Hi, everyone. My name is Patrick Akio, and if
you're interested in rapid AI product development, this
episode is for you. Joining me today is Nick Gustin.
He has many years of experience in banking and shifted his focus
to this tech field specifically for AI and products.
He's building up many of them. And the question is, how does he
do that? Listening to find out.
Enjoy. I've always said that and I, I
think I'm very biased, but within this tech field or tech
domain, knowledge is being shared effortlessly.
When people think of a solution or when they've solved an
interesting problem, they don't hold it to themselves, right?
The next thing they do is share it somewhere online, in a blog
form, content or on YouTube or on a conference, indeed with as
many people as possible. And I've never seen it from a
different perspective or different industry.
What is kind of your view in your past experience versus what
you see now in the tech field? I yeah, you're actually almost,
almost told it the way how people communicate in tech
industry, frankly, and I'm not flattering anyone, but I'm sure
that some of guys would would know themselves in my words.
It's made me so much interested in the tag from the day one when
I started to to dive in the way how people share knowledge and
how transparent and open they are.
And they find this is very different from many other
industries. And again, so I worked for 18
years in banking and in banking you're exposed to many
industries. So effectively I worked not only
in banking but also in trade, in global trade, in oil trade, in
seeds trade and soft commodities, in construction of
I was constructing even big farms, salmon factories, so you
name it. That's a lot, yeah.
A lot of different things and and you are in touch with
different sectors of economy and again, everywhere people share
knowledge but the speed and the amount of this information,
which is a valuable and speed of sharing knowledge I found in in
tech community just amazing when I first started and we can go to
a practical example, not to be very theoretical my my first
code was 35 lines long and I just copy paste it from someone.
Of course, everyone does that And and again, I came to to the
idea that I want to start coding and then I thought I, I want to,
I had two ideas. I need to start using AI and I
want to code. So and then I thought, OK, I
will code something around AI with AI.
So what a what a brilliant idea. Yeah.
And and then I do remember several weeks, like, yeah, up to
two weeks, I didn't know what I'm going to do.
I was calling my friends and saying, look, there is this Chat
GPTF thing, Maybe you heard about it in it can code, it can
produce a lot of interest in it, can generate a lot of
information. But what should I ask it?
So what would you ask? What, what, what should be the
case which we're solving together?
A lot of my friends, they just said, yeah, I would.
I don't know, just write a poem or something like this is not
interesting to to write a poem, write a poem.
A person can do it to write a programme, but what programme
should be about? I don't want to write in your
YouTube on your windows, but I want to write something.
And then I came to YouTube. I watched a normal, I just, I
was typing use cases of GPT coding something like this.
So just, you know, keywords which should bring me.
Yeah, I was watching a lot of videos and then one guy actually
shared, he said, oh, by the way, you can create your own GPT
charts in Telegram. And this is how.
And then it was like 40 minutes long video and where he was
explaining step by step how you do it, but with the source code.
And then you could copy this source code.
And this is this was for me the the 1st and the starting point.
I said, oh, I can create my own chat bot in, in, in Telegram,
which will be AI powered. And I, I just took idea of the
guy took his code which he shared publicly said, yeah, you
can play around. I started with these 35 lines
and then a load. I was asking also YouTube to
help me when I was meeting problems in, in my development
beside reading articles. At some point it had to be
beside speaking to ChatGPT itself and asking it to explain
me line by line what's happening here.
I was using also said YouTube podcast.
And then effectively my code grew from 35 lines to 5000 lines
within half a year. And all of this was done because
people were able to share the knowledge with the newcomer in
the way that I didn't even have to know.
Knock the door, call, call someone.
It was all a valuable for me. You just need to know where to
to look for it, where to ask. That's beautiful.
Sorry I'm I might be a little bit long in my I'll I'll try.
No worries. I'm curious though because you
said this idea of I want to do something with code and AI
seemed interesting. I want to do something with AI,
so pairing them makes sense, especially with your history. 18
years in banking, it's nothing to scoff at.
Where did those ideas kind of pop up?
The story I think would be most interesting to start with where
it's plugged in into my mind. So as, as we briefly discussed
in the beginning, that speaking with people in airplanes and
airports is a little bit of my hobby, I would say.
And even when I feel tired or, you know, sometimes I might be
feel depressed because you have to travel.
You are leaving your family, you're going somewhere, you'll
meet some strange people, you know, and you, you're not always
sure what will be there. You're not every time flying to
vacation, This is what I would say.
And but then I, I said before I, I tried to put myself to the
situation where in my mind I say, yeah, it's your time, try
to speak, make this journey a little bit more fun and
interesting. And I was flying from Istanbul
to Vienna to one conference. And there was a guy sitting next
to me and we, he was very friendly.
We just started to chit chat. He was from robotics and I was
in banking at this time and I was already in my mind having
this idea that I need to make sabbatical pause.
So I, I will, my career grew very rapidly and fast, but they
reached not only external but also internal ceilings in, in my
head. And they thought it's, it's, I
was 38 years old, it was two years ago, I'm 40 now and it's
time when I need to take a pause and I need, I can and I should
step back a little bit, breathe out and see what's happening.
So you cannot be always in a race.
And the, and the I said I was very long time in a very active
race in banking, growing my career, growing businesses,
working in different countries, doing fantastic projects.
And I need to say I like banking.
Of course I, I love banking. So there is nothing in the
banking which wouldn't interest me or almost which I wouldn't
touch myself with my hands. And then we meet this guy and
he's the same, but from robotics.
And we start to speak. He asks me what is in banking.
I tell him about all the problem, all the geopolitical,
all the, all the problems which have in banks right now because
because of their regulator, so my, my, my core thing.
So and then he tells me about robotics and also how these
machine, why some robots are coloured in yellow, some in
blue. It it makes sense and and I
forgot many of things. I still have my notes in my
telephone, but the and he tells me also how what are the next
steps in robotics when when the home cleaner will appear?
And then he says, yeah, this is all interesting.
But the most interesting thing what appeared just a couple of
months ago is cha GPT OK. And well, surprised me says,
yeah, it's growing like, I don't know at this time, like 5
million users a week or something.
OK, this is cool. But for me, frankly speaking,
this is, yeah, it's, it's it. It doesn't really mean that this
is a great thing. It means that people like it.
But as they like it, they might stop liking it.
And then I ask, but what can it do?
So what is the value there? And then he tells me, yeah,
these can generate things. And also he mentions and code.
And this is where I think the neurons in my head started to
talk to each other. For years I was having this idea
to learn Python. But as a banker, active banker,
you never have time for this. And then I think, oh, I'm
thinking to take a pause in my career and not to get rusted
during this pause and to have a look what's happening in banking
and to come back. I can spend some time on on
doing something. And this is where I thought I
will learn Python. Nice.
