Hi everyone, my name is Patrick Akio and if you're interested in
mentorship design, creative engineers as well as
selfreflection, this episode is for you.
Joining me today is Olyona Volkova.
She's a Principal Product Designer over at Mobiquity and
she's mentored over 100 people and is now mentor over at ADP
List. I'll put all her socials in the
description below, check her out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode.
You know, this experiments when you like put the person in the
room and they can hear only themselves or they go crazy.
They wouldn't go crazy if they were just lived by themselves.
They could get crazy because they called them.
There was a room that's like completely sent room and you
could hear your own heartbeat and nothing else.
Yeah, there's there was this experiment and people are going
crazy. Yeah, because that's that's the
silence. Only your heartbeat.
For some reasons it very much impacts.
Our mental health, like I feel, yeah.
Do you think do you think you would be able to handle that
like are? But I'm very curious.
Yeah, right. I'm I, I'm a person that gets
really curious as well. Like we we had this kind of
workshop with a lot of people and there was this person that
was talking about Japanese culture and like being more
mindful. That was kind of the his mantra
And it was like, OK, make sure your your feet are on the
ground, your ground that you're going to close your eyes, put
your hands on your lap and you're going to count your
breathing. And at the end, I want you to
tell me how much breath she took, basically.
And then I was like, OK, I can do this.
And I focused on my breathing. It was completely fine.
And then at the end, I don't know how long it was.
Maybe a minute or so. He was like, how was that?
And in my head, I was like, easy done.
And other people like, man, it's so hard to focus.
And my mind goes everywhere. And I started thinking about
work or life or. And I was like, oh, my goodness,
maybe I'm like innately more relaxed.
But for me, it was easier to just turn my mind off, I think,
yeah. Maybe you are like having really
good focus or maybe overall very like Grounded and maybe like
Zen. Yeah, but that's how you come
across as well. That's why I was wondering like
how would you kind of experience that you think?
Am I? Am I coming across again?
Very relaxed, I feel like. Yeah, I've heard it a lot from
people, yeah. And I've heard also from people
they have. Like calming, like people feel
calm around me. But to be honest, like I am
intentionally calm myself down. I'm overall quite anxious
person. So I have anxiety.
Yeah. So I I like trying to focus on
the real time because the anxiety comes from overthinking
about the future. Yeah.
So if you think about what's happening right now, you don't
think about the future, so you feel calmer.
So that's that's what I do like. But I don't know, I think maybe
it would work. It's 5050 chance, yeah, but you
you actively try to calm yourself down.
Yeah. Now like, that's like something
for me and like that I've never done before.
So and I do this like as exposure therapy.
So there are things that I'm scared or anxious about.
Like damn, what if I say something wrong?
What if like people, they will feel, they cancel me?
Yeah, So. And I intentionally do that to
see how it goes. I see how I feel.
And I was like, it's actually not as bad.
Like, it's just my mind going crazy and you build up a
tolerance. Yeah, it takes some time.
With public speaking, Yeah, that's hard because for me it
was public speaking, The first public speaking that I did last
year, I was in front of my company and that's like, OK,
like, it's safe environment for me.
I know those people. They're nice.
They're a lot of like friends, like in the crowd, like half of
them were remote. So I don't see them.
Fine, perfect. I was like, it's perfect time
for me to practice it. And I went there.
And I was so stressed because, like, my gosh.
And again, this is all we're thinking, right?
Yeah. Like in reality, there's nothing
scary. And I went there and I swear,
like, it felt like my soul left my body.
Really. And I don't remember anything.
Like, I went there. So I was still like, very
nervous, like, but I was prepared.
Just brain. I went there and I stood up and
then it felt like my soul left my body and I was watching
myself from above. It's basically it's called
association and and I didn't remember anything like seriously
don't remember, but it was recorded so I could watch
myself. But a lot of people came after
me and said you were so good and you were so funny.
Like what was I like, I don't remember, but that was the first
like a very like radical. The next one was a bit better
so. I was waiting for this moment
when I was like, OK, this is OK. I just started thinking and then
some moment in the middle, I just started enjoying it, OK And
it was fun actually, that's quite nice.
So and then the panel there was I was this year like a few
months ago. I wasn't the latest that UX
Amsterdam panel and I've never done the panel.
So public speaking, just you preparing the speech, you have
the slides to support you, right?
You got this. So you it's fine, It's kind of
like safer. But here you never know what's
going to be asked. It's so random, right?
But I was like, oh, it's OK. I don't have to answer.
Yeah. Because there are five, I think
41234 ladies in total. So I was one of four like
ladies. And they were amazing.
Like, they were very experienced, much more
experienced than me. So just, I can just chill if I
don't know what to say. I was like, you know what?
I don't know. Yeah.
So just like, I would go the flow and it was quite fun.
And then and we were also like, can I, can I, can I have
something to say? Exactly, Yeah.
When you're, when you're looking at kind of the footage of you
standing on stage or for example on that panel, do you recognize
that still you? Because for me, sometimes I'm
like, there's a different person.
It's weird, right? Yeah, right.
No, I cannot. Like, I I feel so awkward
watching myself. Really.
I know. It's me.
Yeah, that's The funny thing. But it's like, is it is.
Because I think we, when we look in the mirror, we're static in a
way, right? We don't really move or talk.
So we didn't see ourselves talking or moving, yeah.
So how do I know how other people perceive me?
How do I move? What what?
Like, how do I walk? Yeah, because my aneurysms and.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like with the people that you
know, you know, even the way if you know them for a long time,
you know, the way they walk. Yeah.
Right. I have no idea how I walk.
Is it, is it good? Yeah, I know.
I mean there there is no good or bad.
I feel like that's true, yeah. But it's like, I don't know how
I walk, like a rapper or something, you know?
Or. It's like tip toes have no clue.
Yes, that's funny. I have that same feeling
sometimes where I like have this kind of out of body experience
where time flies. And I did.
For example last year also for my company, we had like a public
speaking event. I did that.
And then afterwards, like, I started fixating on all the
things that didn't go as great in my mind.
And people would come up to me and would say, like, they really
liked certain components. And I was like, yeah, but this
could have been better or delivery there and blah, blah,
blah. Like, I started kind of
undercutting myself. And then someone called me out
on that. They were like, why are you
doing that? Because basically everyone is
giving you these compliments. It's true.
And you're trying not to accept them.
And for me, that was really, like, confronting in a good way.
I was like, yeah, that is what I'm doing.
And I should probably not do that because most likely that's
not healthy. Yeah.
Have you stopped doing that? I try.
Like now I'm way more conscious when I'm doing that.
