Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akil and if
you're interested in inspiring people creating an environment
where they can learn and grow and being a great leader, as a
manager than this episode is for you.
Joining me today is with them. Beste, he's worked at Oracle for
about 25 years and has always made sure.
His team is international and diverse.
Really cool. And he loves nature photography.
I'll put all the links to his socials in the description
below. Check him out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode.
I voted in the environment. We're always at since 20 years
managing people leading people where we are the environment we
have to make results. Yeah, we have to be successful
but if you focus too much on that, you don't do the opposite,
you don't get results. Because according to me, if you
go for the people first for the people in your team first and
you coach them, you'd you support them and you allow them
to make mistakes. Then the results will come
anyway. Yeah.
And the opposite is not true. Yeah.
I like that.
I mean, that's kind of what what my company.
This is a mantra as well as you invest in your people and
actually because of that and because of the environment and
the inspiration, you create results will follow.
And they might not be what you envisioned, but they might be
better as well. Which is exactly.
Yeah, that's uh, that's my fully belief that if you do it that
way, that people will get about 1,000 cells and they will be
evangelists of your company, you know what they're doing.
And also, if you go through the fire for them and support them,
then they will do the same for you and For the team.
Yeah, if you don't then why would I do it for you just lie.
It has that has that always been kind of a perspective because
you've been managing for a really, really long time.
Like years of experience wise, was that always kind of a mantra
when you started or is that something you picked up along
the way? No, I picked it up along the way
they start was the way I started was, I took over from someone in
the team who became a part-timer even back from five days to
three days, and at my company, three days, being a manager was
not allowed the eye to go over. And then I was one of them the
good pre-sales in that team and the mistake I made.
In the start I still did customers.
I still did the demos and presentations and so I was
focusing on customers and not focusing to enough on the
people. Yeah.
So then I learned that step away from where you're good.
Go into the management role the leader role and there I learned
step by step what was better to do to support people to coach
the people and still be there with customers but not beyond
the front stage. Yeah.
That is what I learned. Yeah, that's that's also kind of
a commonality that I've seen that people.
When they do move into management positions it's hard
to let go of what they're good at because that's what made them
good that's made. Probably what made them get the
position but they're not responsible for them anymore, so
they have to let go of that. Exactly what you see.
And I don't say that. I don't say, I was the best in
the team. But yeah, before I say that what
you see happening in sales teams, the best sales rep will
be the manager, then he has two issues.
He's maybe not capable to manage because that not in his, in his
veins, in his blood. Yeah, and he's missing the best.
Syrup. So what he's doing is 10 taking
over. The vessels wrapped your job and
the management role. Yeah.
Set up for failure. Exactly.
I did my opinion. Yeah those are two separate or
at least they should be separate, right?
Yeah. Because a manager should weigh
more focus on the input of their people and making sure they're
happy and can grow. Exactly.
And allow people to to to to to to to showing allow people to
learn. And also I always often say to
people who say, yeah, but they make mistakes and then say, I
have a Action. Do you know anybody on Earth,
who learnt walking without falling?
Yeah. Anyone.
Nobody and that's just a simple analogy, but it's a if you just
allow people to make mistakes and not over and over again, the
same mistake. Yeah.
But coach them down and help them and show them what the
other way of doing is. Then people learn a lot and
learned a lot and that was the way how I manage the team so now
I yeah I think that it in the right way.
Yeah because I want to, I want to start off kind of the
conversation in a way that you've had a Of experience
managing people if managers are listening to this because I'm
assuming they will what was kind of the or what would be the one
thing or even a few things that you would give as advice for
managers? Is it more so focusing about
people or yeah. What we say in that take it is a
statement from a from someone who is very famous and I'm far
away from that person with the statement is listen carefully.
If your people need to shine you are behind them.
You're not in front of them. If they won't need to be awarded
rewarded, you are behind them. If they are in danger, if your
difficulty here in front of them and that is, I think the major
thing you must know in mind, how to manage people and also
respect people and treat people in the way you want to be
treated. You know, in the way you want to
be managed or deleted, let let people in that way.
And I think that's the real way of managing people and leading
people to the highest achievements.
What would be an example of your people being injured, and you
would have to step in front of Yes, I was an environment for
many many years where I will manage pre-sales Solutions,
Engineers who are doing demos presentations and quite often.
You know, that the sales rep needs the pre-sales to support
in a demo, in an presentation and customer quite often.
The sales rep is under pressure. What I want, they won't always
the best pre-sales. That is available.
Yeah, always the best one. But if you have 10 sales reps
and temporary cells, you can't always send the best one.
Exactly. So what I always fight for and
had many discussions Oceans, everyone should be able to
support itself wrap. And in that way, was often a way
of how to protect the people, how to coach them and always
stand in front of them, in case that a sales rep and a sales
manager quite a bit of funding when they thought the additives
not excluded, we expected. Yeah.
