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We are better off with mediocre 
engineers. 

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At least they will listen to us.
Who has moved up the hierarchy? 

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People who are not the best of 
engineers. 

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Executives will still try and 
poke holes in that. 

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That's what they're really good 
at. 

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Seeing if this is bullshit, if 
this is fluff, or if it's 

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actually thought through will 
reason. 

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As a great engineer you should 
not aspire only to remain a one 

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man army unless you want to 
start a startup and change the 

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world The minute you say no. 
I want to handle the most 

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important and the complicated 
part first. 

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Almost 50 percent veins of it. 
Don't try to give a business 

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cage in a tech language, just 
make it simple. 

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Today I'm joined by Anan Sahai, 
Global CEO over at CVR. 

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And on that executive level, we 
discuss what great engineering 

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leaders do that really makes 
them excel. 

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Next to that, we discuss career 
paths for great software 

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engineers and we discuss what is
more important now more so than 

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ever for tech people. 
I was talking to Gregor Hope 

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also on the podcast, and he said
something that really stuck with

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me because he says the people on
certain executive levels, their 

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time is limited. 
So as a software engineer or an 

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architect in this case, when you
pitch to them, make sure your 

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idea is sound. 
Start with the most important 

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part, and then executives will 
still try and poke holes in 

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that. 
That's what they're really good 

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at seeing if this is bullshit, 
if this is fluff, or if it's 

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actually thought through, well 
reasoned. 

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And it's not necessarily to poke
holes, but just to actually see.

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Go deeper. 
Trust it. 

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That's the best way. 
Just go deeper. 

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Yeah. 
And you do that on a like a 

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level with with regards to the 
people you interact with. 

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And that's where my tech 
background helps so I can go 

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deeper if you want into an idea 
of tech. 

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Why? 
Why do you think I should do 

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this? 
Why should we start this? 

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There's always thing like we 
should start this, OK, but why? 

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Why not what we have? 
Let's put the money on what we 

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have again, starting something 
new. 

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Because then what we have, we'll
get less funding and what is 

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new, we'll get that. 
So what is the why? 

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Why this? 
Why should I do it? 

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And that's always complicated 
because the passion is showing 

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up. 
We must start it. 

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So and they usually talk to 
different guys and say there is 

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business. 
So again, we must start it. 

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And then you see the passion in 
their eyes of wanting to do it. 

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And this is where you make those
calls. 

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I don't like it, but I'll still 
give it because the guy is too 

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passionate about it sometimes 
because I'm like OK, 100K, he's 

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too passionate about it. 
This group of people to cut this

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off, although I'm not 
understanding what they're 

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saying, we'll be demoralizing to
the to those guys. 

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Might as well just give it. 
But then the other guy like 

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250K5, half a million. 
Why don't you do a smaller cut 

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off it proof to that. 
So quite a lot of times you are 

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investing just to keep the 
morale high and keep people feel

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that, you know, they are, they 
are hurt, whereas they haven't 

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given a compelling reason. 
It's not compelling, although 

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passion is showing, but it's not
compelling. 

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Yeah. 
And so those are the calls you 

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have to keep making. 
Gotcha. 

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In the engineering leaders or in
the conversations that you have 

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with engineering leaders, what 
do you see that makes them 

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really excel in what they do for
others to learn from? 

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So when you use the word 
engineering leaders, how would 

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you CT? 
OS, engineering managers, people

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that are quite technical and 
that have made it up quite high 

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on the hierarchy career. 
Level keeping it simple the the 

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lucidity of explaining why this 
needs to be done and how it will

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give you a real outcome changes 
the game. 

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Really. 
Yeah, so simple as that. 

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Because complexity. 
You can always make me go mad 

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with complexity and which is a 
problem with lot of good 

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engineers that it almost becomes
a tech talk and you don't get it

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that exactly what is he trying 
to get at, right? 

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I mean, I always give the 
example of micro services, 

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right? 
So I mean micro services not fit

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in every place because I 
understand service mesh and 

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micro services. 
So I'm like, do you really need 

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a micro service here? 
Yeah. 

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But every tech is is excited to 
write micro services. 

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I'm talking about two years 
back. 

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Let's trade in micro services. 
But why? 

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Right. 
So these are the kind of things 

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people who talk too much tech, I
get very, very worried at a 

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senior level. 
Yeah, do not try to give a 

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business cage in a tech 
language. 

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Just make it simple. 
And some people are very good at

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it trying to achieve this. 
This is the right tech for it, 

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because also comparing and 
contrasting against some of the 

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other tech. 
And then say if you do this, 

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these are the savings which can 
naturally come for the customer.

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OK, at least you can visualize 
what is it. 

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And then obviously we go back 
and do do our own work. 

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It's not that we heard and we 
are saying, OK, then we go back 

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and then we do a bit of 
searching, Googling on some of 

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the ideas. 
Because you even when it's 

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lucid, there are few things 
which you are not fully aware. 

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So there's a lot of homework for
us. 

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If you ask me. 
It's not that it just you tell 

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me and I'm like, OK, let's put 
100K on it, right? 

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I mean, it's we'll go back and 
of course, and sometimes you 

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give call to another guy you 
respect in tech and say, hey, is

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this something you are also 
following? 

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And once you see your own 
reading and these couple of good

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guys, and then, you know, I 
think the guy was exactly spot 

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on. 
Very interesting. 

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I feel like a lot of people that
are early in career, they do try

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and reason a lot from a tech 
level. 

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So when you're saying as you 
move up and as you go more 

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senior, keeping things simple 
and I think also tailored 

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towards your audience, even 
though I think your reasoning 

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needs to be sound and well 
argued, there is a risk nowadays

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that a lot of people can cut 
corners because you have this 

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magical box, which is large 
language models. 

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You ask a question, it pops out 
with an answer. 

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I feel like the better you do 
your homework, the more credible

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you will be because the people 
that will cut corners, they will

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actually fall through in the 
cracks, will show in their 

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story. 
Because I I see it all the time.

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People use the LLM to give me an
answer. 

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You read and you know the 
structure and you know this is 

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coming out of somewhere else. 
The problem is the answers from 

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the LLM are always well 
structured that it all looks 

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true. 
Of course. 

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Right. 
And there's enough prompting to 

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be done to get to the core of 
it. 

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And some do it great, but some 
just give you a superficial, 

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very well written so you are 
more impressed by the well 

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written part. 
And now I question it because I 

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know it's coming from somewhere 
who nobody understands. 

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And so I'm like, OK, this won't 
work for me because then there 

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has to be a better so. 
But people who, who know what 

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they're talking, their structure
of talking and sending you a, a,

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a, a mail is very different than
those who which comes from LLM. 

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It's almost instantaneously. 
I know. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
I think, I do think it's going 

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to get better, but so simple and
simplicity and that's one of the

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key factors there. 
Anything else? 

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I think this, I mean, for me 
this has all. 

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And then obviously I'm hoping 
the person also knows that the 

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simplicity with which you 
explained me a problem and the 

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solution which you are giving 
makes sense against the problem 

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you are solving with respect to 
money, right? 

