Hi everyone, my name is Patrick Kyo and no matter if you're
looking for a job right now or anytime in the future, we have
some hidden gems, some insider info and value for you to take
with you on that journey. Joining me today is Keki Muaba
from South Africa, based in the Netherlands and recruiter turned
career coach. Honestly, this conversation was
eye opening and I'll definitely give it every listen when I'm
looking for a job. Enjoy.
Have you seen kind of from the perspective of a career coach,
the market nowadays being different than how it was let's
say a few years back? Because I really believe that a
few years back I saw posts online of people switching jobs
and within a few, I mean even days where they would just get
spammed with opportunities. And nowadays, especially for
people early in career, I feel like it's harder out there.
Have you noticed something similar?
Yeah, I think the market changes a lot to be honest.
You know it goes through UPS, downs, waves also really depends
on the the industry that you're in.
But let's say if we were just to look at maybe the last year or
two, I think what we saw before that was especially tech hired a
lot and even in recruitment we'd have these ambitious goals.
We need to double the size of the team.
We need to scale the product and hyper growth was like the main
word. I'm sure you heard companies
being super proud that we're in like hyper growth mode.
Yeah. And I even though I was part of
those teams hiring, I think I was always a bit suspicious if
hyper growth is a good thing compared to sustainable growth
which is focusing on OK long term how is this going to serve
our company, our product, our services that we that we are
offering. So with that I think there was
quite a bit of hiring and then that sort of started to slow
down a little bit. So maybe instead of hiring 50
people yesterday, they're like OK, cool, maybe let's focus on
just hiring several people this month or let's look quite
critically around our headcount and budgeting and all of that.
So because that seemed to slow down and companies were a lot
more intentional, it gave the illusion that maybe hiring is
slowing, but that's not not necessarily the case.
But I will say that with, you know, the last years too, maybe
they have been a lot of layoffs, layoffs particularly within like
bigger tech companies. I think that's quite a well
known fact. But it comes in waves, right?
Usually the companies lay people off, the stock price goes up,
they start hiring again. So it's very much up and down.
And I think as much as I loved recruitment that was sort of
both a pro and a con that it can be super ambitious goals then
like stop and then OK, slowly hiring, then stop or something.
So that may be some of the shifts that maybe you're
observing in the market, but I'm curious even for you as a as a
software engineer, I'm sure you know you got a lot of LinkedIn
DMS from recruiters over the years.
Would you say like you feel like that slowed down or do you still
feel like there are as many roles as they were maybe like
3-4 years ago for example? When it comes to my own, the
messages I get like on a one to one basis, I feel like it
definitely slowed down. And I don't know.
I mean, I didn't really update my LinkedIn profile that much,
but let's say it's been stable for the last few years, then the
only thing that changed would be the market.
So that kind of goes into maybe my bias of it's definitely
slowed down. That's the feeling I have
before. I did get messages and like
those people that say I have every week a few messages.
Now it would not be that much, but I did get messages.
And the ones that really stuck with me would be the ones that
are really personal, to the point where someone would
actually just record a video of themselves talking about stuff
that he saw my profile and being like, oh, we can chat if you
want. And at the time, I wasn't really
interested at all. And I'm still not really
interested. But yeah, it is kind of a notion
that I saw. My brother just came out of
university like a few months back, did a bachelor in
econometrics, and they always say at the University of
Amsterdam is one of the hardest bachelors to complete.
And for some reason they tacked on data science at his final
year. So he graduated and got an extra
econometrics and data science bachelors.
And he was looking around and he says definitely for like junior
roles, it's really hard to get the foot in the door and to
actually start having a conversation.
And most of the times, what really brought him down, because
this has been a journey, was that he didn't really get
feedback either on his resume or the interview process at all.
Or he would not really get a good feeling of the people that
he would talk to the representatives of the company,
so that he wouldn't really be motivated to continue with an
interview process at all. And I feel like I never
experienced something like that, especially in my kind of early
career a few years back. Yeah, yeah.
Now I get that. And I think that with your
brother's experience that's shared across many people.
And I mean that's a really good degree.
Econometrics and data science from a pretty reputable school.
I think that, you know, I also studied here in the Netherlands.
