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Hey guys. 
Today, we talked about how to 

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lift an idea to an actual 
product and my guest was 

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involved in building an app in 
which researchers are trying to 

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figure out a better way to treat
kids. 

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With anxiety, today's guests are
in the here. 

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Beyond coating, a dive into. 
The it from. 

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Your peers your host, Patrick 
akhil. 

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Evan, welcome. 
Thank you. 

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How's it going? 
It's going very well. 

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Awesome. 
So I brought you here to talk 

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about how to lift an idea to a 
product, right? 

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A lot of people have a lot of 
ideas but to productize, but it 

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out in the market, even to 
consumers, or to users, that's a

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skill. 
And you have a great example of 

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how you did that in an app that 
you've created. 

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But let's start with the idea. 
What was the idea and how to get

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you. 
Yeah, that's true. 

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So it's Really something that I 
experienced during the 

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development of this application.
And I think that in this 

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instance that works worked well,
I don't think it always works. 

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Well, if you have an ID to get 
it actually as a successful 

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product. 
Yeah. 

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In at least a workable product, 
this idea comes from researcher 

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dr. 
Klein from Leiden University and

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our company Dry Fork has 
relations with them. 

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And they came to us because they
go ahead, the grant to develop, 

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Basically a digital instrument 
for treating anxiety in 

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children. 
Yeah, and anxiety in children is

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something that what happens, 
kind of a lot and it's also 

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something that can limit you 
later on in life. 

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So, for instance, if you are 
like scared of dogs, you do, you

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don't do anything with it. 
Something that later on, you 

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will notice that it can give you
problems and it's really 

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unfortunate because it's very 
easy to treat. 

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So, And we do have to mention 
that, it's about specific 

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anxiety. 
So, a fear of spiders, fear of 

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dogs, we are flying and not not 
force. 

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Appreciate like a social anxiety
or generic anxiety. 

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Those are harder to treat. 
Yeah, but really something 

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specific where you are afraid 
of, and anxieties, actually 

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irrational because of course, 
some dogs are dangerous. 

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But in general, you shouldn't be
super scared of dogs. 

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Exactly. 
And basically, there's a There's

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a program in the United States 
which is called one session 

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treatment. 
Okay? 

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And it's a it's a treatment 
where you have one session with 

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a therapist. 
Yeah. 

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And they help you set up with 
this treatment and then you go 

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practice by yourself. 
So you can practice, basically 

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exposure for, for instance, for 
for dogs. 

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And it's really important that 
you do this practicing by 

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yourself and it helps you. 
And if you compare that, for 

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instance, to the Netherlands, 
you can also do a treatment but 

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you have Go visit the therapist 
lots of times. 

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So thanks a lot of time, but it 
also cost money. 

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It Insurance have to pay this. 
So they want to bring over this 

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one session treatment, 
basically, to Europe the 

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Netherlands. 
A juror, we do it with together 

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with Germany. 
Yeah. 

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But they got the idea that they 
can support is for instance, 

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with an app. 
So with a digital instruments 

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and of course, everybody has a 
phone or an iPad so we can we 

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can build an app to do this and 
that's what I got the grant for.

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So they got money from if these 
organizations that give money as

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to researchers. 
Yeah. 

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And that's what they want to use
to build the app. 

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So they come to us with this ID.
And basically, the ID was just 

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this, we want to build an app 
that's going to help anxiety 

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treatment, which is like, 
really, really rough and for us 

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as a developer's. 
Yeah, you don't know what to 

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work with. 
Exactly. 

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Usually, when you start a 
project, there's more 

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information that you know but 
roughly what people want or What

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you see on your phone and and 
this was this was basically 

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okay. 
We want to build an app and 

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that's it. 
That's the start of the start. 

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Yeah. 
Started to start and of course 

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different universities are 
involved or light and also both 

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in Germany and one day or were 
talking to get together. 

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They also had problems 
visualizing what what it was 

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they were talking about, so, 
okay, they want to build an app,

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but what does the app do? 
And the really rough idea was 

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was actually quite funny. 
It's basically an alarm clock 

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with a chat app. 
Okay? 

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Because what you want to do with
application is you want to help 

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children practice. 
Hmm. 

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So for instance, you could say, 
okay, then you want to give a 

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reminder that they should 
practice every day. 

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Yeah, or multiple times a week 
and at the same time, there's 

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already an existing treatment 
with a therapist. 

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So you think, okay, we need a 
link with the therapy. 

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So you need to be able to chat 
with therapist. 

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So maybe you can ask a question 
or they can give you 

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instructions. 
Yeah, so that was really the 

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rough idea where we went from 
you. 

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Look at the end result. 
It's Nothing. 

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So basically what we started out
as we said, okay we need to have

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something and it doesn't matter 
what it is but we need to look 

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at something and people need to 
be able to say, okay this 

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doesn't work or I like this, 
maybe we can export it so we 

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just made very rough mock-ups. 
Yeah, which we already gave to 

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the Target. 
Groups are two children and also

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the other researchers and also 
to therapists, okay. 

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And that already Helped a lot 
because then you have something 

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to talk about. 
So there was indeed mock-ups of 

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chat screen mock-ups of a 
notification screen that's 

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before building anything right 
before building anything? 

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This was just, I don't know, PDF
on paper or we had it so as 

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well. 
Yeah, that was just it and we 

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did this actually with the 
development team. 

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So accompany thought this is a 
good idea. 

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We want to help building this. 
There was not a lot of money 

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available for the development. 
They got the grant but But 

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research is also expensive and 
you have to do the whole 

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research project. 
And so we did the app with two 

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students which is for us really 
nice because we usually hire 

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students to do their internship 
and then we want them to either 

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join an existing project or 
build something. 

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Yeah, but it's always hard to 
think. 

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Okay. 
What should they built? 

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It should be something usable, 
but should also be not a lot of 

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risk, but yeah, sometimes they 
don't succeed. 

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So for us it was a very good 
opportunity could say, okay, we 

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can provide Vide resources, we 
can have if you the students but

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they're sure of course, a risk 
that needs to be finished after 

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the students are done. 
Yeah. 

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And we had these two software. 
Engineers students were really 

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nice guys, and me, and that was 
literally the first thing they 

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did. 
They made those mock-ups and 

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went with them to to all the 
people involved and that's 

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awesome. 
Yeah, then we got caught the 

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feedback so I think that that 
was the first thing is If you 

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don't know how to start. 
Yeah. 

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Doesn't matter make something. 
Yeah, it's complete crap. 

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If you throw it away? 
Well, at least you have a 

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reference, right. 
I love that because it's don't. 

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Don't wait until you know how to
start. 

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I just start and get feedback on
that and then you'll know which 

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direction to go. 
Yeah, I always have problems if 

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I start with the blank screen. 
Yeah. 

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Like I have to make a 
presentation and then you open 

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it and yeah. 
Okay. 

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Now it's an empty paper. 
What are you writing down? 

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Exactly. 
But then, when you start, you 

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can direct and be like, no, this
doesn't Oh, I think this might 

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work and just keep testing your 
assumptions. 

