1 00:00:01,100 --> 00:00:04,000 Hey guys, and welcome to the show for today's guest. 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,700 I have whose pater he is the first certified calling trainer 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,600 in the Netherlands, and was one of the first certified Scala 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,300 trainers here as well. On top of that, he is a seasoned 5 00:00:13,300 --> 00:00:15,700 engineer, who has enormous experience in building and 6 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:18,700 growing engineering, cultures and loves the knowledge sharing 7 00:00:18,700 --> 00:00:21,300 aspect of the job as well. I had a lot of fun talking to 8 00:00:21,300 --> 00:00:22,900 him and I think you'll like it too. 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,900 Welcome to Beyond coding, a dive into the world of successful 10 00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:32,900 people in. IIT from your sponsors Z Bia, 11 00:00:32,900 --> 00:00:36,900 creating digital leaders, here's your host, Patrick akhil. 12 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:42,100 So it was first of all. Welcome. 13 00:00:42,900 --> 00:00:46,400 Nice to have you here as our first guest, and let's get right 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:47,100 into it. I guess. 15 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:50,600 So, I do have a bit into your background and I saw that 16 00:00:50,900 --> 00:00:53,300 besides software engineering, which is what you're doing right 17 00:00:53,300 --> 00:00:55,800 now. You've also done scrum 18 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,800 mastership, and you've also done more architectural stuff. 19 00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:03,900 So how did that come to be? For example, why did you move 20 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:06,900 away from more of the developer side and start doing stuff 21 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:09,800 outside of just Main? That meant more into the the 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,500 people management or people skills kind of thing. 23 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:15,800 Okay, cool. It did a nice question. 24 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:17,900 Also, thank you for having me here. 25 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,200 Personally, I have quite a versatile background, so I want 26 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,900 you to I'm from Switzerland where I study economics, I 27 00:01:23,908 --> 00:01:27,300 didn't really study it's--or, learned it all on the jobs and 28 00:01:27,300 --> 00:01:32,100 that's themself main self-made. Men in that regard. 29 00:01:34,500 --> 00:01:39,100 Which kind of makes it evident that I'm not really only doing 30 00:01:39,100 --> 00:01:42,200 this particular thing. Also in terms of personality I 31 00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:45,700 do not only software development also like for instance to draw 32 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,700 just also be the there's a bit of artistic line in the in my 33 00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:55,400 personality and what I actually like most of all is interaction 34 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,800 with humans or at least what we can achieve when we have 35 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,000 effective interactions with humans and Technology. 36 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,000 Of course, is a nice means to create great stuff, but in that 37 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,000 sense I'm not really a main focus on technology. 38 00:02:08,100 --> 00:02:09,699 Even though I really love it. Yeah. 39 00:02:09,699 --> 00:02:12,100 But it's more actually. All the all the different 40 00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:13,900 aspects around it. Cool. 41 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,900 That's very cool. I mean I'm kind of the same I 42 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:17,800 guess. I love the the interaction that 43 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,700 you get as a developer as well but then how is the working from 44 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:24,400 home been for you so far? I mean you're out of the the 45 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,500 office probably a lot less colleague interaction than than 46 00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:31,400 two years ago for you. That's an interesting one. 47 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,900 My experience is that I got even more effective interactions than 48 00:02:35,900 --> 00:02:37,100 before. That's a nice. 49 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:39,100 That's a yeah. I also something I would never 50 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:45,900 expected by having the screen. I realized that you can listen 51 00:02:45,900 --> 00:02:49,000 way more carefully to the other person, then when you are 52 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,400 distracted in office, very lot of noise around you. 53 00:02:51,408 --> 00:02:54,500 So once you really have talked to you one another then you 54 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,500 mainly Focus only on The Voice and by doing so you yeah you 55 00:02:58,500 --> 00:02:59,500 really listen to the information. 56 00:02:59,500 --> 00:03:02,800 Someone is bringing over a nice, that's 41. 57 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,900 And what we also did is we made sure that we still have some 58 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:09,500 natural collaboration. Instead, we just opened our 59 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:13,200 teams and then from 10:00 on everybody else, just teams open, 60 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,600 maybe microphone muted or not and whenever questions you can 61 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,200 ask you to the team. Yeah. 62 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:21,800 And also then probably people are first of all, more in their 63 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,600 own bubble, probably. Also bit more effective in what 64 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,100 they do, but I still can have quite easily interaction by just 65 00:03:29,300 --> 00:03:32,000 calling to the to the screen. And then someone will answer and 66 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,800 this combination resulted in a very first of all effective 67 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,200 interaction, but also, In trouble because you still have 68 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,500 your private time to focus on things you want to can just mute 69 00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:44,900 because he normal often can really muted when people want 70 00:03:44,900 --> 00:03:46,200 something. If you then then you have to 71 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,600 answer whereas you still can address people quite quickly. 72 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:50,400 Yeah. Nice. 73 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,900 I mean at my job we don't do the open Channel perspective, we 74 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:57,600 have before stand up. You can actually walk in and 75 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,500 it's like grabbing a coffee so people can join up and they can 76 00:04:00,500 --> 00:04:03,600 talk about whatever and then when the real stuff begins, we 77 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,600 talked about that mainly okay. But yeah I mean I love the 78 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,400 one-on-one Fractions that you can have now. 79 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,900 But one of the downsides is that I mean, I can't just walk up to 80 00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:15,700 someone and be like, hey you want to you want to pair up on 81 00:04:15,700 --> 00:04:19,399 this problem that we're having. It's a bit of a bigger step. 82 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:23,100 I've noticed then doing it when you're actually physically next 83 00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:25,300 to each other. I guess that's correct. 84 00:04:25,300 --> 00:04:26,600 Yeah. As long as seen the team, it's 85 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,600 quite easy because you are quite cozy. 86 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,900 Fall very, very Cannon where you know, each other and where these 87 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,700 lines that interpersonal lines are quite frequently. 88 00:04:37,700 --> 00:04:40,800 A you used stepping towards other people is then a biggest 89 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,300 wrestle, that's correct. Yeah, and I love what you said 90 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:46,400 about like still having the focus element because I've 91 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,200 noticed that as well. I feel like I'm more effective 92 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,300 now, working from home at some aspects of my job, then others, 93 00:04:53,300 --> 00:04:55,900 when I was at the office. Yeah, which is pretty cool. 94 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,400 Was the open Channel? A thing that you instantly were 95 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:02,500 like? All right, let's do this. 96 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:05,300 Or did you try out other things? As well to see what will work 97 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:08,900 and what would not work. And in terms For knowledge. 98 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:13,900 I always think it's very important to kind of unleash the 99 00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:18,100 power of the team itself so also what the team think is effective 100 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:21,100 and also try things out play with it. 101 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:24,600 What we realized specially Beginnings is when you just 102 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,300 won't hold a behind your own screen and only if interacts if 103 00:05:27,300 --> 00:05:30,100 you want to. Yeah which have also threat old 104 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,500 to really do the interaction. We realize that this is not 105 00:05:33,500 --> 00:05:35,400 effective. So we quite quickly said, okay 106 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,900 let's try this out. And from right to start, it was 107 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:44,000 very it was a very good solution to still get better in touch and 108 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,400 get. Also the feel that you do things 109 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,900 together and just instead of just be on your own early, with 110 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:52,600 your, a levels of side of the job is definitely. 