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Hey guys. 
Today on the show we have a good

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friend of mine started out as a 
software developer worked his 

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way up to CT 0 and now runs his 
own Tech startup and is CEO of 

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intent. 
Architect we talked about 

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everything that comes with that 
the hardships. 

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He faced and his journey so far 
ladies and gentlemen, Gareth 

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bars Beyond coding, a dive into 
the world of successful people 

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in IIT from your sponsors Z, 
Bia, creating digital leaders. 

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Here's your host, Patrick akhil.
Amen. 

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Patrick thanks for calling on. 
Thank you. 

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Yeah, this is gonna be awesome. 
It's gonna be fun for me. 

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Coming out of high school. 
I actually wrote in my yearbook,

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I'm going to be an entrepreneur,
I always knew that some point in

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my career, I want to start a 
business. 

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It's still holds true. 
Was that the same for you? 

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You know, the funny thing is 
that I think the first business 

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idea I had was probably when I 
was, I don't know, like six 

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years old. 
Yeah. 

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And I think that my idea was 
that I wanted to invent a 

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motorbike really that Ran on 
bovril. 

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Okay, I don't if, you know what 
bottle is, but in South Africa, 

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bottle is like, it's kind of 
like Marmite. 

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Yeah. 
You know, what mom might is, 

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Right. 
Nope. 

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Okay. 
So it's like a veggie extracts 

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kind of weird stuff. 
It's a spread for bread. 

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Yeah. 
The day and it's not marmalade. 

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It's like more like a salty. 
Spread. 

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You put the butter and you kind 
of. 

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So, anyway, I, I told my dad 
when I grow up, I want to invent

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a motorbike that runs a bottle 
because I've always my favorite 

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spread. 
Yeah. 

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So that's basically where it all
started. 

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My first business idea. 
Obviously, I realize how 

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ridiculous that is. 
It retrospect, hopefully pretty 

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soon. 
Well, yeah, maybe maybe one damn

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you after this Allah, I'll give 
it a go. 

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Exactly, that's the next one. 
That's the next business. 

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Yeah, cool man. 
So you started out as a software

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developer also had a role as a 
CTO. 

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Yes. 
Um how you started your own 

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business. 
How did that go? 

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Well okay. 
So you know, the truth is that 

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over the years I actually 
started a few businesses. 

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Okay. 
Most of them are just in the 

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graveyard. 
Most of them are Just like 

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really bad ideas in retrospect. 
Yeah. 

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And I see when I went through 
University as well. 

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I did computer, literally 
engineering. 

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And I really enjoyed the into 
the, you know, the climate 

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basically, like all the learning
and stuff, but I don't really 

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see myself, like, climbing the 
corporate ladder in the software

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World. 
It just sounded very Bland to go

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from Junior developer to 
intermediate developer, to 

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senior to architect. 
And, you know, that's the Holy 

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Grail. 
Yeah. 

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And so, when I actually left 
University, I thought to myself,

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well, you know, that's what I 
want to avoid that. 

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At. 
And so, the first job I got was 

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ultimately, as a, you know, I 
just took a kind of it. 

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Have an internship in a sense 
with a company that was doing 

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some kind of software, but they 
were like, look, let's just see 

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where you end up. 
Yep. 

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And quite naturally, so, they 
had like a, some kind of a 

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configuration system. 
It's almost it's similar to low 

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code in a weird way, like very, 
very old, very dirty stuff to be

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honest, but it was database 
configuration. 

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And I find myself just 
gravitating towards writing. 

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A lot of the Equal and, you 
know, that kind of stuff and 

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it's almost like the program. 
In me just started coming back 

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out again. 
Yeah. 

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And then before I knew it, I was
like okay cool. 

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After the after about a year 
there. 

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I thought to myself juice you 
know I could thrash these guys 

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because the software so 
terrible. 

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Yeah and that was my first 
business was called since nearly

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software. 
Okay? 

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And I said I'm going to 
basically do what these guys are

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doing but I'm registered bidder.
Yeah, okay, which is a the 23 24

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year old guy that seemed like a 
good idea. 

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And after about eight months of 
just blowing all my savings are 

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like just building a lot of 
stuff and doing a lot of 

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Research. 
I realized that, oh, you 

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actually your sales function to 
a business. 

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Exactly. 
So, I went out and I actually 

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tried to sell it and I got 
actually quite close like, scary

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close to actually selling what I
was doing. 

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I'm so glad that didn't go 
through, cause I probably would 

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have been in a lot of trouble 
because it was no way that I 

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could have delivered who's 
trying to sell and so, yeah, 

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that business ultimately, like 
went down and then I just 

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decided at that point. 
I was like, very clear to me 

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that actually software was my 
love. 

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Yeah, and that I just loved 
building stuff, but I had this 

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deep desire, which I think a lot
of Developers. 

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Do at some point in the life. 
I had this deep desire to to 

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essentially know what the right 
way to do it is. 

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Yeah. 
And so I went and I hunted 

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around South Africa and I said 
well you know, where's the most 

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prestigious consultancy /? 
You know, software house. 

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Yeah. 
But I could possibly join and I 

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ended up joining a company which
had really, really, really solid

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guys. 
And I was very lucky because all

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the projects that I had there, I
was there for about five years. 

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I ended up in management by the 
end. 

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And, you know, all the guys I 
got to work with over the years.

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Years, which is really, really 
super talented incredible guys, 

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very strong Architects. 
And I got introduced to a lot of

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the concepts and actually did a 
lot of training there that we've

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kind of built upon in the 
business that we feel today. 

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Nice? 
Yeah, yeah. 

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How so obviously you joined that
consultancy firm but I still 

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missing kind of the bridge. 
In starting your own company. 

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You join that 45 years. 
Climbed up the ranks also. 

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Yeah, so yeah. 
So basically, when I ended up 

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coming at the end of my career 
there, I was in management. 

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Yeah. 
And so, therefore I wasn't being

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as technical as I used to be. 
Yeah. 

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And I didn't realize it at the 
time, but I was actually really 

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unhappy. 
Okay. 

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But I'd come over very super, 
super challenging project. 

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Previously that like, would you 
be doing a lot of management 

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around many, many projects and 
stuff like that? 

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To enter, I do admit the 
co-founders to intent architect 

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at the time as well, but I was 
really unhappy and management. 

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And so that's when the 
opportunity as a CTO came about.

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Yeah. 
And in fact, we already decided 

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that we wanted to start this 
company at that point. 

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Okay? 
And so we're you could say that 

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we were side hustling. 
Yeah. 

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Towards the end of that part and
I was, when I joined the company

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as a CTO, we already actually 
had something going. 

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And essentially the story was 
that, that company had to the 

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Anywhere on the CTO. 
They had to do a lot of new 

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software development. 
Yeah and because of that there 

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was this opportunity where we 
could take this tuning that we 

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built, which we ultimately built
based on, you know, because of 

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the problems in the software 
industry that we had been 

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experiencing over the years that
we were working as Architects at

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the consultancy. 
Yeah. 

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And we took this and said, well 
look, you know, we can use this 

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and I checked with the other 
guys who in as part of Mexico 

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and I said, would you guys be 
interested in giving this ago 

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and they said sure it sounds 
great. 

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Yeah. 
And it absolutely Clearly 

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dominated. 
You know, we ended up rebuilding

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five years with a software and 
like six months, I sewed was 

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incredible. 
What we are able to achieve and,

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you know, everyone was just 
flying at the quality of the 

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system was so much better. 
And you know, the consistency 

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and the architectural structures
everything like that, there we 

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were building art was just, you 
know, it was incredible. 

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And I could, and I could sleep 
very well at night. 

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Even though I had, you know, 
quite ass, like, a bit of a 

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junior team. 
I could sleep very well at night

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because I knew exactly what the 
software look like. 

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Yeah. 
And so when we, you know this, 

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Progressed. 
I was there for about just over 

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two and a half years, I think it
was and before I told the guys 

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like, look, I'm going to be 
moving on to building this 

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company and they were very, very
supportive of that actually gave

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them an entire year to figure 
out what they wanted to do. 

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So as I guys, in one year's 
time, I'm going to be going full

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time. 
It's this business. 

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Exactly. 
And and they, I mean, they've 

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been basically a paying client 
from day one. 

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They have still with us there. 
Yeah it was your first client, 

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was our first client ultimately 
at the nice but you built it 

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then, let's say, as a side 
hustle, obviously you had a job.

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Yeah, get this more on the side.
Probably with the co-founders. 

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How many co-founders so were 
three co-founders all Engineers.

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So I mean, if we kind of, you 
know, wind the story basically 

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back to the beginning. 
So we were all basically civil 

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engineers working as architects 
in this consultancy there and we

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were managing you know quite a 
variety of different projects at

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the other day. 
And so what we were seeing was 

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that you know, I mean in terms 
of size you're dealing with, you

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know, I'm talking and ran tombs 
here. 

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So you'll have to do some 
division. 

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Yeah, that's it was like, you 
know, 30 million rent, you know,

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Ten Men Dev teams, two and a 
half. 

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Years with q&a's and Bas and 
project managers. 

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And everybody on these teams 
we're dealing with some really 

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large stuff all the way down to 
you know, four Man team, you 

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know, five months delivery you 
know, smaller stuff. 

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Yeah. 
And so what we ultimately 

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realize what's in the software 
industry there is essentially a 

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set of Trends. 
Yeah, that everybody is 

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experiencing and, you know, 
we've had an opportunity now in 

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the privilege, in a sense to 
have spoken to so many 

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developers and so many 
Architects that it's so clear to

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us how Universal these Enzo. 
Yeah and so when we analyze that

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and we looked at the situation, 
the first thing we realized was 

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that actually software 
development from the perspective

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of developers and the architect 
is actually a very repetitive 

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process. 
Yeah. 

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Okay. 
And it's not that let's just 

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forgiving sake. 
Say that and developers 

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typically don't repeat 
themselves but let's just for 

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argument's sake. 
Say that they never write the 

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same line of code twice yet. 
It's still very repetitive 

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because all of the tasks that 
they're doing even though to new

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use case is very similar to the 
previous use case because it 

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follows the architecture, 
follows the pets into the team 

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has agreed. 
Upon. 

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So in this we saw a huge amount 
of waste. 

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Yeah like a we estimated 
probably between 70 and 80% of 

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developers time is all of this 
like repetitiveness that's 

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surrounding the use case at the 
Toronto Chief. 

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So there was the one side of 
things that we realized. 

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The second thing that we realize
was you know when a tea when a 

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project starts you end up with a
certain velocity. 

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I mean this is to quote the 
agile guys. 

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Sure, you know, the velocity of 
the team starts to come out and 

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usually it's very very quick in 
the beginning. 

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So you know about the four month
mark That's when you really see 

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the team is started to chug. 
Yeah. 

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And Are you know, outputting use
cases pretty quickly and things 

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like that but you can come back 
and you can visit that team you 

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know a year and a half later. 
Yeah. 

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And they can be massively 
different results depending on 

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the project depending on the 
team. 

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I mean we have you know, spoken 
to people who are telling us 

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that you know back, you know, 
when they started their project,

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just two years ago, you know, 
they were going things that used

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to take them a day to do then 
and are taking them for 56 days 

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to do. 
It has point. 

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So there's deterioration in 
velocity is something that we 

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notice in the projects as well. 
Yeah. 

230
00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:54,800
Yeah, and it's almost like you 
can do a lot of teams with 

231
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,100
through discipline, through 
architecture, through certain 

232
00:09:57,100 --> 00:09:59,400
structures in the code bases and
things like that. 

233
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,300
They are able to Stave off this 
deterioration by almost taking a

234
00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:05,100
velocity hit in the short term. 
Yeah. 

235
00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,300
And you know, there's a lot of 
documentation that Martin Fowler

236
00:10:08,300 --> 00:10:11,300
has backed this up. 
So when we analyze it we thought

237
00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:12,800
to ourselves. 
Well, what is causing this 

238
00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,800
deterioration of the software 
and, you know, the first thing 

239
00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,000
that Kmart was and was so very 
clear was technical bit. 

240
00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:20,500
Yeah. 
Okay. 

241
00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:22,200
Now everyone knows what 
technical debt. 

242
00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:26,600
Very well documented, but what 
we noticed more than anything in

243
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,400
software is that technical data 
something that just seems to be 

244
00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:30,400
growing. 
Exactly. 

245
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,700
So it's continuously growing in 
the system. 

246
00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:34,500
And so the agile guys are 
telling you, we'll look, you 

247
00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:37,200
know, for every single Sprint. 
We highly recommend that you 

248
00:10:37,208 --> 00:10:38,700
bring the technical data in. 
Yeah. 

249
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,600
Okay. 
And we recommend that to, I 

250
00:10:40,608 --> 00:10:43,300
mean, that's a, you know, that's
the only way to actually to 

251
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,000
avoid I from the coming out of 
control, but exactly the thing 

252
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,900
is that in a lot of ways, when 
you look at it really, as 

253
00:10:47,900 --> 00:10:50,800
developers, what we're doing is 
trying to stop the bleeding from

254
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,700
getting out of control but it Is
still growing in the system 

255
00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:55,000
sets. 
The first thing is has this 

256
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,900
technical data. 
Steer it's growing and storing 

257
00:10:56,900 --> 00:10:59,900
to compound in the system. 
The second thing we notice is 

258
00:10:59,900 --> 00:11:02,400
that there's lots of 
inconsistency and start to 

259
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,400
develop in a code base. 
It's like the entropy, it's a 

260
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:05,900
form of technical debt. 
Yeah. 