I did my master's and I was very fortunate to receive a
scholarship to study here. And I think for me, even
graduating, I really struggled on the job market as well, even
though this was, you know, quite a few years ago.
I think that I also lacked confidence because I felt OK, I
I don't speak Dutch, I need visa sponsorship, I don't have that
much work experience. Who's going to hire me?
So I think I took like a very proactive search when it came to
looking for a job because I realized that maybe it might be
a little bit harder than for me than people who you know, speak
the language, maybe from Europe and have a network already.
So I had to go above and beyond in terms of like messaging
people on LinkedIn really slash stalking people at times
respectfully stalking though Yeah, I'm kidding.
But you know really researching companies.
So I think that's a lot of the time how I got my my foot in the
door. But I think that companies these
days sometimes want to finish product in terms of someone who
already has, you know, quite a few work experience or one to
two years experience for a junior role.
And a junior role to me should mean zero work experience
because you know you need to get work experience sometimes, or
even for internships. Even internships might require
that you've got at least a year of internship experience.
So I think a junior role does require resources from a
company's perspective in terms of time.
It needs to be someone to mentor this person to teach this
person, to really invest in them.
There needs to be a lot more structure.
As you know, this person may not have ever worked before, so they
need to be taught how to work and some companies aren't at a
stage where they maybe want to invest that time or see the the
benefit of that. So I think that's maybe why
they're less junior roles available now.
So I always encourage people, even when they're in university,
you're ready to start building their network, even just with
your friends. Like for example your brother,
I'm sure he knew great people in his class.
Maybe those people knew people or something.
So I think the point of looking for a job actually starts
probably before you graduate and even more so it's important now
given the the job market. Yeah, yeah, I fully agree with
that. I I saw on LinkedIn you've
worked at companies that are quite reputable flow traders.
Reddit, Disney, Uber, even. I mean it.
I I know Alex from the podcast and you know Alex as well, and
he recommended Gerge. And Gerge also used to work at
Uber. So there's this quite an
interesting network. I feel like that that happens at
the more high profile companies. How'd you get your foot in the
door? Let's say at the first one you
said you came out of uni, Did not have a European passport,
did not speak Dutch. In any case, how'd you get your
foot in the door? Yeah.
So my first job actually in Amsterdam was at Dawa Airport.
Yeah, the coffee company, which I'm sure you've had their
coffee. Yeah, I worked with them also.
I did, yeah. Yeah.
Oh, very cool. Nice.
So yeah, So I was actually drinking one of their their
coffees and I was curious. I was like, I wonder if they're
hiring, right? So I went on their career page
and I was looking for like a junior HR recruitment role.
I saw absolutely no roles. So because I was very confident
or desperate, to me, I think it's the same thing.
Different the same, yeah. Yeah, desperate.
I I thought, hey, let me just call the reception at DAWA
Experts and just ask to speak to someone in HR.
No way. So I called them and I said, hi,
my name's Kiki. I'd like to speak to someone in
HR and they put me through and I was like, no, that's usually
when they hang up. I'd done this many times before.
I'd never gotten this far. So I spoke to a lovely lady
called Anika Kietz who was my manager, Derek Butz.
And she's she's an amazing recruiter.
And I asked her, I was like, are you hiring junior HR or
recruitment roles by any chance? And she was like, we don't have
anything open at the moment. But actually, you know, we have
a lot of work and I might need an assistant at some point.
So why don't you just send me ACV?
And I was like, oh OK cool. So she's I sent her my CV and
she said, OK, I'll keep this in mind.
I'll let you know if anything comes up.
And I was like, oh, I've heard that before, we'll get back to
you. And I'm like, but I followed up
and I kept following up like just checking if anything comes
up. And she said, yeah, we've now
got approved headcount to hire a junior person.
And why didn't you come in for an interview?
So I came in for an interview and got the job, and that was my
first job in Amsterdam actually. No way.
Yeah, I'd love that story. That's amazing.
You went kind of above and beyond and just shot your shot,
right? If no one would have done that,
you wouldn't have landed your job and you did something
probably no one else would essentially call the company.
It's really cool. I've never heard that before.
No, it's amazing. Yeah, I think a lot of people
sometimes rely also on open vacancies on career pages when a
lot of roles aren't actually advertised.
So let's say I've got a scenario for you.