I'll I'll spend myself and I was always thinking, should I go to
some classes to find some teacher or go to some online
courses? A lot of my friends did it, but
I I don't like the way how usually these courses are
structured because they're not they're not practical enough
for. Me.
It's very theoretical. Usually and they and they and
they keep explaining you like when you go to IT, course they
would say right now. And I understand why they would
say let's talk about IT architecture first.
Yeah. So like you have a front end, a
back end, you have a middle man in sometimes this is where you
have your database and you have different days and then after
half an hour you listen to a lot of information and you haven't
done yet anything. And.
For me it was always a little bit difficult, so you need to
wait a lot until you're allowed to do something.
Like the gold is later. Yeah, and, and with the charge
of it here, I realized I can still pass this.
I can, I can stop myself from doing something I don't need.
And no one is watching at me. If I fail, I fail.
But if I do, I can already generate some product.
And, and this is where I came back.
I, I, I bought my I I had a more older computer this time.
I bought a new laptop at at this time because I wanted to be sure
that AII didn't know what does it mean to to have a IGPT
chatbot on my computer. And I wanted to be sure that it
will work perfectly that I will not lose any minutes, you know,
on additional downtime or waiting time when, when the
server responds to something at at this time.
And then I started I and then I opened it and I understand.
I don't know what to ask. And this is what happened.
I started to call my friends and saying.
What should I ask? Yeah, exactly.
Let's think together. Let's create a great project.
Let and everybody said, Nick, are you insane?
Really like you're a banker. What are you asking?
What what kind of code in what is a Python?
Stop it. So if you want to have a pause,
have your pause. Please don't just relax.
Basically. Yeah, you, you deserve maybe
some, some, some of holidays. Spend it with your family, with
your wife, with the kids. So please, so you're, you're not
an Elon Musk. And I said, OK, that's your
point of view. And then I call somebody else at
some point. Yes I I went to YouTube I found
this 35 lines of codes and this is where my journey started.
I love that. And it started in a way my
family was not really happy at some point in time, because I
think after one week, it started from a hobby where you, I, I
don't know, one hour, 2 hours a day, ask something.
I actually very quickly realized what's a powerful tool I have in
my hands. And then also using my business
perspective, I realized how many things I can do myself here.
That's I, I actually started to work.
I was waking up in the morning, bringing kids to school at
kindergarten, then opening laptop at 9:10 AM in the morning
and 10:00 PM in the evening. And I'm not joking, every day
for a period around like 5-6 months, I was doing this daily
and I was coding and coding. At first it was just copy,
paste, copy, paste. Very soon my code grew to more
than 200 lines and at this time, I think already 200 lines was
not possible to give to Chajibiti and to get the answer.
So this is where I came to an idea.
OK, now I need to learn code, not only asking proper questions
to Chajibiti, but I need to understand what is written here.
And then, you know, like three or four months later, I started
to code myself and I started to have a fight with Chajibiti
because I'm, I was my front end, for example, was, and for my
first projects on Telegram. And they have some libraries
which were updated after the latest release of ChatGPT, of
course. And then like, for example,
iogram, there is a wonderful library which supports a
synchronous approach in, in, in, in, in functions execution and
iogram 3 plus chatbot didn't know about it.
They knew everything about two and the the the logic, the the
the way how you speak with this library differed greatly in some
parts. Yeah, newer version.
And this is where I even had to to go to to the to the source
library. I think this is how it's called
some you, you know this. So I had to find the original
description of of this library and then actually to to make
myself the code only asking some things from ChatGPT.
And when he was giving me I'm saying no, no, no, no, no, right
now this function cannot be. Yeah, that's not it.
Anymore like this, this tool is is not valuable anymore in this
new library. And yeah, so from a
technological point of view, I think this is this was my path.
Again, just think, I mean, you started two years ago with this
dream of, OK, I'm going to do this, and you actually have done
that so far. Yeah, I think back when I saw
ChatGPT, first and foremost, there was this whole doom and
gloom scenario that our jobs are going to be worthless basically
because it can generate anything, code included.
And now you, when you've played around with it, you already hit
against some of the limitations, right?
And those limitations are constantly being accommodated
for. When there's a new major
release, then, yeah, it's basically a snapshot of history.
And when new libraries or new major versions come out, it
doesn't have the knowledge of what is current.
It has the knowledge of kind of the history that it's built
upon. So that's already one of the
limitations. But kind of going into what you
know now, where do you see ChatGPT?
I've also never met someone that has started their programming
journey with ChatGPT already out there, which is very new and
very recent. The ChatGPT, I think it's, it's
a great and wonderful tool with what they've done.
And I'm, I'm personally much thankful to open the eye and
also from the point of view how they approach this area, because
before they did it and I also, I, I, I studied how, how they
arranged they have these two funds which are sort of
independent that the investors, the financial investors cannot
affect on decisions of, of open AI the way how they bring this
to to people. And I think they they did a very
important, very important present.
I don't want to be very general and to sound to say this.
Like idealistic? Idealistic but but inside my
heart I genuinely believe that they gave a present to the
humanity which humanity will realize within some time.
So effectively what they did, they took from big corporates,
which which usually right now control the technology
development. They took it from them and they
gave it to people and allowed people at a very low cost at
almost no limits and barriers to test and try.
And then it's only the question to your creativity.
And for me it was very clear in the beginning when I had this
first code, I understood that there are no limits in how I can
use it. Limits mostly in my head and
also in my Kindle attitude. So like I right now I have some
people who try to follow my example.
So I have my friends who now following my path for last two
years and they also come and say, Hey, Nick, can we do this
together as well and say yes, but you are coding yourself.
And I will explain you how you should use charge BTM and other
so. So I will explain you my path
because I want to share this with you.
You will learn it from your angle, definitely.
You will know different things, which even I didn't pick up
because we are using our brain to dive in into this area.
And even if two people speak into ChatGPT about the same
thing, they will most likely get yeah, at least 10 to 20%
different information. Not because ChatGPT hallucinator
whatsoever, because the way how we ask questions and how we
digest information would be different.
Even if it's my close friend or the the colleague with whom I
worked for many, many years. So what I'm doing right now, I'm
also sharing this with people, with my friends.
I have couple of projects which are doing together.
So and my friend, one of my school friends, he was
complaining saying, yeah, but I'm not a code that let's do the
following you will code and I will just tell us right now.
So this is what you need to do. I, I explain you how you use
ChatGPT here, I explain you where you can watch some YouTube
videos, see if you have a problem.
And then you reach to this point when the product is deployed and
then you come back and we discuss again and people
complaining about this a little bit.