261
00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:08,300
And the thing about 
inconsistency, in the way, 

262
00:11:08,300 --> 00:11:10,600
people who think, in the within 
the way guys are doing things, 

263
00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,100
you don't like in how each case,
it use cases implemented. 

264
00:11:13,100 --> 00:11:15,100
This always just little 
inconsistencies that are coming 

265
00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:16,500
through and it's not really 
anyone's fault. 

266
00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:20,200
Sure, the first thing is that 
like, everybody on the team 

267
00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,300
doesn't understand architecture.
Exactly. 

268
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,100
Exact. 
It's impossible for them to the 

269
00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:26,800
different human beings, but, you
know, let's just say that on 

270
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,400
average. 
It's there's an overlap of a 

271
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,100
certain word. 
There's always going to be 

272
00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:32,200
someone who doesn't want 
everybody on the team, who just 

273
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,300
has some little bit of a 
different view of how things are

274
00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:35,000
done. 
Yeah. 

275
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,900
So that's the first sign of it. 
The second is that this 

276
00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:38,700
different skill levels, I mean, 
that's just, you know, there's 

277
00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:41,600
different experience levels, you
know, to the developers and 

278
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,800
then, of course, you know, 
besides the fact that maybe 

279
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,700
they've got different styles 
even you know, the team can also

280
00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:49,200
realize that there's better ways
to do things, you know. 

281
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,300
But then it's very expensive to 
go back and fix it. 

282
00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:53,900
Also, you just like what Well, 
and so does if you extrapolate 

283
00:11:53,900 --> 00:11:56,700
this problem with kind of 
compounds as well in the system.

284
00:11:56,700 --> 00:11:58,400
So you always have the gold 
versus new. 

285
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,500
Exactly, exactly. 
So you got those technical debt 

286
00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:04,100
compounding, you've got this 
inconsistency compounding. 

287
00:12:04,100 --> 00:12:05,200
Yeah. 
And the other thing that we 

288
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,000
realized was that there's an 
architectural rigidity, okay. 

289
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,700
Suppose a certain threshold 
making certain architectural 

290
00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:14,100
changes in the software is very,
very hard. 

291
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,500
Yeah. 
And, you know, probably one of 

292
00:12:16,508 --> 00:12:19,800
the biggest examples of the so 
like a team when they build a 

293
00:12:19,808 --> 00:12:20,800
piece of software. 
Yeah. 

294
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,200
If they know what they're doing,
they It's a non-functional 

295
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,000
requirements and they'll say, 
well, you know, I think that 

296
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,500
this architecture is going to 
work for us. 

297
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,400
Exactly, but those non 
functional requirements, can 

298
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,600
shift the security requirements,
can shift hosting requirements, 

299
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,600
can shift certain even like, you
know, performance requirements 

300
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,500
and things like that. 
Availability requirements can 

301
00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:39,200
shift. 
And so what ends up happening, 

302
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,100
if you think about it, is that 
then the architecture doesn't 

303
00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:44,500
necessarily support those 
non-functional requirements. 

304
00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:47,200
Yeah, and a great example of 
this is actually the move to 

305
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:48,100
Cloud. 
Yep. 

306
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,400
Okay. 
Because Cloud, if you think 

307
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,800
about how many systems will 
architected For on-prem hosting.

308
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,900
Now I have to be re-written. 
So this architecture rigidity is

309
00:12:56,900 --> 00:12:58,700
so huge. 
I mean, this is a big example. 

310
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:00,100
Yeah. 
You know, that when Clark came 

311
00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:01,900
along, it's literally still 
causing. 

312
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,900
I mean, the number of companies 
we talked to the Discerning well

313
00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:05,400
right now. 
We re modernizing, we want to be

314
00:13:05,408 --> 00:13:07,500
cloud cloud enabled. 
Exactly. 

315
00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:10,000
And so they're basically means 
we're rewriting our types of 

316
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:10,900
software. 
Yeah. 

317
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,200
You know for the cloud. 
So that was the next thing is 

318
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,500
this architect rigidities. 
A huge Force as well. 

319
00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:17,600
And the sad thing is this really
bothered us? 

320
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,000
Is that this applies to 
Technologies to so you build 

321
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,500
today A on a set of Technologies
which may be obsolete. 

322
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:27,900
Exactly. 
And so, you know in a few years 

323
00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:31,900
time it's just not the latest 
one and developers always want 

324
00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:33,200
to work on the latest 
technology. 

325
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,500
Number one, they want to 
Leverage What the technology 

326
00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:36,300
offers. 
Exactly. 

327
00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:38,600
Okay, even though from a 
business perspective, you like 

328
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,700
look at that wouldn't make the 
business, a much better business

329
00:13:40,700 --> 00:13:42,600
at the first day, but developers
want to do that. 

330
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,100
So it starts to component to 
Alma's a human resourcing issue 

331
00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:48,600
because you can't keep good 
developers if you're not giving 

332
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,300
them what they want the day. 
So this is another problem. 

333
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:54,500
And so if you look at The big 
picture of basically you could 

334
00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:55,900
look think of it. 
Like the painting that we've 

335
00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:59,100
basically painted at this meal 
is that this is what we think of

336
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:03,200
as the tendency towards Legacy. 
So you know, the academics will 

337
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,600
tell you all the second, you 
write a line of code its Legacy 

338
00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:08,700
but developers don't see it. 
Like that developers think to 

339
00:14:08,708 --> 00:14:10,300
themselves. 
This is not a legacy system. 

340
00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:11,600
It's still fresh. 
Okay. 

341
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,600
But then they've got this funny 
thing and it is no, you can't 

342
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,700
say, well, it's two years old, 
if it's Legacy words, 10 years, 

343
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:18,200
all different Legacy. 
So really it's a feeling that 

344
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,300
developers have in, it's usually
because the technical debt is 

345
00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:24,100
getting out of control. 
Is very inconsistent, very hard 

346
00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:26,300
to maintain making changes is 
difficult. 

347
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,200
There's certain may be 
non-functional requirements that

348
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,700
have shifted and we call makers 
architectural changes. 

349
00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:33,200
So, we're having to, like, 
Hackett adding to the technical 

350
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,800
did get around this problem. 
We're also stuck on all 

351
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,000
Technologies and so this is kind
of and this is actually the fate

352
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,400
of almost all software which is 
very said and it's almost like 

353
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,500
something that the whole 
industry just ignores and in 

354
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:45,700
fact I think some people thrive 
in it they're like well this is 

355
00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:47,100
good news. 
We're going to be doing a 

356
00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:49,900
rewrite every few years Cedar. 
So and you know developers does 

357
00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:52,100
love having that blank slate 
because of course were never 

358
00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:53,900
going to To make the same 
mistakes we made last time which

359
00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:55,700
is probably true. 
Just going to make a whole new 

360
00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:58,400
set of mistakes, so that's 
typically how it goes. 

361
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:03,200
And the final thing that we 
picked up is that the there's no

362
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,300
blueprint, is no blueprint to 
the systems that we building. 

363
00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:08,300
Yeah. 
And it's, you know, a lot of 

364
00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:10,400
ways and I, you know, we were 
talking about this the other 

365
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,000
day, you know, in a lot of ways,
it's like a new Joiner comes to 

366
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,600
a project and it's they have to 
basically walk into some walking

367
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,700
into Skyscraper, no and the dev 
team system while, you know, the

368
00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:23,600
blueprint around, you know, The 
only way from to really know 

369
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,700
what the design of this app is 
is he's got to go break into the

370
00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:26,700
walls. 
Exactly check. 

371
00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:29,100
Okay, so the plumbing went 
through, there goes the ceiling 

372
00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:31,600
electrical cables down there and
then of course you go to the 

373
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,600
second floor and it's 
inconsistent different. 

374
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:34,600
They did it differently. 
Here. 

375
00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:36,800
Third floor different and so 
it's really hard. 

376
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,400
You might get an outdated 
blueprint. 

377
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,300
Exactly. 
And any company that gives you a

378
00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:43,200
piece of document, well, you 
know, sometimes firstly, it's 

379
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,600
very expensive for developers to
make documentation. 

380
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,200
Yeah. 
You know, they can spend almost 

381
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,300
longer building the document 
than is coding it sometimes, so 

382
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:52,300
that document can be really 
expensive. 

383
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:53,600
Civ. 
And then the second thing is 

384
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,400
that, if it doesn't reflect the 
underlying code, it's worthless.

385
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:57,200
Exactly. 
Okay. 

386
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,200
Because now you're looking at a 
blueprint, that's not true. 

387
00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:02,600
So that's, you know, and of 
course, update documents is also

388
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,200
incredibly expensive more 
expensive than updating code. 

389
00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:08,800
So I mean, this was essentially 
where intent architect started. 

390
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,100
This is essentially where the 
problem space that we found 

391
00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:14,000
ourselves in. 
And we said to ourselves, well, 

392
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,700
you know, we need to solve this 
and we looked around. 

393
00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:18,300
We saw the low code guys were 
there you know they may indexes 

394
00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:21,400
that are systems that are piensa
sales forces that you know there

395
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,300
aren't but Is that software 
isn't a cookie cutter? 

396
00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:28,600
Mold, you know, it's not like 
you can't not all software 

397
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,000
follows the cookie cutter. 
Yeah. 

398
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,600
And they are offering a cookie 
cutter solution, so if you're 

399
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,200
doing what they support, you are
the happiest guy, exert a 

400
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,300
second, you want to step out of 
that or you want to control the 

401
00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:38,800
underlying architecture. 
You've got a funny 

402
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,500
non-functional requirement. 
That you have to handle. 

403
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,700
You can't do it. 
Yeah, so we saw that. 

404
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:44,400
And we saw all the different 
ways that guys are trying to 

405
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,400
handle these things. 
And, you know, where all the 

406
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,100
different patterns and DDD and 
microservices, and where there's

407
00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:51,900
all fit in, but nothing was 
really ultimately solving the 

408
00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:54,800
Mental issue. 
So when we boiled it down, we 

409
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,800
actually realize that at the 
center of it all is an is an 

410
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,500
issue that is also Catalyst to 
everything. 

411
00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:02,500
And ironically it's code. 
Yeah. 

412
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,300
Okay. 
That's the ironic thing. 

413
00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:06,599
And developers, always look at 
us when we tell them this and 

414
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:07,800
they're like, what do you mean 
it's cold? 

415
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,000
It's like, no, no code is 
beautiful. 

416
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,099
We love coach. 
Okay, don't get us wrong. 

417
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,900
We love coat. 
It's just how much code. 

418
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,200
Yeah, we have to deal with. 
Okay, and we call this the 

419
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,500
weight of code at the end of the
day. 

420
00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:19,700
So because it's like, it's got a
weight to it. 

421
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,000
Yeah. 
And you could think of it like 

422
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,200
sand in a way And where's 
developers basically have a 

423
00:17:24,208 --> 00:17:26,099
shovel. 
So you just end up with these 

424
00:17:26,099 --> 00:17:28,500
mountains and mountains of sand 
all over the place and all 

425
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:30,100
you've got is a shovel to hands 
in a keyboard. 

426
00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:34,000
That's really your tool. 
And so this weight of code is 

427
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,300
actually causing a lot of these 
issues. 

428
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:36,600
So think back to the technical 
debt. 

429
00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:40,900
Why does technical debt exists? 
Yeah, well it's because you 

430
00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:43,700
know, there's too many lines of 
code that we have to change in 

431
00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:44,600
order to get rid of that, you 
know. 

432
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,500
Correct. 
The design get was a hack and 

433
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:48,700
give her the technical debt at 
some point during your 

434
00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:52,500
complexity increases such a 
point that it just gets a whole 

435
00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:55,200
operation exactly change it. 
Exactly exactly. 

436
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:57,400
I mean, it's a certain 
consistency too many lines of 

437
00:17:57,408 --> 00:17:58,300
code. 
Yeah. 

438
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:02,500
Change that in order to get the 
system to consistency that, you 

439
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:03,800
know, to upgrade this 
technology. 

440
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,400
We've got too many lines of code
against this API, the next 

441
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,800
version of the API breaking 
changes, we would have to 

442
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,800
change, you know, 10,000 lines 
of code. 

443
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,100
It's going to take us the team's
going to take them three months 

444
00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:15,500
or six months or whatever the 
time is now and the business. 

445
00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:17,000
Like, I'm sorry. 
We can't afford it. 

446
00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:18,200
Exactly. 
You know, even though the 

447
00:18:18,208 --> 00:18:20,700
developers want to do that, the 
business would love to do that. 

448
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:23,900
Yeah, but no one can afford six.
Yeah, okay, so that's really 

449
00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:25,400
where. 
If you look at it, it's the 

450
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,500
fundamental. 
If yours are opinion as a 

451
00:18:27,508 --> 00:18:29,500
company, we have analyzed. 
We think that there's 

452
00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,600
essentially two problems in 
software to fundamental problems

453
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:33,400
in software. 
Yeah. 

454
00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:35,200
And the first is weight of code,
okay? 

455
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,100
Which is almost like your 
inadvertent complexity, okay? 