Now, Patrick, imagine you're a recruiter, right?
Which would you rather do? Post a role online and it gets
400 applicants? Or don't post a role but reach
out in the back inside to 20 people on LinkedIn who are
probably the exact people that you're looking for and it will
be you know, that take less time now which would you rather pick?
Yeah. Yes, the less.
Time. Yeah, right.
And I think that's the thing. There's so many roles that
aren't advertised. So what I do, especially when
coaching people using my recruitment background, is still
have chats, still call, people, still reach out because don't
let what you see maybe put you off or think, oh if this is your
dream company or a place you're really interested in working,
still have conversations with people even if they're no
advertiser. Also there do.
Do things like open vacancies, if they have that, let's say, on
a job or so, does that work as well?
Because I see that. I see then lots of positions
that I don't really find myself in.
And then there's this one open one that's like, send us through
your resume and we'll see if there's a fit.
Do people actually look at that? Yeah, those roles get a lot of
applications. You.
Can imagine, yeah. But I think sometimes it can
yield mixed results. So I think it's a very good
advertising tool from a company's perspective, right.
When you post open role, people will be like, oh, what is this
company? What is this doing.
So there's a little bit of a motivation from a company
perspective to get sort of their name out there and at least have
people start to look into what they do and get engaged.
Secondly, if a company is posting an open role like that,
I think it's first of all good to know how what the process is.
So some open roles will be like I will have someone get back to
you within the next week or two to let you know if there's no
vacancy or you'll be stored in our database for upcoming
hiring. But maybe, if there's no
indication of what the next steps can look like on the open
role, I wouldn't spend too much time crafting an application for
it. But I definitely don't think
that, you know, you shouldn't apply or something, but those
tend to yield lower response rates than maybe specific job
openings. Yeah, and you mentioned actually
crafting an application. Is that also then the process?
Because I haven't applied in a while.
I used to apply in the last time I applied where like a few years
ago. But I would probably have like a
kind of a template and I would change a few things, but I
wouldn't actually craft a thing. I wouldn't use that terminology.
Is nowadays applying. Is that like a craft, you'd say?
Yeah, I think you got to stand out.
You know, it also depends on your job.
Like let's say you are a back end software engineer applying
for a back end software engineer.
You don't have to craft it too much, right?
Yeah, it's clear it's a good one.
We're looking for someone who knows Python.
So, but if maybe you want to get a little bit out of your field
or to an industry you haven't worked with or showcase one part
of your experience, I think creating a tailored CV or
resume, interchangeable words, it's quite a good idea so that
it can show your experience more.
So for example, I have one candidate who is a operations
manager and operations means a lot, right, in terms of what you
can do. It's one of those things like
analyst or consultant, it's. Like anything?
Anything, right. So this client basically had
done so many things, but they wanted to get into data
analytics, right? So I said, OK, great, Why don't
you create a tailored resume that shows more about the
analytics part, about your job. So maybe what you did in terms
of process optimization won't be as important as showing that.
I know how to do Python And R or SQL when looking at data sets,
talk more about those projects. So I think for people who are
especially generalists, who have done pretty wide roles tailoring
it, it's always super important to to the job to just highlight
your skill set. Very interesting because that's
that's basically me. I always said on this podcast
and even off that I'm now software engineer and actually
since recently I got a new because we're at a consultancy,
a new assignment as a product manager.
So that's one of the tracks is more for the thank you, it's
most of the product side. Then I do a lot with this
podcast and I've seen this kind of newish title, Developer
Advocate, Developer Relations, which is like a second track.
And then I'm also a team lead, So I have a group of consultants
which I I work with when it comes to personal development
and happiness. And that really fulfils me and
that's more the kind of engineering management track.
And I still don't know which one of these I want to progress in.
But if I'm hearing what you're saying is that if I were to
apply, I would kind of have to tailor, make my resume based on
the experience that I've had to show that I can handle that new
role and that will be 3 resumes essentially.
I do not look forward to that. I would have to make a decision.
Or you can sort of make a a master resume, so to speak, if
it's a job that you're applying for.
Let's say we're looking for an engineering manager role who has
experience on the product side who thinks beyond just being
technically hands on. Then you can highlight all three
to show like look. And I think it's good because
sometimes we also think we need to box ourselves in to be this
one thing, right? While you can still tailor your
resume while highlighting aspects that form who you are.
