Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akil.
And for today's episode, we covered company culture,
diversity, and inclusion. And even work culture in Asia,
because my guest worked there for a few years before she
co-founded Tech face and she's currently managing director over
there as well. Prisca Burkhardt, I'll put all
her socials in the description below.
Check her out. And without being said, enjoy
the episode into your past. And I mean, I saw you When and
did your job at Hong Kong, and even Shenzhen for a few years
before, I don't know if it was before you came into the tech
space or when it was during a song, a completely different
culture there in Asia, can you tell us a little bit about like
that, gradual step, that you make towards the tech, pause,
and even that your career steps in Asia?
Yes. So basically, I finish my
education, like I did the part-time bachelor's degree here
in Switzerland and for me, was always the goal or the idea that
I Work abroad because I'm always fascinated, especially from the
Eastern culture and this different mindsets and culture.
That always fascinated me. So, I was reaching out, I was
working at the time for UBS and I was reaching out to my bosses
saying, like, I'd like to go abroad.
Is there any kind of opportunity for me to go abroad, and they
helped me to do get this job and in Hong Kong?
And I think that, for me, it was, it was for the whole time.
I was there was still every day I had this Interaction with a
new culture and every day I learn something new about
different culture and it doesn't matter which which industry
you're in. If it's tagged or any other
industry that the culture is very important, very indicating
on how you work in the industry or have you work with all the
people and it's enriching as well as like learning new
things, not only on the task but what your people with your
teammates are teaching you with your clients, your customers, or
whoever you work with 40. Teaching.
It's very, very inspiring, very insightful and gives you lots of
idea of doing things differently than you did before.
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. I, I like to envision myself.
Also, working abroad especially in Asia just because that the
culture is seems, I don't know what it is.
Maybe a lot of the media have seen but it's very attractive to
me. The kind of experience that
because I think it's completely different.
But what is like the like a few of the biggest differences?
You've seen especially in the workplace there.
And one big difference for me was that as an employee, as a
team member, you always more or less listen to your team leader
and you never oppose. So, what your team leader is
telling you, what your boss is telling you, that's true and you
just accepted you say yes and you do it.
Whereas we and Switzerland we used to like challenges or
challenge our bosses as well. So when we had team meetings and
we discussing any kind of task or what, What you do next
project. So everybody was invited and
able to State their voice or their their insides.
This did not happen in Hong Kong so often so that was something I
had to realize pretty early and the good thing was I had a boss
and she was working for a lot of European companies before and
then for a few years as well and she was used to that kind of
working and she was seeking for this kind of working Styles.
So she was asking me to Give opinions and Opposed her
statements in the team meeting so that we can find the best way
for everyone, but with the other team members they were
struggling with my Approach is, what is this?
It was Wasn't in the beginning, it wasn't so easy and I had some
fights with team members as well because of that like the we were
clashing, but it was like at the end, it worked out well, but it
was in the beginning, we had to find our way.
How do we work together? How are we different words?
How can we make this work? And that's for me was pretty
interesting in the beginning to see how they like really with
the balls come to you and say, it tells you you have to do X.
Y said, you just say yes and you do it even if it's not working.
Ting. And then later in my career or
later in my time in Hong Kong, I was also leading a team where I
had again, didn't quite realize that this is the way you work.
So I told my team certain things to do and they say yeah it said
yes. And they went on to do this and
then like two weeks later you come up as like so what's the
status on this task? And they were like, yeah, it
didn't work. Just like yeah why didn't you
tell me? Oh you just told me to do that
and that's it. So you really To go after than
theirs, did it work? Why didn't it work?
Can we do something different? They not coming up from them by
themselves. Telling you, what would you told
me to do is not working. So it's it's a big cultural
difference there. And it's interesting to work
this way but it's a lot to learn.
You need to realize oh they think differently.
So yeah, make sure you keep that in mind and make sure you adjust
also to the way they used to work.
But at the same time also being Being able to give them an
Insight from another point of view and giving them tools and
methods, how they can do their Works differently, I thought was
as a leader as a team leader, an interesting challenge for me and
it's a place to learn as well. Yeah, I can imagine that.
I mean, as you describe the, I like that, you said, it's the
opposite for the Swiss culture. It's the polar opposite for the
Dutch culture as well. Like completely not challenging
your boss. Those decisions.
