1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,360 You need to be adaptable. You need to be resilient because 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,880 the technology will outgrow you, the company will outgrow you, 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:08,520 your colleagues will outgrow you. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,880 Your hard skills get you in the room, but what will actually 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,560 make you thrive is how you collaborated with others. 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:18,760 If individual contributors, people with really good 7 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,560 technical depth, don't move up an organizational ladder, then 8 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,040 mediocrity will move up. Growth doesn't have to be a 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,520 promotion necessarily. I had to learn how to ask for a 10 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,960 feedback and you have to learn how to receive the feedback. 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,800 It's on you how you will grow. You have the ownership of your 12 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,760 own career, so don't outsource this to anyone else. 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,360 Joining me today is Sanina Katira, talent expert with many 14 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,560 years of experience in recruitment and she shares a few 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,840 steps that are crucial for you to grow within your career. 16 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:57,160 So enjoy. I've talked to some people 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,480 specifically in big tech about the promotion process and some 18 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:01,920 of the frustration that is in there. 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,000 And I've also been to a conference where someone was on 20 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,520 stage and said if you want to go become a staff engineer, you 21 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,920 have to do these things. And the things they described 22 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,600 were for me borderline, like very counterproductive behaviour 23 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,360 for business results and outcomes. 24 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,880 It's like communicating to everyone what you're doing, not 25 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:18,920 just knowing what you're doing, sometimes not even doing the 26 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,080 work, but being very much an advocate for it, networking with 27 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,160 other teams and other managers so they know what you do. 28 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,280 And I'm like, like, this is borderline toxic culture wise. 29 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,480 What is your take on that? This is exactly what the soft 30 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,920 skills are. Of course you will have 31 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,160 quantitative expectations set up in the beginning of the year or 32 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,760 in the beginning of the semester or the quarter. 33 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,760 Like I need you. If you're an engineer, I need 34 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,080 you to deliver, I don't know, 400 lines of code or something. 35 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:01,040 Eliminate bags by 30% or something. 36 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:06,080 Depends on what your your job is, but this is what you do. 37 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,880 So the hard skills is what you do, the soft skills is how you 38 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,640 do it. What is the impact that you 39 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:18,640 have? Like what is the value you 40 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:23,320 brought in the company? You need to showcase that. 41 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:30,560 You need to make those outcomes visible and it's not only about 42 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,760 the outcomes, it's about the impact actually. 43 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:45,160 So in for an engineer on the job, but even before the job, 44 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:49,000 during an interview or even before applying for a job, they 45 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:55,320 need to think how their work impacts the company's profit, 46 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,400 the company's success. So you need to create some 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,960 stories that they can start from your CV. 48 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:09,040 It's not that I know these languages and these frameworks, 49 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:17,840 but what did you actually do? Like I, I did documentation that 50 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:25,640 have the ramp time of newcomers, for example, or I'm reduced risk 51 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,040 by that percent in this job that I had. 52 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,920 The same goes during an interview process and the same 53 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:35,080 goes when you're actually an employee. 54 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:42,040 And not only once a year in your performance review, but 55 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,680 throughout the year. You need to search for the most 56 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:52,440 impactful things and also create and develop your business 57 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,800 acumen. We all work. 58 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,600 Not all of us, but most of us work in in profitable companies. 59 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,560 There is we need to be successful. 60 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,240 We need to sell the product, we need to sell the service. 61 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,440 How does your job contribute to that ultimate goal? 62 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,040 I truly wonder, and I might do a poll of this from the people 63 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,600 listening, how many people actually know how their work 64 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,480 influences business results, whether it's cost cutting or 65 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,920 it's contributing towards revenue growth or new growth 66 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,520 streams. If people are actually aware of 67 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,360 where kind of the puzzle piece that they're working on, how it 68 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,160 solves a bigger puzzle that people are trying to solve. 69 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,040 I feel like in bigger organizations, I've been part of 70 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,080 a a big organization and an engineering team where the piece 71 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:42,600 of the puzzle I'm working on is very small. 72 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,200 But I've also worked in smaller organizations, typically 73 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,080 startups or scale UPS, where engineering has a lot of 74 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,880 autonomy and a lot of authority. And they're sometimes A-Team can 75 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,320 be end to end responsible for a whole business line, even though 76 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,440 that is a risk. And in bigger organizations, you 77 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,360 cannot afford to have risk. But it's a lot of fun operating 78 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,960 in that. And then also kind of naturally 79 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,800 you know what your outcomes are that you're working towards. 80 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,680 Yeah, the smaller the organization is, the better 81 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:12,800 understanding you have of your impact. 82 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,920 Yeah, if you are 50 people, you understand you launched 83 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,680 something. But at the end of the day you 84 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,160 also understand that when you launched something, you talk 85 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:29,240 you, you are in the same office with 50 people and they can be 86 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,520 from sales or marketing or customer success. 87 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,920 So they can show you your impact immediately. 88 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,960 But in larger organisations, sometimes you miss that. 89 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,440 If I do research and I've done this, especially early in career 90 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,480 with regards to, OK, how do I make my resume stand out or how, 91 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,920 how do I make myself stand out? This is typically what is there, 92 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:54,440 but I didn't understand why, right? 