Hi everyone. My name is Patrick akhil and if
you're interested in a healthy mindset, how to achieve it, as
well as how that helps with performance, this episode is for
you. Joining me today.
Is that I in our craft, he's the founder of the mindful leader
where he helps Tech Leaders with a high-performance mindset.
I'll put all his socials, whether some resources in the
description below. Check them out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode.
That is felt, it's time to, to experience something different,
and yeah, maybe maybe there is part of this also that the work
culture of General culture around here.
We'll move to Berlin is quite different.
Yeah, and I think the overall combinations kind of attractive
to work on some new things work in a new complex.
In the context could compare to have been doing before otherwise
if I would have switched to a different company, let's say in
a it be area that the difference probably would have been not
that not that major, it's basically may be working in
Sunnyvale maybe then you work at Mountain View.
Yeah but everything else around it is usually not that big of a
change, right? But moving to Berlin was Major
change. The complete terms of any
possible Dimension, you can think about, just think, I think
a lot of people and either work wise, or even LifeWise head to a
point where they're comfortable with what they have and then
they seek either a challenge or like, a change of context and it
can be in a work environment and then they just switch companies,
but some people make a complete shift just like you did.
They move countries, and completely change the context,
they operate in basically, and I don't know where that comes
from. I think.
It comes from kind of this innate.
I don't know if it's curiosity or something that like is
unknown for people to kind of go through and seek out for
themselves and probably get some kind of fulfillment from that as
well. Yes, it is a good point as he is
big factor, you can into the unknown Getting used coming
comfortable with the unknown. Angus is part of the journey as
well, and I think situations like this are perfect for
experienced English. Yeah, exactly.
Now I know you do a lot with regards to mindfulness now but
if you look back in your career when did it start basically when
were you more aware of being Mindful and working with
mindfulness and how is it going to continue to?
Grow to where it is now. Well, that was more of a let's
say 10 years ago, 11 years ago today, it was more like a crash
course. I got into mindfulness.
It was not intended at that point.
Even the term mindfulness, I regret maybe a little bit here
and there about it, but I was not I didn't really know what
was behind it or why it matters so it was a completely distant.
Concept. And then when at the end of the
day, through this environment, they are true.
The fast-paced basically, work continues work.
Not enough balance because you pretty much you adapt to these
things. So that it's kind of it's
typical that you work non-stop. You worked at several positions
sometimes. All at once I was teaching at
the University and sell a cruise, I work full-time.
Yahoo still worked on some start-up ideas on the side.
So there was a lot of stuff going on.
And I had at that point already had a family with two boys.
So while it was, it was a lot of things going on and it's some
point the body basically told me here.
No, stop it was this, I could sense that you put in more
energy only to achieve less. It's we would you will try to
compensate by working harder but it looks like the productivity
that all. Yeah.
And these were the first signs of stress too much stress.
It was clear something needed to happen and this is when at the
end of the day, it hit me harder.
Where I, at that point, this was the pivotal moment.
So this was the story which I sometimes are shared or it's
also my blog because it was To me, it was quite a pivotal
moment when this was during the night.
It's not a. I woke up in the middle of the
night and I felt like I have a heart attack or something like
dying. Basically.
And I saw what, right? So I was at that point was, of
course in big stress, emergency unit, came to check me out and
put me on all these instruments and then they drove him to the
hospital. And during that thrive in the
That emergency unique to the hospital on the way they are.
This is where all of the sudden experience, complete silence,
and peace, and quietness. I could pretty literally observe
myself. It was completely calm and it
felt good. So that was a moment which I
hadn't experienced before and of course that made me later on
that made me curious. What was this state?
Yeah, my mind goes in there. Point is there's been around
about mindfulness being connected to the present moment
and this was actually what was happening there at just being
there. Instead of the Mind jumping back
and forth between one sought after the other rehashing, the
past planning, the future strategizing and so on.
So it was a Really key moment for myself rather than I felt
that, oh, oh, there is something there, and interestingly enough
that. So, at the end, it wasn't
something severe. I had was doctors, told me I had
this is called an anxiety attack, okay?
Or panic attack or whatever. They gave me a few pills.
I walked out the next morning. Still puzzled what was
happening, but my employer that point Yahoo they offered a
mindfulness-based stress reduction class mbsr which is
Skyler standard for mindfulness eight week class fellow.