Yeah I think people here do it automatically it's so like
inherited in the culture in there that coming into a space
where that is not the norm. That's going to feel very, very
strange, very unfamiliar. I guess, where?
Exactly. Are you totally imagine in that
way, then as well. And then I talked about I'm
sorry good. I was also studying in Hong
Kong, I did my master's degree in Hong Kong, and also there was
kind of funny to see because he had and we had two teachers.
From from Asia, and teachers from Western Corridor like
Europe and the us. And it was also the way they
taught and the way they did their exams and everything was
very different. And it was kind of funny that
whenever I had a western teacher migrates, were much better than
when I had passed away. That's really crazy.
But what I was wondering is specifically back to the
workplace when it comes to diversity.
Did you see the same challenges that you see back in Switzerland
or even in Europe when it comes to 80s?
Or even the biases that there are when hiring and no, because
the one thing in Asian culture, which is very similar, I think
here also in Switzerland, but a lot of people don't realize it
yet. It's a lot of going through
Network. So you need like relationship is
One thing in Asia, that's very important.
And so if you have if you know the right people, it's easy to
get a job because you just tell the people I need a need a job
or they help you to get into the right position.
So it's all about relationship in Switzerland.
This is the case as well with the Network's.
The problem is people in Switzerland.
Don't like to network so much. So it's like, it's very
tight-knit Network. So you have certain groups like
the biggest Network existing. In Switzerland, from my point of
view is the military. The only guys are going to the
military. So if you've been in the
military, you have your network there, you know, certain people
from different kind of industry. And this is how you get also
chops as well in Switzerland. The second door Eastern, the
university. So if you've studied, you have
your network from the University and then it's your company.
But outside of this a lot of people don't build a network.
Whereas in Asia, this is very important.
If you go to a networking event in Asia, you can stand there the
whole evening and every two minutes, there's another person
coming up to you, if his card and introducing himself or
herself and talking about, they do giving the car to its later,
to go on feel like spreading your cards.
Making sure everybody knows you. So it's a lot about I'm having
this network. So, this is definitely
different. So it's, I think it's different
way of applying for jobs and in Asia, and the other Thing, which
I saw in, when we talk about diversity is in Asia, it's very
common that you have a nanny for your kids and especially in Hong
Kong, Hong Kong is a very rich country or like, the special
Administration administrative region of Hong Kong China, and
they have a lot of nannies and made from especially
Philippines, their live-in. Maids.
So as a woman, you're not, this is not an issue for you that
nobody's looking after your kids.
So, If you can go full time back to work after three months
maternity leave and you will be working from nine to ten
whatever it is require because you don't need to think about
when. Do I need to pick up my kids?
When do I need to feed them or they sake?
Do I need to stay at home? That doesn't exist there and if
you don't have the made, you have the grandmother because
that's traditional it's family. So it's it's very normal that
your mother is taking care of your kids.
So that makes it more diverse in the Regards to gender diversity.
So, you see a lot more women in leading position than compared
like in Switzerland or maybe even the rest of Europe.
Yeah, I can imagine that. I mean, if I think about my my
own upbringing, I'm the oldest. And I have three siblings.
So we're for home basically. And my mom would move Heaven and
Earth to make sure like we go to school.
She would pick us up or arrange someone to pick us up, right?
And she would do everything or at least everything with the
family. And and even with me, since I
was a little bit older than my siblings, but But I couldn't
imagine even growing up with a nanny or having someone from
kind of an outside family in there.
So the fact that is completely normal in China, like, that's
such a cultural difference and inherited in that culture.
That's so, so hard to change here.
I guess that stigma of mothers actually going back to work to
the work force for full time. Again, that seems really hard to
me, even like a cultural shift in there.
And on top of the culture, what you also have in Switzerland, is
the social structure I would say.
So we don't have like, day schools in Switzerland.
You go to school from like 8 to 12 and then you come home for
lunch and then you go back to school at 1:30 until 4:00.
So you don't have to structure, you don't have childcare like
pizzas, you don't like you do have kids, just but they're not
soft subsidized. So you need to pay them yourself
which costs a lot of money. And these are things where you
see in a lot of other countries, they just exist.
