Hi everyone, my name is Patrick akhil and for today's episode,
we covered the cloud security podcast.
Yes, I have my friend zone from the cloud security podcast.
They were in Amsterdam and we managed to make this happen in
person at the very last minute, we cover how they started and
how they've been working together while being married
with this whole podcast thing, High highs, and low lows and we
cover obviously a little bit of cloud Security in between there
as well. She'll be bhattacharjee.
And I she's Rajan. I'll put the socials of both of
them in the description below. Check them out.
And without being said, enjoy the episode.
That's where the headphones make sense.
Absolutely. You can hear yourself going off
the mic. Yeah, that way I'm yeah.
So I guess to what you were saying Tuesday, Wednesday, we
have the conference and Wednesday evening.
We have a meter with the tech fashion M, okay?
So we didn't, I was just telling your colleague earlier that the
intent was not to kind of like what you're doing over here with
a podcast. Not to be too technical.
Yeah, so we have to, I guess to talks there but the intent is to
come in at, in your best tech fashion gear.
It could be Our conference swag, it could be your favorite
keyboard. It could be something that you
got from a conference. So just some bring something
which is fun. Yeah.
To the the M basically just so it doesn't make it like a
boring. You go.
You come in or a shoe shop at Riga talking and after that
basically go for drinks and just leave, we didn't want to do
that. So that's why we changed it to.
Let's. Do a tech fashion meet up like a
DJ in the end as well. Yeah.
So I'm really, really looking forward to it.
Yes, man, sounds awesome. I like that, it's not.
Not Just One Direction because a lot of conferences are like II
speak for 50 minutes. We have.
This is my thing. Yeah, after that, you sometimes
have a questions or sometimes, not even but as the audience
like, I mean, sure it's informative.
But yeah, it's way better if I can engage, right?
Of course, of course. Yes, those are the best ones in
the most memorable ones, purpose then.
Yeah, I think, at least you walk out of it, thinking, you found
some value. Exactly.
Yeah. That's, I mean, if you're
hosting that whole thing, that's the best feeling, right?
Yeah. If you give people value in that
way. Oh my God.
Yeah, I think. Funny.
I don't know if people realize the long-term value of the
giving value part. Yeah, you know, I think like,
what we started the conversation with the earlier when we met he
outside the whole knowledge sharing piece.
Yeah. How many people actually freely?
Give their knowledge and yeah it just built.
I think we of selling this to your colleague earlier.
That's the we start this thing called.
This is My Cloud security architecture, or as a thing, and
I know I'm going to get a lot of hate from our Consulting
companies because what we shared their is what a lot of
Consulting. Um, please Archie charge people
for and but we're just giving it out there for free because I'm
like there is no point in Tiding, this information and it
because in my mind to what you were saying, if you share your
knowledge, it doesn't make you any Dumber.
It just means that you get another perspective from another
person, but then also at the fact that it's at the same time
you learn that. You elevate.
One More Level because you've heard enough prospective to
know. Oh, that respect.
It was amazing. Yeah, she'll this perspective is
amazing. And now I have this third
dimensional You have to say map same thing that I've been
thinking about single dimensionally now I have two
more opinions that I. Yeah, that was interesting.
I should try talk more about that.
I kind of align more with what Patrick said or what.
What shall be said. Yeah.
Have some her personal knowledge sharing is amazing.
I think that it's very underestimated, but I wish more
people did that. I agree.
I think knowledge is the thing
that gets sharper and sharper, the more you share it.
Mmm, I'd it's like honing, honing your skills, honing any
skills. Yeah.
By sharing your knowledge. First of all, you get better
because Of it. You get better at explaining it,
the people share their perspective, it changes your
perspective and it holds it, right?
And then all of a sudden it becomes memorable.
Yeah. Yeah.
The people and there's also challenging as well because you
almost are being one durable because when you put yourself
out there, you shared what, you know?
Yeah, now you're like, okay, I can't really say that I have to
learn something more better to be better than the previous
version of myself. Like, what else can I do to make
myself even better than what I was yesterday?
Yeah, like it kind of made me think that's kind of another
level of challenge. Judging yourself as well if
you're looking for that kind of thing as well.
Yeah absolutely. And it is vulnerable in that
people love giving critique. They don't love sharing that
knowledge the same way you do, right?
Yeah. All right, one, that way.
Oh that game, all three of us putting ourselves out there and
Mentos podcast goes live or goes on YouTube.
Whatever whatever we might end up saying over here that gets
goes on to the episode. Some of it may become
controversial even though we don't intend it to be
controversial because all of us just want to have a good life.
Yeah. Drink coffee have some food.
Enjoy a normal life. But clearly, I'm a sub say
something right now or she might hear something right now, even
though unintentionally might offend someone hopefully not.
Why, it's one of those things like, but I didn't mean it that
way and it's the moment is gone. Yeah, but I believe if you don't
put yourself out there it's not fair because then you're not
allowing yourself to grow. You're not allowing others to
grow and in that hundred two hundred people.
Like at the moment, our podcast gets about what 10,000 plus
episodes. Also 10,000 plus viewership but
episode And great. That's a lot of people who talk
about the fact that, oh, you know, this is not common.
So a lot of people who are experienced, look at that and
go, oh, this is pretty good. Like, I don't have to tell
anyone. I can just direct them over
there. Yeah.
Whereas the other half is also people, who just don't like the
popularity with it just like, well, I had the same idea like I
think I remember I got this message.
One say that oh, I was well, start the podcast the same name,
but you took it am I how am I supposed to know that exactly.
What about sorry. Yeah.
Do you want to say sorry or like wait, where is this coming from?
And it's like, things like that. So some people are just like and
I don't, I don't have any negative feeling for that person
because that, yeah, but I definitely feel that they're
just like mix of people and in a way that energizes me too as
well. No, I'm helping that many
people. Every time I say something share
something information out which is valuable.
Yeah, it's gonna share some about, there's going to be some
negative feedback coming back and I'm okay with it.
Yeah, because I know I don't intend to hurt anyone or I don't
intend to be, Offensive to anyone.