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Yeah, it does mean that you 
should be able to throw stuff 

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away, which is also if you 
invest time, especially if you 

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invest. 
Well, if you build something 

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technical, thanks a lot of 
effort. 

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You should be able to throw it 
away. 

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That's hard for you, but you 
guys, you guys threw away then 

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that initial idea with the alarm
clock in the chat. 

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Yeah. 
So basically, well, I can 

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briefly explain what it does now
and yeah, we'll see. 

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The contrast. 
Basically, it's still an 

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application, on your phone and 
your login, and basically, it's 

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a list of exercises. 
The exercises are all personal. 

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So something that you think of 
for yourself with your 

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therapist, and then you put them
in the application. 

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Yeah. 
And then the app helps you to do

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these exercises. 
So you can choose the level of 

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the exercise. 
So for instance, if you have to 

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pet a dog, you can bet one dog 
or pet it for 5 minutes, better 

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to 10 minutes, but it for 15 
minutes there's Levels in which 

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you can do the task where? 
Yeah, and you can complete the 

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exercise successfully or 
unsuccessfully just a little bit

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of a questionnaire and you get 
rewards for the exercises and we

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wash can then be spent in store,
and basically, you can buy 

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real-world products, okay? 
So, apparently, at one of the 

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things we had to learn this as 
well, because we are software 

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engineers, and this is anxiety 
treatment, which is not my 

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field. 
So we really had to learn how 

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that works from the researchers.
Yeah, but There's literature 

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that says if you want to get rid
of your fears, you have to do 

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it. 
You have to approach it in a 

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personal way. 
So basically we can both be 

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afraid of dogs but in a 
completely different way, okay? 

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It's, it's not that if you are 
afraid of dogs and your walk, a 

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dog every day, then after a 
month, you're done. 

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It's it depends completely on 
the person. 

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Yeah, but also, in the level of 
exposure, you want to do some 

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people will immediately be able 
to walk a dog and some people 

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even need to look at pictures of
dogs, okay? 

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Able to walk a dog. 
So that's why the exercise the 

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personal but also the rewards 
are personal. 

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Yeah and and like I said, 
they're real world of rewards 

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because we really want to give 
them something that they feel. 

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They they are rewards. 
If you give like a digital 

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picture of a sticker it's not 
really that exactly doesn't stay

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valuable. 
Yeah, so it's going to be a can 

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be really simple things. 
It can be a book if they were 

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like certain book, they can say,
okay, if I walk the dog for a 

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week and I can buy a book Nice. 
The parents then have to buy the

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book of course. 
Oh yeah, you need the parents to

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be involved. 
Yeah. 

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But yeah, that that worked 
because they they own the 

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process. 
They can think of. 

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Okay, what do you think is 
valuable for me if I did 

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something? 
Yeah, they learned that if you 

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do something that's hard that 
you can reward yourself, but you

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can also choose how you to 
reward yourself. 

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Yeah, for me, that was really 
good inside because it works. 

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I think that For other things as
well. 

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Yeah. 
If I have something that I want 

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to do, or I have to do and it's 
hard for me, but if I reward 

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myself with it, it becomes 
easier. 

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Yeah. 
It's that incentive. 

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That, that didn't even exist in 
the initial idea. 

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Now, Justice does not there. 
Yeah, and the exercises were not

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there and the store was so the 
service. 

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Also to the and also one aspect 
is they they take videos and 

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pictures of kind of a Diaries. 
There's a diary function that 

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was also bleeding. 
Not there. 

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Yeah, because it also helps if 
you watch back the experience if

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it was a positive experience. 
Yeah. 

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So there's multiple ways that 
you can conquer fear. 

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One of the things is basically 
habituation. 

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So if you fear of giving 
presentations, yeah, on a stage.

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But if you do it really often 
and you watch back and you see 

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that you did well. 
Okay. 

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The fear goes away. 
Yeah. 

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So they're watching back a video
of you walking a dog helps with 

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your fear. 
It helps better than Welcome to 

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duck. 
So that's also one component 

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that came up. 
Yeah. 

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During yeah, during the whole 
process, basically. 

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So that's for me, the, the 
initial ID and the end result 

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it's night and day completely. 
But how do you get? 

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Because you reference some part 
from literature right in in 

231
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,100
getting personal Rewards or 
gradually going through all the 

232
00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:49,500
difficulties in either petting, 
a dog for a short duration or 

233
00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:52,200
longer one but you didn't start 
out with that knowledge. 

234
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,800
Did you go to? 
For example, the more literal R2

235
00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,500
part of your stakeholders, 
instead of the kit side and 

236
00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:01,500
figure out that way I have to 
get that knowledge. 

237
00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:04,000
That was really a combination of
all these things. 

238
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,900
We because at one at one side, 
we are building an application 

239
00:12:07,900 --> 00:12:10,200
for kids. 
So we have to make sure that we 

240
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,700
build something they like, yeah,
it in the other end. 

241
00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,000
The gold initially idea is that 
there's a theory that must be 

242
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,800
validated by using the app. 
Yeah, host. 

243
00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:22,800
They are now going to use the 
app in an experiment and there 

244
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,400
will be a comparison to groups 
and then they were actually 

245
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,000
Whether the app works or not. 
So normally you build something 

246
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,800
for an end user for the end, and
that's it, right? 

247
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,100
The end user will use the app 
and now you tell something for 

248
00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:39,800
science exactly going to do an 
experience, but they're still 

249
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,300
uses so it's that was more 
complicated. 

250
00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:46,200
So, that's true. 
We we had the children involved,

251
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,800
but we also had the researchers 
involved from Leiden University 

252
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,500
from Boston University, and the 
original guy who thought of the 

253
00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:55,000
one session treatment in the 
u.s. 

254
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:56,600
American professor. 
Sir. 

255
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,800
Yeah. 
And they all got the application

256
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,500
on their device. 
So they were able to go through 

257
00:13:02,500 --> 00:13:05,100
the application or the version 
we had at that moment. 

258
00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:11,200
And I were also be able to give 
the feedback and guide us to 

259
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,000
what we have to do. 
Or and what what we can do those

260
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,700
as a developer, you sometimes 
think over a user. 

261
00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:23,900
It would be easier to not have 
two similar questions. 

262
00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:26,100
Yes, that was one of the things 
that came up there was one 

263
00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:29,100
question. 
Ian, they both asked about the 

264
00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:33,200
anxiety level you experienced, 
but one asked during and one 

265
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,900
asked after, and these questions
were just after each other. 

266
00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:38,800
So I said, if you get those 
questions and they're almost the

267
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,400
same, how can you make a 
distinguish between them? 

268
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,900
But the researchers told us we 
have to put that in there 

269
00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:49,500
because we want to validate the 
difference between the anxiety 

270
00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:52,600
during the exercise and the 
anxiety after exercise because 

271
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,800
apparently, there's a theory 
that there is some client 

272
00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:59,900
Decline and like the speed of 
decline has to go up. 

