Hi everyone. My name is Bachi, land for
today's episode, we cover mental health issues, something that's
not as discussed as it should be.
So this episode tries to open up and be more vocal about that.
But I have to give you a Content warning on that because things
got quite Deep and got to be emotional here and there as
well. I guess Stacy Cashmore is a
speaker author, and software engineer, and currently a tech
Explorer, devops at only plan, she has a house made of Legos,
which if you have a call with, Her online, you will see on a
background quite awesome. I'll put the links to our
socials in the description below, check that out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode, listen to whenever
you go on stage to the conference talk, occasionally
occasionally not as often as I should do because I these are
headphones. I hate hearing myself.
Yeah. So it's a lot of the time I will
skip it so I Just go through and I know how I think the talk went
and I'll have a look at the bits that I thought went really well.
Okay and I'll have a look at the bits that I thought didn't go
well and I'll try and kind of like is my head correct?
Yeah or am I completely off and I need to look at this in more
detail. Yeah and one or two.
I've done the whole way through generally things like this.
I will watch this one the whole way through because we're going
to be talking about mental health and I want Want to make
sure that I'm giving the the message that I want to give.
So that these ones are so personal to me, that I make sure
I go all the way through. Yeah.
And the more technical ones I would do the, the important
bits. And check how that one's gone,
and the ones that I'm not entirely happy with.
Yeah, I will listen to those all the way through.
Okay, so I had that with.net rocks.
I did an episode on static web apps because that's like my tech
emotion and I was not feeling well at the time.
Yeah. And I actually said to Richard
and Carl in the recordings like if this isn't good enough for
you to use I am not going to be offended, okay?
And yeah both of them went. No, this is great.
We've got good stuff here. Just like you're being nice to
me and then I listened to it afterwards and I'm still not
entirely happy with it but it was better than I thought it
was. Yeah, I mean, I recognize what
you're saying, like, I've gone. I mean, I'm hosting this episode
then I've hosted the last eight. D.
But I've also gone on as a guest on several podcasts and I we do
some to myself as a host or even as a guest.
And I'm like, man, I was really tired.
Like, my interactions my snappiness.
They're just gone or I wasn't feeling it or actually, I didn't
listen to what the person said. I went on a different topic.
Like I can pick those out re listening, but during the
moment, I also kind of notice it but not the, not the severity of
it. Yeah.
That's there's kind of a disconnect there.
I've also had because the last episode it was a qa1.
And that one was me answering the questions that were sent in
through the listeners. And when I listen back to that
one, when I look back to that one, I was like, this is like a
different person, like it doesn't even look like me.
It was way more energy. I was like, sometimes there's
like a disconnect and I don't recognize the person I'm seeing
on screen as that is me. But there's like a disconnect
there. Do you have that as well?
I have that occasionally, I'm watching myself back and I also
have it when I'm actually on the stage.
Yeah, sometimes you just you You totally Miss how the audience is
picking up what you're saying? Yeah, and The worst experience
for me, okay? Are at the actual time whereas
NDC London this year really? I went, I get my talk, it was in
a big room. There were an amount of people
there. It wasn't packed but it wasn't
empty. Yeah, so I think there was about
100 or so people in the room. It's nice audience.
Good amount. Yeah.
It was a beautiful stage, but the room was dark.
So I couldn't see anybody except for the first row.
Yeah. And the Acoustics meant I
couldn't hear anybody. Oh, really?
So, I'm going through my talk. There's a few bits where I make
like a little bit of a joke about stuff, Simons, and yeah,
you just get that silence and nothing back and I can't see
people and the only person I saw laughing was my friend, sitting
in the front row and awesome that she did that.
It's like, that's my friend laughing, Flo supporter.
Yeah. And it wasn't until afterwards.
I came off stage and normally I'm flying when I finished talk.
Yeah. And I came off stage of this one
and my friend came up were know, how did At go.
Then I've never felt this bad coming off of a talk that really
easily the worst one I've ever done.
Okay. What are you talking about?
That was fine. It's like, did you not hear the
people I know and it's It was only when people came up to me
afterwards and started speaking to me.
Yeah, that it actually hit me. It's like, okay, you need to
Believe in yourself a little bit more.
Yeah. Obviously taking note of what
the audience is doing is good, but you also need to believe in
yourself a little bit more here and not just go well, there's
silence. This is dropping like a lead
balloon. Yeah, arm, I get that.
I mean, I was on stage and I was like, okay, I look through the
audience, like, in my head. I know what to do and the
audience look like a few people to me afterwards, after I was
done with my session. In the next round, I sat in the
audience and I was like man, this is a lot of people.
I did not know them have, um, first cuz I didn't recognize the
amount of people that were in there II had that oh, with a lot
of people, the biggest audience I've ever spoken in front of
wires and JS World. Okay.
In Amsterdam. That's a good amount.
And that theater is huge. It's a Theater Amsterdam.
And it's like a hanger sighs theater.
Yeah. It was singletrack about 1,000
people. And for the first two sessions I
went Went and sat with a colleague on the back row and
I'm looking down over all of these heads just thinking what
if I put myself in for here? Yeah but actually walking out
and seeing all of those people, it gave me such energy.
Mmm. I don't know why, I don't know
how, but I'm really happy. It did.
That's all we had really good lighting people there as well
because obviously they know how the theater works.
So I walked on stage, it was one of my first talks after the
pandemic. Yeah, and the lights went down
just as I started to talk, it's like, well, I was going to say
it's great to see everybody in person again, but it's gone
dark. So I guess I can't do that.