Yeah, I think that's, that's a really good mindset to have,
right? I think, if people think of
okay, but I took that name, but you took it like that's such a
weird thought. Oh, my God, that's awesome.
I had a great idea. Someone else already ran a.
That's right. I can think of another one,
right? Or I can do better.
I can improve people, usually love pointing fingers.
I don't really look at a mirror. Look at themselves.
Like it's such a weird mindset to have.
Yeah, yeah, maybe it's the way they were brought up.
Maybe it's, I don't think it's in their nature.
I think it's due to circumstances.
Oz, of course here. But I've just never never had
those same thoughts, like, I'm genuinely happy for the people
are doing good, very light because then it's possible for
me to also do good. I look up to people, I can be
like, I can also do that. It just takes time and effort.
And once you realize that, not all it does is take time and
effort, and it might take you less time and effort might take
you less time and effort than it does me.
Yeah, it doesn't mean I shouldn't start.
I just means I have to get started.
Yeah. Except I never even that itself
is so hard. Yeah.
Like just starting something. It's we talked about this quite
often about starting the podcast.
We talked to a lot of people who are starting the podcast, some
do really well, like, put the effort and just go all the way.
Yeah. Some do the pot fade thing as
well and you feel kind of bad but you also understand because
it's life gets in the way as well.
Yeah. So sort of fair to judge
everyone who's basically going through a port Fade to kind of
feel. Oh no.
I wish they had more but I mean, life is difficult in general
outside of all the podcasting and knowledge sharing.
Yeah. It's Not like a lot easy to just
like day-to-day. You want to be happy 24/7.
But happiness, m is run by some of the parameters, which
probably are not the same in a podcast game.
It's exhausting, like, doing something more personal or more
private and that's completely fine as well.
Yeah, it's not for everyone ride.
Like I think it's good that people try doing podcasting of
they think they want to, but if it's not for you, that's fine.
You know. You do you give it a go like
everything else in life. I'm sure we've all picked
Hobbies when we go. Oh, that would be cool.
But then you kind of go. Oh actually, it's not for me.
So A lot of people think they want to start one, but if
they've done say ten episodes and they're like, no, this is
not for me, that's fine as well. I think it's important to at
least give it a go. I think that's what we get.
A lot of people asking about all.
How do you start a podcast or should I start one?
I always say. Like, look, if you've thought
about it, definitely start one. Give it a go, and if you don't
like it, you don't like it. It might grow into.
Like I think when we were starting on this journey,
someone had said something quite interesting.
They said that, it'll, it'll never fail.
It'll just become something else.
Yeah, so it's you know, it may Take you in a different
direction. You might find.
There's a part of the process that you really enjoy, and you
take that on board. So yeah, I think it's important
to start and give everything in life, we're going.
Yeah. You never know what it might
become. I really like that.
It will never fail. It'll just turn into something
else as experience is experience, right?
Yeah. If you have those thoughts and
you never do it, then you're always going to wonder what if
right? And if you do it and it's not
for you. You're like I know now.
It is not for me. I appreciate other people doing
it and running with it. Yeah, that's awesome.
It's not for me, I'm going to try other things, right?
Because we don't, we don't just take one path and it's very
linear goes all over the place and it circles back and you end
up where you end up because of the choices in the experience
you have. Yeah.
And that's your journey. Yes, journey is unique.
Doesn't matter when you end up or where you are now, you can
evolve and it will ya. Another funny I think because
just be the hoodie she's wearing it's got a quite interesting
code on, it says success. But this all about making
sacrifices. Yeah.
Well there is one about the Act that if you don't sacrifice for
the things that you want, things that you want, becomes you
sacrifice, okay? So for me it was like
interesting that to your point about trying different things,
come out David, don't you doing in your path?
Yeah, I want to bring to the inspiration part of it as well.
When say, people see you do the podcast or they see us doing the
podcasting. If you are able to inspire
someone, there is nothing more positive than that.
Like I think I just cannot imagine anything more positive
than that. Yeah.
You don't have to sacrifice a lot of things.
But sometimes you do make very many sacrifices here in there.
But being able to inspire a lot of people and share at else at a
scale. I think this was not available
for our parents generation. Yeah.
But we have this guy I imagine like someone would have to be
like I don't know Pope I guess to have that kind of a you know
that kind of a reach that you just say one word and hello and
suddenly everyone around the world is like oh my God Pope
said hello right now we're sharing information or shame
knowledge over here and how we don't know how many people would
end up with three to the two, listening to this in the entire
lifetime of this. Episode being online.
Yeah and how many people it may touch this, what random
conversation but it's very inspiring.
People may Inspire someone to start a podcast and reach out to
you lie to her. Hey I heard that episode was
great. Would love to talk to you more
about it like things like that. Wouldn't that were not even
possible before so very inspiring.
Yeah we live in a lovely age. I feel very lucky that it's easy
to depart information. Like maybe 20 years ago, you
couldn't start a podcast. You'll probably have to you
know, rent a big Studio like now.
All you need is like you know, a Mike You know, you've got your
laptop, most people get like, we started very MVP like just for
the phone and I think your laptop at that was our initial
podcast setup, love that and everyone can do that.
And that's the real. Brilliant thing that you don't
have to invest a lot that comes with time but you know you can
get started really and that we live in an age where that's
possible where you know, technology wasn't there, you
know, 20, 30 years ago that he could just, you know, start
every dream that he have become a YouTuber like, you know,
you're on the television all the time and all you need is just
too. A phone that's really, really
great. That, you know, we do have a lot
of potential at the moment but it's a great story there.
But maybe when we were on our way to New York.
For a, for a conference couple of weeks ago, we came in a fight
called Consciousness, which is an Australian flight and we were
the counter and the lady at the counter was helping us check in
she, once she realized, we are podcasters or YouTuber.
She like it's a lot of money to spend before I can start
podcasting. Like like and she'll be a, I
think you should probably finish his story.
Just really interesting. We told her that, you know,
obviously we told her How we started.
And, you know, a lot of the platform's, you know, if you're
just starting off Archie Free to sign up on as well to
distribute, and we gave her a few things and she actually
wanted to start a podcast about being an air hostess and all the
funny stories that, you know, they like experiences they had
and we said, you know, let's do it.
