just choice of words, it is
choice of ejectives. It's a choice of stories that
you use. I mean, are you just presenting
a like a data or just giving bullet points?
Or are you giving a personal story?
I still remember in my first job in India, we had a bit of a
reorganization was really early in my career like first three
months and our one of the department head.
Once was giving a town hall and he said, this is the, this is
what it means. This this is, this is the impact
that can happen data. And then he tells about, like,
listen, I have been when I started off, I got fired from
two jobs, but I felt really bad, but sometimes I look back.
That was the best thing that happened to me.
Yeah. Because sometimes it's not about
falling, it's about standing up. So if you feel yourself falling,
take a moment but stand up, you know, I mean I'm paraphrasing
now. It was long.
Long back 2007? Yeah.
But knowing, oh my God, he even the boss has gone through this
and and not just he gave it as a fact, but he also described want
into more into the feelings. How he felt when he was 23 out
of job, fresh out of University, his peers were working.
He didn't have job, he felt uncomfortable socializing
because everybody was employed, he wasn't how he was going
through that depression. And then, you know, he decided
to bounce back how hard it was. But in the end, he was happy
because Job. He would have been only two
steps up, but now he found something that really is
passionate about that. That I think that vulnerable
Story made us feel like you're not the only one who's going
through this, you know. Yeah.
So it's also the personal touch that you bring to the story and
that's more than facts and figures.
You know, the emotions making people or allowing people to
relate, rather right by making yourself kind of it.
It's sometimes, it's sometimes it just choice of words.
It's also, you know, like I mean one of the things we really take
it for granted that if you are in a leadership position, you
must know everything. Yeah.
But the truth is leaders are more nervous with public
speaking than a junior analyst, or somebody or Junior
consultant. Because for them, anything they
do is great, your new kid in the block, you're doing something
new, you will get applauded. Yeah.
However, if you're a leader and you do, It, and you don't do it.
Well, then you will be criticized.
So they are much more nervous to do to it right than someone, you
know, they're putting the reputation out there now, so
many times and I worked with people in leadership position,
they are much more nervous, much more reluctant to try something
new much more reluctant to make a personal, you know, reference
because they don't want to be too vulnerable.
And and and yeah they just so that they're way more nervous.
Yeah. So sometimes what you see as
reluctance and and and and an air of indifference is nothing
but nervous reaction but in my butt which comes across like you
don't care about us but it's just they're nervous.
Do you also look at like if it's your own leader or like a
leadership group when they're not as great in public speaking,
like when they're great at public speaking?
I really enjoy. And I'm happy that they're kind
of the leadership team or part of the, but when they're not as
great in public speaking, I do feel it, reflects something on
them now. I don't know what that is, but I
do feel different. I'm not so sure for sure.
I mean, II agree with that. I mean, and I, this is probably
a very unpopular opinion, but I really believe it's not that
scary public speaking. It's actually a wonderful skill
to have. It is a, it is a low-hanging
fruit. Trust me.
I'm trying to learn driving, it's way harder.
Yeah, I know. Yeah, exactly.
It's way harder than public speaking.
So I tried rowing. It's way harder than popular.
Oh, Owens do. But come on.
Well wasn't for me. So I can tell you.
It just needs practice and I think it's really about trying
every every opportunity possible.
Yeah. Trying every day or not every
days, probably extreme. But every week or so.
Getting up on stage, taking up every moment to wherever you can
speak to take it, they can help even conversations with
colleagues. Make it a speech, you know,
instead of just being few words and I think it's not just for
public speaking for everything. I think a consistent mediocrity
is better than sporadic Brilliance.
Yeah, I think if you consistently practice it, you'll
get way better than people who have this one.
Great speech and never spoke again.
Yeah, I love that, man. Based on that.
I think think that's everything that went through my mind.
And I want to round it off here actually.
I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Thanks a real good reflection of how to speak in public, right?
The different tool sets that you can use kind of to leverage and
get better. How is not about perfection?
How it's about consistency? It is really like a lot, see ya?
Because stuff, then I'm going to round off here.
Thank you so much for listening. I'm going to put all savi's
socials in the description below.
Check them out. Let them know you came from our
show. And with that being said, thank
you for listening. We'll see you in the next one.