And in that way, I think you'll learn people and you you make
them also funeral but also learn a lot how to achieve results on
how to do the things in a better way because always sending the
best people To the sales reps to make no sense, you know?
Yeah. And that is how you open
example, how I managed and Coach people and always try to expose
them and Coach them. Of course, not.
Just send them away and just do it.
Coach them support them. And always, yeah, be there to,
to get good ideas with them. Yeah, I like that.
You mentioned, you would still keep a kind of a close eye or at
least the clothes here to them with regards to coaching.
Do you have like a frequency Cadence that you would sit
together with them and have conversations about that the
coaching very Channel. You know, I had at the end one
of my teams where I grow from 2 to 15 people.
Yeah. With nine nationalities coming
from nine different countries. Everyone needs a different way
of coaching. Yeah, some don't need a dull,
just give them freedom. Of course, do rehearsals with
them, but some don't need some needed a lot, so it's very
situational. So that is very dependent on the
person. What I did with everyone at
least once every two weeks I had a one-to-one to discuss.
Yeah. But it was only if they On it
every two weeks. Otherwise, every month and I
already started with the question.
How are you? And guess what the answer was.
It's good Deals, Deals Deals. Busy I said, no.
How are you? Ah, and then after two three
times to understand, I just want to know.
How are you? Yeah.
And also privately how you doing?
Because if that's not in shape, if that not imbalance, you also
will on the work, have a difficult time and vice versa.
So bi-weekly monthly and coaching again is He's very
situational. Yeah, but then you you more so
build a relationship with them right in those coaching
sessions, not just on a professional level, but even on
a personal level, of course, because if you only talk about
the numbers and spreadsheets in the kpis and they can, they can
see in themselves. Yeah, it's like coaching off and
I'm also in the sports and you see them.
Sometimes, if a player makes a mistake, the worst thing a coach
can do to repeat. What a mistake was.
Do you think the player doesn't know the exactly?
No, and that's the same in the work.
Don't emphasize all the time. The mistakes they make but
emphasized on what to do different than what went well
and what and good. That's the way I think it should
be done. Yeah, you're interesting.
You mentioned growing a team from two people to 15 and then
even the result of that being a group of people with nine
different nationalities that to me because I've worked in an
environment like that. First of all, it's an amazing
environment to work in and learn from not just on a professional
level, but even on a personal level, it gives me yeah.
Having been part of that a lot more fulfillment.
Because I learn a lot. Yes, but being responsible for
that team and allowing that team to grow to what it has become.
How do you do that first from a hiring perspective and then I'm
interested more. So in the Dynamics of the result
of that team, it already was. Also another aspect is there.
Dimension was also that I have half of them are women.
Half of them are men. Okay?
That has always been in my team women and men because in deity
in the past you had many men. Let's women that it looked like
changing a lot. So it was also not was 50/50 but
that was also one important. Pick and how to hire what you
do. If you hire, you get a lot of
people to the table or you get resumes.
And what I did is that I read and resume, is it also a
personal part in it? Is that there?
And then what you did is what it is reading.
What is their background, what they do and what is their level
of Education? Yeah, that is what I saw and
that I selected is a bit subjective but then I selected
two or three. What?
Again, if I had 20 can Dates from which only three were
women? At least one was a woman who
came to the table because I wanted to also have women on
board. Yeah, maybe I'm bored.
I guess. What, in the first one?
Or two minutes, I already knew, is this a person that fits to
the team? Yeah, because to me, it's
important what is impression because the people who come to
the table, whether they come from Romania from all over from
Germany, Finland, Denmark Norway from Spain, you know, they have
a certain intelligence, but what I also, To find out?
Do they fit into the team? Yeah.
And that is how I select it in the beginning.
And of course then they have to present the show what I can do
and what is very important, don't hire people who are all
the same. Yeah.
Because if you finally have a team of 15 copies of each other,
you will never starve. Anyway gonna work?
No, no, I can tell you that once I started as a manager in an
existing team and it was a company that was pretty, pretty
successful company. Yeah.
But some of them and it Team as persons, whatever.
Quite different for me. They were not as easy but for
the worked or excellent. Yeah.
So you need to find a mix of characters but it can they must
have an attitude and I was important of being able to
collaborate okay tilt of supporting each other because
that is a good to me and team extremely important.
So if I were to summarize, then you've would focus more on the
attitude and the collaboration side.
If you would say, okay, this person fits in the team, but
their background and And even their gender could be diverse
with regards to what you all had.
Yeah, can you give you one example ones?
I had a very experienced person coming to the table.
Yeah. And he thought he was very
experienced. He was excellent.
He was great. At the same time, I had more
Junior to the table and then he asked both of them a week later
to present. Yeah.
The junior one he has done so much work to give a good real
presentation. He was really engaged there.
Yeah. And one, who was more
experienced? Almost sad.
He didn't say, but all instead What do you ask me that?