111 00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:56,100 I mean, one of the beneficial size of the job as well. 112 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:57,800 Yeah. What I've noticed in in kind of 113 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,700 a development culture, is that? I mean it's competitive but it's 114 00:06:01,700 --> 00:06:04,200 competitive to a certain degree if I learn something new, 115 00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:07,800 usually people love to share things, they'd love to share 116 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,800 with I've learned in the love the show, what they've learned 117 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,400 as well or do it together. I mean we exceed be a we have 118 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:19,600 knowledge exchange events, stuff like that which we definitely 119 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,000 love. I mean do you have that on the 120 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,000 job as well? Kind of a structured way of of 121 00:06:24,100 --> 00:06:27,100 we called them Tech meetings kind of or Tech Tuesday. 122 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,200 We would you sit apart with the team and go through a bunch of 123 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,100 stuff that either we did or what we found out. 124 00:06:33,100 --> 00:06:36,500 And just talked about that. It's kind of a tech demo, but 125 00:06:36,500 --> 00:06:37,800 more of a technical side. Yeah. 126 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,800 Yeah, I don't know if you do something similar at your job as 127 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,900 well. Add a quite internet, 128 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:46,200 interesting aspect of the Sam. And I have right now is that we 129 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,800 had to create a whole development team, right from the 130 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,700 start, so kind of Greenfield team building. 131 00:06:52,700 --> 00:06:58,400 In that sense, one of the key goals. 132 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,500 We also had this that we needed to implement some engineering 133 00:07:01,500 --> 00:07:04,400 culture. Yeah, I'm part of a new culture, 134 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,300 of course, is that you share knowledge? 135 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,000 Sure. So, Sharing knowledge has a very 136 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:16,500 important aspect of what we are doing and what we also Foster to 137 00:07:16,500 --> 00:07:20,300 a very large extent. So for instance what we do we 138 00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:24,300 are regularly some knowledge exchange about certain topics so 139 00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:27,400 for instance if someone has worked on a particular piece or 140 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,400 a few people which is important for the group to know then we 141 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,600 organize some knowledge exchange / Sprint of rinsing three or 142 00:07:34,608 --> 00:07:38,700 four hours nice and then someone also gets time Prepare that 143 00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:41,700 maybe do some small assignments, that you will get a hands-on 144 00:07:41,700 --> 00:07:44,100 experience. Yeah, that's a one-way thing, we 145 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:47,500 do. What we also do is, when the 146 00:07:47,508 --> 00:07:52,300 story's finished, we have some sort of knowledge exchange task. 147 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,700 So, for the particular story, you tell the team quite quite 148 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,900 briefly, briefly in condensed, in about 10 minutes, what you've 149 00:08:01,900 --> 00:08:04,600 done now, instead, you get an idea of where things have 150 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,800 changed, what we have done. Yeah, so these are more dead. 151 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,400 Outer aspects of sharing knowledge. 152 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,100 What I purchased think is even more important is the knowledge 153 00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:16,500 culture. Yeah and you used, you just said 154 00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:19,800 there is some sort of competitive aspect in our work. 155 00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:25,400 I personally think that the less you let this competitive part 156 00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:29,500 Prevail, the better it is for your team, so I agree actually. 157 00:08:29,500 --> 00:08:35,000 Yeah and I consciously the team's I'm in and older I get in 158 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,600 that sense. The more consciously I try to 159 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,700 fall stir some sort of collaboration collaborative 160 00:08:40,700 --> 00:08:44,800 sphere, where people really feel at ease and dare to ask. 161 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,200 I think it's more like the the asking part to dare to say, I 162 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:54,100 don't know yet and without them being being punished that, so 163 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,300 you don't know that. Maybe you're a senior, we are 164 00:08:56,300 --> 00:08:58,800 supposed that, you know, that especially when you get more 165 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,300 senior, this, this fella fallacy comes more dangerous than you 166 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:05,000 think, okay, my machine. So, I have know everything. 167 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,200 Now that's really a totally wrong attitude. 168 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,600 You have to Especially also, then you have to ask. 169 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,200 Yeah and and and stay open for feedback. 170 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,900 And once you have such a culture industry, take some time to 171 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:18,000 make. This culture is also one of the 172 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,200 key characteristics that you really have to treat it with 173 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,100 great respect. So if someone says, I don't 174 00:09:23,100 --> 00:09:27,100 know, never ever dared to say something negative about it. 175 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,200 I thought you, you really knew that or you, you're so long 176 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,500 doing this stuff. Why don't just do? 177 00:09:33,500 --> 00:09:36,700 Maybe something feel the urge but just don't really treat you 178 00:09:36,708 --> 00:09:39,500 out with the best respect. You have and then you start 179 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:41,800 really see that that people open up. 180 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,900 They get they get more trust. They feel at ease also saying 181 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:48,000 how are things going? How does something work? 182 00:09:48,300 --> 00:09:52,200 And once you have this culture then the things I just mentioned 183 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,700 with these knowledge sharing ones, a story or in a Sprint or 184 00:09:56,700 --> 00:09:58,600 whatever you'll have and Innovation Days by the way 185 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:00,900 because things sometimes you need to be experiment with new 186 00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:04,300 stuff. Not with related stuff to do for 187 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:06,400 your business. Then all the things you'll 188 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,200 actually merge automatically. I love that. 189 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,000 I mean there's humbleness and there's Beauty in that and 190 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,900 there's openness. But how do you create such a 191 00:10:14,908 --> 00:10:18,800 culture or? I mean you've probably worked to 192 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:20,700 create such a culture at your current job. 193 00:10:20,900 --> 00:10:22,900 How do you do that? How do you start and how do you 194 00:10:22,900 --> 00:10:25,500 Foster that? Yeah and it's a very interesting 195 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:28,300 one and it's definitely not something you just can do as 196 00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:30,800 individual. I found that you have quite an 197 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,900 impact if you do it. But the I think the primary 198 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,000 aspect you have to take very seriously. 199 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:41,200 That you do not do this as a front liner so you have this 200 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,600 really in the background. So by by steering certain 201 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,100 situations, not that that they see you or perceive you as to 202 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:53,700 one who makes here. The easier, the safe atmosphere, 203 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:55,400 where knowledge can expand should something you do in the 204 00:10:55,408 --> 00:10:58,900 background and people don't they shoot a notice it? 205 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,100 Yeah. And this takes quite a bit of of 206 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:06,800 soft skills to do that. So that's 41, and what then is 207 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,300 very important, is that You actually never judge. 208 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,100 You don't judge. Of course, there are good ideas 209 00:11:13,100 --> 00:11:17,000 and bad ideas, but instead of judging them as good as bad, you 210 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,500 just keep on asking. Okay, why do you think is a bad 211 00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:21,700 idea? And then people come up with 212 00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:25,000 different ideas and instead of directly again, judging say this 213 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,800 is this, we're going to do, is you're not going to do say, okay 214 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:31,300 now we have two options so then you you you always address it as 215 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:35,100 facts as long as you can. And what I've realized that most 216 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:40,500 of the time, the better solution just get It Out by itself or 217 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,800 yeah reveals itself. Because you put all these facts 218 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,500 together so that the whole team actually has hey, okay. 219 00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:50,100 I think this rule is better and what's also nice about it is 220 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:53,200 when you don't judge because so often, someone says something, 221 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,200 and you're going to charge that, yeah, then it has some personal 222 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,200 element, I said something wrong. This is kind of the message. 223 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,900 This person will have. When you address your more like 224 00:12:01,900 --> 00:12:04,800 that to you graduate, you gather all the input of the different 225 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,100 people. All the different team members? 