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I mean in for example in Western
world, in Netherlands, if it 

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reduces 5 people as a because of
the automation of putting 

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together that application, value
of that is totally different. 

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If you have the same application
in India to be built, cost of 

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resources are different. 
Yeah, it's just a fact. 

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Yeah. 
And if you're not aware of that,

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so within the same problem 
statement in one region, a bank 

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in India, their way of looking 
at that problem will be 

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completely different than A than
a bank in Netherlands. 

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But the cost structures are 
different. 

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So you ACIO must also or C level
people must also have that 

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understanding. 
It's not about automating when 

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10 humans are cheaper than that 
automation and and and the 

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automation creates certain 
risks. 

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Unless you tell me the full 
picture. 

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Yeah, how to mitigate it? 
Yeah. 

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Otherwise, and that happens a 
lot. 

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That happens a lot. 
You go to a, a customer in 

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Vietnam and talk about, you 
know, how I can help you with 

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reducing the, the, the check 
frauds, right? 

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And give you the risk that XX 
will X percentage will not work.

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The guys will say, yeah, but I 
have 50 people in that 

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department. 
And humans are much better in 

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identifying a fraud because of 
certain things, how you pay and 

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everything, whereas an 
automation can miss it. 

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And then you'll keep a team of 
five people who will constantly 

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improve. 
So my total cost of ownership of

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this is much higher. 
So contextually you always have 

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to see what are you solving and 
what is the advantage. 

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Yeah, I feel like in my career 
I've always seen two types of 

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engineers. 
So the engineer and I see myself

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in there that is very curious, 
not just about tech, but also 

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business and outcomes. 
And I get way more energy of 

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achieving certain business 
outcomes than necessarily how we

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do it in tech. 
But then in the inverse, people 

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that grew up with tech that 
maybe have started coding when 

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they were 10, they really love 
how they code and it's a big 

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part of their skill set and it's
a big part has become part of 

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their identity. 
And I feel like the latter might

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not be well equipped to actually
then move up the career ladder 

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because you do need to 
compromise on certain quality 

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aspects of the tech you are 
creating to actually see how you

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can accelerate your business 
outcomes and more. 

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Think from a problem standpoint 
and not from a solution 

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standpoint. 
So you you hit a extremely 

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important point. 
Great engineers, those who 

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started at 10, are absolutely 
the ones who you love when they 

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are in the initial part of their
thing because they are showing 

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magic. 
But they quickly become a bit of

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a difficult people when you try 
to see it in the context of 

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outcomes because all about them,
it's all about what is 

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interesting to them. 
And business outcomes actually 

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takes a back seat. 
And then over a period of time 

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you begin to see, and I'm 
talking about non tech 

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management that we are better 
off with mediocre engineers. 

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At least they will listen to us.
And potentially because they are

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not great in their engineering 
hand, potentially they, they 

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begin to start appreciating the 
business outcome more and hence 

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together they seem to look 
better. 

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But in the reality they they 
look better to finish a program,

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to finish a project at a certain
cost in which management works. 

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But have they given the optimal 
solution? 

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Have they given us what was 
possible gets lost? 

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And that is why I always say 
unless good and great engineers 

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don't grow up the ladder and 
some going to CINTO and some 

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going into general management is
crucial for the actual impact of

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building great software with the
business outcome mindset because

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they are the ones who will be 
able to achieve that. 

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Otherwise a non tech manager by 
and large becomes a business 

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00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:41,800
money money guy. 
And for him, yeah, for him, a 

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00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,520
tech guy is a necessary evil 
because these engineers are 

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difficult. 
My God, we have to retain them. 

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So the discussion from outcome 
becomes more about can we keep 

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them happy till the project ends
and that has to change. 

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It's it's it's a necessity and 
the loss to the world because of

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this is enormous. 
And I have been thinking about 

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it for quite a number of years 
that good guys and imagine, I 

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00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,760
mean, I'm just thinking if Elon 
Musk and some of these guys must

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00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:22,280
have been awesome techies with 
an brilliant mind of being an 

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00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,560
outcome thinkers see how they're
changing the world, look at the 

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impact of them on the society. 
And I think every great engineer

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should be should try to see what
they can do about it. 

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There should be great engineers 
mentoring them to think like 

230
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that and not quickly take it 
towards culture. 

231
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I'm not happy. 
It's not me. 

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They have to get away from these
things. 

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And if they begin to learn this 
early and they are great 

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engines, I mean you have to mix 
it up in some way or other and 

235
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somebody needs to mentor them. 
The impact the the net impact 

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which can happen of these people
growing up to become senior 

237
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management is enormous and 
exponential in my view. 

238
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Yeah, I've been wondering within
organizations and within 

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enterprise. 
I me personally, I have a lot of

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00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,560
ambition and I have no clue what
I want to do with my career. 

241
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So I turned 30 this year. 
So especially 30s like a mid 

242
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,400
midlife crisis. 
I was thinking either I'm going 

243
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,840
to stay with an enterprise 
Oregon, I'm going to do startup,

244
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,560
or even maybe content creation 
outside of enterprise. 

245
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,880
But within enterprise, I think 
it's good if you get into a 

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position where you're incredibly
valuable, where you are a 

247
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multiplier and the people that 
are really good in tech, there 

248
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,040
is now a career path where you 
can stay as individual 

249
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,440
contributor and you will still 
be, I think a really good 

250
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,120
multiplier because people will 
come to you for answers. 

251
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You will still enable other 
people and you will be hands on.

252
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,600
And then there is the other 
path, which is the one you're 

253
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mentioning. 
You move up the career ladder, 

254
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,360
you either become a manager or 
you become AC level tech person.

255
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,360
And from that aspect, I think 
it's still a multiplier, but it 

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00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,360
just is amplified even more 
towards an organization. 

257
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,560
And from that perspective, 
there's only so many people on C

258
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,040
level. 
I feel like you become 

259
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,560
irreplaceable in that way to an 
organization. 

260
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:14,440
Oh yeah. 
Yeah. 

261
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,320
And I think every large company 
today, if you look at at the top

262
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,160
of the pyramid, you'll find 
those tech tech guys, those 

263
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:27,080
engineers who just understood 
how the world works, how the 

264
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,680
company is funded, where is the 
money coming from? 

265
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,200
What is important to the 
customers, what is important to 

266
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,440
society. 
Those kind of people are the 

267
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:36,760
ones who are at the top of the 
play. 

268
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,680
And I think that should be a 
single most important aspiration

269
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,360
for all birding techs who are, 
who love the idea of writing, 

270
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,840
you know, the the craftsmanship 
in natural in them, right? 

271
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,800
Who who naturally want to do 
something great with the 

272
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:58,240
software, but have a larger view
or have built a larger view of 

273
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,280
how the company functions. 
Who begin to appreciate. 

274
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,600
You know, one of the other thing
which you'll see, Patrick, is 

275
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,680
quite a lot of soft engineers 
have a problem that they're so 

276
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,440
good in what they do that they 
begin to get a blind spot that I

277
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,080
know better how finance works. 
I know better how managers work.