456
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,200
And actual complexity, okay? 
So complexity of the system is 

457
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,600
like what are non-functional 
requirements. 

458
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:44,900
One of the functional 
requirements, that kind of 

459
00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:47,300
stuff. 
Yeah, so between those two and 

460
00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:50,300
you could map every single thing
in the software industry are 

461
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:52,000
trying to handle one of those 
two things. 

462
00:18:52,300 --> 00:18:54,000
You know, what is microservices 
trying to do? 

463
00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:56,800
Microservices, simply trust 
trying to handle weight of code.

464
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,200
That's it that's all is trying 
to do because it's definitely 

465
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,000
complexity. 
Exert, taking your complex 

466
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,600
problem and turning it to 
disturb its complex. 

467
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,700
Exactly. 
So I mean and you know, I'm a 

468
00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:07,900
huge fan of microservices, okay?
At the end of the day because it

469
00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:10,500
does force a certain way of 
thinking which is actually quite

470
00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:13,000
powerful. 
But at the end of the day, it's 

471
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,100
you know, D D. 
D is all into complexity 

472
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:19,400
handling and it does do some 
little weight of coat because 

473
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,200
obviously the sit any kind of 
separation of concerns in a kind

474
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,500
of Are coupling is good for 
weight of code. 

475
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,400
Yeah, you know, because then you
change less to get certain 

476
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,600
changes in and that's the key 
circling back then to yes, yeah,

477
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:34,600
yeah. 
So coming back to intend 

478
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,100
architect. 
This is essentially what we 

479
00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:38,100
decided we were going to do is 
we were like we're going to 

480
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:39,900
tackle this problem space. 
Yeah. 

481
00:19:40,100 --> 00:19:43,300
And so when we you know, myself 
and the co-founders we said well

482
00:19:43,300 --> 00:19:45,400
let's you know let's build a 
company that's going to solve 

483
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,000
this the way that we did that 
was we said to ourselves. 

484
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,200
Well you know let's imagine a 
world of software. 

485
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:55,000
We're div. 
Yeah, from the perspective of a 

486
00:19:55,008 --> 00:19:57,900
developer, as an ideal world. 
Like, how would it look in an 

487
00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,600
Ideal World? 
And we came up with a few set of

488
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,400
ideals or principles, okay? 
And the first one was what we 

489
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,200
called code weightlessness, 
okay? 

490
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,400
So the inverse of code weight of
code exactly. 

491
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,900
And code weightlessness. 
You know, in the most, Layman's 

492
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:14,100
definition is basically the 
ability for developers to be 

493
00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:18,100
able to change 10,000 lines of 
code as easily as just changing 

494
00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:18,800
tin. 
Yeah. 

495
00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:20,400
Okay. 
So that's code weightlessness. 

496
00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:25,300
The second ideal that we see Was
really that you should have what

497
00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:28,000
we think of as a Agile. 
Auto, not an agile architecture,

498
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,000
free architecture agile 
architectural. 

499
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,600
Get to that second butter free 
architecture because whenever 

500
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,700
you come up with an architecture
as a team, you come up with some

501
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:39,000
kind of a you know a structure 
that you believe is going to 

502
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,200
meet the non-functional 
requirements of their project. 

503
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,600
Yeah and at that point onwards 
it is actually a lot of work 

504
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,400
that goes into every single use 
case to put that architecture in

505
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,000
place. 
Sure and this is what we 

506
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,500
estimate to be around, you know.
So if you see on the backend 

507
00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:54,400
you're probably looking at 
Durant, you know 70 to 80% off 

508
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,100
the work. 
Okay, maybe more. 

509
00:20:56,100 --> 00:20:57,300
Depending on the project. 
Sure. 

510
00:20:57,300 --> 00:20:59,000
It can be a hell of a lot of 
work. 

511
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,700
Depending on how much complexity
you trying to handle the clay 

512
00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:02,800
do. 
So that's basically the big 

513
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,000
thing is that I kill you. 
If you got accomplished project,

514
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,000
you tin would tend to have a 
complex architecture. 

515
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:07,700
Yeah. 
Okay. 

516
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,300
And so, you know, having this 
free architecture was an ideal 

517
00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:14,000
for us because once you know 
what it is, surely, you 

518
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,500
shouldn't have to pay for every 
single time. 

519
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,600
Now, of course, paying for a new
use cases is expensive, but 

520
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,500
actually shifting and 
architecture as use cases need 

521
00:21:21,500 --> 00:21:23,700
to change here. 
Is five times, more expensive 

522
00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:26,400
Foundation. 
Yeah, it's just changing code, 

523
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,900
is so much harder. 
I'll so yeah. 

524
00:21:28,900 --> 00:21:30,800
So that was the second ideal. 
The third ideal? 

525
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,500
We set out once this idea of 
having this agile architecture. 

526
00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:35,800
So sure, you've got your free 
architecture now, but an agile 

527
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,000
architectures, the idea that 
should something changed later, 

528
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,300
we realize a better way to do 
things. 

529
00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:41,600
They're not a function, 
requirements shift. 

530
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,100
We need to bring in a 
cross-cutting concerns, 

531
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:45,800
something like that. 
Should we have that? 

532
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,100
We should be able to make that 
change in the system, regardless

533
00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:51,800
of how old that system is. 
So that system could be five 

534
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,600
years old. 
It could be thousands of use 

535
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,300
cases could be a massive system 
and you know, successful systems

536
00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:57,800
do tend to give large. 
Yeah. 

537
00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:00,300
Because you do tend to enhance 
them and add Lots, not to 

538
00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:01,200
Features. 
Exactly. 

539
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,700
And you know, while you're 
adding features in a linear 

540
00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:04,200
sense, they're all 
interconnected so your 

541
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:05,900
complexity skyrocketing. 
Yeah. 

542
00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:09,100
So ultimately, that was the next
one is to say, well, you must be

543
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:10,900
able to change things for free, 
and then we said, well, take 

544
00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:13,100
that one step further, you know,
you should be able to 

545
00:22:13,108 --> 00:22:14,900
extrapolate and say, well, then 
that should be applied to 

546
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:17,800
Technologies to. 
Yeah, we should be able to stay 

547
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,700
on the cusp of the latest 
Technologies. 

548
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:22,100
That's an ideal as a software 
developer. 

549
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,200
I want to be able to stay up to 
date. 

550
00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:26,800
Yep. 
And that's essentially what we 

551
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:30,000
decided from our deals 
perspective to build a company 

552
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,500
on the one loss. 
When I just wanted to mention is

553
00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:35,900
that we also said that a system 
should be self-documenting. 

554
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,900
Okay. 
And what that means is that you 

555
00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:39,500
should have a blueprint for the 
system. 

556
00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:40,900
Yeah. 
But the key is that that 

557
00:22:40,900 --> 00:22:43,000
blueprint must be true. 
Exactly. 

558
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,900
The underlying code is always 
reflect the truth, the truth, if

559
00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:49,500
it doesn't, it's worthless. 
So at least a contract level 

560
00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:52,100
because I mean, if you think 
about a blueprint, that's what 

561
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,400
But it's a contract for what you
want your system to be about. 

562
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,800
You know, the fact that you just
say like you know wall from here

563
00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,900
to here red brick, there's 
Plumbing configuration that 

564
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:02,100
electron configuration, you 
know, and in the guys go and 

565
00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:04,500
build it. 
So ultimately, you want to know 

566
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:06,900
that if I've got this line here 
that that is the truth almost 

567
00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:09,200
like in the code base. 
So that's essentially the ideals

568
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,900
that we sent out. 
And then, you know, we built a 

569
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:13,600
lot of the system, we built a 
lot of this originally for 

570
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,000
ourselves. 
That's the truth is that we said

571
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,700
well there's must be a tool for 
us. 

572
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,300
We built a fair amount of it, 
you know, up to a point where 

573
00:23:21,308 --> 00:23:23,900
it's like a That used to run, 
but a lot of the principles were

574
00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:27,500
in place and anoxic, oh, we had 
this. 

575
00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:29,700
And this is where I did the CTO 
role. 

576
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,700
We ultimately brought this in 
and this is where we were able 

577
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:34,300
to leverage this part. 
So, because of the code 

578
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:36,600
weightlessness and because of 
the free architecture will just 

579
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,100
saved huge amount of time exact.
Hey, we were able to fly and 

580
00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:42,400
also we have the quality because
everything was perfectly 

581
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,500
consistent. 
We also had These Blueprints 

582
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:47,600
because now we could see the 
systems and that made it very 

583
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,500
easy for us to reason about what
the changes should be for the 

584
00:23:50,508 --> 00:23:52,900
next feature because I mean, The
biggest problem. 

585
00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:55,500
Sometimes you sit in a room with
two old fellow developers are 

586
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:57,100
not everyone's on the same page.
Exactly. 

587
00:23:57,100 --> 00:23:59,000
And then you set the arguing 
about something you like, I'll 

588
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,300
show you in the code base. 
Often spent, you do, you know 

589
00:24:02,300 --> 00:24:03,800
that that argument happens all 
the time? 

590
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,600
So I mean, yeah. 
Just to tide back, you know, 

591
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,900
kind of like a long-winded way 
of how we got to this company. 

592
00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:10,100
Yes. 
Yeah, but ultimately, we, you 

593
00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:13,400
know, when when we saw the 
success that we had, you know, 

594
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,400
at this at this company was the 
CTO. 

595
00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:18,200
You know, I said this thing's 
got legs. 

596
00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:20,800
Yeah. 
And, you know, we did a little 

597
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,500
bit of a push out too. 
You know, just people that we 

598
00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:25,100
knew and we said, hey guys, 
we've got this thing. 

599
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:28,400
I mean, it was still, you know, 
version 0.8 or something at the 

600
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,300
time, you know? 
And we actually ended up 

601
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,300
catching the tension of this 
this individual who was on a 

602
00:24:36,308 --> 00:24:37,700
project at one of the bank's. 
Yeah. 

603
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:40,600
And he chatted to the guys at 
the bank and they were a little 

604
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,300
bit of trouble and they said, 
well, you know, there's tool 

605
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:45,100
could actually help us in the 
space. 

606
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,100
Yeah. 
And so they brought it in and 

607
00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:48,900
they were able to get what they 
wanted at the end of the day. 

608
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:50,400
So they've been a client of 
ours, you know. 

609
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,800
So those those fines or to the 
One, exactly. 

610
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,700
So, the funny thing is that I 
remember when I decided to leave

611
00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:59,100
the company and go full time 
into this business. 

612
00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:02,900
I had this idea that we were 
just going to hit the ground 

613
00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:03,500
running. 
Yeah. 

614
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,700
Okay. 
And I think of anything I've 

615
00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:07,200
learned building. 
This business is that you've got

616
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,800
to keep a fridge jam-packed 
with, you know, ready and 

617
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,500
stocked with Humble Pie. 
Exactly. 

618
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:14,800
Because you're going to have to 
get that apple pie Arts. 

619
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,000
You can have to cut yourself a, 
slice it up and you're gonna 

620
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,500
have to eat it all the time. 
There's never going to be a day 

621
00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:21,200
where it's just going to like 
all like things can start 

622
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,600
falling into place. 
Moment. 

623
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,800
You get excited about it. 
Just wait, you're gonna have to 

624
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,600
get that humble pop fridge. 
You're going to eat it. 

625
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:30,300
Yep, so that was, you know, when
we decided to go to market 

626
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:33,100
straight afterwards I went and I
set up lots of meetings and I 

627
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,000
basically went through my 
network and we got no one. 

628
00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:40,100
Yeah. 
Not a single client out of that 

629
00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:43,400
and I mean that was such a blow 
think that's a punch in the gut,

630
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,600
such a punch in the gut. 
And I think it's really because,

631
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,400
you know, being so new to 
business you don't realize how 

632
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,000
hard it. 
It's like there's not you don't 

633
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,500
walk out into the business. 
World and just start selling the

634
00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:55,600
exact, you know, especially if 
you've got something that's 

635
00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:58,400
unique, you know, like I was 
like, well, we haven't heard of 

636
00:25:58,400 --> 00:25:59,400
you guys. 
That's the first problem. 

637
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,300
And there's a technical 
complexity there as well because

638
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:03,400
people need to understand it 
before they can actually put it 

639
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,300
to practice. 
Yeah, big topics. 

640
00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:07,100
Exactly. 
I mean, we had no idea how to 

641
00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:11,000
explain this this product 
probably up until the end of 

642
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,600
last year. 
Yeah, you know, we were just 

643
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,100
explaining it in every way we 
could think of and it just 

644
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:17,500
wasn't hitting home. 
Yeah. 

645
00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:20,400
And so it took us a long time to
actually figure out you know if 

646
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,400
we have a conversation with a 
company How to actually explain 

647
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,700
what this tool does and how it 
can help your company at the 

648
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:27,300
other day. 
Yeah, that's something you need 

649
00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:29,900
to hold and probably and you 
need to make it razor-sharp. 

650
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:31,800
Yeah, yeah. 
Now like I said, man, it's just 

651
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,200
been. 
It's I think one of the biggest 

652
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,300
challenges has been trying to 
figure out how to commercialize,

653
00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:40,600
something that you don't. 
I mean, if you say like who are 

654
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,300
the competitors to intense 
architecture? 

655
00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:43,500
Like, that's a bit of a hard 
one. 