You have day school. So that you go into school at
eight in the morning. You finish a 5 and you're
entertained as a kid during this time and that doesn't exist
here. So you have no other choice than
staying at home. Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense. I mean I recognize and I see
that the diversity level as we want, it is not where it is
right now, right? We're far below that I do like
that, it's getting more awareness.
Because I think before, you can change something, you need to be
aware first of it existing in the benefits that it can bring
you. But for me the next step in kind
of Shifting that that's a cultural shift or that's an
organizational shift and those out of experience, I know those
take the longest like that is not something that happens
overnight. That's going to take a long,
long time before it can shift in and of its own.
So what would you say an organization can do to kind of
take that first step in creating that shift for their?
Own Organization for others. I think it's what you said.
It's about a warrant awareness, so you need to be aware.
First of all, who is your Workforce?
You have like yeah, do you have it all a diverse Workforce or
not? And if it's not diverse, you're
not going to change culture. Why should you change the
culture of something that works fine or that knows each other
very well. And this the same, there's no
need to change a culture with most of the time, they want to
have the diverse culture because it brings benefits such as more
Innovation and Revenues for the company.
So the first step is really being aware.
Where are we standing? How can we like, what, what do
we want to reach? Do we want to have a diverse
Workforce and then what does a diverse Workforce need to be
able to function? And we should also not think
about until you're saying okay if you want to have a diverse
Workforce, we want to have more women, women have kids.
So we need to have a family-friendly environment and
just look after parents. You don't have trust parents
your Also have people who ask for more time, or for the
different work style, because they maybe have another hobby or
they have other needs, they want to fulfill.
And so it needs to be clear that it should apply or has to be
applied to everyone. Who is part of the workforce
that if you want to change the culture, or if we want to be
able to offer more flexibility, for example, that needs to apply
to everyone and of course you can do it individually that you
Okay, every person gets what they want, but where is the
common in vilna denominator, how can we offer something everyone
can take benefit for from as well and find this one, and, and
start working from there and don't expect to change it in.
As I said overnight, it's not going to happen.
So take smaller steps on smaller changes and see how it works.
Be open to try and error. Try to change something.
See how it works. And if it doesn't work, That
just don't say oh it doesn't work, we're not doing it.
But think about why isn't it wasn't it working?
And What needs to change to make it work?
Or maybe it's something you tried and you say no, that's
definitely not going to happen in our company which is
perfectly fine as well. But understanding why it's not
happening would be very important in this case.
Yeah, yeah. I like that.
A lot when it comes to kind of those flexibility options, that
you gave the biggest one and I think the latest one is like a
work from anywhere. Or even work from any time,
right? You can do your sports and
exercises in the morning or in the afternoon.
It doesn't matter to us. As long as the job gets done at
the end of the day. That's like flexibility, why,
something that an organization can offer.
But I also like that you point at, like, where's the line in
there, right? Because you can't tailor fit
each and every person's kind of social life or their personal
life also in their professional life.
So you have to figure out what those commonalities are.
But then my question would be like, how How would you figure
that out like are you gonna do a poll with the organization and
they can select like it's gonna be democracy or because people
can also feel excluded in that way.
Yeah, absolutely. Yet I mean we are all about
democracy or in Switzerland but I guess it would be just
important that you have to talk to your employees.
You need to ask them, what do you need?
And I'm not the question of do you.
Eat now a whole stay off or do you need different kind of
working hours. It's like what do you eat to be
able to live your life and and someone that they're there for
sure people they say I want to have this 825 working hours.
I want to go to the office and have my desk and work here from
eight to five. This is what I want and others
will tell, you know, I have other things to do and I want to
start later. I want to come in maybe just two
days and then Take all this information and see how can you
pack this together. And as I said before, start with
the small Port, maybe you just start with one team and build
something around this team and figure out how it works.
And then slowly starting getting in everyone on board and
showcase, that changes are working before you try to push a
change to everyone in your Workforce.
So I think it's very important that you get your Workforce on
board from the beginning. That you talk to them, you
explain to them, why you do certain things, that you make
them aware that you're not sure if it's working.
So that often it happens like your management comes and it
tells you this is how we do it and that's the only the correct
way and then that I think that's very bad for a company because
it hinders also Innovation or different items that's to chip
in and give their opinion. So I think it's very important
for management. To say, hey look, we have an
idea. We talk to you.
