Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akeel, and if
you're interested in creative entrepreneurship, purpose,
values, and how to build great businesses, this episode is for
you. Joining me today is Lindsay
Fowler. She's Founding Director at Cloud
Fields, where they help creatives build great
businesses. I'll put all her socials in the
description below. Check her out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode beyond.
Coding Well is this the first podcast you're doing?
This is my second podcast, second one, so I'm pretty green
at this, but I don't know, I I think the first one I did when I
was really nervous because I wasn't really sure the purpose
of it. But this, I mean I think the
more you do them, the more they become more comfortable.
And and also I think when we spoke initially it was about
just having a conversation, which I'm much better at, right,
coming on being like so was it, was it interviewee?
What the the other podcast. It was a little interview.
It was. It was a dialogue.
It didn't get me wrong. It was a dialogue.
But I think I was. I was, yeah.
I think I was probably in a different headspace as well.
Yeah, yeah. Different time.
So yeah, how long ago was it? Last year actually.
Yeah. Yeah, I have.
I've kind of been dabbling with the podcast thing because I
think that, you know, when it comes to marketing and it comes
to how you know you sell a business, I think there's so
much more about the the personality of the people that
work there. And I think it's all fine and
good having a personal brand, but I'm not really interested in
promoting myself. I'm more interested in promoting
what we do. And so it's kind of about having
to kind of what am I trying to say is it's.
The podcast is better because it means I can talk about what
we're interested and what we're curious about and not talk about
me. And like, you know, I'm so tired
of seeing on Instagram people's faces, just telling you what
they think. And so I just think it's the
dialogue with somebody's more interesting.
Yeah, you know, it's not just like me, me, me, me, me.
So yeah, I've, I've started. I mean, I always wanted to talk
to someone on the podcast, but then people started asking
questions and I was like, OK, we can, we can probably do
something with this. So I've tried to do some special
episodes every 10 episodes. I do like a Q&A where people
sending questions and then I just, it's just me and the
camera. I just talk and I I love doing
it so much. It's so fun.
I thought, that's really fun though, because you probably get
some really mental questions. Those are some really good
questions. People are like, like, if you
look at other people, because everyone's online, everyone's on
LinkedIn. People only see success stories.
They're like, OK, I'm not moving as fast as these other people.
Like, how do I, how do I deal with that?
Yeah, and I I tried my best to answer that and I hope it's it's
fulfilling. It's so true, isn't it?
I think. Yeah, I mean that whole thing
about comparison is the thief of joy is like a real thing.
You you know if and also if you have no context about how hard
people have worked. It's that fame.
I don't I'm sure you've seen that diagram was like that
iceberg and it's like shows the tip of it is like really all
this like insane. Yeah, you had to build to get to
that place and all the sort of psychological work and the like
the the graft and the the hustle that has to go into it is I
think that for me has been a bit of a surprise, but.
I don't know. I like, I like the, I like the
challenge of it. I think that's The thing is like
when you're doing a business and you're trying to build it, it's
I think the, the biggest realization I think I've come to
in the last, probably last few months is that you know, there
is no destination. Like yes, there is a purpose,
yes, there is a vision and a mission and all those sort of
things. But when it comes to the
day-to-day, there's no like you. You create goal posts for
yourself, and then the goal posts just keep getting shifted
back further and then you know. So if you don't kind of
celebrate those. Milestones in a sense, you just
end up just pushing the goal posts further and you feel like
you never achieve anything. So I don't know.
I think just take time and you have to kind of work through
them and I don't know. It's quite a ride though, isn't
it? It's an interesting thought with
the goal posts as well, cuz I've struggled with this and I see
other people also. When you keep moving the goal
posts, it's always upwards, right?
Onwards and upwards, yeah. And then once you don't hit the
goal posts or you hit below that or you want to take a step back,
that's all of a sudden like, Oh no, like we're going backwards.
Yeah, that feeling of going backwards is really hard on some
people. Yeah, well, it feels like
failure, right? It feels like you're stagnating
and that and but I think getting comfortable with that is
probably a much. Had a recipe for success in a
sense because you know, you have to have those moments of
downtime. If you're constantly rushing,
you're just never going to, you're just going to burn out.
I mean it's just the way it is. I mean it's like scientifically
proven. You're just going to burn out.
So I think, but I I guess the the stagnicity thing I think is
all about reframing. If you think of it as just just
standing still, then you think of it as failure.
You think it is you're not moving anywhere forward.
But if you actually take it as a pause.
Then it's just like an exhale, isn't it?
It's like, okay, this is what we're doing next.
But I'm just gonna step back a little bit and I'm gonna re
change my job role. I'm gonna re change how I work
with clients or whatever so that I don't feel so stretched.
Yeah, it's not. I don't know.
It's challenged because it all is.
Yeah. And I'm thinking back really the
moments where I've done that is why I'm talking to someone,
because I feel like if I'm in my day-to-day routine, and
especially doing COVID, like if you're doing the same thing more
so over and over, you're progressing, you're moving, you
don't really take the time to stand still and reflect and be
like, do I like this? Do I like the direction?
Yeah. Do we need to move?
But that's what COVID did for so many of us and made us stop and
think, Is this really what I want to be doing with my life?
Yeah, Forced. Forced.
Forcibly. Yeah, yeah.
Which I mean. COVID, as awful it as it was for
many people, it was a really a great opportunity to reset, you
know? And I mean, I was one of those
people. I was just like, what am I
doing? This is a nightmare.
So it was, it was really, it was a good time to kind of reflect
on what mattered to me and what mattered to my family and to my
my career. And yeah, and I think.
Yeah, it was. It was a collective great pause
and I think it was really traumatic looking back then.
Like what? What changes did you make that
are still in effect? Ooh, that's a good question.
Well, I mean the first thing. Well, because the Pandemic hit
right when I turned 40. And so I think there's something
about midlife where you're like, Oh my God, what am I doing with
my life? And So what I gifted myself for
my 40th birthday was a business coach because.
Or more of a life coach, actually because I was unsure
what I wanted to do with my life.
I was unsure what I wanted to do with my career and the.
The thing that he worked with me on was to define my values
really clearly. And so those I think are the
things that have stuck. So that makes it it makes it a
challenge in some ways because it means you have to learn how
to say no to things that don't fall within those values.
But then does make things a lot easier because you know that if
you're in those values, then you're doing the things that you
should be doing. So those are things that I've
that's stuck through. Could you share a few of those
values like I'm interested? Yeah.