Yeah. And she took down the notes and
I really hope she does start something.
But you know, just that you know, as we were talking about
that inspiration and sparking energy and knowledge sharing,
and could be just entertainment or whatever.
I think that's something really powerful.
Like, you know, that you can do this.
These days. Yeah.
I like that. I think starting is the hardest
part to a lot of things, right? Yeah.
Because you just see an uphill battle and you're already behind
and even if you admire people and they inspire you and you
feel like you want to be kind of there or even close to that, you
feel like you already so far behind.
Right? Starting his so hard.
Yeah, but from our perspective, the only thing we do is we throw
something in the fold that people take it with them and
they'd be good feeling with and do something with that.
Yeah, we might not ever know what that is, right?
And it's the same with a Conversation.
When someone says, I think it's really hard to start.
Yeah, yeah, this is how you make a small, right?
And then you say, I hope you actually start.
Yeah, they might and that's really cool or they might not
but at least they know that it's an option, please give them
something tangible. Yeah, which is really important.
So I think that's something that we always try to do.
When people ask us, is try to give them a few tangible.
Things like this is where you can host, you know, this is the
cheapest mic which you can buy and this is and give them the
tools. And as you said, if they go with
it, you know, you've done your part, you've given them The
knowledge that you can and then it's up to them and if they
don't that's fine as well. Yeah, awesome.
I wonder, how did you do meet and when did the podcast
actually one of the ball. Start rolling.
So we we've been together. So we're husband and wife which
I think is a great combination for working together alone
together for 14 years. So for a long time and the
podcast is only three and a half years old.
So I think for us definitely I think we started at the right
time in our relationship as well, because I think we've gone
through A lot of maturity I think working together is
completely different than being, you know, husband and wife.
So I think just finding that balance has been really
important. So as she started the podcast
back in 2019, this was like just the beginning of the, you know,
the pandemic. We used to run a lot of deaths
ex-con meetups the Melbourne Australia and when the pandemic
was just starting off, a lot of people were wanting to know more
about Cloud security because love Securities was still is and
back then even more so or something.
Renew. And there wasn't enough
knowledge and she should get approached quite often saying,
oh, can you tell me about this? Tell me about that and we would
think about how do we scale this whole thing.
You know, how do we I mean as much as we love, you know,
having those individual conversations we want everyone
to be able to access this information and we I think you
just started the podcast. You said you know I'm just going
to find some interesting people who are working in the space.
I think this was someone from AWS.
He was happy to have a chat and he started you know, with his
iPhone laptop you know and I think we have one Twitter
somewhere. Actually the picture of our
first set up and he just kicked it off.
And every week, he would just speak to someone casually.
And it just started growing, you know, people were loving it.
They were really grateful for it.
I only came in six months in when it started really growing,
and I was like, okay, you know, look, there's something here.
I come from an operations and Logistics background.
So for me, it's all about, you know, how do we scale this?
How we, how do we actually make this a thing and not just you
hanging out with someone? Yeah, baby.
This is clearly giving people a lot of value.
And so that's when I hopped on board and we tried to like tweak
a few things. So we introduced, we do a
monthly theme on the podcast. Every month.
We have a difference will be an AWS month or kubernetes month.
So we tried that, then we've started obviously in a tweaking
that's involves and I think initially, we definitely had
some feeding issues because we would never work together.
We both had very different day jobs.
So how do we draw the line between being, you know, husband
and wife and business partners? And oh, yeah, I would say, first
year was definitely, You know, we will obviously no disagreeing
like a different things which is really important.
You don't want to like have the same opinions.
Yeah, nothing. Now I feel we are now in a good
Groove where we can, you know, be business partners when we
need to and just obviously be husband and wife and we need to
as well. That is so cool.
So cool. I mean, especially to me, I have
a YouTube channel with my girlfriend as well.
We do like workout stuff as well.
All right, yeah, we're kind of involved in kind of a
professional matter. I'm responsible for editing and
video production, and all that stuff.
And she's responsible, creating workouts in the camera work and
all that stuff. Yeah, she also has a sister
involved so it's kind of a weird dynamic there.
Yeah. But yeah, it gets real
difficult. You have to put up boundaries
you have to say, Okay, this is what I expect of you and you
have to tell me what you expect of me.
That's right. And it's different than a It's
moron. I mean it helps that you're in a
relationship, right? But if something happens in your
kind of work environment yet kind of bleeds through your
website as well. I yeah, but so is what that is,
what I think we had to come up with these rules.
We're at what point every round was not of your business session
in the bedroom. We've had a whole day of work,
and I think I was about to fall asleep and he started talking
about something work-related I'm like, no, this is gonna be just
like you don't switch off and I think that as well as quite
real, when you're running your own thing, you know, you're so
passionate about it, you want to do it all the time but you're in
it for the long run, you know, I say it's a marathon not a race.
So you've got to find Is to preserve yourself.
And I think that really becomes really important when you're
working with someone who's family because it is everywhere
and you can so easily. Have you know, work all the
time. It's important to have that
balance. Yeah.
Really like that because it feels like a race.
You want to get to the end as far as what I don't even know
what the end is, we want to get there as fast as possible,
right? And having that Mantra of, it's
not a, it's not a race, it's a marathon.
Yeah, and we will get there whenever we get there, but we
have to experience life, right? That's right.
I have to go through the gears, go through the motions have fun
with it. It right?
Keep having fun with the other. Ones is Never Gonna Last.
Yeah, and we'll get there. Doesn't matter where it is.
Yeah. Especially if you're doing
something creative. I think it's so important to
keep you do your mind healthy as well because it is, it is such a
creative process, like everything that you do the
conversations that you don't even you have, you've got to
feel inspired and if you're a rundown and, you know, out of
energy just doesn't happen. So, you know, you definitely I
think, especially if you're doing something creative.
It's so important to preserve your energy and you know how
know your markers, you know if like no when okay, I need a
break from something or, you know, things like that.
