Hi everyone, my name is Reggie Coquille.
And for today's episode, we covered public speaking, as well
as Communications for people that are bit more technical
oriented, my guest new Thompson shares, his own Journey with
regards to public speaking, and he does on a regular basis on
the, teach the geek podcast. Besides that, he helps people
with public speaking, as well as coach people.
I'll put all the links to socials in the description
below. Check him out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode.
I want to go over your kind of point that public speaking game
became a bit more apparent within your career because you
mentioned in the cold before that you were software engineer
and you were doing a lot of presentations at the time.
Can you share a little bit more about that?
Sure. So I worked in medical devices
and the product development engineer, that was my second
job. My first job was as a research
associate at a startup company and there were no presentations
that I had to give and that was something that wasn't something.
I was all that upset about all those presentations.
It was my boss that had to do with them but with my second job
I was a project lead and essentially what that was is the
company was too cheap to hire project managers.
So they push that responsibility onto the product development
Engineers, one of which was having to give Status updates in
front of Senior Management on a monthly basis and this was all
day Affair. So we're talking the CEO CTO CMO
seeing film, The Blanco, all these people in the room just
listening to a bunch of Engineers give project status
updates and my first presentations were absolutely
horrendous. Patrick, I don't think it was
possible to sweat that profusely from one's body, but there it
was just pouring out of me, just from everywhere.
I mean fingernails don't even have pores.
How, how Ow my finger. Yes with But these are, this
was, this is an ongoing thing. I need to do this every month,
really eventually. Yeah, So eventually what
happened is my project was cancelled and that was the
project that I was actually brought into the company to do
because I thought I was going to be out of a job.
Luckily, they just moved me on to other projects but that
definitely was the wake-up call that I needed to really decide
that I need to get better at giving presentations in front of
people, especially decision makers, especially
decision-makers who don't have technical Yeah, and it did you
have any presentation experience with regards to your educational
career? Or was that kind of the moment
where it really started to get the ball rolling where you had
to do it? Regardless of I had nothing in
terms of school year? Nothing.
I really think it's. Yeah, it's unfortunate to and I
don't think it's all that uncommon for a lot of people at
least here in the US who go to engineering school here is okay,
be presenting is not really presenting are presenting,
technical information. Isn't something at least when I
went to school. There was all that emphasized.
It was really, that second job, where it became a necessity for
me to give presentations in front of people.
Okay, interesting, because in the Netherlands, you do practice
a lot with giving presentations. However, if you're in a group
setting usually, let's say a group is five people.
One of them would take on kind of giving the presentation and
that would be their share of the work they do within that
project. And obviously, that person would
either want to do it or try and Better at it or already is
adapted doing that. So for myself, I usually left
that to other people a lot, but I do know that, for example,
putting so much text on your slides that it's almost a book
is a bad idea, yet. I've seen other people do that
and I'm like, man, that that's like fundamental, you should
know that, that might not be the best idea, but I get if you
don't get a lot of practice, I mean, if you're, if you were
like yourself back, Back when you were the one allowing other
people to give the presentations and maybe then that's not all
that apparent to you. But I can, I can say from
personal experience going to a number of conferences, allows
them more technical in nature. A lot of them, more Technical
and academic in nature. When you get a grad student or a
postdoc, or even a professor giving a presentation, is all it
can very well. Be a whole lot of text on the
slide and a lot of reading of the slides and that's a very
difficult, very difficult to engage an audience, we are not
looking at them. You're looking at the slides
because that's like a greeting them.
Exactly. And then for the audience it's
like, okay, I'm gonna listen to someone read the slides, I'm
going to read myself which someone is just going to talk
through. Like it doesn't.
It doesn't make sense from an audience perspective either.
Yeah. Then you have the third option
which is just not pay attention at all.
Yeah. Which it looks like some people
than off to. Yeah, that makes sense.
Cool but when yeah so you mentioned that your project
ended and you you were put on to a different project and that's
really when it clicked when you wanted to focus on getting
better at presentation or public speaking.
How like yeah, it was the first step in there.
I joined Toastmasters. So for those of you all that,
don't know, it's an international organization,
whose goal is to help people improve their public speaking
skills and it provides a great Forum to do that.
The the issue that I had with Toastmasters was, it's for
everybody. So, if you have a technical
presentation, you may very well be presenting to people who
aren't the best or perhaps it may not be able to give you the
best advice on how to improve a technical presentation because
they've never given one themselves.