You know you don't want to talk, not talk about the podcast,
'cause it's something you enjoy as well.
So I think it's cool if you are able to sort of weave that in,
but maybe that wouldn't be the thing you put at the top of your
CV. Maybe you're like, OK, I want to
show that I know how to road map and vision, 'cause I want to be
in more product focused, but I also still want to have this
part of my personality come through as well.
Very interesting, yeah. I've had this conversation many
times with my partner as well, and she says that the format of
the resume actually makes a big difference.
Whereas I showed her like my initial ones which I applied on,
had my picture on it, and she just laughed at me.
She's like pictures not supposed to be on there and I'm like, I
don't know if I know what's supposed to be on there and
what's what's not supposed to be on there.
Does the format really matter that much?
Your experience. Is your partner a creative any
time? No, no, no, she no.
She works at Palo Alto Networks now as a project manager and it
took her a long time to get that role and now she's applying and
she got a new role and then she used that as a counter offer at
the current job. So she's doing really well.
Smart I must say. He chose well, yeah, right.
Yeah. But when it comes to the CV,
then do you think actually the format matters?
I think format matters and format often differs from like
place to place, right. So in somewhere like the
Netherlands and quite a few of the Western European countries,
you can get away with a picture on a on a CV.
In fact it's it's quite common actually.
And oftentimes sometimes a CV that doesn't have a picture on
people, cross reference it with your LinkedIn to see what you
look like anyway. Yeah, right.
So I think that that can be quite common.
But in North America, like US, Canada, having a picture is a no
no. It is a huge no.
And there are many studies that sort of like tie into the
reasons why which I'm very fascinated by that How can
structure differ from region to region, especially if a job is
more that's going to be the the same just in a different country
or location. And there are many reasons that
tie into that for historical reasons maybe fear of
discrimination, other sort of things when it comes to how open
people feel with putting their information on there.
But yeah, I generally recommend, you know, having a more sort of
clean, neater structure for most roles.
But it depends. For example, one of my clients
is a graphic designer and really wanted to make a very designed
CV to show with colors and everything.
And that worked compared to, you know, if you're applying for an
accountant or a dentist role where it's like, OK, Gray, black
and white, let's keep it sort of.
Simple, yeah? Don't need to show off your
design skills as a as a dentist necessarily.
So it it does differ role to role I think.
And then for let's say international companies like
Disney and Uber, does it then also depend region by region
what is most likely to get through I would say, or most
likely to get read or even be put on a on a manager's table,
let's say. Because those companies are
international, they hire in different regions and as you
said, they have the same job but just available in different
regions. Does the recruitment process is
that standardized? Yeah, I think the well, I think
recruitment is sometimes very subjective because a lot of
people think, you know the machines have completely taken
over and humans don't read CVS. But unfortunately it still is
quite a a flawed process in the sense that is very likely going
to be a person on the other end reading your your CV.
So in that sense, I think whatever role you're applying to
and whatever country they are still core things you definitely
want to include on your CV basics like name, contact
details. But you know, sometimes people
include stuff that doesn't need to be on there, like their
marital status, their religion, their full postal address or
something. I'm like a little bit of a data
sensitivity issue. I could easily hack you.
So, you know, I think by having that basic information and then
clear bullet points of your work experience, what you've done
with results and keeping it as as possible, I think no matter
how long you've worked one or two pages Max, even if you have
30 years of experience, yeah, you know, shortening your
experience in some cases like, OK, maybe what I did in 2002 is
less relevant than what I did in 2022, so making that section
shorter. So I think by being really
intentional about sort of how you structure it, that's going
to be great. But a lot of the time people
just don't know this. And that's why I have a job as a
career absolutely to, to guide people in, in making a really
good structured CV. And I think a good structure, if
you can read it in 10 seconds, you know you've done a good job,
right? Because have you ever hired
before like red CVS? I have.
Yeah, it's been a really long time though, but I have.
And I I would just think it's interesting because I would get
these different formats and maybe I'm speaking like I have
done this many times. I didn't do it many times
actually. It was like very early in on in
my career even. And I like being part of the
interviews. But from a resume, I would just
be like, yeah, I don't know, I don't have a frame of reference
to see if this is good or not. And it would be a gap and that
would, I would love to talk about, OK, why is there a gap
there? And people will talk about their
travels and more so personal things.