It's really important to call that out and how have
boundaries. So, I think we've come up with
some as we've gone through. Like, so we've been doing it for
three and a half years, but if you're not perfect yet, but I
think every every six months we get a little bit better, I
think. Yeah, I don't think Perfection
is something you will ever reach.
You'll never be like, okay, we're perfect.
Now, as long as you can and I think it's fine like that.
You have to accept on you, you just keep going home with that.
Yeah. What was your perspective on
that was it was it kind of hard, when she jumped on you?
Well I think I definitely say one of the reasons so initially
it was a great conversation than I just hanging out and just
talking to trust in people like yourself on the other end.
Thank you and when she when she came over and she's looking at
this and going because I don't think I was a business person
before, right? And I never thought I'll start a
business, so whatever, especially in the cybersecurity
media space. That was always like, Oh, I'm a
technical person. That's that's my thing.
Yeah, marketing media is not my thing.
I do my thing bad later on, there's a bit of background.
As well because we were doing men's fashion as well as food
and travel. Like that's why we are so
massive food. Is it starts with ourselves and
although that completely stopped at the else at the beginning of
the pandemic and we were trying to find what's that creative
outlet outlet outside of our work.
That's when this kind of podcasting thing kind of came
around and it was very interesting that in the
beginning. I was just maybe random people
and go because that was me before the pandemic.
Yeah. I'll meet Patrick, I'll go home
and we should go for a coffee together.
Let me talk to you about your lifestyle.
What what gets you up in the morning?
And let's talk about that for a half, an hour and hour that was
most of my days where I love talking about people and just
meeting different people once that completely stop.
Nice got that outfit again with virtual calls and even though
some of the best experience, but at least you still get to meet
another person on the other end of the other end of this ummah
wherever right, when she came on board and we're like, well,
you're getting, I think by the within, the first six months
you're already causing five thousand Impressions, right?
Are we going? Is that Like I don't know.
This is normals happening. Yeah.
Why are people listening to me? Yeah, I'm like this is just
conversation between two people, so just hanging out because to
the point that I started off as virtual coffee with a sheesh,
okay. The intent was like, well it's
going to be me. I'm going to have what your
coffee with Patrick because I can't have actual coffee but I'm
just going to have virtual coffee.
Yeah and I think if people go back enough on the episode to
find out she'll say oh welcome to watch it, go through the shy.
It was not even called not scary podcast.
And now as it has been She came on board.
She was like, well, if you want to make it a business, how do
you get sponsors? Yeah, I like well, once the
would like what I'm talking about, that's what I want.
This shit works and it became a conversation where she kept
having her onboard. Definitely gave me a different
perspective of how this can become something much bigger
like to the point. That now, three and a half years
in. We are into this full time now
for the past few months. Yeah, that would not have
happened. If she hadn't come on board and
kind of gave it some Direction, like the whole monthly theme,
she kind of just set it in five seconds, but that has such A
profound impact on the way people consume in the content
now, people know that, oh, every month, like, for example this
month. We're talking about more than
Security application stack. Yeah, what does that look like?
Talk about API security? We talk about data set data Ops.
We spoke about security monitoring in a modern Cloud
world. What does that look like?
I mean these are all great topics but the older as she was
before she came would have I would have just had that one
episode here another episode in three months later four months
later. So people are even confused like
what am I really? Listening Ashish for right
because after you get to a certain scale, you kind of
realize in the in the beginning. It's fine to just have an open
theme, right? Doesn't matter what you saw
cupboard? Because people are there for you
or just curious about what you're talking about, once you
start hitting a scale of 5000-6000, there's an
expectation. Yeah, that oh, so I'm coming
back to the cloud skinny podcast because this is the kind of
content they produce and I would not have had that if she did not
come in and say we need to go put this like ducks in the row
or however you say it. Yeah.
That kind of helped us, I have a lot more following because after
that lot of people start teaching our oh I'm looking for
to the actual security month or I'm looking for the database
security month looking for Cuban, eighties month or
whatever. My oh, this actually is a thing
and it then we kind of pulls it to like 10,000 11,000.
Am I going? This is insane.
Exactly. And with this is like, what
third year of us running, and I don't know if how many we
there's a very popular cybersecurity podcast called dr.
Diaries okay. Jack retired as a person who
runs it very Anonymous, but we got to be I got to meet him at
Vegas couple months ago and he knew about it.
He came on the show as well and stuff.
This guy gets millions of downloads by the way.
And he knew about, and it's like they go.
That's that to me was like, okay, there is something.
There is something here. Yeah, and we just need to like
no. Keep continue to continue going
that path and I think having her as my co-founder was the best
thing I could have done for the podcast that point, I know it
kind of creeps into the personal life.
But once we got through the whole, is this a work
conversation or a personal conversation?
What are you angry world? Are you angry bird?
The things that I said before this started or is it the one
from the work bleeding? And so once you kind of got
through that initial kind of communication issues, I would,
if I were to call that, we kind of have found a rhythm to go,
okay? This is how this is work more.
This is possible mode. We actually call it out
sometimes, especially if you want to give like some
constructive feedback. Yeah.
We would actually say, look, this is the what conversation?
So, this flag and make it very obvious, okay, because you need
to be able to say those things. Like, you know, if I think,
Things not working or if you think something that I'm doing
is not working, you need to be able to say that to each other
and you know sometimes like if you're doing it at like as
breakfast table and we know we're having a personal
conversation, we just say I'll do mine for 5 minutes if we just
switch to a work conversation. So we make that very blatant.
Yeah. But I think that that has worked
for us because then we kind of like turn on a work brain on for
that second and goal came, you know I'm ready to take, you
know, like I just a professional conversation and it's not going
to be like oh why did you say this to me?
Yeah, so cool man I'm drawing so many repairs.
Sorry we should really go to dinner voice.
Turn next. If we show her, I don't mean to
put you on the spot. Yeah, I just love how you two
made it work, right. And you you were in your corner
like, starting a little fire and I want she saw the potential
that she threw some gasoline. Yeah, the bonfire.
Exactly. Also, with my pockets, you and I
need to know. Yeah.
It's also the personality as well.