273
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,400
The more you practice this the 
sooner faster has to go down. 

274
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,400
Yeah, something like that. 
So it's really was important to 

275
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,500
if you think about something or 
if a child comes up with an ID 

276
00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:15,700
to take that ID and go to the 
researchers and say okay we have

277
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:16,700
this idea. 
Yeah. 

278
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,600
Does it work or does it? 
Is it fell it according to your 

279
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,500
the thing you want to experience
everything you want to research 

280
00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:26,100
or the existing literature? 
Yeah so that's that was a 

281
00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:27,800
balancing act. 
Yeah. 

282
00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:34,100
And the third thing was we also 
went into the literature 

283
00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:38,500
ourselves but more in our field.
So for instance, important 

284
00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:41,700
aspect of the application is 
that we need to motivate the 

285
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:46,100
children to do the exercises but
also to keep using the app. 

286
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,300
Yes. 
If they get bored or what's the 

287
00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:48,800
point? 
Yeah. 

288
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,100
What's the point doesn't work? 
So there's an interesting 

289
00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:57,500
website called psychology of 
games and they do like articles 

290
00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:01,700
where they basically refuel 
bunch of scientific literature 

291
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:06,400
and make it more accessible 
because I'm a software developer

292
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,000
and I have a University degree 
but I don't like reading papers.

293
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,100
That's really abstract and yeah,
really specific. 

294
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:15,800
So I really like to read this 
overviews where people were at a

295
00:15:15,808 --> 00:15:18,300
couple of papers and a explain, 
what happened? 

296
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,500
And on psychology of games, 
there's a website and our page 

297
00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:29,200
and basically the explain why 
batches and achievements work. 

298
00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:31,200
Yeah. 
And that's really was really 

299
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,000
interesting for me because it's 
something that that you see a 

300
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,600
lot. 
Play video games. 

301
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,400
Yeah, it's in there. 
I think the last 10 years it's 

302
00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:43,800
become a really standard. 
Yeah like the skin or acquired 

303
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,400
by your skin and I get so much 
events and show it on your 

304
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:47,400
profile. 
Yeah. 

305
00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:51,000
I got platinum in this game. 
This kind of thing. 

306
00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:55,000
Yeah. 
But also in learning apps like 

307
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:56,100
Duolingo. 
Hmm. 

308
00:15:56,500 --> 00:16:00,100
They also have a really a big 
achievement scheme going on and 

309
00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:02,800
depending on what kind of 
achievements you will lock. 

310
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,100
You can do order order exercises
in order to us. 

311
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,600
And that website or that, that 
article that I reference really 

312
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,500
explains how it works. 
And it works on different 

313
00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:15,200
levels, which I didn't expect. 
I thought it was more like 

314
00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:20,100
superficial, like you get an 
achievement and you're happy 

315
00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:22,900
that you got it, you show it to 
someone and that's basically it.

316
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:27,000
Yeah, but there's, there's also 
details like, for instance, we 

317
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,100
want to children to do 
exercises, but if you tell a 

318
00:16:30,108 --> 00:16:34,000
child do exercises, how many is 
they are they going to do one or

319
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,200
two or three? 
And for us, the goal was that 

320
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,900
they finished the game. 
So it's basically I think like 

321
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:42,000
something like 20 exercises as a
minion. 

322
00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:44,300
Yeah. 
So if you make an achievement 

323
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,400
that says due to any exercises, 
the chances that they are going 

324
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,000
to do. 
Those 2nd exercise has become 

325
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,200
much higher than if you make an 
achievement itself. 

326
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:52,800
Do exercise. 
Exactly. 

327
00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:54,600
And it's so simple if you read 
it like this. 

328
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:56,900
Oh yeah. 
But yeah before and we had no 

329
00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:58,600
idea. 
How are we going to use these 

330
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,300
mechanisms? 
Yeah so that really helped us 

331
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,900
and I really learned from this. 
Yeah. 

332
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:08,500
Basically this I can imagine 
like you really sound like you 

333
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:11,700
own the domain now, like the way
you explain the reward system, 

334
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:15,800
the point system, even the the 
literature in kind of conquering

335
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,800
those fears. 
And that the kids need to go 

336
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,900
through both personalized, 
right, because standardized for 

337
00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:24,200
some reason, doesn't work not 
every few years the same, you 

338
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,099
really own that domain and in 
other organizations, there's a 

339
00:17:28,108 --> 00:17:31,500
lot more stakeholders and layers
involved for the developers to 

340
00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:35,400
interact with their end users. 
In that way, it's completely 

341
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:36,700
different. 
Current and it sounds like you 

342
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:40,200
kind of found The Sweet Spot in 
in dealing with your 

343
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,000
stakeholders. 
Getting that information and 

344
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,000
implementing in the app in such 
a way that you can get that fast

345
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,800
feedback. 
That's something that when I 

346
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,000
start a project and of course, 
every time you start a project, 

347
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,600
you want to make it better than 
the last one. 

348
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,600
Yeah, you always want to do it 
in a way that you're really 

349
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,700
attached to the user and 
preferably get the feedback from

350
00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:03,400
the actual user. 
Yeah but somehow in practice I 

351
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,300
have I think like 15 years of 
development. 

352
00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:08,900
Yeah, I only experience that a 
couple of times. 

353
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,300
Yeah, in practice it seems to be
harder to. 

354
00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:15,900
There's always a layer in 
between you're just like the 

355
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:20,300
client who doesn't want you to 
talk to the user or your secret.

356
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,500
They build something and they 
want to keep it a secret for the

357
00:18:22,508 --> 00:18:23,300
competitor. 
Yeah. 

358
00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:29,900
And in this specific instance, 
we were yeah we had we basically

359
00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:32,000
did it completely, we did for 
free. 

360
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,100
We can say that we did for free,
but that also meant we could 

361
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:36,800
say. 
OK, if We do it like this. 

362
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,800
We want to try stuff out. 
Yeah I have that ownership. 

363
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,700
Yeah. 
After ownership of the process 

364
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,400
do it in a way that we think 
that this is going to be 

365
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:45,300
helpful. 
Yeah. 

366
00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:49,400
And they the people that wanted 
us to build the app were 

367
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:54,000
completely fine with that. 
They really wanted to get the 

368
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,200
app in the hands of the 
children. 

369
00:18:56,300 --> 00:19:00,100
Yeah and they actually became 
part of the development team 

370
00:19:00,100 --> 00:19:04,000
which is also funny to see if so
if you if you are able to build 

371
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,600
a quick feedback cycle and of 
course Tonight, but it's 

372
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,100
probably easier than with water 
system systems are just too 

373
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:11,800
complex to do that if you build 
an app. 

374
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,700
You can really just make 
something use Frameworks that 

375
00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:21,300
you can build something quickly 
and also get it in a like a test

376
00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:23,600
app store or a test flight. 
For instance, for Apple. 