I was always looking for that rather than let's say technical
expertise and more so looking. Can I work with this person in
my team? Do I like them also even are
they like me or are they different than me?
And that evolved cuz it used to be are they like me and how?
It's also OK how do they fill in the gaps, the things that I'm
not good at. So yeah, those are the things I
look for. And I'm sure when you started
reviewing CVS, maybe you spend quite a bit of time looking at
each one like 5 minutes trying to look at it, understand it.
And then I'm sure you're like, OK, I've got 100 more to go,
maybe that time got shorter and shorter or something like that.
So especially as recruiters who, you know, this is what we do all
day, 10 seconds, that initial glance.
And from there we can make a decision whether we want to move
you to the next round or not. And I like that you also brought
up gaps because this is a question I get quite often,
because gaps can happen for so, so many reasons, right?
And to me, gaps aren't really too much of a big deal and I
think a lot of people don't care too much about them.
But in an interview, it's about how you sort of tell the story,
right? So what?
What's quite common is you find people who maybe move to the
Netherlands from other countries after graduating.
It took maybe a couple months to even a year, if not sometimes
longer to to find a new role, right?
So I think even as the person reading the resume, it's always
good to have compassion and curiosity when it comes to maybe
gaps being in people's CVS. So that's something I would
would ask about in terms of being like, oh, cool, I see
that, you know, you took a few years off.
I'm wondering what you're doing in that time.
And I really love it when people show like, oh, I was upskilling
myself. I wanted to travel.
I had a family, I had this. And but you know, but I'm ready
to come back and I'm excited about what your company is
doing. So when they reframe it with a
lot of confidence as opposed to, yeah, you know, I don't know.
I. Don't.
Know my luck, etcetera. So I think that storytelling
aspect is really important in interviews to really sound
positive and you're in control of that.
You know, I think people sometimes fear being asked
questions like what if someone brings up the gap, What do I
say? But I remind my clients that you
know, you're in control of this. You're also deciding if this
company is right for you. So would you want to work at a
place where someone you know takes it quite adversely that
you took a couple months off to travel or figure out yourself or
take care of your mental health? Maybe that's not the right
environment for you as well. So it really goes both ways.
Yeah, I think that's a great perspective that it is both
ways, right. And if the company, I also told
this to my brother, so it's kind of fresh.
I said if the company doesn't take the time and effort to also
welcome you and to make you feel at home, make it so like you
want to work there, then that might not be the company for
you. And sure, there's a lot of
circumstances, a lot of people, a lot of things in the process
that might go wrong about the fact that they go wrong or they
won't go wrong more often. Like those signals you have to
pick up and then you can still continue, but at least pick up
those signals and see if you still want to want to go ahead
with it. Basically because it's time
investment from both sides at the end of the day, which I
think people forget as well. Yeah, I did a poll on my
LinkedIn, and I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this
because I asked a question. It was fresh on my head, on my
mind, based on an episode. It was with regards to landing a
job. Could be your first one, could
be many. Which of these factors do you
think is most important? And I laid out network, I laid
out portfolio and I laid out something else and I don't know
what that was. OK.
Let me guess, you've got network, you've got portfolio
was resume or branding. One, I think it, I think it
would have been one of those two like a combination of those two
in any case networking got the most votes which is what I
expected and portfolio actually got a big vote as well and I
that surprised me too because I feel like if you don't have a
network people might not even see your portfolio.
Like a portfolio is a bit further down the line when you
already have your foot in the door and that's like a kind of
seal the deal moment. I would say like a cherry on
top, but you still have to. Therefore I was very biased with
network. Figure out how to get the foot
in the door as well. What what do you think is like
one of the most important factors when it comes to landing
a job? Yeah, I would agree with your
your audience. I think network is is super
important. Network is about who you know,
but it's also about making new connections as well.
So sometimes you can feel like I don't have a network like I I
used to do that a little bit. I think I used to victimize
myself or feel like the underdog a lot when I when I just moved
to the Netherlands. Like, I don't know anyone.