656
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,500
Okay. 
Because no one's really in the 

657
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:46,700
same space. 
Is US sure? 

658
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:48,800
I think that the low code guys, 
you could say, oh no, are you 

659
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,300
guys a local? 
We're not a local platform. 

660
00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:53,200
Yeah, we're 100% code platform. 
Before we get into that. 

661
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,500
Yeah. 
You know, I know but we haven't 

662
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:57,700
really laid out on what it 
actually does. 

663
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,300
Yeah. 
You've laid out the problems. 

664
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:00,700
Yes. 
Yeah. 

665
00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:03,800
Okay yes, we're getting two 
competitors. 

666
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,700
Yeah, sure. 
Okay, so I mean, just to give an

667
00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:08,800
idea of what intent architect 
is. 

668
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:09,700
Yeah. 
The day. 

669
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,400
So it's, it's a software tool 
for developers and for 

670
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:14,800
Architects. 
But I think that there's a few 

671
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,500
things that are worth just 
knowing about the first is it's 

672
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:22,400
not a local platform, okay? 
So so it's also not That 

673
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,100
introduces runtime dependencies 
or it's not a framework the 

674
00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:28,600
other day. 
So, in a lot of ways, it's not 

675
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,500
something you build on top of. 
So you don't build on top of 

676
00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:34,100
intense architect, you build 
with intent architect? 

677
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:34,700
Yeah. 
Okay. 

678
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,800
You know, so an example would 
be, if we go back to our 

679
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,100
developer analogy of developers 
having shovels. 

680
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:43,400
Yeah, it's like you go from a 
shovel to having a tlb and, you 

681
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,500
know, one of those tractors that
can pick stuff up and exactly. 

682
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:47,500
It's got like drills and 
electrical and, you know, stuff 

683
00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:49,300
like that. 
So, you've got automated tools, 

684
00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:50,800
okay? 
That just do the work for you. 

685
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:53,700
So that's really the thing. 
King, and a lot of ways that, 

686
00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:56,900
you know, we explain it to 
developers is that the at the 

687
00:27:56,900 --> 00:27:58,000
footprint. 
Okay. 

688
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,200
If you want to think about it, 
like the footprint often tent? 

689
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,800
Architect is the same as an IDE.
Yeah. 

690
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,400
Okay. 
So if you think about what an 

691
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,600
IDE is it something that's 
installed on the local machine. 

692
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,900
It manages the code base. 
So the files that make up the 

693
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:12,800
code base and it can do, you 
know, some pretty Advanced 

694
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,700
Management. 
So for example, you could rename

695
00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:17,200
a method in your loving sister 
and then it'll rain, if that 

696
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,700
method is called in 20 files, it
would go to update all those 20 

697
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:21,400
files for you. 
Okay so that's amazing. 

698
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,200
I mean that you otherwise I have
to go run through each and every

699
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,700
single file. 
Yeah, so intense. 

700
00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:27,100
Architect at the same kind of 
footprint in the sense that its 

701
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:29,700
installed on the local machine 
and it manages the underlying 

702
00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:33,300
code base alongside the IDE but 
it's not a replacement for an 

703
00:28:33,300 --> 00:28:35,400
IDE, okay? 
So that's key so that the guys 

704
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,200
want to hold on so you're saying
it's an idea it's like no it's 

705
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,700
not easy. 
It's not a replacement for us. 

706
00:28:38,708 --> 00:28:41,400
Yeah, it's impossible. 
It's something exactly. 

707
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,700
It's basically the developer is 
going to be continuing coding 

708
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,800
using the IDE which is where 
you'll spin still the majority 

709
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,900
of his time. 
But intent architect is where he

710
00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:52,200
is designing. 
Okay, okay, so he designed And 

711
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,900
his blueprint ill intent 
architect and the two of those 

712
00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:58,800
tools together in a way and we 
use quite fancy mechanisms at 

713
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,900
the end of the day. 
It will, I mean, one of the 

714
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:03,600
things we do is we call 
ourselves a next-generation code

715
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:04,800
automation platform. 
Sure. 

716
00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:07,200
And and the reason for that is 
because yes, we are managing 

717
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,300
code and we are doing automated 
code generation which is 

718
00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:11,600
something that has been around 
for eons. 

719
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,200
Yeah but we're doing it in a 
completely unique way so that 

720
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,900
the developer and automation 
tool can actually coexist. 

721
00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:18,300
Yeah. 
Okay. 

722
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:21,200
And that's I think that's really
probably what makes it practical

723
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,800
at the other day and it's Being 
one of the major reasons why 

724
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,500
we've had so much success. 
Yeah, up until this point. 

725
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,900
Cool. 
So let's put it in a you can use

726
00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:32,100
case, I want to design something
that stores a user in a data 

727
00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:33,900
base. 
Do I first go to intend, 

728
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:38,500
architect model, my business 
domains and then go into my ID 

729
00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:40,800
or how would I put it to 
practice? 

730
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:43,300
Yeah so I mean if you think 
about it traditionally what guys

731
00:29:43,300 --> 00:29:45,500
would do is the first thing they
would do is let's say and you 

732
00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:48,800
use case came along, okay the 
team or at least like the more 

733
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,000
senior guys in the team probably
would go into a white border. 

734
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:53,500
Room and they would start 
whiteboarding. 

735
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,900
So there's a cool, we've got 
these entities or lay them out 

736
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:58,000
to the Whiteboard, they'll draw 
relationships between them, 

737
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,500
they'll say, well, this gets 
this is what gets persisted. 

738
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:01,800
This is what we're going to 
have. 

739
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,100
These are the services we 
probably need to set up. 

740
00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:06,400
Maybe this is the front end, 
maybe we're in a micro service 

741
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:07,800
architecture. 
So these are the events that 

742
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,800
will publish and they kind of 
lay all of that art. 

743
00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:11,300
Yeah. 
And then they will go and 

744
00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:14,100
they'll take screenshots of that
with their phones and they'll 

745
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:16,300
hand it over maybe to the PA or 
if it's very technical, they'll 

746
00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:18,300
keep it for themselves and 
they'll just talk about it and 

747
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:21,200
everyone's on the same page and 
they'll go and like write it. 

748
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,200
Yeah. 
So, The difference between that 

749
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,700
and, you know, a team that uses 
intense architect is, they'll 

750
00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:28,300
also whiteboard sessions, but 
then they'll take that white 

751
00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:30,100
board design in there and 
they'll capture an intent 

752
00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:31,400
architect. 
So, we've got, we've got 

753
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,100
powerful modeling capabilities. 
Yeah, so you can model out 

754
00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:35,900
exactly what you wrote on the 
Whiteboard, okay? 

755
00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:38,300
These are my domain entities as 
their relationship. 

756
00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:40,400
These are the services, the 
venting, all of that kind of 

757
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,600
stuff can be modeled. 
Yeah. 

758
00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:44,800
And so, by modeling up that 
contract, we then can use 

759
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,900
intent. 
Architect to actually automate 

760
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:48,900
that architecture that holds it 
all together. 

761
00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:50,700
And so, that's the second part 
of intent. 

762
00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:52,900
Architect is what we call 
pattern reuse. 

763
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,900
So you can have patterns that 
have been installed into that 

764
00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:59,100
kind of work space and we call 
them modules and ultimately 

765
00:30:59,100 --> 00:31:01,800
those can output the code for 
you exactly the way that you 

766
00:31:01,808 --> 00:31:03,600
want it. 
So something that the developers

767
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,600
are controlling, it's not 
something that we prescribe 

768
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,200
we're not a prescriptive tool at
the end of the day. 

769
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,600
Yeah. 
Exact as a makes it kind of via 

770
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,100
your comments in its framework 
agnostic and it's also code 

771
00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:15,000
agnostic. 
Yeah. 

772
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:16,900
How does it do that? 
Just kind of high over. 

773
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:22,000
Okay, so okay, so it basically, 
you know how intent on architect

774
00:31:22,100 --> 00:31:24,100
He works. 
Yes, is you've got these three 

775
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,200
mechanisms which you could think
of as having you know, they're 

776
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,600
essentially you could say three 
pieces of same puzzle, okay. 

777
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,500
And the first is, what we call 
this pattern reuse, which is the

778
00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:35,000
modules that I just mentioned. 
Exactly. 

779
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,300
So, if you look at any 
architecture, you know, you 

780
00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:40,100
could say, well, you know, in a 
typical very kind of another 

781
00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:43,500
architecture or maybe you're 
following like a, let's say, a 

782
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:46,200
Robert Martin, your Uncle Bob's 
clean architecture, you know, 

783
00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:48,600
you'll say cool, well, we've got
some kind of controller pattern,

784
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,900
which is handling, the the calls
from the API. 

785
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,500
I calls at the end of the day, 
so it's handling that then we've

786
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:57,100
got a dispatch to the business 
logic, which is using a mediator

787
00:31:57,100 --> 00:31:59,200
pattern probably. 
So it's commanded queries for 

788
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,100
the cqrs and then you've got 
your entities, you've got maybe 

789
00:32:03,100 --> 00:32:05,800
repository patterns, you've 
probably got some kind of an orm

790
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,500
in the mix of using a relational
database and you know maybe this

791
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:11,500
Factory patterns and 
specification patterns and all 

792
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:13,300
kinds of stuff. 
Now, all of these patterns, 

793
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:16,600
ultimately, you could idea 
behind pets and reuse is that 

794
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,900
you could take any one of them 
and you could turn them into a 

795
00:32:18,908 --> 00:32:21,200
module, which essentially 
automate that pattern going 

796
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,900
forward. 
You can get it for free. 

797
00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:24,700
So that's the first mechanism, 
okay? 

798
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:27,200
But to make that possible, we've
got two other mechanisms. 

799
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,700
The one is what we call code 
management. 

800
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:30,500
Yeah. 
Okay. 

801
00:32:30,500 --> 00:32:32,600
And this is really an advanced 
form of cogeneration. 

802
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,000
I think that's quite 
interesting, but it's little bit

803
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,900
more Technical. 
And then the last kind of piece 

804
00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:40,900
of the puzzle is the modeling 
systems, the ability to describe

805
00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:45,800
a blueprint of the system, okay?
And I mean, to do a little, you 

806
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,600
know, understand, you know, kind
of understanding the automation 

807
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,200
side of things in terms of the 
code management. 

808
00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:52,900
Yeah, is that That you've got 
these. 

809
00:32:53,300 --> 00:32:55,800
I mean we're not language 
agnostic completely. 

810
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:56,900
Okay. 
I mean intense. 

811
00:32:56,900 --> 00:32:59,000
Architect can automate any file 
sir? 

812
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,600
You are language agnostic for 
the most part but code 

813
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,400
management is actually something
that we have particular support 

814
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,100
for a set of languages which was
Squirt. 

815
00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:09,500
We are expanding on. 
Yeah so at the moment we're very

816
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,700
very much in this eShop Java 
typescript space with a vision 

817
00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:16,100
to go into the go and Python and
so on so forth. 

818
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,400
And it's really just about kind 
of, you know, choosing the 

819
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,700
languages which are getting the 
most popularity amongst the 

820
00:33:21,700 --> 00:33:22,400
divs. 
Sure. 

821
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:25,700
And so essentially what it is, 
at the end of the day, is, if 

822
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:28,100
you think about. 
So it's probably easiest way to 

823
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:30,400
describe it is just to talk 
about code, generation code 

824
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,500
Automation in the industry. 
Yeah, and then to compare that 

825
00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:34,900
with what code management is 
sure. 

826
00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:36,500
So, if you look at the industry 
at the moment, you've 

827
00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:40,700
essentially got, you've got two 
types of code automation. 

828
00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:43,600
The first is scaffolding sure. 
Okay. 

829
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,900
Now, everyone's super familiar 
with scaffolding, it's like any 

830
00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:48,500
kind of, you know, command line 
interface where you're just 

831
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:51,200
punching in some, you know, 
create me a new this edit just 

832
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,700
drop some code in your code 
base, or you've got a CLI, you 

833
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:57,300
know of Snipping Tool something 
like that where you can just 

834
00:33:57,300 --> 00:33:59,900
snip it stuff inside of your 
your IDE. 

835
00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:04,500
So any kind of, you know, 
once-off generation of code, you

836
00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:07,100
know, to speed you up. 
Yeah, is essentially scaffolding

837
00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:08,400
sure. 
And that's exactly what it does.

838
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,600
Is it speeds the developer 
developer up from A to B in a 

839
00:34:11,607 --> 00:34:14,300
short period of time, it's not 
dangerous because assuming they 

840
00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:16,300
get what they want, let's just 
go ahead and assume that 

841
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,300
assuming they get what they 
want. 

842
00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:21,900
They are able to change it. 
Exactly that it doesn't have any

843
00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:24,199
Long-term benefits. 
Okay, okay. 

844
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:26,000
So that's the problem. 
That was not a problem with it, 

845
00:34:26,007 --> 00:34:28,199
but it's just that it doesn't 
solve any long-term issue. 

846
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:30,000
So if we go back to our things 
about technical debt. 

847
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,900
Yeah, you know, ultimately that 
code is still the liability of 

848
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:33,900
the developers. 
Sure. 

849
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,100
So, you know, and that's the 
truth, it's a code, is a 

850
00:34:36,107 --> 00:34:38,199
liability, the more you have, 
the more you have to maintain. 