But after some months, I see how inspired they become because we
start to discuss here problems of architecture, of cloud
architecture. And the person says, yeah, but
I'm, I'm, I'm just a school teacher.
I, I would never expect myself to know these words now.
And I think this is a big thing which ChatGPT brings.
US interesting. And this role should remain.
So answering your question, what's what's coming next?
I don't see chargeability as a, you know, like a utility.
It's more it's it's, it's a source of information, which by
the way is not always correct at the at the last instance, but
but it gives you a very solid parts and blocks of information
which you might be missing in the way that you can digest
because every time you generate the question.
And when you get the answer, it is tailored for your answer,
tailored for your, for your question.
And that's why you can learn, I think from ChatGPT much faster.
You, you cannot learn everything from ChatGPT.
But it in, in my case and in case of people with whom I, I
wouldn't say consult, I'm, I'm, I'm sharing this knowledge.
It gives like 60% of information which you need to, to develop
your own projects easily. Yeah, 40% you need to gain
yourself. You need to speak to people, you
need to go to conferences. So you need to be active,
proactive, can do. Attitude is extremely important.
My favorite thing is that when we start sometimes the project
we discuss, so let's do this and this and then yeah, but this is
impossible. And say, yes, this is
impossible. And This is why it's so
interesting. It's impossible not because
it's, I don't know, against physics law.
It's impossible only because we don't know how to do it.
And it means if we don't know how to do it, we can understand,
we can get this information and then it will become possible.
I really admire that can do attitude.
And I was actually thinking back to a conversation I had a few
days ago because from CVA we get time to share knowledge, we get
a few hours of consultancy and I started a project which is
basically like split wise. Split wise, you start a group,
you do payments and then eventually you can split the
bill of all the payments you've done.
And I've used it on many holidays.
It's very nice, but currency conversion, it doesn't do, it
has some limitations. So I thought, OK, let me build
it myself. It's fun.
I'll try it on new technology and I usually don't do that.
So I found people that are really good at starting better
than me. So I get an easier kind of job
starting. But already then we talked about
kind of database migrations and schemas and kind of the essence
of it. We haven't actually started.
I feel like the skill of executing and not actually just
leaving your ideas to rest is becoming more and more
important. And I was having this chat with
one of my friends and he says I have many ideas.
But then I think of the feasibility of those ideas.
And if I don't think they're feasible or if I see competition
has already had a big market share, then I don't execute on
those ideas whatsoever. And then I don't end up
executing at all actually, because I haven't found an idea
that I think is worth executing and I have a hard time starting.
I have many ideas. I don't have the same limitation
where I think of feasibility, yet I don't execute.
And then I see people like you and more and more people pop up
that really hone their craft in executing and doing many
projects and learning on the fly, and I think that's
fascinating. Thank you.
Thank you for this. But it also comes of course with
a with a price. First of all, it's a very
interesting how one of my colleagues, Ben, he called it
when I told him it was one of my early introductions.
Some people introduced me to to this wonderful guy and he is for
a long time in VC area in venture capital.
And I told him, look, Vanna, I cannot what do you do?
And they say I cannot tell you what I do because I'm not doing
one thing. I'm running in parallel the
project like on on retail market.
I have this chatbot which is now used by 10s of thousands of
people and it's keeping growing like 4000 per month.
I have AI tutor to help originally my daughter to to
pass her exams in order for her to have additional tutor to the
real human beings which can speak with her 24/7 if she
needed. I'm also at at this time I'm
having this personalisation marketing tool which I developed
like a best offer which is developed which is defined by
AI. Based on your previous
correspondence, I'm having this idea of building a chat bots for
websites just instantly within minutes and not paying for
developments and and waiting weeks and months then and then
he says, yeah, OK Nick, so this is called a spaghetti approach.
Is. It OK, what is this?
And he says this spaghetti approach is when you take
spaghetti out of the plate, throw to the wall and see what
sticks and see what sticks, what falls, that falls, what sticks,
what that sticks. And and you carry on this.
And this is one way to do the to, to formulate this.
Another one again from I, I get some inspirations in my life.
I read the history of all key developers in in this world.
And sometimes many times I was rereading.
Yeah, of course, like Steve Jobs is is I was, I was personally
upset when when he died because I realised that there is no
chance in my life to meet him in person until he was alive.
I had this feeling that, yeah, we have from even though I was
in banking, but I was reading about him a lot because you can
see in the product, when you hold the product, you can see
the person behind it. And if you see how the product
evolves, you're, and especially when you're from industry, like
I was connected also from banking to production, how
difficult it is to to create such things.
You have gazillions of people whom we need to explain what
they should do. You need to control this.
And for me, of course, everything goes with with in
Apple, with Steve Jobs and with the team which he was able to to
assemble. There is this theory about A&B
people, which we can speak a little bit later, but another
example would be Leonardo da Vinci.
So I I was, yeah, we all know he is so brilliant, etcetera.
But then I I once read and then listened again about him a
podcast. And it was during the time when
I haven't this spaghetti approach, when I realized he was
also having a spaghetti approach.
Because if you go through all the things which he was doing,
he succeeded only in 10% of he finished like 10% of his
project. There is an enormous amount of
things which he started. He tried it and it was not bad
project. He just at some point of time re
prioritised. He said, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
doing the 16 Capella. I think he even did it twice in,
in, in, in his, he was stopping and then coming back after some
time. And I think when you develop in
something, it's it's a good approach.
Looking again, a little bit of my example and resonating what
I'm saying, I leaved all this not only from positive side that
it sounds so bright and wonderful, but also from
negative side. I had idea of this news
aggregator in my mind and this is where I get deeper to AI to
embeddings. You know, embeddings is a is a
fantastic topic. So which is extremely hard to
understand if you're not technical guy myself.
And I'm I'm open to say this, it took me I think more than a
month just to digest the concept of 1000 dimensional universe and
multi multi universe corporation which is happening inside
embeddings. After I I sort of understood it,
I said OK, now I need to test and try and they again locked up
myself. I was already coding and said I
will write a wonderful tool. I will create and use
aggregator. It will read all the newest with
the help of opening eye and they appear.
I can vectorise almost everything in this world, all
the information in the real time.
And I will aggregate the news. I will understand that the same
news is published here, in, in Netherlands, in, in Germany, in
Switzerland, in China, wherever. And I will understand what are
the similarities between this news and differences.
And then I had idea that's GPT, another GPT agent will come and
will rewrite this news in the comprehensive manner, keeping
only most important information, take it out bias, eliminate
manipulation, etcetera. I and I tried to do it myself.
I did it myself, but I locked up like for three months.
It was extremely difficult. And I had this feeling, oh, I
need to be faster, faster, faster.