Yeah. And that's really where Where I
start until I started as you mentioned having to give these
presentations and in front of management.
But then I really wanted to develop something to help people
like myself, people that work in the technical Fields, who have
to give presentations, especially in front of
non-technical audiences, because these people tend to be the
decision-makers and if you're an engineer working in a company
and for instance, you want to get buy-in for a project or
project that you want to work on.
Then you got to convince these people and throwing a bunch of
People jargon that them a bunch of data isn't going to cut it.
You're likely going to get a no. So I try to figure out what can
I develop? That can help people like me and
I ended up developing an online course I called it teach the
geek to speak. So you join Toastmasters.
And if I were to summarize it, those Masters really General,
right? I've had one.
Guest on one, pair of on is his name and he loves Toastmasters.
He says it really helped him practice what he wanted to.
Perfect, which is to speak in public but that's very general,
right? He is currently in the data
science field, he didn't learn anything with regards to how to
convey data to people that don't have that same background but
our stakeholders within that process.
So really did. I think that Niche maybe is
lacking with in there. But I have heard that it's
really good with regards to the general public speaking, which
is really cool. 100%. As I mentioned, is a great forum
for that and you learn the I guess the art of public speaking
which is great so now you're a great presenter but are you
great? Representing the technical
information in a way that non-technical people can
understand Toastmasters really isn't the best, I guess it
really isn't what? It's not based on that.
It's not meant for that. It's just it's meant for getting
better at just be more comfortable giving presentations
in front of people. Exactly.
And when it comes to comfort like what were the biggest
points? You that helped you at least
create your comfort zone with in giving presentations or public
speaking even. Well, it starts with practice.
You don't get better at something if you don't do it and
for the longest while I avoided it, I mean I mentioned that that
first job I didn't have to give the presentations and the
possibly were opportunities for me to do so but it was never
anything I pushed for. I'll tell you that it was only
until I was forced to do it in that second job.
That I ended up seeing the benefit and there's also just
looking around at the people who tend to move up within
organizations, you could be an engineer who's very Technically
proficient. But if no one knows about your
technical proficiency, if you're not the best at advocating for
yourself and networking with the people who can make those
decisions, have you move up within corporations and you'll
likely be that engineer who's just doing in their cubicle mad
because someone else got the promotion that you thought you
deserved. Yeah, it's really.
I mean, I think like, I undervalued, when I started out
how much you kind of need to advocate for yourself, which is
a shame, right? Because everything When she just
get it, it will be a lot easier if they would.
But for them to get it, you have to communicate what they should
get. And sometimes that is very hard
for us to do, right? Well, you know what it is is
you're assuming that everybody knows about what you're doing,
but why would you even make that assumption everybody?
The company's got thinking about themselves and their own
progression. Their own advancement.
But you're supposed to be top of mind.
Please other people. Why would you even have that
expectation? Yeah.
When you put it like that, it
makes a lot of sense. But when you start out your
like, I mean I'm part of this, right?
So they know what's going on. They know what I have on my
plate and then know what I'm working on.
That's a lot of times when I see people they're like I can't
leave. Or I can't be sick and I'm like,
it's an organization continues. The world doesn't like stop
spinning. Everything will continue.
Whether you're sick or whether you're on leave, or whether
you're there, it's going to be slightly different.
Ian juby saying you could die and they'll have a job
requisition up for your position the week later.
Yeah, I agree. Might sound harsh but if you
think about it, that's actually how it works.
Yeah. When I move into you because you
said you started something to help engineer specifically, get
better with public speaking, but then we also touched upon people
advocating for themselves which is not necessarily.
I wouldn't put that in the public speaking sense but that
has more to do with communication.
Do you think Engineers require communication skills or would it
be more public speaking skills or what is your thought on that?
Well, I think it's a bit of both.
Only when you talk about communicating, it's all about
just talking about your value, to an organization and a great
way to do that is through public speaking.
The people that are the communicators, the people who
are able to talk about what they do, well, are the ones who
typically have the visibility within a company.
You have the visibility of all the decision-makers know who you
are decision makers, know who you are.
Now, your top of mind for them, for those positions, if you're
the engineer who's not great at giving, Presentations, you're
not advocating for yourself. You're not communicating at all.
You just think that being technically proficient at doing
your job really? Well, we'll have you move up
within an organization. Well, you're in for a rude
awakening. Yeah, that makes sense.
I like the way my buddy. Toby.