851
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,699
Okay. 
Okay, so it's not an asset. 

852
00:34:40,699 --> 00:34:43,699
The blood product is an asset to
my code is the liability. 

853
00:34:43,699 --> 00:34:46,500
Sure, so. 
So that's so scaffolding. 

854
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:48,600
Great shorts, make saturated. 
No long-term benefits doesn't 

855
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:49,800
really fix our long-term 
problem. 

856
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,900
We described earlier on the flip
side. 

857
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,199
Side of that. 
You've got this thing. 

858
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:54,900
We call really continuous 
Automation. 

859
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:57,000
And essentially, this is 
something that is usually done 

860
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,900
by the dev team and it's very 
attractive in some senses, but 

861
00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:04,000
it's basically got a downside, 
which is so huge that it 

862
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:05,500
oftentimes invalidates the 
approach. 

863
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:07,700
Yeah. 
So essentially the mechanism is 

864
00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:11,500
that the developers have written
some kind of a little you know, 

865
00:35:11,500 --> 00:35:14,700
system or an engine, which is 
piping metadata. 

866
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:19,800
So like an easy example would be
you know database schemas or 

867
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,400
stack of files or you know some 
kind of specific Except that 

868
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,500
they've created, maybe Json 
objects and stuff like that. 

869
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,600
Yep. 
And they're piping this metadata

870
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,000
into a template engine which is 
are putting code into the code 

871
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,800
base, you know? 
Now if it's done really really 

872
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,100
badly which is most of the time 
it's like this single file that 

873
00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:37,700
looks absolutely computed and 
you don't want to open anything 

874
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:40,200
an IDE, you ignore like here, be
dragons. 

875
00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:43,100
Yeah, that's basically the 
problem with us and that's a, 

876
00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:44,600
that can be a nightmare in of 
itself. 

877
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,600
But if it's done really, really 
well, then it'll be individual 

878
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,300
files and they'll look exactly 
like a developer wrote them. 

879
00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:50,800
Yeah. 
Okay. 

880
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,000
So there's you know, from that. 
Perspective, there's no issue 

881
00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:56,800
but and there's essentially 
there's two sides to it than I 

882
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,400
that I was mentioning earlier. 
And the first issue is well, at 

883
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,200
least we'll let me rather go 
through what tracks developers 

884
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,900
to it. 
So what is attractive about this

885
00:36:05,900 --> 00:36:08,000
approach is number one using 
automation. 

886
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,100
Yeah. 
Okay, which is something that 

887
00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:12,700
every developer loves so using 
automation, which means you're 

888
00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:14,800
saving yourself a lot of time. 
You don't have to write that 

889
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,800
code, okay? 
You just say, well, create a new

890
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,100
database object in the database.
This is my relationships. 

891
00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:21,400
He's my foreign keys, but blah 
blah, and boom. 

892
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,700
All of a Gets every or entities,
maybe you're over in mappings 

893
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:27,600
and maybe repository as well. 
Okay, which is very common to 

894
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,000
see a lot of this kind of stuff 
and what's really powerful about

895
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,200
it? 
So, beyond the fact that you're 

896
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,600
getting this cook, those coaches
are about that. 

897
00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:40,100
I love talking with my exactly. 
The, the beyond the fact that 

898
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:41,900
you've got this like Automation,
and you've got this 

899
00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:44,800
acceleration. 
Yeah, the other thing that's 

900
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,000
very attractive is let's say, 
for example, you're automating 

901
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,400
some kind of Technology. 
Okay? 

902
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,700
And let's just use the example 
of Of an object relational 

903
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:54,000
mapper sure. 
No worry. 

904
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,700
So let's say, for example you've
built it against version 5 of 

905
00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:03,000
whatever or emu using, okay and 
version 6 comes out with 

906
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,200
significant breaking changes to 
the apis. 

907
00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:07,200
Yeah. 
Now you want to stay up to date.

908
00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:09,500
So, what do you do? 
You go to your template and you 

909
00:37:09,500 --> 00:37:13,400
shift what your template outputs
to now, adjust to the new API, 

910
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:16,100
okay? 
You hit it again and it just 

911
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,100
overwrites. 
Maybe you could have a thousand 

912
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:21,500
entities in your database and 
you change 10 lines of code and 

913
00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:23,700
you just Updated 10,000. 
Yeah. 

914
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,900
Okay. 
And they're in, if you become 

915
00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:28,400
tied back to what we talked 
about earlier. 

916
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,800
Yeah, Varian is the most basic 
form of code weightlessness. 

917
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,700
Exactly, better D to change 10 
at update, 10,000. 

918
00:37:34,700 --> 00:37:37,000
Yeah, 20,000 on and also self 
documenting. 

919
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,700
Well, it's not self dot, it's a 
little bit, like, if you want 

920
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:42,300
certain that, if you exactly, if
you consider your database to be

921
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:44,500
your document, okay 
relationships, then that is self

922
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:45,200
documents. 
Yeah. 

923
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,300
So as long as you've got that 
document, that is to some degree

924
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:50,900
self documents exactly. 
But we're taking the the Swagger

925
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:53,600
file example. 
Well, swag LEL your Swagger. 

926
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,500
It's, I mean, it's regular is a 
document as well. 

927
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,600
It's either the truth at the end
of the day, what you want is 

928
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,100
something that is true to that 
line code base and by having 

929
00:38:02,100 --> 00:38:05,300
that document and having a 
continuously update, it means 

930
00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:07,600
that you can look at the Swagger
document or you can look at the 

931
00:38:07,607 --> 00:38:10,500
database or you could look at 
whatever you're looking at from,

932
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:12,100
you know, maybe you doing it in 
xmi. 

933
00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:14,300
So you're exporting it from some
other modeling system or 

934
00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:17,800
something like that. 
And you can know that because of

935
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,100
this templating system that what
you're looking at, is the truth.

936
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:21,500
Yeah. 
Yeah, that is soft document. 

937
00:38:21,500 --> 00:38:23,800
Yeah. 
So, I mean death, I agree. 

938
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:27,600
I maybe it's not like, I wasn't 
a green 100%. 

939
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,400
I told you do that. 
Exactly. 

940
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:32,800
So that's the upside. 
Sure. 

941
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,000
K and the upsides very 
attractive. 

942
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,800
That's what pools. 
That's what draws guys in. 

943
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,400
Yeah, the downside is massive, 
and this is where cogeneration 

944
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,300
in the industry has a very, very
bad name. 

945
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,400
Okay? 
And it is, the downside is dead.

946
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:48,100
It's very, very bad. 
And this is basically 

947
00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:50,100
illustrates probably easiest, 
just to illustrate with an 

948
00:38:50,107 --> 00:38:53,300
example. 
So let's say you had to make a 

949
00:38:53,308 --> 00:38:54,500
change in a method. 
Yeah. 

950
00:38:54,500 --> 00:38:56,500
Okay. 
In one of the files that was 

951
00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:58,600
being managed by this template. 
Yeah. 

952
00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:02,600
Okay, so you go in there and you
make some change as a developer.

953
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,300
And let's just say it is 100% 
legit. 

954
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:05,500
Like, you're not trying to be 
funny. 

955
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:06,700
You think this is a legit 
change? 

956
00:39:06,700 --> 00:39:09,800
You need, is, you need us? 
Yeah, which invariably is going 

957
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,500
to happen. 
Yeah, because software is not a 

958
00:39:11,508 --> 00:39:13,600
cookie cutter. 
That is always something that 

959
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,200
you want to tweak or optimize 
somewhere. 

960
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,900
Yeah. 
And what happens, the templating

961
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:20,700
engine get kicked off again 
because of course, it's 

962
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:21,800
continuous. 
Exactly. 

963
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,700
Top again and it just acts out 
your changes on. 

964
00:39:25,300 --> 00:39:28,200
And if you can't get around 
this, and I know in like, for 

965
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,500
example, the.net space, they 
they tried bringing a partial 

966
00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:34,300
classes shirt in the Java space,
a lot of guys use inheritance. 

967
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:37,200
And I mean, they did basically 
you just convolute your code 

968
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,500
more and more and more. 
So It ultimately just a hack at 

969
00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:41,500
the end the day, but you can't 
really to code more and more 

970
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:43,800
try, get around these problems 
that the automation engine is 

971
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,100
causing it is always a breaking 
point where you are not able to 

972
00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:51,100
get around anymore, okay? 
And it's at that point that the 

973
00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:53,000
chair will fly across. 
Ross the office exactly. 

974
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,800
It's at that point that someone 
is strangling The Architects and

975
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,500
telling him what he thinks. 
Yeah. 

976
00:39:57,500 --> 00:40:00,200
Okay. 
And so this is this is the Dark 

977
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,500
Side of fat that in basically 
invalidated or at least for the 

978
00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:07,200
most part. 
It keeps it in very specific 

979
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,500
spaces of the soil so that's why
you still see guys, having some 

980
00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:13,900
little success with for example 
database 20 remapping. 

981
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:16,600
So you'll see guys having like 
Swagger automating their 

982
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,800
proxies. 
Exactly they know where to apply

983
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,800
it where it becomes an asset and
not a crutch exactly a Europe. 

984
00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:23,900
Buying it in a space where it 
can't be dangerous. 

985
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,300
You're not really going to want 
to tweak things that you hope 

986
00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:27,300
you're not going to want to 
tweak things. 

987
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:30,000
That's, you know, there's other 
ways you can maybe intercepting,

988
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,700
so make your changes through 
interceptors, but you still are 

989
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:35,400
sometimes having to convolute 
the software a little bit to get

990
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,300
around your automation system. 
Yeah, so tying it all back to 

991
00:40:38,300 --> 00:40:41,100
what code management is. 
Yeah, is code management is 

992
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,000
system which we envision. 
Where basically, we looked at 

993
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,100
the landscape and we set 
ourselves, you know, we really 

994
00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:48,900
like this code weightlessness 
than exactly can see the power 

995
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:50,800
here. 
But there's downside is so 

996
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,700
massive. 
That you know, no one's going to

997
00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:54,600
accept that. 
Yeah. 

998
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,100
Okay. 
You also can't, you know, 

999
00:40:56,100 --> 00:40:58,400
especially the closer you get to
business Logic, the more that 

1000
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,700
automation systems start to 
break down, okay? 

1001
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,300
And so, when we looked at it, we
said to ourselves. 

1002
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:05,900
Well, how do we get the best of 
all worlds and just kind of 

1003
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:07,700
eliminate the downside? 
Yeah. 

1004
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,700
And essentially, the idea was we
said, well, okay. 

1005
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,400
Let's develop a system which 
could do that and that's what 

1006
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:14,900
code management. 
Ultimately is. 

1007
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:16,600
It's a taut. 
It's a, it's a term we've 

1008
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,700
coined, okay to try and 
differentiate it to the guys 

1009
00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:22,700
considerate, different too. 
Cogeneration. 

1010
00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:25,100
And I think this is maybe 
jumping a little bit technical, 

1011
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,100
so it will just kind of brush 
over it quickly. 

1012
00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:28,600
Sure. 
But essentially how it works is 

1013
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,300
we use a combination of 
abstract, syntax, tree, potting 

1014
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,300
and algorithms to actually 
understand the code in the code 

1015
00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:39,300
base and the code that's coming 
out of the automation system at 

1016
00:41:39,300 --> 00:41:42,100
the same as code, understand 
those the same with the 

1017
00:41:42,107 --> 00:41:44,700
developer does, okay? 
So we see, for example, if 

1018
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:47,700
you're looking at like an old 
language, like C shop, we will 

1019
00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:52,300
see the classes, the methods, 
the constructors, the 30 is the 

1020
00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:54,300
field, we see all of that stuff.
OK. 

1021
00:41:54,300 --> 00:41:57,200
And we see that in the code that
exists to and then with 

1022
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,000
algorithms, we can make 
Intelligent Decisions as to how 

1023
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,600
these two worlds must be joined 
together. 

1024
00:42:01,700 --> 00:42:04,800
Yeah, so the idea and the 
principle is that by using it 

1025
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,900
automation system, it never puts
you in a worse position in. 

1026
00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:11,800
If you wrote it all Yourself by 
hand open and you can see it is 

1027
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,300
obviously if that's your first 
principle and also of that 

1028
00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:17,100
principle is that whatever is 
automated should look like I 

1029
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:18,100
wrote. 
Exactly. 

1030
00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:21,400
So there's a ton of to you know,
complimentary principles. 

1031
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:22,800
Yes. 
Code must look like a developer 

1032
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:23,700
eroded. 
That's number one. 

1033
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,300
And the second thing is that I'm
using an automation system, it 

1034
00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:29,000
should never run my day. 
She never fight this thing. 

1035
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,700
Should never become that. 
Crutch It should never. 

1036
00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:32,100
Well, it's not, it's not a 
crutch. 

1037
00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:35,400
It's just like, it's just 
massive liability that can come 

1038
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,400
into the system in the day. 
But so just to give you an idea 

1039
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:40,500
kind of going back to our use 
case. 

1040
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,700
So let's say, for example, the 
developer wanted to make that 

1041
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:46,400
change at the bifida. 
Yes, the gentleman change, okay.

1042
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,400
And they went to their made a 
change. 

1043
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,900
Their automation engine runs 
again, take the change out. 

1044
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,400
Yep, with intent. 
Architect. 