93 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,680 I have to add metrics. I did cost savings for 20% and I 94 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,800 had it to add metrics to everything, but I didn't really 95 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,680 know my metrics. So then adding it to me felt 96 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,160 like I'm, I'm kind of like an imposter, like I'm trying to 97 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,360 make up some stuff that I don't actually know that I did. 98 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,560 Like I'd know what I did on a technical level, but I didn't 99 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,480 know my business results. And then I think as you grow 100 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,120 more in an organization, as you mature more within your career, 101 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,080 now I ask questions because I'm genuinely curious how my role or 102 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,520 how what I do on a day-to-day impacts the business. 103 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,480 And then I know even though it's very hard to still have tangible 104 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,640 metrics, I now have a better idea of how to explain how I fit 105 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,800 within this puzzle piece. So it's quite fascinating that 106 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,360 the reason why is really to also understand how you help a 107 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,840 business from your standpoint. Yes, you need to showcase your 108 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:44,680 soft skills and you need to develop them. 109 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,400 They're not innate skills. You don't you, you are not born 110 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,640 with them. You can develop them by 111 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,680 practice, by training. So your communication style, 112 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,520 your communication skills better not not your style, your 113 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:05,720 collaboration, your negotiation, how you influence others, how 114 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,760 you influence outcomes. Problem solving. 115 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,680 Problem solving is a competency that is a bundle of a lot of 116 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,160 hard skills, but a lot of soft skills at the same time. 117 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:25,960 You need to know how to use a specific database so you can 118 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,080 extract the data. You that's a hard skill if you 119 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,960 would like, but actually understanding the data, 120 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:39,160 converting them into a report, influencing others based on the 121 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,040 insights that you found. This is a soft skill and the 122 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,240 whole competency is called problem solving. 123 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:50,680 So if you come to me, either I'm a recruiter if you're looking 124 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,440 for a new job or if you are a manager during your performance 125 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:59,480 review and you say this is what I did and this is how I did it. 126 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:05,040 Because yes, I have this knowledge on language and 127 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:10,840 frameworks, but I also have developed my soft skills and I 128 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,560 implemented them there. So the how is what is usually 129 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,080 missing. It's the you need to be a good 130 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,520 storyteller. Yeah, Yeah, that really helps. 131 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,600 Like very early on in my career, especially at this company, I 132 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,920 worked with a colleague and I will always remember his name is 133 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:27,680 Taya. And Taya is one of the most 134 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,960 hardcore engineers that I've ever worked with to a point 135 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,520 where he says soft skills and the communication, all of that 136 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,200 is BS. From his perspective, speed is 137 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:36,799 everything that matters and results matter. 138 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,480 If you can show results, then people will buy into that. 139 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:43,799 And I always really admired that because it was something that is 140 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:48,040 so kind of polar opposite to my operating where I'm more of a 141 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,400 person that bridges and wants to take people with them. 142 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:55,440 And I have a lot of patience and I had zero kind of, but he did 143 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,760 execute. And within a team, if I have 144 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,480 someone like that, I can leverage that and I can bridge 145 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,040 the gap and I can have buy in and I can kind of resolve things 146 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,080 from a more commutative soft skills perspective. 147 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:10,760 But when it comes to execution, when you have a solo engineer 148 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,640 like that, that's very effective. 149 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,560 Oh yes, don't get me wrong, I didn't say that this is not 150 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:20,400 important. In my view, this is what gets 151 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,320 you in the room. Your hard skills. 152 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:28,360 If you deliver fast, if you deliver with the less risk or 153 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,200 the less bugs, yes that gets you in the room. 154 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:36,280 But what will actually make you thrive once you are in the room 155 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:46,120 is your How you collaborated with others, how you reduced 156 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,160 metrics, how you made improvements, how you iterate 157 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:51,960 it. How much? 158 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,360 Because I feel like if you're incredibly good at your hard 159 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,560 skills, people will know that, right? 160 00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:58,360 Even though you might be a difficult person to work with 161 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,880 and therefore you might not be hired through certain companies 162 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,600 because people just don't want to work with you, people still 163 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,920 recognise that you're effective. But on the opposite side, if 164 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,400 you're a great communicator, if you're a great storyteller, but 165 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,000 your hard skills are lacking, where will you see that? 166 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,320 Because some people with less technical depth, they might just 167 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,240 be like, yeah, he has the hard skills, but he might not 168 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,400 actually have the hard skills. And this is something that we 169 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:27,160 have seen and that happens. So you have the imposters, the 170 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,320 ones that they don't actually have the skills, but they talk 171 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:35,280 about them as if they had them and doors open for them. 172 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,480 And then you have the others that they go by the book. 173 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,280 They, as you say, they deliver fast. 174 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,840 They do their job, whatever you ask them to do, they deliver, 175 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,480 but then they don't grow. I I would say the truth is in 176 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,240 the middle. Gotcha. 177 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:55,200 When it comes to people that really have hard skills but are 178 00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:00,640 not having any value yet from their soft skills, so they need 179 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,880 to learn and grow from that aspect, where do you usually see 180 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:05,880 the ceiling for those people specifically? 