226 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:12,300 Yeah, you put this fact beside beside. 227 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:14,900 You also have two different, people brought in different 228 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:17,900 facts and once the solution then becomes clear. 229 00:12:17,900 --> 00:12:19,900 It's also more solution of the whole team. 230 00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:23,400 So the commitment will then be more of a team that individual 231 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,200 that said, that these bright individual who really knows how 232 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,500 things work even. So, this individual might be 233 00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:33,400 there. The side effect that the team 234 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:37,100 gets the credit for coming up with the And it's just 235 00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:40,400 tremendous powerful when you keep repeating that, then you 236 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,600 actually create this trust that people also maybe just say 237 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,900 something, which is when you just look at it. 238 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:47,400 A bit stupid. Yeah. 239 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:48,900 But by not addressing it that way. 240 00:12:48,900 --> 00:12:51,300 Not judging it. You get a different very 241 00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:53,000 different and very effective than MX. 242 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:54,900 Yeah. I mean, you keep you keep being 243 00:12:54,900 --> 00:12:57,500 objective and just laying out the facts and people actually 244 00:12:57,500 --> 00:13:00,400 usually figure it out. If they don't, then other people 245 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,000 will, I mean, they will collaborate and together, you'll 246 00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:05,200 come to the right solution. Yeah, love that. 247 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,900 Love hearing that as Well yeah, besides development and besides 248 00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:10,800 just the day-to-day work. You you do. 249 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:14,000 I've also read that you've been a coach and you've been a 250 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,500 trainer? I mean, it's pretty apparent in 251 00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:20,400 the the way you talk and how you come across in stuff like this. 252 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,200 But how did you, how did you become? 253 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,300 Let's say, a coach or a trainer. When were you like? 254 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:27,500 Alright, I really like doing this. 255 00:13:27,500 --> 00:13:30,200 And this is what I want to proceed to do as well. 256 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:33,600 Yeah, that's a very good question and prior to just talk 257 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,100 I thought a bit about it. How did it come? 258 00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:37,700 Because sometimes things just happen without that you re 259 00:13:37,700 --> 00:13:43,500 consciously think about it. My conclusion is that what 260 00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:46,600 really drives me in this whole training thing or knowledge? 261 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:52,100 Sharing, is that able to give this part to a certain person 262 00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:57,100 that then goes on with it and eventually creates this fire 263 00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:00,700 with by whom he is possible to reforge great stuff. 264 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:02,500 Yeah. Well, what I'm actually able to 265 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:06,900 do is so can look your skin your skin compared with a seed you 266 00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:09,800 plant and then eventually the something good will come comes 267 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:10,800 out of it. Sure. 268 00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:16,000 Which in essence is extent someone else capabilities that's 269 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,900 actually what I'm able to contribute to and personally I 270 00:14:19,908 --> 00:14:22,600 think in life these are one of the most beautiful things we 271 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,100 have as humans that we can extend our Capital capabilities 272 00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:29,200 and capacities. Yeah which in that sense are 273 00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:33,200 infinite, right? We're never reached the stage. 274 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,000 Where we just know everything at least exact. 275 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,600 Not, not something I can, I can fathom and being part of that 276 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,700 is, yeah, it's a wonderful experience. 277 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,600 So also, once had a conference and I said, I previous in the 278 00:14:47,608 --> 00:14:50,600 past and still now I'm giving quite some courses and then so 279 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,400 much. Just watch me said, hey, you're 280 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,200 the one who taught me, Scarlett, there's a program language and I 281 00:14:57,208 --> 00:14:59,400 didn't really recognize the person ever. 282 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,000 Once you have quite some Justin yeah don't remember every face 283 00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:05,900 but then he was talking very Advanced off with you language 284 00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:09,100 and yeah, it's kind of field. I feel humbled that I was the 285 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:12,800 one who just gave this seed or his Park which then brought him 286 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,100 to beer in expert in this field. Awesome. 287 00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:17,600 Yeah. And and in that sense so this is 288 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,900 the drive behind it and in order to be in front of a class takes 289 00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:25,700 quite some effort. First of all, I need some 290 00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:28,200 credibility for sure. I said they won't hire you if 291 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,900 they don't even if they're not really persuaded that, you Or 292 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:34,200 the expert in the field and that's more or less. 293 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,600 The second aspect, I really love about this training sheet. 294 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,500 It forces me to really dive into certain Technologies and really 295 00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:45,200 know the ins and outs of it before other than the average 296 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:48,800 for I teach for sure. And since I really discovered 297 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,300 the pleasure of learning. Yeah. 298 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:56,800 Quite early on, this gives me some extra boost to really make 299 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,100 it my own in the sense that also can explain it to others. 300 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,300 Exactly. You need a certain level of I 301 00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:06,300 guess completeness before you are able to teach and you notice 302 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:09,100 that you you understand the subject even better when you 303 00:16:09,108 --> 00:16:10,600 teach as well. Yeah. 304 00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:13,100 Yeah. I mean that's what I've noticed 305 00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:15,800 for sure. If I try and explain some 306 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,100 details to someone I'm able to how do you say that gather my 307 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,200 thoughts better and even for the future, remember it better as 308 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:25,800 well. That's correct. 309 00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:28,000 Yeah. And in that sense it's also a 310 00:16:28,008 --> 00:16:31,600 win-win for me because yeah. First of all It's cool to learn 311 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:32,500 new stuff. Yeah. 312 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,700 Then you know the stuff which also makes you more effective. 313 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,200 Yeah. And third. 314 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,200 You also can. Yeah. 315 00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:45,100 In fact orders with it, it's something it's a current time. 316 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:46,000 Yeah. Yeah. 317 00:16:46,100 --> 00:16:47,000 Very nice. Very nice. 318 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,000 Do you still give training classes nowadays? 319 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:49,900 Yeah, sure sure. Yeah. 320 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:54,500 Just did certification to check Teresa month ago for a new 321 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,800 programming language calling cool. 322 00:16:56,900 --> 00:17:00,900 And I've done courses before that but also the The 323 00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:04,300 credibility. I think it's worthwhile to 324 00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:06,900 certify yourself. Yeah, anything. 325 00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:09,800 That's what it should start doing that as soon as possible 326 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,800 get certified. Or is it something later in your 327 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,400 knowledge? This is more assertive. 328 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,200 Turn trainer certification. It's not a certificate for 329 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,000 language. It's written. 330 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,700 I'm certified as a trainer. Yeah. 331 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,099 And that's a very good question. Should people get certified or 332 00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:24,900 not? Yeah, I think that's the one we 333 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:27,500 can talk about a little bit. Sure. 334 00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:32,100 Sure what I've realized. Lized isn't that's very bit. 335 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:37,000 Broad, maybe gets a bit fuzzy but okay, we can Define can 336 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:42,100 narrow down all the time we get and nowadays. 