You're good at that good? Yeah he is evil.
It was so crap. What he showed me.
That's painful. What why the hell should I do
it? Yeah but of course always the
good, how good you are, always show a little bit of Engagement
and also what can you deliver? How can you do something
creative? Yeah, simply didn't so you can
guess who came through and it's quite easy.
That's good. I like that a lot because one of
the common threads that I do want in my team.
Like, I know that from having been in a team collaboration is
one of them being eager. Is one of them like a high sense
of ownership and responsibility as well, but then on other
sides, when it comes to kind of our way of working or even our
perspectives, in our education and background, those then the
diversity, adds a lot more to the table because if everyone
would be the same, you are solutions.
Would it be like you would only have one perspective that you
would go over? Exactly.
And it doesn't mean every day is easy, because sometimes you have
characters, so also have difficulties to work together.
Sometimes you have experienced people who need to learn Earn
that. The less experienced is also
worthwhile for the team. Yeah.
And it's sometimes a challenge because some people are not
thinking like that. Yeah.
But if you give them the freedom and also what I did in the team
that I had people coaching each other, so it was not only me
coaching, but the more experienced coach, the less
experienced. Yeah.
On the other side, if you call your Mentor, someone if you want
to mentee or you're the coach, you'll learn at the same time
from the coachee, from a coaching, from the mentee, you
know, exactly that. And that is the way I Also
managed to teams. Yeah, but moving ahead then
because we've kind of covered hiring.
If the team would grow to a, let's say a number of 15 as you
lay down your example with nine nationalities when you're
responsible for that team and you're managing that team.
I think you have to be very flexible because they, first of
all, your attention span to each individual is going to be custom
the way they want you to interact with them.
Is also going to be tailored to what they need.
Yeah. So as a manager I think you need
to be very flexible in how you handle those situations know.
Yeah. Exactly.
And that's that's the only way. I think it can be successful
because 15 is already a lot to do it in a very intense way.
So 15 is a lot. So for that reason you have
called it so kind coaches in the team who coach each other, you
know that takes away of the work that you need to do.
But yeah, you know what is also important if you have them
longer on board that you really start to discuss, if they don't
do it themselves about the next step is the next step in my
team. Is the next up elsewhere and
what you always show them That's even more important than in the
past that there is a perspective in the near future, not in the
far future know the near future because one of the one of the
youngest in my team, he once said to me, you know, I'll be
there only two or three years because I'm not there for the
company companies there for me. And then the next company is
there for me notes about my career.
Yeah, whether it's here or there.
So even if you don't want to lose people the most yeah.
I say stupid thing. You can do is try I to block
them of moving on. Yeah.
Because if they want to move out yet, it's a Pity but if they
stay and unhappy it's even worse.
That's how I always acted. That's, that's hard though.
Because I've talked to organizations, where I mean
right now, A lot of people are being laid off because of the
market, right? Or an impending crisis, people
are kind of tailoring towards that, or exactly can sure.
They can afford to go through that, basically, which also
means right now hiring as Cousin or the headcount that they have
is frozen. But if the people in those
teams, for example, want to move to internally to a different
apartment, people might say, no because accounts are frozen and
that they won't get to fill that position.
So they will block even people moving internally.
And if you move people or if you block people from moving
internally, the only way out is to move externally which is even
worse. You know, why do you think they
go? Yeah, to the Friends of the
competition but then the perspective is like it's it
sounds very selfish. Yeah.
Because they're like, I'll lose. Is my head count if I lose you.
So then they'd rather block someone which is even worse.
Yeah. But you know, everyone can be
the position of everyone can be taken over by someone else.
Yeah, because I'm quite simple in.
That is someone gets sick or really disappears or whatever.
You always have someone else or nobody.
Is there forever, you know that. And if you have that in mind
though, it's very sad and that if you lose people, because I
also lost very, very good intelligent people from the
team, but you That's just the way it is.
It's not a marriage, you know. Mary it.
It's just a it's a business business while you're working
and for them, the next step is maybe another company may be
other kind of work because they want to have that experience.
And that also is the big different ways.
You know, I'm a bit older but I worked and I was also very nice
with team members from 2:37 five.
Yeah, completely different generation.
You know they say if you see the resumes you see 2 years 1, year
3 years. In my case you don't See that
now, because from my, my age, people who work longer at the
same company. Yeah.
It's also big difference. Yeah.
But he can give people perspective to grow and if they
want to move on, let him go and let him do something, that will
make them even better and maybe they come back to you.
That's my theory about it. Yeah.
At least, they'll remember that you, you've were you advocated
for them, right? And you encourage them exact,
that's more important than trying to block them and be in
front of you and blocking them is useless.
Yeah. That doesn't you know, that
makes no sense because they are already thinking about the
future elsewhere or the future internally else heard it also
happened. Yeah.
I once faced a situation that a sales rep up wanted to join my
team as a pre-sales and his manager literally said, why do
you want to take a step back? Hmm.