278
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,680
I know better how ACEO should 
work. 

279
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:20,280
It's arrogance. 
Yeah. 

280
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,280
It almost borders arrogance. 
So I think it is very important 

281
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,840
to understand that the people 
who are in the other field and 

282
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,840
have grown, they must also be 
have some having some 

283
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,720
intelligence in their field and 
can I learn their point of view.

284
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:41,600
I think that itself very quickly
will allow other functions to 

285
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,400
invite them in their problems. 
Today, the senior management or 

286
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,000
the managers of different 
departments want to avoid it 

287
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,800
because they think the 
conversation will go nowhere. 

288
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:55,480
If someone is very headstrong. 
Yeah. 

289
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,520
Or if I discuss my real 
problems, he will go out and 

290
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,560
say, wow, this company, yeah, 
they talk like this. 

291
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,240
Money seems to be the only thing
which matters to them. 

292
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,640
Well, how the world works, 
right, What is A tag, What is a 

293
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,000
CapEx investment? 
What is the OpEx investment has 

294
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,520
a direct bearing of how 
softwares are built. 

295
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,359
Yeah, yeah, definitely. 
And you have to appreciate it. 

296
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,200
You you cannot just say that I 
don't care about these things. 

297
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:27,079
These are so somehow opening 
their minds to how the world 

298
00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:30,160
works, how the money flows. 
What is the financial 

299
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:35,320
architecture Yamil Financial 
architecture of software is 

300
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,680
crucial and it's not tough to 
appreciate. 

301
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,720
You just have to be. 
You know, I almost want every 

302
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:48,000
awesome engineer to get those 
one week as finance as finance 

303
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:53,560
function go and see what they do
and if they are open to 

304
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,600
learning. 
These guys will become the 

305
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,440
future very quickly. 
Yeah, this is a, it's a big if, 

306
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:00,520
right? 
And it's very interesting 

307
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,000
because software engineers, it's
hard for me to compare to other 

308
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,760
industries, but they can be like
mini entrepreneurs. 

309
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,720
They really take a task, a 
problem, they create something 

310
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,520
and it has direct sometimes 
impact to users, to customers, 

311
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,760
to financial parts of 
industries, which also means 

312
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,680
that, yeah, that there is kind 
of an innate arrogance that 

313
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,080
grows with people. 
I've seen it. 

314
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,280
I feel like, and maybe this is a
personal trait. 

315
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,360
I like to be humble. 
I like to say I this is kind of 

316
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,120
what I know or what I think I 
know. 

317
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:31,840
I like to talk and say very 
explicitly, these are 

318
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,880
assumptions that I have. 
I like to be explicit with my 

319
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,520
language and it's very inviting 
to then another person to chime 

320
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,560
in and I like to Co create for 
me. 

321
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,320
It's very daunting to say I am 
the only person that knows. 

322
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,120
And if I fall back, then the 
whole organization crumbles. 

323
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,600
From an engineering standpoint, 
I don't think that should ever 

324
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:48,840
be a case. 
That's a risk for an 

325
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,800
organization, 100%. 
Yeah, yeah. 

326
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,240
So I I think if, if we can get 
an ecosystem running in the 

327
00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:02,120
world where we can create, I 
don't know if it has to start 

328
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:08,080
with education where you can 
sort of encourage great 

329
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,400
engineers. 
And I use the word great 

330
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,320
engineers all the time because 
mediocre engineers by and large 

331
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:19,040
are more aware of some of the 
systematic issues because one, 

332
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,560
they don't want to be 
confrontational. 

333
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,080
So they begin to understand the 
point of view either by the 

334
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,560
choice that they don't have a 
choice or because they listen 

335
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,480
more because they know I'm not 
I'm not a no all person. 

336
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:39,120
And as a result become natural. 
You will see them being pulled 

337
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:44,960
up into the hierarchy, but what 
is happening that sub optimality

338
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,800
is growing up the hierarchy. 
Yeah, that's also a risk. 

339
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,280
And that's a huge risk. 
So by the time they're hitting 

340
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:56,440
ACIO function, you can imagine 
what is the devastating impact 

341
00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,120
on the organization. 
And and I always use the word 

342
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:05,520
society at large because we have
to see with every function 

343
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,800
become tech, common becomes 
tech. 

344
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,400
Unless we get the right people 
there and if you allow sub 

345
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,480
optimal engineering mind to go 
there, even if they are humble, 

346
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,320
it has a direct impact of how 
you are solutioning the larger 

347
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,560
problems of the world. 
And I think that must be 

348
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,320
understood by the best of them, 
the best of the techies that in 

349
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,040
the end, I want to be an 
engineer when it makes the 

350
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,800
impact to the society and I I 
want to really encourage. 

351
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,560
I mean the more I talk to other 
engineers who I who are quickly 

352
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:46,040
spotted and in ZBI think we have
a lot to quickly understand this

353
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,240
aspect. 
Culture. 

354
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,840
Yeah. 
And I see that when they hear 

355
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,240
it, they quickly go back and do 
their research, right. 

356
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,320
And then the next thing is how 
your their natural instinct of 

357
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,400
feeling of finding fault in 
other departments, of finding 

358
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,200
sub optimality in other 
departments can be seen in a way

359
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,560
to improve. 
And rather than saying, yeah, 

360
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,360
it's useless, useless. 
So you'll hear that word a lot, 

361
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,480
right? 
And and and and this whole 

362
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,480
aspect of what is in it for me 
now you're solving a problem and

363
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,480
what is the need for the people 
who are going to use it is most 

364
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,160
important. 
It's a real mindset shift. 

365
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,360
I feel like this path, I don't 
think it's for everyone because 

366
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,640
there is a lot of people 
interaction and some people just

367
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,600
they it drains their energy 
interacting with people getting 

368
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,520
by and thinking about political 
credit. 

369
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,680
When do I apply something or 
when do I actually say not my 

370
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,600
battle this time, but the people
that can, I do think they are 

371
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,680
going to make a real big impact.
But I would I would add one more

372
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,680
aspect. 
A lot of awesome engineers have 

373
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,960
a think about being solving 
alone. 

374
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,560
Team is not naturally. 
And even if I want to create a 

375
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,120
team, everybody should be like 
me. 

376
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:10,600
But I don't think even if you 
work, if you don't like the idea

377
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:17,040
of managing people, the idea to 
appreciate what you're trying to

378
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:22,120
achieve or what companies are 
trying to achieve itself can 

379
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,880
take them up to hierarchy. 
They're done in part of the 

380
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:31,840
think tank, so I would say as a 
great engineer you should not 

381
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:37,560
aspire only to remain a A1 man 
army unless you want to start a 

382
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,480
startup and change the world. 
Which is very achievable 

383
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:41,280
nowadays. 
Please do it. 