So, I mean, yeah, so growth is one of my key core values.
I think that it doesn't necessarily mean in terms of
like business growth, it means in terms of self development and
learning and changing and growing and all that in that
sort of sense integrity which is basically a throwing word which
nobody thinks. Means anything anymore, but to
me it's it's really important. I'm like a terrible liar.
I can't lie for the sake of it. I'm terrible at those things, so
I think that's a beautiful thing.
Yeah, I have that as well. I recognize that.
Right. So it's like I think when you're
when you're it's, it's a it's, but I think integrity also can
kind of mean about like being really honest with yourself
about what you're doing and being I think really.
Posing those hard questions at yourself about if what you're
doing is actually something that has integrity, Like if you're,
you know, sacrificing your mental health for a client
that's probably not living in integrity, that's probably being
dishonest with yourself about what you can actually do and
actually not giving them probably an honest service about
what you can do. And contribution is my other
one. So if I'm don't feel like I'm
contributing to somebody or to to someone's business or to.
Someone's own development? I feel very much like I'm not.
It's like unfulfilled. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, exactly. I can see that.
Yeah, so it's definitely not meant to be a people pleasing
element or a sacrificial thing, but if I'm working with people
and. I just feel like we're not
moving fast enough, or I feel like I can't give anymore or I
feel like it's not working as well.
It's. I feel very disappointed cuz I
feel like I want to keep contributing to their
development and keep pushing them forward because I see it
as, I mean as a blending of two creative pursuits, really.
So if I'm not contributing, it kind of feels like I'm.
It feels like I'm failing. Yeah, yeah.
Interesting. How did you learn like that
about yourself? Because when everyone talks
about values and whenever someone sits across from me and
talks about their values, yeah, I'm like, man, I try to reflect
and be like, I really like that, like that.
I can recognize myself in that. But then I'm like, OK, which
ones? Because there's so many things
that I'm like, OK, this, Yeah. So I hold dear to heart,
basically. Yeah.
I need to have an understanding before I can act.
Basically. Yeah, I love contributing.
I love personal development as well.
But then which ones are my values?
Yeah, like, really, at my core. Well, there, I mean there's you
can there's lots of ways to do it.
I think that there's if you look online and look for a list of
core values, I mean Brennan Brown has a great section in her
books about I think it's there to lead.
She has a whole list of values that's there and you can add
words that sort of matter to you as well.
But the idea is, is that you you.
It's a really a process of elimination and really being
hard on, like hard on it and really being really strict with
what? Really matters and what you
could It doesn't mean that those other values don't happen.
It doesn't mean that, you know, kindness is not one of my values
because it's not one of my core values.
It just means that it's not something that's a deal breaker
for me. So what you do is you you have
your list and then you just you you.
Well, my coach, the way he he taught it to me was he just had
me write down everything on the list that resonated.
And then of those, I don't know if say if there was.
I don't know 40 words that he had written down.
I say maybe I chose 15. And then he said, oh, you know,
you have to choose five. Yeah, prioritize.
Yeah, Which one is that? Which one's that?
And, you know, can I get, you know, can I let that one go?
And then he said, choose three. And so and actually I chose one
which he pushed back on and he was he said you know I don't
think this is actually it. OK.
Which I thought was interesting because I think you know
sometimes you can't really tell someone what their values are.
But he'd gone through this process with me of getting to
know me and knowing my personality that he said I this.
I think it's it's not it. And so we kind of went back
through it a bit and then we we narrowed it down to those three
and and when we did it, it was just like a light went off
because. I just thought that makes so
much more sense why I'm unhappy at work or why some
relationships are frustrating to me because these elements are
missing and so it just makes it a lot clearer.
Yeah, very. Yeah, I could do it for you
sometimes. If you want to do it.
Yeah, I think it would be. I mean, I love learning about
myself. Yeah.
And part of the reasons why I love these conversations is also
it makes me reflective. You know, sometimes you think
you know something or you think you think a certain way.
Yeah. And then you have a discussion.
You're like, this is actually what comes out.
And what I actually think while you're saying it.
I have that a lot. And then I love listening back
to it. I love learning more So about
myself and core values is always like Brendan Brown is a name
I've heard before. Also.
Previous guest. He's a life coach and he talked
about kind of his method, yeah. And he didn't lay out kind of
the steps involved, but I'm pretty sure he does something
similar when it comes to defining more values for people
he helps. Yeah, I think there's many ways
I think of going about it. There's like questions that you
can ask people and you can you can.
Have them write down what matters to them, right.
And without having a sort of a set of words that they can play
off of. But I I have always found that
especially because I work with so many creative people that
they need that friction point. They need something to brush up
against in order to know what they know, what they don't want,
but they they don't know what they want.
So you you have to kind of show them some ideas and say oh what
do you think of these things? And then usually they can sort
of start pulling what actually matters to them out.
And I've added them AdWords to that because, you know, maybe
something was. Something that's core to them
wasn't there, and that's fine too.
It doesn't, it's, you know, it's not rigid.
I think The thing is, is really about just creating some
foundational elements that you work against and then and then
that just gives you a lot, a lot more freedom when it comes to
making choices because you can kind of see what works and what
doesn't. Yeah.
So you just see. Yeah, let's let's do the
exercise somewhere later. I think it could be fun.
I'll send it to you. We can do it.
Sounds fun, yeah. I want to zoom into kind of the
self development part and how I see it.
It has two axes, right? Self development for other
people and self development for yourself.
Yeah. What do you do starting off with
kind of self development for yourself?
Do you have a method or a process?
Or no, I mean, I'm just, I'm a I'm a.
Constant reader. I read all the time.
In fact, I told my husband the other day that I had to stop
reading business books because I'm becoming boring.
Like I have to stop doing this. And I'm also getting to the
point now where I'm reading stuff and it's starting to loop.
There was a lot of the the ideas are the same.
Yeah. And and and interestingly, even
when it comes to say you know Brendan Brown, who's talking
about, you know, emotions and and vulnerability and all these
sorts of things. The things she talks about comes
up in Jim Collins or in Ray Dalio or anything like that.
So the the ideas are in, the principles are all there.
So that's kind of cool. But I think, yeah, it means I
need to stop kind of reading about it and start acting and,
you know, implying it to different things.
But So what was the other question you asked?
What what are some of the, the personal growth things?
Oh, I mean, you know, you know, exercising, eating well.