377
00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:27,900
Yeah, you can just give them the
phone and they got the latest 

378
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:29,700
version of the app. 
And yeah, they have it, they can

379
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:34,700
use it and we yeah, we emulated 
the environment in which they 

380
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:37,600
were using it but of course we 
didn't use children with that 

381
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,600
actual fear. 
So they did it for household 

382
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,500
chores which is kind of funny. 
So they put in They have to do 

383
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:47,000
the dishes, for instance, as a 
task, and then they got a 

384
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,900
reward. 
And then they, I think they went

385
00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:51,800
to the movie theater and a nice.
We gave them some books as well,

386
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,800
those kind of things. 
So the children were they really

387
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,700
liked it. 
They saw this, they actually 

388
00:19:56,700 --> 00:20:00,500
told us, I wish I had to fear 
for something that could use it 

389
00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:06,400
in the actual way, which is, 
it's kind of funny, but so, but 

390
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,100
because we so, we did like, 
two-week Sprints, I think, and 

391
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,500
not every two weeks, we At least
the version but quite frequently

392
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:18,400
and they automatically get this 
version and they use it and then

393
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,900
we did interviews with them. 
So we actually just put the 

394
00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:24,400
phone on the table. 
What I put on the table and went

395
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,600
through it with them and they're
really good. 

396
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,500
Say it like, okay, for instance,
in the beginning, they set these

397
00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:32,500
notifications, don't make any 
sense to me. 

398
00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:36,000
Okay, got a couple of motivate 
notifications a day, but I click

399
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,200
on them. 
I just see a list of 

400
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,800
notifications. 
It's very much noise for us, so 

401
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,100
we completely abandoned it. 
Okay, so modification ID based 

402
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:47,100
on that and we thought okay we 
have to make a structure. 

403
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,400
Hmm, the apps should basically 
give the structure which the 

404
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,000
child has in its hat. 
It should not be like a bunch of

405
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,800
notifications. 
It should really be like 

406
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,600
exercise. 
Want to reform and medal bronze 

407
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,100
medal, gold or reversed the 
road. 

408
00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:04,900
Yeah, should be. 
Yeah, you should take them 

409
00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:07,500
through to the back, basically, 
through the therapy. 

410
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:09,600
Yes, I did know where to begin 
and they know where it ends. 

411
00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:14,800
Yeah, so that was something that
We learned from from working 

412
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,700
with them, but they also 
sometimes thought of things and 

413
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:23,100
we didn't know for sure if that 
was allowed by the literature by

414
00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:25,500
the researchers, or that was 
with the program. 

415
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:28,900
But it was really hard to get 
feedback. 

416
00:21:28,900 --> 00:21:32,400
If you are part of a process, 
you know, the initial ideas, you

417
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,000
work with the children and then 
they help you develop the app. 

418
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,600
But it also means that they 
owned the features basically 

419
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,800
they, okay. 
I want this page to be there. 

420
00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:44,800
And if you then don't do it and 
they get the next version. 

421
00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:48,400
Hey, I told you to that screen. 
Not a page, what happened? 

422
00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:52,300
Yeah, so that meant, we had 
another group of children. 

423
00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:57,000
Okay, where we did Pilots with. 
So do these were not, they 

424
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,500
didn't get frequent updates. 
We Run The the yeah. 

425
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:04,300
Basically the same as we would 
use it in treatment but then 

426
00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:05,700
shorter like for a week for 
instance. 

427
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,500
Yeah. 
And they were able to use an app

428
00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:12,100
that I didn't know. 
Yeah. 

429
00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:13,200
Just a friend. 
Perspective. 

430
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:14,900
We got a fresh perspective X. 
Love that. 

431
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,500
Yeah, so completely different to
kind of feedback and you can 

432
00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:24,300
actually, then validate if the 
choice or original choice was 

433
00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:25,100
okay. 
Yeah. 

434
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,700
That helped a lot but it's 
something that we didn't realize

435
00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:29,400
in the beginning, in the 
beginning with just thought, 

436
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,900
okay, we need to involve these 
user but then when you involve 

437
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:36,300
them and what then what how do 
you how do you know? 

438
00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:38,500
Yeah, but you produce is still 
valid. 

439
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,000
I get that you've mentioned. 
Sometimes you didn't know that 

440
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,000
in the beginning but you did 
Make these steps and take these 

441
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,600
steps to integrate into kind of 
shift. 

442
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,400
Either your process or the 
product that you were building. 

443
00:22:49,700 --> 00:22:52,400
Did you make those decisions as 
a group, or did someone just be 

444
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,700
like, well, I think we need this
and try things out and see if 

445
00:22:55,700 --> 00:23:00,300
they go. 
Yeah, I think that was we were 

446
00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:04,700
really flat as a group. 
Yeah, which is, it is funny 

447
00:23:04,700 --> 00:23:09,700
because I work with two students
and, of course, I have a lot of 

448
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:11,400
experience and they just start 
out. 

449
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:15,700
And then you have these 
researchers which are basically 

450
00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:19,100
experts their domain. 
So I'm not the person that going

451
00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:20,600
to tell you something about 
anxiety. 

452
00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:23,700
I'm so right. 
And you know, exactly but still,

453
00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:30,000
if you're working together 
closely, I think and you deal 

454
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,700
with this product together, it 
becomes easier to discuss things

455
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:37,600
even if you have different 
experience, levels or different 

456
00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:42,400
backgrounds. 
Yeah, so definitely wanted Putin

457
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,100
said that yeah, it would be nice
if he can I don't know if 

458
00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:49,300
validated with the with another 
group of people or maybe we 

459
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:52,400
should make some more mock-ups. 
Yeah, that was definitely 

460
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:53,800
appreciated and that happened a 
lot. 

461
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,200
And that actually is something 
that I also took to my current 

462
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,400
project. 
Okay, I'm not building an app 

463
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,400
right now, but I do think we 
have a relation where where we 

464
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,500
can equally discuss the 
impending if you're a junior 

465
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,000
software engineer or your 
product owner, or your CTO even,

466
00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:13,500
yeah, it's nice. 
If you have that environment. 

467
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,800
Yeah, if everybody just can and 
can speak their mind. 

468
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:21,200
And I like it. 
When, when students or Junior 

469
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,900
Engineers, join a project that 
they come with this fresh fresh 

470
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:30,400
set of eyes because they come 
from University now, or college,

471
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:34,400
and it has changed and the time,
and they completely have a 

472
00:24:34,408 --> 00:24:37,100
different approach to life. 
Even, I don't want to say I'm 

473
00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:40,700
old, but there's definitely a 
different perspective for people

474
00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:44,400
who start out on. 
Working now depending if you 

475
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,600
compare it like 15 years ago 
yeah there's not there's not a 

476
00:24:47,608 --> 00:24:49,300
right or a wrong perspective, 
right? 

477
00:24:49,300 --> 00:24:52,100
It's just an opinion. 
And at some point you say well 

478
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:54,200
we think this is the best one. 
We're going to test it. 

479
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:55,600
See if it works. 
If yes. 