And they brought the lights back up, so that I could waive it all
the people before I got going. And it was just, it was, it was
such a fun start. They just put so much energy
into you, and I didn't actually notice how big the audience was
after that point. It was just a really fun
audience to work with. Yeah, even when get have crashed
on me, They did obviously, obviously.
It's like that's what you want. It's get hurt sewing 5:00 when
you try and go to the workflow page.
Perfect. When those your demo the timing
on that is like impeccable. I've had that happen.
Yes. Well, the demo were conference
always is always that. Yeah, I love hearing that.
Do you mentioned you still get kind of anxious or even like the
the amount of people sitting in a crowd can kind of be
confronting, but you had a lot of conference talks, right?
You've had this many times, is it like gradually?
Going down? Or is it always like still
there? No, it's how I still there.
Yeah, rights at that first. The five minutes before you go
on. Yeah.
And so I suppose that's improving.
It used to be like half an hour before I went on it was like, oh
my word. Yeah.
Like a friend of mine. We often send each other
messages when we're stressed. I was like, why do we do this to
ourselves? Yeah, I had that thought as
well. And then you open your mouth.
It's I had it from my very first talk, I was in a room.
Smallest room in the conference because it was my first ever
talk. Yeah.
It was packed. I think there's like one or two
empty seats and that was it and that stress me when it was only
a quarter full at the beginning it was like okay I can do this.
There's some people there's not too many.
Yeah and then it was totally fun.
It's like what have all these people come for?
Who am I to think? I can say something to these
people and I was really stressing.
Hmm and then I got the message to go other signal to go and I
took two deep breaths. Okay, is that it is just so
Awesome to see everybody here. I can't believe you will come to
see my first talk and that's it. Once I got to that, I just
started to fly and I loved it. That's awesome.
I know that that was a point when it was like, okay, I did
this kind of as an anxiety thing, what definitely is an
anxiety thing, but no. Now I've done it once.
Like, I got to do this again. That's awesome.
I mean, I did it once and I was like, okay, I can see how people
get addicted to this because that the energy after that, the
people Out to you and be like, yes, awesome talk.
I'm like, I don't know you. But thank you like this.
Yeah, that means the world to me and I can see I can see myself
doing that more and I could see other people also doing that.
Yeah absolutely. It's very special.
Did you always know you wanted to do that?
Or how, how did you come up to your first kind of conference
though, I did not happen. It kind of has to go back a
little bit. It sound like I've had mental
health issues my entire life since I was a child.
Yeah. And it was in 2018, it got
really bad, okay? I was really struggling at work,
really struggling at home. I'm at work.
I would just sit staring, not at the monitors but through the
monitors. Okay.
And I say this, Every time somebody asked me about it.
I don't know how I wasn't fight, okay?
Because I wasn't working. I was just sitting behind my
desk and spacing out, just try not to cry the whole day at
home. I just also really spaced out
and I had a young son. Hmm.
And I should have been spending more time playing with him.
It's I took our four hours a week off as I would describe the
law if I've said that correctly. That's the one I'm tip to spend
time with him, play with him so that is not just in daycare so
that I'm not just working and around that time, I wasn't
playing with him, he was entertaining himself on the
floor with his toys. I was sitting on the sofa and I
just couldn't get myself off of the sofa.
It was I wanted to and I'm screaming at myself in my head
that I should do but just nothing.
Nothing came out. Yeah.
And with all this going on I started to see a therapist took
me a long time to get that energy and courage but so
pleased that I did and it started to get me on the road to
recovery. Yeah, and about this time, I
also started to go to meetups to try and force myself to do
things. Always a nightmare.
I love the meetups. I love the content is somebody
comes up in speaks to me. I enjoy that too.
But if nobody's coming up in speaking to me then I just
really not in a good place. Yeah.
And then take a rama came to the Netherlands.
Okay. Huge Conference held in a
multiplex cinema. Loads of speakers from around
the world that you just look at the line.
That was like, I have to go to this conference and I knew that
I wasn't going to be healthy but I also knew I wouldn't be
healthy if I didn't go. Yeah and I got they're
ridiculously early because it was like an hour and a half two
hours drive from my home. Okay?
And I don't like being late, that's one of the things that
sets off my anxiety. It's really gets me upset.
So I drove there with An hour and a half to spare, just in
case this traffic. And I went that early.
I actually missed the morning rush hour and got there with no
traffic at all. So I was one of the first
attendees to arrive really early and then Kenya if nobody's
talking to me. I didn't have a power bank so I
couldn't use my phone. Yeah.
To try and entertain myself or at least distract myself from
where I was no books or anything and I'm slowly getting more and
more wound up. Got to the keynote, it a huge.
Huge room in the pâte. À.
Des. Okay.
And it sounds ridiculous, but that was awesome because it was
dark. Everybody's looking at the stage
and you can pretend, you're just on your own, you're not with a
thousand people, you're just on your own.
And that kind of carried on for the first couple of sessions
smaller rooms, but again, it's all Cinemas.
So, when the speaker speaking, it's dark.
It's basically you, and the speaker, and that feels fine.
Yeah, and then we had the first break.
Okay, everyone storms up, everyone storms out, a cinema is
not built for every single Cinema to empty at the same
time, into the hallways. It's built so that a cinema can
empty and fill on a staggered basis.