337 00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:47,900 We also confronted with quite some interesting research from 338 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,500 Neuroscience where they also look at Behavior aspects. 339 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:54,300 We haven't had some years ago. Yeah. 340 00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,800 Also the motivation. It's a bit neuroscience and 341 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,900 combined with psychology. They become a bit together. 342 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,700 Yeah. I've watched several Talks by 343 00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:05,600 certain professors, and one interesting thing is that 344 00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:10,500 actually the, the urge to learn is actually planted in every 345 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:12,200 human. Yeah, it's trinsic. 346 00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:15,200 Its intrinsic, exactly. So learning to walk, Yuri don't 347 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,800 have to go to walking School, exactly want to learn to walk. 348 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:21,500 They are just walk out in the park and then the third is kit 349 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,200 on this bike was maybe four years old and, and just, just 350 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,800 not really stable. But, you know, this expression 351 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,300 on the face for cool. I can handle the thing. 352 00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:35,000 And Almost you almost crashed crashed into me but it went 353 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:41,100 well, but but this kind of these urged is this explorative 354 00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:44,600 mindset of discover new things. That's really intrinsic in 355 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,200 humans. And what I've come to is also 356 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,700 with my studies and and school is that schools, not 357 00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:56,100 particularly a good Institute to keep this kind of fire burning 358 00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:59,400 it, at least. Yeah. 359 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,500 I've always, I'm I'm a student that actually also went to 360 00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:06,200 school and the liked it quite a lot. 361 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,000 So I didn't have a lot of problems with that, but I've 362 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,600 seen around me that not everybody likes that just kind 363 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,600 of being forced to learn. Yeah, even though, of course, I 364 00:19:15,608 --> 00:19:19,700 understand the need for our society and so on, but it would 365 00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:22,400 be beautiful. If you could keep this kind of 366 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,900 flame awake that learning is axons in beautiful, because it 367 00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:29,900 enriches your eyes in Rich and your capabilities, it enriches 368 00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:32,400 you as a Personnel as a personality. 369 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:38,600 Yeah, so it's probably just too many distractions nowadays for 370 00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:41,600 for a kid that's going to school and needs to learn about 371 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,900 economics and and probably it and biology and all that sort of 372 00:19:44,908 --> 00:19:47,200 stuff too many distractions, probably. 373 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,000 But one of the Beauties is in the, IT world. 374 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,800 There's so much to learn. I don't think you can learn all 375 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:53,800 the things. I mean, there's Cloud. 376 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,200 There's you can delve into software, specifics delve into 377 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,000 infrastructure as well and everything that goes around it. 378 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,900 I think we're kind of P to have found this and be able to learn 379 00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:07,500 on a day-to-day basis as well. That's correct. 380 00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:09,500 Yeah. But moving back to then 381 00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:11,100 certification. Exactly exactly. 382 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:14,800 Because certification is also kind of moment where you like in 383 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,900 school where you have to pause or do not pass. 384 00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:20,800 Yeah, which actually is some sort of artificial bar. 385 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,000 You raised for you said, okay. Now you're good enough or you're 386 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,500 not good enough. It's a kind of binary decision, 387 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:27,500 right? And learning as I've 388 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,600 experienced, it also myself is, it's never done, you know? 389 00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:35,000 Always know something and by experimenting more and more, you 390 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,500 get more into it and you get more proficient but it's not 391 00:20:38,500 --> 00:20:41,400 really, really dumb. So assuming that the 392 00:20:41,408 --> 00:20:45,500 certification is sufficient for someone to start, I didn't even 393 00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:49,100 study informatics exactly. I did it all by myself because I 394 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:51,700 had this interest because I really like to explore things 395 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:57,800 and find out how things work. How do they really work? 396 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:02,200 Okay, also, Under the hood, under the hood. 397 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,100 Yeah. Not only just the surface and of 398 00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:07,600 course you start with the surface, but then you kind of 399 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,300 get this to get you get this needs to discover, how how does 400 00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:14,500 it really work? And then probably really because 401 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,700 it's always layered after things work and I think that's the most 402 00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:22,700 important thing you have to keep awake and when you think that by 403 00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:26,000 doing certifications, you have that, I think that's the wrong. 404 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,500 That's the, that's the wrong approach saying. 405 00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:31,600 Having said that, it's Still, of course. 406 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,900 Okay, to have a certain base level when you step in your team 407 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:39,600 so it can be kind of good as an entry entry point there. 408 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,600 But also when we make decisions to bring someone on our team or 409 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,800 not it's not really how many certifications yet. 410 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,300 It's more how explorative someone is. 411 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:51,900 How playful is with new stuff? Yeah and I think this attitude 412 00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:56,400 in the in the long run is way more effective than just how 413 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,600 many accolades person has exactly. 414 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,100 Yeah. But then how because What I what 415 00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:03,700 I gather from this is that you really just their mindset, their 416 00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:06,800 capability to learn and you also brief their experience, probably 417 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,300 from the past as well. Exactly. 418 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,900 How do you get that? How do you get a grasp of what a 419 00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:14,200 person actually can do without all the accolades? 420 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,700 Let's say as it just by doing a conversation or is it more of 421 00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:20,700 like code interviews or how do you usually do that? 422 00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:26,100 And it's also good question at the Kleine right now we are also 423 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,400 part of our job is to bring in new people in the team. 424 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,800 Another one team also in the knees are not external people 425 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,600 but really people that want to commit themselves to this 426 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:35,700 organization. Yeah. 427 00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:40,600 And what I found very effective is to do a assessment. 428 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,200 Yeah. So this person has to program 429 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,400 something and in this assessment it's very broad. 430 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,200 We gave some boundaries. Yeah and it's a bit up to you 431 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:52,900 where you want to focus more front-end back-end or more API 432 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:55,100 more security. It's what you have to do what 433 00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:57,300 you think you can do and what is important for you? 434 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,800 If someone uses for instance, a new technology, Re be rewarded? 435 00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:05,100 Yeah, knowing that, of course it probably won't be as good as if 436 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:09,300 he would use this technology for years but Just Having the 437 00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:11,800 courage to do that, it's already worth a lot. 438 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,200 So and by doing so, we quite quickly, could separate the 439 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,100 adequate candidates from the Lesser ones. 440 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,100 Just also not only be what they done but also how they think 441 00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:26,400 about it, how they talk about their decisions to mate and why 442 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,500 the make decisions because they are. 443 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:30,500 They're the real knowledge actually resides. 