181 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,560 I don't see a ceiling. OK, I don't see a ceiling. 182 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:17,360 I think if you are willing to improve a certain skill, any 183 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:22,360 skill, you can ask for help, you can ask for mentorship, you can 184 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,600 ask for training. And if you are determined that 185 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,160 you want to develop a skill, you can grow. 186 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:35,080 Now in traditional organisations we we see a problem in the 187 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:42,440 growth in in the career growth in the paths that companies are 188 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,120 they have designed in advance for their people. 189 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:51,960 And if we discuss more about specifically an engineer, if 190 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,760 you're a senior engineer or if you joined as a junior engineer, 191 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,800 you grew, you became better your technical skills, now you're a 192 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,480 senior engineer. Some companies, they only give 193 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,800 you the option to become a people manager after that to 194 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,160 become an engineering manager. That's not necessarily a path 195 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:18,320 that works for everyone. People, they don't have the 196 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,880 skills to be a people's manager. They don't want to or even 197 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:29,000 they're not good at it. So companies, they should 198 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:34,240 understand that they have to offer multiple options, either 199 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,240 an IC track, an individual contributor track, where you can 200 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:43,880 become more senior and you can contributed in a different way. 201 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,720 And if someone enjoys managing others, then yes, if the 202 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,320 opportunity is there and if you have the skills which you need 203 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,480 to prove that you have the skills to become a people 204 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,440 manager, yes, please go ahead and get the position. 205 00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:00,800 Yeah. I had a recent conversation 206 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,960 actually with my CEO also on this podcast. 207 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,920 And he's of the opinion that people that have really good 208 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,680 technical depth, if they are in an organization, they should 209 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,080 move upwards in some type of hierarchy. 210 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,720 So if that is more on an IC track where you become staff 211 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,440 engineer, senior staff engineer, etcetera, or whether it's on a 212 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,040 technical leadership role, people should move. 213 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,760 Because if individual contributors, people with really 214 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,240 good technical depth don't move up an organizational ladder, 215 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,960 then mediocrity will move up. And that kind of might kill your 216 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,600 organizational culture. People that get valued then 217 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,800 cascades into also more mediocrity. 218 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,200 And I thought that was an interesting perspective, but 219 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,040 like, organizations need to be set up for success to be able to 220 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:44,480 do so. Yes. 221 00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:49,760 And usually organizations, they make that mistake. 222 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,200 You hire a senior engineer. The senior engineer, at some 223 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,480 point he outgrows his role, but the role stays static. 224 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:04,600 And then the engineer lefts, leaves, and then the company 225 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,600 says, oh, the market is so competitive. 226 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,880 Someone else got that wonderful engineer from us. 227 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:19,560 That's not the truth. If you had created a path for 228 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:27,320 this person, if you didn't stick on the jobs titles, years of 229 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,960 experience so that they can see growth for themselves. 230 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,400 And you see, I'm not talking about promotion, I'm talking 231 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,720 about growth. Growth doesn't have to be a 232 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,400 promotion necessarily. So if companies they don't do 233 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,480 that, they will lose their people eventually. 234 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,080 Yeah. I want to zoom into kind of the 235 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,560 current day job market out there and specifically I want to get 236 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,680 your opinion on what sets people up for success. 237 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,280 You already mentioned soft skills and figuring out from the 238 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,280 business side what you're working on and how that 239 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,200 contributes to results. That's a great way and you being 240 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:04,960 able to communicate that really helps. 241 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,680 Hard skills you mentioned is a way to get the foot in the door. 242 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,480 What contributes even more with regards to people making 243 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,600 themselves stand out? I think there are two specific 244 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,800 soft skills that you need to have, adaptability and 245 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:22,840 resilience. Our world shifts so fast 246 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:31,160 nowadays with with AI and you need to be adaptable, you need 247 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:36,360 to be resilient. You cannot afford not be 1 248 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,600 because the technology where will outgrow you, the company 249 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,360 will outgrow you, your your colleagues will outgrow you. 250 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:49,560 And then there are two options. Either the company doesn't need 251 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:54,760 you anymore or you get bored or you cannot contribute anymore. 252 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,920 You are disengaged, you are disconnected. 253 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:02,280 So you need to be up to date. When it comes to adaptability 254 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,040 and resilience, for me, sometimes they might be kind of 255 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,560 opaque concepts. How do you make them tangible or 256 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,800 how do I show resilience or adaptability as an IC? 257 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:18,640 By being proactive, identifying the problem before the problem 258 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:26,640 shows and also suggest the solution while others are trying 259 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,200 still to identify what the problem is. 260 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,560 You already go there with a solution, with options, not one 261 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,800 solution, but you go there and you test something, you pilot 262 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,480 something, you experiment with something. 263 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:45,160 So you're you are showing also another soft skill that you're 264 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,520 willing to learn, you are willing to grow and you're 265 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:55,320 investing time in this. Either it is a successful or not 266 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:01,840 solution. You you had them the drive to do 267 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,760 it. Yeah, I like that a lot. 268 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,800 I recently spoke to AVP of engineering as well and he said 269 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,480 that our our most senior engineers are the people that we 270 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,040 can just give an opaque problem to a very abstract thing. 