Put it totally Toby only wallet. He said when you're applying for
a job, it's weird but the best candidate actually doesn't
always win. It's the people that can
communicate why they are the best and that they are the best
that will probably get the job. Bob, even though they might not
be the best, it's the people that can communicate it most
effectively. And if you cannot, then that's a
shame because you might actually be the best.
But you do need to work on your communication skills. 100%.
I mean, even determining who the best is.
I mean, you don't want to leave that in the, in the eyes, or in
the control of others. To look at a resume and think,
okay, this person is the best person you want to have as much
control over the situation as possible and you have control
over what you say about about yourself and why you are the
best person for that particular job.
So, get better at communicating that with others and you give
yourself a better chance of getting the position.
Oh yeah. We're talking about like
technical people. Maybe engineer software
engineers in specific. What is kind of the Common
Thread that you see usually goes well, and something they really
need to work on. What goes well, is that they put
some thought into a process for actually giving a presentation.
They don't go willy-nilly into it.
I have a friend who actually gives me a hard time, he's not
an engineer and he gives me a hard time over the fact that I
practiced my presentations before I give them.
Okay. Does a lot of Wiki, you brings a
lot of his presentations and it's quite obvious that he wins
a lot of his presentations. I just heard him actually give a
presentation just a few days ago and it was required obvious that
he did. Practice at all.
And it's unfortunate because when you practice, you figure
out the best way to put things together, and they'll point this
point, one point. Two point.
Three Y is point. One point one.
Does it make sense 4.1 to be point one?
I think, Engineers because of their analytical nature.
They're they're much more likely to think about those types of
things. One of the issues I think we
have is Engineers, is the the jargon that we tend to use
amongst each other, which may not be all that.
We may not be known to non-technical audience and so if
you end up using these words, they very well go over people's
heads. And people may not be
comfortable asking you what that word means, because they're
worried about looking foolish in front of other people.
And I can, I can attest to being in that situation once I went to
a marketing event and the person was talking about Downstream and
Upstream marketing to this day of, I always get them mixed up
as was the difference between the upstream and downstream mean
when I think of streams I'm thinking about But they're
talking about marketing and but I was, but I was worried about
asking a question. I was very worried about asking
a question at the end because I didn't want look foolish in
front of all these other people who very well, knew what
upstream and downstream marketing was.
But that was a default of myself.
I should have asked because I was assuming that they all knew,
but they're very well, may have been people in the audience that
didn't know. But was.
Well, the better is to use more commonly used words, or at least
explain the word. Certain words that perhaps may
not be known by everyone in the audience.
And I think that's something that Engineers may not be all
that Adept at doing. Yeah.
Interesting because tailoring to your audience, seems logical.
Right? Seems logical in content that
you create even when you're writing a blog post and it might
not be obvious. Because obviously, if you're
writing a technical blog post, the audience is going to be
technical, maybe they want to solve the same issue you did or
learn from what you did and how you did that.
So then it makes Sense to talk on a more technical level.
But if you're giving a general presentation to decision makers
and cxos or even marketing people, if you're not a
marketing person and the people are using marketing jargon in
this going to be a mismatch in understanding 100% And ones are
mismatch of understanding then you'll get fall off of people.
Actually listening to what you have to say, which is
unfortunate because I'm sure you put a lot of time and effort
into your presentation and you want to make sure as many people
can understand it and are engaged with it as possible.
Yeah. So in essence, if they, for
example, prepare what they have to say, they prepared it there
with in time, even in the know what they're going to say going
into that. And their language is
tailor-made for the audience that they have.
Or even generically made, that it can be understood by a
broader audience. Are they there then, or are they
still kind of lacking certain aspects of what they should
focus on? Oh, I think that's half the
battle of mean, just knowing your audience and knowing what
the, what they want to what, how to convey the information in the
best way possible. I think that's that's more than
half the battle. I think a lot of times also,
just in terms of giving presentations is having a clear
call to action at the And I know that I was something that I
struggled with when I what I didn't do.
When I first started giving presentations is just you want
the audience to know what they what you what you as the
presenter need from them at the end of the presentation.
So I mentioned I was giving presentations on project status
updates. Yeah.
So potential call to action could be I need more resources
to get the project done on time. Yeah.
And that wasn't something that I was making all that clear in the
presentation. I just thought they would get it
based on on the other things. So I said well this is this this
part of the project to slipping and this other part of the
project is going to slip because this part of the project
slipped. So I'm inferring, I need more
resources so that there's less slippage in these parts of the
project but I never come out and say I need more resources and I
think you do yourself a disservice by not doing that.
