Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akio and if
you're interested in making a true difference in your
organization and solving real problems, this episode is for
you. Joining me.
Today is no grandfather odd at her core, she's a sensitive
Daredevil, who lives the principles of change in order to
make a true difference and it really shines through in this
conversation. So real good one.
I'll put our socials in description below.
Check her out. And with that being said, enjoy
the episode. Do you take like particular care
of those kind of First Impressions that you have with,
like, a new team or or new Connections in that way?
Yeah. A lot lot, to be honest.
Yeah. Because you can only get a first
impression once. Yeah.
And I'm quite sensitive to what is happening.
So I'm quite used to really looking into.
What is this all about? Yeah, so trying to find the
patterns trying to find the culture, trying to see how the
behavior is and where that does help, and where it doesn't.
And and that's so much information and it really helps
to get things going, the way I need them to go.
I could imagine that I wasn't consciously thinking about like
a first impression. Yeah.
But we had some new colleagues joining our team, for example
and one of the existing team members they had like a pair
programming session and I think it was one of their first
interactions. Yeah.
And that person got so overwhelmed of the domain
knowledge and the technical expertise that because I leak
that was already on the team suggested.
Well, next time we'll switch it around on.
A. And then over the weekend, the
new colleague actually was dreading that experience.
They were so overwhelmed that they weren't looking forward to
switching it around and then showing their kind of knowledge
in that sense. And I, I, I was kind of sad by
that because that's a, I guess, a big impact.
Someone has is unlike a first impression raising the bar.
Exactly. Yeah.
And that thought person then dealt with, like, feedings of
imposter, yeah, feelings of not being good enough because I
asked like what was your first impression on anything on the
project on the domain? Main on the people.
It's an interesting domain. It's an iot domain.
And then that was what he responded with.
Yeah. And I was like that, that
feedback needs to come to the holy, right?
Because they need to be aware that they can have such an
impact. Yeah.
Like it's a good thing to be of a certain level of technical
expertise and to know the domain.
Like it's a good thing but the way it comes across can have
negative side effects as well. So did the colleague stay?
Yeah, they stayed and they had a conversation and it's not a bit
better. Like it doesn't come from a bad
place in Case. But I feel like being aware of
kind of the impact that you can have specially on a first
impression. Yeah, I felt that my colleague
that was already on the team needs to be aware of that.
Yeah, and I think with that, they'll do probably adapt their
behavior accordingly. Yeah, I feel, I feel if you
start with someone or something, yeah, it's very important to
just find like, truly try to see what happens.
Yeah. So in order to be successful in
anything, you need to truly understand why things art, they
are like how they are today. Yeah, because they grew for some
reason in what it is today. And if it needs to move to
anything else, you really truly need to understand what happened
before that created this outcome of today.
Yeah, I kind of need to see both the culture, the patterns, the
the system that's behind it. The way it's organized, the
contribution of people how how people are used to doing it
together and in all of their jacquet need to kind of
understand. Is it helpful today and moving
forward or Or doesn't it at any value?
Any more do we need to change it?
Yeah, for me. Organizational change.
Like, just the things you mentioned.
It's a it's so much like it entails a lot and seeing kind of
patterns through history and how that can kind of explain the
future or the path that we're moving forward to, for me,
that's a humongous task. Like I don't even know how you
would start with that. Do you have like, it's the start
always kind of the same in orientation?
Or is it different even every time?
Yeah. To me, it feels the same but the
input circuit is very different, of course, but I am quite
consistent in that. Put it like that.
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm not sure how you do it. Yeah, I'm just walking around
and sniffing up what happens? Yeah, I mean it's it hangs
around. You can feel it if you come into
one of those rooms and or in a building and you see those
people interact that you kind of get his first feel of hunched
like what's really happening out here?
Yeah. Yeah and I think It's just a
matter of trying to stay without any judgment, it's trying to be
really curious and open to understand it in the context of
what is happening there. And then, yeah.
And then there's in my head decent little.
Well, it sounds as if it's just pure analysis but it's not.
It's, I kind of look at what's the process is around here?
What's the organization? Like, how does it help or not?
Yeah, I'm looking at like, What's the culture?
Like I do. They interact.
Is it constructive? Is it?
Let's try it. I striving to be the best.
Or are they? Truly collaborating.
Is there any openness or closeness amongst them?
That doesn't help them forward. Yeah.
Is there any leadership issues that need to be resolved is
leadership able to truly facilitate what that team are
those teams need. And then there's also the system
like the cultural system like Like if you would change every
person in a team or if you would change a manager of a team like
10 times in five years and it still doesn't work, then it's
not depending on the person's then something else is happening
interesting and if so if you kind of sniff into what's
happening over there then it gets truly fascinating and all
those little pieces of input, they kind of make this puzzle.
Yeah. And then you need to gain of
understand like what's the most important route goes to the
things that I'm Seeing due to the patterns that I'm seeing.