271 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,480 And they indeed they own solutions end to end. 272 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:18,839 They have the responsibilities. He called it Adri, some people 273 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:21,960 didn't get the context. So it's a directly responsible 274 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,000 individual, yes. Yeah, I've heard that term 275 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,280 before, but only in very specific organizations that use 276 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:27,680 it. My organization doesn't have it. 277 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:34,360 Yeah, we, we have it in in my company actually it's one of our 278 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:37,720 ways of working. So every project follows the 279 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,840 RASI method like who is the DRI, who is the accountable, who is 280 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,200 the interested? Like you're not actually 281 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,320 contributed, but we need to inform you like a. 282 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,360 Stakeholder. Yes, that's the RASI method. 283 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,240 The RASI, Yes. OK, RACI. 284 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,920 I'm going to put some stuff in the description for the the 285 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,520 acronyms stuff, yeah. It's a, it's a framework. 286 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,440 I mean, you, you can find it with other acronyms, but at the 287 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,720 end of the day is who makes a decision? 288 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:08,280 Gotcha. Yeah. 289 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,600 You need to know who is making the decision because 290 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:17,480 collaboration is wonderful. But unless someone takes 291 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,560 responsibility, unless you have one person to give you the green 292 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,880 light or to say no, this is not possible to be done. 293 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,760 You have you end up having a bunch of contributors that 294 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:38,120 nobody's taking the lead. Yeah, I feel like most often, 295 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:41,040 and especially I'm reflecting now early in career, like I was 296 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,560 very happy doing my thing and kind of letting those 297 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,680 responsibilities of the right decision making fall onto other 298 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,400 people's shoulders. And I had a lot of faith in 299 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,520 that. And then when I got burned and I 300 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,000 got burned a few times, then I started asking questions because 301 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,240 some stuff that I would build would would not make sense. 302 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,160 And if someone would not be able to explain the context for me, 303 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,840 that kind of is a hit in the trust that I have into someone. 304 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,040 Because if they are not able to explain it to me, then how well 305 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,520 do they understand it themselves? 306 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,800 Or have they actually asked these questions to the people 307 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,080 that actually make the decisions? 308 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,320 And if not, why not? Because otherwise what are we 309 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,720 doing in the 1st place? Like those thoughts more and 310 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,080 more stuck with me to a point where even as an IC, as a 311 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,520 software engineer, I got so interested that I even moved 312 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,000 into product for like a year and a half. 313 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:23,880 Now I'm back software engineering and my next 314 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,960 assignment's also going to be product because I actually care 315 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,760 about business metrics and moving the needle a little bit 316 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,400 more than just tweaking software and being in the nitty gritty of 317 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,840 that. I enjoy that, but I enjoy that 318 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,240 even more when I know it's working towards a certain 319 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,520 outcome. I feel like the people that are 320 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,960 aware of that and even though it might not be their Forte or 321 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,520 their their preference in the 1st place, but they are able to 322 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,200 communicate that will definitely distinguish them from others 323 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,560 that cannot. Yeah. 324 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,120 What else have you seen people really leverage? 325 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,840 So you mentioned resilience, adaptability, and how to show 326 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,800 that in proactivity. How do people stand out? 327 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,120 Yeah, I think that's enough, isn't it? 328 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:09,120 Yeah. Then going into hard skills and 329 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:10,760 soft skills. For me, this was always 330 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,320 interesting because I really love the hard skills part of it. 331 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,000 I started in operations that I moved into software engineering 332 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,600 and then I read, had joy into figuring things out, tweaking 333 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,080 things and then making things work. 334 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,640 Getting a green light on a pipeline and then having a pull 335 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,240 request go through is what I really found joy in. 336 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,240 So when people ask me, OK, how do I balance developing a hard 337 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,120 skills and soft skills, I don't necessarily know if you need to 338 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:35,760 focus on one versus the other. In the end, you need both. 339 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,840 Oh yes, you need both at the same time. 340 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,080 You don't have to choose one over the other, but if you are 341 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,000 aware that you are lacking 1 certain skill, you can invest a 342 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,160 little bit more time in developing that skill. 343 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,840 That doesn't mean that you will leave the rest for three months 344 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,760 or a year and say, oh, I'm very good at this, so I will only 345 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,200 focus on this skill. But if this is the only skill 346 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,520 that you're missing in order for you to grow, then you need to 347 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:11,000 invest a little bit more time. And how do you know that's? 348 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,320 That's the next question. You need to have set up 349 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,280 expectations. You need to have a very clear 350 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,600 direction on what is expected from you and. 351 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,000 Your manager should be able to give you that or who should. 352 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,840 Yes, yes, your manager and your manager's manager. 