My dad doesn't own companies here or you know, and it's just
going to be difficult for me. So I think I got into a bit of a
negative headspace around that. But then when I changed my
thinking to be like, wait, you can build a network, right?
So let me start with the people I know.
My classmates are all really smart, motivated people.
I wonder who they know. Oh, let me talk to my neighbour,
my friends, people from within my circle or just randomly reach
out to people. So I think from that sense, it's
really good to build a network. And I got very organized with
building my network. I used to track all my new
LinkedIn connections, right? So it would be like, OK,
Patrick, he's a software engineer, works at this company
doing that. Oh OK.
I see at this company might be someone else I'd be interested
to know. I wonder if Patrick could
introduce me to that person. So I also got really good with
making messaging templates. So I used to have all my
templates that are sent to people just so it doesn't sound
like you know, you have to do the work.
Like, hey, Patrick, can you introduce me to Homeboy and the
other? Team I hate that, Yeah.
No effort done. And just like you mentioned that
you'd like it when recruiters send really nice personalized
messages to you. Yeah, that gets your attention.
And even for me, like, you're like, you did my research and me
like, Hecky, I see you worked it.
Reddit and Disney and Float Traders, I'm like, OK, he did
his work. He did his work.
So you know, people like to hear great things about themselves
and like to know you put in the work.
So building your network is also going to be really important
when you show that. I've invested time into looking
up who you are and what you do and I want to connect with you
for a very specific reason, you know, and if it is for the
reason of having a job. And I'm going to be putting out
a LinkedIn post about this. Make it very clear what sort of
job you want and that they check the career page to see if
there's anything open. You know, I think it's can be a
bit frustrating when you're working at a company and some
just like, here's my CV, let me know if there any openings
available. You've gotten messages like
this, right? Exactly.
But when someone shows they've done the work and that's what
makes you think, okay, this is someone I think I'd like to
introduce to someone or get them in the interview process or have
a chat with so you can build up that network.
But I think although networking is very important, it's also
good to give people a chance who might not be able to get into
the company. So at one of my previous
companies, one of the things I implemented was a no referral
policy, right? And I think within recruitment,
most people like the ideas of referrals, right?
Like if you have a referral, you get a referral bonus.
And referrals are usually more qualified because they know
people. But what I noticed happening was
that people were referring people who had just like them,
right? So maybe they studied at the
same universities, were in the same class, worked the same
companies. So before you know it, you've
got a team that's all X Google or X matter or all went to this
one university, Einhoven Dell or like, you know, Bucharest
University or something. And I noticed our teams becoming
very, very homogeneous, right. So for a while, and it's not to
say it's a forever policy, but for a while I introduced the no
referrals policy and this enabled us to get fresh talent
combined with me sourcing actively head hunting on
LinkedIn for people who are very diverse in terms of you know,
their backgrounds, education maybe way of thinking that we
wouldn't have otherwise have hired.
So as much as I think networking is important, it's also
companies that they take those steps to ensure that people who
might not have a network there can also get a chance to get in.
Yeah, yeah, I love that you highlight that if you put in the
work, you have a higher likelihood of getting noticed,
of getting basically seen right. Because if you're like everyone
else, if you send the most easiest message and you
basically shoot with buckshot and spread everywhere with your
CV and that's not the best strategy.
Probably time is however, yeah, what people might not want to
put in, like I I talked to my brother in this process was for
a long time. He landed a job.
Now I'm really happy for him, but it it did take him down.
He was like, send out my resume to 100 companies.
And even on Reddit I see people say it's been a year and I have
the spreadsheet and it's 500 companies and I've only had a
handful of conversations And then I'm like, well, something
must be wrong, right? Because if if the number is that
high, then something you're doing is just not working.
And most likely this is my assumption is they cannot put
all the effort into those 500 companies, otherwise that would
be like a full time job and probably they do not want or
they don't see that the effort would make a difference.
But I'm glad to hear that you're saying the effort can make a
difference. So at least that's the least you
can do. Basically is put in the effort
if you really want it. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, you know, getting a job for a lot of people isn't
easy. I mean, sometimes it can be
easier, like I said, depending on who you know and everything.
But sometimes I think we think that this should be easy, right?
I should be able to just, like, get a job like this and in terms
of a short amount of time. But, you know, that's funny.