This is the feedback. This is what we would like to
try. Of course, we are not sure if
it's going to work. So let's try together and see if
it works out and if it does not work out that you can stand up
as management. Say yeah we fucked up so it
didn't work out but let's try something new.
We learned the lessons we may be figured out and different way to
Sir to offer flexible work time for example but I think it's
very important. Get your Workforce on board in
the beginning, let them have to say, even make them aware that
you might not be able to adjust to everything what they saying,
but give them the opportunity to say giving their opinion as
well. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean that transparency and openness that you described.
That's what I really appreciate in kind of my management or my
leadership layer in that way. Right.
We're trying this because we're trying to solve this as a
problem. Do you guys see this problem?
Yes or no? These are the options.
These are the ones we pick. And if it doesn't work out, we
can say, well didn't work out. We gonna figure out why it
didn't work out, and we might pick one of the other options or
we're going to forego this, but at least that communication
transparency and openness, like not sweeping the failures under
the rug, but actually being open and vocal about it.
I think that that speaks volumes, at least to me when I
see that. I really appreciate that
openness and transparency, and I'm starting to expect it more
and more as well. And if it's not there, Then,
yeah, that's a signal as well. When it comes to the diversity,
in the flexibility of an organization, right?
I did a poll on my LinkedIn on this.
You want to work with people that are similar to you, or more
different than you. And a lot of people said, kind
of a balance in their right? But if you look at your own work
force and you see a lot of people similar the to you, then
probably also your hiring process is completely tailored
to that, right? Hiring people that are kind of
like minded for those reasons, but if you want to shift that
Then it really starts also with your hiring process, right?
For the people that you're hiring, they're going to look at
your culture. And if they don't see that
diverse culture that they want, they might not join your
organization in there because of that.
So then you get into this vicious cycle that your
organization is not as diverse, but then it also can't attract
diverse people because they don't see themselves in there.
Like, how can you break out of that cycle?
More from a hiring perspective. And you have to start very early
in the hiring process process. So you aren't hiring in
different places and this is what I experienced when I talk
to companies and Terry tell me I we won't find many women
applying for our jobs because you want more women and there's
like yeah you where do you post your child's?
How do you post them? And if you keep on posting them
in the same location in are in the same websites online or
LinkedIn or Groups or whatever you getting the same response.
So you first of all, need to reach out to communities groups.
Usually don't reach out to reach different people.
So it starts very, very early in the process but that doesn't
help either if you then have done in the latest steps when
you have all the in to use, if you still have the same people
doing the interviews. Yeah.
So you can bring in the diverse group of applicants, but then
you have to interview and they basically tell, you know, Oh,
it's not a good fit for our culture, that's what they
exactly went down. The line is you're not the same
as I also don't come to okay. Father, it's it's very say I
think your poll shows this. I think that the reason why it's
so balanced is a lot of people would love to say I'm looking
for a diversity or want to work with different people.
But the reality is Or not doing it consciously when they hiring.
So it's like, I'd like to like I'd like to lose weight but I
keep on eating chocolates. That's not funny.
I like that analogy. So I think this is it's very
important. That not only saying I like to
do something, but just doing it, but it's very hard because it's
very hard to discuss with someone who is not your opinion.
Yeah, and it's like it's the confirmation bias.
Find that. So it's much easier to work with
someone who agrees with you all the time, but this is not
bringing any changes or any Innovation to your product, to
your company and it's hard process.
I mean, I experienced myself for me, everybody has this issue.
You wouldn't spend, you don't want to spend the day with a
group of people. You don't agree with what they,
the way they live, for example, their opinion.
But it would be very interesting to get new Sighs to get New
Perspective and maybe start looking at processes products in
a different way. And the yeah, I think it's hard
work but it's if you want to change it in hiring process you
need to be aware and sure that you do it in every single step
and you have to measure it. So especially I, when I talked
to companies, when they say we not getting the applicants or we
don't have a high gender diversity is like yeah, where
does it stop and If most of them I must say, it doesn't even
start. So I have, yeah, they have to
start with reason like way or they resources.
How do they attract Talent? Where do they attract talents?