384
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,320
Please do it. 
But then if you are of that 

385
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,960
kind, then absolutely don't try 
to remain in a enterprise 

386
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,040
organization. 
Go start something and change 

387
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,680
the world. 
And I'm pretty sure as you will 

388
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,200
build that thing, you will again
need a different guy to run it 

389
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,960
as it becomes bigger. 
And maybe yeah, because then it 

390
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,320
is best that you slightly move 
and start another one, because 

391
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,920
the minute it becomes bigger you
have the same problem, even 

392
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,720
things that you start. 
And they are very successful. 

393
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,760
Very successful and not a bad 
idea, but if you're a great 

394
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,120
engineer and you want to remain 
in enterprise, you will. 

395
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,080
And if you're not learning 
these, then you slowly become a 

396
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,440
liability because everybody 
knows he's awesome, but every 

397
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,600
nobody wants to really. 
Interact. 

398
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,000
Interact with you at all and you
slowly become a person who who's

399
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,240
a, hey, I don't know till when 
he's going to stay because 

400
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:36,920
you're not really impacting 
anything. 

401
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:39,560
It's the negative energy which 
is pulling through. 

402
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,120
I like what you mentioned that 
even though you might not manage

403
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:45,920
people, you might not move up 
the hierarchy. 

404
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,160
If you are an individual 
contributor, very senior, you 

405
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,560
will still have influence and 
you will be part of an 

406
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,160
organizational think tank. 
Because I've had another person 

407
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,320
on, he's responsible for his VP 
of engineering at Samsara 

408
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,320
Praveen and he used to work at 
Uber as well. 

409
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,560
And he's saying that from 
projects that we have, some 

410
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,640
projects just have risk innately
and the projects with low risk, 

411
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,760
we can put an early in career 
person backed by an engineering 

412
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,800
manager. 
So to mitigate that risk. 

413
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,720
And early in career people, they
can actually excel and learn on 

414
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,000
the job and actually thrive in 
projects, being responsible for 

415
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,040
that project and that piece of 
work, the work where we cannot 

416
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,640
afford any risk that close to 
the highest level staff 

417
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,880
engineers that we have. 
It doesn't mean that the senior 

418
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,480
level is not good enough. 
It's just the risk mitigation 

419
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,720
factors. 
It's all business. 

420
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,440
So we want to really mitigate 
risk. 

421
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,440
It goes to a staff engineer. 
That person is still responsible

422
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,840
for individual contribution, can
carry projects over the finish 

423
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,600
line, but they are not managing 
other people necessarily. 

424
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,160
And they are probably very happy
with that because that is 

425
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,040
organizational impact to the 
highest degree where we cannot 

426
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,560
afford risk and you're 
responsible. 

427
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,800
Yeah, that's impact. 
Yeah, you always need some of 

428
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,200
those. 
And those people were good 

429
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,520
enough to start their own 
companies by. 

430
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:54,600
They will. 
Yeah, exactly. 

431
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,760
So you have to keep them happy 
with interesting work. 

432
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,240
But that has to be a smaller 
percentage in an org. 

433
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,080
Yeah, it cannot be everyone. 
Because the people. 

434
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,960
If you create an org which is 
full of those then the chances 

435
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,040
are it it will have a counter 
effect. 

436
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,360
They will leave, I also think, 
because you will not have 

437
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:11,800
interesting work for everyone if
that's your whole. 

438
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,960
They will leave engineering 
force and you will not get the 

439
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,080
outcome than few who can take 
you to the finish line. 

440
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,800
Yeah. 
So you have to balance that. 

441
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:22,360
Interesting. 
You always have had kind of a 

442
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:26,360
background in in engineering, 
but you very consciously moved 

443
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,120
to CEO, your CEO not CTO, Yeah. 
Why is that? 

444
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,400
So yeah, I started as a tech, 
right. 

445
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:38,440
So I think it helped me later. 
But you know, I as I grew, you 

446
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,960
know what I began to see that 
I'm able to understand what 

447
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,960
customer is saying and was 
gravitating more towards that 

448
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,240
part and little bit of, you 
know, destiny that, you know, I 

449
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:59,800
did my MBA. 
And in those years, early 2000, 

450
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,600
once you do an MBA, your natural
outcome was more towards, you 

451
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,400
know, selling customer 
interaction, solving customers 

452
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,960
problem and build the business. 
And that's what led me to more 

453
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,640
sales. 
So from tech to, you know, 

454
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,480
little bit of a pre sales in 
between then my studies and then

455
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:24,120
moving into sales And what I 
realized that my my natural 

456
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:27,040
ability to understand what 
sales, what, what customer is 

457
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:32,080
asking and my small experience, 
3 or 4 years. 

458
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,600
That's all of doing tech is 
coming very handy because I'm 

459
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,880
understanding him and I'm able 
to explain how he should be 

460
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,960
thinking in a in the systems way
was better than in the guy who 

461
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,040
would only sell. 
And that gave me the first 

462
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:52,200
confidence that this seems to be
a phenomenal area because I know

463
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,760
tech enough to understand how to
apply to solve this problem. 

464
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,280
I'm pragmatic, I'm not, I'm not 
overdoing it. 

465
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,960
So when I hear that how much 
funding he has, you know, he's 

466
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,160
funding it's is it a maintenance
kind of a thought process or is 

467
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,400
it revenue generating 
application? 

468
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:17,200
My idea of how we should 
approach the solution was 

469
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,760
naturally very attractive to the
customer because they felt OK, 

470
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,440
he understands a little bit of 
how we are funding it. 

471
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,520
So ultimately it was something 
we discussed earlier. 

472
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,920
It was all about understanding 
where the how the money flows, 

473
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:31,920
not that I was aware at that 
time. 

474
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,200
But you were curious. 
But I was curious because to 

475
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,680
sell you must know that. 
Should I spend time with this 

476
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,320
person? 
Does he have the money? 

477
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,120
That obviously was making me 
curious about the money and that

478
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:54,440
eventually helped me because as 
I grew further into sales, that 

479
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,560
got me curious more towards why 
projects fail even after 

480
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,360
funding, how are we not able to 
deliver, why tech organization 

481
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,840
is not able to deliver on that. 
And that's where my interest in 

482
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,560
Conway Law and some of those 
really became what you want to 

483
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,160
build as a system is totally 
dependent on the communication 

484
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,920
pattern of the of the units 
which are building the system, 

485
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:23,760
right. 
And I'll give you an example 

486
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,840
because this is a bit of a 
archaic concept that if you have

487
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,000
a front end team, you want to 
build an amplific system which 

488
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,680
has a front end team and a back 
end team. 

489
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:34,760
So how will the system look 
like? 

490
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,680
There will be a front end 
architecture, there will be a 

491
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,920
back end architecture. 
And what you really wanted was 

492
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,480
the more maybe unified 
architecture. 

493
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,840
So basically since you created a
silo of front end team and back 

494
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,320
end team, you actually got a 
system which has these two and 

495
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,880
and if you had the security 
team, potentially you'll have a 

496
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,640
security after the system is 
made. 

497
00:28:55,360 --> 00:29:00,080
So your organization is your. 
Your system is totally 

498
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,920
reflecting the communication 
pattern of the units. 