Yeah. What's the most important thing
that needs to change around and then you need to pick the right
thing to do first, I can imagine you ever experienced that I do a
lot of things naturally and I feel like, I mean, I guess it's
kind of an artifact of that like I'm naturally curious.
So if there's an organization, I want to understand why things
are the way they are, why people behave the way they behave, and
it's more of an innate curiosity and it's not something that's
strategic that I can. Take with me and then apply
somewhere. I'm trying to learn that because
I think it can, it can help my skill set and more aware of the
theory, and then kind of layout, for example, all those puzzle
pieces and then kind of decide based on history and experience.
Yeah, what I think we should pick up next or what, the
biggest puzzle should be, we should work on the piece but a
lot of it is still kind of got feeding experience-based
learning in that way. I think I think I'll always
always be like that. Yeah this game truly need to
trust. Your intuition to I mean it's
not something that comes with Russian a lonely.
Yeah you can't really learn the trick to do that.
I can imagine. Yeah.
Once you've decided like what to
work on like are you 100% in or is there still doubt or or do
you test those assumptions first or how do you like take that
first step in that way? Yeah, that's an interesting
question because I think it kind of depends on the assignment so
this assignment gets you the context.
Yeah assignment gives you the Text in where they expect you to
move and what they expect you to do.
So that gives you kind of the boundaries but I am not that
limited by boundaries, so I I it's just a piece of
information. Yeah, an assignment or contacts
is just just information. So I understand why they asked
it and what they don't expect And I think, then I do my
sniffing around and once I get like, once I get my analysis
kind of complete in my head and I find the most important root
causes in whatever angle they are.
Ya then I think it's very important to just feed that back
as open as a stress transparent as possible because I think they
really have the right to understand what is truly
happening. Yeah, exactly.
And that would give them the opportunity to choose because
they don't always do, but it would give them the opportunity
to choose. To truly fix it.
Exactly. And if that's not what's going
to happen, that's perfectly fine.
But if they do, then they also know the honesty and the
straightforwardness. And, yeah, the, how I put it
with them here, and I truly believe that, if your intentions
are pure, yeah, you can say almost anything interesting.
If you do it without a judgment, if you do it.
Looking forward, if you do it from a true.
Meaning of making things better. If that is your true intention,
you can say everything. So that conversation back to
this. Those people that asked me to
come and look around and do something for them.
If you start having that true conversation with them, it quite
often opens their eyes because it's different angles to what
they don't do often. They don't often get feedback.
You don't often get the true information anymore.
What do you think that is? Because is it because they
operate as such a level that people don't dare to give them
that feedback. Like my manager has asked me
before, can you be 100% honest with me?
Because it feels like you are. Yeah.
And I'm like, I think I am. It's a beautiful device.
I'm Not sure, right? Because there's an innate sense
of hierarchy. I might not even know it.
Yeah, but I don't know if I can because you are my manager at
the end of the year, I have a conversation with you.
It's about salary, it's about performance.
It's about my role in this organization.
Yeah. So then I don't know.
And it's also about your image in a company.
Yeah. And and how others perceive you
because he will be the one talking about you to others
which makes gives you growth opportunities or not.
Yeah yeah I am. At this moment, I work as a
freelancer. So that gives me kind of instant
Independence and autonomy. Yeah, but I've been working for
a large company over 20 years and I have I think I have kind
of a unique thing in me. That makes me independent of
hierarchy. So for me I truly believe that
if sings things need to be said or done, you need to say them or
do them from what I just said from the best intention.
Yeah. And if people around you or
above you or whoever can't deal with that, that's not really my
problem. I can't help it if you can't
deal with it. So either either I didn't say it
right enough like clear enough or or carefully enough or
honestly enough. So I can try to rephrase and try
again but if We can't deal with that.
I used to go up. Yeah, up the chain because then
the problem is not going to be soft on that level in to go up
without without cheating or without I do bite by post them.
Right? I let them know him before end.
Yeah. But you need to go up in order
to truly solve it and I've always done that.
I've never felt any yeah. Anything holding me back from
doing that. Interesting.
Yeah, it's only teach you that because I I didn't As a software
engineer, I started out in operations.
Yeah, and I had a mentor and he kind of taught me how to do
that. Like that wasn't innate in me
and because I saw him do that and get stuff done.
Really solve problems. Yeah, I'll just put a bandaid on
it, but actually solve an underlying issue.
Yeah, I was like, oh, that's possible.
And he's like, escalating is not a bad thing.
No, it's not a bad thing at all. People think it's - people
think, oh, you're overstepping somewhere.
You're telling on someone. But that's not what you're
doing. It's not.
No it's and it depends on your intentions.
Yeah, yeah, I can. Repeat that often enough that's
what that's what allows it or not.
So if your goal is to just pause everybody and get them whatever
fired or hurt some way that's wrong intention but if you do it
from a, I want to truly make it better perspective and I've had
the right conversations and I've tried but I couldn't get through
because whatever practical thing, then you need to go up.