Sorry, yeah. That guy was more a technical
guy. He liked pre-sales.
Yeah, he didn't like sales but let it happen.
That's weird. I don't know why you would why
someone would do that, okay, one of the things Kind of lost my
channel thought. One of the things I was
wondering is if people come into your team right there, eagerness
and their motivation to grow is going to differ.
I might have to do with Asia, might have to do with
background, might have to do with perspective if they see a
job just as a job instead of looking at their career but I
think your job as a manager is also to inspire people to kind
of be their best and to grow to become their best self as well.
Exactly how, how did you figure out how to inspire people coming
from different backgrounds or even motivation was?
As being different in their listening, listen to them, ask
them. And yeah, it's a bit of see how
they, how they behave, see what it do.
And just ask them and listen to them and talk to them.
Yeah. And then the ask open questions,
it's just like a discovery Journey, ask open questions, ask
them what they want, where they want to go, ask them what is
interesting them. And in that way, you try to find
out how they are besides of that, if itís very different
cultures, I didn't tell you, originally, I'm a geographer.
I'm not for my tea, so very interested in different
cultures, different areas. So, in make sure that, you know,
about how they are, what is, what is interesting than, what
is important for them, coming from where they are.
Yeah, and if you do that, why? And listen and try them together
come to a solution and then you find, I think a good way for
employees. So it's figuring out what they
really want, not just on a work level, but also on a personal
level, thinking about what makes you happy?
What makes you feel happy? I also So, I'm coaching people,
and I also coaching people from from was one person from from
Iraq, from the Arabian countries, and he was a manager,
and he was a very unhappy. Okay, he was not happy and I
said, what's happening? Yeah, at home.
I'm not, so funny, so I know. But this is why I don't like the
work. Do you like to be manager?
Maybe not, he changed to an individual role.
Yeah, he's extremely happy now. Exactly.
And normally from an individual to a management, It's not a
career path that many people want to go.
Yeah. But I think if that makes you
happy and make you flourish, that is the curry particle.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. As how I think about that if I
think about Management in and of its own, first of all, I don't
think anyone should be a manager or everyone should be a manager
rather, because I think you need to have some some core companies
which are really just inherent in you.
One of them, for example is dealing with people, you need to
either be good at that but you first of all, you need to want.
To be able to deal with people or want to deal with people on a
personal level. Right?
If you're just not interested in people in the first place, I
don't think you're going to be a great manager.
Yeah I also want them to take it further.
If you don't want to take the challenges they bring you then
using odds only bothering me and I don't like that.
All these problems. No, don't start challenges.
No problems, challenges. If you don't want to take it,
don't start it. And you will start as a manager.
But I think being a leader is something you could not decide
by yourself if you really To be leader, leading people daily
site. Yeah, because they see how you
are. They feel how you are and dating
site if they believe you, if you're the leader.
So, what happened wants to me and not everyone did it.
One of my employees asked me to be her coach.
What is normally not you too? Yeah, then I.
So she expects me to leader and we can change.
Also put on different hats that once I'm the manager.
And then I'm the coach earlier, you know, going to meet that is
important. If you get it done that people
see it. As a leader in a good way.
I think. Then you could do a good job as
a manager. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you don't have to be a manager to kind of have a
leadership hat on, right? You can be an individual
contributor. Exactly.
And just your way of contributing can make people
look up to you and be like this is the guy we need to go to for
these kind of problems and you can lead them through that.
Yeah. But a lot of individual
contributors at least in the past the only career path
forward was going to kind of a management position which
looking back. Out doesn't make any sense.
No still though. I think that's how a lot of
people in more traditional organizations.
That's the only career path step that they have.
Yeah, but I think what is making career if during your working
life on average you go to work every day with a smiling face.
Yeah. And you come with a happy face
at home and if that could read that if you career and if that
is up to the top or CEO or if you're an engineer or you're a
consultant or a sales rep, or whatever you are, In our work
that doesn't mind and in my own situation.
I never had in mind to be the owner of a company or to be the
director or the CEO. I just took the opportunities
that came along. Yeah.
And what I thought, this is what I like this is where I can add
value and this is what makes me happy and still then not every
day is a funny day, but that's normal.
Exactly. Yeah, in those things are in
your role as being a manager, what was really what would a few
of the kind of key Drive points that you had did?
Love just interacting with people or are you a curious
person by Nature where they kind of the Drive come from time to
manage their? The drive, is that strange?
I feel good if I can see other people benefiting from what I,
bring to the table, okay. If I can add any value to
someone, where he can make the next step or where he can learn
from it. Or if I have any ideas like this
morning at a call, this one of the one of the guys I want
tired. Yeah, and yet Um, questions.
And I just wanted to three ideas from, which one of them was very
good for him. Yeah, that I feel good.
That's, that makes me happy and that's how I always manage to
people not in the start, of course.