Yeah I like that it's really just setting the expectations
and lot. Not letting people necessarily
interpret their own but stating exactly what you Of them, if you
need more, see resources, tell them, or let them know or convey
that so they understand and can help you in that way as well.
I like that a lot that I think I especially starting off, if I
were to give an update, it would just be that it would be an
update or if I would need help. I would also exactly as you say,
allow people to interpret that and think it's obvious, right?
Because if I read it and I these are my conclusions, then I would
think other people would do the same thing but men reality is
different sometimes. Absolutely, I agree.
Yeah, I mean if you can eliminate any assumptions why
wouldn't you saw sense? I know you do a podcast and
you've been doing it for a while as well and you interview people
and you ask them about their own journey.
Within public. Speaking through that, have you
seen kind of a correlation of people clicking with public
speaking in the same way or doing certain things like even
having a conversation and realizing on I actually need to
tailor make my presentation or the communication that I do to
the audience. I'm speaking to was that have
you seen kind of a general correlation there or how's that
been? Oh, 100%.
I mean, a lot of the it's so interesting to how a lot of the
people that I interviewed almost mirror my own journey in public
speaking. It's just something that they
were that was thrust onto them. It wasn't me.
Something they were looking to do, but they eventually saw the
benefit of it and then they also then saw what they needed to do
to get better at it. At least eventually some of them
saw a little sooner than I did. They didn't have a get the
project cancelled for them to get the get the point but A lot
of them, they eventually they see the point of getting better
at it and like myself, they looked for opportunities to do
it. A number of them actually
started podcast and they said that that was actually very
helpful and then becoming just better at communicating their
thoughts and and communicating with others.
Especially the ones who interview people like.
I do love hearing the, I think the more you practice the better
you get at it. It's just for me personally and
I especially throughout my Occasional journey.
I got so much anxiety, even before.
Starting just the idea of it or actually standing in front of
people and having to present, or having to talk even like even
now when I'm in a room of people, I don't know.
And you do the rounds, right? You talk about hey, who are you?
What are you going to do within this project?
What is kind of your role or maybe in your background?
It gives me anxiety. Maybe on a minor scale, but the
idea of me doing that on a more public skill is still there.
R. I just figured out my way to
deal with that, and I think because that anxiety is
therefore, a lot of people, it kind of with holds them from
trying or practicing in the first place.
And that's, that's so unfortunate because I'm sure you
have a lot of thoughts that are useful and can benefit people,
and it would be a shame for them to just stay in your head and
not be communicating with others.
And you also got to think about the ways that different people
like to do. Can information.
Some people prefer to read some people prefer to here and it'd
be a shame if the people who prefer to hear, never hear from
you. Yeah, I agree.
But there's always that uncertainty that was also there
before while I was a little bit less on certain that my
thoughts. Probably, no one wants to hear
those, right? And probably everyone is
thinking the same thing and making the same conclusion as I
am, or if I have a question, I should probably not ask that.
Because as you say, people probably know even though they
might not know, Yeah, I mean that's definitely a concern, I
mean, yeah, as I mentioned, I was in that in that exact
position of having to sitting in an audience and not being all
that comfortable asking a question because I was I was
worried about looking foolish but again, that was an
assumption that I made and I know that I shouldn't have made.
Ultimately, I'm the fool for not getting the information that I
wanted, because, now I'm leaving the the event.
Not understanding it as best as I possibly could.
But if I just asked the question and maybe even risk the the idea
of looking foolish and I think I would have been much better off.
Yeah, I agree. I think sometimes it's fair to
take a risk to see how it plays out and to experience what the
other side would be right. If you never take a risk, or if
you never take a chance to ask a question, you're never going to
know what's going to be on the other end of that outcome than,
as well. Yeah, I mean and I think I'm
said this or earlier, but you don't know if other people in
the audience have that same question and there's just
worried about as asking it. So you can just basically open
up the floodgates of a bunch of questions for attentively that
other people had. But you were the one you were,
the Catalyst actually asked it and you helped everyone out,
right? We're talking about the podcast
earlier and I've never asked you this actually, but why?
Did you start the podcast the way back when you did?
Well, the podcast was really about other people's public
speaking Journeys. I really was interested in
knowing about them because I had my own phone speaking Journey
that I mentioned, I was curious to see if other people in the
technical Fields had similar ones.
And that's really what I started.
The podcast for is just to learn about these people's Journeys,
but it morphed into something even completely, well, not
different, but it certainly I've added on to it.