I'm trying to accept compliments.
I feel very awkward doing that. Maybe that's the Dutch thing,
but yeah, I'm trying to be better there.
How do you accept? What do you say?
And I try and be more grateful, Like actually, genuinely say
thank you And just, I mean, for me it feels awkward.
It's weird, right? Saying thank you for a
compliment and then feeling awkward about it.
I shouldn't feel awkward, but I do.
So I try and do that more and yeah, get used to it I feel
like. Yeah, yeah, I know the feeling.
You do. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's true. Like, I think that's kind of
like a self esteem, right. So like the perception of others
don't really much with the perception of you.
Like I have the same when people tell me a compliment, I feel
like so. And I noticed that too, like.
Of a colleague of mine, she said, like, it seems like, do
you do it for attention? Like do you diminish yourself
and say that you're not as good because you're seeking of
attention? I was like, do I, That's
actually a good question. Like maybe and intentionally
right or like because I I seek for validation, right.
We all kind of like a seek for validation bit but because when
we get a bit, we feel like we don't deserve it sometimes and
it's like a conflict. So yeah, but when I receive it,
I was experimenting with replies.
I'm saying that thank you. And I was sometimes saying,
like, I know, but I was like it feels I feel more powerful when
I says like, oh, you look good today.
I was like, I know because I was.
I was trying to look at today. Yeah, it but it's just a bit
arrogant, right. So it's like, I feel like it's
douchey, yeah. Yeah, but at the same time like.
I know I put a lot of effort to do that, but I think there is
something in it to kind of like, yes, I know I was doing that.
I was working really hard for that, right.
Yeah. So you kind of like take
responsibility by the same. It sounds.
Do she? Yeah, yeah.
It depends how you do it. You can say like, yeah, I tried
today. Like is different than being
like, I know. Yeah, but if you tried it again,
you kind of like diminish yourself again.
I get that. It's it's funny to me because
when when someone said OK, do you do that on purpose?
In my head I was like, no, never.
But then you were like maybe maybe unintentionally, Yeah, I
feel like you're very much. How do you say that
introspective in that way and you self reflect a lot.
Do you do that actively? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have.
Because I have anxiety. Anxiety and overthinking go hand
in hand. Yeah, and I know that I
overthink, but I'm trying now to overthink in a positive way.
I don't know if it's a technique or something.
I never read about it. But instead of like over
thinking what can happen, yeah, I'm trying to over think about
what happened. And think where, like, I didn't
do as good as I could and try to come up with an outcome as a
lesson because I had this pattern in my head when hey,
like, damn, that was a horrible. Like, why did you say that?
Yeah, like, like you saw they didn't like it.
Or erection was bad. Like how like you're so stupid
or something. Like, no, no, no, I don't like
this. I don't like this talk.
Yeah. So now I was like, OK, I don't
like what I said, like let's think about what I did.
Reflect on that. What can I do better next time
like and in this case, it helps me not to feel guilt like or
blame myself or anything. And the next time I already know
what to do because I thought look at that, I analyzed that,
yeah. And it kind of like overthinking
for good. Yeah, I get that.
Is that because those thoughts, those are kind of self
reflections for me. It helps when I'm talking to
someone about it, when someone says, OK, let's think about last
week or the last two weeks, like what?
What really stood out to you? What happened?
That kicks off all the gears in my head and then I start self
reflecting, right? I start really evaluating what
happened, how that made me feel, how I reacted and stuff like
that. But for me the other person
really triggers that or helps with that.
I've never tried to sit down and for example write it's because I
don't really like writing that much.
Do you have kind of a system that helps you self reflect?
I try to write like I was writing a lot when I was a kid.
I think in Eastern Europe where I'm from, a lot of girls write
Diaries, but now I forget about it constantly.
I like journaling, but sometimes it's boring.
So instead I would just every time after I did something, I
reflect, yeah, it's already like became a habit.
So I often time have calls like at work with my team members
when I'm supposed to coach them. And I'm still learning.
Like I'm still learning how to be better manager, how to be
better coach. And after that I was like, OK,
what do you think you could do better like you said that, Do
you think it's the best way to say that?
Could you instead maybe less talk and more focus on them and
ask the questions? And then I write it down because
I also can forget about it easily.
And I reflect, OK, next time try to do this, like try to ask
questions about them more, because it's also like, it's a
part of your job. This is, I have like a vision of
who I want to be. Yeah.
And then this reflection helped me to go to the direction who I
want to be. I like that a lot.
Yeah, the self reflecting more so when it happens rather than
postponing it, right, because then it kind of trickles down
because other stuff happens and you might lose the value there.
Yeah, I my brain is like, it feels like there are a lot of
holes. So I have to write down, I cost
like easily forget. So that's just the way my, my
brain works. Yeah.
So I have to write down the things all the time.
I have to reflect on the spot. Otherwise I forget it.
Like everything that we've done, like a week last week, a month,
a year ago. I don't remember anything.
Like, do you? Maybe that's it.
Yeah, yeah, I do. You remember a lot of details,
but things stick with me. Really.
I feel like I have a really good memory.
Ah, how did you do? You know, How did you get it?
Did you always develop it? It's always been like that.
Like even as a kid I would be like, no, that's not what I
said. And I could sometimes when I
would, I would, I could show proof.
I would show exactly that what I said was actually what happened.
Basically, when I'm wrong, I also admit it because obviously
my memory is not perfect, but I do feel like I have good memory.
I remember things that people say.
I don't know why. That's cool.
I think that's really cool. I wouldn't say it's like, how do
you say that Photographic memory?
No, that's not it. Because if you give me a sheet
of paper, I'll remember a few things.
But it's not like a snapshot like some people have.
It's just, yeah, some things stick with me, yeah, other
things don't. But maybe it's not the visual
memory, it's maybe ears, like the, how's it called, like the
memory that's come from listening, It could be.
And there's also the memory that's coming from experience,
right? So when you experience things,
then you know how to do that. Or so you need to have like
touch it. For example, like cooking.
You can read about recipe. Yeah, you can watch about the
recipe on YouTube. Or you can cook it and you'll
forever remember it. Interesting.
I'm really gonna have to think about which one it is then.
If it's visual, kind of auditive or so the experience, that's an
interesting one. Yeah, like, I know for me it's
actually visual. Yeah.
So I write things if I want to remember, and I have really
sophisticated, like, it's really weird memory, but I remember
where I put the things. So I have the visual memory to
the point I can walk through my apartment in my memory and
remember what is I have on every shelf.
Yeah, but I don't remember names.