What's the process then in the interview process and who is
making decision, the decision at the end and then once you're
higher than the work there, what's how long will you stay
with the company? Are you as a woman?
When you say like when you want to have the gender diversity and
do you do? Those women within 6 to 12
months after hiring, or are you losing them at a later point in
time? So this is also the whole
retention topic is and also very important interesting.
Yeah. I mean the the hiring in and of
its own is a challenge already, right?
But once you've hired the right amount of people or the people
that would increase your culture and enrich and enrich the
diversity in there as well. Those people also need to have
the opportunities to grow within that company, right?
Just as everyone has If there's no position for you and you're
looking for the next step and your company can offer that,
then you're going to look outside, right?
And I think I don't know how it is for women specifically, but
do they get kind of those same opportunities or do they are
they like for gone for other people in that way as well?
No, they're not getting the same opportunities.
And here is when we talk about the differences really?
Because yeah, another thing that I hear a lot from companies or
from managers, they tell me or we treat all the same and I'm
always telling them. And this is the biggest problem
because we are not the same and so you can't give everyone the
same process because we act differently.
And I know from myself when I was still employed and working
for a big Corporation I wasn't necessarily the person who went
up to the manager. Say I want to have now a
promotion. Yeah.
But this is this is what women usually don't do.
They rather think away. I work hard.
I do my best, I bring everything into the company and then I will
automatically I will get my promotion.
This does not happen, especially not in the bigger company so you
have to really be very vocal about what you do.
You have to be in the important meetings, everybody needs to
know you that you get this promotion.
And this is this is one of the reason why it's not happening
but the question is and I'm not agreeing to this, do we need to
change ourselves to get the same opportunity?
So do I need to do a knee really as a woman?
Not being local? Do I need to change myself any
more vocal about my by performances to get the
promotion? And I say no we have to remain
as we are. We are different.
And this difference makes us what we are and be shouldn't
change and become more like The man around us to get them the
opportunity to be promoted. And that's a very important
aspect that's usually overlooked Indica companies.
I don't know much about the smallest.
I have to be working in smaller companies so often so it's
rather difficult to say but I wouldn't wouldn't be surprised
if it's the same in the smaller companies.
Yeah yeah that's interesting. I mean I do recognize that when
it comes to a promotion or a salary increase I push I do not
wait, like that is my kind of default mode, but I know my
girlfriend works at a bigger company.
That's not her default mode. She's way more reserved.
She's like I did the work, the right people know me, I deserve
this and when it does or does not happen.
Yeah, that that's where the difference is, right?
She didn't push for it, she shouldn't have to push for it,
but those processes are kind of tailor made for the people that
push for it that are more vocal that say, well, I'm frustrated
for x y&z So then they get hurt but then you overstep like the
other people that do put in the work in that way.
Like that's a complete process change.
And then I would think it starts with awareness for people that
make those decisions, right? That they are aware of the
culture that exists and the differences of the way people
work in the way people vocalize, if they're happy or not.
If that awareness is not there, then I don't think those
processes are going to change by themselves.
They won't. Yeah that's that's really
difficult than because, I mean, from my personal experience I
haven't been in those positions where I get to make those
decisions, but if you're unaware of something that is completely
happening and should be within your control, it's hard to step
out of that, right? How do people how do, how would
those processes change then? Because those people are even
aren't even aware of the things in the culture that they're
creating in that way? Yeah.
I think it's an important thing. You just said is even if you're
not a management position and you're not part of the process,
you still be able to change this or being part of the change as
well as an ally. So if you like for example if
you're in a meeting with a group of people and you realize and it
doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman, someone is not able or
is overheard is speaking up, but nobody is taking on what this
person is saying. Being this person's a lay-by,
Thing for example, but this is what she said for before.
Why don't we keep on what she's saying what she was saying or
why don't we ask her again? So, like having this La shape
and supporting those, you feel like are over hurt.
Even if you're not the manager and I think that that's one
thing, which I feel is very important, which I also see is
happening now, after having all this discussion about diversity,
we need to start discussion discussing inclusion.
And that's like the video. We need the diversity as basis,
but we need to inclusion to make it grow at the end of the day.
So we need to have everyone on board.
When we talk about divert her City and not just saying, well,
we have a minority group, is it women?