So now it's not just About people's public speaking
Journeys but it's also about their career Journeys.
Some of the most interesting conversations I've had with
people are people who started off one place and ended up
somewhere completely different. This one guess that always
stands up stands out. To me, her name is, Christine,
Vartan Ian. She got a degree in civil
engineering never worked as one though.
She then went to law school and worked.
As a lawyer for about four years.
Then she was a stay-at-home mom for ten years and now she works
as Personal stylist mean, you can I couldn't make that up.
If I tried civil engineer to personal stylist, it's such an
interesting journey and if I adjust focused on the public
speaking part, I would have missed that part completely.
And I think that could be of interest to people to especially
people who are concerned about deviating from the path that
they're on. I get the sense of there are a
lot of people out there that are like that.
You went to school for engineering.
You have to work as an engineer. I mean what?
And And why would you not? That's what you went to school
for. But if you have other interests
than its you have One Life to Live, it'd be a shame.
If you didn't follow those interest to see where they take
you. Yeah, I think it's like a really
aligned with that because the most interesting conversations
I've had as well, not take a less from the other
conversations I've had, but I really appreciate when people
take a chance especially when it comes to a career switch or
doing something completely different in their life and
figuring out. This is actually what I was
meant to do. It wasn't civil engineering,
what it wasn't what? I went to school for its this
and they only find that through figuring life out figuring their
own life out, figuring out what they don't like figuring out
what they do like and then especially grabbing towards what
they actually do. Like, I think a big issue, I
think a lot of people have is they may very well want to
change change paths but they're worried about the Judgment of
others. And that's a shame to especially
you mean. A lot of people, they may very
well go to university to get an engineering degree and then they
end up working as an engineer and they don't like it so much,
but they stay being an engineer because they're worried about
the Judgment of say, their parents or just other people in
their Circle. Me you Went to school for
engineering when we're also very proud.
You became an engineer, you're not working as one.
Why would you want to deviate from that?
And they make me feel guilty about it and very well stay
Engineers even though they're unhappy.
But, as I mentioned this, you only have one life to live and
and becoming the courage to make that change and do something
else. I highly commend people who do
it and I thoroughly enjoy having conversations with those type of
people. Yeah, yeah, I agree as well.
Sometimes the internet is a little bit slow, and then your
voice clean catches up. And I just lost my train of
thought throughout that. Yeah, I think if we kind of
withhold from what we want to do, because we focus too much on
what people are judging right. Whether it's public speaking, or
whether it's switching careers because you don't want to be a
doctor and your parents always expect you to be one.
You're never gonna have that life.
That really fulfills you if you don't do what you actually want
and figuring out what you want is a first.
But then taking that step in actually doing that that needs
to follow as well. 100%, I couldn't agree more and even
someone like myself, I started off as an engineer working in
medical devices. But now I do a bunch of
different things. I do that.
I have a children's book. I do Consulting on medical
device packaging. I have a bunch of different
interests and I just, I follow them.
I follows interest and I see where they lead me.
Yeah, I love that. That's pretty cool.
Zooming in, on the the children's books and she touched
upon it as well. Can you give a little intro?
Towards that. Sure, it's called a skunk
O'Neill. Why is my hair curly?
It's about my nephew asking me why his hair is the way it is.
And I use science to answer the question.
The motivation for the book is the Foster children's curiosity.
And I mentioned that I was, I worked as an engineer, but the
reason I worked as a reason, I even became an engineer wasn't
really. Because I thought to become an
engineer, it was because my father, when I was in high
school said, go to the engine. During school and I had them.
Whether I was really thinking about anything else.
I didn't have any other plans and so I became an engineer.
I went to engineering school and I used to lie about that a lot
actually. I fly about the reason I became
an engineer because embarrassed, by the reason, because often
times when you ask people that question, they have way more.
Interesting. Answer.
Maybe they played with Legos as a child, maybe they were
robotics Club when they were in high school.
There was a robotics Club when I was in high school.
He stepped on my high school and I don't really recall.
Play with Legos, I became an engineer because my father said
I should and I just I followed that path and it worked out,
okay? But I really want children to
understand that Being curious is is what will lead you to down
different paths. I wasn't curious about
engineering, really, I became one because of what my father
said, who knows. Maybe I would have ended up an
engineer anyway, but I really want young kids in the book is
written for children up to 8 years old.