444 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,900 Oh yeah. How do you really understand 445 00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:38,200 certain aspects of soft development with company's 446 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:43,200 compensation? Autonomous components coupling 447 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,200 and so on. I'm assuming you you I mean 448 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,400 someone hands in their work and then you talk through it 449 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,600 basically with them, right? So do you do a personal like a 450 00:23:51,608 --> 00:23:55,300 personal assessment first? Okay of course first you do 451 00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:58,400 personal assessment are you just check certain certain Corners 452 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:03,700 because you don't want to One doing such as a sandwich, takes 453 00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:06,100 quite some time. Yeah, even though you quite know 454 00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:08,400 that for personality point of view, probably won't fit. 455 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,700 So just have a normal talk where you look at the bit person, but 456 00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:16,900 what things he is profile, how he would fit in the team. 457 00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:18,900 That's truly a soft aspect there. 458 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:21,400 And you, of course, to the neverland, your duty with other 459 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,700 people and then for sure. And the interesting thing is 460 00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:27,900 that actually for every candidate, it's quite evident. 461 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,000 If it's a go or no go. Ok. 462 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,000 In the group. So that's quite a nice to see 463 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,200 in. So, in that sense, we are very 464 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:34,800 good. Align that with one another, and 465 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,800 when a person has passed this stage, then you let him do the 466 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,000 assessment and then, yes, to present it because you also want 467 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,700 to have some serious presentation skills and then you 468 00:24:43,700 --> 00:24:48,600 start asking tough questions. Yeah, there's a lot of soft 469 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,900 skills than involved as well. I mean, first, you need to kind 470 00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:53,200 of pass the first interview which is kind of a, let's call 471 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,400 it a culture fit, but then you also need to present your work 472 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,500 and be able to kind of gather your thoughts and put them out. 473 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,400 Out there as well as go through the code that you've just 474 00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:06,500 submitted. I guess it's quite a lot. 475 00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:09,500 I think, what's of, what's expected of someone to actually 476 00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:12,500 pass a certain level and get higher than as well? 477 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,800 Now, that's correct. Yeah, you think it's a, it's a 478 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,100 why companies are having trouble finding the right people as well 479 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,900 because they've set these standards and people are not 480 00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:26,900 really passing those or is it more that there's just not a lot 481 00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:34,700 of good people around The approach for instance, we use is 482 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,100 damaged all to other companies using it. 483 00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:40,000 I see. By the way, it more happening, 484 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:44,600 the recent years that also even for normal project assignments. 485 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,700 So not really that you want to board, want to join the company, 486 00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:49,400 but just want to join the project team. 487 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:52,500 Yeah. You will have to do some sort of 488 00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:54,100 entry level test to pass the bar. 489 00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:55,900 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 490 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,700 Happening a bit more and more. That's correct. 491 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,200 What do you think that is? Is it like a trust issue? 492 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,900 Or is it people actually want to see what you bring to the table 493 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:09,700 before they either hire you or except you within the either 494 00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:12,300 project or company? Where does that come from? 495 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,000 Because yeah. In that sense it's it's an 496 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:24,000 interesting topic because even though you can give person great 497 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:29,500 freedom and actually take all the boxes of personal personal 498 00:26:29,500 --> 00:26:31,300 growth that you can give To someone. 499 00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:36,200 Yeah, there still needs to be this kind of affinity with what 500 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,800 someone is doing. That's probably the best way I 501 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,200 can describe it. And I've seen this many times 502 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,800 around me, some have more Affinity than others. 503 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,700 And it is, of course, a very hairy thing to describe, but 504 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,700 some people should just have these technical intuition. 505 00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:55,000 They even throw probably are not really long doing it. 506 00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:57,400 Yeah, and all those people seen the dude, very long. 507 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:58,900 They don't have this still don't have it. 508 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,800 Yeah, you have the ones that It just yeah, once they they grab 509 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,200 something, they just use it the right way. 510 00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:09,200 They don't talk. They don't think too much about 511 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,500 it about. The hierarchies that are 512 00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:13,900 probably involved in such technology that just know to 513 00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:18,000 apply it in the right way and others don't have it. 514 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,700 Yeah, it's weird. It's probably. 515 00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:23,600 So anyway a gut feeling that everyone has yeah when they are 516 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,100 there let's say pick up an instrument. 517 00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:27,900 I mean you've seen probably older people with technology are 518 00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:30,400 always like, I mean fiddling with it and they don't really 519 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:31,700 Aspect as well. Exactly. 520 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,300 People from a younger generation that say, and I think technology 521 00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:38,900 is kind of the same, except that it's really broad. 522 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:41,900 I mean, you have even with the cloud now, you have so many 523 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:46,700 different levels that you need to be at least certainly or 524 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:48,400 adequate to a certain level. Yeah. 525 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,900 And you need to have the soft coat skills as well to 526 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,700 communicate about it. It's kind of broad, don't you 527 00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:56,000 think? Do you think everyone should 528 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,300 have a kind of a basic understanding of all those 529 00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:02,200 aspects and then Delve deep into some as well. 530 00:28:02,700 --> 00:28:05,100 Or are you more of the mindset that when you delve deep into 531 00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:06,500 one? The other one's kind of come 532 00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:11,500 natural as well. Yeah I recently read the book 533 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,600 Homo sapiens Safari. Yeah, we heard it is short 534 00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:20,100 history of human mankind. And what I've quite what I found 535 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:25,000 very, very interesting is that the Neanderthal species was 536 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,100 actually more intelligent and Homo sapiens released in terms 537 00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:29,800 of brain size. Yeah, definitely had a bigger 538 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,000 brain cancer. Probably. 539 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,500 Was he could definitely process more information than sapiens. 540 00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:37,400 But what differentiates our pins was collaboration? 541 00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:39,900 What we Can do at least collaboration. 542 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,100 I think they're the magic is and in a team, of course, it helps 543 00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:46,200 to be t-shaped. There's to have your speciality 544 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,000 and then no bit of the rest and think when you only eye-shaped 545 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,100 so you don't know one thing very well and there is not, it's not 546 00:28:52,100 --> 00:28:53,300 going to help in the team either. 547 00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:58,400 So it helps in the team that you have different special expert in 548 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,600 certain areas. Whereas everybody knows a bit 549 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,100 lot of enough about it, but then by really collaborating, you 550 00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:08,200 will get this this great results. 