And then January this year, I stop.
I I say, yeah, now the product is live and there are several
disappointments. First of all, no one needs it
because no one knows about it. And for me to bring it to
people, it takes even much more effort than to develop,
especially when I'm alone. The second thing together with
me, there were multiple teams run in the same way.
And they were not bankers for lunch coding.
They were data engineers. They were machine learning
specialists. They were programmers for 20
plus years. And there were multiple teams
and they were developing the same product I was developing.
But in their view, yeah. And I, I, this is where I again
realised that it's very important to do things faster to
bring and to, if you're building not a project for yourself, but
a product which should be available in the market, you
need to bring it to the market as fast as possible because most
likely while you're doing this, you will lose some time.
The second thing is always team up, find people, find partners
because this will save a lot of time.
There are smart and wonderful people.
Maybe if you discuss with them, they would like to join you.
And then together you can do it not even 2 times faster, but 3,
five times faster. And I learned this lesson with
this project which I had. It's still it it's wonderful
project. Everybody who looked at it says
it's wow, it's so cool, but it it's not popular at the moment
and I understand what needs to be done further to improve it.
But for me, the most and the biggest value from that project
was not only knowing the first one would be knowing about
vectorization. Now I use it in many other
projects and this is fantastic tool within AI universe.
But the other thing is I understood I need to team up and
this is where I came outside and I started to grow faster my
social network in in technology and they started to invite
partners. And when I speak to potential
partners, for me, this can do attitude is extremely important.
Of course, we discuss and then one of one of the great guys
with whom I work here says we, we are partners.
We're equal in we know every project which we do.
We say we're, we're, we're even here.
And I like a lot what what he says.
He always time I says, look, can we can, we can we do this and
that? And he says, yes, we can, but I
don't know how yet. And and this is for me every
time I'm fantastic. I said, Robert, you're, you're,
you're great. Like because this is also my
approach. If it's theoretically not
contradicting physics law, yes, we can.
But the only thing, yeah, I just don't know.
And it means that I will invest my time, I will spend, I will
speak to people, I will get this knowledge.
I will test and try and I will. I will.
I will get to this point. Speed is and especially
nowadays, kind of the name of the game in the industry from
what I've seen. And because that is so a friend
of mine recommended this podcast episode with Lex Friedman.
It's very recent and this Dutch guy called Peter Levels.
I was checking it out actually before our conversation and I
still have to listen through this full conversation, that
podcast episode. But I followed the guy on
Twitter actually quite a lot. He was one of the first people
that I saw actually apply AI in a piece of software that he
built. This was before ChatGPT came
out. You could take a picture of your
living room and you could basically with AI, you could
have a different style of living room for you, right?
The furniture would rearrange. You could say, OK, I want it in
a Western style. And you would actually see that
style applied. And I played around with it when
I just got live, I don't know how, but somewhere through
Reddit maybe, I came upon it and I immediately showed it to my
friends and we thought, OK, this is really cool.
Within a week, there was a paywall.
You could only do it within a few days or you could only have
so many attempts in a day and then you would have to pay.
And he expanded on it and I think he did that by having
something live. It was already very tangible.
It worked. Basically super simple idea.
Take a picture of your living room.
It's a redecorator. You don't have to have a person
that says, OK, you can do it in this style.
You can just play around with it and you see the result.
And then all of a sudden you had to pay for it.
And it worked. People paid for it because they
were like, OK, it was working before or I heard about it and
now I have to pay. OK, I'll do it.
I want actually see if this works out.
And apparently he's built up many projects.
Out of 100 projects, he's built up 95%.
Never actually made it because the idea wasn't feasible or
people didn't want to spend their money on that idea.
And only he says when there's a people actually want to put
their money down is when your idea is feasible.
And those five ideas that he had, one of them was the one I
explained. There's four more are very
interesting. And then I listened because this
is what my friend told me actually further down the
episode, he's going to break down technology wise how he does
it. And everything is super bare
bones. Everything is from like a
technology of 15 years ago because he's super effective at
it and he can go faster than anyone else with those
technologies, right? If you're most comfortable with
that technology, then you go really fast.
You can test your assumptions really quickly.
And I'm like comparing that to what we use nowadays, especially
like serious a consultancy organization.
We make a lot of enterprise grade software, but that also
requires a certain level of risk appetite, right?
Companies don't want their software to be risky.
The risk appetite is usually very look very much lower
because of branding, because of image.
It needs to be resilient software.
And with that level of quality, you have to have a bigger time
investment. And then I compare that to this
one guy who lives not even in a home base in the Netherlands
anymore. He lives in Portugal.
He's lived in 150 countries on his couch, creating projects,
developing software and going way faster than companies can.
I'm like, man, should that be the way to go when you're
actually developing your ideas and your startups?
I feel like it should be because speed really matters apparently.
Yeah, I, I, I totally agree. Speed matters a lot.
And again this is from also from the example which which you gave
that a person came to this idea that you need to develop it as
fast as possible. Also from from projects which
which I was doing. There are two two things which
are popping up in my mind in this regards.
The first one, I would like also to share the live hack which I
recently got from one of, I can say this is a professor from IMD
and I met with him for coffee. And IIMD is a Business School
in, in, in Switzerland, in Lausanne and a great guy, Jim.
And we had a coffee and I told him, look, Jim, I have this idea
of yeah, instant development of chat boards of web advisors.
And I already know that it's possible to do that.
It can be developed any chat boards right now, me and my
partner, we can develop within two up to 10 minutes just using
the information from the website and we can teach the model
simultaneously how to answer the question.
So we can make it hallucination as limited as possible.
We can very make it very peculiar and it would actually
replace the person and but we're still in final stage.
And I said, look, my plan is the following.
I want to go very fast. And Oh yeah, tell me, what do
you mean in the past? And I said it was in in end of
July, this discussion this year, yeah.
And then he said, yeah, so tell me what is fast?
And they said fast for me is the following that 8th of August, we
finalize the products better tests.
So it's full life. We plummet, we bring it to the
market, we share it on all social media.
I spend my money on on bringing this to people.
We have our first 100 clients and together with first 100
clients, I go to investors and I propose them to bring something
up to 1,000,000. And we spend it exclusively on
the marketing because we we need to also to make sure that this
will be used by by people and they need it.
And then he said, no, this is very slow.
And he said, yeah, but why? And he told me a very good
thing, which I think a lot of guys who are developing tech
projects right now and want to do products should use.
So he told me, do the marketing before the product, don't wait
until it's done. You can actually build a
marketing campaign right now having a 200 bucks in your
pocket with the help of Meta and Google ads.