353 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:34,000 And of course they have. Ideally, they have consulted a 354 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,800 human resources professional or a people specialist about that 355 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,960 because everything is connected at the end of the day. 356 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,440 It's not only your manager's desire that you have specific 357 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,200 skills, it has to come from the top. 358 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,800 Yeah. If I ask my manager what do I 359 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,800 need to do, or from your perspective, what am I not doing 360 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,000 that I should be doing to get to a next level and they don't have 361 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,840 a good answer, what do I do? Because they should have the 362 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,800 answer, at least from my perspective, but sometimes they 363 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,320 do not. What is that next level that 364 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,160 you're talking about? So my manager's manager or my 365 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,840 growth level? Your growth level, so is do you 366 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,760 have any other colleagues that they are in this level, you go 367 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,240 ask them. OK, but they might just say, 368 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,280 well, it's, it's luck of the draw and some people get 369 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:24,960 promoted and other people's don't. 370 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,680 And it's like time based. I, I hate the idea of time based 371 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,840 promotion. I want to see promotion based on 372 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,880 skills, based on merit and based on outcomes, but not all 373 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,880 organizations have that. So then it's also tenure, which 374 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,600 plays a big part. And not all organizations have 375 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,960 to have that. Imagine that a company starts 376 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:49,520 with 100 employees and in three years time all these employees, 377 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,840 they grow, right? All senior. 378 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:57,160 All senior? Do you need all senior people? 379 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,760 No, you don't. You need to have a good balance. 380 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:06,040 So you need to be very careful on your workforce planning. 381 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:12,080 You cannot say, oh, I need 100 senior people, Congrats, get 382 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,440 them. Let's say that your recruiting 383 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,600 team, they're so awesome and they get you 100 senior people. 384 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,840 What do you do with them in two years time? 385 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,320 In three years time, is there any space for them? 386 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,560 Maybe there is, but most companies, they don't plan 387 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,320 ahead. They they want to cover their 388 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:32,800 current needs. Yeah. 389 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,520 So if I'm an employee in an organization already in certain 390 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,960 organizations that I've been in, if I don't see a growth path for 391 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,720 myself, I'm not going to be happy because I'm like what? 392 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,960 What is the next level? Either I only see people 393 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,000 managers or I say I see people like me, but I don't see them 394 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,040 moving upwards with regards to a hierarchy or with regards to 395 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,240 more responsibilities. I don't necessarily have a lot 396 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,400 of value in titles. My organization's a little bit 397 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,760 strange because my title has been the same for six years and 398 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,280 that's what all the consultants have. 399 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,680 They're consultant on paper and that might be a problem with new 400 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,080 regulations coming in, but that's. 401 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,160 Why? Yeah, you're right. 402 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,520 But that's why I don't really value a lot in a title. 403 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,120 But I do want growth. Yes, so. 404 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,880 And you shouldn't value a title because a title is a title and a 405 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,480 title can mean different things in different companies. 406 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,240 But you should value scope, scope of your work. 407 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,560 And again, I'm not talking about more workload. 408 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:38,240 I'm not saying that you're so busy that you stay over time. 409 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,200 I'm not talking about more workload. 410 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,760 I'm talking about more scope and more impactful projects. 411 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,640 Now I I cannot give you an advice on how what to do. 412 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:57,240 In your specific no no. No, not my situation, but yeah, 413 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:04,760 people, they should be very certain about what they want. 414 00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:08,840 Let's say you find out what you want. 415 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,280 I need to become XI, need to grow into a product manager. 416 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,600 I need to grow into an engineering manager. 417 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,800 You need to have a career goal. And then you communicate that 418 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,880 with your manager and you say, is that possible here? 419 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,920 If yes, because I know if the position opens, if someone 420 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:34,640 leaves, if the business need comes, but I want to be prepared 421 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,800 when this time comes, what do I need to do so I can be the best 422 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,080 candidate when the opportunity arises? 423 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:44,920 And they should have an answer for that. 424 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,560 They should or. Someone should they need. 425 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,760 To found someone, someone should have an answer to this. 426 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,200 But the fun thing is I like impact for work. 427 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,960 And somehow I feel like I always wiggle my way through and then 428 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,400 get to impact for work. But what you say really hits 429 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,360 home with me for other people that I've seen where they're 430 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,000 super busy, but then the work that they might be doing might 431 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,120 not be as impactful as they want it to be. 432 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,480 And they either have the awareness or they don't have the 433 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,320 awareness. And typically when they have the 434 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,280 awareness, they're like, yeah, but the impact for work is 435 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,480 finite. And it doesn't just go to me 436 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,720 because I'm part of a team. So it kind of goes to everyone. 437 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,080 Or some people jump on it and then I don't want to step on 438 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,640 their toes. Like, there's a lot of reasoning 439 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,280 there. But in the end, if everyone 440 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,560 wants to do impactful work, I think that's really good for an 441 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,400 organization. Yet people are working like on 442 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,400 busy work. Sometimes that is not as 443 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,720 effective. There is always that business as 444 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,160 usual, as we call them, call it the BAU, but you will always 445 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,960 have those tasks in any profession you have. 446 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,800 But you will always work on some projects at the same time. 447 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,000 Either you're an engineer or you're an account manager or 448 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,920 you're a recruiter or you're a marketing manager. 