551 00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:11,300 So yeah. So that's kind of how do you say 552 00:29:11,300 --> 00:29:14,200 that the sum of the team is then greater than the actual. 553 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:15,300 Exactly. Exactly. 554 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:16,800 Yeah. Because, you know, each and 555 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,400 everyone's strengths and weaknesses. 556 00:29:18,500 --> 00:29:19,400 Yeah. We're a cover. 557 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,700 You know, what? A step in and help them out as 558 00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:24,100 well. Yeah, nice and what I've also 559 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,300 come to realize is that special is all generation and I'm also 560 00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:32,100 not the youngest anymore but the on learning aspect it becomes 561 00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:34,200 way more important. When you're young you used to 562 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,700 start. And you think the world is as 563 00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:38,200 the world is because the first thing you experience the world 564 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,200 But and then you, you acquire your skills and the skills, they 565 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,600 add some value to what you do. But when time goes by the 566 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,600 skills, you learned before, of course, they won't be as value 567 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,400 will all the time. So things go by and actively on 568 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,200 learn stuff, is kind of painful, right? 569 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,400 Because you had some effort gaining his knowledge, you had 570 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,400 some benefit applying it and then also, you have to let go, 571 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,000 that's hard thing, but still probably the most precious room 572 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,700 because then it's free space just to learn new things. 573 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,600 Yeah, that's also again. The fallacy. 574 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,700 I mentioned before that, you probably shouldn't consider 575 00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:18,200 yourself an expert in an absolute sense. 576 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,100 Of course, you're probably an expert now in a certain 577 00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:23,100 technology of certain thing you do and definitely certain 578 00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:26,300 principles will also apply for new technologies that sends the. 579 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:31,400 Principal thing doesn't change that fast also changes but not 580 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:36,100 that fast but also realizing that that for now an expert but 581 00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:39,000 tomorrow may be something else comes and when Compton, I have 582 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,200 to unlearn and relearn something new is really helps, and I think 583 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,100 it's also from a human perspective. 584 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,900 Also, a good thing to be a bit, humble about the things not that 585 00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:52,400 you get too self-assured about yourself knowing stuff. 586 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,500 Exactly. That's what the homeowners comes 587 00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:55,800 in. Yeah, that's very healthy. 588 00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:58,900 Yeah, it's not always fun but it's healthy for sure. 589 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,800 Yeah. That's probably with a mindset 590 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,600 comes in then as well if you actually interview candidates 591 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,400 people, that actually are able to let go of what they know and 592 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,000 delve into Thing that is completely new to everyone. 593 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:11,900 Yeah. Very nice. 594 00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:14,900 And I think the most important aspect there is that you just 595 00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:17,600 can keep this playfulness about new things. 596 00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:19,600 Yeah, there it comes. From not just to grab it and 597 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,500 then stick to it because now, I grabbed it now or never let go, 598 00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:26,200 no, just grab it now. Now it's nice to care and throw 599 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,800 it away, something else, because it's fun to learn new stuff. 600 00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:33,600 Yeah, and yeah, that also means it's not for everyone, right? 601 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,300 Because not, everyone loves that kind of building up the 602 00:31:36,308 --> 00:31:38,100 experience and then completely ring It Go. 603 00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:41,600 Kind of but definitely letting it go and trying out something 604 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,000 else. Yeah, I mean I've heard and read 605 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,300 that. Once you learn a certain 606 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,300 programming language to a certain degree that picking up 607 00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:52,200 the next one and kind of executing that in a similar 608 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,400 degree gets easier. That's correct. 609 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,300 And the next one even easier as well. 610 00:31:56,300 --> 00:31:59,100 Yeah, yeah. And I I mean, I know you love 611 00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:03,400 kotlin as well but you used to be a scholar certified trainer 612 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,500 before you became a government certified trainer as well. 613 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,000 Yeah, so I mean, I know you let go Oh of let's say a programming 614 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,700 language and step to the new one. 615 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,000 What's your kind of opinion on Copeland and where it stands 616 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,000 right now? Yeah, before that I of course 617 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,000 did a lot of java stuff also, with all the certifications you 618 00:32:22,008 --> 00:32:23,200 can imagine. Yeah. 619 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:30,700 For a move down to Scala and I think kotlin really achieved to 620 00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:35,000 position itself in The Sweet Spot between Java, which is 621 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,600 old-fashioned has really quite some drawbacks. 622 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,500 It's very verbose. Yeah. 623 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,800 Versus Scala which is extremely Advanced allows you to Address 624 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,300 it in very different ways, hard, core functional Morrow something 625 00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:53,600 in between it's very hard for teams to get some kind of 626 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,500 idiomatic approach how they want to do. 627 00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:01,700 It will definitely different across teams in the same company 628 00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:05,100 and even within the team it can differ based on the knowledge 629 00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:08,500 someone brings with him. Yeah and in coupling they 630 00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:12,300 actually cut out all the disadvantages. 631 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,200 Java has and literally all the disadvantages. 632 00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:18,600 Cheese. And of course, they didn't 633 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,600 invent all by themselves. They stole a lot. 634 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,000 Also from Scotland other language. 635 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,800 Sure, why not? And that that's that's fine, 636 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,100 right? I mean just best of breed. 637 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,000 And also, that's why I say it's in between between Java and 638 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,700 Scala. Also from Scarlet, they took a 639 00:33:33,708 --> 00:33:35,900 lot. But left the very complex of 640 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,800 very complex stuff that allows you to really go wild with 641 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,300 languages which specially in many contexts is just 642 00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:45,700 unnecessary make context. At least context. 643 00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:50,000 I mean it Enterprise context. Are you most of the time shift 644 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,700 data around, maybe sometime, sometimes do something more 645 00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:55,500 advanced than that. Yeah, I've seen that costly 646 00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:57,900 really, really shines. No nice. 647 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,100 Was it already in the assignment before you entered? 648 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:03,200 Or was it something that you introduced them were? 649 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,400 Like I mean hey this is something really neat. 650 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,500 Should we use this and if so, let's try it out. 651 00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:11,000 Something you introduced? Yeah it's something I introduced 652 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,600 because when I came there they just started out with the first 653 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,400 Microsoft was in Java. The old-fashioned way through 654 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,199 with all the bad practices like mutability. 655 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:27,800 No no no checking just yeah just to actually approach many 656 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,199 projects still do today and of course I came with his Carla 657 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,500 background but with Carla I read it my doubts. 658 00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:37,800 Certain if I just bring in all this complexity to this to these 659 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,000 people, this is going to be effective for what we are doing 660 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,699 because we just do Enterprise processing. 