I think like the based on the personality you have in your
partner, have that makes a difference as well.
Because it's almost like a when you talk to people who are do,
do investments in talk about, you should always have a
co-founder. Yeah.
But what I tell her is that I would any at any point in time,
even if we were to start another business, yeah, I would still
start with her. Not not just because she's my
wife but just also because the kind of partnership you can have
with say your girlfriend or your spouse or whoever the it the
level of honesty and transparency is quite High.
Yeah. When you have two different
people and Nothing against people who have like nachos,
husband wife, and or not as partners, like life partners and
starting businesses. But when you are not a life
partner, everyone has different priorities that you point this
parallels of life's going at that point in time.
Yeah, you may have something really important at that
particular point in your life which the other person is on
experiencing. So they don't know, they don't
know yet and they don't have to know as well but you kind of
have to like how do you make make that work with in a way
that oh I can't work this week. Yeah.
Whereas if it's your partner, you can do I know because, you
know, so-and-so has happened. So I'm happy to double down on
this there in the know they're in the know.
And there is understanding and kind of like a family thing at
that point in time. Whereas, when it's another
person, they may not be comfortable to share that with
their from the business fight and you may never find out.
You might just think, oh, this person is not a great worker.
Yeah, like, I did a bad decision by coming to this partnership.
Yeah, like I think of, we've heard of those scenarios as
well. So, for me, personally, the more
the longer that I've worked with shilpi, I feel like, oh, this
is, I want to do more of this with her.
Yeah. And I'm sure You know, we're
growing team. We have a couple of people who
work with us as well and a few more.
Now, thanks to the now, the kind of work we're doing full time,
but even as, as as much as it can grow, and we might bring in
more Partners, but the initial team for me, it would be this
particular do or dynamic duo that we are.
I think that would be the one that I'll go start off with
because and I'm sure there'll be things, we don't know.
Yeah. And we'll bring other partners
for that as well. But to start off with at least
because the initial piece is the hardest piece.
Once it catches traction you got it.
Yeah, it's like easy. He right?
Or you can only jump on the rocket ship.
It's already going up. Exactly.
Like there's very little you can do to screw things up.
Yeah, whereas when it's starting it's probably the most difficult
than, like, so totally years. Yeah, for three years.
We've been together onto this mission of making Cloud
security. Podcasts being the biggest
source for cloud security anywhere on the world.
Yeah, how does that happen? If you're not have the great and
understanding to go, I'm going to be I'm going to go through
this through hard grinds to happy moments through sad
moments too difficult. And that that's hard.
I mean that's my personal opinion.
I'm sure people out there like I can never work with my husband
or can I level at the right time in your relationship?
I didn't because I was talked about the fact that look if it
was maybe move together for 14 years so maybe like the first
few years I don't think it would have been.
All right that's for us. You know like every relationship
is different and everyone's Dynamic is different and we were
much younger when we got together so you know, you're
just different. So I think it just it they're
definitely benefits for a couple to be business partners.
Owners I guess on the flip side of what it she said, which like,
just from a business risk perspective is also, we
experience all the negative things together as well.
So that means you're kind of, you know, if something bad were
to happen, we would probably be equally involved.
Whereas if you have a co-founder who's not in the picture, then
they could probably be removed from that and, you know, be able
to take on more. So there is that I guess more
reward was more risks, I guess, anything in life, right?
I like that. You highlight it because the I
think the benefits are so good because especially if you come
together In a start-up at or even anything you want to do,
right. You need to trust people and
sure. Chumps trust comes out of the
box for me it does to other people but for someone that has
taken that trust and really just established it within your
relationship. Right.
You trust him with everything. Yeah partner.
Yeah we're thinking thin right? Yeah it doesn't get more
foundational than that so to be able to trust them to then start
on your business Endeavors, right?
And you've already established a good way of working.
I would assume. Yeah, because you're loving it
so far to just Move that forward, and I love that you say
it doesn't. It doesn't actually matter what
we're doing. Yeah.
Alright. Just having that partner with in
that process and then taking on anything else that you need to
make it actually happen. Yeah it doesn't really matter
what you want to do at the end of the day, I think is so cool
that you've established that. And I think I mean a lot of
people are seeking, right are seeking that within a co-founder
within a team within whatever they want to do.
Yeah. But for you to have found it and
to find that within your personal relationship as well.
I think is awesome, very admirable.
Yeah, thank you really cool. You shall be?
I wonder because she started this thing.
Did you already have a notion of like Cloud security, or where I
was going or even like on a technical level?
We always involved. Was that your background as
well? No.
So I come from a purely finance and legal bar, grounds have been
completely something else, not me, I guess having it has
different. Initially, that's what I was
thinking. Like, you know, it's so
different. I don't even know the field, you
know, how am I going to get involved?
But I think essentially like I used to deal a lot with business
risks. So I used to lead teams that
will dealing with legal and Financial.
Scanned cybersecurity. Funny enough is a business risk
so I they were actually a lot more parallels than I thought
there were conceptually. There's a lot of things that
really like, I just clicked from a business level I think,
especially when we're having conversations with Security
leaders and cisos, I do find that I can relate to a lot of
the problems that they talk about a lot of the challenges
that they're having. I think that was really sort of
interesting for me, I've always learned a loved learning new
things. So for me, that was really good
as well. So initially, obviously, I The
first six months I was a bit like, I'm not sure, you know,
because I do like look after the production of the podcast as
well. And then she was like, what is
This Acronym mean and stuff, but it's amazing like, in the last
three years, the amount of information I've been able to
absorb and I've taken the initiative to obviously learn
about different things as well, and I actually find it really
fascinating and I think I was definitely at that point in my
career where I was looking for something different.
I love you know, sort of, as he said, you know, becoming better
every day and and I think that's cybersecurity has been just so I
I didn't realize how interesting it was.
So I really get passionate about it now.
So I think it's been a great learning experience so and in a
way, I'm kind of like our audience.
You know, I'm actually listening to things that I want to learn
about some almost on the same Journey as our audience where
I'm learning about Cloud security with them.