1045
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,600
We could say, for example, in C 
sharp, you could put a attribute

1046
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,900
over that method to say in take 
notes or Java. 

1047
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:00,300
It's an annotation in 
typescript. 

1048
00:43:00,300 --> 00:43:02,600
It's a decorator. 
Yeah, you know, so whatever 

1049
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,800
language we find a way to add 
metadata to the file and you 

1050
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,000
wanted in line there because 
then you can see exactly what's 

1051
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,000
going on. 
You don't want it hidden 

1052
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,400
somewhere and you don't know 
where exactly and that level of 

1053
00:43:10,408 --> 00:43:13,000
granularity can be applied 
anywhere but it's essentially an

1054
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,400
override. 
If for example a put this you 

1055
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,900
know attribute yes a ignore this
method from that moment onwards 

1056
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:21,600
that method but only that 
method. 

1057
00:43:21,900 --> 00:43:23,400
Is now under the developers 
control? 

1058
00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:25,500
Yeah. 
The rest of the file is still 

1059
00:43:25,500 --> 00:43:27,600
under the automations control, 
which means that I still got 

1060
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,300
code. 
Weightlessness over that entire 

1061
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:30,200
design. 
Okay. 

1062
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,200
Which means I can still change 
it holistically from one place. 

1063
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:34,900
Exactly. 
And like I said, you can apply 

1064
00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:38,100
this override at any level, you 
can apply it to, you know, the 

1065
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:40,800
class or individual methods, or 
anything like that. 

1066
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,300
Yeah, another example is where 
you say and this is where the 

1067
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:45,300
granularity gets very fine as 
you could say. 

1068
00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:48,800
Well actually, I want intense 
architecture manage the 

1069
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,900
signature of this method. 
Yeah. 

1070
00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:52,000
But not the body. 
D. 

1071
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:54,200
Okay. 
And what that allows is it 

1072
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,000
allows let's say you automating 
a whole world of infrastructure 

1073
00:43:57,300 --> 00:44:00,000
around a certain contract that 
your blueprint is describing. 

1074
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,600
So let's say for example you're 
describing your business 

1075
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,000
contract or Leisure service 
contract. 

1076
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,500
Yeah, for this is what I will 
expose out as my dto. 

1077
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:09,200
This is kind of the operation. 
Yeah. 

1078
00:44:09,700 --> 00:44:11,800
You could say, well, I'm going 
to automate all the 

1079
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,400
infrastructure but then at some 
point, we got to get into 

1080
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,800
business logic coding. 
Now, business logic is not, it's

1081
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,300
not great to design that in 
models. 

1082
00:44:19,300 --> 00:44:21,700
Exactly. 
Because it becomes it becomes 

1083
00:44:21,900 --> 00:44:24,700
Like a big bowl of spaghetti at 
the end of the day. 

1084
00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:26,000
Like, it looks like a circuit 
board. 

1085
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:27,400
Yeah. 
Two for loops. 

1086
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:28,700
And it's like what is going on 
here? 

1087
00:44:28,700 --> 00:44:30,200
They're trying to wrap your head
around that, but if you saw the 

1088
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:31,900
encode is just so obvious. 
What's going on? 

1089
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,000
Yeah, so code is still the best 
way to handle that kind of 

1090
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,100
complexity to still govern the 
thing. 

1091
00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:38,800
So that's why you don't need 
answers. 

1092
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:41,600
Yeah, exactly. 
That's why we don't see the 

1093
00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:43,600
below code guys, really winning 
on this one. 

1094
00:44:43,700 --> 00:44:46,500
You know, use code is still 
gonna win when it comes to 

1095
00:44:46,500 --> 00:44:49,000
structuring business logic. 
You've got all the patterns, 

1096
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,400
you've got, you know, the whole 
Gulf pets and said to you can 

1097
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,500
use Decorators and strategies, 
and composite patterns and all 

1098
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:56,500
kinds of things to handle your 
complex business. 

1099
00:44:56,500 --> 00:45:00,400
It seems. 
And ultimately, that's, you 

1100
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,300
know, with the was saying, like,
look, I want you to manage the 

1101
00:45:03,300 --> 00:45:05,600
signature. 
Yeah, you can end up tying all 

1102
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,900
of the infrastructure to the 
business logic and you've drawn 

1103
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:09,000
A Line in the Sand and said, 
cool. 

1104
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,400
At this point, I'll take over, 
I'll take over. 

1105
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,200
Yeah, and so you can have the 
automation run all the way to 

1106
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,000
the point of the business logic 
and then the business logic, you

1107
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,600
know, the developers running 
that kind of stuff. 

1108
00:45:18,700 --> 00:45:20,000
Yep. 
And then it can hand back over 

1109
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,700
to infrastructure, okay? 
And by doing That you can end up

1110
00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:28,200
automating, you know, it said 
80% of a back-end 85% of a back 

1111
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,900
end and you can see how much I 
mean for a lot of people that 

1112
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:33,300
use that on new projects. 
We just see them flying. 

1113
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:34,900
Exactly flying. 
Yeah. 

1114
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,400
How do you manage those 
overrides that? 

1115
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,300
I'm guessing you have something 
in place that tells you. 

1116
00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:40,000
All right? 
This is where you've put your 

1117
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,800
overrides. 
So when you rerun your 

1118
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:44,500
generation, this is what will 
happen. 

1119
00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:46,200
You just put it in line in the, 
in the code. 

1120
00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:47,100
Exactly. 
Yeah. 

1121
00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:49,000
So if it's in line in the code, 
it means that there's no 

1122
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,500
confusion now and also you don't
want to be jumping around so you

1123
00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:53,600
don't To have that hidden in the
background, you're like, okay, 

1124
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,800
is this thing over it or not? 
It's exactly like that. 

1125
00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:57,800
Yeah, it's not a runtime 
dependencies. 

1126
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,300
Like an empty metadata. 
It could be a comment. 

1127
00:46:00,300 --> 00:46:02,400
Yeah, you know, it could be 
anything we you just need 

1128
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,300
something to indicate. 
Hey, you must stop here. 

1129
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,200
And I'm a developer is going to 
take over this or this is the 

1130
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:09,700
rules. 
And of course you can you can 

1131
00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:11,300
instruct the system in a lot of 
different ways. 

1132
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,100
Yeah. 
So I mean, if it's just a title 

1133
00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:15,800
back, you know, it's this code 
management which makes it 

1134
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,400
practical. 
Yeah, at the end of the day. 

1135
00:46:17,500 --> 00:46:22,800
So having that is essentially 
what I would say is, He has made

1136
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,100
us what we think of as a 
next-generation code automation 

1137
00:46:25,100 --> 00:46:26,700
platform. 
Yeah, yeah, awesome. 

1138
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,200
So then let's Circle back to you
decided. 

1139
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:30,700
All right, I'm going to do this 
full-time. 

1140
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,800
Yeah, I'm going to hit sales and
I'm going to hit the ground 

1141
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,100
running and then no sales what 
happened then. 

1142
00:46:37,100 --> 00:46:40,100
So we've the first thing we 
thought is that the products not

1143
00:46:40,100 --> 00:46:40,800
good enough. 
Yeah. 

1144
00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:43,600
Okay. 
And I'll be honest with you, we 

1145
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,900
were just so naive in the early 
days of starting this business. 

1146
00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:52,000
I look back in it in retrospect.
And the truth is that we we We 

1147
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,700
had a build and they'll come out
of attitude, okay? 

1148
00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:57,200
If we build, just the most 
beautiful piece of software, 

1149
00:46:57,500 --> 00:46:59,800
that just has all the functions 
you could possibly want. 

1150
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:01,800
Yeah, people will just want to 
buy it. 

1151
00:47:01,900 --> 00:47:06,600
Okay, now that's led to an 
incredibly mature product, Okay?

1152
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,800
So we've got a really mature 
product, you know, we've got a 

1153
00:47:08,808 --> 00:47:11,700
third version and all that 
stuff, but from a commercial 

1154
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:16,100
perspective, yeah man we just 
got slammed and a lot of it came

1155
00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:19,000
down to what I realize is. 
A lot of it comes down to how do

1156
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:19,900
you communicate? 
Yeah. 

1157
00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:21,700
How do you how do you 
communicate these ideas? 

1158
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,100
Is especially in a space where 
you're a first mover exert. 

1159
00:47:25,100 --> 00:47:27,600
All the reading I've done in 
first-movers is that actually, 

1160
00:47:27,900 --> 00:47:30,600
you know, they'll say you've got
an advantage but the evidence is

1161
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,400
actually massively that you've 
got a huge disadvantage okay? 

1162
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:34,800
By being a first mover. 
Yeah. 

1163
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,100
So we're a little bit cognizant 
of the gonna pave, the way 

1164
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,100
you've got to pay the way you 
end up, educating a markers, you

1165
00:47:40,100 --> 00:47:42,300
end up creating this market, and
then someone else comes along as

1166
00:47:42,300 --> 00:47:46,200
his will hold on, you know, this
is something that we could 

1167
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,600
possibly do as well, okay? 
So our, our approach that is 

1168
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,900
just basically to say, well, 
this be cognizant of That. 

1169
00:47:51,900 --> 00:47:54,100
And let's make sure that we 
don't that the product itself 

1170
00:47:54,100 --> 00:47:56,700
is, is the best that we can for 
them. 

1171
00:47:56,700 --> 00:47:58,300
Exactly. 
You know, someone anyone 

1172
00:47:58,300 --> 00:48:01,200
overtaking you if they've got 
better ideas, we're like we must

1173
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,000
have the best ideas sir. 
And I think that that's, you 

1174
00:48:04,008 --> 00:48:06,800
know, that's really the culture 
that we essentially built in the

1175
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,800
company. 
How did you get your product to 

1176
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,300
such a maturity level, but you 
need that customer feedback. 

1177
00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:16,400
I'm assuming while the, the 
lucky side of it was that we 

1178
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,100
always. 
So we dog food it. 

1179
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:19,800
Yeah, so we use it to build 
itself. 

1180
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:21,600
Exactly. 
So that's, that's number one. 

1181
00:48:22,100 --> 00:48:24,200
Which has been a massive 
accelerator for us. 

1182
00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:25,600
Yes. 
Of course, that makes our 

1183
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,100
development a lot faster and so 
on so forth. 

1184
00:48:28,100 --> 00:48:30,100
Yeah. 
And and also, of course, we had 

1185
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:32,000
our clients. 
So we had the client coming with

1186
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:33,800
real. 
These is some of the guys 

1187
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,500
started scaring us with how they
were starting to use the tool. 

1188
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:39,000
Okay? 
You know, as an example way, how

1189
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,600
was? 
So as an example, they started 

1190
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,400
using a domain designer. 
Yeah. 

1191
00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:45,700
You know, for entity 
relationship, diagrams, they 

1192
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:48,600
started using that and a 
combination of like what we kind

1193
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,000
of borrowed this idea from the 
amount guys called stereotypes. 

1194
00:48:52,100 --> 00:48:54,100
And essentially they start 
building at workflows. 

1195
00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:55,500
Yeah. 
So they suddenly think the 

1196
00:48:55,500 --> 00:48:58,700
domain systems for workflows and
we got a fright. 

1197
00:48:58,700 --> 00:49:01,500
We were like this is, it's a bit
of a bastardization of what the 

1198
00:49:01,500 --> 00:49:02,500
tool is meant for. 
Yeah. 

1199
00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:05,100
And so that sent us down a path 
where we said, well she's you 

1200
00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:09,700
know we actually need the 
ability to configure and 

1201
00:49:09,700 --> 00:49:12,800
customize the design and 
capabilities and that has been 

1202
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,000
one of the features which gets 
so many divs. 

1203
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,200
Incredibly excited. 
Is this idea that hold on? 

1204
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,400
We can you know, you're not 
telling us how to design a 

1205
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,400
system we can come up with it 
ourselves. 

1206
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,100
Yeah. 
You know, we can like literally 

1207
00:49:23,100 --> 00:49:26,100
makeup Concepts and then model 
them out and then use their to 

1208
00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:28,600
automate, all kinds of things 
that we haven't even thought of 

1209
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,300
yet. 
So you know, we've since seen 

1210
00:49:30,300 --> 00:49:33,000
some really interesting stuff. 
So workflows is a common one you

1211
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,900
know guys will end up creating 
their own workflow designers 

1212
00:49:35,900 --> 00:49:38,700
with their own you know 
structures and maybe even the 11

1213
00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:41,100
insurance companies in South 
Africa. 

1214
00:49:41,100 --> 00:49:44,200
That uses our software has they 
use like if they have a 

1215
00:49:44,207 --> 00:49:47,900
cassoulet associations and say 
okay 45 minutes between these 

1216
00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:50,700
two steps and dinner so they 
bought all these unique things 

1217
00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:52,900
and quite structured. 
And if Perfectly into their 

1218
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,400
world. 
Yeah, and we seen guys do things

1219
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,800
like infrastructure as code you 
know like describing their 

1220
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,100
pipelines, describing their 
deployment strategies and stuff 

1221
00:50:00,100 --> 00:50:02,300
as models including testing 
stuff. 

1222
00:50:02,300 --> 00:50:05,100
So the more vanilla stuff is, of
course, entity relationships 

1223
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,900
Services Eventing systems. 
Yeah. 