499
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,720
Is this also where most projects
fail in the research that you 

500
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,000
did back then? 
Oh yeah. 

501
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,920
So the more I saw that and more 
like, OK, the more you create 

502
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,320
teams which definitive 
structuring, the more it begins 

503
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,480
to fail. 
It is failing by the nature of 

504
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,240
this communication and 
interfaces. 

505
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,160
So can there be a better model? 
And you will see, you know, I 

506
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,400
mean within our own company and 
others, we have tried to resolve

507
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,240
quite a lot of that issue by 
bringing units together. 

508
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,080
In the end, if you want customer
outcome, then the team should be

509
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:44,120
simple outcome, right? 
So how you create and I think 

510
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,880
you know, be it on the Spotify 
models and other models, you 

511
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,240
will see they have tried to 
solve, solve these issues that 

512
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,520
you know, how do you organize? 
And that is why good tech who 

513
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,800
are aware of some of this 
organizational structures and 

514
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,120
how the systems are made can 
also be a big plus. 

515
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,920
If those are the people who grow
up to also decide how based on 

516
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,520
what you need, how the org 
should be today. 

517
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,280
It's a non techie guy or a non 
software engineer who is 

518
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,840
deciding how should be the org 
structure. 

519
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,040
So the problem starts really 
early and that is why, Patrick, 

520
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,800
I'm again saying the best 
engineers, we have to maybe 

521
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,400
identify them early and take 
them into different subject 

522
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:30,320
areas. 
Gotcha. 

523
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,440
Yeah. 
If you really want to make a 

524
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,400
real impact, otherwise software 
development will continue to be 

525
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:42,880
called an expensive necessity, 
where all your mind will be not 

526
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,360
on the outcome, but how to 
retain, how to keep them happy 

527
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,800
and almost a entitled. 
It's like us versus them. 

528
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,680
Team and that has to end. 
Yeah, I fully agree with that. 

529
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,640
Yeah, in a lot of people that 
ask questions, I can see they 

530
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,440
are early in career and they're 
asking what type of organization

531
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,160
should I be in for me to grow 
and XLS fast as possible, you 

532
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,880
know, very ambitious. 
And I think early in career 

533
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,840
people more so because they have
less responsibilities, no house,

534
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,200
sometimes no pets, no kids, 
potentially no relationships. 

535
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,400
Yeah, on the longer term, so 
they can focus on their career 

536
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,440
and they want to really. 
And my advice to them is always 

537
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,880
go to an organization where tech
is an asset, is a partner, is 

538
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,280
treated like such because you 
will have room to excel. 

539
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,440
People will give you space and 
time to grow and you'll have a 

540
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,000
lot more responsibilities. 
If you are in an organization 

541
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,520
where it's really that US versus
them and tech is a cost and a 

542
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,320
liability and we don't really 
trust them. 

543
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,800
I think it's too far gone. 
I wouldn't even know how to 

544
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,680
change that in an org. 
I would just be like, I'm not 

545
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,400
going to go there, I'll go here.
It's that. 

546
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,080
But it has to start now or start
somewhere because with every 

547
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:53,320
company becoming a tech company,
we have to get that culture of a

548
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:58,400
tech starter where the right 
tech people are at the right 

549
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,840
hierarchy levels enabled, yes. 
Otherwise good, good soft 

550
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,680
engineers are not coming into 
companies because they they find

551
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,120
the culture bad because the 
culture has been going on for 

552
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,800
years, right? 
I mean, who has moved up, By the

553
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,840
way, I'm not making a very 
sweeping statement. 

554
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,080
By and large, who has moved up 
the hierarchy? 

555
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,680
People who are not the best of 
engineers but had a more 

556
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:31,320
appreciation of business, more 
little bit of being confirmative

557
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,640
to what management wants. 
Those are the people who moved 

558
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:35,520
up. 
Easy to work with. 

559
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,520
Yeah. 
So how are you thinking that 

560
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,560
they will appreciate the best of
engineers? 

561
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,440
No, it's like it will be 
cascading. 

562
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:46,080
Yeah, it has to start. 
And then and with the world 

563
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:51,320
moving towards becoming a tech, 
it's important that this is this

564
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,400
is resolved. 
And now with AI coming in, 

565
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,960
imagine how what is, what is 
coming, what is staring at us. 

566
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:05,240
Whole new way of building 
software and whole new way of 

567
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,080
what you want from AI. 
It's almost becoming human 

568
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,840
intent and values. 
Yeah, right. 

569
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,760
So how do you bring an outcome 
of human intent and values when 

570
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,480
you build a build a software 
imagine the organization needed 

571
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,040
at that time. 
I still haven't thought it 

572
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:30,880
through, but I I'm I'm very 
clear responsible AI bias has 

573
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,040
not need not be there right. 
And it's it's less to do with 

574
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,840
the engineering, it's the 
outcome which is beneficial to 

575
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,800
the society or the customers. 
How should we organize it? 

576
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,400
Going back to the Congress law, 
How will you organize the new 

577
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:57,160
world of tech organization? 
What kind of people are supposed

578
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,600
to be at the top of the pyramid 
now? 

579
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:07,560
So these are, if you ask me, are
the real thinking, which 

580
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,840
sometimes I I'm trying to seek 
from the learned people on the 

581
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,120
from different places to 
understand how are people 

582
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,719
thinking? 
How are the gurus thinking? 

583
00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:20,760
And how should we move our own 
companies to be in line with 

584
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,440
that, to be productive? 
I talk to a lot of people and I 

585
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,880
don't have a single outcome yet.
Everyone kind of figures out 

586
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,199
what works for their own context
and the only way they get there 

587
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:34,360
is through experimentation. 
What I have seen as advice for 

588
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,760
any engineer, and I also 
subscribe to that idea, is AI as

589
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,520
a tool, right? 
And your your value on top. 

590
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,679
If the tool becomes good enough 
to replace you, then indeed. 

591
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:48,000
So if you copy whatever you get 
from a tool as outcome and 

592
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,320
that's what you commit to and 
that's what you engineer and 

593
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,000
whatever software you're 
building, then you have no value

594
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,600
on top. 
Then I might as well just have 

595
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,360
the tool and not have you. 
If you just copy paste, then it 

596
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,600
turns out to be incorrect, then 
you're even worse the liability,

597
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,560
right? 
So you have to take ownership of

598
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,360
that, and you have to bring 
value on top. 

599
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,800
And you can do so by having 
really good fundamentals. 

600
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,840
So actually seeing what the 
model has an outcome, seeing how

601
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,120
it fits in your context and 
seeing if that's a good match. 

602
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,440
Doing reviews and more code 
reading than ever before. 

603
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,280
Way more than writing. 
So your draft. 

604
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,720
Changes governance. 
Yeah, yeah, all of us and much, 

605
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:24,680
much more. 
And I think now more so than 

606
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,320
ever, understanding your 
business context and the 

607
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,160
problems you're trying to solve.
Yeah, I mean I was, you know, 

608
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,920
listening to one of the C level 
people in USA couple of months 

609
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,920
back and they are a, they build 
banking products, lending 

610
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,640
products and they want to 
implement AI. 