I was having a chat with my dad and he was saying, oh, getting a
job today is so much easier than it was for me in like the 80s or
something, right? And I'm like does every
generation just think it was not easy it?
Gets easier and easier. Exactly.
And then I have an older cousin who, you know, finished high
school around the time of the 2006 recession.
And he was saying that it was really tough back then between,
you know, 2006 to 2008 to get a job a lot of people want.
And he was like, it's so much better today.
And I think it's so subjective in terms of when it's easy, when
it's difficult for as generally as a society as that does differ
so much from place to place and in terms of what's happening in
the economy as well. But I think that, you know,
putting in that effort does matter.
But you also being smart with that effort, like let's say the
person you mentioned who puts in 500 applications, right?
That's very much taking a quantity approach, which can
sometimes yield rewards, like maybe out of 500 applications if
only 10% of companies reply, get 50 interviews or something like
that. But I think it's more important
to have a quality approach than a quantity approach.
So a quality approach can be this.
OK, here's my list of 10 companies I'm really interested
in working for. And let's say, for example,
booking.com is one of them, right?
If I'm really interested in booking, I would map out their
teams to be like, OK, what kind of teams are here?
Here are all the product teams at booking.
Out of the product teams, let me draw up a couple of names of
people. OK.
Here are 15 people who are doing the exact job I want.
Let me think about how I can reach out to those 15 people in
addition to applying for the role.
You know, and I think that is the approach.
I also help with my clients in terms of mapping out the market
and it yields higher result while also putting in maybe less
effort in the sense that we're not taking a quantity approach.
I love that a lot because you're basically leveraging the
information that is out there specifically on LinkedIn to
figure out people that are like you or not like you, that people
that have the job that you might want.
If you see an open position, then definitely those people are
going to be your colleagues or your peers and you're going to
mirror off of them and learn from them and they're going to
learn from you as well. So reaching out to them and
basically becoming friends with them, I guess is a really good
strategy. I've never thought of that.
Is that what people do nowadays? Like to distinguish themselves
already? I think people are a little bit
afraid. That's what, That's what I would
feel like, Yeah. I would feel hesitant to do that
because with the perspective of the one I have where people
reach out and say can you just refer me to so and so or do you
have any open positions and I'm like well if you have a we have
a job board, you could have started there basically I don't
want to come across like that. So then that already is a hurdle
in my head for approaching anyone.
Basically I would never approach someone be like I don't even
know what I would say even. Yeah, yeah, No, for sure.
And I think that can come to a lot of confidence.
It can be a confidence issue. You know, here's someone, maybe
they are the VP of Engineering at this big company, and I'm
interested in being part of their team.
What do I even say to them? How do I even talk to them?
And I think that stops people from even reaching out.
Yeah. Or you think maybe they're
getting so many messages already, what are the chances
they're going to see mine? So first of all, people aren't
getting as many messages as you think, right?
Because that exact, that exact reason.
People are kind of a little bit hesitant too.
So I think it's important to just have confidence in yourself
and faith that I'm gonna reach out.
And if they don't reply, guess what?
I'm gonna follow up. There's a lot of stats that say
even as recruiters, if I would reach out to you, let's say
you're someone I'm trying to hire, the first reach out
message gets on average a 33% response rate.
Okay, right. So most people don't respond to
the first message. The second message gets a 40%
response rate. So follow up like hey Patrick,
just checking if you got my message last week.
As I mentioned working on this product, I think your background
would be very interesting. Let me know if you're free for a
15 minute chat or something. The third message gets a 60%
response rate. The third follow up, because
most people are busy, maybe they don't even check LinkedIn that
much. So instead of taking it
personally that this person hasn't replied, why didn't you
reply to my message? As opposed to being like OK let
me send one last follow up like hey, keep the tone light
friendly, Checking in one last time.
Maybe missed my last two messages about this and this.
Let me know if you're interested and you know and you kind of
leave it. And as recruiters they would
recommend the follow up cadence for us being like every three to
seven days, so maybe over the course of three weeks sending 3
messages. So following up is also really
good when you're on the other side as a job seeker in terms of
reaching out to people. And I would follow up a lot with
people, you know, respectfully and sort of space out my
messages to see if they would respond.