Yeah, and you've Not you just got all of these things
emptying, a thousand people, The Refreshments, the stands, the
sponsors. And it was just, I was totally
overwhelmed. Yeah, I get that.
Yeah, I saw the arm experienced and and I know people that work
there and I wanted to go and say hello and I just couldn't, I
literally ran off on the stand before.
Anybody could see me. Okay.
And I ended up hunched up again, the wall against the wall with
my arms in front of my face. Completely breaking down.
Yeah. Managed to run into one of the
cinemas which was empty cuz it was the brakes thankfully and
got myself to calm down in the dark and the silence. but I know
at that point that If that was my memory of the day.
Yeah, there's no way I'm coming back for day to exam anxiety,
attacks are not fun and I needed to do something.
And I've seen somebody walking around in I really nice swing
dress with a petticoat full-on 50 swing style, which is my
style, but not what I was wearing in the day cuz Tech
conference jeans and t-shirt for practicality.
Yeah, it's alright. I'm gonna give her a compliment.
Sounds stupid. It's such a small thing but it's
big to me because I struggle speaking to I struggle, speaking
to individual people and starting conversations and to me
if I give someone a compliment in Just have like I'm being a
complete creep. So it's like okay this is going
to be hard but it's a positive hard.
Yeah, at the end of the day I will both in the bathroom.
Washing her hands and she's a speaker.
Yeah, which made it even worse because before I was a speaker,
you have attendees and you have speakers exactly.
Now, I am a speaker. Absolutely not the case of
really, really not pit at the time.
Yeah. And I remember just taking a
deep breath is like, I've just got to say that dress your wings
up to Amazing. and, Her name's Jessica and Jim.
Hmm, awesome. Awesome speak.
And a great friend of mine now and we had a little chat.
Yeah, about style and fashion and then she went off and did
her session. I went off and I thought that
was it. I've done my bit.
I've conquered something in. That was a really great thing to
take at the end of the day. Yeah, they to I turn up actually
in this outfit. Okay.
Full swing outfit because hey, if she can do it, I can do it.
Yeah. And I feel Oh good.
Ennis it helps my mental health just being in this outfit
because you feel good about yourself.
Yeah, that's that will do that. And I was walking from the car
park to the venue. And some guy, came running up
behind me, tapped me on my shoulder and said, I've just got
to say the session. You gave yesterday was
outstanding. No way.
It's like I know exactly who you mean.
Yeah, but it wasn't me. So I'm going to send her a
message on Twitter and pass it on for you.
I can see why you would make this mistake.
There's not that many people that go to conferences in full
swing dresses. Yeah, there's getting more which
is really cool. It's armed with both about the
same height with both got red hair, so fun, the back I can
totally see okay past the compliment Along on Twitter and
she tweeted back. Oh, awesome.
I mean the insta-tox only brought one dress, but I can't
wait to see your outfit. I'll look for you over breakfast
and I thought that's polite. And again expected That to be
the end of it. Yeah.
But no she did actually come and look for me over breakfast.
I love that she was wearing this absolutely amazing Spider-Man
hoodie. Okay, which even zipped up over
the face and it looked like just a complete Spider-Man, lot of
Joe's awesome. But we got chatting about again
about style mental health about tech and she just said one you
speak about these things with such passion.
Yeah. Have you ever considered being a
speaker? No, I Go to conferences and I
attend them badly. I cannot speak.
Yeah. And it turned out that she
helped organize. And so they took in Stockholm.
Yeah. And said, yeah, you should
applying the call for papers is open.
Apply, put in a placeholder for now.
Don't stress yourself too much. Can't guarantee you're going to
be picked, but, you know, give it a go.
If you get picked, it's in a different country with people,
you don't know. The worst thing that you're
imagining in your Head, if it happens, you are never going to
see those people ever again. Yeah, you're completely
Anonymous. So I said, I would apply which,
again, triggered my anxiety because now, I've even though it
was just a friendly conversation.
I've now said, I'm going to do something.
So if I don't do it, I'm a bad person.
So I applied again, never expected to get picked, didn't
hear anything from it for a while?
Because as I've learned CFB closing dates and the dates that
you hear about whether or not your selected are not
necessarily next to each other and I was at a restaurant with
my in-laws on vacation a couple of months later.
Okay. And my phone went beep.
Yeah. Nice in the middle of a
restaurant. I gave a little scream and he's
like yeah. I've been selected.
That's so cool. And then it dawned on me.
Now you've got to ride a talk. Yeah, you gotta do it.
You gotta do it. So I think I must have put about
2:00 3:00 in that first talk. Learn so much along the way.
And yeah that got me to Stockholm and that is so cool.
It was it was absolutely not a plan thing in my life at all.
It was total Serendipity. Yeah and since his how much I
loved it I'm just really pleased that it happened.
Yeah. I can imagine how much, how much
did you get pushed into this? Kind of commitment of applying
in the first place? Because for me, if I never
wanted to be on stage, and if I never wanted to do that, that's
literally like me 10, 12 years ago, I would have been Never
never ever. But now that I've gotten a bit
more comfortable speaking and I'm really passionate about some
things in there. I'm like, I can see that, maybe
I'll apply, right? And when you get to that point
that application process gets easier, you might like postpone
it and do it a bit late, but eventually you'll do it and once
you then get in then you actually have to do it.
Yeah, it was that kind of similar for you as well.
I was at this one. It was just really.
I had never even considered it in the past.
Yeah. Yeah.