What is this? And the numbers if I write a
number down. I will remember it like maybe
forever. Like the phone numbers that they
have really, ten years ago? That's cool.
Yeah, it's still remembered. Does it?
Does it work with typing as well or it has to be?
Handwritten. Yeah.
I think it's with the typing. We don't really focus.
I think when typing, it's just like it's a habit.
It's like talking, right? Yeah.
I don't really think about it anymore.
When I type, yeah. So it's the conscious act of
writing there. Interesting.
I wanna get into what you're doing more on a day-to-day now
with regards to helping people and mentoring people.
But before that I saw on your LinkedIn and you also pointed
this out that you were software engineer before you do what you
do now. How did you make that transition
into what you're doing now? Yeah, just to before I go to
this, sure. My experience is very much
different from experience now. Like what people experience
because I started 10 years ago or so, yeah.
The tech world was completely different and the like.
I overall, I started to be honest when I was a kid because
I was photoshopping a lot when I was a kid.
I was CS2 or something, or CS3, the first Photoshop that I had
experience with. So I was having my own business
and when I was like 14 or so, editing pictures for money.
Yeah, yes, it's just like coins because you don't really need
much. And like in Kazakhstan I where
I'm from. And like it was like when I was
14, it was like 15 years ago or so, like there was like
everything was like a very low price.
So and design didn't exist at that moment.
So I was just like you need a picture, you need Avatar.
There was a social network I was creating the I've contacted
which is Russian social network and I was creating avatars for
money. Yeah, if you've ever used
Photoshop, there was this ugly stamps.
And there was a lot of curves and I was like, I'm gonna put
them everywhere. And sparkles, yeah, it was
horrible. But it was my first designs and
I left computers and I left dads and I just accidentally kind of
ended up with doing Photoshop. But then when I decided that I
need to go and study. My family, we didn't have like
enough money for the university, so I decided to go to college
instead. Yeah, and there was a college
that had the cybersecurity and they had also classes with
developer like coding. I think it was Java.
And I was like, that sounds fun. I love computers building also
quite a lot. Like I was playing games.
I was like, I can build my games.
And so I went there. That was a lot of fun.
I've learned a lot. But there was something is off.
It's like not exactly me. So the best class that I enjoyed
the most was design. Yeah, we did Photoshop.
Exactly. And I was like, I already didn't
know what to do. Yeah, I got this.
We're gonna help you to do that. So, and that was like that was
Android the most of it. We also had there still on CSS
and I was like we're also doing some lending pages and stuff
there. I don't remember JavaScript, I
think JavaScript existed, but very basic.
It's like 2013 twelve, yeah. And then I had to get a job SAP,
because I had some family situation and I had to make
money from a family for my family.
And I asked my teacher, hey, do you have anyone who has a job?
And she said yeah. My friend, he has a startup and
okay just go to this store. It's a clothing store that is so
close. Go to the basement, that seems.
And my friend is there. And I was like okay.
So I called him. We agreed and I went there.
It was like this closed store was like a very fancy clothes.
And then there was a basement and I went down to basement.
There was storage of clothes and there were three desks.
And one of them was this guy who had a startup and the other was
like, I think he was something between the developer and the
marketer. So they had the social media
business. So they were like promoting
stuff on social media. And I was like, hey, I'm my own,
I'm a designer. And I also can code because I
was studying it. And I said that's your desk.
That's it get. Started Folio interview None.
So I just I picked up my own laptop.
Of course, because of startup they didn't have laptop.
I said there, and that was my first job and I was doing a lot
of like lending pages. I did a lot of banners.
There was all the stuff like different types of design,
design and implementation. Yeah, because it's not a
product. It wasn't product, it was social
media. So we didn't really implement
but we used we created some like a graphic materials for the
social network also again that one social network that I was
working was a 14 of conducting. So we're creating some stuff for
that. And I was using some basic
coding skills for it. And I also started creating some
landing pages. And I loved it.
Like creating it was a single sentence and it lived like, it's
just like, wow, yeah. And then I decided to move.
That said, there's not much for me in Kazakhstan.
There was, yeah, there's not many jobs.
I decided to move to St. Petersburg.
So I moved to St. Petersburg and I was like, I am
gonna be a developer because designer, it's not a real job.
Just like you draw some pictures, it wasn't a job much.
So I wanna be a developer, as a developer, as a serious guy and
I love it so and I got a job as the front end developer.
That was a lot of fun. So that was more hardcore
JavaScript already. And because I was a small
company, except the front end, I was also doing back end and I
was my s s square. It was like 2014 Okay MSS
Square. There was a thing, apparently I
don't remember that was also quite nice.
I actually enjoyed it like the back end part.
But because they had Photoshop skills I still was doing design.
I was like, we know that you have some experience.
Like, yeah, can you like do this?
Than in Page that like that website, the app.
So I started doing the apps and we were building mobile apps
with extras and that was a framework there.
I think it still exists, yeah. And then I was like, OK, I think
I'm done with developing now. I won't design.
Yeah, now that it's more established, if you like, yeah.
And then I got some invite, like in e-mail, like, hey, we're
looking for designer, we saw you your CV, do you want to come to
the interview? I was like, yeah, sure.
I came there with the folder and with my pictures that I made
screenshots of. That was my first portfolio,
just the folder. Like.
My second was PDF. I just put the SIM as a PDF, but
the first was just folder with screenshots of stuff that I did
and I was just like and does this and then that.
Next. Next.
Yeah.
And I got a drop and it was a UX UI drop and then I learned a
lot. That was my first like a serious
one where we did a lot and I had an amazing lead there.
She was very like a nitty gritty pixel perfect.
Every time I was sending to her she was like sending back like
and and I was like damn, like is it that bad.
But since I'm she taught me a lot on how to be like a very
pixel perfect thanks to her still am.
Yeah. And that was like a proper
product development. So we had, I think it doesn't
like around 10 products like small and big but the biggest
one it still exists, it's called Unite.
It's like a communication tool like a slack and we were
building it from scratch that was a lot of fun.
Like we're also talking to the users all the dating, there was
7 designers working on that and different pieces of it and I was
leading that. That was also like my first
experience of leading it. That was quite exciting and
because I was still coding, I could help but I didn't really
code. So also like.
It's my main focus. Yeah, I was still kind of
missing it, but it was always in between.
I don't know. For me, it's always in between.
And there were not that many at that time.
Creative developers that exist now.
Yeah, so they're either or. And after that, I moved with my
ex partner here to Netherlands and I got a job here and I work
almost for four years already. My biquity.
Yeah. And also for me, there was
tremendous growth from a senior to stuff.
Right now I'm a principal designer.