Yeah. There's someone teach you that.
Yeah. Or is it kind of a self learned
skill? I think I've always At that.
I think I remember. I remember me as a child.
This is one. Brilliant example.
I was I think I was like 14 or so, I was in high school.
Yeah. And I had to be home in time
for. I don't know.
I kind of recall the reason but I just felt I need to be home in
time. It was important to me.
Yeah. And then this teacher, he throw
the bell rang. Our was done, I needed to go,
and he just kept on talking and I was like, yeah, I need to go.
Time's up to bad press over. I'm leaving and he was just
standing in front of the door like you're not going.
I said well that's too bad for you but it's of school time now.
So I'm free to go. So I have a few really good day.
Bye. Bye.
I'm leaving. Yeah, and I think I've always
had that. Yeah.
Principal thing of how it should be.
Hmm. You're not scared of those
conversations either because me and especially early on, like
the more green you are, the less experienced you have.
Sometimes I was not looking. Looking forward to like,
conversations with people, in higher leadership, and
especially if something messed up, or I needed to explain
things, like, I would get nervous.
And now, the more I've done that, the more I realize that
like nervousness is good and I didn't have to be that nervous
like everyone is in this together, and we're all moving
forward. Yeah.
But yet still, I was nervous and I wasn't looking forward to
those conversations. I've always liked them.
That's good. I always had the feeling that I
was like, oh I got a piece of information that person is truly
missing. Yeah.
And I'm going to help him so much, by making me.
Understand where are the keys to unlock this Hidden Gem?
Hunter can just improve. That's amazing.
And of course, sometimes those mostly guys are quite
intimidating, right? I mean, sometimes they've
reputation of shouting around and bullying and blah, blah.
But they do have that. And then I'm going to in my head
like, well, I'm just gonna say it, if it doesn't hear it.
That's okay. Yeah, I'll just move on.
I don't mind if you can't hear it.
That's, that's the perfect final outcome.
Yeah, and I kind of, what does your help me is?
I got to play around with rows of leery, so I kind of
understood how this it is a model that explains how to be
above and beneath, okay? And and how to how to
communicate again Stand Together.
And it's fascinating how you can influence the conversation using
that model to yeah to to to bend it into the directory.
You needed to go, interesting. Yeah, Rose of Larry's that.
Yeah, okay, I'll check it out after.
Yeah. Check it out.
It's going to soften the in the description.
Yeah, it's good. Because I love like, I've done a
communication training, it was called Insight in influence.
Oh, that's me in there. You do a lot of role playing and
you take a certain conversations.
Style. Right?
If I really want to do a discussion, I can only do
certain phrases or only keep holding this discussion.
And then, at some point, I see where I hit the wall, we're
discussing doesn't really make sense anymore.
Then after retrieve information, I have to ask questions and
really do active listening and trying to understand this pull
and push tiles. Right?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's practicing.
It's really brilliant. I really like that.
Yeah. Because you still have play it
like consciously and in different situation I do because
I then realize, okay, this is not working.
Because I've done that because it was like a five-day training
course, and it was like, really intense.
You were there from 9 in the morning.
You would exit at like 6:00 or 7:00.
Yeah, it was also brought, which was a whole experience in, and
of its own. But throughout that I was like,
okay, this is not work anymore. I have to switch, like, I
genuinely consciously can switch.
And I have my preferred style, like it's kind of you can see in
the podcast, like, I like Advocate listening.
I like trying to understand them in eight curious.
So, that might mean my default style, but if I do need to get
stuff done, I can't only retrieve information.
Some point. I have to make an argument.
I have to make a point. I have to inspire in a different
way as well. Yeah.
And figuring out what works best and when to apply what?
Or even building that relationship.
So you can do that. Yeah, I think that's very
valuable. It is.
And I think you say building a relationship that can take time
but it can also be done in an instant mmm, like, and that has
to do with intention again. Yeah.
Because if you're ever, For one moment, when I stepped into a
room of a manager, like five or six layers above me, I needed to
tell him something really ugly. Okay.
That's very ugly. Yeah.
It had to do with him too. And I remember coming into that
office and he would not have time for me.
He would just be honest. Emailing and he would just have
you just ignore me coming in. I really and I was like, okay is
this, how are we going to do this conversation?
No way, yeah, this is a good start.
So I was going to sit on his desk like next to him and I was
literally Above him because he was still sitting on this chair
and I looked at him and I busy today.
Yeah, I kind of forced him to do it.
I just went into his space. He had to do something with me.
Yeah. And then he like he looked up
and then we both had this grin on her face and I kind of won
the first battle. That's hilarious.
It was cool. Yeah.
And that was done, I could say anything and he would just
listen. And he later also a few times
later, he would come back to me, said, how did I do that?
Did it help? And how To proceed and then we
got this coaching relation and that kind of worked out.