Or is it any other group that is not as present, as in the
male-dominated area as man, but we being able to include
everyone in the process. And not just say, yeah, whatever
we do is just for a man, a minority group and we just
taking care of them. But what can I do as being part
of not the minority group to help including them in my
Workforce as well as the minorities.
Need to think about how can we get the inclusion of the bigger
the majority group to make this really happen to make this
change happen? Yeah, I agree with that.
I do think though, like when, when there's tight deadlines and
when Their stress, and there's a meeting involved and it's
usually the same people talking, right?
So then you kind of, because of that pressure in those
deadlines, you overstep that inclusion and you're like, okay,
we're kind of in an operational mode.
We need to get stuff done and you don't take the time to
include everyone in those decisions and those opinions
then because those need time in that way, right?
You can't do that as well. I think, or it's challenging to
do that when things are really crunching deadline noise and I
feel like almost in every organization that I In that
lines are always there and the time is always the issue.
Yeah. If you fall back to you usual
pattern, if you're on exactly. But you can train that before.
I mean, you can think about how do I react in stress and how can
I not react this way when I get into a stress situation?
So, similarly, stress situation and being more aware of how
you're reacting and Ida saying, this is the time, it's kind of
funny. I was reading an article
recently where they say that diverse and teams.
Are able to solve problems. Better than McCain is team and
they did, they did a test like they research that they put
people together and they had homogeneous team, they couldn't
solve a problem, whereas diverse people, they were faster in
solving the same problem so I mean, yes, time is always an
issue, but I think even there, you'll have a good argument when
you say, well, if we bring in everyone and being able to hear
from These side their input. We might find a better solution
that saves us time as well. Yeah I like that a lot right
because then time you looking either short-term or long-term
right. If taking the time right now is
going to give us the better solution down the long run.
Then it will save you that time because you make better
decisions because of that. But if you don't see that if you
have kind of that shortsightedness in you you're
like okay the fastest decision. So we we fill the fastest and we
learned from there, right? Those are two completely
different paradigm. Times and being aware of that,
that result right more brains, more diverse brains, think of
better Solutions in the end can save you time down the long run.
I really liked that dish in there.
Yeah. Absolutely when it comes to
organizations right let's say we do have diverse organizations.
I've been in a team where I was sitting at a lunch group, it was
like one of the first jobs I had and I was counting like each and
everyone's different culture or background and we had like eight
different nationalities at the same table and was like, that's
a Be cool feeling because I learned a lot from there.
So for me, when I'm looking at jobs or when I have looked the
jobs in the past, I look for that kind of multinational
diversity in there. But it's kind of hard to see
from the outside if an organization has that, because
all we're going, has a shins preach all.
We're diverse organization and we have these social structures
in place, and it's better over this side.
But how do you actually poke holes through that and see that
either from the interview process?
Process or from the outside. In that way, when you're looking
to apply for a job, we actually offer workshops to do that.
And okay, I think it's easy. So there are two steps.
Like the first one is before you apply for a job, you can
investigate company and you have thanks to social media, a lot of
resources to do that. So just go on LinkedIn and see
how is the company presented there and then different things.
Like first of all, are they talking just about the products
and services? Or are they talking about their
people as well? So how do they communicate to
the outside world? And when they talk about their
people who are they, what are they doing?
What have they reach? Are they from different level
from different backgrounds, and ethnicity and so on, then you
can also investigate the people or who are working in the
company. So if they have connected them
on LinkedIn to the company. So you can see, what are they,
what are they actually doing the whole day?
Are they posting anything on? LinkedIn about the company or
are they interested in other topics?
Are they active and the more active, they are, the more are
they connected to the company and feel like?
Yeah, this is a company I work for.
I'm happy to work here as well. And then you can, of course, you
can see, who is it? That does that also is usually
more like the managers, is it? Everyone on the and on in the
company and so on and then you have also Instagram.
You have Facebook is dying a bit or Tick Tock as well.
Companies are starting being on take though it's really there's
a lot of opportunity to investigate and then, of course,
their website itself as well. And I mean, it's for me, it's
always so funny when I see, when I visit the website of companies
and they talk about diversity and how important that is.
And then you scroll down and you see the team and it's all like,
white guys index, only thing people.