1224
00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:10,200
And, you know, recently we've 
been doing more and more 

1225
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,700
front-end related stuff here. 
Structuring our front end, but 

1226
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:14,900
from a contract perspective and 
that's the key. 

1227
00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:16,400
Is that your blueprint is a 
contract? 

1228
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,000
Yeah, you don't want to be, we 
don't see ourselves jumping into

1229
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,900
the drag-and-drop, you know, 
edit After anytime soon. 

1230
00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:25,700
Ultimately, that's, that's an 
HTML that with the Dave's 

1231
00:50:25,700 --> 00:50:26,900
exerted. 
That's something else. 

1232
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,500
Exactly. 
You know, you want the devs 

1233
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:31,700
knees, still have all the power.
Remember the philosophy is like 

1234
00:50:32,100 --> 00:50:35,000
we don't, you never want to be 
in a worse position than if you 

1235
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:36,800
didn't, then if you wrote it all
yourself. 

1236
00:50:36,900 --> 00:50:38,600
Yeah. 
So that's the kind of philosophy

1237
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:40,400
at exactly if I were to use that
tool. 

1238
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,700
Can I reuse with with other 
people wrote? 

1239
00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:44,200
Is it kind of? 
Yeah, open. 

1240
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:45,700
And I can use the modules they 
created. 

1241
00:50:45,700 --> 00:50:50,300
Yeah, so I mean not necessarily 
the ones that I've clients have 

1242
00:50:50,300 --> 00:50:53,700
credit so they keep those It's a
form of intellectual property 

1243
00:50:53,700 --> 00:50:56,000
for an organization. 
So if they've gone and built a 

1244
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,400
set of modules, yeah, that would
be, there's a good, you know, we

1245
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,300
can't tell them guys, you need 
to give this to the world. 

1246
00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:03,000
Exactly. 
But all of our modules that we 

1247
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,100
built as examples, so guys can 
get a feel for what the tools 

1248
00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:08,100
all about. 
Those are all open source exert 

1249
00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:10,100
so it's available and guys can 
download it. 

1250
00:51:10,100 --> 00:51:12,600
And you know we just been 
implemented architectures that 

1251
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:18,300
we see as quite popular. 
So an example is in the darkness

1252
00:51:18,300 --> 00:51:21,400
space, we recently implemented 
Uncle Bob's clean architecture. 

1253
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,200
Yeah. 
And so, you know, that comes in 

1254
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,600
with, with all the, all the 
different, Jimmy Bogaerts, 

1255
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,400
libraries and the patterns and 
stuff. 

1256
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,200
And you know what's nice is that
because we get to see so many 

1257
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,600
different ways of doing things. 
In a sense, we can kind of see 

1258
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,300
the pros and cons. 
And then we just choose the one 

1259
00:51:34,300 --> 00:51:36,400
that we think is the best. 
Of course, there's pros and cons

1260
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,500
to every approach. 
So, we just pick those. 

1261
00:51:38,500 --> 00:51:40,700
And then, you know, we've got 
some, some guys who say, well, 

1262
00:51:40,700 --> 00:51:42,700
we love these patterns, they're 
perfect, we're going to use 

1263
00:51:42,700 --> 00:51:45,500
them, but a lot of clients, they
just love getting behind the 

1264
00:51:45,500 --> 00:51:47,800
wheel and they want to manage 
their own modules. 

1265
00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:49,900
And so, that's something I would
say that the majority of the 

1266
00:51:49,900 --> 00:51:51,800
stuff they were doing at the 
moment and we love that because 

1267
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:54,100
Ultimately, this tool was built 
for him. 

1268
00:51:54,300 --> 00:51:55,300
Awesome. 
Awesome. 

1269
00:51:55,300 --> 00:51:57,600
So you've got your product which
is I'm guessing you're happy 

1270
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,700
with the maturity level. 
Now, yeah, I'm guessing you're 

1271
00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:03,300
going to focus on Commercial 
level more than, or what's your 

1272
00:52:03,300 --> 00:52:04,700
plan here while the thing is 
that? 

1273
00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:07,100
Yeah, I look for myself. 
Yes, yeah. 

1274
00:52:07,100 --> 00:52:08,800
Okay. 
For the rest of the team, its 

1275
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,300
product product product. 
Yeah, the reason is that, you 

1276
00:52:11,308 --> 00:52:15,100
know, ultimately, by the time, I
think that anybody wakes up to 

1277
00:52:15,107 --> 00:52:17,300
that, this is actually 
potentially the best way to be 

1278
00:52:17,300 --> 00:52:20,300
building software. 
Yeah, by the time, we hope that 

1279
00:52:20,300 --> 00:52:23,100
that, you know, the community, 
Wakes up to that, that will be 

1280
00:52:23,100 --> 00:52:25,400
so far along that if anyone 
wants to jump into the game, 

1281
00:52:25,700 --> 00:52:27,500
they'll be playing, you know? 
Years of ketchup? 

1282
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,100
Yeah. 
So that's the thinking around, 

1283
00:52:29,100 --> 00:52:31,800
like the product. 
Also, we see so many ways to 

1284
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,600
improve the experience, you 
know? 

1285
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,500
So you know you want faster 
feedback and we get this 

1286
00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:38,000
feedback from clients all the 
time that I go. 

1287
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,700
Be so great if this would be so 
great if that, and we're always 

1288
00:52:40,700 --> 00:52:42,900
sitting there analyzing that and
saying well you know what is the

1289
00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:45,600
best way for us to bring that 
into the product and get that 

1290
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,100
article exerts it back to them 
so that they can get? 

1291
00:52:48,100 --> 00:52:50,200
They can use it and I think 
that's quite cool as well. 

1292
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:54,500
Write the That are using our 
products at the moment feel very

1293
00:52:54,500 --> 00:52:57,600
much involved because a lot of 
the features that they're asking

1294
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,300
for, you know, a month or two 
later, it gets released and 

1295
00:53:00,300 --> 00:53:02,600
like, there you go guys. 
You know, this is what you've 

1296
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,100
been asking for in that I got, 
you know, it's been great but I 

1297
00:53:05,100 --> 00:53:08,100
also got these 10 other features
so that that's how it goes. 

1298
00:53:08,100 --> 00:53:10,500
Yeah, it's not goes exactly. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1299
00:53:10,500 --> 00:53:13,000
So at some point we left off, 
you had two customers and 

1300
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,000
obviously we're trying to focus 
on sales how far along are you 

1301
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,300
know? 
So while we're much much further

1302
00:53:18,300 --> 00:53:22,000
along at the moment. 
So we've basically, I mean, Over

1303
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,000
the years, we picked up another 
corporate. 

1304
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,700
It's funny how the corporate 
seem to actually, you know, if 

1305
00:53:26,707 --> 00:53:29,500
you've got the right Connections
in a corporate, it'll open up to

1306
00:53:29,500 --> 00:53:30,500
you. 
But if you go to a corporate 

1307
00:53:30,500 --> 00:53:33,000
from the outside, yeah, hold its
shoot you down. 

1308
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:34,900
It's quite difficult. 
It is. 

1309
00:53:34,900 --> 00:53:37,400
It's also, you know, they'll 
make you jump through a thousand

1310
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,600
hoops and stuff like that. 
And they get they get to bully 

1311
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,500
you as well as this that's hard.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

1312
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:44,400
Then they're just like, you 
know, will only pay you this? 

1313
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:45,600
This is the budget. 
We've gotten. 

1314
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:46,900
Okay. 
Well, I'm just so glad to have 

1315
00:53:46,900 --> 00:53:50,100
you on the books, you know, just
you just kind of put up with it.

1316
00:53:50,100 --> 00:53:53,100
But I think we're getting to a 
point now where You know, we've 

1317
00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:56,500
ramped up white massively in the
last while I mean you know, our 

1318
00:53:56,500 --> 00:53:59,300
client base is, is getting close
on 10. 

1319
00:53:59,500 --> 00:54:03,000
This is hoping to we've got a 
set of new clients at the end of

1320
00:54:03,008 --> 00:54:05,900
the day it's set on, you know, 
basically, almost doubling 

1321
00:54:05,900 --> 00:54:07,200
that's just in the next few 
months. 

1322
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,000
Yeah. 
So it's really started taking 

1323
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,000
off at this point. 
We finally figured out how to 

1324
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:13,800
explain it. 
Yeah, we figured out how to, 

1325
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,000
what the, fastest way it is. 
For a team to start getting the 

1326
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,200
benefits, okay? 
And we just know how to do 

1327
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,000
everything. 
So it's at this point, Not that 

1328
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,700
we were really, just looking to 
scale it up a little bit. 

1329
00:54:24,700 --> 00:54:27,400
Go a little bit faster. 
Yeah, and my thinking is really 

1330
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,400
true from a strategic 
perspective to say, well, let's 

1331
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,400
run this engine at, you know, 
the 500 RPM, 5000 RPM o'clock, 

1332
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:35,700
you know, you don't want to go 
into the red. 

1333
00:54:35,700 --> 00:54:37,500
You don't want to be in 6 or 
7,000 RPM. 

1334
00:54:37,500 --> 00:54:39,900
Yeah, you know, going so fast. 
You know, we reckon that if we 

1335
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:42,000
pushed it, we could probably do,
you know, eight new clients 

1336
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,700
month? 
Yeah, but the time is 35, would 

1337
00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:47,100
just be insane it. 
It'd be, you know, we would have

1338
00:54:47,100 --> 00:54:51,200
no time to really look at 
internalizing and retrospective.

1339
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:52,700
And so on. 
So, What's exactly? 

1340
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,600
So, that's really the, the the 
kind of strategy at this point. 

1341
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,700
But I think we're very, were 
very lucky to be where we are. 

1342
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:04,800
We've got some really 
prestigious clients on the 

1343
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,900
books. 
Yeah, we've got a pipeline, 

1344
00:55:06,900 --> 00:55:09,900
which is looking awesome. 
So, you know, with a lot of, a 

1345
00:55:09,908 --> 00:55:13,100
lot of interest coming in. 
So at this point, it's just 

1346
00:55:13,100 --> 00:55:14,100
looking like, we're going to 
sail. 

1347
00:55:14,100 --> 00:55:18,000
But like I said, earlier, I keep
a fridge packed full of apple 

1348
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,600
pie first. 
I should, you know, it's weird. 

1349
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:23,900
Little, you know, we're at a 
point now, where we can say 

1350
00:55:23,900 --> 00:55:26,400
we've got product Market fit, 
but, you know, there's always 

1351
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,100
going to be some curveball, 
exactly. 

1352
00:55:28,100 --> 00:55:31,900
Yeah, I'm guessing you wrote a 
lot of the code yourself and a 

1353
00:55:31,900 --> 00:55:34,600
lot of the platform yourself and
you're still very much involved.

1354
00:55:34,700 --> 00:55:37,000
Yeah, I know, I wrote I wrote a 
fair amount of it. 

1355
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,100
I definitely could not have done
it without the team. 

1356
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:39,600
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1357
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:43,900
The guys are I think that what 
was really great about the team 

1358
00:55:43,900 --> 00:55:47,200
is that I'm working with 
probably the smartest software 

1359
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,500
Engineers that I have ever met 
okay? 

1360
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,700
And, you know, I've got a list 
of guys that are We could be 

1361
00:55:52,700 --> 00:55:55,200
good enough. 
Yeah but it's not a long list. 

1362
00:55:55,300 --> 00:55:56,800
Exactly. 
So I think that we've been very 

1363
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:58,600
lucky in that sense. 
And these guys have come up with

1364
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,600
incredible, incredible ideas 
over the years and implemented, 

1365
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,800
some amazing stuff. 
So, you know, I think that's the

1366
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:06,400
key, right? 
Is you got to be an ideation 

1367
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,700
Hub, you know, to be like 
continuously coming up with 

1368
00:56:08,700 --> 00:56:10,500
ideas and thinking about things.
Yeah. 

1369
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,800
So, you know, it's I don't want 
to make it sound like I did, you

1370
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,200
know, it sure it was all me. 
It was, it was the team. 

1371
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,000
That's almost more than more, 
than myself at the exactly. 

1372
00:56:19,100 --> 00:56:21,600
How is it hiring first higher 
than that? 

1373
00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:23,900
Trusting them with let's say 
your thing. 

1374
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:25,500
I mean, it's your products, your
baby. 

1375
00:56:25,700 --> 00:56:27,500
Well, I think that someone into 
the fold. 

1376
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,400
Yeah, it's slow. 
Yeah. 

1377
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,100
You know, there's a lot of kind 
of outside edges where one can 

1378
00:56:34,100 --> 00:56:36,500
start dabbling with a tool and 
getting a feel for how it works.

1379
00:56:36,500 --> 00:56:38,100
Yeah. 
Before one gets into the core. 

1380
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,500
Exactly. 
And the core at the moment 

1381
00:56:40,500 --> 00:56:43,100
there's really just myself and 
one of the other Engineers who 

1382
00:56:43,100 --> 00:56:45,100
do play around in the core the 
most okay? 

1383
00:56:45,700 --> 00:56:48,400
And that's because it's you know
it is complicated. 

1384
00:56:48,500 --> 00:56:50,500
Yeah you know it is it is under 
the hood. 

1385
00:56:50,500 --> 00:56:53,800
It's a Funny how like over the 
years in so many ways we've 

1386
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,500
simplified, but at the end of 
the day, the simplification and 

1387
00:56:56,500 --> 00:57:00,100
the generalization that we've 
brought in, has made the power 

1388
00:57:00,100 --> 00:57:01,000
incredible. 
Yeah. 