And I noticed usually by the 3rd message that's when people would
would reply. So I often got this question
like, oh Kiki, how did you get into these companies?
I'm like I messaged people and followed up.
I love that. Yeah.
Yeah, that's really funny. You you message, you mentioned
like the confidence to actually step up and message someone and
I was thinking, I I've never done that.
The funny thing is I do that with the podcast.
I don't follow up. Maybe I maybe I should.
I do search for people very specifically and then I see if
there's any content of them online speaking because they
cannot hold a decent conversation on a podcast, still
a podcast. So the audio thing is a thing,
basically. But then I send my message and
that actually has a really high return, like like I don't know
the percentages, but I never follow up.
That's very interesting. I'm going to try that for sure.
The thing is I also get messages and this is mainly by e-mail
people that find the the e-mail address that's on YouTube and
most of the people are editors and they want to edit the
podcast and this is how their message starts.
A big fan of the show a compliment and then it says but
you're not leveraging shorts and so and so or your thumbnails
basically suck or the titles could be better and like this
whole build up and then you just destroy what we're doing and
then that's it. And then I see those people
follow up. And I did wonder, who does that
work? Maybe it's the way they follow
up. Sometimes it's like passive
aggressive. This is my last message.
It's not really fun and lighthearted anymore, but in any
case, it made me wonder. So I'm really happy that you
confirmed that follow-ups matter.
And they work, but they work if you do it the right way.
Yeah, they do it the right way. But I think what's interesting
is about that first message you get, right So and someone says
great podcast but da da. Da, da, Yeah, could be better.
Discredits everything. How does that make you feel in
that moment? Like, do you think, yeah, this
is someone I really want to work with, they truly understand this
podcast and what I'm trying to achieve?
Or do you feel like they're trying to neg you in a way to be
like, let me highlight the negative and maybe they'll be
interested. Yeah, it's it's interesting like
I think it's the last part where they highlight something but
they they still they haven't asked.
Basically there was one person and I I might show it to you.
After the show, they sent a message and they said, oh, I've
been listening to your show at work basically.
And then don't worry, my boss doesn't mind.
And then I told my boss and all of a sudden he wants to be
guest. And then I'm like, is this real
or is this just a fairy tale basically because first of all,
the person is remote and I've said many times, I only do in
person episodes from I mean from like the last 50-60, maybe 70
episodes. So that's the thing.
So if you really were listening, I might have noticed that the
people are actually in the same room.
So then, I don't know if it's real or not, but I'm such a
believer. I want to believe it's real.
Yeah, that's what gets me. Right.
And I think that's interesting because that touches upon
psychology. Like your podcast means a lot to
you. You've put a lot of work and
effort. So I think if someone were ever
to work with you in terms of making the podcast better, you
want to feel like they really understand it, right?
And they've really done the research, just as you do
research into the people who you invite on the show.
So I think even with, let's say, on the job sense, reaching out
to people on LinkedIn, when you show that you understand their
background and then as well as the company challenges, I think
that's going to be really, really important.
So let's say, for example, you want to work at booking.com,
right? And you see someone who's
working in the search optimization team and they're
trying to build out a new product, you know, maybe, you
know, compete with Airbnb in that sort of sense.
When you show you've done your research into the product,
they're looking into the ways they're trying to have a
competitive advantage, that person's background that will
get their attention much more than, yeah, that new products
you're building is great, but these and these things are
missing. That's what you're missing,
yeah? It's kind of like, oh, because
we're a bit attached to our work, right?
It's a bit sensitive. So you can still show the value
add without having to like sort of put what they've done down.
Yeah, you have an incredible way of highlighting that.
Most of the answers I have actually right in front of me, I
just have to flip it around and put myself in the shoes of the
people that reach out to the people that have something and
don't have an ask, but show what you have to offer in that way.
I love how you highlight that. I honestly think you should do
podcast or start doing more stuff like this because this has
been a real joy. Or.
Maybe I'll take over this one when you're not looking.
You'll be my Co host. There'll be a lot of fun.
Thank you so much for coming on khaki.
This was a real blast. Most.
Welcome. Thanks for having me.
Cool, then we're going to round it off here.
I'll put all khaki socials in the description below, check her
out, let her know you came from our show.
And with that being said, thank you for listening.
We'll see you on the next one.