480
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,500
Great doesn't matter who it 
comes from because it's still a 

481
00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:01,300
group, right? 
And as a group as a team you go 

482
00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:04,600
towards that goal, I love that 
you say, quote, hierarchy wise 

483
00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:08,100
doesn't matter really who you 
are what your level of expertise

484
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,600
is because we're doing this 
together, and it's kind of a 

485
00:25:10,608 --> 00:25:14,100
team setting in that way. 
That also explains why in an 

486
00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:17,600
organization where there is a 
bit more hierarchy and a lot 

487
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,800
more communication, a lot more 
people involved. 

488
00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:23,300
It's harder to do that. 
Yeah for me it depends really on

489
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:27,000
the project if it's if it's 
possible at all and whether it 

490
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,000
will work. 
Yeah. 

491
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,100
So if you gave you have done 
multiple projects, you always 

492
00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:34,300
have these ups and downs and 
sometimes it works very well to 

493
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:38,300
work in a hierarchical way. 
But yeah if you experience it 

494
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,300
that everybody is able to 
provide input for me that it 

495
00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:44,500
feels better. 
Yeah, that makes sense and also 

496
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,700
a lot of times because we work 
in a complex field a lot of 

497
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:50,100
times we just don't know what to
do. 

498
00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:53,600
We have a problem or you want to
make something or build 

499
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,800
something, and there's different
options and people, sometimes 

500
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,700
people are more religiously like
take a programming language. 

501
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:04,500
Some people say you have to 
build it in this order, Billy. 

502
00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:07,200
I have to build in that and in 
the end, it does not really 

503
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,000
matter. 
No. 

504
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,000
So I don't know where I got it 
from. 

505
00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:14,500
But it wasn't some kind of 
someone's presentation 

506
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,500
conference talk. 
And he said, if you have a 

507
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:23,000
problem you discuss it and you 
discuss the pros and cons. 

508
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,100
Yeah. 
And then you can make a decision

509
00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:29,300
but sometimes it keeps being a 
discussion so you keep going in 

510
00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:30,700
circles. 
Yeah, and done. 

511
00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:36,300
It doesn't matter which one you 
choose because probably because 

512
00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:39,300
there's so much discussion both 
are valid or not. 

513
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,900
Yeah. 
So you can choose either one You

514
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:46,900
just have to be prepared to 
switch to the other one, if it 

515
00:26:46,908 --> 00:26:50,200
doesn't work. 
So you can just say, we don't 

516
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,300
know. 
We have a discussion. 

517
00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:54,500
We don't know which one is good.
We check a randomly. 

518
00:26:54,500 --> 00:26:58,500
Yeah, but we evaluated for maybe
one Sprint now, if it doesn't 

519
00:26:58,500 --> 00:26:59,800
work, we have to switch to the 
other. 

520
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,700
Yeah. 
And that makes it far easier to 

521
00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:04,000
make decisions. 
Yeah, because sometimes it's 

522
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,500
just a matter of going in 
circles and depending on who you

523
00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:09,400
talk to there will be a good 
answer. 

524
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,000
Yeah. 
But it's not really, you don't 

525
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,700
really have to Feeling that. 
Okay, we have to do a Sounds 

526
00:27:15,700 --> 00:27:17,900
really easy, right? 
If you can just say. 

527
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:20,700
Okay, let's pick one. 
Yeah, that's so relatable. 

528
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,600
In a lot of discussions, you 
might just be going on in 

529
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,500
circles and because of that, 
you're stuck, right? 

530
00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:29,400
Unless someone actually picks 
one of the two and as you lay it

531
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,700
out, when our discussion 
happens, like that probably both

532
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:35,100
of them. 
You could pick just check and 

533
00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:38,200
make sure that what you pick is 
good for the cause that you need

534
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:39,700
it. 
In other words, pivot to the 

535
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:41,300
other one and test if that one 
works. 

536
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,200
Yeah. 
I think you have to be aware of 

537
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,500
that one. 
Yeah, but it also means that 

538
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:47,200
there An environment of failure,
right? 

539
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,600
Well, failure as possible at 
least. 

540
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,100
Yeah, that makes sense. 
Also something that's hard but 

541
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:53,300
you it comes up more and more 
than people say you should be 

542
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:55,400
able to fail because otherwise 
you cannot learn. 

543
00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:57,500
Yeah. 
And of course if you have a 

544
00:27:57,508 --> 00:28:00,300
project and it takes a lot of 
money and you want to be there 

545
00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:04,500
first, you cannot say we build 
something for a year and and 

546
00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:06,000
then notice we built around 
things. 

547
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,400
So yeah, I don't think you can 
say, Okay, failure is always an 

548
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,600
option. 
You can, you can, like make may 

549
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,600
be compacted right? 
If you set the boundaries and 

550
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,300
say okay, We spent two weeks on 
it and then if you notice, it's 

551
00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:19,000
the wrong team. 
Yeah, then it was only two 

552
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:19,800
weeks. 
Yeah. 

553
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,500
So then I think it definitely 
works, but be aware that the 

554
00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:26,300
yeah, throw away again. 
Like you said in the beginning, 

555
00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:27,800
you should be able to throw away
stuff. 

556
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,100
Yeah, that makes sense. 
I mean, when you mentioned all 

557
00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:32,800
the way in the beginning, when 
the researchers came to you, 

558
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,200
with this idea, did you already 
have this kind of structure idea

559
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,900
of how you want to approach 
this? 

560
00:28:38,300 --> 00:28:41,700
Or did you also try things along
the way and see what worked 

561
00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:45,400
process wise, for example, you 
mentioned having kids Kind of 

562
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,200
the involved in the process of 
developing the app or getting 

563
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,800
the app as soon as possible in 
their hands, did you already 

564
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,900
have an idea of how you wanted 
to do that? 

565
00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:57,800
Or did you try things out? 
So I cannot completely say that 

566
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,300
from the beginning. 
I had this planned out. 

567
00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:01,100
Yeah I get that just too much 
credit. 

568
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,900
Actually I was kind of a little 
bit worried in the beginning. 

569
00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:08,600
Yeah because I always find it 
hard if people don't know what I

570
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,500
want, if I want to build stuff 
but I want to know what I should

571
00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:14,100
be. 
And I'm also not really a person

572
00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:16,600
of like a An interpreter ship or
something? 

573
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:17,000
This. 
Yeah. 

574
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,900
So for me it's also bit hard to 
imagine what it should be. 

575
00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:21,700
So in the beginning I really 
struggled. 

576
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:23,800
Okay? 
A lot wit with okay, we need a 

577
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,500
nap and it helps treating 
anxiety. 

578
00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:29,900
Yeah, yeah, I really, really 
struggled with that. 

579
00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:35,300
The good thing is that the 
principal investigator? 

580
00:29:35,300 --> 00:29:38,700
So the one person with the idea 
that the got, the grant already 

581
00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:40,600
had tidy to involve the 
children. 

582
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,600
So, yeah, came from them, which 
is really good. 

583
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:47,600
And they also basically, They 
have to write the project 

584
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,400
structure before they got the 
grant. 