Yeah, your divers. And then I mean this is a
complete turnoff for me and or even their management board,
it's like everyone looks the same Same.
There is no dice, not even a gender diversity and it's for me
it's really this is a sign. You can talk as much as you want
about. We are diverse if you're not
showing, it is so like I was at the Europe Forum yesterday
talking about Millennials in Europe and they say, show me,
don't tell me it's really show me what you really do.
You can talk as much as you want but you have to really show me.
So this is the first step you can do investigate the company.
And then when you're in the interview process, Says he can
think about questions you want to ask.
So like we do when we do these workshops with company about
what's the culture. So we have I spend 23 hours with
the company asking questions. And I'm asking myself, if I ever
would apply for this job, I would ask exactly the same
question but unfortunately, they wouldn't have three hours time
from a previous interview with these.
Are the questions I'm asking is like, who is your like, who's
your hero, who is the person people are?
Looking up in the company and like these are questions you can
think about before like note down this question set not have
anything to do with your job per se.
But can you some indication on what's the cultural for example?
How do you, how does the management communicate with the
stove? He said, just like the usual
letter they sending out, or is there really an open door
policy? And if they say, yeah, if you
have Open Door policies, like give me an example, when you use
their own, And or policy for yourself.
So this there are questions. You can ask to understand if
it's just the the lip Services by.
Yeah, we are diverse and we write it on our website.
But in reality we aren't or are they really diverse Exactly.
I like the example of, I mean, even LinkedIn because the
involvement of people like a company doesn't get to decide
that, right? It's your LinkedIn profile.
You get to decide what you like and what you don't like.
But if you really like, what a company is putting out there,
you can see that you are aligned with that company.
From an outside perspective, which then means probably you
really like the company. You like working there.
So from an outside perspective that must be a good company to
work with them as well. And when it comes to that
interview process, I've been a lot of Reviews, I've talked to
this in the past, I did interviews to get better at
interviewing. And one of the things I learned
was has to be a match for both sides, right?
So when it's your time to ask questions, ask those questions,
take all the time that you can get asked how long you can, you
can ask those questions and ask as many as you can, to get that
information to see if this is the workplace that you would see
yourself in even when it comes to diversity and inclusion and
openness and transparency because I think, but this is my
personal opinion. I'm wondering what your take.
This is what is it? As well, I think organizations
need to distinguish themselves, not just by compensation.
But what they offer next to that when it comes to their culture,
their work force their way of working and what they offer for
the people with regards to the match of kind of their
professional life and their personal life, I think the
organizations that do that. Well, our organizations that are
going to make it to the Future and organizations that cannot do
that. Well, I'm not going to make it
for the long run. Absolutely, I fully agree to
that. There was another study I read
recently about Millennials and they're looking more for
diversity than salary. Say they would reject the job
offer. Even if the salary is better, if
they don't show A diversity in the workforce.
Yeah. And that's just one part.
The other part is also, how can I grow in a company?
And this is what I hear a lot when I have coaching calls and
they asked me. So, what could be a good company
for me? I want to have a company.
I want to work for a company where I can grow as well.
I have opportunities to develop and either become a leader or go
into a different direction, and this is what everyone not just
women are looking for. And if you're not able to
present that or to offer that, you going to lose big time in
the future the company. Yes, yeah, absolutely.
One of the lingering questions I still had, was you touched on
networking early on when it comes to the Asian culture?
That it's a bit more normal in there that you get your jobs
even through those relationships?
Ation ships and your network that you have, but when I look
at my my personal Network it's now getting bigger and bigger
but early on I didn't want to pay attention to my network.
I didn't know the value that it could bring to me and I mean I'm
partly introverted partly extroverted but coming up to
someone in like a networking event.
I didn't even think about going to networking events because I
was like nah that's just not not for me.
When it comes to the network. In the value that it can add.
What would you say? Or what advice would you give
The focus on when you're a bit more early in career, when it
comes to building your personal Network, right?
When you haven't gone to the Army or two new to University
and you don't have that default Network through there.
Yeah. I mean, I'm very similar than
you. I still hate Network.
I still hate going to, you know, I love to go to events where I
have to speak, because then it makes it easier for me because
everybody comes to me after I know you.
Yeah, exactly. So that's the easiest way.