And you can just simply test, make a market feed test before
you spend all your time and effort on building the project
and even on the raising funds from investors and then
reporting to these investors and then going via all these pilots
and circles, which you'll have to go anyway.
And I like this idea. I don't think that he expected
me to be that quick, but within one week I started this campaign
in both in Meta and in Google. And yeah, within three weeks we
already knew in which countries this product is needed.
And this gave us and also it gave us insight on how much cost
one client on we've shown, we have shown our ad to one and a
half million of people in four countries.
We have measured the click through rate and then it was all
leading to our landing page website where we were describing
that we are in early stage and this is what you will get as
soon as we will finish. So leave us contact details and
as soon as it's done, we will we will share with you your robots
and then you can create this chat bots instantly we're on on
our portal. But all of this was done and we
have tested this idea much before we actually developed the
finalized idea. And I think this is one of the
again, life hacks which developers should use.
It costed me a little bit more than 200 because again, I wanted
to go to slightly bigger scale. So, but yeah, within a couple of
grands you can run a real marketing campaign and you can
understand is your product needed anywhere in in the in the
world or or not. Yeah, which is a must.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, before building,
if you can get those insights for me, this is interesting,
right, Because I see people create these ideas and all of a
sudden your business background becomes very relevant and you
also have the marketing because you need to understand what
market you're in and if there's an actual need for it.
And then you also need the execution skills more so on the
software development, because you actually have to create
something that is able to go live and might be able to go
evolve and. You need to be able to
understand what bugs might pop up and be able to fix it because
customers are customers and customers need to be happy.
Otherwise your product is just doomed with how social media
nowadays can kind of transfer in reputation and brand.
So it's a whole lot that you need to understand.
That's why I really like that you said, OK, pair up with
people that have knowledge of certain domains.
You can do it together. I think that is great advice and
you can also amp each other up with this can do attitude, yet
still it feels like you need a lot of skills in one basket to
actually succeed in the end. Yeah.
And chemistry with this teaming up again in, in my life and in
banking, I was responsible for building teams.
And right now I, I gave myself even a harder task.
I decided to build a team not of my team, but team of partners.
So people who are much cleverer, smarter and even more capable
in, in certain areas than I am. And that we work together on
projects driven by idea and together such teams, it's much
more difficult because even now people sometimes they they come
and they say, yeah, can we work together?
But I would like to have a salary.
I would like to have a paycheck. So can can we can we agree that
like I'm I'm ready to bring all my effort and which is which is
very true. A lot of smart and bright
people. But with, with such attitude,
when you're, it's, it's for me, it's always a question that you
have to bring something before you, you take something.
And with all the partners and, and my good friends with whom we
could create something together, it was exactly the opposite.
At first we exactly like I said, that we bring something into and
none of us ask anything for, for the return.
And then we see what we have already done together.
We think what we can do further. And from this we move.
It's not that. I think especially on the early
stage, people like to, you know, and they had the results
multiple times when you have a group of guys and say, oh, do we
have this wonderful idea? Oh, yeah, this will be a
Unihorn. Yeah.
And then people always just start, yeah, I want to have 30%
of shares of. This Unihorn it starts.
And they start to divide things and split things which do not
exist. And they very fast in this cases
become demotivated because as you said, I, I think you even
put it very mildly. Any product has bugs.
There is no, and there is no possibility.
I, I don't believe that there are coders, programmers or
anyone who can deliver the product from the first hand
without any errors, without any bugs.
You know, is it a bug or a feature?
Sometimes my my favorite part, another my favorite part is this
demos when everything works and then you come to your first
client, yeah, or a friend or whoever and say this is
wonderful, this is how it works and say, wow, fantastic.
And yes, you can look and you and then it doesn't work.
Yeah, a beautiful. Demo effect, yeah, with my chat
board, I had this even in in front of my group, London
Business called group. I sent to them look, I started
to call, they developed this chat board and and said Oh yeah.
And then I sent the link and then again, my lessons are
learned. So when I send the link, they
ask me something that's all like, you know, colour could be
different. And they said, I thought to
myself, Oh yeah, it's a good idea.
It's a good idea the colour. And they immediately changed the
colour in the prom version and accidentally I broke something
and then the whole board. Just stopped on yeah.
And and then fifty people, they open and say naked.
Actually one of them or two told me that it doesn't work.
All the others just made just and and and and you have to go
via. So you need to learn the lesson.
Never do changes in prom version and better release the new
rollouts during night, so when you have less users.
Yeah and and yeah, never do anything ad hoc.
Try to do some tests before you even you are certain and you're
sure that this is how it should work.
Yeah, if you want, they can tell another example of.
I have one question before we get into that because you
mentioned people coming together and already talking about kind
of the slice of the pie that is this product.
How many shares or what have you?
I've seen people and they were really good friends of mine go
into business together and I learned this very late because
we didn't stay in touch. COVID happened.
It just, I'm really bad at staying in touch with some
people. But I had dinner with one of the
guys and he said we actually started the business, me and the
other friend, basically it was the three of us going into uni.
And he said it went really well. And then we had a decision on
how to expand. And he basically said it's going
to be this way. And the other guy didn't agree.
And he said it's going to be this way.
Otherwise I'm, I'm going to stop basically like very much my way
or the highway to a point where the other guy just said, OK,
just buy me out and I'll leave. And I'm like, man, these guys
are really good friends. I was part of that same friend
group. It's a shame to see that happen.
I said, are you still friends with him?
He says absolutely not. Like I felt stabbed in the back
basically. So from this story where friends
start up something and it fails, I've heard that multiple times
kind of on this podcast or off this podcast.
And it makes sense then that people kind of defend themselves
and say, OK, this is kind of the arrangement.
You have a way bigger business background than I have.
So how do you figure out kind of the minimum requirements to
actually start operating? Or should that be anything from
your view? Or how do you then team up with
people to make sure that doesn't happen?
It's a very interesting combination which I came across
again within examining the examples of good companies and
failed companies. And I think it's it's very
interesting. At least I shared it with some
people and they said, yeah, this, this is something we
should have known before we started our startup.
The you need to be both you, you need to when you start thing and
especially you're in in the position of the founder, 1 of
founders. You need to be on the one side,
very trustworthy yourself also put a lot of trust into your
partners. So it should be unconditional
trust in order to go together. And that's why this can do
attitude. That's why for me it's always
and for I think for all the successful which which I know
companies and and the projects which I know about, it was
always we trust that each of us would bring the best which we
could into the project. But the other side should be
unfortunately very corporate. So you should from the day one,
you should agree who is doing what in the company and who is
the leader and final decision maker.
So, and it's coming a lot from management from yeah, from this
is this is something which they teach in every business call.