449 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,600 You should have your business as usual, but at the same time, you 450 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:09,680 should work on more outside of the box, more experimentation, 451 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,480 more R&D if you would like. So what's next for us as a 452 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:19,480 company? And this is where we connect the 453 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,640 impact because let's take that for granted that you love the 454 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,480 company that you work at, you support them, you're a big fan 455 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,720 of the product, you are a big fan of their mission and vision, 456 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,640 and you see yourself as part of it. 457 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,600 If you see yourself as part of it. 458 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,000 And of course, some companies, they assist you thinking like 459 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,920 that by giving you shares of the company, like you are an actual 460 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,840 shareholder. You also want to do more about 461 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,280 the company. That's why I said before you 462 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,960 need to come with ideas. And not only an idea, a plan. 463 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,920 And not only a plan, perhaps something that you have tested, 464 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,240 a pilot, something that you have tried before or you want to 465 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,120 implement it differently in a different project. 466 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,920 It's interesting because if someone were to came to me and 467 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,040 negotiated with me or I, I feel like that's kind of negotiating 468 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,800 and says, OK, I don't feel like the work that I'm doing is 469 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,120 impactful. I don't have any impact for 470 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:24,120 initiatives. I typically have business as 471 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,920 usual, but here is an idea, something that I've done an 472 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,520 experiment with and these are the options and this is really 473 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,200 what I want to do. Why not from my perspective, 474 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,200 have someone work on that? Because first of all, they took 475 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,920 initiative. Second of all, they seem super 476 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,160 excited about this thing. They want to grow and work on 477 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,560 impactful thing and they feel like they have this thing. 478 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,240 Yeah. So organisations, they should 479 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,000 enable the growth of their employees. 480 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:54,240 They should offer, let's say frameworks, processes, how you 481 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,840 grow, but it's on you how you will grow. 482 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,120 You have the ownership of your own career. 483 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,360 So don't outsource this to anyone else. 484 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,240 Do you feel like, because I feel like I've asked this question in 485 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,680 a poll, I don't remember the results, but I was like, OK, how 486 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,920 much control do you actually have over your own career? 487 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,600 It's a feeling. Let's say on a scale of 1 to 10, 488 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,600 it was not a 10. Definitely not. 489 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,680 People feel like there are many other influences about their own 490 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,040 career, whereas I do feel like you should be able to own your 491 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,320 career. I'm never going to say it's 492 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,880 going to be a 10, but to a certain degree you should feel 493 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,280 ownership over your career path because it is yours, even though 494 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,600 external influences are there and they will influence. 495 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,400 Yeah. And we have seen the past few 496 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,040 years now that external factors like in the market, 497 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:50,680 geopolitical, health and others there are out of our control. 498 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,200 So you cannot really control having a pandemic and you're 499 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,560 losing your job. Yes, nobody's going to blame 500 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,520 you. For that Black Swan events. 501 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,520 Yes, yes. We're not talking about the 502 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,920 external factors. We are talking about within 503 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,080 let's say safe environment which you are in, in an organization 504 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,040 that you are and how you want to grow. 505 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,360 And again, if you see that there is no more space for you there, 506 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,400 you can start looking for something else. 507 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,000 It's OK. Yes, yeah. 508 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,760 Yes, if people are listening and they are maybe not at that level 509 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,640 where they feel like, OK, I have control over my career, but 510 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,760 there's no Black Swan events. Let's just assume that what 511 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,960 would be for, for them the next step to get a better feeling of 512 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,480 getting control over their career? 513 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,280 Is that talking to someone? Is that setting up career goals? 514 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:40,840 What would what would your advice be? 515 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:48,760 Start with your mentors and also do some, I don't know, 516 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,400 meditation. Like write down what what do you 517 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:58,080 want to do? What's your ideal Tuesday at 518 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,760 work? Which task do you enjoy the 519 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,000 most? Do you enjoy talking to people? 520 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:12,720 Do you get fulfilment when I don't know you see revenue 521 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,480 doubling. Try to understand what triggers 522 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,000 you, what motivates you and try to talk to people either 523 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,760 internally in the company. If you cannot find them, just go 524 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,840 outside. It feels like it's a lot of self 525 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,680 reflection to get a better understanding of what makes you 526 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,840 take what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy. 527 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,680 Someone out usually has to trigger me for that. 528 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,960 Like I I am very bad at just sitting down and doing self 529 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,400 reflection. That's why I like having 530 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,680 conversations like this, because it makes me reflect. 531 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:50,200 You need to have your eyes open. You need to know what happens in 532 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,320 the market. I was talking to a friend the 533 00:31:53,320 --> 00:32:00,800 other day who's a software engineer and he's in between 534 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,640 jobs right now. And I suggested I shared with 535 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,560 him an article podcast. I don't remember. 536 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,720 And within this podcast there was the name of a company and he 537 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,560 was like, oh, I didn't know this company. 538 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,720 I'm like, this company exists for years now. 539 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,320 How come you didn't know? So you need to open your eyes. 540 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,160 You need to understand what is out there. 541 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,760 I'm not talking about salary security like your your 542 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,040 benefits, your compensation package. 