That was a lot of growth, a lot of work, a lot of different cool
products that also built on Scratch.
I was on one or two projects as a front end developer.
Yeah, I was gonna ask. Yeah, really.
Because Zach. Yeah, our development director,
he's like, hey, we need front end developers, but everyone is
busy. Yeah.
Can you help? Okay.
And then he said it's gonna be a few months.
It ended up, I think six months. OK.
But I loved it. Yeah.
Yeah, that's good. So enjoy.
Yes, like, that was so cool. That was also a lot of we are
creating the commerce website. So it's helping me to build a
commerce website. That was fun.
Yeah. So it's always for me.
Like that's like, now I do consider myself more as a
product designer because I've learned a lot about product
design. I was mentoring people about
product design. I am not a developer because all
this time I mostly was focusing on design.
So I don't know all the, I mean works, but I can do develop some
basic stuff, yeah, I can create my own website.
So yeah. And like I do JavaScript, yeah.
Do you still program nowadays? Like sometimes, either with work
or something personal. Sometimes, yeah, not that often
as I wish. Right now I'm more like I'm
trying to learn the 3GS and Webgel isn't very much, it's
more in between. Like I always loved math when I
was in college and also like I went to university when I was in
Spaceburg also studied so engineering there.
That was hardcore coding. There was JavaScript or Java and
it was C Yeah that was like that was fun so and I loved it.
Also it's tickles different parts of your brain.
So if design is something that you can explore and expand and
then developing is more like a logical tasks and you have like
a task and you like what is the best way for me to solve it.
Yeah. And you know some patterns and
you know some ways to solve it. So you can go like this or like
this or like this and it feels, I feel like engagement shorter.
When you're a developer, you have a task you need to do it
and you feel satisfied. Yes.
OK, I did solved. Yes.
With design, it can take so long until you feel happy then
because there's so many stages you have to like sometimes
products take like weeks or months to develop, right.
So it's a non-stop like iteration, exploration, bringing
ideation. So it's more like outside and
it's like development is more like narrowed down.
Yeah, so that's what I love about it and it feels nice
solving something and it's working.
It's like you feel so good about yourself.
Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, I love that.
The thread throughout kind of what you did was still design.
Yet you still found kind of variation and leveraging what
you learn through programming, right?
A front end job. Not everyone can do that for six
months. Just picking it up and having
fun with it. Also enjoying it genuinely.
I think that's really cool. Do you think your knowledge of
both kind of development as well as design helps you in what you
do now in understanding or being more effective for sure, Yeah, I
think so. I think the biggest benefit of
that is that I can understand the architecture approximately.
I'm not a solution architect. I'm not on that level far away
from that. But I can approximately imagine
how it's going to be built. Yeah.
Or if there is a solution, I can't, like, make it separated
into parts, right. So I know what's the back and
how the back end works and what's the front and how they
communicate through the API. Yeah, you can break it down.
Yeah. So what's different?
The frameworks exist. What is to do like how they
differentiate from each other? Like all of those like right, I
can know what's the rate of the act and just rate and react,
right? So you can use rate of the act
and to which rec native, not rate native rectative.
So I can understand the differences and make it and
break into the pieces and also collect it in the pieces if it's
needed. So that helps me and also it
helps of course with the communications with developers,
because I know what they say and they see sometimes in junior
positions and like in the beginning designers, when they
start, it's a common problem, communication with developers,
yeah, because if they don't have much of experience or
understanding of how the products are built, actually
they just speak on different layers.
So both of them are right, but because they use different
language, they don't understand each other.
Don't hear each other. Yeah.
So it could create a conflict.
I see it less and less because I feel like more and more
designers right now have experience with it.
OK, let's deal. Sometimes I hear phrases like
those designers. Those developers, Yeah.
That's not what you want. No.
It's like we're on the same page, right?
We just speak sometimes different languages, right?
But we do the same thing like we do it together on our team.
Yeah, I love that. And then either you can be the
bridge or I feel like sometimes it really helps to just call
people out and be like. You know you two are saying the
same thing, right? And just talking to each other
or you're saying something and they understand it, but you
don't see that they understand. It's like this communication
thing is is very difficult sometimes and especially if you
don't have kind of the knowledge of what goes on in each other's
kind of work field on a more day-to-day because that's what
they're advocating for, right? Sure, you're in the team and you
have this kind of common goal, but everyone is still
responsible for their part and wants to do their part the best.
And that might sometimes clash if you don't understand each
other exactly right. But how is it for you?
You're as a development site, so how do you feel about designers?
I think I've had the fortune to work with designers that when I
talk to them, when I'm trying to communicate something, I feel
like they really understand where I'm coming from nice.
And they're very flexible in being like okay if this is.
Very difficult at the moment if this is a simple solution or I
also like just showing what my version of kind of the reality
would be. They kind of collaborate and we
more so Co create. For example, I've worked with a
party that would give me a design and then I would have to
implement the design and that's harder because then it's kind of
I feel like they're just the party I have to manage right?
While if the people are more so in my team I can sit next to
each other and we can be like okay.
This is what we have now. Tell me what you think they'll
be like, OK, these things need to change, these things are
fine, blah, blah, blah. We do it on the spot and I feel
like then that's it. That's the most effective way is
doing it together rather than having this kind of this barrier
in between. I feel like, yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I'm happy that it's getting more and more there,
right? Yeah.
Yeah.
I see this like and it makes me very happy.
Yeah. I can imagine.
I haven't seen what you've seen that people are more.
Aware of each other's experience.
Maybe aware is the right word, but I haven't seen what you see
that people actually have experience in both sides as
well. You haven't seen those people?
No, a few people, but I wouldn't say that as kind of a general
remark. Actually, I have a friend who is
a very good developer and he has experience with design and I saw
his design. So that's quite easy designs.
Yeah, I was like wow, that's quite nice.
And then I have also a friend who has both like, but there are
some people I can on my team. We have my colleague of mine,
Allah, and he's working amazing. He does both.
Yeah, he's creative coder. So he's doing it on more like a
three dresser job stuff. Everything he touches, it just
becomes like magic. That's awesome.
Yeah. So you kind of like, look at
this and it's like, damn it, like that's the gut.
That's cool. Yeah, there are a few people
that. I also look up to and I'm like,
they're legit. I love working with them cuz you
can learn a lot. Yeah, but yeah, that level is
admirable. I feel like, but I do no even
like colleagues of mine that I'm thinking that quite a few of
them have experience and they are somewhere in between.
They're trying to make the bridges.
So I was working with the front end developer in the company
where I remember right now in my biquity who when I came he was a
designer and because he wanted to be a creative developer so he
wanted to learn about design. So he said to a creative team
like hey I'm a developer but I wanna learn can I join?