So it can also be done in an instant without all this style
switching, or about without adjusting yourself that much.
Yeah, it's also a matter of, and that's playing with rows of
leery. It's also about being on the
same level and not accepting the dominance, or arrogance, or of
another, and just getting at the same height.
Yeah. Or depth, loathe, how do you say
that the other? So let's go.
The same level, interesting. I like that.
You said that. You also got feedback from him,
like, how it was perceived in how it came across.
It's something I didn't do consciously, but I wanted to
know, again, probably from a sense of curiosity.
I wanted to know how I came across.
Yeah, because I would grab a colleague randomly.
I would say this conversation was really difficult, wasn't
looking forward to it. Yeah, I don't know how I came
across and with that feedback with their feedback, I will go
to others and see if kind of that puzzle made sense from the
different pieces of feedback and that would then be okay.
Do I need Work on this. Do I like this?
How I come across to any to change anything?
What can I do? Better in the future.
Yeah, and I did it very much early on, I think, also, because
of more insecurities I guess. But it helps you to kind of see
yourself in that interaction. Exactly.
Is very important. Yeah, I think is valuable do
that I like that. You did that as well?
Yeah. Has it ever backfired where you
tried to convey certain pieces of information might not have
been what they wanted to hear. So they act At like, they didn't
want to hear that. I think I kind of block that
out. That's good.
It's not that important to me if they want to hear it.
Yeah. So some stupid but I really mean
it. It's not that important.
So it's what I can bring. Yeah.
And they can either take it or not and both is fine.
I think it has to do with I don't often have a judgment.
Yeah. And and staying without a
judgment, makes it possible to not disturb the relation.
Well, having interesting content going up and down between
persons. And I think I had, I had like,
every of course I had assignments or, or jobs or that
didn't work out that. Well, of course, I did,
everybody does. And then you learn But I'm it's
I don't think it's related to what I had to say or to how I
said it. I think it's the more related to
underlying values that don't match or company culture that
that where I don't fit. Yeah if the culture is an
example very political or very aimed at short-term success and
I come there with the intention to do structurally things.
That are helpful in the longer term.
Yeah, they are not going to be able to hear that.
It's going to clash understand and it's fine.
And I don't belong there at that moment in time.
Yeah. And that's also fine.
I like that a lot because accepting that it that is a
thing that you cannot control allows you to move forward.
So much easier than if you were like okay, was it something?
I said it wasn't how it came across.
Like is it something I can control?
Yeah. And then probably because it's a
class. You're not like able to get that
feedback. So accepting what has happened
and accepting it. Might have been out of your
control. Allows you to move forward
faster. I feel like yeah and making sure
it doesn't become a clash. Yeah, it's just the one facto
one experiences hits and how I stand in this assignment thing.
And then you have this conversation like okay well I
don't think we really match then it's just also just an
observation and just okay. Then then that's it.
That's perfectly fine, I'm just thanks a lot for time.
I learned a lot and looking forward to seeing you again at
this moment it's not the right place to be but perfect.
Yeah, it seems How you come across this?
Very first, all genuine and I can see that.
You're laying out, things objectively, that you have kind
of that. You're not really there to
judge, right? You put things in perspective,
you give it straight as is and objectively.
And I think it's a valuable skill, but I don't know if it
can be taught, if it can be learned or if you would just
have it in a clean them, I think I am.
It's another book thingy. But I once read a book, it's
called the books. It's written by the our Banner
Institute. Yeah, and it describes
brilliantly and easily how how to interact without having a
judgment. So it's something that you can
get a lot of insight in and you can understand your own position
in that a lot. But I think it also comes from
both nature and nurture. So I think that during life,
everybody lives their life and life's throw stuff at you and
some stuff is nice and some stuff is not that nice.
And at moments that that happens, you have this chance to
to decide how you're going to deal with that.
So, of course, you're going to feel heard or angry or sad, or,
or a victim for a while. Yeah.
And accepting those feelings. And then like, getting over
them, like, I have felt all of them.
I felt my worst anger. I felt my worst fears.
I've been getting over them. And then thinking okay so if
this was it I'm feeling a bit better now and then continue.
And then then I think it's a matter of choice.
How you are able to deal with that?
If you, you can't blame not being happy on others or
situation that had happened in the past.
It's kind of stupid to have, I don't know 30 Algiers, in which
you're not happy because you had five years as a childhood which
were not that. Nice.
Yeah, that's kind of. It doesn't make sense, right.
So lift through the That's and then the site that you are, the
only one responsible for your own happiness, on a day-to-day
basis and influence that it's within your circle of influence.
You can control what you think and how you feel about it and
what you want to do about it. Yeah, that is a choice, and in
the beginning, after life, through ugly things, it's a bit
difficult. But then, once you've gone
through that, then you teacher to choose again.
Exactly. Yeah.
I don't know where I got this quote, but I read somewhere that
You can't really influence what happens while you have some form
of influence but things happen, and things can happen for a
reason. They can also happen for no
reason whatsoever. Yeah.