So it wasn't even on my radar of something that I should be
interested in my tibia needed, my self-confidence, and my
self-worth at the time, we're on the floor, so that there's just
no way that I'd have considered doing anything like that.
Because seriously, who am I to do this?
Yeah. And that conversation pushed me
quite a lot. Yeah.
Because it was the hole. I said that I would do something
just in a conversation and like you said, that made the
commitment in my head even though there was no commitment.
Now that made the commitment in my head.
Yeah. And it pushed meet after that,
it still took me about a week after that to actually fill it
in and do it. Yeah.
Our, which was have really hellish week the, I constantly
got this now in the back of my head, it's like, you promised to
do this, you know, you've got to do this.
Yeah. And I really To do this, but
you've got to do this. I recognize a lot in that, and I
think it says a lot about your first of all, you and also your
values, right? If you make a commitment to
someone else, it's completely different than making a
commitment to yourself. Yeah.
Absolutely. Absolutely, because they know,
and, you know, they know and you said, yes, so we gotta do that.
Yeah, we're gonna do this now. That's a, I recognize that 100%.
But you touched on 2018 and being kind of in a bad place
when it comes to mental health. And just Personal life and work
life kind of I'm assuming assimilating and both not going
great. Yeah.
Was it like one thing first and that led to the other thing.
Not going great. Or can you kind of walk us
through what happened there? To be honest, it's it really
goes back and starts in my childhood.
Mmm, arm, i-i've had mental health issues since before I was
ten, okay, it's I had to do this with a lot of my therapist.
We were talking about where it started.
And I figured out, I was about 7 or 8.
Okay. When I first really started to
struggle with this and I have is I have a huge issue with social
anxiety. Okay?
Said that, that is the first kind of one that goes out there.
So I can't handle being in rooms of people.
So it's lucky. I don't like go to big, massive
conferences, anything because that would be awful.
Yeah but I really can't do being with a group of people, so the
hole Waiting outside of class before going into class.
Would have me climbing the walls.
Yeah, arm school discos. I always went to them but it was
always a nightmare and I never felt good. and all of those
other things, when you're growing up, which should be
nice, easy, simple things to do just weren't, it's I never I
never really fit in, okay. That also really doesn't help
anything. It's, I had one or two friends
at school. I wasn't friendless, but I
didn't like have the big group of friends and I wasn't part of.
Yeah, I just wasn't really part of any social group had wanted
to friends and that was it. Yeah.
And I think as a child, you don't really notice what it is
that you're doing, and It gets you.
It does get you down even though you don't recognize what it is.
This is going to get really dark now, I apologize that you do end
up Well I ended up with suicide ideation from the age of seven
or eight. Yeah, which I never realized
wasn't a normal thing until I was speaking to a therapist
about it and apparently not everybody does that.
But it's a kind of thing that as I got older and I started to do
things. It's like oh it's some point.
I am going to get the self-confidence at some point.
This is going to stop and you push yourself through.
Keep on trying things keep on pushing yourself and it was just
2017, 2018. I think I just ran out of steam.
Yeah. And At that point.
I don't know. It's I didn't physically
collapse, but I definitely mentally collapsed.
Yeah, I've heard that happens first, right?
That mentally, you just can't handle it.
And then your physical reaction comes after the, yeah.
When you've just been exhausted. Yeah, no.
And I think it would, it's my partner.
Who really noticed something and she just said it.
You've got to speak to the doctor?
Yeah, I think it still took like two weeks after that before.
I actually got the the energy in the nerve to call the doctor and
to go. Yeah.
The doctor was amazing. I know that not everybody's
experience is the same here. So I feel so lucky that this was
my experience. Yeah.
But he did make a really nice joke actually at the end of the
appointment, when he'd written me, the referral letter arm
recommended, a therapist to me. So, you've got to go and find
one. This isn't something that we can
do, but I recommend talking to this person because for what
you've got, he's known to be good.
And I think I cried with relief and he asked what it was, I was
I was terrified of coming here. Yeah so what did you think I was
going to do? So I'm not going to help you.
Yeah that that is exactly what I was expecting you to say.
It's I was just really expecting just a comment back of this is
all in your head. When you know what it is all in
my head because it's in my brain, which is in my head.
Yeah. But I was just expecting a
everybody goes through this, you just gotta suck it up and deal
with it the same as everybody else does.
Yeah. And I wasn't actually expecting
to get the help and it's it's been a hard slog since then they
can imagine. I I've learned a lot about
myself doing this. Yeah.
One of the things I've learned is I'm not recovered and I'm
never going to be recovered, okay?
Interesting. I have coping mechanisms.
Yeah which helps and I accept the issues that I have which
oddly enough also helps, not fighting it all of the time and
knowing that, okay, these situations this is going to
happen. So you need to do XYZ to try and
make yourself feel safe. Yeah.
Taking those types of accommodations can really.
It doesn't take the issues away but it can help you cope with
them. Yeah, that's interesting.
There's a lot that goes through my mind.
But I mean, I talk to you before the show as well, and one of the
things that stood out to me, I mean, even when we talked about
going to conferences, right? You just vibing energy, even
when we met in the hallway, just now like you're amazing as a
person as a personality. So I would have never thought
that that was kind of in your past that you had to be
confronted with that and become aware of that and acknowledge
that. It is kind of within you in that
way and accommodate for it, like I would have never Ever imagined
that but I think a lot of people have those little little mental
health issues and they gradually are are larger or smaller
depending on the person and depending on what they do with
but a lot of people also swipe it under the rug.