This is something I can try out. Yeah, and when I got into this,
I realized, yeah, this is mindfulness now.
I know what it is. Now, it was clear.
I could connect the dots between my experience before and when I
started doing like little of these mini meditations body
scans and so on these exercises, it was clear that this goes in
the same direction. But helpful, it's good for me.
And so that's when I started my journey.
They're interesting. I like that a lot, but the kind
of the work pressure and the shifting of focus and being so
kind of, I wouldn't, how do you, how do you even call that?
Like, I think your mind working in overdrive compared to your
body, like those have all, I've talked to all the people and
those have all been symptoms that people is heading towards a
burnout burning themselves out. Literally, I mean, just by
virtue, Prove that you got a panic attack in the middle of
the night by an exotic attack. I think that might happen to a
lot more people or they find themselves in that state when
it's kind of too late, right? Because the by virtue of that
people burn out, and I feel like I'm somewhere on that scale.
I don't think I'm too far ahead towards a burnout but I
definitely don't think I am like more mindful of what I'm doing
or my mind is at ease sometimes because I do wake up in the
middle of the night and I'm thinking a lot.
About work stuff for personal life stuff.
Like my mind is very much busy with the day-to-day or even not
the day-to-day. Exactly.
As you mentioned the past the future, it goes all over the
place sometimes and I feel like sometimes I'm in control and
sometimes I'm not in control at all and it just wanders and I
stay awake because of that. Like, what would you advise for
people that their mind, just wanders off, how to get it back
into control because the mind is I think a very interesting
thing, Well, too. Yeah, I mean those are exactly
the thanks to sharing. I mean, these are exactly the
type of symptoms that I experienced as well.
Like waking up in the middle of the night.
Basically, sleep was affected. Yeah, that was.
That was pretty. Yeah.
It was pretty rough because if you don't have that sufficient
sleep and if you even worse the next day and so Yeah, I think
the symptoms are there and I would recommend if people are
experienced these symptoms of I call it a busy mind and the mind
is always on you. Looks like you can't seem to
turn Adobe able to turn it off, you wake up in the middle of the
night. So these are the typical
symptoms of busy mind and yeah they lead eventually to state of
mental exhaustion. Yeah.
And this was the state where I was in basically it's the mental
image. Dual processing.
Capability is basically exhausting.
It's getting harder to focus. It's getting harder to get stuff
done. Burnout, is it the like the end
of the road, right? It's a condition.
Where at that point, if you really encountered a full-blown
burnout, there's not much. You can do it pretty much.
Yeah. You know, it's you're done
right. There is it's basically and I
didn't experience the Vernal, but I know from many experienced
that and work with no cost. It actually gets, it takes quite
some effort to get out of this burnout State.
Yes, it's a condition. It's something that is very
severe, but I would say, not all people reach that stage.
When You Reach like myself, you reach a state where you already
know you're heading that way, it's mental exhaustion, right?
And you know, the Bible is always busy, sleep is affected
as a stress opens. And so, then the question comes,
can you control the mind? And that was the question that I
was exploring for many years and going deeper and figuring.
Exactly this question out can actually control the line.
It looks like, I can't lift it. The mind is the type of is like
a software, right? Mind isn't software, it has all
its limitations, it might be buggy, it runs all kind of sub
proteins. And many of them are not really
healthy for you like Many of them limiting swords, false
beliefs type of cell proteins that basically could create also
negativity, varying and supplement.
So it's it's a software. You can really control it but
you can learn to become aware of the software of what it's doing
to you and you have a possibility then to start
changing the programming. Interesting.
Actively, right? So I think Think so, the
debugging aspect as a software engineer and familiar on how to
debug a program. So here is the same analogy is
debugging line is possible and making little changes step by
step, but you need this level of what I call present awareness
being connected to the present moment.
This was exactly this what when I was in the state that I was
experience. This, this was a full state of
being present. In such state, or maybe during a
meditation or when you doing some sport, you have these
moments when you're completely flow.
Yeah. And this is a state where you
fully connect to the present moment that this state allows
you to actually look at the mind, you can observe it.
You can start to learn to how to observe it, but then you can
also start thinking about what kind of software routines would
not like to change. Change if they're not suitable
anymore. Because a lot of these routines
are outdated, and they're not actually at all, there's no
advantage and still having them. So, this is where the
reprogramming order rewrite, the software products, interesting.