But you you have the option to choose how to react towards that
you are in control of your emotions as well.
Yeah. And how you react and how you
move forward or not? That is your choice basically.
Yeah. And it's also it's about so you
can be a victim if something bad happened you are a victim.
Yeah and it's your choice if you're To be that, how long
you're going to be that? And what you're going to learn
from that once you decide to step out now and continue?
Yeah, I like that a lot. I feel like this might be weird,
but people that have gone through real hardships,
sometimes I have a conversation with them and I can feel that
they've had that experience and they've moved forward from that.
Like I feel like it, it gives purse a person, a certain sense
of perspective and it comes across also in a conversation or
how they behave, all of a sudden there's something different or
there something more to them. M that wasn't there before.
It's funny how you said it, because it feels to me if I meet
people that have that. Yeah, it feels to me.
They have this steady base in themselves, so their deities
Russian Matryoshka dolls that rock a bit.
If you don't, if you push on them, but they will always stay
in the middle. You they do, is they do wiggle.
They don't fall, exactly. And they will always be in their
bases. And that basis is just
themselves, they are good with them.
Yeah, and if you're good with you, you'll be All in the
basics, whatever life throws at you.
You will be stable because, you know, you can go through that
because you've done it before I like that analogy a lot.
Yeah, that's how it feels. Yeah, people that are grounded.
That know who they are uncomfortable with that.
And they've kind of gotten the experience that allows them to
be that comfortable with it. Yeah, no, yeah.
Just the hear you met them to yeah, for sure.
Yeah. I don't know if I'm in that
place but people have described me like that as well.
And I think everyone goes through hardships.
It just varies how much and in what frequency and feel like,
but you are right? You except that it has happened.
You choose to move forward. Yeah.
They're they're things that have happened.
Like my mom got cancer twice when I was in university once
and I could deal with it, and I still get emotional talking
about this and then it happened again the year after and the
second time was worse because they told her like there's a
small chance you'll make it through this which was like she
something as someone that's very positive that can go through.
Anything. Yeah.
But if you tell her that life, A medical expertise?
Yeah, yeah, that can take a hit in motivation, it really badly.
Yeah. And that's it's through sips
through me. My siblings through everyone and
still, she made it through and I think throughout that experience
like some people are like, are you might have missed out on
like University experiences and stuff like that.
And I was like, I might have, but I gained something else and
it's hard to explain because this is a certain sense of
perspective and a certain sense of like increased value that I
have towards a family. Yeah, words, family feeling.
Towards my mom who still there. Yeah.
And I appreciate that. It has happened.
Not in the moment, definitely not, but I did gain something
from it. I didn't just lose.
Yeah, yeah, I recognize other things but that's, that's a big
story. Yeah, that's a big, big
experience. It's nice.
If you can go through that together, right?
If you can be there with your siblings and your mother and
your other family and do that together, it's so, so important
to do that together. Yeah, yeah.
It was anyway. Was really hard because I was
like, okay, I, I thought my life was going to go in a different
direction basically. I told my mom, I'll drop by the
university. I'll start working like we need
to figure out how to do this. Yeah.
And she was like, you make sure that you live your life like the
way you want it. The way you planned it, like
it's not going to change. Basically, you live your life
and I'm not gonna allow you to drop out because that was always
the plan. Yeah, so with that in mind, I
was like, okay this is this is going to be all right,
eventually might not be now. Not now.
Yeah, but eventually we'll be all right.
And that's how it how it turned out.
Yeah, if it might have turned out differently it would have
still been. All right?
It would have just been different.
Yeah. And I feel like with that in
mind, I don't know things and hardships.
Now don't seem as hard anymore. No, basically it's just puts
things in perspective. Yeah, but it's beautiful.
How she gave you like the purpose?
How she gave you the drive to continue?
Yeah, I took to live. Absolutely next to what
everything that happened? That's Nice of her that you
could do that for you. Yeah yeah.
I think I think I had a lot in a in me but I have a lot with
Orson urchin a lot from her and I can pinpoint.
This is what I got from you. I gave her that feedback the way
I act. Now that she Praises.
I'm like, yeah, that's because of what you did to me.
You told me that exactly not did to me but how you raised me
basically. Yeah, now that's the experience.
Do you then also recognize that with your siblings today?
Oh yeah. Did I share that?
Yeah, that's day of certain like, I can see them and I can
perceive and sometimes I reflect objectively.
I'm like, where does that come from?
Like I also do that I'll maybe the have that from me but then I
have that from either my mom or my dad.
Right? And you can see that in the
chain that people kind of they do what they've seen before.
Yeah. And I think in organizations is
the same your family to the same.
Yeah, even in your friends circle, you act like the people
around you. Yeah.
And if they're different than you they do things differently.
Is one it gives you perspective you commit a called.
This is also an option. I didn't know it existed.
But I'll take this because I think is better.