Yeah. And I think probably that's when
you went to the doctor and you had kind of the expectation that
they would be like well swipe it under the rug like that's what
everyone else does but I don't think that's healthy.
I don't think that's sustainable.
It's really not. It's I saw in the Scottish.
That I'm done a sacar for Microsoft.
Did an awesome talk for the ending keynote and she made a
really nice point in that talk. Everybody has mental health.
Hmm some people have mental health problems.
Yeah but everybody has mental health and if you don't look
after your mental health then you're gonna get mental health
problems. Yeah.
And because of my predisposition because our of what I've been
through. Yeah, I have some serious mental
health issues, the not looking after it and the not taking care
of it. Is what?
It made it get really bad for me.
Exactly. Yeah.
And how do you take care of it. Now, what do you do now?
To kind of keep that in a healthy state or a healthier
State, what I do now is One, try and actively think about what my
current mental health state is. Okay.
So I will know sometimes that. Okay, I've got a depressive mood
coming on. Yeah, which can sometimes be a
couple of hours sometimes be a couple of days.
And if I catch it early enough then I can try and do something
to either Stave it off or to bypass it all together.
Yeah. Just try and figure out things
which are going to give me dopamine hit.
One of the things that my therapist taught me is it's
called the ABC model but there's multiple different ABC models
out there so please don't Google it because you will not get what
I did. Yeah but basically it's figure
out going What is something that you can do?
Doesn't have to be big? Just what is something that you
can do? Do it and then see what happens
in your head afterwards and really something as simple as
we're going to clean the kitchen.
Exactly. Okay.
So we're going to spend time cleaning the kitchen, five
minutes, get silly, and event is like a, did I get something from
that? Yeah.
And figuring out those little bits of, okay, if I'm feeling
bad before, it gets to the point where I can't force myself to do
anything. Force myself to do something.
Yeah. So catching it early is one of
the things that I can do the other one is realizing my
triggers. Hmm.
So being in big groups of people is still absolutely one of them
when I go to conferences, I'm before my talk, I will make sure
that I've got plenty of charge on my phone and make sure that
I've got my power bank with me. Yep, an e-book.
Obviously, if I'm speaking I've always got my computer so I can
always have something to hide behind.
Mmm, I really love it when conferences have quiet rooms,
okay? Because they can your then not
in the crowd, you can go in the quiet room, you can sit down
with no expectations and you can chill.
Yeah, speaker, a spectacular. Definitely one of the huge
advantages of being is because when you have a speaker and when
you can truly just disappear, yeah, that that is help my
mental health at conferences so much.
Zh. I know that I have issues with
noise, so I now always travel with a noise cancelling
headphones. If I know I'm going to be in a
public space. Yeah.
Arm and it used to be really bad as like I can't put my
headphones on because that's so important light but it's like no
I need to disappear. I'm going to put my headphones
on. Yeah, I've just ordered a pair
of loop earplugs okay they're not they don't cut out all of
the sound but they cut it down a little bit.
Yeah. So I'm going to To try those.
I've heard great things about those from other people.
So I want to try those myself and they're not ridiculously
expensive. So they don't work, have won't
be happy. It's not the worst thing in the
world. Yeah.
So those are the types of things that I try and do to keep myself
grounded a little bit. Yeah interesting thing that you
said is here I come in and I'm full of energy and it's until
you appeared. Yeah I was not no I yeah, I was
I was not happy in the car coming here.
Okay. It was I was I always get
nervous before doing a podcast or before doing a talk but it's
more than that I was just really like, okay it's you've got to go
and speak to people and it's that scary thing in my head.
Still, yeah. When you came up and started the
conversation that takes that away quite nicely, but I've seen
it at other conferences and it would be so cool.
If more conferences could do it, different stickers that you can
put on your batch from stickers that say, nope, I don't want to
talk to anybody. I'm really sorry but I just need
to be by myself here. Yeah.
Stick as it's a, I will talk to anybody in anything.
It's fine, let's do that. And one in the middle, which is
the one that I would want, which is, I cannot come up to you and
start a conversation, but please feel free to start a
conversation with me. Somebody talks to me, I can, I
can just talk the ground from underneath them.
I don't mind talking, I hate myself for it afterwards, and
after this podcast, I'm going to sit in the car and think, oh
gosh, what did I just say? But I can do that if somebody
comes up and initiate the conversation.
Yeah. And then it doesn't matter.
That's a big place because I'm with somebody and we're having a
conversation and we have that connection And that is a
speaker. It's also really cool because
like you said, you give you a talk and people come up to you
afterwards and talk to you and that just helps me.
No end. Yeah.
It is a works. Yeah.
So if anybody does see mirror conference, please come up and
say hello. And I said, yeah, it's it's
really interesting because first of all I recognized a lot when I
went to that conference and it was super busy and there were a
lot of people I sat on a couch and I just pretended to be on my
phone. I didn't actually do anything, I
was checking stuff but I knew nothing was there because I
wanted to be alone. Yeah, and people came up to me
and said, like, joining us sounds like in a bit like I just
need a moment and I think I needed to recharge my batteries.
I need to be like, okay prepare and we can go again but that
takes a lot of self-awareness right to know that, okay?
You just need a moment right now and don't push yourself through
this. And also if I'm talking to
strangers, I always or sometimes have regrets of not saying
things or of say I should have said other things and I eat
myself up about it and When I talk to people, people don't
recognize that I do in a conversation or the way I
present myself or even presenting, you know, when you
meet a team for the first time or when you're in the room with
strangers and you have to do your introduction round.