Psychology, you know, I see a therapist every week because
it's absolutely essential to my mental health to just learn more
about myself. And I mean, I'm originally, I'm
originally from America, so I think that kind of falls into
that American category of being like into psychology.
But I think more and more now. People are much more conscious
about their mental health and it's not anything to be ashamed
of. The best thing in the world, I
think is a great thing, Yeah. Yeah.
That people are becoming more aware and actively, Yeah, yeah.
Because I think, I think that's The thing is you can only be
good at what you do when you start understanding yourself
more. I really believe that.
And so that's how I work with people.
A lot is trying to help them understand who they are within
their framework of their business so that they can they
can be more, you know. Mindful about how they're
showing up and not sort of going through it blindly and thinking
things out, thinking that everything's just happening to
them, that they actually can play a part and be proactive in
it. So yeah, it's a big deal.
Yeah. Yeah, I love it.
I found you actually through ADP list because you're your mentor
on there. Yeah, I'm because I also had
other people that I found through there.
There's no secret. That I thought that was amazing.
Yeah, cuz I just did that on a whim and I had no idea that
someone would be stocking. It was me trying to find people.
Yeah, but I asked this to everyone that I've had on since.
Yeah. Because I'm curious what people
come to you with, right. They see your profile online.
They know kind of what you're good at and your job history.
Yeah. Or what you put out there for
them to see. Yeah.
What challenges do they bring to you kind of to work on?
It can vary. I think we talked about this
before, but yeah, they they, some people wanted me to look at
their LinkedIn profile. Some people wanted me to look at
their online portfolio. Some just wanted to hear my
story, which I thought was a little disarming because, you
know. Everyone thinks their story is
really boring, right? But I think that the the way
that the the woman explained it to me when she wanted to know
was it's just useful to know someone who's gone on a little
bit further and seen their path. And that maybe that if it's
meandering, it's not actually going to end up at a place where
like in a basement somewhere that actually you can have, you
can have a really varied career and have really diverse
experiences and actually end up, you know, being focused on
something or you know, that kind of thing, so.
I I think some what's interesting is that because I
have no like UX or UA understanding I I'm you know
I've never worked I work in product or architecture and
interior design that mainly in that arena.
And the people who are doing UX design and UA and they they come
to me and like what do you think of My Portfolio?
And it's interesting because you know, I'm very upfront saying,
you know, I have no idea what the people that you're trying to
show this to are looking for, but.
From a principal's point of view, there's these certain
elements that I that I see. Or one woman was just taking
advice from everybody about what they liked and what they didn't
like about a portfolio and trying to change it and it
didn't reflect her whatsoever. It's like stop doing that.
It's like they're not hiring all these other people.
And I was like, everyone's got an opinion.
So what's your opinion? What do you think about it?
So that's what's been interesting.
And also, I think, I mean, it makes me feel ancient to say
this, but so many people are coming saying, oh, I don't think
I've got enough time to do everything I want to do.
You know, they're in their sort of mid to late 20s, early 30s
and I'm like, oh, you got. Tons of time, don't worry as far
as I know. I think you've got lots of time.
So I think there's also that reassurance as well that that
just have patience and just keep working hard and have some focus
and you know also I think. You know we hear a lot about
this old idea of having purpose and like what's my purpose and
like and I think that's the that's a bit of a red herring
for people and they're younger because it I think you have to
have all these experiences And then I think it's I can't
remember Mark Manson I think once said that you know you
don't your purpose isn't like to hit you like a bolt of
lightning. You choose what you want to do
and then you make that your life's purpose.
But I think sometimes you have to have, you have to have more
experiences to actually know what you want to do and actually
how you want to. Push forward in life.
So I'm always like, don't worry about your purpose.
You got time. Give yourself another 15 years,
You'll be fine. Yeah, you'll figure it out.
It would be easy if you just knew it.
And you've always known that. Like, yeah, I talked about this
before. My cousin and I grew up
together. She's two months younger than
me. And she always wanted to be a
dentist. And she from from kids on, like,
she would stand next to the dentist and be like, can I, can
I look? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And she always wanted to do
that. Yeah.
And then through her educational career or journey rather.
Yeah, in the Netherlands, it's like, how do you say that some
people get in to that educational journey?
And stuff, right? Because of the different tracts
of education. Exactly.
Yeah. So she didn't get in year after
year. She didn't get in.
And she got a bachelor's degree in, like, biomedical science.
And still she didn't get in. And then she was like, she's
also Armenian from heritage. She was like, I'm gonna study
dentistry in Armenia. And for five years she's been
there. And just now I saw her actually,
last night. Yeah.
So it's kind of fresh. Yeah.
And she has a degree, and she's going to start being a dentist.
It's brilliant. But from when she was a kid, she
always knew. And I never knew.
I was like, no, I have no clue. I want to do something in
gaming. I know I like computers and
stuff. I love what I do now.
But is this really my purpose? I still don't really know
because I have so many interests.
I think it's sometimes it's maybe too broad, but in any
case, I like it. So I I'm exploring.
I'm always. Going to be exploring.
I I think I might be. Like, I love doing a lot of
things. Yeah.
Like with this podcast, I've loved having these
conversations, meeting new people.
I still think I'm an introvert, so I have to recharge.
Like, I've learned that about myself, yeah.
I like the video editing aspect of it.
I like looking at a video and seeing how it's made together.
Not just the content and the essence, but like the the more
so technical side of it. Let's say.
And I mean on a day-to-day, 95% of the time I'm creating
software. Yeah, we're building an app
right now. I love.
Figuring out what the users actually need.
But we actually can contribute in value first versus the other
thing, and the order of things as well, like it's.
I'm naming them so I might be like a generalist because that's
a lot and I'm not even all the way through.
I think that's. I mean that's the beauty of
being. I'm a generalist as well.
I think that's part like that ties in with my ability.
Like I just love learning about loads of different things and I
think that's OK too. I just I think I think when it
comes to the amount of things that you're interested in I
think that's the that's the important part is just keeping
curiosity about what you're doing.
If you can stay curious about everything you're doing that's
fine. Like that's enough.
You know and I think you know there's not I don't think
purpose is like I'm I don't know I'm going to I don't know I want
to make the world a better place which is like the the worst one
right. But but you know if that's your
purpose it might take different forms, right.
And you know, for you it could be this, this, this route, it
could be that kind of thing. So I think, yeah, I think that
sounds great, Keep developing, keep learning.
Yeah, I feel like I like this journey that I'm on.