Okay. I want them to embrace curiosity
and seeing where that leads you. And not only that, but I want
parents to Foster that within children, you know, I remember
when I was a kid. And I'd ask questions and there
were times where my prayers were really were interested in
answering. I'll say I had that too.
Yeah. But I really I'm really.
I firmly believe that. That parents should really help
their kids in just being in fostering that Curiosity and ask
and answering questions and telling the kids that well if
they don't know, the answer will look what can we do to find out
what the answer is and because oftentimes those with the
question as the question Question askers of today are
going to be the problem solvers of Tomorrow.
What our Engineers do typically they're they're problem solvers,
but before you get to the problem, well before you get to
them solution, you have to be able to know what the problem is
and be and be Adept at asking problems.
Her asking questions to get to these Solutions.
And that's really what I wanted to convey with the children's
book is Be curious, and it's in for parents, let your kids be
curious. I think that is so cool because,
especially, for my personal Journey Curiosity, has always
been a huge driver within that figuring things out asking
questions. I mean, I kind of laughed at
what you said because I did it way too much as a kid to the
point where my parents will be like.
Yeah, that's a bit too much or we don't know.
And we're not going to figure it out or just let that one go.
But curiosity, how was always been a big driver.
For me, figuring out how things actually work.
I think that's how I ended up being a software engineer
because still on a technical level that drives me.
But now that I'm focused more on communication, even on a
personal level on a motivational level on a People level, it
draws me why people do the things they do.
And I want to help them with that.
Even when I meet new people, I think there is always something
interesting that someone brings to the table.
And I think a big reason why I believe that is because
curiosity is a big driver for me.
And you want to make it so that those people are comfortable in
talking about about what they know because you mentioned, you
mentioned earlier. How there are, you know, there
are people who may keep what they know to themselves because
they're worried about what other people might think of it.
Or what, why do people want to hear what I have to say?
Yeah, but can you imagine if everyone thought that way we'd
all just be silent all the time and that be a shame.
Yeah, be a real shame. I agree.
I love that. You picked up kind of your
personal Journey with regards to how you go into engineering and
we want to pay it forward in a different way to the Young
Generation now and Foster that Curiosity within them I haven't
met anyone that has created a children's book based on what
they've experienced. What was that?
Just a random thought like I'm gonna really pay forward in this
or were you inspired? It by something.
How did it become a children's book?
I first wrote the book. Well, when I first wrote the
book, I actually was curious about the question that I was
asking. And so, I did some research to
figure it out and I when I first and then I put that in a book
form, but then I thought about could this book have a larger
meaning and it really was about being comfortable asking
questions and Kids becoming more comfortable doing, so means that
they become adults that are more comfortable doing.
So I can remember becoming a this first.
I remember that first job that I had that first performance
review. Like my boss said that I never
took initiative and the crazy thing is I was never brought up
to take initiative. I brought up to wait to be told
what to do. It wasn't to ask questions and
and to come up with Solutions, it was to do what I was told.
I mean Like, I told you I became an engineer because my father
said I should, and I carried that all throughout my life up
until that point to that, that performs interview.
And that made me think, you know, other people expect me to
ask questions. I don't think people expect me
to show initiative and do things on my own and not wait for
others to tell me what to do. Well, maybe this is something
that I should look into and that really started a new journey in
my life. Yeah, that's really cool.
Actually, I've never really thought about how I was brought
up and how that kind of translates to what I'm doing
now. But one of the distinct thoughts
I had, was when I said I couldn't do it.
I couldn't do something. Yeah, my parents, specifically,
my mom wouldn't accept that. So she would always figure out a
way for me to still do it or enable me to figure it out,
myself, which has been a big driver throughout my journey as
well, but I did kind of get pushed in that That realm of
our, your really good analytically.
So, these are kind of the career options, and it wasn't like, I
didn't start with a blank slate. I always have that in the back
of my mind, going into a university or an educational
Journey. That that was what I was good
at, which means I would also be good in that in the future.
But on the same end it could have been something completely
different. I could have been more creative
or a different aspect of my life could have shined brighter which
meant that I then went on the wrong career path.
I guess. You know, Patrick when it comes
to even people becoming Engineers, actually, I wrote a
LinkedIn post about this, maybe a few weeks ago, and in high
school, you very well, could have a teacher or guidance
counselor, say you're good at math, you're good in science.
Go into engineering and I think a lot of people may very well
take that advice. Yeah, but there's two sides to
that coin, just because you're good at math and science,
doesn't mean you should be an engineer.
We do you want to actually go through the curriculum?