661 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,300 Those quite some of the old stuff and But it's just the end 662 00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:51,600 its Enterprise processing. It's not writing some scientific 663 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,199 software, that that really has to do, weird of complicated, to 664 00:34:55,199 --> 00:35:02,300 way, way out of free stuff. Then I looked at Kathleen and I 665 00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:03,900 felt a directly loved by so many of us. 666 00:35:03,908 --> 00:35:05,900 Carla background, cotton is quite easy to learn. 667 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,300 Okay? Then we did a sample project. 668 00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:09,800 Compared it to what you had in Java. 669 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,600 We sort of, you have tremendous, code reduction, we had way more 670 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,600 expressive domains, we had all these notability checks, Amor is 671 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,000 checked exceptions. We had everything immutable. 672 00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:22,600 It was a very was just great maintainable. 673 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,500 Safe. Software with 60% less code. 674 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,100 Yeah. Then the decision was quickly 675 00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:28,700 made. Yeah. 676 00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:30,600 Awesome. So, you actually did kind of the 677 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,200 both both same executions in different in different 678 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,300 languages. Yeah. 679 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,200 And then based on that, you actually chose Gatlin in this 680 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,000 sense and that's correct. And of course, the team was 681 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,800 involved. Yeah, sure, execute. 682 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,200 If this is what I mean, when I say you and I are exactly the 683 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:46,100 team. Exactly. 684 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,900 And also now because we still have some Legacy that is in Java 685 00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:53,800 and I we've written a lot. And when people just start 686 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,300 working on the star project then they really miss Scotland. 687 00:35:58,700 --> 00:36:00,400 Extremely fast. Damn. 688 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:01,400 It's really painful. Yeah. 689 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,000 Really. Yeah, so it's it's really a step 690 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,700 back. I treat it really feels like a 691 00:36:04,707 --> 00:36:05,700 step back. Okay. 692 00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:08,900 And it's not myself because I'm of course, I'm probably a bit 693 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:10,900 opinionated because I really love cotton linen. 694 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,200 Do a lot with it but also just the programmers there. 695 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,900 They I often. Here saying that to this. 696 00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:20,700 When are we going to rewrite this in Cotton? 697 00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:23,700 Because this is just a pain. Yeah, so when it when it's not 698 00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:27,000 really just your own opinion but also other people's opinion is 699 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,300 when it kind of becomes apparent that it is quite a step back. 700 00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:32,300 Now you get that. But people had to learn then on 701 00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:34,300 the job to make the switch as well. 702 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,000 Language-wise. That's correct. 703 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,400 And of course I'll help them because I've created these 704 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,600 calling course and they were my genie pigs. 705 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,600 In that sense, I try my cords out them on them and it helps of 706 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,300 course because Gave them these bail and he gave them certain 707 00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:49,600 boundaries. Yeah. 708 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,100 And by doing so they were very quickly effective. 709 00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:56,100 Now, we're still doing more advanced stuff with co-routines 710 00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:58,700 and asking programming reactive programming also, it's called 711 00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:02,000 lean and also their, I had some new models developed and first 712 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,900 they could do them. And then I let them also program 713 00:37:05,900 --> 00:37:09,000 with the more advanced concept and this just has paid out there 714 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,100 very well. Yeah, beautiful, how did you 715 00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:14,800 pick that up with you like all right, I'm going to take one day 716 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,900 a week or once every two Two weeks. 717 00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:20,100 And we're gonna have a day of kind of a one-to-many classroom 718 00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:23,400 session or is it you're going to try, try out stuff and come to 719 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,500 me whenever you have questions or will try to collaborate, and 720 00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:28,000 I'll be there as kind of a coach session. 721 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,200 So, yeah, that's it. That's a very good question and 722 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,700 which also actually relates to a principal. 723 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,300 Is it good to just let people go into the jungle and explore and 724 00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:43,500 learn stuff? Or is it better just to give 725 00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:47,000 them some certain degree? Some Some guidance. 726 00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:50,800 What is more effective? And some time ago, a taxi via, 727 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,300 we had a professor who really studied that with Kate's that 728 00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:57,600 Learn Python nice. And it was for my dress reason. 729 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,500 I open it because I experienced this before, what is more 730 00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:04,200 effective and this? The result of the studies, this 731 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:09,500 professor did kind of reassured my personal observation, which 732 00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:14,800 is that Kate's dad were just let out to into the wild, we're 733 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,300 definitely less effective than the ones that got some guidance. 734 00:38:18,700 --> 00:38:24,900 And the guidance is, of course, and it's an equilibrium in the 735 00:38:24,908 --> 00:38:29,400 sense that you have to give them some structure then, especially 736 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,000 with furtherance of instant assignments. 737 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,000 You have to let them go a bit beyond their comfort zone but 738 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,500 not too much just a bit. And if you do this bit, 10 times 739 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,800 with different assignments, different parts of the language, 740 00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:43,800 which they come from sword is cool growing quite quickly. 741 00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:46,600 They also get the boundary and the feeling of what are good 742 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,900 practices, bad practices. Whereas the ones with the free 743 00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:53,100 mindset, it's definitely less structured. 744 00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:57,100 They, you can also get lost quite quickly because there's so 745 00:38:57,100 --> 00:38:58,800 much information. Exactly. 746 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:00,900 Yeah. And that's what also experience 747 00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:05,500 with training in general, you companies that pick up new 748 00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:08,800 technologies, they probably will create quite some technical 749 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,500 death with the first projects to do eventually Learn it but 750 00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:14,500 themselves but probably the first two projects will be full 751 00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:16,700 of taking the F because did not doing it arrival doing. 752 00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:21,400 Probably the the new way in the in the style of the old program 753 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,400 language they are all from suboptimal then which is AB 754 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,200 optimal then yeah and that's the approach. 755 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,700 Also had then I applied in the company. 756 00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:31,300 So we first had these training sessions or fish during sessions 757 00:39:31,300 --> 00:39:33,000 with assignments or the handsome part. 758 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,500 So important, not only theory that re not not going to work. 759 00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:38,100 It's the Hands-On part burden, implicitly. 760 00:39:38,100 --> 00:39:42,700 They also get to know you. Pneumatic way, the boundaries, 761 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,600 how you dress it in this language best practice and so on 762 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,500 and then they did it on the job. He had some reviews but there 763 00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:54,000 was could relate back to what initially learned in the 764 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,400 training setting and this just works beautifully because now a 765 00:39:58,408 --> 00:40:02,500 developer just write code and maybe this is why I have to say 766 00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:06,200 something. But code-wise, it's it's fully 767 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,600 in line as if someone else has written it. 768 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,200 So we had this, we have this Unified We do not really see 769 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,500 which person has written. What? 770 00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:16,500 And I think this is really big achievement in Project when when 771 00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:19,200 you can code like that idea for searches shared understanding of 772 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,900 what is good code. And I think this approach I've 773 00:40:22,900 --> 00:40:25,400 chosen they're really contributed to this result. 