Yeah, that is so cool. I'm really proud of her for
doing that because I think a lot of people underestimate coming
from a guy, said non-traditional cybersecurity background.
Yeah. Like I did a master's in cyber
security but that doesn't make me any more.
But not having a technology background coming and Technology
whoever does that? I think we have had a few people
on our podcast who were lawyers before.
They got into sub security Cloud security.
There were people who were like music teachers and you almost
look at all these different backgrounds coming into that
going, but they all kind of like what she did.
They all can draw paddles. Yeah.
And I'm going, wow. Like, I mean, and but for
someone who's always in cybersecurity a bit of a bias, I
always used to think that we are beautiful snowflake that, you
know, all because I did five security your snowflake.
Yeah, I am in many. Other ways.
But it's also fascinating for me that oh this kind of proves the
point that you don't have to come from cyber security or
technology. You can pick things up later on
like this. So many people who changes
change their career much later in their life.
Yeah, it doesn't have to be that.
Oh, I'm stuck in this field now because this is all I know I
can't learn anything new. You know, I'm really proud of
her for doing that and I think the cloud security, it's a bit
lucky because Cloud security itself has not been around for
that long. So, I mean, the Inception was 15
16 years ago. So like three years in Cloud
Katie's, I should quite a long, long time.
Yeah, I think I'm in to mediate so because it's just technology
is just not that new and most people are still sort of
scratching the surface of cloud security.
It's interesting because we often you know because we are so
into it. We forget how much of the world
still has not adopted plowed as a way like we still speak to
large insurance companies, large Banks, a lot of them who are
still very much on premise. So, it's really interesting to
realize that, you know, even though I'm fairly new to it,
yeah, like a lot. The industry is still fairly new
to it because yeah, it's like adoption is still happening and
we're still at the beginning of the journey.
I think it's so cool that you took that something that was
interesting and you really just took ownership of that and
really went in depth in that as well.
I think it, I mean, the perspective you bring to the
table, everyone has kind of a unique perspective, they bring
to the table, right? And it doesn't matter whether
you're you've grown up in your season security engineer, what
have you, right? If I'm even talking about myself
and software, engineering everyone has a unique thing.
They bring to the table and unique.
Dave might be your upbringing might be the environment you
grew up in. Might be the education you have
previously. Yeah you take that with you and
it might come in handy and usually does yeah.
It's what I've learned is like technology is actually quite
simple and the people make it so much.
Yeah, for sure. Like she don't talk about, that
is exactly supposed to be really complex, man.
It's a really hard job people. I think for us as well, one of
the benefits is that because he is very technical and he's been
doing like cyber Purity for a long, long time.
Yeah. And I'm slightly new one come
from a different thing. It's been actually really
beneficial for our business because the last thing you would
want us to people who think exactly the same way.
And I challenged a lot of the things because I'm new to the
field. I would question a lot of things
which has been really beneficial.
Yeah, for the podcast as well, because I come out.
Can't come from an almost Outsider lens, which is
beneficial for the business as well.
Yeah, that's been really powerful.
I like these that you're the audience.
Yeah. If you learn something, if you
take something or you take, Episode and you, it brings you
value. That's a good thing right?
Because then it might bring other people that same value as
well. Definitely.
So you know I so I till today just added all the podcast
episodes and it's a bit selfish because I actually want to
listen to them. Yeah.
And doesn't of them in depth, okay.
And I'll always come back to him saying like, you know, this was
really valuable. I really enjoyed this, you know,
this like give that feedback because I'm also trying to learn
about about the topic which would be the same as when our
audience is listening for. So yeah, that's been really
good. It's something that, you know, I
get a whole lot of value from Myself yeah that is so cool.
This the continuing continuing Improvement Circle you have
going on because you also give him feedback and probably he
gives you feedback on the editing or what have you as
well? Yeah.
Really cool. Yeah, I think we've gotten to
the point. Now, we are actually producing
something called Cloud free podcasts Originals, which is
like the Netflix version of cloud security as a way that
would not have happened if the feedback was not on going, okay?
It's so many things that I was taking for granted where she
would like, but where is that I was spoken about.
I'm like well isn't that obvious like It's not obvious.
Like so we started doing these original series.
I think you did one of digital digital supply chain.
I did 10 trust like the idea behind not, have you heard of
walks or vice? So, there will be the popular
news media, in New Journalism kind of channels on YouTube and
otherwise they do, they do documentary style.
And we've been, we used to watch a quite a bit of it.
They will cover interesting topics and we want to we took
inspiration from that and start covering interesting.
It's in the cloud security space, nice, and that quite a
lot of popularity. We did the one of the most
popular one is just for the different generations of cloud
security posture manager, which is like, a toolset framework
that Gartner just like a very popular.
They come out with metrics for what's a great tool in the
market. Yeah, and they came up with this
thing. They are came around alone for
throwing out acronyms. Yeah.
Every year, they have a different acronym, they mostly
start with a c for whatever the cloud was for some reason start
getting longer. So there's See nap in the cwpp.
And this like this, just like so many.
And one of the things for the industry is there's so many of
them coming out and everyone's kind of like, what do they mean?
Yeah. Like do I need one.
Do I need all of them or just one which ones?
Yeah. Which ones do I going for?
So I think it's funny because that's what we're trying to
debunk as well. That the marketing around the
cloud security space has become so boxed in into this particular
space at all. Unless you're working with the
four C's. Yeah, you don't really Have
anything. Like I think that's basically
all Cloud Securities is a within those four seas.
There's nothing else outside of it and I'm glad that now.
Slowly people are realizing that.
Oh, actually, why we're talking about developers and software
Engineers who are basically the right, the people who were
actually developed in the cord. Yeah, you guys are just talking
about being reactive or there's an incident.
Let's get onto it right. There's a fire to blow out but
let's just talk about how do we work with the developers?
How do we work with the business and that conversation is slowly
coming in back into Cloud security and to what shall be
said, 16 years old. Time for anything and even web
development has been there for long that long as well.
We're all trying to get get, you know, are different stages of
Technology where some people are still working with older
technology. Yeah.