1389
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,700
Because, of course, now it's so 
Dynamic and so flexible, but 

1390
00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:07,300
that does mean that you need to 
kind of think about second 

1391
00:57:07,300 --> 00:57:09,700
order, third order, fourth order
consequences to a lot of the 

1392
00:57:09,700 --> 00:57:11,400
technical decisions were making 
and stuff like that. 

1393
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:15,000
So you had to answer your 
question on the, you know, on 

1394
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,500
hiring and bringing guys in 
slowly. 

1395
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,200
That's like I caught you, you 
can't just let it go too 

1396
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,900
quickly. 
When I brought, It in the guy's 

1397
00:57:22,900 --> 00:57:24,700
been helping was with the 
commercial side of things. 

1398
00:57:24,700 --> 00:57:26,400
That was also quite tricky in 
the beginning. 

1399
00:57:27,500 --> 00:57:30,800
But you know, it's what I've 
really seen is one of the most 

1400
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,800
powerful powerful factors in the
business is even though we're so

1401
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,600
small, we focus a lot on 
culture. 

1402
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:36,800
Yeah. 
You know, and you wouldn't think

1403
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,900
of that as a start-up exactly. 
But I read it, Jim Collins book,

1404
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,700
The Briand entrepreneurship 2.0,
and he basically convinced me, 

1405
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,100
you know, it's, this is the 
heart of the company, exactly. 

1406
00:57:49,100 --> 00:57:52,400
And so, we started focusing on 
the culture and The strangest 

1407
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,400
thing started, just 
automatically happening. 

1408
00:57:54,500 --> 00:57:56,500
Yeah, before I knew it the guys 
were more energetic. 

1409
00:57:56,700 --> 00:57:58,800
Yeah. 
Because I mean like you know we 

1410
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:00,900
are building a lot of the stuff 
you know especially in the early

1411
00:58:00,900 --> 00:58:03,200
days we were building a lot of 
the stuff in our spare time so 

1412
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,800
you know this is extra hours, 
you're tired, this is your 

1413
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,200
weekends, you know, that's 
really where a lot of the dev 

1414
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:13,000
work had to go down and 
ultimately, you know, the, the 

1415
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,300
culture that we sort of building
out at the end of the day, was 

1416
00:58:16,300 --> 00:58:19,200
starting to re-energize these 
guys after these like yours of 

1417
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,400
just building and building. 
And so we started seeing the 

1418
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,100
guys You know, spending time on 
the weekends and spending time, 

1419
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:26,100
you know, just coming off two 
hours and stuff like that, which

1420
00:58:26,100 --> 00:58:27,700
is obviously, it's on their own 
accord. 

1421
00:58:27,700 --> 00:58:29,500
It's because they love it. 
Yeah, it's because they're 

1422
00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:31,000
bought in it's because they see 
the vision. 

1423
00:58:31,300 --> 00:58:34,500
They we are all working towards 
the same dream. 

1424
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,100
Yeah. 
And that's where I see the power

1425
00:58:36,100 --> 00:58:38,900
of a culture and like it's one 
of those things where you almost

1426
00:58:38,900 --> 00:58:41,200
realize. 
It's not something that you set 

1427
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,100
out. 
It's something that you work on 

1428
00:58:44,100 --> 00:58:45,900
all the time and find ways to 
live. 

1429
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,200
Yeah, as a company continuously 
loving it. 

1430
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,600
And you see, everyone's God 
starts to drop and everyone. 

1431
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,200
To relax a lot more and more 
themselves and there's all these

1432
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,600
other benefits and then they 
feel more part of a family. 

1433
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,300
And then they share things like,
you know, vulnerabilities and 

1434
00:58:59,300 --> 00:59:01,000
things like that. 
And they asked for advice and 

1435
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:02,600
all this kind of stuff starts to
come out of it. 

1436
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,100
And we're doing all of this 
remotely, which is crazy if you 

1437
00:59:05,100 --> 00:59:07,600
do about as well. 
So it's, I mean, it's been a 

1438
00:59:07,607 --> 00:59:09,300
mess. 
It's been a crazy crazy Journey 

1439
00:59:09,300 --> 00:59:12,100
up to this point but, you know, 
we're at a point now where we 

1440
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:14,700
the Futures just looking so, 
massively Brides. 

1441
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:18,600
Yeah, but like I said, all times
that Humble Pie is waiting for 

1442
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,100
me in the fridge. 
Exactly. 

1443
00:59:22,300 --> 00:59:25,700
It if we focus on what you said 
building on culture, how do you 

1444
00:59:25,700 --> 00:59:27,900
do that at some point? 
You reflecting you say, okay, 

1445
00:59:27,900 --> 00:59:30,300
this is what we need. 
Probably or you try things out 

1446
00:59:30,300 --> 00:59:32,800
and you some point. 
No, it's alright we need to work

1447
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:34,200
on culture. 
Yeah. 

1448
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,200
I think that's the first thing 
is obviously stopped with a why?

1449
00:59:37,300 --> 00:59:38,800
Yeah, like why do we need 
culture? 

1450
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:39,800
Exactly. 
Okay. 

1451
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,200
So that was the first thing is 
that I needed to in a sense I 

1452
00:59:42,207 --> 00:59:46,000
need to convince my team that 
culture is a necessary thing 

1453
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:50,100
because I was going to bring in.
You know, I wanted to bring this

1454
00:59:50,100 --> 00:59:51,600
culture thing in. 
We I didn't know. 

1455
00:59:51,700 --> 00:59:53,400
To do it. 
You know, there was some kind of

1456
00:59:53,408 --> 00:59:56,200
guidelines out there from the 
book, but I didn't know how to 

1457
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:57,900
bring the culture in. 
So, the first thing we 

1458
00:59:57,900 --> 00:59:59,300
essentially, I can only say, how
we did it. 

1459
00:59:59,300 --> 01:00:02,200
So far is, you know, we sat down
and we said, well water, our 

1460
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:03,400
personal values. 
Yeah. 

1461
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:04,800
Like, what do we value 
personally? 

1462
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,600
And then we didn't exercise when
we cross correlated those 

1463
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,400
values. 
And so, well, okay, all of us 

1464
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:13,100
feel very strongly about this 
this and this. 

1465
01:00:13,100 --> 01:00:14,700
Yeah. 
And then we started coming out 

1466
01:00:14,700 --> 01:00:17,100
with what we called, the company
code. 

1467
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:18,400
Okay. 
And it is little, you know? 

1468
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,700
Okay, it's funny to some degree 
or another Clever to some degree

1469
01:00:22,700 --> 01:00:23,900
because it's code. 
Sure. 

1470
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,500
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
So we were like, oh yeah, that's

1471
01:00:27,500 --> 01:00:29,100
okay. 
We'll call it the company code. 

1472
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,300
Yeah. 
And you know, we kept 

1473
01:00:31,300 --> 01:00:33,800
elaborating on that and we went 
through about three or four 

1474
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:38,500
versions before, we felt that it
was, you know, good enough for 

1475
01:00:38,500 --> 01:00:41,300
us to say we could put a stamp 
on this and then I start getting

1476
01:00:41,300 --> 01:00:42,300
idea. 
Well, you know, this is 

1477
01:00:42,300 --> 01:00:45,100
something that we still want to 
do is, you know, say guys should

1478
01:00:45,100 --> 01:00:47,600
sign this thing of the day and 
you get all these crazy ideas 

1479
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,800
like we should sign it in blood 
if this isn't but I thought, 

1480
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,200
okay, that's good. 
Let's just sign it, even if it's

1481
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:54,700
digital signature or something 
like that. 

1482
01:00:54,700 --> 01:00:57,200
Like, as long as guys are 
sitting there going like I, you 

1483
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,400
know, my name here by, you know,
saying that I will follow 16, 

1484
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,100
uphold the company culture, etc 
etc and then they sign it and of

1485
01:01:05,107 --> 01:01:06,700
course that you know, that's 
just one piece. 

1486
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:08,400
Sure. 
So, Jim Collins will basically 

1487
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,600
say well these three pieces to a
vision for a company. 

1488
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,000
So, you know, your coat, your 
company, your culture is 

1489
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,400
essentially the main thing, 
okay? 

1490
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,700
And the other guy who I love is 
is Tom Balu, okay? 

1491
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,400
He's incredible and he's, you 
know, he's He talks about like 

1492
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,800
the immutable kind of you know 
that every company needs certain

1493
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,600
things, and he talks about 
things like idea meritocracies, 

1494
01:01:27,700 --> 01:01:30,000
you know, and it doesn't matter 
who comes to the idea, the best 

1495
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,000
idea must win. 
Yeah, you know, and I've got 

1496
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,700
things where I feel very 
strongly, that a team has always

1497
01:01:34,700 --> 01:01:37,100
stare at problems in the face. 
You know, you never sweep stuff 

1498
01:01:37,100 --> 01:01:39,100
under the rug. 
You never have feel good stuff. 

1499
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:43,200
We always deal with reality. 
Yeah, which is something that I 

1500
01:01:43,207 --> 01:01:45,100
got from Winston. 
Churchill, you know, if you read

1501
01:01:45,100 --> 01:01:47,400
about his stuff, he's like, he's
like, If You're Going Through 

1502
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,800
Hell keep going, he's so stoic. 
He is sober. 

1503
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:52,700
Atleast, okay? 
It's also I think he's got some 

1504
01:01:52,700 --> 01:01:56,800
really, really great sayings and
you know the first piece is this

1505
01:01:57,900 --> 01:01:59,500
these values? 
The second thing you need is you

1506
01:01:59,508 --> 01:02:02,600
need a purpose now the why it's 
like your North Star at the 

1507
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:06,000
other day and you need to be 
heading towards this North Star 

1508
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:07,100
at all times. 
Yeah. 

1509
01:02:07,700 --> 01:02:10,600
And the thing is, it's a purpose
for a company is something that 

1510
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:13,300
should in theory be able to 
withstand, you know, the next 

1511
01:02:13,300 --> 01:02:14,400
100 years. 
Exactly. 

1512
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:18,500
It's like, it's why the company 
is on Earth and three companies,

1513
01:02:18,500 --> 01:02:20,900
purpose, if you lay it out in 
one line, oh, I don't know. 

1514
01:02:22,100 --> 01:02:25,300
It's written down somewhere and 
I don't wanna risk butchering, 

1515
01:02:25,300 --> 01:02:28,200
it's no worries. 
So then the next thing. 

1516
01:02:28,300 --> 01:02:30,500
But it's so funny. 
When we're going through this 

1517
01:02:30,500 --> 01:02:34,400
one of our Founders, Joel, he he
always jokes. 

1518
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,800
He's like the purpose of this 
company is to unshipped show 

1519
01:02:37,300 --> 01:02:41,000
that the software industry like 
Joe, we can't have that as the 

1520
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,900
as the purpose of a company. 
But you know it's I think it 

1521
01:02:43,900 --> 01:02:46,100
puts it in perspective. 
It's like it's a complete, you 

1522
01:02:46,100 --> 01:02:48,100
know, I don't use my friendship 
but yeah. 

1523
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:50,700
So anyway, so that's the second 
piece in the final pieces, 

1524
01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:52,300
you're what they call the Your 
mission. 

1525
01:02:52,300 --> 01:02:54,600
Yeah, you know, your big hairy 
audacious goal. 

1526
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:56,800
Exactly. 
You know, and so for us at this 

1527
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:01,100
point, we essentially see that 
as being the, an essential tool 

1528
01:03:01,100 --> 01:03:03,400
in the software industry. 
Yeah, you know, we see every 

1529
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,400
developer when they get there, 
you know, high-end machine. 

1530
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:10,800
Yeah, they have a copy of 
whatever the operating system is

1531
01:03:10,900 --> 01:03:13,600
they have a copy of their 
favorite IDE. 

1532
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,100
Yep. 
And they have a copy of intent. 

1533
01:03:15,100 --> 01:03:17,900
Architect, beautiful. 
And that is what we want to be 

1534
01:03:17,900 --> 01:03:21,200
in the software industry. 
You want to be such a core piece

1535
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:23,200
of Of the of the industry. 
Yeah. 

1536
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,000
Day that it's just like this is 
how you develop. 

1537
01:03:26,100 --> 01:03:28,000
Yeah this is how you build 
software these days and these 

1538
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,600
are the principles that you use 
is you don't you don't manage, 

1539
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:34,800
you know, a code Base by hand. 
Yeah, you know, you don't go 

1540
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,300
right every last line of code 
and then shift it all around 

1541
01:03:37,300 --> 01:03:39,700
with a shovel. 
It's like we got power tools how

1542
01:03:39,700 --> 01:03:41,900
we operate this is how the 
software industry Works awesome.

1543
01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:44,900
And so that's yeah. 
That's basically the vision. 

1544
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,200
That's awesome, man. 
Thanks for coming on. 

1545
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,000
It was a lot of fun. 
Talking to you two. 

1546
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:51,500
Yeah, let's do this again 
sometime. 

1547
01:03:51,700 --> 01:03:52,600
Patrick. 
Thanks very much fun. 

1548
01:03:52,700 --> 01:04:00,400
Yeah, no problem. 
Creating digital leaders.