585
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,200
So you have to kind of indeed 
already tell that the ground to 

586
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,400
the ground provider and that 
you're going to use children to 

587
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,300
help you. 
And what I just and big groups 

588
00:30:01,300 --> 00:30:02,900
are. 
Yeah, so that came from them. 

589
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:05,300
So that already helped. 
And going from there, it was 

590
00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:11,200
like, okay, if we have two 
children that help us, what are 

591
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,400
we going to do? 
How are we going to involve 

592
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,300
them? 
So we thought, okay, we have to 

593
00:30:15,300 --> 00:30:17,300
do a workshop at what's a 
workshop. 

594
00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:21,800
If you do a workshop with adults
it gets sticky notes, right? 

595
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,200
Yeah. 
Some kind of format where you 

596
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,000
write something, but only one 
put down. 

597
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,200
People follow them. 
Take that. 

598
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,800
Ya got that approach but 
children don't really at least, 

599
00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:31,900
I think it's 11:53. 
Okay. 

600
00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:34,300
That's kind of a big age range 
because 7 is Young. 

601
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,500
Yeah, but 12 is almost at all in
some cases so that was all that 

602
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:40,000
was also something that we had 
to work with. 

603
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,100
Yeah. 
So then we thought, okay, we 

604
00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:45,500
have to there's only one option 
we have to give them The thing 

605
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:47,800
that we are building and then 
they can provide feedback. 

606
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:48,700
So yeah. 
Yeah. 

607
00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:54,500
It gradually came from from that
angle and that we combined of 

608
00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:58,700
course with yeah. 
Did the way we used to work is 

609
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,000
small iterations and what are 
you doing, scrum or something? 

610
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,700
That look like it. 
Some small iterations, where you

611
00:31:05,100 --> 00:31:09,200
preferably have something 
finished after for instance, two

612
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:09,900
weeks. 
Yeah. 

613
00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:12,800
I'm not like a half products but
really something that you can 

614
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:13,700
use. 
Yeah. 

615
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,400
And Paper. 
That story sounds like a good 

616
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,800
idea practice. 
Again, if you have a big project

617
00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:24,100
and there's lots of features and
then it's always a little bit 

618
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:25,800
harder because you build 
something, but then, you know. 

619
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,300
Okay, I have to log in and you 
need to database and we need to 

620
00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:30,500
test environment. 
Oh yeah. 

621
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:32,900
All these things come together 
and then two weeks becomes a 

622
00:31:32,908 --> 00:31:36,300
three months. 
Yeah, and with these children, 

623
00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:40,100
we really were forced. 
Okay, we have to do something. 

624
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,300
Okay, that's start bit more 
cups. 

625
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,700
It's easiest. 
Yeah, just yeah. 

626
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,100
Something as soon as possible. 
Yeah. 

627
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,400
And then the second step was. 
Okay, let's get an app framework

628
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,500
that we can use to build an app 
quickly without a without a back

629
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:56,700
end. 
You just have the app show that 

630
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:04,200
and it was also people talk 
about multiple viable product, 

631
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,500
for instance, which is something
that you can take really far 

632
00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:12,000
once a word phrase years ago. 
Who said, if you want to build a

633
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,300
web store, just have a list with
list of products and Or email 

634
00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:16,300
address? 
Yeah, it's enough. 

635
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:18,000
That's a web show. 
I can't eat anymore. 

636
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,000
And of course that's like a 
raging, but you can still do it.

637
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,500
We could still could still have 
a successful app. 

638
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,900
If the only thing it did was 
give a daily reminder. 

639
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,200
That said, you now have to do 
exercise one and you have to do 

640
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,500
extra has two and then the 
exercises would just be in 

641
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:39,000
paper. 
Yeah, so that was basically our 

642
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,400
fallback, right? 
So nice. 

643
00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:43,700
And we thought if it doesn't 
work the product, the the app 

644
00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:47,500
development because It's a 
complicated or we work with 

645
00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:49,700
students. 
We get done, cat is working. 

646
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:54,000
Okay, we just do this thing 
daily reminders with the number 

647
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,300
which exercise and we just give 
it to them on paper and that's 

648
00:32:56,300 --> 00:33:00,100
actually what our client 
proposed and that really gave us

649
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:04,600
a sense of relief because that 
means that whatever you do the 

650
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,900
thing that you have to deliver 
is worth maybe one or two weeks 

651
00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:11,100
and that means if you have that 
full pack, you can then take 

652
00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:14,000
more risks, you can then go on 
and go in a direction and say, 

653
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,700
okay, now we need to Backtrack a
bit. 

654
00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:17,800
Yeah. 
So that gave us a big sense of 

655
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,800
relief if you have that full 
back and it of course it sounds 

656
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,600
really stupid because it's just 
actually the 99% of the a piece 

657
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,800
of paper and up dust only a 
little bit of. 

658
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,000
Yeah, start with it. 
The ID helped us. 

659
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,800
Yeah, I can imagine that. 
It's it's probably such a relief

660
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,800
in the way that things that 
you're doing and also in the 

661
00:33:35,808 --> 00:33:38,800
decision-making, right? 
Because I don't know if this is 

662
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,500
true. 
So correct me if I'm wrong but 

663
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:42,700
there was probably a time frame 
in which you needed to deliver 

664
00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:46,300
the app that was agreed upon. 
On with the people that gave the

665
00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:50,400
Grant in, which there was some 
kind of time pressure in 

666
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,500
delivering, what needed to 
deliver. 

667
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:53,200
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

668
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,900
That's definitely true. 
There's from from the grant 

669
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,900
perspective, there's a time 
frame but also because you make 

670
00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:03,800
agreements with other 
universities and the people that

671
00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:05,900
do the therapy need to be 
trained. 

672
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:08,900
So there's actual therapists 
using this app and they need to 

673
00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:11,900
be trained with the app and 
that's all part of the bigger 

674
00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:12,900
project. 
Yeah. 

675
00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:17,100
So definitely there was an end 
it I think we did it. 

676
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:20,400
We did here or something 
roughly, OK, monster a year. 

677
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:21,800
Something that was the time 
frame. 

678
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,000
Yeah. 
And that's also kind of lines up

679
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,600
with an internship. 
Most internships are like nine 

680
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:28,699
months. 
That's nice. 

681
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:30,100
Yeah. 
Went for the students. 

682
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:33,199
I was also yeah that's an 
amazing project to work on as a 

683
00:34:33,207 --> 00:34:36,199
student and as well yeah they 
liked it a lot that we used it 

684
00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:41,000
as like in the job advertisement
or we're going to build this app

685
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,600
and it will be used by a real 
real children with real research

686
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,300
and yeah, That's what I really 
liked and it's good to build 

687
00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:52,300
something for a specific group. 
So yeah gives more. 

688
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:55,199
How do you say most makes more 
concrete? 

689
00:34:55,300 --> 00:34:58,600
Yeah, if you know that it has to
be for a child that has a 

690
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,900
specific fear and it's between 
this and this age. 