I like it a lot. But I also feel like looking
from my perspective, I don't really have another option.
Like I have to explore. Yeah, to kind of figure it out.
Yeah, exactly. And I might not ever find it.
If you were asked me 10 years ago, I would have said by then I
would have find it and I'm going to be full focused and I'm going
to blaze through and stuff like that.
And I'm doing that on certain aspects.
But yeah, it's different. It's still kind of wide and I
think that's fine. Yeah, it is fine.
It's absolutely fine. I mean the, I think the choice
to focus, I mean that's what they say about niching, right?
Everyone says oh, niche is like too limited.
But actually when you niche it's a choice, right?
It's like this is what I'm going to work in, but actually it
opens things much wider. And I think that's the same kind
of way of thinking about it is is purpose, is is the thing that
you want to do. But it could just end up being
very wide and what you end up getting to sort of interact
with. So yeah, I'm all for as much
experience as possible. I'm a growth, right?
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
I'm wondering how you got to a point where you're working with
creative entrepreneurs more so on a day-to-day, week to week
kind of basis. Could you lay out kind of that
journey that led to that? The journey?
Well, as I said, it's a bit meandering, but I well, my, my
education, I have a master's in history of art, so I've always
been in a kind of a creative bent, shall we say.
Yeah. But when I left school, I went
and worked in an art gallery and, you know, I think I'm too
much of A romantic about the arts and making it commercial,
which is just odd considering what I do now.
But at the time, I was like, oh, it's just it's.
Just leave it. I just can't sell this beautiful
Picasso. I can't do it so.
So I end up going into working into architecture.
I took a job as a PA in a in a high end residential design
studio in West London and they didn't need a PA they needed
someone to run their office and run their business.
And so over the those five years I built to help my with my
colleagues of course help them build a business from I think I
was employed 12 and when I left they were 55.
So it's a really it was a great experience and how to
operationally to build a design business and then I kind of I
would I would left to work for a couple other different design
studios and then kind of burned out working with designers.
No offense any designers listening but I kind of burned
out a bit And so I ended up working in food a bit because
I'm very passionate about food, got into marketing a little bit
worked in culture and kind of had this really random kind of
experiences. But the the interesting part of
that is that in every instance, even if I was trying to do
something more creative like food writing or you know,
cultural tours, any of those things, I always gravitated to
the management of the business side of these things.
I was always much more interested in like the the
nuances of how the business ran. And so in my last role, I was a
commercial director of it, like of a design studio in London,
and that was the best opportunity to help build a
brand with them. So it's like the first
experience was really about operational understanding and
then the last one was more about how you build a brand and how
you build a business. And so that was the two of those
combined have made kind of an interesting meatball I guess of
experience because the it's not just the the creative side of
things, not just how you talk about your business, it's also
how it runs operationally that how it all works together.
So when I when I decided to leave my company in the
pandemic, I really had no idea what I was going to do.
I I I knew I probably couldn't go back and work in a design
studio because I think what I realized is that I think my
nature is to take things on as my own.
I think it was my nature to take things on as my own.
Yeah, but in the end, it's not mine because I'm working with my
business partners. I'm working with my bosses when
I was younger and things like that.
And ultimately it's down to them because they're the ones who are
doing the product, right. And so I realized that if I go
into another design studio, I'll probably carrying as much as I
do and it's just not going to be from for me ultimately in the
end. So I had friends and colleagues
be like, you know, if you ever decide to consult, you should
get into that. No one wants to hear what I have
to say. I'm not that interesting, I
don't know that much and blah blah, blah.
And then but I kind of I what I ended up doing, which I didn't
realize at the time was really a very sort of broad value
proposition. I I end up speaking to a bunch
of people in my industry that I knew and I said I'm kind of
thinking about this thing, would this be of interest And the
response, it was all really positive there.
You know, there's not really a lot of business consulting
specifically for creatives. I think that generally it kind
of seems to fall out of the sphere of business and that
because I think it's because the creative it becomes the focus as
opposed to say if you're working in aviation or medicine or any
of those sort of things, it's more a bit about consulting
those things. So I think, yeah, So I just
decided to kind of fit my toe in and then here we are three years
later. Still good, still good, loving
it. A really great set of clients.
And I think that was interesting is because I'd always gone from
a role of a doer. I had to sort of really shift
who I was within my own business into being more of a like a
thinker sort of. And that's been a real challenge
because I'm so used to just getting in and doing stuff.
But actually if you're going to run a business, you have to be
the one who's actually thinking about where things go and where
they need to be next. And that's been a challenge to
kind of get off the day-to-day, some of the day-to-day tools and
things like that. So yeah, so that's kind of a
long winded answer to your question, but yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
So that's where we are now. So yeah, you.
Mentioned you kind of along the journey.
Burned out with working with designers.
That kind of stuck with me. Why?
Why did that happen in the 1st
place? I I think because it felt in a
lot of ways that the people I was working with, it was trying
to push a rock up a hill. I think because what I've also
come to understand with many creatives, it's the creative
output is the most important thing, which I completely get.
That's the right again, that's the essence.
I get that, but what happens is they do it at the sake of
everything else and so it became frustrating to kind of try and
get people to charge more or to to think strategically about the
business, to have a vision for it.
To make it sustainable, make it sustainable.
And I think I just got really tired of trying to sort of
pushed them along the way. I wanted people who were willing
to come along the side with me as opposed to just dragging
them. And there's some sort of
Sisyphean. Yeah.
You don't want to persuade them to do that.
Yeah, right. So I think that's been, yeah,
that was. I had a moment where I was like,
you know what, I'm done with design.
I'm gonna go work in food because I love food.
I'm gonna go do that. But what I found is the
challenges are the same across the board.
So I thought it was a design thing, but it's not.
It's just anyone who's doing anything creative.
I think that's the way how it's worked out.
Yeah, The funny thing is when we spoke before the show, we
aligned because I see the same from the software side.
When someone creates a piece of software, it's not gonna.
Be a business all of a sudden? No.
It's going to be part of a business.
Yeah. And it can be the essence, Yeah.
But still everything around it still needs to be done.
Yeah. And I feel like I want to go
more towards also owning something that is mine, creating
something from the ground up that you're having.
Ownership has always been a big thing for me.
I want to get to a point where I.
I feel more comfortable doing that, and maybe I'm never going
to get comfortable at some point I'm but you'll never be
prepared. Exactly.
Like I feel like more and more I'm never going to be
comfortable prepared in any case.