And he joined the team as a junior designer and then he was
like he was quite good. I haven't seen much of his work
so I cannot say but he was quite good and then he's like hey like
I have kids I have to go back because I have I think he has
right now tickets so junior developers, junior designer
salary and senior frontend developer of course different so
he came back but his idea is still was there.
He was always trying to find this way to be in between and
either build the bridges so we can cover it better or he will
like wanted to be something like that combines the boss and now
he is going to another company that's he is actually going to
be like that sweet spot. Yeah, good for him.
Yeah, I like that. Well, people are like, I don't
want to choose. I want both.
And they put in the work. Cuz I feel like it is a lot of
work to be able to do both at a high level, right at the level
that you would want to do it, that's true.
But if they make it happen, I think that's really cool.
Yeah, it's tremendous work because either within UX, UI if
you don't take product design, if you just take UX, UI, a lot
of people are either stronger in UX or UI.
There are not that many people that are strong in both.
And then product design adds extra layer right?
But if you want to be a developer and designer, so it's
probably one way or another have to know UX and mostly focused on
UI most likely. But you have to also know UX if
you wanna do very usable products and then you wanna do
the coding. Front end grows so fast.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
If you're out of it, you have to be like, OK, what do I need to
catch up on? Like when I was on this project
like for six months, I was like, I missed so much.
I haven't been there for a few years, two years, like bam, like
everything changed. Like I don't remember anything.
So and then if you want to be on top of it or at least in the
middle, right? It's a lot of work.
You have to study and design. Moves fast in front and moves
fast crazy. Yeah, you have to be able to
catch up on both ends. That's hard, yeah.
It requires a lot of attention, I feel like.
Yeah, and also free time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Time investment.
It's the biggest part then, Yep. Talk to me about kind of that
phase when you were thinking about mentoring other people and
then the step that you actually took to do that.
When was that? It was four years ago.
Yeah. And when I moved here, I was
struggling with getting a job here because market for me was
here. Different from my experience in
Russia, where I was living and working.
Yeah. And it's completely different.
So I was like, what is happening?
Why my methods that work there don't work here.
So. And I needed help.
Yeah. And I was taking at that moment,
the course about the design New Xu.
I don't know. I think it was research.
Yeah, I think it was about research.
And there was a program attached to this course, like you can
find a mentor. And I was like like this person
looks nice, he has a lot of experience, he can help me and
he helped me to get a job, OK And this kind of like it was my
first experience with mentor. I never had mentors before, but
I was so grateful because by myself, I would still manage it,
but it would take much more time and much more like nerves if my,
like, a nurse would be destroyed by yourself.
Yeah. And my mental health.
But he helped me because it's always right easy from that side
to give feedback. You not always see what you do,
right? It's the same as you don't see
how you walk. So another person can tell you
what you do and how you can do it better.
And he helped me a lot. And I was like, I want to pay
back. Like it was my first thought
because it's not just me, it wasn't just me.
Like a lot of people move or they just need help with
something that I have experience with.
And I decided like, I'm just gonna do it in.
Fact was immediate kind of. I want to give back.
Yeah. Like he helped me and I got a
job was like, I want, I want to do it too.
I want to. I know this feeling of
frustration. I know how it feels when you're,
like, trying to apply the job and you don't get it, not
because you're bad, but you just don't know the dance.
You need more information. Yeah, it's like a dance that you
need to dance. It's like a ritual.
And if you don't know this, you just don't get it.
And you feel like something is wrong with you.
But it's not. And it was very frustrating.
And for me, it was very stressful, like, what am I doing
wrong? And he showed me, like, how I
should do it, what I should, like, help prepare for the
interviews, What different types of interviews exist?
Like what shall I focus more on the technical part of it?
And I was very grateful. And I was like, hey, I wanna do
it too. So I started mentoring on the
same course. I know you, Demi.
Then I got into the boot camp. There's a boot camp called
Design Lab. I think they're based in the US,
but they have across with the global people.
Yeah, they helped me also quite a few, quite a lot, because they
had a course and you manage people along the course.
But it was not the same, right? Those people are trying to learn
their first job, they're learning in the boot camp how to
become designer. But it's first, it was paid, it
was nice, but it's different type of relationship you have.
And 2nd is that sometimes you're not a match with this person and
it's also okay. You would just speak
differently. You have different interests in
the way of mentoring. Also should match with the type
of mentee. So it was not exactly that.
So and then I found the, I think I was doing mentoring some
people because other people were referring them to me.
Yeah. And then ATP appeared, I think
it was about two years, maybe a year and a half ago where I
mentoring now and I was like that's perfect.
I wanted to have a platform like this, but it's also a lot of
investments to build. Yeah.
And I was looking for it. There was nothing and the ATP
appeared perfect. So I started mentoring there and
that was it. So there are people that come to
you in it's either just request like one request or it's a long
term that you help them to land this job.
Yeah. And it's very satisfying to see
people like your investments, your time and effort that it
evolves and the person gets better and get their first job
and happy they are. Just for me, there was a lot
like those just seeing those people happy and this they send
to you this emails or something that's like, hey, like thanks a
lot to you. And it was like I'm just crying
because it was so touchy. And then that was that was it
basically. And that I still do.
It's like it's just like a voluntary kind of thing.
Wow. Makes me.
From four years ago. You've been doing that kind of
continuously. Yeah.
Wow. Yeah, I did a break right now.
And I was telling you before about that like for a few months
because I have a lot of mentees and I feel I could scale it
somehow because at some moment now I have like on a regular
basis five people a week and like I could do more.
So I'm looking for the ways how I could instead of maybe telling
them sending some materials straight away or something like
that. So I was thinking how I could
scale it better and also take a break to reflect on it a little
bit. But before that I never took any
break. Yeah.
What is kind of within these interactions?
For you, the fulfillment really comes from helping them now.
Yeah, yeah. And then also you've had people
that are kind of a one off interaction and people that are
more continuous. Yeah.
When it comes to the people that are more continuous, like what
is usually the period that they stay with you for, Usually you
have a goal, right? Yeah.
So oftentimes the goal is to get a job or to change job.
There are less people that are struggling within the company.
They are, and they're also few, but mostly they have someone to
help them out in a spot. But I also had a long term those
are kind of like indefinite. So you just meet with them and
give feedback on the work that they have just because they
don't have someone to coach them on the spot.
But others, it's like, I think the Max maybe was six months as
the maximum average, maybe three or four months until they learn
the job. And it was before all of this
like horrible crisis that started last year.