691
00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:04,500
Yeah, it's kind of gives you a 
purpose or what you're doing. 

692
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,800
Yeah, and sometimes that is 
lacking if you're doing it for 

693
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,800
an End, customer who you don't 
even speak to face to face in 

694
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:10,700
the end. 
Yeah, that's true. 

695
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,100
Yeah, and the way you did it to 
me like, as an engineer, it kind

696
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:16,900
of sounds like the Holy Grail. 
Of how the process should be 

697
00:35:16,900 --> 00:35:18,900
right. 
Getting the product, as fast as 

698
00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:22,400
possible live in the hands of 
the user, even though it's not 

699
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,800
even finished. 
It's just an MVP and getting 

700
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,900
that feedback testing the 
assumptions iterating new 

701
00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:31,700
version and just go as you go. 
So I love hearing that. 

702
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,300
Yeah. 
I think from that perspective, 

703
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:36,900
it was definitely something that
that was very good to 

704
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:38,000
experience. 
Yeah. 

705
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,600
Thank you want to build it in 
this certain way and if you 

706
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,000
involve the people it was still 
for me. 

707
00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:47,400
It was like the first time I 
really did it like this. 

708
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,600
And you also notice, then that 
your, you have to cut Corners a 

709
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,200
little bit on other things that 
you normally do. 

710
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,300
Like, for instance, normally I 
would spend more time on quality

711
00:35:57,300 --> 00:35:58,300
assurance. 
Yeah. 

712
00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:03,400
Yeah, if you do like continues, 
deliveries stuff like that. 

713
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,600
That you really have an 
automatic test set and it's 

714
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,800
really hard and it's secure and 
reliable. 

715
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,400
Yeah. 
And I think we spent a lot of 

716
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,500
effort getting building the 
thing that we wanted for the 

717
00:36:15,500 --> 00:36:16,400
children. 
Yeah. 

718
00:36:16,500 --> 00:36:19,300
But then in the end we still had
a lot of bucks left. 

719
00:36:19,300 --> 00:36:22,300
Not like not like an extreme 
amount but she still needed some

720
00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:26,500
work like shit behind your 
computer and just fix those box 

721
00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:29,700
which is yeah it's good. 
Learn. 

722
00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:33,200
It's good to see that you can do
stuff in a certain way and it's 

723
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,200
not perfected. 
It's hard to get things. 

724
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,100
Perfect. 
Exactly. 

725
00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:39,300
There's lots of aspects and you 
want to make something that's 

726
00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:40,800
reliable and secure our videos 
way? 

727
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,700
You want to give it to the user 
soon? 

728
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,600
Yeah, and yeah, it's a balancing
act and I think you learn from 

729
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:48,600
both kind of way. 
So I learned from the projects, 

730
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,500
I do where I make something 
super reliable, but takes a bit 

731
00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:52,700
more time. 
And you also learn from the 

732
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:55,400
projects where you get something
to the user fast, but you cut 

733
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,300
some corners and then probably 
you have to do something in 

734
00:36:58,300 --> 00:36:59,900
between for the next. 
Project. 

735
00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:02,100
Yeah. 
So you're always learning from 

736
00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:04,400
these things and I can 
definitely do not say this was 

737
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,200
the most perfect project, but in
terms of user involvement, I 

738
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:07,600
would say. 
Yeah. 

739
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,200
This was a good experience. 
Yeah, I love hearing that. 

740
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,700
There's always a scale in which 
you operate, right? 

741
00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:15,400
Can either be cutting corners 
and getting it as fast as 

742
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,200
possible? 
And maybe this might have been 

743
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,600
the project in which that was 
necessary giving the time frame 

744
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,600
and it's still a proof of 
concept that they're going to 

745
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,800
test. 
So cutting Corners in quality. 

746
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,000
Might then be pretty okay 
because it's not We used maybe 

747
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,300
five years down the line. 
Might have a completely new 

748
00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:35,800
version or a new iteration, 
which doesn't involve the 

749
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,400
initial proof of concept that 
definitely fine. 

750
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:41,300
Yeah, it's also that something 
some things you just have to ask

751
00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:45,000
because we were like, okay, if 
this is used by a lot of users 

752
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,400
and then we need to make sure 
that the back end is able to 

753
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,000
handle it that because we have 
it, how many children are going 

754
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,800
to participate and how many are 
going to be in the app condition

755
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,900
and then turned out that it was 
only a handful. 

756
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,700
Yeah. 
And then it's like okay but then

757
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:59,200
you don't have to bake super 
scalable backend and even if 

758
00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:01,200
Something goes wrong. 
You can manually fix it. 

759
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,400
Yes, of just a handful of users.
It's completely different than. 

760
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,800
If you have thousands 
transactions per minute, when 

761
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,800
something fails in Thousand 
protection for permanent. 

762
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,300
You still, you end up with lots 
of data? 

763
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,300
Yeah, corruption. 
But if something fails with only

764
00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:15,600
five users, yeah, that's a great
point. 

765
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,600
Just make sure in what scope 
they're gonna. 

766
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:19,100
So you have to check this. 
Yes. 

767
00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:22,200
Yeah. 
How shoot you basically scale 

768
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,200
the app for that and sometimes, 
yeah, it's not needed at all. 

769
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,400
You can make it yeah. 
Cut your Madeira, where it's 

770
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:31,400
less pain. 
Yes. 

771
00:38:31,900 --> 00:38:35,000
Yeah the completely makes sense.
So now you've developed this 

772
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,400
idea into a product and then I'm
going to test it kind of A/B 

773
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,600
test with. 
So the that's now the plan 

774
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,000
there. 
So they are now recruiting 

775
00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:45,700
actual children with an anxiety.
Yeah. 

776
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,900
And then they're going to make 
two groups and basically one 

777
00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:50,600
with one without. 
Yeah. 

778
00:38:50,700 --> 00:38:53,800
Yeah. 
And then run run the run. 

779
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,800
The project also do the whole 
thing, probably. 

780
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,100
I think it will take around five
weeks or so. 

781
00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:01,100
Okay, please the whole thing a 
little bit. 

782
00:39:01,100 --> 00:39:02,400
Depending how much you do of 
course. 

783
00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:04,100
Yeah. 
And then they are, they have to 

784
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:07,500
analyze and write everything 
down and it will take of course 

785
00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:13,900
a while because research this 
works with a different time for.

786
00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:15,000
Yeah laughter. 
Yeah. 

787
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,400
That's to be processed. 
Have to submit it and then you 

788
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:22,200
can publish it. 
Hopefully, if it's good and 

789
00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:25,100
that's actually that's actually 
funny because all the people 

790
00:39:25,100 --> 00:39:27,000
involved say, okay, where can we
download it? 

791
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,100
Oh yeah, especially therapist I 
did this. 

792
00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:30,700
Good instrument, that want to 
have it. 

793
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:34,000
And it's it is in the App Store,
but you cannot really use it 

794
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,600
because it has to be with the 
therapist. 

795
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,900
Yeah, can download it with. 
The name is Kiba, you can find 

796
00:39:38,900 --> 00:39:41,100
it but it's not unique really 
useful. 