Yeah, but I want to decrease that risk also for myself, sure.
But at the end of the day, I feel like the software I can do,
I can figure out an idea, hone it and figure out how to build
this thing for the customers. But then the business side
around it, how to make a sustainable?
And have it have longevity, Yeah, that I don't have down
yet. That's where kind of the
insecurities come from. I mean, that's normal, right?
I think. And I think The thing is, it's
the least sexy bit. Right.
Yeah, yeah, systems and processes are not sexy.
No one cares about that stuff. But actually, it's the thing
that will help you scale. It will help.
Those things will help, will actually build your business.
If you can't get processes down, it's it you're just going to end
up creating a, you know, something that's built really
organically. But then you know, I always kind
of compared to, you know, you have a little hole in the wall.
You just patch over that one and then the hole over there, you
patch over that one and then what you end up having is this
sort of slightly weak foundation that doesn't actually seem to
work. So you know, I mean, but this is
The thing is that even someone who knows this, you know, I've
made, I make mistakes like this all the time.
I mean when I I hired someone this year who has been an
absolute gem for my business and she is, she is about process and
systems and the first thing she did was bring in systems into
how we as a company work and it you know for you know and it's
just one you can kind of just go for it and do things how you
want it to do. But just that simple fact of
doing that has made us better, has made us more efficient, and
I set us up for more growth in the future as well.
So you know, doing it as early as you can, it's not sexy.
I mean, we find it sexy because although this is what.
We do, but yeah. Yeah, for people who are super
creative, it's not the sexiest bit, but it is the thing that
will actually create the the, the pillars that you can you can
sort of launch from. Yeah.
So yeah, but you know, no one's perfect.
We all make mistakes and miss these things, yeah.
In in helping people or even with your own business, have you
seen kind of patterns in usually what is not in place and what
can really help and propel them? With that sustainability part of
the business, yeah, yeah, I think the systems is a big one,
as I said. What do you mean by that?
Well, so say for example how you, how you program work, how
do you resource work, how do you quantify that work, having some
sort of consistent metrics from which to price that work.
All those sorts of things seem to be more more gut driven I
think when you're earlier in your business.
But I think when you start getting into more processes, you
start creating sort of structures around how you, what
your fees are. You start creating more
structures around how you capture your time, the process
for clients and how they kind of interact with your company from
initial inquiry to hand over to the project.
You know those kind of things. You create standardization
across those things. Doesn't mean that it's not
creative. It doesn't mean it's not.
You don't get to do anything fun in that, but it just creates
anchors along the way so that the process becomes more
efficient and more effective. I think for your people to
deliver, yeah, I think the systems is a big one.
I think tools for communication, making sure that people
understand each other. And I also think one of the
other things that's missing is a lot of soft skills.
I think that's not something that's easily you don't learn
that in art school or design school, like you know, you don't
learn it anywhere. So I think you just learn it in
the school of life. And I think sometimes when you
are in, I think particularly if you're a creative and you're in
a position of leadership, it's very uncomfortable to be in that
position and have to have those soft skills aside from the hard
skills that actually help you lead a business.
So that's a challenge. More challenging 1 to to to I
don't know. Yeah, I can't really because you
can't really go into a business and be like here you go, here
your soft skills. But it's, you know, getting the
awareness around them and things like that is is useful.
What What part of the soft skills like?
Is it having the communication be more so clear that everyone
understands each other? Or or what part will you say is
usually or can be worked on more rather?
Oh, that's a good question. I think communication is a big
one. I kind of feel like it's the
one, but in addition to that, how to be more effective, how to
kind of take yourself from doing things that are urgent and doing
more important things, being able to prioritize.
I could see that one being very difficult.
Yeah, that's really hard. Because everything is going to
be on the plate, yeah. Yeah.
But I used to pick, yeah. So I guess that's The thing is
that if you're if you're if you know that actually as we talked
about earlier, the goal post, if the goal posts are just going to
keep moving, those urgent things are just going to keep moving,
right. They're just going to keep
going. So it's I think it's about
understanding that those things are always going to be there but
making time to set aside for the important things that need to be
done. And and that is I think one of
the hardest things especially when I think if you were a
creative and you want to, you want to design a building or you
want to design furniture, that's the thing you love doing.
You don't want to set aside time to think about, I don't know,
the next business plan for the next five years.
It's, I mean it's important to do that, but kind of like oh,
but I want to just go design this chair.
But it's really interesting client brief and I'm like, yeah,
I get that, I completely get that.
So when we work with people, we're very conscious of the
creative part. We really want to protect that
because that's the thing that's the essence is to say it's like
the heart of the company. So, you know, creating
infrastructure around that so that they can keep their
creativity intact is not, I hear, a lot.
I just managed. Now I'm not creative anymore.
And I think that's so sad because first of all, it sees it
as the only creative output is the doing of the, yeah.
This part, this part and actually not the building of the
business, is actually a creative part, but that's a harder one to
sell. I think that's fine for me.
But I think they, you know, if that's the case, then creating
some structure for them to actually have that opportunity
to do more creative things. And that may mean, you know,
hiring different people in to do a different job or or just take
on some of their roles that they really aren't great at but they
don't like, you know, those kind of things.
So, yeah, yeah, it's it's a multifaceted, of course.
Yeah, I was thinking back when you when you touched up on
priority. And I don't know how I would
solve that for myself, cuz I always have a lot on my plate
and what I postpone is the things I genuinely don't like or
don't look forward to. Yeah, And those get pushed back.
Yeah, as much as possible sometimes.
Yeah. To my own demise sometimes.
Are they important? Though sometimes I think so, and
I objectively need to look at them and judge if they're
important, yeah. But still, with my subjective
mind, I'm like, they're not important right now.
So you said to your demise. So what happens then?
Sometimes I'm very late with the things I think I could have done
earlier, or I postponed things that I should have done earlier.
Basically, I can give you the most simple example.
I don't like finding people as guests for the podcast.
So I postponed that. I like having the integral.
I like having the conversations, right.
Everything before that. Looking at profiles and seeing
what's out there. Seeing if someone is a good
speaker even. Yeah.
Or setting up the agenda and being like, OK then and then we
meet stuff like that, Yeah. It doesn't give me energy at
all. To the point where sometimes
I've had zero episodes and I was like, yeah, next week I need to
record, but I don't have anyone. And now we need to do this.
Otherwise, like my my continuation and the thing I
value continuity of the episodes is gonna be.