Some people say, maybe working in Ruby today and my like oh my
God I can't believe I work in Ruby, I should be working in
node.js, so go do whatever I can.
Yeah, every field has that and I think I feel the cloud security
space is also in that place where the initial wave was all
about this. The four C's from cloud from
Gartner and now it's almost like wait.
Actually, let's just take a step back when do I really need this?
Because technically, I found the issue but I can't do anything
with it. I still have to go to a
developer to fix this. Yeah.
So why not write security became a lot about?
Here's your problem. Here's another problem.
Like, in this dashboards of
problems and a lot of organizations are going.
Okay, great. I know where all my files are,
but how do I put them up? So I think it's an interesting
time. I mean it's one of those
Industries that's growing really rapidly and there's a lot that's
happening, but So we've been trying to sort of put content
out there, that's really easy to consume that Tina and it's
entertaining. I think that's another thing
that we try and put a bit of humour in it, make it
absorbable. Because at the end of the day,
you know, there's so much knowledge and Technology.
If any field, you know, be a software development Cloud
security anything, there's so much to consume and for us it's
all about has to be short, has to be something that's easy to
absorb. You know, you can just listen
and like a podcast. You know that your it's a
relaxing as well. It's not like picking up a book.
It's not that heavy. Yeah.
I like these are easy to do. Sore, because security and Cloud
security. Obviously, as a component of
that, I think it is. It's the best when you don't
notice it, yeah? When there's no fires and
everything is smoothly, you don't even have to react, or act
or do anything. Yeah, everything is a smooth
operation. Yeah, yeah.
That makes it very not tangible for a lot of people because if
you're like, okay, we need these things in place because
otherwise, these things might happen that I could, he mean
might happen if they've never happened?
Yeah. What do we need this?
Yeah. Or they read something.
And like, we need all of this and you look why?
Why what are we trying to solve here?
Like, yeah, it's That tangible. No, no, people, people really
need it because otherwise, the committee screwed, especially
longest time, people used to question with a cloud security
is even a thing. Because clouds all the cloud
providers by Nature, were meant to be really sort of there is no
breach, you know their self resolving a lot of the gaps that
come up kind of all, you know, Auto remediate and everyone was
like what is cloud Security, even a thing?
And now obviously in the last few years, you know, we've had
things like look for Jay come up and there's all these like
different breaches like car. Currently everyone's talking
about the Uber breed. So there's lots of these
different things that are coming up now.
People are like yep, actually Cloud providers obviously,
automate remediating, but there's a lot of different gaps
that are still there. So it's been definitely an
interesting transition from going.
It's not a thing to. Okay, we need to pay attention
to this. Exactly, I love our Dimension as
well because I think the security being so automatic that
you don't even realize it, I mean, I'm an Apple user and I
think if you kind of go back enough, they had to use you
shall pass codes. Now, they have after that, they
Of complex ones now is to face ID.
Android has those as well. The, it is a security feature,
but it's all frictionless and it except the known questions it
when your face doesn't match your not thinking, oh, I hate
security. Exactly.
You thinking, oh my something's wrong with my face or something.
The thinking is very different. Yeah.
To be able to do that in the cloud security.
Space is kind of way where we want to get you.
It's almost so frictionless that when you are blocked, you know,
you do something wrong, you don't block because oh like you
know because something may happen the world may fall down.
Down it's more because or, you know, you have been 90% of
times. You don't even realize.
It's there that 10 or 25 percent that it's when you do experience
it. It's because something wrong has
happened and they just stopped you before it became a thing.
Yeah, that's where the future is.
It's not in like clearly Apple. Android those people have
realized his way before convincing like security when
you talk about clouds, okay? We're talking about technology
people but they are solving this problem for general consumers,
like every day, and like, you know, day in day or people
Grandmom's, granddad. Dad moms everywhere.
They're not technical people, at least.
Not all of them to convince them to be okay with a faith ID like
that is next level. Exactly, right.
I need to get to that point is they're all of us are striving
to. So, yeah, if you can get to that
point, I'll be order 1, Arie amazed, I'll be more than happy
if we can get to the point where we don't have to do a job.
I think we're thinking about doing more interesting things
than thinking about security. Yeah, I agree.
I mean, when when Cloud environments were available,
right? We had a landscape of
infrastructure. And a lot of it was facilitated
and step one is. Okay, let's see, let's see if we
can actually make make this work.
Yeah. Like can we actually deliver
some value to an end customer somewhere?
That's right. And that was step number one and
when people establish like a proof-of-concept, they're like,
okay let's make it scale. Yeah and then somehow they're
like at the end usually or when something goes wrong they're
like us. And it wasn't actually that
secured because we don't even wish I was still trying to
figure out how to use the cloud to its best capabilities.
Yeah. And even if you have your
application and even if it is Is secure.
You can still pay a lot at the end of the month by the things
that you're using, which you might not actually need.
Yeah, so the cloud is always this kind of ongoing kind of
organism we're trying to figure out from an application from a
software engineering perspective how to best use it from a
security perspective, how to make it the most secure it can
be. And then now we move from a
female perspective how to kind of reduce global warming in the
things that were using in pain. Yeah, that's pretty interesting
that I think I'd and it's amazing how many people have
started talking about the impact on climate with Loud as well.
Yeah, like so many Amazon Microsoft, they all talk spot,
talk about the Green Revolution as well.
So it is amazing. The fact that oh now it's not
just it's not just a conversation with politics is
the quantization one technology, people as well, where the things
we're using can be green as well.
And mean earlier, just like I make a program or a software, it
just goes out in The Ether. People use it.
I talk about with my friends and no one ever finds out.
It's tough. Yeah.
That's right. It sounds like oh amazing have
like 100,000 downloads and make a great amazing but now Able to
say, oh, it's a True Green, Apple always got running on
green infrastructure. That's an amazing feeling to
share people. Like I personally definitely
connect with them and people came out and said that they're
going to be green. I'm like, ah, the best thing
ever. Yeah, let's see if you look at
the weather outside and in general, like how dramatically
it is changing everywhere, and people still feel that climate
change is not normal. This is conversation where
people just start hate me. Hate mail, climate change is not
normal, but I think I definitely love that fact that people are
trying to go more green. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah. I think it's such an interesting
field were right in the The thick of it.