543 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,680 Yes, this is this is wonderful. But if you care about your job, 544 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,720 because again, not everybody there are I, I know a lot of 545 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,600 people that they just want to go 9 to 5, do their job, get their 546 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,400 paycheck and then go home. That's fine. 547 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,120 That's fine. But if you have something in you 548 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:54,760 that doesn't keep you, keeps you awake at night, and you want to 549 00:32:54,760 --> 00:33:02,080 do more for XY reasons, you need to open your eyes, go there and 550 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,800 learn from others. Try to research. 551 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:12,000 And I mean, these days we do have AI people and it's the 552 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,080 excuses of not knowing they're not a lot anymore. 553 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,200 No, I get that. I think it's, I mean, I love 554 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,000 people with ambition. Like I feel like if you are 555 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,680 passionate about something, it just fuels energy in in other 556 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,840 people. So especially those people, if 557 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,800 they reach out to me, I'm open to help. 558 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,640 And I've seen other people make use of that when they are either 559 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,640 laid off or they're looking for their next assignment, they want 560 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,760 to grow faster. They typically reach out to 561 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,560 people within those organizations with just a 562 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,360 genuine question. I'm interested in these things 563 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,360 or this thing I researched and I don't really, and I'm thinking 564 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,120 you can help or can you with a genuine question. 565 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,080 Typically, people are actually very willing to help. 566 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,200 I think it is the best platform to reach out to people. 567 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,160 I do it all the time and it works wonders. 568 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,120 Yeah. So even though you might be 569 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,280 listening and you think, OK, I don't really have a network or 570 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,960 anything, I feel like there's enough tools out there nowadays 571 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,280 to familiarize yourself with kind of the type of companies. 572 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,800 Do I want to work in enterprise, big, medium, small? 573 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,199 Do I want to work in consultancy versus agency versus product, 574 00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,480 let's say? And then what type of role, what 575 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:15,719 do I want to do on the day-to-day? 576 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,120 Requires maybe a bit of reflection, but you can also 577 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,520 just ask a question. And again, the professions, they 578 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,360 evolve a lot. The job that I have today didn't 579 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,760 exist 10 years ago or 20 years ago. 580 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,120 When I was growing up, I didn't even know that I won't do this 581 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,000 job. So try to be open minded. 582 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,440 Maybe there is something out there, especially with the AI 583 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,760 technology nowadays, that you, you or none of us have imagined 584 00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:51,280 that it will exist in the next couple of years. 585 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,159 Zooming into you then specifically, do you have career 586 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:58,640 goals for the next few years or what is that timeline horizon 587 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:00,400 that you're thinking of typically? 588 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:12,480 There are periods that I have a very clear path and there are 589 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:19,520 others that I'm more exploring. OK, but visualizing it helps. 590 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:25,760 Many years ago and I will thank one of my ex managers who made 591 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:31,360 me visualize it. I was still a recruiter at that 592 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,960 point and they were like OK what do you want to do? 593 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,320 So I created a nice middle board and I said I want to become a 594 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,920 senior recruiter. Then I will do something else 595 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:47,280 something else. And in the end I want to buy an 596 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,200 island. OK, not bad. 597 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,360 I like that a lot. Yeah, why not? 598 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:59,240 Like having, of course that's not the actual goal, that's not 599 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:05,360 career ambition if you would like, but that it gives you. 600 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,440 It gives you the self reflection that I am ambitious. 601 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,440 Let's just put it like that people, they are ambitious, but 602 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,680 sometimes they don't even know that they're ambitious. 603 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:28,640 So creating and visualizing your your career and if something is 604 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,600 missing and some, if some steps are missing, that's fine. 605 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,440 Maybe you can add instead your impact. 606 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:41,240 There are people that they want to have impact in society. 607 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,120 Maybe you don't know how and where and what, what's the name 608 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,680 of the company that could offer you this, but it could actually 609 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,960 be that. Just just write what what do you 610 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,560 want to get out of it in specific phases of your career. 611 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,080 Sometimes you are a little bit more motivated for for the 612 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,720 money, others it's the fulfilment of the job. 613 00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:08,280 Some others it's the impact, some others is stability. 614 00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:11,800 So depending on which phase you are, you can you can adjust. 615 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,680 Did you get help with visualizing this or was it 616 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,880 really just yours? No framework, just write down 617 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,160 whatever comes to mind. I started as whatever comes in 618 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,960 mind, but then because my, my company had very specific 619 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,360 rubrics, competency matrixes for each level. 620 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,320 So I could also connect it with my, with the organization. 621 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,520 Like these are the skills that I have now. 622 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,840 These are the ones that I am doing very well. 623 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,480 These are the ones that I can still develop. 624 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,680 And these are the, the ones from the next level that I want to 625 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,160 grow. So I was working with my 626 00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:58,120 managers and I, I was saying I want to be involved in projects 627 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:03,200 so that I can showcase to you these skills, either hard or 628 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,840 soft skills, and your manager can assist you with this. 629 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,760 Yeah, specifically for skills and growth in those skills, 630 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,440 it's, it's very easy and it's always been easier for me to go 631 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,560 towards certain skills that I feel like I already have a knack 632 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,880 for and to really deepen them out and excel at those rather 633 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,360 than looking at skills that I'm not as good at. 634 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,240 Because I feel like I can either delegate or I can accommodate in 635 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:29,000 a different way by being good at other skills. 