In danger because of that, Yeah. And I've always managed, but
then sometimes I'm like, maybe I might not be so lucky and then
I'm not going to manage. Yeah, I don't.
I I. Don't know how to solve that
because I feel like if I if I'm running a business, I'm going to
have similar things. Yeah, things that are going to
be important and that I'm going to do.
Maybe it's my personality also that I'm going to postpone to
the last minute because it doesn't give me fulfillment.
And I'm going to do the things I like before that because it's
going to give me fulfillment. I think that's everyone is this
way. I mean I'll give you an example
hand on heart. I got really comfortable at the
beginning of this year and didn't do any marketing.
I completely burned out on marketing.
I was like oh, I'm fine. I've got all these clients, it's
fine. And I completely dropped the
ball on that, right. And then you know clients
naturally phase out their their, their projects going hold or
whatever and then all of a sudden I'm looking at a
financial gap and I think. Oh God, like what was?
I think, you know, it was important.
I should have been doing that marketing the whole time, but I
don't like doing it. So I'm like, well, I don't want
to do it. So I just focused on the other
stuff that the things I do like, but that's The thing is I think
it's really easy to to do that I think and I think but I think
being mindful of that and even just you know someone I read, I
can't remember who said it, but someone was once said, you know
just do one thing a day for marketing one, do one thing a
day for sales and that's enough because it's a kind of compound
benefit of these of these. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
So if you can do that, then it kind of feels like it's less
sold destroying because it's not like, you know, you're spending
all your Fridays dedicated to marketing or whatever.
But yeah, I mean, there will always be things in your job,
regardless if it's your company or you're working for someone
that you don't like doing. And I I think we have this
mindset that our job should be like this amazing, fulfilling
thing, but it's it's just not the case.
Not 100%, no, no, no. I mean, what what life is this
way, right? You know, it's like we all have
to do. Yeah, exactly.
So I guess this, yeah, it's, I think it's.
But I guess the other part of it I think could be that if there's
things that you can outsource, outsource them, if you could
afford to do it, do it in the beginning.
It's hard because, you know, money's tight and it's stressful
and you know, you kind of still need to understand what your
business is. So you do need to do all the
things, but once you get a few years in, you just start kind
of. Yeah, you know, this part is
down. Yeah, you know, you get yourself
a PA who can go out and, like, still forget.
I see some other people have that like like I need.
I wish I had that. Yeah.
But I'm glad you said it's not.
It's never going to be solved problem.
I'm just going to find more tools in my back to kind of
manage them. Yeah, because I do when I, when
I do do it, let's say, and when I, when I've done a great job of
the things I don't like, that is very fulfilling.
But then still I will postpone it and finding a habit.
And finding something that works for me, that is like
incrementally and it's gonna compound.
I think that's a very good way of looking at it.
Yeah. Yeah.
And also I think seeing about the value of your time versus
the value of someone else's time to do these things.
Someone once said to me if someone else can be doing what
you're doing, they should be doing it.
Yeah. And I'm like, that's such an
amazing insight. That's a good quote.
Yeah. But only I could.
No, no, no, someone else could do this.
Like I don't need to be doing this and but I think that's a
hard thing too, is letting go. And you know, that's a whole
other sort of kettle of fish. But.
How is that for you then? Because you said you, you were
reading in the role of a doer, like you would just jump in and
and do the thing. Yeah.
And now you have to step back and be more of an advisory.
Yeah, yeah. It's been excruciating.
Excruciating. No, it's fine.
I mean, I think. I I what I I think well it's
it's an interesting one because it's there is a friction point
there because I think I'm more comfortable doing the doing so I
default to doing that. Yeah, but the, the thinking and
the, you know, this or, you know, selling the business
itself is much more uncomfortable for me.
So it's, you know, really trying to put myself out there, you
know, and having to be like, oh God, I don't want to do this,
but you've been doing it and, you know, and it becomes easier.
It's like a muscle memory. You get used to doing it.
But Oh yeah, I I. Did you find yourself
micromanaging as well when you saw other people doing kind of
where your comfort would lie? No, I am not a micromanager.
I actually go the other direction.
Yeah, I I'm cuz I think my way of learning has always been just
to do right? So when I was working in any
design studios, they weren't gonna give me any instruction of
what they needed. I just started looking for stuff
to do and finding things and you know, trying to make you doing
it because I was like, well, this needs to be done.
So I'm just going to do it. So I have this approach with
people that if you give them the end result that you want,
they'll find a way to get to it. So with Cat, who is my
colleague, you know, she's much more, she needs to have more
specifics about these sort of things.
She wants to know what what we're doing, whereas I'm just
like, oh, just make a make a press report for me.
What do you? Want what do you want?
Yeah you figure it out. But I I so that's been, you know
for me like that's the kind of the shift is that if someone
said to me just do a press report, I'd think okay I'd
research it figured out how to do it and da da da, da.
But for her, she wants to know exactly what I'm looking for.
Yeah. And I think that's completely
fair enough. So that's been the kind of the
switch as well as, as when it comes to the being, the doing
versus the thinking. Because I can think of what I'm
actually looking for in the end and then I can give it to her
and say, what do you think you wanna do it?
And then we work on it a bit together and I'll help guide her
and things like that. But micromanagement, I've been
micromanaged. It's the worst thing in the
world. I'm glad you're aware of that,
yeah. Cuz I know about it, but then
still when I'm really good at something and I know how to do
it and I give that to someone else, I would still find myself
mean. Like what color are they gonna
do it right? You want me to jump back in and
like, is these things? These things are not.
Yeah. And giving feedback, Yeah.
But then I'm like, OK, this is what I'm doing.
Like, at that realization, it's like, I have to, like, go, Yeah,
I trust it's hard. It's really hard.
Yeah. Because it's, you know, it's
your baby. It's really important.
I mean, I was saying to you earlier, I just got back from
holiday yesterday and I was away for three weeks, which I've
never done. Yeah.
And. Completely like.
No laptop, no phone. Well, for the well, I had to.
I had a big bit of work. I had to push out before I could
really settle down. But I think I I really made a
conscious effort to to to do that.
Actually Kat told me to stop working.
Of course, yeah. I'm like, oh, I'll just how you
doing? But I think I but doing that was
was sort of a lesson that kind of ability to let go.
You know, we had discussed what we needed to do this month
whilst I was going to be away. She was fine as far as I know
getting on with it. And so I just kind of had to let
it go. So.