611
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:51,520
And here is the problem, they 
cannot have a situation because 

612
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,760
the lending product is priced 
based on who you are, you're 

613
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,680
buying power and all different 
kinds of, you know, series of 

614
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,400
things. 
Based on that, the pricing is 

615
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,600
done. 
The worry is if you create this 

616
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:11,400
AI model which prices you, it 
begins to misbehave with respect

617
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,080
to minorities. 
What will happen? 

618
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,560
How do you take that out? 
Now? 

619
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,480
This is becoming a engineers 
problem. 

620
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,160
If you look at it, it is 
certainly becoming a very, very 

621
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,320
engineering problem. 
It has to be taught. 

622
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,280
Ebenezio, not a much later 
thought. 

623
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,120
So how we are we going to manage
that? 

624
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,160
Because AI will act now. 
It's reasoning and acting. 

625
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,920
So how are you thinking? 
So the awareness of great 

626
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,360
engineers around these aspects 
with all the previous discussion

627
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,280
we did related to how money 
functions and the org structures

628
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,520
all has to come together. 
So it's even more intense now as

629
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,680
I see the way the world is 
moving. 

630
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,080
It's interesting, this problem 
was always a problem in machine 

631
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,000
learning, like how to how to get
rid of bias. 

632
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,520
I feel like with the 
availability of large language 

633
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,640
models, it's just amplified 
because if you have better 

634
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,240
access, all of a sudden these 
problems also get then 

635
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:12,240
highlighted, which we still need
to solve. 

636
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:15,280
Like all engineering problems 
are are still there and we have 

637
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,480
more complexity now more so than
ever if we're trying to fit AI 

638
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,440
into tooling. 
And you, as you said, you need 

639
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,440
the best engineers now because 
they must understand how LLM 

640
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,040
functioned. 
So unless you know the unless 

641
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,600
you are a great engineer, you 
can't even understand how to 

642
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,640
interpret the outcome. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

643
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,400
I I had a question for you 
though, because as engineers 

644
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,880
going to move out of their 
day-to-day, if I'm in my 

645
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,560
day-to-day and I'm individual 
contributor, I stay on top of a 

646
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,320
lot of things and I'm productive
on the keyboard and I know my 

647
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,480
tech and I also what what comes 
out with regards to frameworks 

648
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,520
or languages or tooling 
infrastructure. 

649
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,760
I keep more up to date with 
regards to models as well, 

650
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,000
because that is what I'm 
responsible for as I move up the

651
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,200
ladder. 
This is where I've seen the 

652
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,400
biggest risk, where people that 
have had history in tech 

653
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,280
potentially five years ago, 
sometimes even 10 years ago, 

654
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,160
still really rely on that 
fundamental knowledge, but the 

655
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,520
reality changes. 
So that's a danger for me. 

656
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,200
When someone has outdated 
information and they really act 

657
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,640
according, they might not listen
to the signals of current day. 

658
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,000
And I don't know how to prevent 
that other than actually, if 

659
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,080
people have a solid foundation, 
moving up the ladder and still 

660
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,080
very much keeping up to date, 
either through personal projects

661
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,600
or to just hands on things, but 
really staying up to date. 

662
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,320
And and Patrick, what I felt 
because in the early days I used

663
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,440
to have that phenomena of 
saying, let me check. 

664
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,840
But as you grow, you don't, you 
will not be able to catch up by 

665
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,480
having a private project 
running. 

666
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,320
It's too much to see it by hand.
And that is when your 

667
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,960
fundamental grounding in that 
system thinking with your 

668
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:55,200
ability to engage with your team
to make a determination and 

669
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,560
creating an intuition of what 
you're approving or what you're 

670
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,480
saying should be the way forward
becomes important. 

671
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,120
So you will have to become 
intuitive. 

672
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,840
But then without fundamental 
grounding, you can't become 

673
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,160
intuitive. 
So what I'm what I feel, imagine

674
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:18,720
a guy who's not a great engineer
and has grown up. 

675
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,440
Imagine how he can create the 
problem. 

676
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:27,840
So good engineers who are who 
work hands on, spend a lot of 

677
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,760
time understand the concept and 
is able to. 

678
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,480
And when a new concept comes, 
he's able to quickly relate and 

679
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,080
has ability to talk to his team 
little bit in depth to 

680
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,200
understand how things have 
changed. 

681
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,480
Will be the best ones to govern 
and move forward. 

682
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,080
But at some point of time you 
have to go away from saying 

683
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,560
that. 
Unless I check it with my own 

684
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,280
hand I don't get a sense. 
It's like micromanaging. 

685
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,360
Yeah. 
So you will have to build that 

686
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,680
intuition and you'll be 
surprised because I went through

687
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,440
that. 
Your intuition are not way too 

688
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,840
off. 
It's only the amount of homework

689
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,040
you do after that to make sure 
your intuition. 

690
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,160
What are the adjustment to the 
intuition? 

691
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,080
OK. 
And that confidence, you'll have

692
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:16,520
to take that if a new concept 
has come, it's not that your 

693
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,680
historical background or 
grounding is not going to help 

694
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,040
you. 
When you talk to and get into 

695
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:28,240
the, you know, real play and see
what people are doing, it's very

696
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:31,720
quickly comes. 
And that intuition of a senior 

697
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:36,320
guy is so much helpful even to 
the younger ones, despite of you

698
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,520
not being the expert of that new
new area. 

699
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:42,040
I like that a lot. 
Yeah, from your perspective, you

700
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,760
must engage with a lot of C 
level people, tech level people,

701
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,880
especially people that have 
grown up, that are really 

702
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,240
senior, they might even be 
strong headed. 

703
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,320
So from your perspective, either
you have to say, OK, this is my 

704
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,840
vision and this is what we're 
going with, or you have to 

705
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,760
sometimes agree to disagree, 
choose your battles accordingly.

706
00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:03,760
What makes you actually say, I'm
going to agree to disagree and 

707
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,040
we're just going to go with the 
person that I trust on the 

708
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,360
technical level? 
See, one thing is very clear, as

709
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,520
you, you know, get into more and
more general management, you 

710
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:17,080
have your intuitions, but you 
also begin to appreciate that 

711
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:23,320
there are people who could be 
thinking which is not naturally 

712
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,960
in your line of thought and 
ability to judge it. 

713
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,320
Make your own assessment, do 
some digging, spend time and 

714
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:39,240
then you have to make assessment
that maybe what they're saying 

715
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:48,040
is not intuitively exciting me, 
but it could be right, right. 

716
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,480
So that's the first part. 
It could be right. 

717
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:51,720
It could be right of the 
company. 

718
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,920
Then the idea is fail fast. 
OK, give it, but test it you. 

719
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,520
It has to be on your one of the 
agenda on your desk to check if 

720
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,320
it's happening because it can 
quickly spill money which could 

721
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,640
have been deployed at something,
something else. 