Like I'm, I'm trying to remember any good comparison example, but
maybe it would be like, you know, when people try to survive
and on the boat in in the ocean and how they behave, how they
split the resources, what they do, how they arrange their
routine. So this is a start up
effectively, yes. So if you're in the middle of
the ocean and you have limited resources, you have absolute
uncertainty around you. The worst thing which can happen
that everybody has their own opinion on what they should do
in this situation, chances for everyone to die extremely high.
And I will not bring right now a lot of stat statistics, but I'm
sure that everyone can Google and check.
And this is the usual conclusion.
So starting with all the trust, with all the respect to each
other, you should always agree, OK, Within our team, we're all
equals. But strategic decisions, how we
behave, how we do it is under this guy.
And I have some projects where I have to lead.
I have some projects where I said, yeah, I step out.
I take from this leading position, I take this.
I have an interesting project where I have a risk control
role, which I think I'm doing perfectly, but we have another
guy who is really responsible for direction where we go.
And for me it's nothing about agor or like having my own
vision. I have my own vision.
But in our start up in that particular project, we have
agreed that he's the boss and two other guys.
We, we all have three of us, we're doing something and we all
have our area of control and competence.
But all the decisions, final decisions should be taken by by
one guy and then and then we can do another project.
It's it's a different, this is where I say, guys, I know that
you are maybe smarter than me here, but look at this is a
project where I think we need to give the leading role to me and
I will, I will guide us through using all my knowledge through
all the problems, but we shouldn't have a situation.
A friend of mine from Lisbon called me recently.
I started my blogs about I, I like to share some knowledge,
some some ideas which I have and tactical knowledge.
And he signed up in Telegram and he then he said, oh, Nick,
you're doing this. So he called me and appeared
that he's also in start up area. They made some see some several
rounds already of fundraising for the project.
It's blockchain related. So they started here like four
years ago something and he told me that one of the biggest
problem they have that in the beginning they have agreed that
there is one guy who is CEO, but they also said despite his CEO,
every of us have 25% voting rights.
Oh yeah. Equal divide.
And he says we're in a deadlock for last two years.
And you know, blockchain had it's rise and it had it false.
And, and right now it's a very difficult area, especially when
you have funds from investors and you need to deliver
something. Oh yeah, you need to not to
pivot. You need to spin, spin around
like, like a like a crazy to find a way you how to deploy
your, your idea in the reality. And these guys, he said.
We, we cannot do anything. You can't move them.
Yeah, because every time we say we try together and they say,
yeah, everyone have the right to vote, every one of us.
And that's why. Yeah, if you have an idea,
persuade all the three guys. There are four people, as I
remember, persuade all the three people that this is a good idea.
And then everybody's coming from their angle.
And then, yeah, such, such start-ups will will not fly.
And this is, again, doesn't matter.
Is it a start up? Is it a large corporate that no
matter how you trust each other and you value each other
relationship, you always should have somebody who is as a leader
and otherwise other people should trust him and give him
this responsibility? How do you do that then?
Because you said in some projects you have this
leadership role, right and you fought for it and probably you
have that then there, but in other I.
Suggested I I didn't never fight it it.
Suggests that in the end it resulted in you having that
position. And for other projects you don't
have it right. But you still.
I mean, I would put myself in that situation.
And I love challenging things. I love ideas, but I also love
even more decision making and executing.
Yeah. So I could have it with me.
I could have it with someone else.
But if it is with someone else, I'm going to be very sharp and
I'm going to be very vigilant to still make sure that we're doing
the right thing, right. And if we fail, I'm not going to
challenge the decision that was made.
But I will make sure that we reflect and we learn from those
mistakes, because otherwise it's useless making mistakes.
Absolutely. So then I would be a bit more
vigilant in those positions and I because I haven't done that,
I'm not sure if I were to be able to let go in that way, how
how do you do that with not having the leadership position
that's in the other projects compared to the one where you do
have? I think this is where we are
coming to the to the area of ergo and this is what a lot of
smart people have a problem with.
And I also had had, yeah, I think I don't have much more the
problem with this. So when when you understand that
you can deliver things, when you have this feeling, you know,
it's one of the problems of this is coming from behavioural
economy. Even I'm, I'm having, I'm taking
a lot of my backpack of banking and finance and economy.
So you have there this even it's a part of a science of
behavioural economy where you try to predict what's happening
to the market based on how individuals within this market
behave. And there you have some biases
like hot hand bias, like like for example, if the person is a
basketball player is hitting five time 3 score, what would
you say? What is the probability of him
getting the score 6th, getting the three score sixth time in a
row? Yeah, it depends how you do
probability. If he's on fire, it's likely.
But if I look at it from a probability standpoint, the
probability is less and less, you know, the more he does it
back-to-back. So, but what, what, what do you
say that? What do you, what do you bet
that's you see, he's definitely on fire.
Like everybody says, wow, wow. And he's scoring and scoring.
And then comes the pivotal moment.
It should be #6 would you say he hits the score?
And my, my optimist side would say yes, yeah, yeah.
But likely it's not the truth. And and and the second part is
is more correct. So there is no such thing as a
hot hand there. There is indeed some
preconditions which led to the situation that he won and they
can affect partially that he will hit the next one.
So for example, like defence line will be depressed because
they saw him already several times hit in the score scoring
and they will be depressed because they think Oh yeah
again. But if they're not depressed, it
means it's a new situation from zero and there shouldn't be such
thing as a being on fire. And we're now like coming to to
the people who are trying to develop and things sometimes we
fall into this bias. We think, oh, we succeeded in
this small project, always succeeded in this big project or
we made such a wonderful career there.
We first of all, we are awesome. We are uncoppable.
Yeah. So we are fire, we are
irresplicable, etcetera. And with the life circle, I
think it's very important at some point to stop yourself and
just say why am I thinking So what is really happening on this
basketball match? How does the do I still see the
defence line, these people? Do I still see my partners?
Maybe my team has changed already and there are much
stronger guys next to me and I shouldn't be scoring.
I should give a pass to them because the other team is also
developing and many people, and I think it's also connected with
the age. So from this 30 to 40 years,
this is where usually old people are on fire.
So we already have knowledge, we have ability and we have a lot
of life power to deliver this. And this is where people think,
yeah, I'm unstoppable. I I can do everything.
But all of us, yeah, all of us, all of people who want to to
develop things, we think that this is coming because we are so
unique. And I think it's very important
to to from time to time to stop and to ask yourself what is
happening around you. Never think that you are unique.
Never think that you are on fire, because on fire doesn't
exist. It was previously conditions
which led to your success. Try to understand these
conditions and try to multiply them and bring them into your
new projects. Don't think they're just popping
up somewhere. You will, you will do this.