636 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,640 But I do feel like you need to have at least the minimum 637 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:37,800 capability on a certain level for a lot of skills, especially 638 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,440 as software engineer. So we talked about soft skills 639 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,560 and hard skills, but hard skills have a big slew when it comes to 640 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,640 technology. And then soft skills, just by 641 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,520 virtue of you interacting with so many people, the bigger your 642 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,360 impact is, likely the more interaction you will have with 643 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,960 more people or different people with different agendas, 644 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,120 different political stances, and different sizes of 645 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,040 organizations. So it's, it's a lot. 646 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,000 And having a minimum set with regards to a lot of things I 647 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,960 think helps. And then figuring out what 648 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,880 you're really good at and what you're not as good at, you can 649 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,480 accommodate for and thrive in the things you are good at. 650 00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:12,280 And if you don't know, you can always ask for feedback. 651 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,240 Can you just ask for feedback just like that? 652 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:22,280 Yes, I want to get better. I am trying to learn a new skill 653 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,080 or I'm trying to reflect. I mean, we are heading towards 654 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,440 the end of the year. So there are many resolutions 655 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,160 happening. You can go to your colleagues, 656 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,240 you can go to your direct reports to your managers or to 657 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:39,080 your stakeholders or or to the customers. 658 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,280 Actually, if you have a good relationship with them and say 659 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,520 I'm looking for feedback, could you provide me with some 660 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,640 constructive feedback? And within this constructive 661 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,240 feedback, maybe you can, you might have an A moment or maybe 662 00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:54,240 not. That's also nice. 663 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:56,760 Yes, but but you will definitely learn something, yeah. 664 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,560 What withholds people typically from asking feedback in that 665 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:00,880 you've seen? Fear. 666 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,640 Really, I've it's it's the fear of the fear of what they already 667 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,200 know that they're not good at. Yeah, yeah, that's sad. 668 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,800 But also asking for feedback is a skill itself. 669 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:23,400 OK, so I also had to learn that I didn't know I was brought up 670 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,520 in a society where questions are not asked. 671 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,200 OK, so we will tell you what to do and you will execute. 672 00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:37,200 OK, yeah, command and control. Yes, command and control. 673 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:43,280 So many years ago, I went to an organization and I was not 674 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:50,400 growing. And then before I left that 675 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,560 organization, I had some open conversations with a couple of 676 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,640 my very senior stakeholders and with my manager. 677 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,640 And I said, yeah, I know that things didn't work out. 678 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,840 How can I do better? And they were like, why are you 679 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,640 coming to us now? Oh, OK, yeah. 680 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,480 I'm like, I didn't know I was allowed to. 681 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,360 I didn't get any direction from my manager at the time. 682 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,520 No one tells you. No, nobody told me. 683 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,480 Of course I was an external collaborator. 684 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:28,880 I was not inside the company. There were different more admin 685 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:36,200 things, let's say that were not enabled me for for this, but 686 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,600 they were like, wow, I we wish we could change our minds. 687 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,040 You should have come earlier to us. 688 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,800 I had to learn how to ask for feedback, and you have to learn 689 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,520 how to receive the feedback. Once you ask for it, you need to 690 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,880 learn how to receive it. I, I never even have had this 691 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,640 perspective because I feel like in Dutch culture and the culture 692 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,360 that I grew up with, people are very good into giving feedback, 693 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,120 sometimes even not ask, but also then taking feedback like it's a 694 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,120 very Dutch thing. So feedback kind of came 695 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,200 naturally. I have learned that advice is 696 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,440 very different from feedback, and people love giving advice. 697 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,720 But I want feedback. I don't just want to know what 698 00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:18,320 you would advise me to do. I want to know what I did, what 699 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,440 you observed and how it made you feel or how you saw it had 700 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,600 impact on others. And I can learn from that. 701 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,040 Those are like observations. Not necessarily what I should 702 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,880 do, but what I have done and what you thought about it. 703 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,640 Yeah. So you need to go with specific 704 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:36,560 questions to these people, not an open-ended question like as 705 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,760 as you said. What did I do? 706 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,280 How did I make you feel? Did I facilitate you or did I 707 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,320 create a blockage for you by me doing XYZ? 708 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,600 Yeah, The funny thing is within organizations, and I'm now just 709 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,120 reflecting on this, people like ask for feedback, but they never 710 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,680 tell you how. And then you you go Google or 711 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,920 you have a standard template and it's always what did I do Well, 712 00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,800 what what did I not do well and what should I do? 713 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,240 I like one of the one of those and maybe even a rating system 714 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:05,240 star one out of five, whatever that means. 715 00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:09,840 So yeah, I feel like consciously being, asking your feedback can 716 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,840 actually be incredibly valuable. And I don't think a lot of 717 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,240 people make use out of that. And it's a very kind of low, 718 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,440 yeah, low gap to bridge, basically. 719 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,560 Yeah. Yeah, thanks so much for coming 720 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,160 on and sharing, Zenina. I had a lot of fun. 721 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:23,720 Yes, me too. Me too, Patrick. 722 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:25,080 Awesome. We'll round it off here. 723 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:26,880 If you're still with us. If you're still listening, let 724 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,960 me know in the comments section what you thought of this episode 725 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:29,960 and we'll see you on the next one.