Now I think the time is a bit bigger, but that was the
average. And I think the maybe 50% or so
were just coming like, hey, I need help right now, Spot, can
you help me give feedback with this challenge I have?
And they could leave. Yeah.
And they could come like in a few months after.
So those are kind of like I don't consider them long term,
but they come back. Exactly, yeah.
Did you see any, like, commonalities between the
challenges that people had? For sure?
Yeah, yeah, quite a lot. What were those?
It depends on the problem, right?
There are a lot of similarities. It also depends on the role,
because I had quite a few people.
So it's a lot of data, yeah. But for the beginning designers,
I feel that you can see by based on their portfolio that they
have no experience. And that's OK, right?
Because again, I started with a folder.
Start with no experience. Yeah.
Like and I I know it's just the market where it is right now.
It's very harsh. Yeah.
But I feel like people could be the lots like it's end thinking
and they have like all the stepbystep design thinking and
they kind of fit in the work that they've done into this.
Yeah, sometimes post, so sometimes they follow it and
they like kind of properly didn't thinking sometimes they
fit it in. That's right.
Actively, yeah. In reality this hand thinking
doesn't happen that often like it's a it's a it's a mess in a
way. There is, there is a logic,
there is kind of like an arrow but it's like back for for back
like talking to this like so and based on that I straight away
can see that they don't have experience and that's OK.
But I wish to hear story more than to see the process Okay.
And that's all I usually tell. Tell me about how you were
working. Tell me about you were thinking
behind about that. I know.
I'm thinking I'm a designer too. Like I know how it works.
You don't need to tell me about that.
What I want to know is what you were thinking about and how you
were solving. It's like what challenges you
faced, who you talked to about that, what trade-offs you did
because one way or another they had it even if they didn't have
experience. And that shows their like that
they reflected on this and they show that they understood what
they were doing. Yeah so and that was like a
common pattern. And then also like storytelling
I think is the key. For many people it's very
important to tell a story and not just to do it as the ways
others do. Because also in this mass of
portfolios, I'm a bit sidetracking.
But in this massive, like in the in the big amount of portfolio
that I saw, it ends up the same as everyone else, right?
If you see all doesn't thinking, isn't thinking?
Isn't thinking they all the same?
How do you stand out? Yeah.
So. And I don't, it doesn't tell me
who you are. It doesn't tell me what you good
at, because they all like it's hard for me to scan to
understand who you are in there. Yeah.
So yeah. Interesting the the question you
ask when it comes to don't just don't just show me the work,
right, but show me the thought process.
I feel like that, at least for me, in an interview, would be
the most important. I don't really.
I mean, I care about the work that you do, Sure.
But if that's good, then we're going to talk about okay, what
decisions did you make and why? And I might not even have an
opinion. I might not really care.
I just want to understand your thought process because based on
that I'm going to form an opinion probably.
Yeah, yeah. And I feel like a lot of
interviews nowadays are not. I mean, some are about the work.
And especially I mean in development lead code exercises.
Those are just about the work. But then still, they're mostly
about thought process as well. Mm HM yeah, that's true, right?
Because after all, I understand that junior designers don't have
experience and that's okay. Yeah, but what they need to have
is right mindset. And it's hard to understand what
mindset they have based on this portfolio.
It tells me just that they don't stand thinking.
But that's okay. That's basic knowledge.
And again, in reality you have to be, I think in a very big
company when everything is very line of structure that you
follow step by step. Yeah, amazing.
Neither in product company where I worked before, nor in agency
where I am right now in working different products.
It's never that straightforward. No, it's not that linear.
That's just not how it works. So, and that means that I want
to know your agility, how you adapt, who you talk to, What do
you do? Do you go and ask for help?
Do you try to solve by yourself? Do you try to invent a bicycle
Or you Google, right. So those things are important.
Yeah, I mean, when you were describing really helping
people, right? And even people that you've
helped coming back later or having either one off or a
really long relationship with them, what qualities makes like
a good mentor? And I'm wondering this because
I'm thinking about doing mentorship myself.
The hard part is I feel like I'm spread thin.
So when I wanna do that, I wanna put my full effort in there.
And I can't do that when I'm spread too thin.
Makes sense. But I always wonder, and I think
I'm gonna do that in the future, hopefully near future.
But in any case, what makes a real good mentor in that way?
Can anyone be a mentor? That's in the way?
I think it's a mindset. The thing I would say is you
have to try. You just need to try and see.
Because a lot of people I knew, and I know they said I don't
want to be a mentor and they tried and they said no, it's
actually not for me. Yeah.
And a lot of those people said I don't want to be a mentor.
And they tried it. And it's actually so cool.
Yeah. So it very much depends on you.
Like, if you enjoy that. So if you're really helping, I
would recommend you try and see. Sometimes people say that you
need to have specific knowledge to be a mentor, not really okay.
So the type of mentorship, what type of mentorship and what type
of mentor you are, it develops after some time.
Yeah. And that's what I was also
saying. Sometimes you're not a match.
It can be that the person that you are talking to is not a
match with you. So it's okay.
It's like French, right? Not you can't be friends with
everyone. So I would recommend you to try
and see how it feels and then just listen and to reflect.
Sometimes I know the mentors. There are mentors that are more
talking from their experience. I sometimes also do that.
Sometimes there are mentors that are more like a therapist.
They ask more questions, you know, like I know what do you
feel about that? I feel like, how would you do?
That might be me. So and and both of them
perfectly valid. You just find your like, target
audience. You find those people that are
much perfectly and you help them.
Yeah, the most. What type of mentor would you
describe yourself as to be? I would say I'm in the middle.
I like telling about things that the people struggle in like a
metaphor, okay. So I like explaining things.
I guess I have like a lot of theoretical knowledge, I've told
myself. So I like explaining like, hey,
they come to a challenge and this is that, and explaining and
structuring and giving them and like aha kind of moment.
So you have to kind of like talk and you have to have experience
in a way. But I also like challenging
sometimes people and asking questions.
Yeah. But sometimes it sounds a bit.
Are you poking me right now? It's.
Like confronting, Yeah and what you did to this, but hey, I came
to you for help. So it's a balancing for me in
between. And also I have different tools.
I would say right now that I've developed that I I take
depending on the problem. Sometimes I do the code
designing sessions. If I see that the problem is in
the visual design and they come to me and say, hey I did this,
can you give me any feedback? And I was like I understand that
there are too many things that needs to be fixed.
So instead I was like can you show me follow me, I go there
and we design it together or I design it and I explain step by
step why. So like, hey, I take your design
and this for example. And a lot of people said that
they love it because they can see behind the scene, right?