And this is what comes with the with the teams and projects from
my view. And This is why for me, it's not
not a problem. I think I've been to different
teams where I was sometimes forced to go to the to the
position of not, not a frontline.
Yeah, sometimes I was forced to go to the front line when indeed
I was resistant. I was saying I don't want to be
a leader of this. And and then I was No, no, no,
it's, it's, it's you. You are taking the
responsibility and, and, and, and decision and decisions also.
And all of this brought me to this understanding every time
when you meet with people, you think you try, you know, maybe
it's like a consultant in from from this point of view, you try
to assess the project, you try to assess people team and assess
it independently, like step outside and look at yourself
also independently evaluate you versus others.
And then if you want to show off and to show that your agor is
and you are the number one, then of course it wouldn't be
possible to to take the second and third role.
But if you can step out and say, OK, my target, I really want to
build Unihorn. I know that on the way to
Unihorn, like I, I can see this, I can foresee this.
But the Unihorn is even behind this wall.
So we don't even, we can't even see it because there is a lot of
things hidden. We need the people of certain
scales and I need to have in my team together with me people who
would be able to help me and the team to to solve the problem.
And if it means that I should step down, then then it's fine.
If it means that I should even I don't want, you know, many
people also come into another conclusion that it's good to
have, you know, like 5% shareholder and they had this as
well. So when people will come into me
and say, yeah, look, we want to help, we want to brainstorm with
you, but we don't want to take any responsibility.
So in a way, yeah. So like, let us be just a minor
shareholder there and we'll see here.
So like, I'm not risking anything.
No. If it's like smoke insurance,
yeah, I've heard it. Smoke insurance, Yeah.
And. For me, I, I in the beginning I
was even considering, but then I said, no, guys, we're, we're not
flying anywhere because it's, it's not the way you, you need
to bid every time when you do something.
And it's also I'm, well, I'm speaking, I'm, I'm, I think that
it's important to mention it's not only about start-ups.
I think it's about everything, any project.
And in banking it works the same way.
If you want to succeed in banking in your career, it's the
same like succeed in start up and and and building a big
company, maybe not a Unicorn, but a big one.
You need to put your skin into the game and you need to to have
this can do attitude and you need to focus on the result, not
on yourself. Yeah.
So if you can do this, then you will get a lot of good
experience. And even if you don't succeed,
you will reuse this experience further.
But yeah, as as you said, I also see this and this is very, very
cool to see young guys with whom I meet.
Sometimes I speak. And recently I also, I'm, I'm
meeting now a lot of people and we, we discuss their idea
because my thing is the following.
I, I have no secrets. I share all my ideas.
And if somebody want to take it, I say take it because first of
all, most likely you will call me as well to be your partner
there. That's good.
And the and the and the second of all, even if we'll do it in
parallel, we'll do a different projects.
Yeah. And when I share with you, you
share also with me. And maybe it will lead me to
some ideas which which I didn't think of.
So that's why I don't understand people actually who are saying,
yeah, I have a lot of ideas and especially in banking, yeah, I
have a lot of ideas. But oh gosh.
And this is what, you know, no, I no, I don't.
So can we discuss? Like yeah, but I even had
situations when people were saying let's sign NDA.
Oh really? From the get go.
Yeah, that's quick. And I say OK, But actually for
me it's also not a problem. I'm not going to share this idea
with anyone, but I was also trying to explain to, to to
these guys that it, you don't think that you are the smartest,
even you were a couple of times before, even you think that your
idea could be stolen. It's not you.
And moreover, to succeed right now, especially with new
projects, you need to acquire as fast as possible as many
talented people to you as possible.
And this is not possible without sharing.
Start, share, start speaking. And then some people would come
to you and say, yeah, let's do this together.
I can help you. I really love that perspective.
I think it's, I never realized that like having a hot streak or
being on fire is actually just BS and you have to objectively
look at, OK, how did that factor into where your success was?
And are the circumstances the same?
Right. Because you start from scratch
every single time. I do understand that if you have
that over and over and over again, it can really feed into
this ego that you are basically #1 and that you should be in
that leadership position. And I really like that you keep
a look at it objectively and see where it's a good fit and see
where it's not a good fit and keep it to that.
I don't know if it's my upbringing, but I always was
raised to be humble, which is also why that probably feeds
into imposter syndrome. And things are going well.
I'm like, oh, it's probably luck or it wasn't really my factor in
there. So that's maybe the flip side of
it. But I have worked with people
that do really think that they're the best.
And from my standpoint, I could see where they're really good,
but I could still see those flaws.
And that is really hard to work with.
If you have a group with, let's say, all people that want to be
#1 then the competition is fierce and decisions cannot be
made because everyone wants their decision to win.
And when you have your standpoint with not ego involved
at all, I think that's very productive because then you can
objectively just have a discussion on the essence rather
than on the ego. Yeah.
And also you're bringing perspective of what can go
wrong, what can go good. And then it's not that you are
fighting with some John. He's having his point of view,
you're having yours. And then you're fighting with
each other every time you're doing this because you won't
succeed in the project or in the company.
And if you and we're coming again back to the chemistry,
right people. So you should trust, you know,
you know, there is a difference between trust and respect.
So it's Huck Adizas, 1 of professors from I think he's
Harvard professor. He, he didn't invent it, but he
formulated this very, very well that respect is when you allow a
person to have his own opinion. And trust is when you believe
that your interests are in the heart of the other person.
And building a project, building a team, building whatever
together requires not respect. It requires trust.
So respect means that everybody is inside their bubble and we
respect that you're in your bubble, I'm in your.
But this is not enough to build something.
You need to have trust in each other.
I, I need to wake up in the morning and I know that if I'm
doing a project with Patrick, thoughts of my prosperity, of my
success, part of Patrick's thoughts as well as my thoughts
I about how to make Patrick successful.
And, and then we can, we can have a fight on anything.
We can say no, the OED is ridiculous.
No, your end. But then we're sharing that
we're doing this because we are running to the same direction,
not because we are fighting with each other.
Yeah, yeah, that makes me think of then also the cause of why
many teams fail is just because of this partially ego and just,
I think also human nature of greed because it's always going
to be there like those discussions of really trusting
each other and having each other's best interests at heart.
I think that's perfect. When that is not the case, greed
pops up or you might be suspicious or skeptical and then
it all comes spiraling down. And people that are friends,
like that's where I, I feel like it hurts the most.
You have that feeling of trust, right?
Because you've been friends before, but then actually
financial like incentives come in.
By default. And greed pops out and you're
like, yeah, that's the hard part.
And that's why I think to agree from the day one is very
important. Yeah, I really like that.