And I was coming from a, as I said a presupposition to
manager, then you just all bit nervous little new.
And how can I do that? Yeah, but if you have more
experience but it is just where it can.
I support people very kind of make them better and also, if
someone that happened several times, is close to a Note those
manuals to private situations, give them the time and the
freedom to recover. Yeah, don't push it too hard.
Give them just some free time and look, for ways how to
support them in that way. Not as a professional that
supports them, but as a manager's leader, give them the
freedom, the space to breath. That's what I think is also very
important. And one more example, there was
one, someone will ask me something that I will not.
Close it here in detail. Ask me something to reset.
This is so weird, but then I thought over the weekend.
What shall I do? Yeah, it's um, let's just try it
and the relationship business, five change completely.
They're simply because that person asked some space that I
didn't see. But on the person asked for it,
I thought let's do it and that was the solution.
Yeah. So it was kind of a request that
was maybe a bit more odd, or strange or yeah.
That doesn't that worry you I will never ask that but if
someone and then you can, of course, I know never do and
don't but I thought, let's think about it in a weekend and then
it's all done. Let's give it a try, why not?
I think it. I think it shows how flexible
you need to be. If someone comes up with a
request that you're not used to and you can accommodate for and
the value of that is tremendous. Then, yeah, that's a good choice
but to be flexible enough to try that.
Exactly. And it must be possible to
company where you are, because not everything is possible in
every company. Whatever.
Good of course because let's let me show, you must be flexible.
But if you're managing a team leading, a team, as a team, you
work together, but it the end if there is no decision taken you?
Of course, have some. Yeah, you must show them all so
that you can take decisions and show them.
What is the way to go? Yeah, so Freedom, exactly
flexibility but at the end, be sure that if there should be
taking decisions that they are taken and not on your own, yes,
the team, but you have the position.
And also they expect you to Yeah, I don't expect you to
listen to everyone and say, let's vote.
Ya know there's different you that is Happy of the envelope
that's happening. In the works Council where I'm
the chairman from the areas, of course, you can vote.
Yeah, that's I'm the chairman but I'm equal among others are
completely, that's completely different.
Yeah, I agree with that. I love that.
You said, one of the biggest key drivers in, you being a manager
is really just adding value to the other person in there, but I
can assume that there's going Gonna be tough parts of managing
people where first of all you might not have a connection with
that person or you might realize that you don't really have a lot
of value that you can add here and there.
Exactly have you like come upon those situations?
Yes. Yes.
I've come upon that one at
several years ago and then I decided to give that person the
freedom to look for another job. Okay, what you can do in a
company, you can put that person on an improvement procedure.
What means you coach the person for three months with the end
goal will be to You say your fire Kiko?
Okay? That is the easy one.
Now, why would I choose for? I said, let's look around.
If there's something else where you can work outside, the
company because the fit is not there, the real fit is not
there. You're sitting on the place
where you're not happy and then you give someone that space and
you hope you can't, then you can't influence that more that
that person, find something that fits better to him.
Yeah. And that's I think the way you
can do it at all. So we are very sad.
Circumstance. I had once years ago, that when
I started in a team, my manager at hired someone before I
started the manager in the team that was also a personal friend
of him. Yeah, that wasn't.
Maybe not a reason but to be honest, that person was totally
not suitable for the job, okay? Yeah, that's difficult.
That is the difficult one. And then, finally, I discuss
with my manager, how to handle that.
And then, yeah, we took it. It decided to tell him that this
is not the place to be. No at all.
This happened because although it's a tough message, if you
really sure that in order in the wrong place, not on the wrong
side, you can better tell it quickly then.
Wait, and let it go to really a very bad situation.
Yeah, drag it out. Yeah.
There's also know what you want, not I can imagine exactly.
I mean, for me company culture really just holds true in tough
times, right? Because if times are easy,
everything is easy, right? You get a lot of freedom to do
things. But when you're for example, in
a crisis and shit, hits the fan, And all of a sudden, all those
privileges go in the water. And then the things that you
still hold true. That is kind of your culture,
right? If all those benefits still
exist in kind of a crisis situation, then those are the
things that our company really values but that also puts
pressure on top of the management and the management
that usually puts pressure on the people to perform.
How do you deal with? Kind of that pressure is that
still shielding your people even from a top layer, you have to
pretty surprised series that I you still try to to to go As far
as you can within the boundary you have yet, at least what I
try to do to support the people to give them a good good, good
working environment. If that not possible.
I all those transparent not to say, it's not my fault.
No. But just told him, what is
possible? What is not possible?
Yeah, and simply told them, and that is from the did seven
habits from coffee. You have the circle of Doom, the
circle of influence and someone these three circles.
And if you focus on the circle of Doom, you lose so many energy
for nothing. Circle of influence you can
influence but you still can't decide.