Elam, that's required to become an engineer.
Are you interested in doing the classes?
Once you become an engineer, you get your this engineering degree
and you are you willing to do the work that Engineers
typically do when you enter a field because you're interested
in it and you're willing to do the work.
And if you don't have one of those two things, you likely
won't stick with it. And so the idea of just because
you're good at math and and or science you should go into
engineering, I don't think it was, right?
You really need to look at Whether this is something you
want to pursue as opposed to just I'm good at math.
This is something I should pursue.
Yeah yeah I completely agree with that.
Maybe I could have thought of it different cuz I also thought it
would be easier. Right?
It's easier getting better at what you're already good at it's
harder honing, something really a skill that you're not really
good at in the first place because it's it's motivating
when you get better at it when you see that progression and
that progression will be slower. If it's not suited for you You.
But if you want to do something, actually do it on a day.
To day thing, whether it's your professional job, or even a
hobby, what comes with that is putting in the work and if you
don't want to put in the work then you're not going to make
it. It's pretty simple.
It's kind of a fair trade-off in that way.
Oh II. Highly agree.
And that's why you may very well.
See, drop-offs of people who were engineers and aren't
Engineers anymore. I'm not saying that all of them
leave because they never wanted to be Engineers from the first
place. But I suspect a subsection of
those people who leave absolutely are leaving because
they never wanted to be an engineer in the first place, but
they were told in school. You're good at math, you're good
science, be an engineer but just because you're good at
something. Doesn't mean you want to work in
it? Yeah, I agree.
Like right now I don't have any kids yet but that's a lot of
food for thought when I do have them to kind of.
Make sure they're that Horizon is Broad, right?
It doesn't have a baggage that they carry with them from.
Professors of from people, having said to them, you're
really good at this. So you should do this for them
to allow curiosity to drive them and figure out them their
options for themselves. I think that is a healthy
mindset for someone that is still in that phase. 100%.
I mean, when I talk about even my children's book, one of the
other goals of it is for kids to consider stem fields or the
technical field. Is that the tell them go into
the stem fields, are in to encourage and we're promote
stem. I just want them to see it as an
option. Yeah.
And then when you see it as an option then you make a more
informed decision as to what you want to do.
But I'm definitely not a fan of people telling kids, we need
more people in engineering become an Near.
Yeah, I like that a lot because the worst thing you have and
it's still I mean throughout your professional Journey as
well. If you don't know, something is
an option. You're not going to go for that.
So allowing people and sharing what the options are allows them
to make a choice, right? I love choosing from a menu of
options because I can pick and choose based on first my
personal preference, then the context that I mean if someone
says this is it and you got to do this and something in me just
Rebels and I'm like, No, that doesn't doesn't feel great.
Yeah, I was just having the conversation with someone.
That's maybe it's a few days ago and he asked no, it was just
yesterday actually. And he was telling me about a
friend that he had in college, the friend had parents who
wanted him to do engineering. So he started off as an
engineering major, but he was always more interested in video
production, okay? And the person I was speaking to
also was interested in video production.
So the friend would often help the person I was speaking to
with his Video production projects just as a side hustle
off of in addition to the his engineering studies, eventually
he got the courage to leave engineering altogether and go
into video production and his parents weren't all that happy
about it but at least now he's working in video production.
He's doing what he actually likes to do and ultimately you
live your life for yourself, not for the expectations of others.
Yeah. I love that you live your life
for yourself. Not the expectations for others.
I think that's a huge Mantra that people either don't know or
they don't realize it right. Because man, especially coming
off University. I was like I'm gonna pick a job
and that's going to be that. That thought and even earlier on
that thought that you have to pick and then choose and then
probably stick with it because then it makes sense, right?
You really specialize in, you get better at it, that's a
notion amongst kids. And as an adult, when I actually
did start out, I was like, no, I'm going to start out really
Broad and I'm going to try out a lot of things and then I'm going
to figure out what I don't like and I'm going to figure out what
I do like and then navigate towards what I do.
Like right somehow there's a disconnect in what we educate
kids or the notion that is amongst them.
In that, they have a lot of choices.
They have freedom, and they have time to spend on choosing and
figuring things out and you don't have to know everything
from from the start. Because man, if everyone knew
everything from the start, it be let it be a bit more boring as
well. I think 100% And A, you know,
when you're talking Patrick gave reminded me of coding boot
camps. So, I've had a number of guests
on my podcast who've went to coding bootcamp.