And and you should do, you could also agree and say that
decisions are taken this way and financially in whatever we do,
everybody take, I don't know, ten, 1010% and then Patrick take
70%. And people should sign off this
from the day one. And then it also sorts the the,
the issue that's later on when something pops up.
You're not trying to say, yeah, but we, you know, we had this
and I the situation can be that, yeah, I agreed to this 10%, but
I thought I would have 50. And now it's developing only
because of me. Yeah.
And and this is where also the leadership role comes and that
there should be always this guy, a person whose response says no
guys, I am, I'm like a safeguards of our agreement and
this is what we have agreed and This is why we're doing this.
It might be we're coming to the station that it doesn't work, it
doesn't fly anymore Then OK, let's re evaluate what what
we're doing together. So our project is developing and
not developing. And then it's also very easy to
find the way, as you said, to buy out or not to buy out or to
rearrange and reagree, because this is also it's nothing is set
in stone there. There can be at some point of
time that's one team member indeed becomes so valuable and
important and he's pushing everything.
But if we all have trust in, in our hearts and between the
between the partners, everybody would say, yeah, like Mac right
now, yeah, or Michael right now is, is actually pushing us
further. So, so it's, it's fair because
again, we, we, we trust and we also controlled, controlled by
the manager. So you have to have this
combination, yeah, of emotional and also bureaucratical that
and, and then it, it takes away all the problems, all majority
of problems. And what what also I have seen
and this correlates with you what you're saying that
sometimes people don't even pronounce things, but they think
and they spend the valuable resources of thinking of this
greedy. Things like doom thinking.
Yeah, I I'm doing this. I'm I'm and why I'm not.
And then for years and then people actually die from inside.
Yeah, festers and, and, and again, for me, this is one of
important things, not only trust and clear agreement, but also of
the leader in any team to see that with this guy or with this
girl, something is happening wrong and there is something
happening in the mind and it's better to speak out and and to
help to to close it. Clear the air.
Yeah, Yeah, I've really enjoyed this conversation, Nick.
I must say from your journey of starting with software
development, rapid AI prototyping and a lot of
insights in team building and how you can create chemistry.
Before we round off, is there anything you still want to
share? 1 One thing which I think I
would like people who will listen to this will, will hear
is that and, and you, you covered this, but there is also
sort of perspective which I found out recently.
Start learning new things. And I hope that somebody who is
not coding will listen to us start coding as soon as
possible. I was listening to one of the
podcasts about again, ancient times how the writing appeared
and when it appeared. So it's assumed that I think
like 2 + 1000 years ago by Schumer civilization and they
were using commas and some some non alphabetic way of writing.
And at this time writing was corrupt.
Actually, you would have a farmer, you would have a
warrior, you would have, I don't know, a tax guy.
You would have some somebody who is who is doing the ceramics,
etcetera. And you would have a guy who is
writing and for many time it was a unique craft which a unique
skill which which people were learning and this was their part
of their work. And they see this as a lot of
similarity was what's happening right now with coding.
I think coding is the same as writing back 2000 years ago.
Right now there are still limited number of people who who
know what the Python is, how to how to structure the code, how
to write it. But they, I have this feeling
when I was listening to this podcast, I had this idea and,
and the feeling that actually we are going the same direction
right now. Everybody knows alphabet or any
or other types of writing. So we all can write by default.
Since we go to school, we are taught to do this and I think
with coding will happen the same.
So in some time, hopefully not in thousands of years, there
will be a situation that everybody would learn maybe
Python or similar or any other language as a second or third
language. And this would be just obvious
that you speak English and also you speak Python.
And then when, when, when you're when Patrick asks me like again,
Nick, when do we have our podcast?
I would reply something like Rand 7, which means that it'll
pick any day from from the week and, and we don't.
And it's so much more efficient if we use this also as a
language. And this brings a lot of
possibilities. So right now what I also my my
my experience gave me that you can learn coding very quickly if
you are consistent and if you really ask questions and you
have some idea in your head and then it brings you so much
interesting creative power. You can create products,
projects, you can create your own private chat bots.
AI is is is important aspect here or you can yeah, wake up in
the morning and say, yeah, I, I will be the next Helen Mask and
I will develop Twitter. Yeah, like it's not a rocket
science right now. You just need to write a certain
amount of code, you need to understand certain architecture,
you need to know about certain protection and the control of
the of the flows. But this is not the knowledge
which is unreachable. This is very reachable
knowledge. Yeah, it's out there.
And if you have this in mind and before that you were a banker or
a lawyer or you know, I met some consultants hotel who told me as
well that yeah, yeah, we don't call it.
We really, we don't touch it and they would do it, try it out.
And also one of my last advices would be it's always very
important how to bring the product and, and your idea as a
project to the market. And my overview right now is
that you have a web interface which is very easy and fast.
You can develop your own application like with a Swift
language for for iOS or you can use such platforms as I hope to
that WhatsApp would be one day. But for me it became a telegram.
So the platform which gives you this front end and libraries.
And actually you don't need to spend even weeks on developing
user interface which you can send to your friend.
You can easily do this. And my, my perspective here was
from the very beginning and still do something quickly, do
something fast. If, if it's just a private
project, still show it to someone.
And it's very easy to send a Telegram link or even a web page
then or wait until somebody will allow you to put it on on the
Apple Store or somebody will download it from from from your
website and do as simple as possible architecture in the
beginning. And we before that quickly
discussed with you that my first database was comma separated
value file, of course, which worked perfectly for one of the
projects until I had 1000 users there.
And then I just said, OK, I have 1000 users.
That's a nice problem to have. I need to switch to Postgre SQL.
But if I would ask ChatGPT from the very beginning, so give me
the proper structure, he would tell me learn Postgre SQL.
It's so smart, it's so good. But I don't need it until I
prove that my my my product, my project actually requires this,
this type of infrastructure. Yeah.
So the idea is, yeah, learn coding.
If you already know coding just out of your regular job time, do
projects, try them out, send it to your friends, see how it
moves. If you think it moves well, go
to Google ads and meta ads. Spend 200 bucks.
If you don't have it, bring a friend and say this is this is a
great project. Let's each of us spend 100 bucks
and we have a split revenue and potential share in this company.
Test it on the market, find your market niche and yeah, develop a
project, develop a project which can become product and then the
company. Because technology, especially
empowered by AI bring right now unlimit limitless possibilities
in, in, in this development. And they really want to see more
and more people doing, doing this, doing these things and
developing their their projects, as you said, for design, for
whatever, for hairstyles, for in every sphere.
There's so many things which could be done and and people can
do this now. Absolutely perfect.
Then I'm going to round it off here.
Thank you so much for listening. Leave a like if you liked it,
let us know in the comments what you thought and thanks again for
listening. We'll see you on the next one.