Yeah. That gives me a lot of anxiety.
Yeah, a check. I checked my pulse because my
heart is beating. I'm a quick, a my turn and then
I do the thing and everything is fine.
It's just, that gives me a lot of anxiety.
I don't like being in that situation.
I can totally go with that one. Yeah, but I I've accepted that
that happens like if I know that it's there, that's the
awareness. I acknowledge that it is there
and I have my coping mechanisms. Like sometimes I take deep
breaths and I know it's coming, but it takes a lot of awareness
to be aware of your awareness, to aware you to be aware of your
mental health State. Also the situation that you're
in and how you react on certain things and also accept that that
is fine. Right, there's no right or wrong
in there now and allowing yourself to Do that too.
Yeah and it once I think that's why.
When I accepted it I am never going to get better.
It's always going to be there. Yeah.
Allowing myself to take those accommodations which I wouldn't
do before. Yeah, just to help tremendously
before I started therapy was like a there were people in this
world that have it way worse than me.
And if I allow myself that accommodation things like the
headphones. Yeah.
If I give myself that accommodation then you know who
am I insulting? Who really needs it when you
know what? I really need it?
Yeah, but I wouldn't let myself see that at the time.
So When she both have the awareness and you are nice
enough to yourself to accept that, you can take do the things
that help you. Yeah, that that is where things
can start to improve for you. Yeah, yeah.
I've learned, I am so bad at taking care of myself, right?
I am horrible at receiving compliments.
I am incredibly critically, a critical of other people and
especially myself and I don't Like celebrate the small
victories. Yeah, I don't get myself a gift.
I don't give myself a little break.
I have really hard time doing that.
Yeah, well from my point of view, I give that to everyone
else. I'm like you've worked so hard
like it's time for a break or you did a great job or like
obviously you deserve that but to myself like I am just really
bad at that. Yeah, I recognize that totally a
horribly bad at that. And I've also recognize that
that is not healthy. Now you need to take a break
here and there you you can't go 120 percent all the time because
that at some point that's going to break you and I don't think
it has broken me. I think I've had moments where I
had to be like, okay it's time to step down.
Actually take a break, say no to things, which I'm also
struggling with. Yeah.
But then afterwards I'm so happy I did.
So happy that I said, no, that I said, no.
I actually don't want to do this or no, we can't switch TimeWise
because I have plans and like, I planned for this, like I would
say no in the moment feel And then be so happy afterwards that
I did. So, yeah.
And yeah, it takes time. It takes awareness and
experience to be like, okay, these are kind of my boundaries
and and stay within those for yourself, right?
Yeah. It's make that's super
important. It's something that I haven't
quite got yet. I have been so busy this year
and I think I'm really privileged because I have been
so busy this year. Yeah.
Then at the same point, I've also been over the top, I have
said yes to things that I shouldn't have said, yes to,
it's like, well, wow, you've asked me to do this?
Well, I can't say no to you because then I'm a really bad
person I am and so I've done. I was planning on doing one or
two things a month maximum. Yeah and I think ended up doing
four or five things a month, sometimes that's a lot more.
Like that's a lot more and I was exhausted and I've only just
recently started to say to people.
No, I can't do that yet. Yeah.
So I think I've just had a request, you know what?
I joined somebody for forgotten what it was for to do something
online and I said I really want to But not this year.
Yeah, it's at january-february fine, but I have on the 1st of
December, I've got one final meet up and then I am done until
the end of the year. Yeah.
And I am, then I'm done until the end of the year.
I'm going to start a streaming, but I'm going until the end of
the year, except, for my stream. Yeah.
See, I'm not good at this. Yeah, no.
I mean, I recognize that as well.
I think it, Comes. Because first of all those
things that you do probably give you a lot of energy and you love
doing. Yeah, that's the same for me
right comes from a place of love and a place of passion.
If I could, I would say yes to everything, squeeze it.
As in a short timeframe as possible, except I know that
doesn't work out. I can give my 100% to all those
things in. That short amount of time, it
doesn't work know, at some point.
You get tired. You need to stop.
It's yeah, recharge those batteries like yeah.
It's it is another issue that That I have.
My therapist actually told me once to turn up, he gave me an
order. Yeah, only time he's ever done
it because he said, I am not here to tell you anything.
I'm here to talk to you and help you find out what you need to
do. Yeah.
But one session is like, no, I don't want you to do anything in
the evening until the next session.
Yeah, I want you to give yourself a week off.
See how that feels. And I had one of the biggest
breakdowns in my life that week. Yeah, I am because I am sitting
on the sofa and my head, still going a thousand miles an hour.
Then in the Netherlands, 23 years a thousand miles an hour.
I am and It wasn't doing anything with it.
So I was just on the sofa. My anxiety was just getting
higher and higher, and I think I have the session on the Tuesday
by the Thursday, I was upset. And by the Friday, I was just
absolutely collapsed and the session that we had the week
after it was. How did it go?
Oh yeah. I've never felt worse.
Yeah. And we had a chat about it like
yeah. You are not going to use a
language, he used because otherwise you can't put the
podcast out. You're in trouble.
If you doing, you're in trouble. If you don't.
Yeah. You are going to have that out
because you can't work 8 hours a day and then do things for six
hours in the evening. Yeah, doesn't work.