Yeah, I have no problem being a chameleon in being like our I
like having many tools to figure things out.
Yeah. I can imagine.
Yeah, it's nice. How you say that?
People act like how their parents did Heather grandparents
did and how its in this family history, right?
Yeah. It's quite extreme to be honest.
If you think about it you have any knowledge about systems
because this is like a family system and have patterns are
given through generation to generation to generation.
You see, patterns and behavior going through all All those
lines like multiple Generations back.
Yeah. And it's very interesting.
I'm making the switch to accompany our because it's very
interesting to to realize and understand that those same
patterns in how you behave are also existing in companies.
Yeah. So in an organization it's also
very common to see patterns that are just there that are not
depending on people but are just in the building, they're just in
the walls. The walls you step in you just
There are there and quite often. If you look at change in
organizations, if it doesn't work and everything that makes
sense has been tried, quite often, it's in those, I call it
systems. Yeah.
And then you have to look in a different way.
You have to feel it in a different way.
Yeah. And then translate and subtitle
what's truly happening to people that are not used to trusting
that Intuition or really seeing what that system, how that
influences the culture of today, exactly.
Lee, it's fascinating. If you start looking in that
angle, it can imagine a me. You, you gave the example of a
team completely switching, even management.
And then the same patterns, kind of re-emerging to me.
That is very hard to grasp, like, what is happening there
and what is kind of the cause of that?
Yeah, because that is a system. There's a root cause somewhere.
It's not, that people, people who might be the easy solution.
Yeah, but it's not, that is what's right?
Let's try. And of course, that's the first
thing you're trying to say, like, hey, don't I have a it's a
really It's a fascinating example.
I took I once was a manager of a team and in that team, the
average age, I don't know exactly.
Let's say it was about 35. Yeah.
And what happened is, I was in a conversation in a refinement
with our team as their manager, because I wanted to see how
they, how they interacted. Just get me loads of input about
those persons about how they communicated important for well
understanding how they are, and how they perform everyday.
Yeah, I joined refinements quite often.
So I wasn't 35. Moment.
And those people 35-ish, all of them, they started talking.
It was in a time that I was with ing.
They started talking about the merge of ing, both Bank.
Okay, that happened when they were born.
Yeah. But then still they had
arguments, it's came from postbank.
Really as like what? Yeah you're saying what exactly
why. And then I was like, this is
not, there was a better going on at Emo's.
Everything was going on in the door and I was like this is not
okay. This is not the most people know
this is in the system. We need to do something
differently. It was cool.
Yeah. Okay imagine yeah.
So strange also for people that are very much like looking
towards short term Solutions or remorse or short-sighted than
others. I feel like communicating that
it is not in the people that we need to look into other things
that like a whole system needs to change.
Yeah, I think the fact that a system needs to change is one
thing and then the time period than it actually does change is
going to vary But I think it's a long kind of term play.
It depends on the root cause mmm, and how can I put that?
So, so if, if it is pure, systemic is, if, if if the only
wood goes is in the system. Yeah, there's this beautiful TV
program, they made of it. It's called cross the line.
Yeah. So they have this gym with kids
and the kids are there. Some bullying going on in this
group does get sorrow with their back against the wolf that Em.
And then they say, take two steps forward, if your parents
are still together, step step and others, don't move.
Take two steps forward if well, all kinds of situations.
Yeah. And then they say stop.
Look around people look around and they see hey, those people,
that act a bit weird, every now and then, they're still with her
back against the wall or just two steps away.
And I'm here, almost on the other side of the gym.
What's happening. And what they do is, they solve
the system. They do a system intervention
and The they do it on the binding, so they do it on the
inclusion. So what they do is they they
they enlarged the extrapolate of his effectively English, but
they make larger. The differences between the
people in that group. Yeah.
And what they do is they say it gets visible by people moving
taking distance from that wall. Yeah.
The physical divide literally. Yeah.
So what happens is, and then it stops and what happens then is
they said cuddling and they start like, oh my gosh, I never
Realized life was like that for you.
Now, I understand why you dress may be different, or are you
behave a bit different or I you have your mind somewhere else,
why you sometimes, your text is a bit rude, or whatever.
Yeah. Or you can't adapt to how we
think it should be done in our system.
How it should be? Yeah.
And then this inclusion comes because the differences have
been made, clear explicit. And then the inclusion of the
differences is there. And the bullying is gone.
Yeah, it's just gone. And that's just an intern.
Tension that can take an hour. Yeah, that's gone.
So sometimes it's very easy and sometimes most of the times
changes are very complex. So there's many routes courses.
If you solve one or a few, you don't even see any difference.
But, you know, that you need to solve them because there are so
many of them, you need to get through maybe 60 70 percent of
those root causes before you see any difference.
Yeah. So example, yeah, that's really
cool. If you like, like, even in a
team of said this before, but it always feels like a group of
individuals, kind of comes together.