722
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,800
Because at every point of time, 
the money has to be prioritized 

723
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,000
where which one you want to move
to build your company further. 

724
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:22,360
Then there are some, which is 
very I, I don't want to use the 

725
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,080
word cultural, but it is also 
about motivational, right? 

726
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,000
I mean, there are your, your 
engineers are always excited 

727
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,680
about something, right? 
It could be for a conference, it

728
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:39,160
could be for that we must dabble
in say, quantum, right? 

729
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:44,160
I want to dabble in quantum 
should you spend or not, right? 

730
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,200
So intuitive could be it's for 
future. 

731
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,040
Let's try. 
So I will say yes, but manage 

732
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:50,840
it. 
The other one conference. 

733
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,480
You don't believe this 
conference is important to you? 

734
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,120
But my engineers are super 
excited. 

735
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,760
So I, I, I, I don't think this 
money is well deployed, but that

736
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,880
excitement is also worth 
something to me. 

737
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,440
And hence you just say, OK, I, I
don't like the idea, but please 

738
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,720
go ahead and do it. 
And this is also true with many 

739
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:18,560
PO CS which people want to do. 
You know, many accelerators 

740
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,240
which people are trying to 
build, they get very excited. 

741
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:23,640
Oh my God, I'm going to build 
this AI accelerator. 

742
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:25,840
And it is this. 
And once you go into deeper, 

743
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,880
like, I don't know how it is 
really going to be used by our 

744
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,800
customers because it has 
fundamental weaknesses, but the 

745
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:38,040
excitement of building that 
allows you to say, OK, let's 

746
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,520
let's fund it or let's allow 
them to do it. 

747
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,720
But sometimes I also say that I 
also want you to do some offer 

748
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:47,560
your time into this. 
Yeah, of course, because you're 

749
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,640
excited. 
Then let it be both ways 

750
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,480
interesting. 
And then as it moves, you want 

751
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,440
to keep checking if it's really 
a brilliant idea. 

752
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,280
If it is brilliant, you want to 
immediately bring it into your 

753
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,280
fold and say now I want to move 
forward. 

754
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,880
It has happened to us in Zebia 
all the time. 

755
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,040
You start with I don't know what
he's talking to. 

756
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:13,360
This is making sense. 
Let me show it to some of our 

757
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,120
customer. 
See the reaction while they are 

758
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,640
doing their hobby thing or what 
you didn't believe in. 

759
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:24,120
And then suddenly you realize 
aha moment, my God, this, this 

760
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:29,080
has to be just hyper accelerated
because this is huge value. 

761
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,760
Yeah. 
So this is where, you know, 

762
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,080
sometimes you are intuitive, 
sometimes you don't. 

763
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,480
You completely disagree. 
That's fair. 

764
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:38,960
But you say I'm moving forward 
with it. 

765
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,360
And sometimes it's purely for 
the motivational aspect, because

766
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,680
that is equally important. 
Yeah, I looked at a lot if. 

767
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,920
Your tech guys are motivated 
about something. 

768
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,640
It's worth spending that money. 
I mean, by the way, I don't want

769
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,200
to say that only for my 
engineers. 

770
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,840
If tomorrow my IT team wants to 
do something, I will have the 

771
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:01,800
same reaction to it. 
So I don't want to order other 

772
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,960
people function team. 
Hey, why not? 

773
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,440
So it's I always want to say 
this is not about only 

774
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,200
engineers, it's also about every
function in the organization. 

775
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,360
And is this your your default? 
Because I feel like if you and I

776
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,800
know each other better, if I've 
worked on things and I've 

777
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,240
delivered certain outcomes, you 
have a higher trust relationship

778
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:22,120
in that whatever I'm pitching is
going to have that same track 

779
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,200
record based on the person that 
you know and based on their 

780
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,080
track record. 
If I come in with a blank 

781
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:27,240
canvas, we don't know each 
other. 

782
00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:29,880
I don't have any political 
credit with you and I pitch an 

783
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,320
idea. 
Is your default to have that 

784
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,480
same analysis, excitement or 
business outcomes? 

785
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,440
Feel fast. 
All of that I have the same. 

786
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,040
I like that a lot. 
Yeah, so it doesn't matter who's

787
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:45,640
the person you, you just want 
to, you know, check it out. 

788
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,280
Nowadays, I also do one thing 
because quite a lot of our our 

789
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,240
guys are are reach out to me. 
Oh yeah, hey, we are. 

790
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:54,240
Building this, We are building 
this, yeah. 

791
00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:56,040
I mean, my number is available 
to everyone. 

792
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,000
So it's on WhatsApp or Teams and
and it becomes sometimes 

793
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,920
overwhelming to put your own 
mind. 

794
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:06,640
Then I say, OK, can you, So I 
call my team and say, hey, can 

795
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,040
you check with that guy? 
Because the excitement is high 

796
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,560
and I do did a very quick check 
in the flight looks like not a 

797
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,400
bad idea, but I don't know what 
it means. 

798
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:22,600
So I, I have now began to also 
ask other people do it, but I 9 

799
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,520
out of 10, I want to be involved
because this is where you have a

800
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,880
little bit of I don't know, I 
call it micromanagement, but I 

801
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:34,080
feel as if I relate with with 
great soft engineers who are 

802
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:38,680
excited about something more 
than many I see within my own 

803
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,000
team also. 
So I feel that I'm able to 

804
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,520
sometimes I, I get excited by 
the idea that there's a guy 

805
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:50,280
who's coming with this, but I, I
want to be as much involved as 

806
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,000
possible in those places. 
It's. 

807
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,680
Probably like interest and 
curiosity and background. 

808
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,320
And it is also I think the 
culture of our own company, I 

809
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,920
think our own company has grew 
through these. 

810
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,240
You know, we have been a bottom 
up firm and I have a feeling 

811
00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:10,560
that some of these as ACEO, it's
my job to keep an eye because 

812
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:16,520
innovations and the future 
revenue ideas will come from out

813
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:21,040
of nowhere any part of the world
rather than somebody thinking 

814
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:22,920
from from the top. 
It's not going to happen. 

815
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,000
And that I have appreciated in 
ZBR right from day one. 

816
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,760
So I'm not, I'm not going to 
miss that. 

817
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,200
I'm really wondering when I was 
responsible for product, I had 

818
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,040
certain people that would pitch 
ideas that I would think this is

819
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,200
not going to work and this is 
not going to work for XY and Z. 

820
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,880
But because it's a low risk, I'd
be like, OK, there's a learning 

821
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,240
opportunity for them, right? 
Either I am proven wrong or 

822
00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:47,440
indeed it's going to fail. 
And they learn from that not 

823
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,600
just from a product sense, but 
also from a technical sense 

824
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,000
within the team. 
Sometimes people could not agree

825
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,400
on a certain solution direction 
and we I'd be like, we'll let 

826
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,560
the person actually try and 
figure it out because that's the

827
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,120
best way to learn, right? 
Feel fast, but actually do it. 