Seven days a week that that's not healthy but apparently, I
also can't not do that physically.
I can't do the work all the time and mentally I can't not do it
because I To keep my brain occupied.
Yeah, and please take that is slowly improving.
Okay? That it's something that I
really struggle with so that, that was kind of, okay?
I either have to accept that. I'm going to have a breakdown.
Maybe once or twice a year and try and catch it before it hits
and do something. Yeah.
Arm or I'm going to be climbing the walls every evening and then
I'm gonna have a breakdown that way.
So, I opted for the break down a couple of times a year.
Exactly. And on oddly enough, that has
been a great choice. It because I I can feel in
advance when it's going to hit and you can try and temper it at
the time and try and okay. Like I know I'm going to burn
out. Now you need to calm down.
So I reckon we're going to do this.
We've got these commitments. Yeah.
And after that you're going to build Lego.
You're going to watch a Marvel movie.
You're going to go for walk through the dunes, you're just
going to Do something, which isn't that?
And try and make sure that you even if it's not physical rest,
even if you're still doing something to occupy yourself,
you're going to try and make sure that it's not Work in air
quotes. Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense. I think it's really, really cool
that you have that kind of self-awareness.
I don't think I have that yet. I do have like, pillars in my
life, in my professional life. And in my social life, my
girlfriend, my mom, like my siblings, my friends that are
like, okay. Like you said, no, a bunch of
times you're doing all these things like like take care of
yourself. Do they keep me in?
Check in that way, where they challenge me in that way as
well? Aren't you taking to Much like,
should you have said, yes, because this is all back to back
to back and that for me, are kind of my guidelines, a, my
checks in my personal life because I know if I wouldn't
have those, then I would run into a wall and have to like,
get up and learn from that experience.
Some, I'm really happy. I have those like people in my
life and I think that's needed and healthy as well both in your
professional life. Yeah, absolutely.
No life. Yeah, it's my son's managed to
help me. Absolutely broke my heart but
he's managed to help me a few times.
I am in just my point of view. When my son says to me, are you
going to be home? Are you home?
Are you home now? Of you got to go again.
Yeah it's like okay I'm doing too much.
Exactly. Yeah.
If that's their expectation. Yeah.
It's okay. Now I have this and then I'm not
going to do something for x amount of time.
Yeah. And I did actually say no.
Talk in the UK in December. As I came.
I would do it. Remote, I don't mind doing it
remote. Family is going to my son's
going to be in bed. I can go to my studio.
I can give this talk. That's fine.
Yeah. But no, I'm not going to be in
person and they really wanted somebody in person.
So awesome is like let me know. If you've got another slot next
year that you want filling. I would love to do this talk.
But no not now. Yeah, exactly.
I am home now until the end of January, I like that.
That is the promise that I gave to my son.
Yeah. And I'm not going to break that
promise. Yeah, I like that a lot.
I invite a lot of people on as a guest on the podcast and some
people tell me like okay this is not like I can do it from eggs
day. I can't I have way too many
commitments and I'm like okay these people know their
boundaries, like this is where healthy.
I'm not going to push, that's it.
I appreciate their feedback as well.
And I'm not going to overstep those boundaries.
No, I'm not gonna push in that way, either.
I think that's a really nice one today.
I did have one conference this year, which did overstep the
boundary. Yeah.
And it caused me to say yes, to something that I should have
said no to. Anyway, yeah arm but more than
that it meant that when I had to say no after all, I just felt
truly awful and I I regret that I didn't keep to my boundaries
as I should have done. And I'm actually really angry
that the conference didn't take my initial answer.
Yeah, exactly. And it was like, okay, I don't
know if I can do that date. It's like Let me get back to
you. Yeah.
And they kept on pushing and pushing and pushing and it's not
about find out. I'm just going to say yes but
we'll see what happens. Yeah, and it was a, I should not
have said yes. I feel bad because I drop them
in it because I said yes. And then I couldn't go but at
the same point, I was brutally honest, upfront and then carried
on being pushed to it. Yeah.
So I think the fact that you recognize those boundaries and
you don't push people to it. Well, thank you, no problem.
No, I appreciate that. And and I think my sense of
appreciation is like that because I have a hard time doing
that myself. So when other people do that I'm
like, yeah, that's what I want to be able to do as well when it
gets to that point. Yeah, I have too many things
that I can just say, like, no then and then is better because
I, otherwise I can and that's it.
There's no F4, but like that's it, take it or leave it,
otherwise we leave it. That's also fine.
I really enjoyed this conversation.
So far, one of the lingering questions I have is I think If
you have mental health issues, if they're small or big taking
that first step in seeking help, I go into a professional or
going to your partner or friends and family in that way and
talking about it. I think that is necessary to get
out of it or to get that sense of awareness to get that mirror
in front of you. But I also think that that's my
assumption in there, that a lot of people would struggle with
that or see just then an uphill battle with that.
Yeah, what advice would you give for people to kind of climb that
hill in that way? I think, first of all,
absolutely, the reason why I Talk about mental health at
conferences. The reason why I said to you,
yeah, I would love to come on your podcast and talk about
mental health is because it is such a taboo subject that it
makes it hard to get started. Yes, I knew that I needed help.
Probably six to 12 months before I asked for it, but I was just
terrified of actually saying to somebody.
I think I have this issue. so, I think it's Outside of what the
person can do for society, as a whole.
We need to start removing that to do.
And it, I've seen it more and more conferences, excuse me.