So put your energy in the parts where you can really make sense,
right? Can really make sense and also I
told them you know these are circumstances that I can't
change and not to say that just accept it but I can change it.
We may be quick an influence yet but let's turn within the
boundaries that we have shape an environment that is still doable
and pleasant to work in. That's the way it is.
Exactly that make sense. Yeah, it does.
Does, I mean, that's that's what I appreciate from my managers,
or my leadership is openness and transparency, right?
If it's Doom and Gloom out there, give it to me straight.
I want to hear that. It's Doom and Gloom and what can
we do to kind of figure it out? And the worst thing is that I
say it's all Fantastic Plastic while it's not.
Yeah. And of course, you don't have to
emphasize that is - and nothing is right?
But be transparent, tell the truth and tell what happening
until the reasons why things are there.
If that it might change, of course.
But if you don't and you keep it secret people don't trust you
anymore and you lose your roll. Yeah.
Yeah that's my opinion. And my experience I've noticed
that but I've also heard that some managers would say I can't
really be transparent in this case or they're more.
So afraid, what happens if they are transparent?
What are they afraid? Oh yeah I don't know either.
What could happen have you always found yourself in a
position where you can just be 100% transparent and honest with
the information that you have? Yeah almost always because as I
also told you Ooh, I'm chairman of the works Council.
Yeah, your Insight in numbers and information.
That is tangible. Sure.
And that's what you can't hear hear.
And always took that boundary very very clear because that is
not possible also because you can harm the company and finally
harm yourself very much old are you don't but if possible I was
always transparent. And to tell what why things
happened, what the reasons were and telling them how we could
influence or also. If I say sorry, we can't change
that we just has to have to go. With it.
And let's try to make the best out of it.
Yeah. That's the way I did.
But again, I think we're all talking to mature people.
Why would you hit hide things? Why would you not be
transparent, you know, what's the problem there?
Yeah, I don't get it. No, I don't get it either.
That's why I was wondering what your take is on that, but that
is what I've seen that. Oh, yeah, I see it all struggle
with. Yeah, I also see that many many
of an awesome managers or VPS. Yeah, they keep things hidden
and they don't tell what's happening there while if they
would be More transparent and be more open in the communication.
They will find out that the people would understand better
because what is the most, you know, bad news and and good news
is okay. But no news is verse.
Yeah, that's the worst. That is the worst.
Exactly. Yeah, it's like Flying Blind,
you've no idea. Yeah, people people are smart
like if if there is kind of an impending doom, they will figure
it out, of course. And if you don't have
communication, I think you look worse because of that, because
then people have figured it out. You're Really communicating
about it. And then you'd look real bad
because of that. And especially when I started my
career and idea that was in 1986 as a cola programmer, by the
way, you didn't have internet, you had no bones.
You had no laptops, no computers.
You only had a Mainframe, but you did your coding on, but you
had no communication worldwide. So what I mean by that, if you
know, I'd things as a company, people know about it anyway,
because if you just Google new company name and you put some
words on it, you'll find it everywhere.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's quite easy. That's such a difference.
I went in through all that transition from no mobile
phones, no laptops. No internet, no information.
No, social media into the current area.
Yeah, you can find it everywhere.
Yeah. You know, I love that.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I put up, put up a poll
on my LinkedIn because I had a talk earlier few weeks back and
it was about more management style was about tech lead versus
engineering manager. Yeah.
And one of the three things that that gets mentioned was packed
cool. He said Managers can really
struggle with either dedicating decision-making, or just dealing
with people. Now, I put up a poll on my
LinkedIn just because I was curious in people that have kind
of leadership positions. What they struggled with the
most and to my surprise, it was more so delegating, so people
that have certain commitments and then allowing other people
to work on that basically by just the virtue of them.
Delegating. That's what people struggle with
the most out of those. Did you kind of struggle with
delegating, as well? Where did they all come
naturally to you? Because you mentioned
immediately like, I allowed people to coach other people and
like you spread your influence through that.
I can. If I go back to the start where
I became a manager, I had a bit to promote allocating because I
knew all the details of the product.
Yeah, maybe you remember. I told you, I was the pre-sales
and I know there. It was a bit difficult in the
start, but then I moved into an area where I knew the products
but not as deep as I did. The other ones you know totally
easier to delegate and I'm in this.
My position is the following if I hire the right people.
If I have coached them properly and they grow, why should I take
over their work? Yeah, so they are words.
We do rehearsals, of course, video tryouts.
Of course, we will listen and we see coming shape a bit like that
but like that but if I don't delegate I'm then having 20
balls into our two hands and that's not possible.
Now delegating also empowers them and, you know, again, going
back to the story if someone can is not allowed to make any
mistake, You've never grow, you'll never learn.
So, delegation was to me, not an issue at all?
No, not at all. What, what then when it came to
the decision, making that that come naturally as well because I
can imagine, that could be a hard one as well to actually put
your foot down and be like, now, this is the way I think we
should go from a vision point of view, to be honest, in the
rehearsals. If you do that by asking
questions, then people often know what himself what the right
way is. So just by asking question, have
an open conversation, they know about it.