828
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,480
Don't prevent someone from 
making their own learnings based

829
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,400
on your experience. 
The way they learn is to 

830
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,400
actually sometimes fall on your 
face. 

831
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:06,760
How do you handle those 
situations? 

832
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,800
Because a lot of stuff that 
comes to you is of a higher 

833
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,840
scale of magnitude, right? 
Which means failure can be more 

834
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,680
costly. 
But how do you view that? 

835
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,680
Do you still allow people to 
learn and fail from that 

836
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,800
perspective? 
Absolutely. 

837
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:28,000
My only only difference is I try
to to to cut that idea into 

838
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,520
iterations because what I don't 
want the whole idea of fail fast

839
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:37,120
is about iterative thinking. 
So I I almost asked them to 

840
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:40,920
iterate. 
What is the core of your thing 

841
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,320
that you want to build? 
Can I check if this is going to 

842
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,880
work? 
And you'll be surprised some of 

843
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:50,080
them the minute you go to the 
core that you have to 1st build 

844
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:51,680
this. 
Then if you want to build this 

845
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,680
idea, you have to 1st build the 
difficult part. 

846
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,880
Almost 50% of the people don't 
go deep there because the 

847
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,520
overall idea was exciting. 
Yeah. 

848
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,040
The minute you say no, I want to
handle the the most important 

849
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,720
and the complicated part first. 
Can you iterate on it? 

850
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,240
Almost 50% wins away. 
Oh, really? 

851
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:16,040
It's very surprising, you see. 
Yeah, they will talk for some 

852
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,720
time and then it will fizzle, 
fizzle out. 

853
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,240
And then there you have the rest
50% who are trying, and only 

854
00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:25,920
maybe one or two are the ones 
who say that. 

855
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,360
See, it's iteratively working 
on. 

856
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,120
One or two iterations have 
worked and then you have to 

857
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:32,480
make. 
A call, you have to build it up,

858
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,600
yeah. 
So that way you're also saving 

859
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,800
money for the company that 
you're not just saying, OK, I'm 

860
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,440
going to invest, but you're also
making sure the people with 

861
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,440
ideas are tested on ideas and 
tested on their own passion 

862
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,160
because you have to sometimes 
test the passion part. 

863
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,920
I have a final question and it 
mainly has to do with something 

864
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,600
you highlighted previously. 
Sometimes I explain this 

865
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,840
hierarchy of the organization 
that I'm in and people say it's 

866
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,320
quite flat, right? 
I have a manager, then I have 

867
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,480
their managers managing direct 
of an L, and then I have you 

868
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,360
basically, and I can send you a 
message on Teams or wherever. 

869
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,400
I have no clue because I've 
never done that, how fast you 

870
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,480
reply. 
But the fact that you say people

871
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,720
reach out to me and they have 
ideas, that means you're 

872
00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:15,920
accessible. 
That also means you can get 

873
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:17,920
swarmed, right? 
I have a podcast. 

874
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:19,440
People are approaching on 
LinkedIn, on Twitter. 

875
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,000
I already get overwhelmed by the
amount of people that reach out.

876
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:25,040
So then within a company, 
specifically the person that 

877
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,320
you, you are CEO, people will 
funnel towards you. 

878
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:29,760
How do you manage your time in 
general? 

879
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,400
You have very important stuff, 
customer stuff, things that make

880
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,520
the business run. 
You also have people that have 

881
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:36,680
excited ideas that you want to 
enable, that you want to 

882
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:38,960
highlight, experiment with a 
challenge. 

883
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,880
How do you manage all of that? 
Yeah, I think it does overwhelm 

884
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,840
me and I have to find a way, so 
I still haven't figured it out. 

885
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,280
I love that. 
You know, I still am passionate 

886
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,880
about people reaching out and 
giving ideas. 

887
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,800
Or sometimes they say, can you 
give me 30 minutes? 

888
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,080
So they're not giving idea. 
They say I have something to 

889
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:57,400
talk to you for They. 
Jump in a call. 

890
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:02,320
Right. 
So, but I do it and I know a 

891
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,040
time will come as I told you 
that on idea sometimes I'm 

892
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,880
forwarding to some of my directs
to say can you check it? 

893
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,360
But I always feel I'm missing 
that feeling is overwhelming, 

894
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,080
which also makes you restless. 
So I sometimes it's better to do

895
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,040
it yourself so at least 
restlessness won't be there. 

896
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,480
But as we are growing, I will 
have to figure out a way. 

897
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:25,840
Yeah, it's not scalable 
otherwise. 

898
00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:29,720
Yeah, it's not scalable. 
It's and I also don't want to 

899
00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:33,920
create hierarchies for it or go 
to that committee if you have an

900
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,200
idea, because then I know it I 
will kill all the good ideas. 

901
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:42,600
So I think as time moves moves 
by, I wonder if I should 

902
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,680
delegate more on the core 
business side and key continue 

903
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:53,920
to be focused here or should I 
delegate here and continue to 

904
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,320
focus on my core business which 
is more important? 

905
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,360
This is interesting. 
When my plate is full, I 

906
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,600
typically de prioritize the 
things that I actually don't 

907
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,760
enjoy, which I also don't think 
they are valuable. 

908
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,240
Like valuable things that I 
don't enjoy that I think are 

909
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:09,920
very important, I will still do.
Otherwise I can't do my job 

910
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:11,240
well. 
I can't just work on what I 

911
00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:13,440
think is important. 
But you are in a position to be 

912
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,040
like, no, I actually do want to 
focus on this because I think I 

913
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,640
add value here and this is what 
I can delegate to these people. 

914
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,360
Yes, I've never been in a 
position like that. 

915
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,840
I don't envy it because I want 
to do everything. 

916
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,680
I think a lot of things that are
fun I would like to do, we 

917
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,440
think, but time is finite, so 
then you have to make decisions.

918
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:29,960
Yeah, no, I have the same 
problem. 

919
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:35,160
I do have the problem of I 
haven't seen it, so I'm not 

920
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,360
comfortable. 
And that at some point of time 

921
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,560
has to reduce and it's a 
learning. 

922
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,360
I think it's a bit of a learning
journey for me. 

923
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:46,480
I think as we become bigger and 
bigger, I will be forced to 

924
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,800
think of an idea. 
Yeah, you might have to let go 

925
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:50,920
of something you really like 
doing. 

926
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:51,680
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

927
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:58,120
But I, I do feel that in the job
I am listening to ideas from 

928
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,120
people in different corners of 
the world might have a higher 

929
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,400
value than some of the general 
management running the business 

930
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:09,440
part, which I think is more 
easily delegatable. 

931
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,280
So that's my current way of 
thinking, but currently I'm 

932
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,680
managing. 
I don't. 

933
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,440
Thank you so much for coming on 
and sharing. 

934
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:20,800
Thank you so much this. 
Was a real joy. 

935
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,760
All right, off here. 
If you're still with us, let me 

936
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,720
know in the comments section 
what you thought of this episode

937
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:26,920
and we'll see you in the next 
one.