I have seen it are in general discussions and we're going the
right way. Yes, there's a long way to go
but we're going the right way that that taboo is so slowly
starting to be eroded. For the person themselves.
The best thing that I can suggest from my experience, is
find somebody that you can trust with it.
Yeah, and that is such a hard thing to do.
I have two groups of friends, one group tried to be
supportive, but the way that they were supportive, just made
it ten times worse for me, okay? And one group was actually
What've ya and the people that made it worse, they really
weren't trying to be nasty. To me, I have had the people
that were nasty but these people they weren't they didn't
appreciate what they were saying, okay?
So they were the people that would at the point where I am
struggling, To even show up for something.
Would still say you just got to push yourself to do it.
The more you do it, the easier it gets.
Yeah, they didn't respect your boundaries.
No and it's like, okay, so I push myself to do it.
And I made myself worse and worse and worse.
And I left numerous work functions in tears because I was
trying to I don't know live up to people's expectations is
maybe not quite it, but it's about the best description that
I can get into my head at the moment.
And but the people that said, those things in their smile
more, if you smile more than you'll feel better.
Because when you smile it releases dopamine, it's like
honestly, I am really pleased that for some people that works
that way. But, ya know, if you have some
serious, mental health issues smiling doesn't release
dopamine. The actually does the opposite
because you smile, you do everything that people tell you
should be doing to make yourself feel better.
Yeah, as many doesn't work. And there's a well, what the
hell is wrong with me? It's everybody's saying if I do
this, it's going to improve and it's not.
What is it with me? And then just really drive to
deep into yourself. Yeah.
The people that you need to find talk to other people, I needed
to find to talk to Were the people that actually listened
and didn't offer Solutions but ask more what can we do?
Yeah everything that works for me all the things that I've said
all the things that I've said it talks I always say the same
thing. It is my story.
This is what worked for me. Yeah.
It might not work for any other person on the planet but it's
what worked for me and you need to find your own things.
So somebody's if you're speaking to somebody, then you need
somebody who's going to S? What do you need me to do?
Yeah, what can I do to support? And to help you, I have people
that it's okay. What do I need to look out for?
So I know when something's happening and then what do I
need to do at that time? Yeah and they are the people
that can provide you with the most support Absolutely.
I'm so it's for me aside from just getting that energy and
courage to actually go to a doctor and say I have mental
health problems, I need help. Yeah, the other thing is just
make sure that you if you have someone that you're talking to
make sure that it's somebody that is going to be there and do
the things that you need and not the things that they either want
to do to help you or think that they need to do to help you
rather than actually listening to you and and helping you.
Yeah, exactly. They need to help you and your
own way, right? Not what they think you need but
what you actually exactly. And it's and that's different
for everybody. It's I gave a talk at NBC Oslo.
Hopefully, it's going to be on YouTube some because aside from
the fact that I was what I'm looking for.
Embarrassed I am embarrassed that I spent half an hour on
stage, almost in tears, but it was such an important thing for
me to say. Yeah.
And I've no idea where I was going with this.
I warned you. This was gonna happen.
No worries. I got halfway through a sentence
and it's gone now. Oh, yes!
Me and my co-presenter Denny. Yeah, then at the clerk we have
totally different needs. Okay?
Arm he needs. Crowds and bustle and energy.
Yeah. And that would drive me.
Absolutely. Under the floor, if if I'm in
the middle of her depressive, mood or anxiety attack.
Yeah, I do not need that. I need the opposite of that.
I need somebody. Just to be with me, they don't
necessarily have to say anything.
Yeah, I might be incapable of talking to them.
But I need them to be there. So I know they're there, where
is he? Needs that energy and social
interaction and everything else? And that's why we decided to do
the tour together because we are just so different.
But we both have the same mental health issue.
It's just what we need is difficult is yeah, it's totally
different. Yeah, so we actually bounced it
off of each other quite nicely with the whole.
Okay. So you need that.
I think you saying it covid-19. Cuz it meant that he had to be
alone. Yeah, covid-19 for me because I
didn't have to go into social situations, I appreciate that.
It was a horrible thing for the world and tragic, but for me
personally being locked up in my office in my home.
Yeah, that your compass so, yeah, that totally put me in my
comfort zone. Yeah.
So, yes, I having somebody that can listen to you and give you
what you need, whether that's silent, whether that's telling
you to get over yourself. If that's what works for you
really not for me. Please don't do that to me, or
just talking to you normally like nothing's going on.
Just so you have that sense of normalcy, whatever you need that
person to do. If you've got somebody that can
be, that support that is going to be Absolute gold for you.
Yeah, yeah. That's what you need.
And then taking that first step is a lot smaller in that way.
If you trust that person, they're also going to react in
the way that you expect them to. Yeah.
Because you have that trust built up States.
Thank you so much for coming on and sharing this.
I think I agree with you. When I'm, when you said we're
opening more about it, it is not a taboo subject, it shouldn't be
at least and I think we're trending towards the better in
that way. So, thank You for coming on and
sharing your story as well. Thank you for having me.
Is there anything you would still like to share with our
audience as we're rounding off? No, I think I've pretty much
covered everything at so yeah. Look after yourselves.
And yeah, yeah, sure. Once you have that link of the
conference talking also send it to me.
I'll look at it. And also I'm going to put all
Stacey's links to our socials in the comment section below.
Check her out. Let her know you came from our
show. And with that being said, thanks
for listening. We'll see you on the next one.
Bye.