Yeah, they will take different. Decisions to go different ways.
And again, finally, if you have to take a decision as a team and
you can't find a common common sense for that yet, then you
say, you know, there's no common sense.
I should just believe this way. We start this way, and we go
this way. Yeah.
And that never went wrong, was not accepted, but it can, if the
decision is, is done room afterwards.
Yeah, just tell them you say, hey, sorry.
I did this issue from the right one.
Yeah. Also transparency, because Is
nothing wrong with confessing that you've made a mistake.
Yeah, it's ownership also and I think it gets, appreciate it.
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
And always always, if something goes wrong, never blame anyone
in your team. Never do that this curse,
mistakes privately in one-to-one conversations.
And the biggest mistake that eyesore manager, taking that,
lets say you're all of people. The team is there, you made a
mistake and I Blame You with only other there.
Yeah, that is so awful horrible. It's happening.
It's more.
It's the blame mole and that is so bad because someone knows
that it went wrong and then try to discuss that in a 12-1 a
personal conversation. Try to find out if the person
understands what should be done, better?
Yeah. But, never ever blame in public.
No, and always if someone else tries to blame your employee
stand in front of him, defend him even if you're not an evil
wrong even if you know it was not right and they make him feel
safe. Yeah.
And then he will Change. But if you don't, he's not open
for change. Yeah.
That is how I think it is. No.
I think, I think blame comes more out of a kind of position
of fear, right? Out of a position of ego and a
position of perception where you don't want to be looked at for
having done something wrong. But again, if your culture is
that, that of just openness, a nurse takes can happen and you
learn from them. That's how you grow.
Then that should never be the case.
And the Killer is micromanagement also.
Yeah, maybe maybe you've seen that to you have quite often,
people don't? It and I have not example.
Imagine you have to run the 100 meters and your coach is sitting
on your back because he thinks you don't know exactly what to
do. Yeah.
I'm never going to make it. Yeah.
But that's not even that yukos has a supervisor on the back of
your coach because he wants to lead your supervisor.
Yeah, there's an owner of your Club.
He's on top. So you have three man in your
back on your own shoulders. How far do you go?
Yeah, I'm never going to make it and do you think this happening
in companies that the manager director, 13 director, the VPD
SVP. They're all all looking across
the shoulder if it goes. Right.
What do you think what'll happen?
How do you feel? Yeah, you feel clamped.
You can prove. Yeah.
So give that example of Athletics, you will not win any
race. If you get four people on your
shoulders. Now, how do you change that
though? Because I can imagine that
people listening to, this might feel like they're being
micromanaged. How do you then from an employee
point of view like, talk to your manager, give them that
feedback, even to not micromanage, then it Yeah, it's
quite difficult because in many companies are still the culture
that the when the director doesn't want that, the, the fire
that senior director is asking him.
Something that he doesn't know. Yeah, goes.
Oh, that's awful. But why is that over again?
In my team, I could change it by keeping away.
People above me. Yeah, but as, as I was not
leading the sales part yet there, I could not influence.
I could only sometimes in discussions, mentioned these
examples, And say maybe let it go a little bit.
Let it go little bit, maybe that's but I could not really
change that because I buy purpose.
Never accept 1/4. Never was a salesman here.
Yeah, just because that micromanagement is more
happening in sales than in pre-sales.
We are willing to me an organizational culture.
Just takes all. Yes, exactly.
It also depends on where you come from and how's the high sea
organization organized? Yes yeah exactly.
How did you then deal with feedback when it came to you?
Acting as a manager that the people come up to you or that
you have a way of working for them to give you feedback for
you to also grow as manager. Can you repeat?
I don't quite understand what you mean by that.
As a manager, you mentioned, you've learned a lot throughout
your career and throughout the position.
Yeah. But probably you learned because
people give you feedback on that.
Right now, the people you were responsible for even your peers
in that way, how did you kind of get that feedback in the first
place? That was a kind of a way of
working that you have asked for it.
I'll square. It is a square.
It's just regular. Hurley.
Yeah, everyone to one we started his.
Is there anything you want to tell me?
Okay. And is there anything and also I
told him the worst thing you can do is not telling me the truth
about me. Yeah.
And I will never ever Miss use it in any performance review or
whatever because I expected uxg, except if I tell you what, I
think, how you do and so on, but I want you to tell me the same.
Yeah. Because how, can we ever get a
real good? Trusted relationship work, if I
Think that I did a great job. But if you're around the corner
all together with a team, you love about me, you say who?
What a shitty job, he does. Yeah, that's not fair because
you think you don't give me the chance to change because maybe I
think I do the best because I think it is the best.
But you must also support me and help me to realize that there
are certain things that can be done different.
Now, in this team, maybe in another team.