So I I think if you, if you want to take control of everything
all the time, you're going to have to, you're never going to
have any time off. You're always going to be
worrying about stuff. And I, you know, personally for
me, I just, I don't want to have that kind of life where I'm kind
of overseeing everything all the time.
I'm much more happier to let people.
I've, I've set the vision for her.
I know what she she knows what I want her to do.
So I'm like and she's really capable.
So yeah, go for it. And then and then, you know, my
thing is, is that nothing can't be fixed.
If I'm not happy with it, we can tweak it.
It's no problem. I think, you know, the and she's
brought ideas that I hadn't even thought of.
So I mean those are kind of, that's the best part.
That's the best part. I think so.
So if you're always kind of like holding it really tight, you
don't leave any space for anyone to sort of insert anything new.
So yeah. I mean, that's always been a big
thing for me is. I don't like it when someone
gives me a task. Like, I want to understand what
we're doing. Yeah.
And then I can think of what needs to be done.
Yeah. Or we can have a discussion.
Yeah. And the interesting thing is if
I think we should do something else versus the task that I'm
given, yeah, Then I'm gonna have a discussion.
Right. It's always been like that.
So when they offered you this to do this podcast, they say we
want you to do it this way. No, never.
Right. No, no, no.
They were like could do podcasts.
Exactly. I'm looking for a host and I'll
facilitate whatever you need. I was like, done.
Yeah, deal. I have a vision.
I want this and this. These are my requirements.
Yeah, that's the only way, Yeah, completely, yeah.
And I'm assuming everyone's really happy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, I hope so.
The fuck is doing great, I think.
Yeah, but The funny thing is, like, I've been in a role and my
product owner would say, OK, we need to, we need to do these and
these things because of XYZ. And I was like, well, XYZ
doesn't make sense. So we shouldn't do this in the
1st place. And to kind of keep you short,
they they looked at a different colleague and they were like,
can we do this? Well, I just had the
conversation that we shouldn't do this.
And I was like, what's going on here?
Like I was feeling, I was feeling ignored.
Yeah. So I had the conversation again
and he was like, well, I'm feeling pressure and we need to
do this, yeah. And then I was like, okay.
I kind of overstepped maybe my boundaries, but I went to
someone else that would listen and we kind of made it aware
that this thing was happening and this was kind of the root
cause. And we solved it at the end of
the day, yeah. And I felt like okay.
I mean, if someone were to give me the time and really try and
understand where I'm coming from, then I wouldn't have had
to go to the director and get stuff done that way.
Yeah, but I felt like. The thing I really didn't want
to build it basically. Like, I'm always in the builder
role as a software engineer, right?
And if I don't stand behind what I'm building, if I think my
solution doesn't make sense because someone else is doing
something that doesn't make sense, yeah, then I'll stop with
what they're doing so I don't have to build this right.
Yeah. And that's, it's always been a
thing. I think that might be then in
line with kind of my core values.
Yeah, there's something, yeah, there's definitely something
there. I think that's kind of when you
start knowing that is because if you, I've had clients before who
if they don't want to do something, they literally will
not do it. Yeah.
And it's like it's. Like, principally, yeah, they
just can't do it. And I think great.
But then you also have to do other things that make sure that
you can do it or you don't. Have to do it.
Yeah, exactly. But I think, yeah, the that
desire to you have to stand by what your your work, I think
that's fundamental whether or not you're in a business or
running your own thing like you have to believe in what you're
doing. Yeah.
So yeah, yeah, I think that's definitely a core value issue.
I think so. We'll find out, yeah, yeah, for
sure. One of the one of the last
thoughts I had because I think this is in line with people that
kind of want to create their own business both from the software
side and the creative side is when do you really introduce
kind of. Processes and more so rigidness,
because I feel like okay. If I'm gonna start a business,
I'm really gonna play around with a piece of software.
I think a creative entrepreneur would kind of do the same with
whatever they're doing. And then at a point they're
gonna come. Then they're gonna come to a
point where they want things to scale or they wanna outsource
whatever they're doing. Because of their time.
They'd be more mindful of this business side.
Is that then when they want to introduce more processes or how
do you do that along the way and how do you do that gradually?
Because you're never gonna go from zero to 100%, I feel like,
no. Yeah.
I think your business goes through many iterations,
especially in the beginning, more so in the beginning, Yeah,
I think I think there's there's some real merit in I think
process is great even if you can start even in sort of basic
processes in the beginning like time sheets and good billing and
understanding your prices and things like that.
But the structure and the standardization, how the process
of operating goes, I think takes a bit more time cuz I think you
have to really understand what your product is 1st and.
Would you say that's kind of the first phase of your business?
Yeah, I think so. In my experience working with
designers, they start out doing the thing, right.
So they build buildings, they build restaurants, they do
whatever they do. But they it takes probably four
or five years before they start thinking about the
standardization of how they're doing things and.
That's longer than I thought. Well, that's there's other
factors that play here, but I think that's what I've seen is
sort of that kind of point where they start thinking oh actually
maybe we should, we should standardize how we do things.
And then at that point then it starts thinking about because
you, I think you're trying to figure out what you're actually
your product is right. It ties into the brand which
what are you trying to sell, right.
So creating, but being able to create those systems as soon as
you possibly can when you have a really clear product that is
when you can start doing it I think.
But I think getting your baseline OPS stuff in the very,
very beginning is super important and very few people do
that. And I think that, you know, most
people just hire an accountant, which is good and wing it from
there on, right. That and if you can find, you
know, if you can create a system for calculating your time for
thinking about your resourcing, things like that in early, early
stages, then I think you're much more set up for success when it
comes to the operational side of things further down the line.
Yeah. And I mean you know everyone
will get it wrong. We all get it wrong, you know
and I guess the idea is and you kind of just try and course
correct as you're going. But if you if you start with the
intent, I think then that's sets you up for for greater success
in the future. Yeah, I like that a lot.
Yeah, I've seen like right now I'm working at CBXC consultancy
company and through there I joined kind of a startup kind of
ish. It was already along its way for
about two or three years, but then I saw kind of really the
early phases of the business. And I don't know why, but this
person had so many like standard processes in place that I was
like, OK, if we ever need these, then we already have it.
Like we need certain certifications for something
with our security and we have a default audit trail.
We have these things in place like they already thought.
So far ahead, Yeah, that from the beginning we had certain
processes in place that I was like, OK, this, this is really
handy, this is good to have. Yeah.