Yeah. And through tried and true, and
a lot of time, they'll figure out those differences and
inclusion will happen, right? Until, or unless they really
Clash. But then still there's some form
of intervention and they still grow towards each other, but
there's not really anything that I've seen that people take the
time initially when a team forms to actually create those
relationships to get an understanding of People come
from why they are different or why they are the way they are
for them. The collaboration to be better
because of it, if you like it happens naturally.
But no one puts in the time and effort to actually do that.
And accelerate that process even though it might be valuable so
valuable. Yeah.
And also they like this is one of the principles our system
needs to comply to. There's a few of them, so it
requires really looking very carefully to what truly happens.
Yeah. And then, thinking of the proper
interventions to do interesting. Yeah, what interventions have
you done? Done in a team like to actually
put in practice. You have any examples towards
that. Yeah, so yeah, I do.
The reason I'm thinking is because I thought everything can
be shared that easily. So no problem.
I was kind of thinking which gonna take I think I'll just
take one that I could have done. Yeah, instead of what I really
did because it's not easy to share without giving, no problem
lot of information. So sometimes in organizations,
you see that there is kind of a implicit fight going on in a, in
a, gumbo in a team or in a management team or in an
organization between business units.
And if that's fight is not easily solved, and keeps coming
back in all kinds of shapes and it looks different, every time.
Sorry symptoms can be different, but the root cause is the same.
It's quite likely. There is an issue in ordering.
Yeah, an ordinance is not necessarily hierarchical, but
it's about who goes first on what, okay, it and system a
system need to be explicit who goes first on what.
So if there is People that need to work together but also will
have a hierarchical or her. I could lie on the same level.
Yeah. And a decision needs to be made.
There's different interests. So, people want to go left
another one to go, right? And if they never like, almost
never agree, that's kind of strange.
Yeah, because in the end, they should have all of them should
have the interest of the company as a whole.
And that means that in like 60 70 percent, they should agree
because it's quite clear, what the best would be for the
Company, right. Yeah.
If that doesn't happen and it still sounds logical with
arguments that make sense. And so yeah, you kind of think.
Hmm. What is underlying what's
happening? And it can be one of the causes
can be that it is unclear on which subject who of those guys
goes first. Yeah.
So it could be that if it goes on, I don't know money and time
lies. Mr. A goes first and if it goes
on people and Development of people Ambitions, people person
B goes first so that can be different.
So in example in a group in a group in a team, if a team
really finds and there's always concern this discussion going on
people trying to be smarter, outsmart others.
Yeah, it helps if you make clear who goes first on what so if we
talk about developing in a, then we say, okay, so who's most
experienced in this and they make a line and then that line
ordinance itself. And it goes.
Okay, so what we talked about a we listen to you first because
your most knowledgeable about that and then we listen to you
and then the the group of you have a proper discussion and if
all of you agree, the rest of us is will also agree because
you're there. So, you know, most yeah.
But on a different subject that's earning could be
completely different. So if a team an example keeps on
fighting or manicures keep on fighting unhook who gets who
gets their, who gets it their way.
Yeah, it helps to find out. In which aspects to ordering
might not be explicit interesting or being fought
about if they fight about who goes first on, what it looks
different. Yeah, and I wonder where that
comes from, right? Because as you say, people share
half kind of the best interest of the organization at heart.
Yeah, I think you guys can Clash and there's probably a lot of
like past experience that kind of contributes towards that that
they do feel like all my something is in danger here.
And that's why they fight an advocate for what they think is,
right? Even though they might Like all
your arguments better, they won't let go of that.
Yeah. Because of those reasons, yeah,
which is very interesting. And I think they're kind of loop
back to the beginning, but they're did in tension comes
back, right? Yeah.
So there's this thing called trust equation.
It tells how trustworthy are you has to do, with what you do, is,
what you see is what you your intention is.
Yeah. And as long as that is congruent
people are more easily to trust you.
Yeah. Or easier for them to dress.
You. So then If you can, if people
start feeling your intentions are not true, like sincere, or
are not the look proper or not legitimate for what the
organization goals and strategies are.
Yeah, you lose trust really rapidly.
Interesting to stay in congruent is up most important.
Yeah, I think if you do that, that also allows you to either
kind of draw between the lines or outside the lines.
And move upward like you do in those conversations as well,
right? Because you and your interest
and because of that sense of Jen.
How do you say that of being genuine?
I'm going to go with that kind of holds true in who you are
then those boundaries because they're not really physical
boundaries. They're not boundaries anymore
now they're all go. Yeah interesting yeah.
What I think is interesting and what I perceived as well, is
that the people that helped with those teams and that helped with
those conversations. Yeah.
Also they are with In teams, right?
We can talk about leadership teams in that aspect, and they
really know how to Advocate and how to build teams yet
leadership team. Sometimes can also be a mess in
and of its evening themselves in and of its own.
Yeah, one of those too. And in any case, I think, in
most cases, what really helps is an objective view on that.