Stay Turn it off their working lives as anything, but coders
anything but programmers, but they eventually thought you'd
eventually developed that interest went to a coding
bootcamp. And now they work as software
engineers at some of the bigger companies in the world.
But they started off in something completely different
and I like the idea of that because he's coding boot camps
exist, becoming a software engineer isn't out of the realm
of Mobility. Because that's not what you
started doing. When you were 18 years old,
graduating from high school, you were able to come to it later in
life and in an affordable and efficient way able to migrate or
transition into something else. That something else being
software, engineering, these coding boot camps that are
popping up all over. At least here in the US.
I think they're they're a godsend to many.
Yeah, I agree. I love that, it's not required
to have. A formal education to do,
whatever you want to do, right? A lot of information is out
there for free, and I think that is especially true in the tech
sector. Whether you want to be a
software engineer data engineer data scientist more High over
with regards to Agile, scrum or evil people and processes,
right? It may go and go on YouTube and
you can find a video about a lot of things.
The problem is Yeah, everyone can do that.
Which also means the quality varies.
So what those code boot camps offer, then hopefully, I mean, I
haven't actually followed through with them well but what
I hope they would promise is that it's of high-quality,
right? That if you follow through, do
the coding bootcamp, you are apt enough to start as a junior
somewhere or to start with in a field that you actually want to
pursue. And I think that's an amazing
option for people that want to transition.
It's an amazing option for people that want to start.
And I of to have options, right? It might not be the best option
for anyone, everyone, but it's a great option for a lot of
people. Aren't absolutely.
And what's great about it is, it's at least in the u.s.
University or college is quite expensive.
So, it offers voice less expensive, way of getting the
education, you need to enter into an industry.
And I don't see why you would forgo such an option, you get to
make the same amount of money, potentially as someone who went
to University, but you don't have the crippling student debt
of someone who went to University.
Yeah, I agree. I think I shared this before the
show, but in the Netherlands here, it's you don't go that
much into debt versus the us when you go to university.
I think that's why code bootcamps are little bit less
prevalent, what we do have here is more of an incubation, which
is exactly the same as a coding bootcamp for a longer period,
but then through that program you get placed into an
organization. And you already have your first
job. So their job is to coach you and
to guide you You and also to place you immediately at a
company, which is even one step further.
It's another option on the menu that you can take, which is
really cool. Yeah.
More options.
The more, the more ability you have to pick something you
actually like absolutely. Absolutely.
I I want to round it off there. Neal.
Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your take on public
speaking. Your personal journey in there
as well. I love hearing about how you
created the book and why you created that?
Well, is there anything you still want to share?
Well you mentioned that I have a podcast.
I also have a YouTube channel if you want to check them out.
The the YouTube channel link is YouTube teach the geek.com and
then you can actually get access to the podcast from the YouTube
channel and it's called Teach the geek.
Teach the geek is the the podcast and YouTube channel are
all about tuck talking about the public speaking journeys of
people in the tech industry or just in the technical Fields.
There's quite a number of About public speaking.
But as Niche does mine is I don't I don't know of any and if
there are I really would like to learn about them.
But it's really interesting to hear the stories of people like
myself, people that come from the technical Fields have to
give presentations. And what did they do to get
better at it? Did they do they have a process
for giving their presentations? Do they ever get nervous?
How did they deal with their nerves?
Just learn the, the answers to some of these questions.
As even helped me and getting better at giving.
Presentations because it provides perspectives that I
never thought before. So I release episodes every
Wednesday and if you care to check them out.
Awesome. I'm going to put all the links
to your podcast and your channel as well in the description
below. I've checked out a few and I
know of the uniqueness of each and every one story in how they
prepare what they've overcome or even kind of the field they
transitioned into. I've listened to a few and you
actually have a lot of seniority over me with the girls, the
podcast hosting as well, which is really cool man.
I loved seeing how you're already on episode 200.
Something, I think that's super amazing.
Thank you. I mean it's fun to give you the
interview so it's definitely not something that is a chore for
me. Pod fate is quite a thing.
For those of you that don't know, pod fate is starting a
podcast under realizing how much work they typically are.
They are they can be and then stop in the podcast.
But I've been pretty consistent with them and every week I seem
to be able to pull one out so I'll continue to do them.
Also, we just had a little bit of a connectivity issue, but
we're going to round it off here guys.
New Thomson. I'm going to put all his links
in the description below. Check him out.
Let him know you came from us and thanks for listening.
We'll see you in the next one.