Yeah, it's. Like pair programming?
Yeah. So.
And I do that often. If there's for example UI right,
the visual design. But it doesn't work with
everything right. And I had this kind of like
tools that I've developed and then just take them.
Yeah, I love the kind of pair programming sessions, the Co
creation. Yeah, I feel like that's so
important because. You're not just showing them the
end result, right? I feel like if you're starting
out from scratch and you're seeing all these beautiful end
results, then it's pretty daunting, right?
Because you're from scratch, you wanna get there and you don't
see how to get there, right? That's true.
And it feels like people just get it.
Yeah, but there's a whole thought process.
There's a whole way of working that's very much structured and
experienced, based and even individualized, and the only way
to get that. Is by doing that together,
right? Seeing that behind the scenes,
asking the questions on the spot, why this not that in the
moment? I feel like that's the biggest
kind of learning you can get is by doing it together.
That's true. Yeah.
I also like with the visual design, I feel it's easier.
I think it's a controversial opinion.
Some people don't think this way, but I think with UI it's
easier to learn than UX because of copying.
That's what I did long time ago. Yeah, when Photoshop was there,
there were a lot of tutorials, templates, tutorials that you
have to follow and then you have this outcome.
Yeah, and I love tutorials. I still do tutorials and then
tutorials. Like because you follow the
person who does it, You have this kind of pair programming
feeling. Yeah.
But also coping. You take a screenshot of the
website that you love and you like put capacity like 50%.
So you kind of like recreate it. And yes, and you create a font
in this position. So you see the grid, you have to
make a grid. You see the icons, the choice of
imagery, the grid that the imagery and icons are aligned
and and all of that stuff. And then you have it's almost
like a tutorial, you have this patterns so and more you do
that, more those patterns you have.
So next time when you need to create visual design then you
just pick from all of those that you've done right, all those
parts of website you copied or tutorials you took and you just
align them right. So if you don't do that often,
you are limited with only those things.
Just looking at nice designs don't help because you don't
really analyze it and more you copy it.
The more tools you have cooler design becomes and you start
understanding the composition and typography and the colors.
So that's the best way. It seems like a really smart
kind of way of working or way of getting experience and copying.
Mind sound bad in that way, but it's really learning from what
other people have done, right? That's it.
Yeah. But you don't publish it, right?
Like, you can say, like, hey, I was learning from it.
Yeah. But it's like, it's not like a
break copyright. It's a learning opportunity for
you. Yeah.
It would be the same as if I would see like an application
I'd be like. I wonder how I would build that.
And if I actually take the step and try and build it.
I don't know at all what goes in behind the scenes, so I wouldn't
really have an idea, but I can see functionality wise what they
have and I would try and recreate it.
Yep. Yeah, like a replicated.
Yeah. Like, I think it's one of the
things that you develop on your developer and like one of the
first programs is calculator, right?
Yeah, or like game or something. Simple, yeah.
Link shortener. Everyone.
Everyone makes their own link shorteners.
Yeah, exactly. It's also like in tutorial,
right? You saw it many times.
You just replicate it and then, uh, huh.
Yeah, Yeah. And then you get that.
Listen. But I feel like if I'm following
a tutorial like on a certain application it.
It doesn't really retain as much.
Like I follow the steps and I'm like, OK, I understand it, and
then tutorial's done and half the end result.
And then if I would close everything down and try and do
it again, I think that's where the value is.
But then I don't know if I would be able to do it.
Most of the times I'd be like, no, I'll just look it up and I
know it's there. I know where I can find it.
I wouldn't know how to do it myself basically.
Yeah, but you mean why does it not retain like I?
Don't know. I think it's because I'm.
I'm literally following someone's steps.
Yeah, more so. And then it's not as much about
the thought patterns because they've already thought about
it. They're just giving me OK, this
is, these are the steps. Rather than talking about OK, we
could do this or this. I feel like if I have a dialogue
and there's options, then I can understand the tradeoffs and the
options and it retains more than being like, OK, this is the end
result and this is kind of the tutorials usually OK, step one
to 10, we're gonna go through all the steps basically.
That's different for me. I think maybe it's like also in
the maturity level, because I remember.
Especially Photoshop, right? Help me in the beginning at
least to remember for the tool where the tools are located.
Absolutely. And what are the?
Yeah, because there's so many. Yeah.
All this filters like drop downs
and then there are drop downs and there are drop downs hidden.
Yeah. And then you like, remember it?
Like here it is. Because I already used it, yeah.
I get that. What I was still wondering is
probably two thoughts right in this kind of four year span of.
Being mentored, do you feel like you're still improving?
Cuz I'm thinking about myself When it comes to experience, in
the beginning, you learn a lot, right?
And then it kind of it kind of is lessened out through time.
I'm wondering if you're still learning things about yourself
or things that you can do better or are improving.
Like, what's your feeling about that?
I think I still do because there are a tremendous amount of
different people. Yeah.
And just meeting those people and understanding how it works
and what's their thinking process.
You have to adapt every time to a different person.
Like there are mentorship that you have one to mentors and
repeatedly just meet with them once a week.
In the case with ADP, you never know who's gonna be there.
You have to on a spot. Yes.
You have to adjust to know what the questions to ask.
Often times the problem they come is not the problem, it's
the problem, it's something else.
And then you have to understand it and the right ask the right
questions so you understand what they actually problem and they
understand that it's not the problem they're trying to solve,
it's something else. And this thing like that, you
have to listen. There are always these different
people, different accents, different languages, different
experiences, different problems, and you never know what's going
to happen. That's quite exciting.
Yeah. And I always feel like I improve
it like, hey, like. And because I again over
thinking I think about that. Could I do something better?
Could I listen more? Maybe could I ask maybe more
questions and maybe I took over too much or maybe we didn't
click. What could I do better?
And next time I try to do it, yeah.
And also write it again also for myself.
Some things that helped. And I have this already
developed another framework for myself.
When I mentor, I called it past, present, future.
Again, maybe it exists somewhere else.
I just haven't read about it yet.
Like when the person comes to me and they're saying like, hey,
this is who I am, this is my problem, I first collected all
information about their past, what they've done, what they
experience, where they've been, what they've studied, is it
university related to tech or what they're trying to get.
Like everything about the past, send about the present.
Where are you right now? You have some limitations with
the visa, maybe because we're Netherlands, a lot of expats,
right? Or they have to have a job as AP
because they need to have money. They have like a lot of free
time or they have a full time job, so then they have free time
at all. So I'm trying to understand
where they are right now and then we're trying to build where
they wanna be based on those two things.