When it comes to documentation communication, yeah, for
onboarding was super easy. Offboarding was already in
place, so people forget it. Offboarding also it's important.
Oh, really important. Yeah, exactly.
So I was like, OK, this is and I've been in bigger companies
where that's not even in place that I'm like, OK, in this group
of like 10-12 people we have it, yeah.
And then this organization of like 3, four, 500 people.
That off boarding might not even be in place and I might still
have that. Like it's ridiculous.
I know. Yeah, I I mean hearing that is
music to my ears. I mean I think.
But again I think The thing is really hard when you're.
I mean I and I can detest to this that when you're in it,
you're just kind of in it in the very beginning.
So it's just all the things coming at you.
It's the most dynamic thing you you're probably going to ever
experience in the sense because there's all these moving parts.
You weren't responsible for everything.
You have to wear a billion different hats and then I think,
but if you can think about the structures in the future that
yeah, that that'll set you up for a great, Yeah, you'll be
great after that. That's yeah, it's it's the it's
the hardest thing to do. It's not the sexiest things to
do because the sexy thing is to do the creative thing.
But that that is what's going to make you sort of move forward
and scale. Yeah.
I can imagine, and I knowing that and having experienced
that, I'm trying to figure out okay what what do I need to have
in place? And I also know that my opinion
is not the sexiest thing. So I want kind of the minimum
that's going to help me along the way, right?
Because I can do a lot of processes, but I definitely, I
mean, even in software, I don't want processes that's going to
hinder kind of this effectiveness and output in that
way. Yeah.
But I do want the bare minimum because I know that if I look at
the long term of this, I do think I look at long terms.
Even with this podcast, I've always been like, this is the
vision. And I'll get there.
Don't really mind. It's gonna be a long journey.
Yeah. So then I want those processes
to kind of be in place to help me along the way.
Yeah, I yeah, I think as someone who loves process, I think that
the minimum is probably the minimum.
I don't believe in high levels of bureaucracy and anything that
stagnates creative or creativity or innovation at all.
But I think if you can, if you can create those structures
early on, it basically offloads that mental load.
You don't have to think about it anymore because the structures
are there in place and but I think The thing is, is that you
can do the bare minimum for where you are and then when you
grow you have another like. Based on your stage, yeah.
So then the structures become a bit more complex because you've
got more people, you've got different chains of command,
you've got communication things that are so slightly more
complex. So it's each stage has its own
levels of bare minimum systems that are required.
And then I think as you as you get on, I think then it just
becomes I I was saying it's like I think from like 0 to 50 is
this is like a certain type of of sort of kind of structure
that you want to think about and then 50 to like 150 is like
another one and then and then it just becomes much more complex
and and then that's sort of the chains and all that kind of
stuff. So yeah, I think you've got a
ways, I mean I have a ways until I get to 50 people.
So I think building in those processes that allow to get to
that point is kind of where you want to sort of focus I think if
you're at that stage. Yeah, I love that train of
thought. Because thinking back now and
you explain the phases and things need to scale and things
need to involve, yeah, I feel like I've been at like tipping
points in organizations also. I'm like, OK, this is not
working anymore. Either we have too many people
or this is just outdated for what we're doing, right?
And I feel like that might be then a new phase and it might
not even have to do with people. It might have to do with new
people or new cultures kind of onboarding in that way and think
shifting. But yeah, it might then be a new
phase. I think that's an interesting
way of looking at it. I mean the businesses have to
evolve, right. They can't stay the same.
And I I think that is a sort of that is a challenge for many
entrepreneurs because they get to that point where they're
they're it's beyond their skill set, right.
It's beyond the thing that they know how to run anymore.
So then that's, you know, you see that all the time in tech
where they bring in a CEO if the founder is just more of like a
chair and they bring in someone who actually knows how to run a
business in the. Next phase, in the next phase,
and there's nothing wrong with that, That's a really smart move
because it means that you're growing and that actually it
means that you're freed up to not have to run the business.
You can actually go focus on the innovation and things that you
want to drive forward. So, yeah, I mean I I don't like
the analogy, but I think businesses are like sharks.
If they don't keep moving forward, I think they die
because I you have to be for something.
You have to move forward for something.
It doesn't mean that you have to grow to an exponential number of
people, but you have to be moving towards something that
you want to get to and then you know when you hit that point
then you have to move towards something else.
It's it's it's there's a that's the purpose of it.
But there is no angle. It's just this long distance
thing that you build and keep going.
So yeah, I don't know, I think that's a it's a challenge to
think that way when you are you just want to build a table or
you want to build a buildings, you just want to design rooms.
I mean, that's you. Want to go back to kind of the
comfort zone and what you were doing before?
Probably, yeah. And I think that's fine too.
Like, if you just want to stay small, Yeah.
But I do think there's a challenge there.
Like don't have a business if you just want to be one person.
I think that's fair. Yeah.
It's like, it's too complicated. Just be a freelancer and just
design stuff. Like, great.
But if you want to have a company, you have to be on a
trajectory towards something, yeah.
Cuz people also wanna grow with the company.
Yeah, that's kind of why they hop on board.
Yeah, exactly. For that vision, Yeah.
And they're not just there to be doers.
They're there to bring themselves and to help you grow
it. Right.
The value. Yeah.
So that's yeah, there's a lot here.
Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah.
I think the hardest part. I mean for me personally, if I'm
in that role and I've I've brought it from let's say 0 to
50 people, is then stepping out and being like, OK, we're going
from startup to scale up phase. And it's not really my skill set
because also you've been honing your skill set for this phase.
And then if you've reached kind of the end point of your phase,
being like acknowledging that this is not your skill set
anymore and someone else might be able to do it better.
That's a hard one. Yeah.
I mean, your ego takes a hit.
Yeah. Yeah.
You're like, oh, I don't have all the answers.
I'm not really. I'm I'm not capable of doing
this, but I I think that you have to let you feel that and
then move on because you'll just, I think you'll try and
control everything otherwise, right?
And then the company will suffer for it.
It's not about you and at that point anymore.
I think, I think that's a great way to round off.
Thank you so much for coming on. Oh, it's been a pleasure.
Thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you.
Thanks. For coming on, was this kind of
what you expect to go into it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so.
It was really lovely. Thank you for having awesome,
nice conversation. Thank you so much.
Then I'm gonna round it off here.
I'm gonna put all Lindsay's socials in the description
below. Check her outlet.
Her know you came from our show. And with that being set, thank
you for listening. We'll see you on the next one.
Bye.