797
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:45,000
But of course the idea is the 
eventual goal was to build 

798
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,200
something that can be used by 
people, but it has to be 

799
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,300
validated first, but exactly. 
So the world around the app is 

800
00:39:50,300 --> 00:39:55,100
really excited to use it, but 
need a little bit of time to. 

801
00:39:55,100 --> 00:39:57,300
Yeah, validate of that, which is
good. 

802
00:39:57,300 --> 00:39:58,900
I think as well. 
Yeah. 

803
00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:00,900
I mean That's that's the only 
way, right? 

804
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,300
Even in start-up, you build an 
MVP and you validate your 

805
00:40:04,300 --> 00:40:07,800
product before you throw some 
more money at it and do the 

806
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:08,600
whole shebang. 
Yeah. 

807
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,600
In personalizing both the 
rewards and the things that kids

808
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,700
do that's still the the initial 
conversation you have right with

809
00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:17,700
the therapist. 
Yeah, yeah. 

810
00:40:17,707 --> 00:40:19,700
That's part of the the first 
session. 

811
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,600
Yeah, they said basically sit 
down together and have to write 

812
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,700
it down the exercise? 
Yeah, the mess that the also 

813
00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:28,900
influenced, how many exercises? 
Because in the beginning we had 

814
00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:31,700
lots of Exercise has been 
thinking of all these exercise 

815
00:40:31,700 --> 00:40:34,400
writing them out Downs, just 
takes some time. 

816
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:37,500
Yeah, but I was actually one of 
the things that was validated 

817
00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:40,500
during the feedback sessions. 
If they have to think of all the

818
00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:44,600
exercises, how can we make sure 
we have enough content in a 

819
00:40:44,607 --> 00:40:46,400
short amount of time? 
That's where we came up with. 

820
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,000
That idea is if you think of a 
task you can you can basically 

821
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,300
do it in three levels. 
Now you only have to think of 

822
00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:55,600
the task once but you already 
have three exercises. 

823
00:40:55,700 --> 00:40:58,500
So, you triple the exercises 
only for free? 

824
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:01,600
Which is the other, I really 
like that, that that those 

825
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,000
things that those details that 
you cannot imagine how it would 

826
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,600
work or how to twerk. 
Yeah. 

827
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:11,000
But if you if you do it, that's 
been an expert is there as well.

828
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,100
And they can say okay. 
But if we say OK, we do 5 

829
00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:16,100
minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes.
Yeah, we have three exercises in

830
00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:19,100
that direction. 
Yeah, I was, I was wondering 

831
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:23,000
what kind of final question. 
I have is so you've laid out the

832
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,900
things you've learned on a 
process level also on a 

833
00:41:25,908 --> 00:41:28,500
practicality level, right? 
It went in that conversation in 

834
00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:30,700
robustness. 
Where's the speed of delivery 

835
00:41:31,500 --> 00:41:34,100
and a bit of stakeholder 
Management in kind of testing 

836
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:37,900
assumptions and validating and 
in dealing with kids and 

837
00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:40,700
researchers? 
At the same time, what do you 

838
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:44,700
think is the the most important 
takeaway you've had in that last

839
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:47,500
year of the app development? 
Or is it hard to choose? 

840
00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:50,300
Because I can imagine that as a 
really hard question, but I 

841
00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:54,500
definitely think that working 
with the tangible thing. 

842
00:41:54,700 --> 00:42:00,800
Yeah, helped us the most so it's
something that I Try to take in.

843
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,200
Yeah, in my the rest of my work 
that if you have a discussion 

844
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,800
about something is really helps 
if you can look at the thing you

845
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:10,800
discussing. 
Yeah. 

846
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,100
Just hold it. 
Touch it. 

847
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,200
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

848
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,000
I don't know. 
I did you pansies to is it the 

849
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,000
process or is the mock-up or is 
it an app or is the website? 

850
00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:21,900
There's always a possibility to 
yeah, to make something, get 

851
00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:26,700
something together and then and 
it can even be flow him stick 

852
00:42:26,700 --> 00:42:27,700
his own. 
A wall is still. 

853
00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:31,000
I think that you can point out 
With the mock-ups you started 

854
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,600
initially with. 
Yeah. 

855
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,900
And, and 44 program or process 
things is things. 

856
00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:40,000
We did not indeed this project 
in other projects where we 

857
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,800
basically had a similar problem.
We don't know what people want. 

858
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,500
A different people want 
different things. 

859
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:48,100
What happens a lot is that there
is money. 

860
00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:50,000
There's a problem. 
Yeah. 

861
00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:53,300
People think oh we have to spend
this money on that problem and 

862
00:42:53,300 --> 00:42:55,000
that's that's the only thing you
have. 

863
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,800
Yeah something that's called 
event storming by about oh 

864
00:42:58,808 --> 00:43:01,200
Brenda Leigh. 
Any is basically people just 

865
00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:06,900
stick things that happen in the 
world on the wall and everything

866
00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:08,500
is allowed. 
That's really what I like. 

867
00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:11,300
Everyone can put things that you
don't have to be technical, you 

868
00:43:11,308 --> 00:43:14,100
don't have to be CEO. 
Everyone can contribute. 

869
00:43:14,900 --> 00:43:18,100
And then once these things are 
on the wall, people can just 

870
00:43:18,100 --> 00:43:20,400
point at it and say, okay, we 
don't do it like that or we 

871
00:43:20,408 --> 00:43:23,800
should do it like that or I 
would like different and because

872
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,500
you see them hanging on the 
wall, it gives you something to 

873
00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:28,100
look at. 
And it doesn't basically doesn't

874
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:29,200
matter what this. 
Yeah. 

875
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:32,900
As long as you have a point of 
reference that you can go from. 

876
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:34,900
I love that answer. 
Then we're not just talking 

877
00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:38,300
about concept, but then you can 
actually see what's happening. 

878
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,600
Instead of it just being in your
head, you can point on it and be

879
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,300
like, well this is actually not 
the way but this is the right 

880
00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:46,300
way. 
I've done this workshop at 

881
00:43:46,300 --> 00:43:49,400
clients and it happened that 
after 2 hours which I thought, 

882
00:43:49,408 --> 00:43:51,800
okay, we are not going to do 
this project. 

883
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,500
We are completely clear about 
how it should work. 

884
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:57,700
And yeah, it doesn't make any 
sense to spend any money, and, 

885
00:43:57,700 --> 00:43:59,800
and they were happy. 
Yeah, it's only Two hours. 

886
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,600
Instead of, I don't know a year 
or two years. 

887
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,800
Yeah, basically help awesome. 
I love it, man. 

888
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,300
Aaron, thank you for coming on. 
Thank you very much. 

889
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:11,600
I love your story. 
Love it a lot. 

890
00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:13,400
So that's that's rounded off 
there. 

891
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,700
Then cool air in the feed, 
everyone. 

892
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,600
From your sponsors Z Bia, 
creating digital leaders.