Yeah, a lot of people like I have, they don't have degrees in
design or tech. They are like architectures or
physicists. And then based on that you have
to adjust, right? You have to create like a second
game. You need to create this strategy
unique for them, so they can achieve this goal in the manner
and in time do they have it and they have kids or stuff and
that's quite always exciting. And then you have to follow up
on that. A lot of people drop.
Like, not a lot, but some people drop.
I can imagine because that the priorities change or something,
but that was very exciting, like follow up with those people who
follow this process. Yeah, and getting the goal and
then achieving this, that's just very nice.
But this whole process that I have, that's every time
different. I don't have to the same people.
Yeah, that's. I didn't think about that.
I felt like, OK, it would kind of be similar in that way, but
because of exactly the things that you laid out, the
background is different, the situation is different, the
context is different. What they want in goals
sometimes might be the same, could be different as well.
And then it's. Yeah, it's based on the
individual. And each individual is different
in their similarities, but they're all different, right?
Yeah. All the starting points is
always different, right. Sometimes we feel like we when
we compare ourselves with others.
Yeah, like, I'm the same age as this person, but he's already
better than me or doing whatever I want to do.
The starting point was different, right?
Maybe they were born in different country or they had
like a partner to support them. They didn't have financial
issues. We forget about all of those
things. Yeah, like and I always thought
like that you compare each other as like a line, you know, like
our path, like as a line. So here, OK, school, university.
And then I compare myself. I am this age, this age I'm
supposed to be here because he's here.
Exactly. He's here.
But it's actually like this. And sometimes we cross and we're
in the same position, but we're different age in different
paths, right. And then sometimes goes away.
So it's kind of like this whole mentoring experience helps
understand that there is no the same people you cannot compare.
It just doesn't work. Yeah, you can only compare to
yourself in the past. That's interesting.
When you cross, it's probably when you meet each other, when
you know about each other. And that's when you compare, you
compare at the cross, yeah, but the whole history of their.
You don't take into consideration at all.
Yeah, I like that metaphor. And sometimes you can even go
along because I find it nice experience to have a buddy to do
something together. Yeah, when you learn something
together, it's much more fun. You have more motivation.
So I have friends right now where we meet once a week and we
write together because I want to learn to write.
She wants to do more, write articles.
And then we have different paths, right?
We have different context. We are in different places, but
now we'll align in this thing together, yeah, And then we go
to different directions, maybe more across again the path.
Yeah, that's very nice. I feel like it's having those
conversations and meeting those individuals has probably made
you like very flexible in the way that you interact or
accommodate or just help in that way.
Like, has it translated into your career or even your
personal life as well, Kind of the skills that you cultivate?
Yeah, I I think it changed me a lot overall.
I I don't judge much. Like, like I still sometimes
catch myself on judging, but it's like, hey, don't, don't.
It's sometimes like a lack of confidence or something.
So I don't judge anymore people because just like, it doesn't
bring any value at all. So I'm more open.
I understand that I cannot use one tool to every every problem,
right? And every person the same.
I talk to different people in different ways.
That helped me to deliver the message.
Yeah, because some people are more gentle and I know that they
are sensitive to the feedback. So I need to find a voice and a
way to communicate it to them so they understand I cannot be like
a harsh hammer. Exactly.
It's not going to work, yes, right.
You need to be respectful to the way they are and communicate it
to the way that you can understand.
And then I just try to understand the person that I
listen a lot in the beginning and then when the standard, I
also sometimes ask like hey like what is the way feedback you
prefer. I know there are some direct
people I I'm by default tend to be direct but I adjust so like
what the way of feedback you want to have and I adjust it and
I like kind of like accommodate different types of personalities
and I think that helps me a lot. Yeah.
In French and France and work. Yeah.
Do you this is? Sometimes the thought I have
because I try my best to not judge, I try my best to
accommodate for other people. And I see sometimes when people
don't do that and that irks me. When and I see people judging or
when I see people like clashing because of their personalities
and they don't want to adjust to the other people either in work
or even in personal life. And I'm like, man, if you were a
bit more aware or if you had kind of a more diverse
experience in that way, you would see what you're doing is.
Is not really productive in this end goal that we have.
Yep. Yeah, I know the feeling.
But you can also look at this. I look at this from angle.
Maybe they are not where they are right now.
They may be in the future. Like if I remember myself 5-10
years ago, I was different. Like I was quite dumb like 20 in
the beginning for. 20 was there. I was dumb.
I was judgmental. I was like I was very shy.
I couldn't talk to people like, and then when I meet a person
and it's like, why are you so shy?
I just need to go do it. I was like, no, you were like
this, right? So it's different paths and
they're in a different step of it.
And that's okay like the way they are right now here.
Interesting. Yeah, so you just let it go.
Yeah, yeah. There is no need to change it if
they don't ask you to help with it.
Yeah, right. And then there's no need to
trigger. To be triggered by that you can
be and you can catch it like hey, I'm be triggered.
But there's no reason to be. Yeah, the other way you are and
that's okay. I think that's probably my
problem because I think it would be helpful if that behavior
changes, but I shouldn't be the one to judge that.
Your solution focused? Yeah, exactly.
I feel like that's my problem. It couldn't be.
Yeah, it's like in relationship when your girlfriend tells you
something. Do you?
Straight away tell her a solution, you know, or you're
trying to listen to her and just let her vent.
You know, there's like a common challenge and relationship.
I was also listening about it in podcast.
There are some people that are trying to straight away to give
a solution and they're just people like, yeah, of course
that's OK yeah, that's fine. That's feedback I've gotten.
It is what it is. I don't want a solution, I just
want you to listen right. Yeah.
Like it is just yeah. Like, there is none.
Everybody's like doing their own best, like in their own way,
with the energy and resources they've got in this moment.
Very philosophical. Yeah, Yeah.
On that note, I've really enjoyed this conversation.
I must say, this is a lot of fun.
What's this kind of what you expect?
What you expected as well? I didn't know.
I tried to not to expect anything because if you ever
think it was like you have expectations and then they may
not meet. I know all my overthinking
minds. Like, I will let it go.
Yeah, whatever happens, happens. Yep.
And if I say something weird, that's OK You didn't say
anything. Anything weird?
All right. I didn't even curse no
whatsoever. So yeah, I'm going to be fine.
Thank you for coming on. Whatever it's going to be.
Yeah. So I just want to enjoy the
process. And I did.
Thank you. This was a lot of fun and I'm
going to round it off here. I'm going to put all Iona
socials in the descrition below, reach out to her, let her know
you came from our show. And with that being said, thank
you for listening. We'll see you in the next one.