Yeah, but I feel like it's evolving, so rapidly, but every,
every new year, I read conference that the big cloud
providers do and they bring out new stuff on them and this is
really exciting. Yeah, I from a software
engineering perspective, a lot of things I give out of hand and
there. As you say, they are Auto
remediated. They're all of facilitating, the
autoscale their services. So we don't actually have to do
a lot of things, but then you still need that knowledge.
Which is a lot of in-depth knowledge has when shit hits the
fan, and you don't know about that.
But then all of a sudden you're screwed because you do need to
have that knowledge, that Foundation Knowledge of what
happens behind the scene, what are the remediate and what
doesn't, what serverless actually does and what you still
have in hand? I think, because everything gets
easier, we expect a lot more from the people, right?
Whether it's security or software engineering, and I
wonder if it goes to a point where it's too much where
something is like, okay, we expect all of this, all this
huge package just from you and the same is required from you.
And we're all going to be generalists, and we're not going
to know everything about everything.
I think one of the biggest challenges in Cloud As well as a
lot of, like, on default things. So a lot of cloud security
providers are giving up things by default, and when you
actually check them, they're not the best one for your
organization. As you said, you know, that
whole out-of-the-box generalize thing.
One of the biggest challenges recently has been that, you
know, they're finding that all these defaults are actually not
great for their organizations leaving things open.
They're not being configured properly.
So, there's a lot of those challenges that are coming out
as well, which, you know, as you said because everyone's being
possibly a generalist and just, you know, just uploading Things.
It does become a bit of a challenge.
When you go off at things on by default, and it shouldn't have
been, yeah. Now, what do I do?
Yeah. Which defaults are correct.
So there's a lot of fun. It was interesting because we've
been to quite a lot of security conferences this year and it's
been, I think a lot of people are doing a really, a lot of
really good work around educating people about.
Look, if you've got this application on say, AWS or
whatever, make sure, you know, these are the defaults.
And I, you sure if these are the right defaults, for you, and
same with Azure gcps the same. So, as you quite rightly know
that knowledge Is still missing. There's not enough, you know,
developers and security people out there.
Yeah. However, a lot of people are
moving to the cloud. So you know, how do you, how do
you fix it? And I don't think anyone really
has that answer, but it's agreeing that figuring out.
Well, I love the, I love this community in that we do as a
collective, right? Because I don't know what it is
about this Tech space that we have, but when there's
information, it's never being held hostage.
Yeah, it's being spread out to the fold and tribal people
discuss and, and new insights come from that.
And people, when Do that continuously exactly what we
said at the beginning. He becomes better.
All the and will become more informed of it.
Yeah, the world around us becomes better obvious, right?
We get to know so much more by hitting someone else's
perspective as well. It's not just us talking about
it. Yeah, but other people chatting
that their perspective, their experience from it.
I think it's just for the better, so maybe hopefully,
after this is the episode, someone out there starts another
version of a, I don't know, something that helps the
software Community as well as the security Community as well
just by inspired by all the podcasts.
Ian and all the cloud conversation, we're having a
lovely. Yeah, I would love that as well.
It's been amazing that if they start something.
So if someone's listening P, start something is that and let
us know because I don't just start and don't tell anyone just
start and let Patrick Camino or she'll be know that.
Hey, I heard this episode find inspirational, and I'm just
gonna start a podcast today and I'm sure you'll be happy to if
people reach out to you and go. Where do I start?
And I'm sure you can share your absolutely.
Absolutely. I love sharing about things that
I'm passionate about. Yeah.
Who doesn't, right? I just have to find Way to tone
it down, sometimes like might be a bit too much.
Very nice. I can't, I can't remember how
many times I've talked about the podcast on the podcast.
Some people might be sick of it, but I loved, I love how your
journey has gone so far. I'm really excited where the
future is going to bring you guys, I didn't mean for this to
be the main topic. I'm really happy that it got to
be though and I'm so I'm really appreciate you coming on and
sharing. Is there anything you still want
to share with our audience before we leave off?
Of. Well, I think I would probably
just say that the, you know, the first step whether it's for
podcasting or learning word. Cloud security can be
overwhelming. Yeah.
But the hardest thing you can do is not starting to learn Cloud
security or to learn sell software development or to learn
how to do a podcast, or that knitting hobby or whatever you
want to do, like know they must be, I mean, whatever gets them
going. I definitely feel after the
pandemic of come out of it like are more YOLO mode for hey, Now
we only have one life. Yeah and earlier before pandemic
over here we only have one like yeah I know, I know I have only
one life but now I'm only holy shit.
I only have one life. Is that I do.
I'm always more conscious of the fact.
Whenever I do meet someone, if I can, leave them inspired to do
something. I that that's for me.
My value is delivered. So, as I was saying earlier, if
someone listens to, this ins does even one episode on a
podcast or a YouTube video, or does it first knitting thing or,
you know, just learn something new today.
I'll be more than happy. That that that's my I think I
just my going away. Message, I guess.
Yeah, I love that. I think for me something that
I've been saying lately, and I think it's again, like from the
pandemic where, you know, for most people, a lot of the
external stuff was switched off for, you know, a good couple of
years. Yeah.
And he kind of went, you had the time to self-reflect and go.
Okay, what is it? That's really important to me.
And I think something that I've just been telling everyone is
like start living life on your own terms, whatever makes you
happy, whatever gives you fulfillment.
That's what you should be doing. So if that's a podcast for you
or if that's you know during a hobby of Fitness, YouTube
channel, whatever it is I think it's really taught us that you
just have to live your life on your own terms and do what makes
you happy awesome. I love I love that both.
I'm really later guys. I'm really happy we made it
happen. Yeah.
We actually discussed it like two days ago.
Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on
and doing this thing and we're going to run it off here, she'll
be in. I she said everyone where I'm
going to put all their stuff in the description.
Option below. Check them out.
Let them know you came from us and thank you for listening.
We'll see you on the next one. Thank you, thank you so much.