It worked not in this tea. Yeah, that is open.
Believe you on that because the hard part is there's an inherent
hierarchy, right? But you are responsible for
those people, and if you didn't say, you should ask it, any
feedback, you should ask them. But I have had sounds may be
arrogant. So I must be careful.
But I think the majority believe me in that.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think they did and they also told me if things could be 10
different. I think they did.
But yeah, you should ask them of course.
I mean, I mean, it shows your strength of character just the
way that you've interacted with people or you come across as the
person that interacts like that I would If the more I will
believe you when you say that, I hope so.
Yeah, I am not going to go behind your back to God.
All right? No, no, but but I think it is I
think I did. But of course not which every
individual you always have some some examples where it didn't go
that well, that's normal. Also, as a teacher, I was a
teacher for a year and very short.
I had kids of 13 14, 15 years old.
Yeah. And even after one year, two of
them, they didn't trust me because the teacher was by
default our enemy. Yeah.
And whatever. Ride it.
You're done. You're done.
You have that's chanceless that. Also my tap.
Where's the camera? Chemicals.
Not there. Yeah that makes a lot.
You just need to accept that. Yeah.
Did you encourage people to also give and ask feedback from each
other like in that same team? Yeah.
To accommodate for and to grow because of thanks for asking
because I forgot the appraisals and the reviews.
I asked also team members to review each other.
Yeah. So I didn't only ask them to to
ask dare, dare dare. Sales reps or others.
I also ask people in the same time to review and maybe maybe I
could angle to that one. If I hired someone that was
always in the process of hiring a meeting between two of the
team members of my team without me and the candidate.
Yeah, I thought it very important because there, they
had a free spice. They could ask everything and
tell everything about me and about how the team is doing
without the manager. There that's also the way I
think you find. Did the good people who fit to
each other. Mmm.
Yeah. Did you do that on a, on a
salary level as well? Because you were still kind of
responsible in those end-of-year talks or have here talks and you
would be at the end of the conversation when it came to
what is your bonus going to be or how much is your increase
going to be? And I think I mean I'm not a
manager. I think that would be very
difficult for me sitting on the other side of that table because
you take time to build that relationship.
And all of a sudden you have to be.
This is the probably the one of the most professional
conversations you're going to have which Impacts the other
person on a personal level, right?
I think that's one of the most difficult conversations,
especially that's a company is not performing.
Well, you can't give out as a high salaries as people expect
this year, might be a good example, because there's a lot
of inflation people are paying for their electricity bills.
Those are difficult conversations.
How did you accommodate for those here?
Regarding salary increases? The companies I worked for there
was not a possibility that if I catch you, right?
That people in the team would together decide.
Yeah, that was simply not possible.
Get that it was a decision where I made a proposal then three of
the managers together with me, made up your mind.
And then supervisor also was there.
So that is more, a hierarchy, hierarchical way of working, so
it was no space for that. Yeah.
And you're having said that recording inflation, and that
kind of stuff. We are just difficult for me.
But again, I work for multinationals based in America
and I think that's the answer. Mmm, not possible.
No, no, that is so we do room. No, do nothing at all.
And that's just a zone of Doom. And that's something also from a
reputation for a council. We brought it up, but if you
work for companies or abroad, then it's very, very difficult
in Holland. I don't have to experience,
maybe they are closer to the table.
May be easier, but not in those International companies and my
company is not unique in that. Would you, would you still be
open and transparent about that? Yeah, because that kind of
negatively impact, someone's perception of the company,
right? Rightfully, so because that is
the situation. Ation.
Yeah. But that will be negative, if
that company was the only one. Yeah, but all the others are the
same exact people. They're all in the same boat.
They're all the same. They all have the same answer,
it's not possible. Yeah, I'm for reasons.
They have reasons for that. I will not disclose here, but I
have reason to know companies on that level of reasons, not to
repair the inflation worldwide for all employees.
Yeah, they simply don't or can't or whatever.
Yeah, that's a difficult one. Yeah, yeah.
But if you tell them that you just Did you just ask for it,
and you brought it to the table? That's at least what you can do.
Yeah. At least you make people aware
of the fact that you bring it up and the fact that it is done,
not happening. Yeah.
That is not, you know, the position to decide on that.
Yeah. You're not a CEO, you know, to
see if oh, yeah, I was controllers out of control that
you control. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Yeah, I've really enjoyed this
conversation with him kind of us going through your perspective,
and your experience on managing and leading, is there anything
you'd still like to share with regards to our listeners?
Dang it. Yeah but I would say to those
who are leading people in many people, give your team, the
freedom trust you people and treat your team, the way you
want to be treated. If you do it like that, it will
be successful. Yeah, things will fall into
place, of course. Exactly.
I love that. Let's round off on their them
then best in everyone. I'm gonna put all his links to
socials in the description below.
Check him out. And with that being said, thank
you for listening. We'll see you on the next one.