But anyway, if you're not in this situation, early in your
Career, you're not even you're not, unless you're really an
expert in something yourself and get invited to speak at events.
But just focus on events with specific topic and don't try to
go to networking events. They're very, very Broad and
open so I tracting everyone, but make sure you go on a topic so
you could be, for example, e on that development or maybe some
and it's very specific, AI topic and I'll pee if it's in the tech
area of it, make sure you pick a topic.
That's very I think because that makes you do ready easier to
have starting ground for discussion, so you can always go
up and to someone and say, so what brings you here, what's
your relation to? For example, a, if you go to
these kind of events, it makes it a bit easier to talk about.
Whereas, when you have this big networking events, you don't
know what the other people are doing.
And I always feel it's hard to go to someone else.
So what are you doing? Like, if you have this topic
makes it easier. You also events where you see
that they have an interaction part.
So, for example, and they say, okay, we have a speech and then
afterwards, we have workshops in small groups and it's also
easier to get the conversation going.
So you have to first step and a lot of people, and this is the
mistake I did as well. You just Network within your own
company, especially when you work with bigger companies.
So, just like, try to get out of your own company.
And if you want to stay Within, Company try to get connected to
people with outside the your usual circle of people or the
team that area will you working with.
So I think that's that's something that needs to be done
to really open up your network to other peoples, I think
events. And then outside your team and
there are actually a lot of interesting platforms giving you
the opportunity to network with people, you would usually not me
like this. It was one a condom member
whereiscliffy. Called haven't been attending it
and but it was a platform where you can sign up.
And then you can and have some meetings you sign up for two
meetings, with anyone from the platform where we have some
similar interests and they just set up the meeting for you and
then you meet them at lunch time, for example, for 45
minutes call and it was very interesting to see that it was
never a dull meeting. It was never very versatile
there thinking like well what do we talk about?
Let's talk about anything and it went from one topic to the next
to the next. It was always very interesting
and this kind of meeting. So there are platforms out there
where you can do this kind of thing.
So search for these to broaden your network and then use
LinkedIn as well. I mean, LinkedIn is perfect
place. I feel everyone who is on
LinkedIn and rejecting any kind of invitation on LinkedIn is
questionable for me, because why are you acting?
And the only reason, the only good Important advice, I give
here is, you always have to give a good reason or and message
when you reach out to someone on LinkedIn.
So, if someone just sent me a request without telling me why
they want to connect with me or without seeing obviously that we
have something in common. I don't accept these kind of
request but if someone is very genuine coming to me saying,
hey, interesting profile, I'd love to follow you.
Can we connect here? I'm open to connect with anyone.
And also, they can send me afterwards a message.
Maybe ask for a half, a quick chat over coffee online, coffee
or so. I love these kind of meetings
even if it's just a one-off meeting.
But it's it's not portunity to get, you know, someone else and
to get to know one other perspectives.
I think online networking is equally important as offline,
networking? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I love the example of, like, finding common ground when it
comes to kind of the those offline networking.
Working moments because then you already have conversation
starters without that. I completely agree with you.
It's really hard to come up to someone and be like, how was
your day? Are you doing completely?
Yeah, there is one thing at one other option but that's very
seldom that's happening. If you have the chance to get
the list of attendees or if you see that other people are
attending the same event, try to reach out to them before the
meeting. And say, hey, I've seen your
attending the event, very interesting.
I would love to talk to you about X Y set at the meeting, or
at the event. Let's checked there.
And then when you see the person, if this is possible,
then you can go up and say, hey, I reached out to you before, the
makes it easier as well to break the ice.
Yeah, yeah. That's a nice one.
This guy, I really love how this conversation flowed kind of
getting an Insight in your personal history working in Asia
as well. And your take on diversity
inclusion and Company culture and how we can shift it to the
Better is there anything that's missing that you would still
want to add on top of that? No, I think we talked about a
lot of things that we call it a lot of guys.
Thank you so much for coming on. I'm going to round it off here.
Then I'm going to put all her socials and links in the
description Prescott Burkhardt. I hope I pronounced your name
correctly like that all the way towards the end, but I'm gonna
put all her. So she's in description below.
Check her out. Let her know you came from our
show. And with that being said, thank
you for listening. We'll see you on the next one.