774 00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:28,000 Yeah, it sounds like a huge boost in efficiency. 775 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,300 If everyone has kind of the same mindset in how they express 776 00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:35,500 themselves, code-wise makes it like reading a book, for 777 00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:37,100 example. Exactly. 778 00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:40,800 Yeah, is that also let's say I go to you. 779 00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:44,200 For a for a continent training is that also kind of how your 780 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,200 training is structured. So I have a day which is kind of 781 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:53,300 methodology, methodology, Oakley more Theory I guess and then 782 00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:56,100 some practice as well and with some days in between or is it 783 00:40:56,100 --> 00:41:00,700 more of a week course and you have days or of classes back to 784 00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:03,400 back and structured before covid. 785 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,200 It was of course, more classroom setting. 786 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,900 Now it's more remote and I've come to realize that it's not 787 00:41:07,900 --> 00:41:09,700 really a bad thing. Of course, you have to get used 788 00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:13,700 to it and turn Interaction. It's a bit less but you, we 789 00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:15,300 split such a training in half day. 790 00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:18,500 So every week half a day for instance, which gives quite some 791 00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:21,600 time for the people to absorb the, the knowledge better. 792 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,500 And also then next session they can ask questions about the 793 00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:27,500 stuff before maybe they tried out more things. 794 00:41:27,500 --> 00:41:30,400 So I think in the end run yeah it sticks better. 795 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,400 If you do it like that the program is always structured 796 00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:37,800 search that you have some Theory and theory in the sense that you 797 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,500 have some code samples. Also often related to another 798 00:41:40,500 --> 00:41:44,700 program language because the relative thing is strong. 799 00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:46,900 Yeah learning something from our alternative point of view 800 00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:48,900 himself. Absolute is way more easy for 801 00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:52,300 humans as we also know with chrome where you also estimate 802 00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:55,000 stories relatively. So the relative approach just 803 00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:00,600 works with humans, that was also a science teachers, that's a 804 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,700 dressy. So you have some samples where 805 00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:06,900 you just point out the most important parts and then 806 00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:09,700 directly some exercises. Also group exercises, also 807 00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:12,900 people can Enter own solution that you get discussion about 808 00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:18,400 it, but you also get a chance to create a shared understanding of 809 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,100 what is good code. Yeah. 810 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,300 This requires some involvement of everyone. 811 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,200 Yeah, it seems very interesting that it went from, let's say 812 00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:29,100 another crash course, week into half a day a week, then with a 813 00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:33,900 lot of breathing room and the ability to try things out and 814 00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:36,200 then I can come back and ask questions about that. 815 00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:37,900 Yeah. Do you think it'll stick even 816 00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:40,400 post covid? Kind of more online? 817 00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:44,200 Sessions or longer form trainings as well? 818 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,100 I think it will. I think it will only challenge. 819 00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:52,000 I still have now and there are some tools to come round is 820 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,700 Norman classroom. I just can walk around. 821 00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:59,000 Look at screens and I directly see where someone has some 822 00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:01,000 challenges with French an assignment. 823 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,100 Yeah, which implies of course, that probably certain part of 824 00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:06,700 the subject is not understood. There are some ways to work 825 00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:11,400 around that but that's harder because you choose Cannot walk 826 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,400 around. Look at someone else screen. 827 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,200 Yeah. And the sadder tools to do that 828 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,500 compilation tools. They also coming up because 829 00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:20,600 covid forces also tools to more go that way. 830 00:43:20,700 --> 00:43:22,100 I think it's a question of Tantalus. 831 00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:24,600 These tools are there that you can quite easily see what 832 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,200 someone else is doing. And once that the case, I think 833 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,000 there's really nothing else that keeps us from offering training 834 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,600 like that beautiful. Yeah, I get that the part of 835 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,600 actually being physically next to someone is a bit more 836 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,400 Hands-On than it would be otherwise offline as well. 837 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,900 Yeah, so then the, the final question I have for you is is 838 00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:46,900 let's say I'm someone that's very early in career and I want 839 00:43:46,900 --> 00:43:50,600 to step into development and being a software engineer as my 840 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,600 future career. What would be the advice that 841 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:53,900 you would give someone like that? 842 00:43:54,300 --> 00:43:57,800 Yeah, which probably will be some sort of summary of what, 843 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,100 I've, what I've mentioned in during the talk. 844 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,400 First of all, I think it's very, very, very important to keep the 845 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,700 spark of learning new stuff alive in yourself. 846 00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:16,200 So let yet let yourself be driven by the, the, the urge to 847 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,300 broaden your horizons broadened your skills by doing. 848 00:44:20,300 --> 00:44:25,600 So it helps to start structured to certain extent. 849 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,600 And once you have some sort of some sort of foundation and did 850 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:33,800 you can do with courses or everyone's different, right? 851 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,000 So I want to stay for in that sense, but it helps to start at 852 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,600 within a structured Manner. And from there on to Do not be 853 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:47,400 scared to ask for help and let your whatever you do be reviewed 854 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,800 and touched the sense to make it better by others. 855 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,600 So, always, stay open that you keep on growing. 856 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,700 So there is never a point which probably is something you might 857 00:44:57,700 --> 00:45:01,700 think cop comes once. When you start new in it that 858 00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:04,000 you want to know everything, there will never be a point 859 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,100 where you have the so always stay open. 860 00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:09,300 That new stuff will come. They do what you do today. 861 00:45:09,300 --> 00:45:10,700 Can be done tomorrow in the morning. 862 00:45:10,900 --> 00:45:13,400 Effective way. And when you are able to keep 863 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,000 this openness and keep, also the Choi, involves it to always 864 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,400 learn new stuff and broaden your yourself. 865 00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:23,300 I think, then you have a great right through through our 866 00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:25,400 industry. Beautiful beautiful. 867 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,900 Thanks Bruce. Thank you for coming on and hope 868 00:45:28,900 --> 00:45:32,600 to speak to you soon. Thanks to great, to talk to you 869 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,700 from your sponsors sepia, creating digital leaders. 870 00:45:10,900 --> 00:45:13,400 Effective way. And when you are able to keep 871 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,000 this openness and keep, also the Choi, involves it to always 872 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,400 learn new stuff and broaden your yourself. 873 00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:23,300 I think, then you have a great right through through our 874 00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:25,400 industry. Beautiful beautiful. 875 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,900 Thanks Bruce. Thank you for coming on and hope 876 00:45:28,900 --> 00:45:32,600 to speak to you soon. Thanks to great, to talk to you 877 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,700 from your sponsors sepia, creating digital leaders.