How do you operate? Not just as a bunch of
individuals, but really as a team, right?
With a shared interest, the shared interest of the
organization because this is a leadership team, habitats a
fascinating statement because Leadership teams they can be
teams but they can also be groups.
Yeah. And depending on the sordid to
the difference between that is crucial because if you're a team
you have a shared goal and a shared interest and then you
need to have something that you're mutually dependent on
each other to achieve the results.
Yeah so if you look at ice skating, you have the beautiful
things I have the the for people skating rounds and then all four
of them need to make the finish in a certain time.
Yeah. So if you do that, all four of
those people are dependent on each other's performance.
Absolutely, one gets tired. The other takes over and goes
first and takes the the harder, the harder position to, to skate
from, right? That's a team.
They're mutually dependent on each other.
Yeah. Quite often management teams are
no teams, but groups, so they happened to be together, managed
by one manager. Yeah.
Because they're all in the same domain and example, but it
doesn't necessarily I mean that they are a team because they
could all be quite successful doing their own thing and being
successful in their own area of responsibility.
So only if there is an overlying goal.
Yeah. That they have a dependency on
each other only, then your statement is valid because you
should treat them as a group. If they are group, you should
treat them as a team of their team and that is a complete
different story. Interesting.
I mean for me I've seen Seen people act as a group but yet
there are shared goals and then all of a sudden it slips through
the cracks. Right course, can be shared with
the question is are they dependent of each other to reach
them? Yeah, because if the answer is,
no, they're not a team, it's not a bad thing.
If they're not a team, they still can hang out together to
escape rooms together and have loads of fun.
That's not, that's not the Criterium.
But if you mean team in achieving a goal together, they
need to be mutually dependent. If the one fails, all of them
will feel. Yeah.
It's not like that their group. Yeah.
And can you me, as a manager of a team or group?
You have to do different things, interesting?
Yeah, yeah, I've never seen that or, or have that distinction
laid out to me like that, but I do think that some goals kind of
slipped through the crack if you're even a group of
individuals, right? Yeah because if you if you are
dependent on each other and if you can contribute together
towards a shared goal, I think that makes you stronger right
there as a group or a team or from a group to a team rather.
Yeah, if you find A legitimate and valid goal for all of those
people. Yeah, derived from the strategy
because the purpose has to be right?
It's can cannot just be any assignment that you make them
mutually dependent of each other.
It has to be valid for the right of existence of the
organization. Yeah, yeah, interesting.
I think I've seen that, let's say there's a group of people
and for now, I'm going to call this a leadership group that if
one of the aspects goes wrong, I was on the other people need to
step in, then I'm like, okay. Is a clear symptom of it being a
team, right? Because if other people have to
step in for that part of the organization or that part of the
goal, kind of to be upheld. Then all of a sudden you are
kind of contributing towards that common goal in that aspect.
Yeah. But if you step in because
somebody else fails and you take over job it's of a job and bit
of responsibility. Now it's just more effort goes
towards it. Yeah yeah then I get it.
Exactly right. Yes.
That's what I've seen before. Yeah.
Yeah and it's funny but I don't know it.
Did you often see Incessant. How, how that, how an example,
one of those management teams was steered?
Do you see the difference between a team and a group?
Mmm, not really. I just talked a lot about my
expectations because I sometimes give feedback to my own
leadership. My own management manager, I've
done that in the past, I still continue to do that, and as I
expect you to operate as a team because I think we do have a
shared goal, right? Yeah.
The shared goal is X. Y&z, I expect you to move
towards that together. I don't want to hear from Sanae
a different story than from person b means.
You're not aligned means, you're not actually a team.
Yeah, I want the story to be honed.
I wanted to be clear to, like, across-the-board congruent,
exactly. And I want that transparently
communicate as well. That's what I expect.
Yeah. And now what they do with that
feedback that's not up to me. Yeah.
But I tell them, this is what I expect.
Yeah. And I think more people do so as
well. Yeah.
And then usually they take that to heart and they try to improve
and sometimes not and then I'm like, okay, I'll tell it again
and I'll say it again at some point.
Yeah, I'm not there to say it anymore.
Yeah. There you go up.
Thank you. Are you sometimes you can only
go so much as well. Yeah, I get that.
No, but I've really enjoyed this conversation.
I must say this is a lot of fun. It's it was this kind of what
you expected. Yeah.
I wasn't really sure what to expect because I'm not that much
of a podcast listener. Yeah.
So but I really like the conversation.
Awesome. Is there anything you you still
want to share? Not really, I think it's just
it's just a conversation. I went away, it went and I also
I just liked what we did time where we got cool.
Thanks a lot. Thank you so much as well for
coming on. I'm going to round it off here.
Thank you so much for listening. Everyone knew Logan found out.
I'm going to put all her socials in the description below, reach
out to her. Let her know you came from our
show. And with that being said, thank
you for listening. We'll see you in the next one.