But the first to figure out what to rewrite, you first need to be
aware of what is going to happen in your mind, right?
And I recognize what you say in finding a state of flow.
Like, I do that when I'm programming or exactly.
As you say, sometimes when Sports, and if I'm doing I don't
do this often, but I have done this in the past, like a deep
breathing exercise. I feel like, I am more aware of
what is happening. Exactly in my body, right?
I can feel my toes all the way to the top of my head, basically
being more present of where I am in this space.
What is touching, what and being really aware of what is
happening in my own body? But I've never trained for that.
Like is that some process? You can train for being more
aware of what is happening and being more in the present?
I guess? So.
Oh, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So that is doable. And I, the question was, how do
you do it? And I experimented with all kind
of different of mindfulness exercises techniques programs.
I met with many different teachers, attended workshops
Retreats seminars and all of those, they were definitely
helpful, but I didn't see yet the for me, the big picture
because as a scientist Like to see, this is actually working.
Is now if I do this compare to this, how do I know this is
actually better? Or is it is it just different or
how do I more systematically? Cultivate this awareness.
So, that was the big question and then we will the past and
say five years. I figured out.
Yes, it can actually be systematically.
Be trained. Like there's people, I mean,
they basically wake up the next morning and They're fully
present. Yeah, if they're fully, they're
fully, they are like what it stated I had when I was driving
into the hospital, it's like being, and there you are, right?
And then, that state last for a long period of time.
It was, it's intermittent, it could go back to old and it
comes back. So some people have a little bit
of luck here so that they get this state of.
Usually it's there. Some part of suffering involved
if there is Suffering. It could actually happen that
this opening happens to you and you automatically more present
without having to train anything, it's just there.
But I would say, for the majority of people, it's a
indeed, it's training process. And then the question was, how
can it be systematically? Yeah, so this is when I ended up
with this what I call now measurable mindfulness, it's
adding a dimension of data to mindfulness make it Data travel.
There are not many people when they hear this.
The first time, what measuring data mindfulness, how does this
fit together? But it works together very well
and it works. So, when I started working with
tech leaders Business Leaders, because they wanted to exactly
do this. They wanted to get out of this
mental noise, mental chatter all this busy mind stuff.
Also refer to this as the monkey mind and train state of mind.
And I told him. Look this is trainable, there is
data there it can be measured. You can try out different
things, you can see how it goes and you can see over time you
can see indeed progress or not just depends right and that
resonated also very well because people I work with usually they
like data they like numbers and that's why measure the
mindfulness. It's something where I said oh
this is this is cool it's like this It's like finally there is
something there that you can use that shows you how your
awareness your level of present awareness for your LPA.
That's how I call it is actually rising or maybe not depends.
Yeah, so yeah. So data-driven and measurable
mindfulness mindfulness this war.
This was the game changer interesting, and you mentioned
like awareness being one of the factors that you measure.
First of all, how How do you measure that?
And then second of all, what other factors do you look at
when measuring like mindfulness, in that way?
Yeah so LP a level of present awareness is a key K Pi because
what it represents is the percentage of time over the
course of your waking day that you're fully aware and fully
connected to the present moment. Yeah.
So that means to make the simpler this example.
Usually, I give if there are 16 hours that you're awake eight
hours, you sleep, so you have 16 hours, roughly 1,000 minutes to
keep it And if you manage to stay fully present for let's say
20 minutes and we'll of course of the day.
So then you have about 2% LPA and two percent sometimes three
percent sometimes less is also usually the average of people I
start working with okay state of untrained mind and 2%.
LPA usually is not bad but it is something that you have to
first. You have to be able to even
measure it. It and establish a baseline,
which is a process that typically takes about two to
three weeks because you have to first become familiar with this
idea of how do I actually track these?
I called in mindful minutes. Yeah.
How do I attract them? How do I know if I'm actually
fully present or not? Most of the time unconscious?
Pretty much identified with my thinking mind and doing all this
useless? Learned activity.
So you have to learn. This is a process where you
first learn to be able to to measure an established.
This Baseline it's doable and then people get after two or
three weeks, usually they have some baseline roughly.
It doesn't have to be perfect but they come out and say, oh
yeah. So now it looks like on average
is maybe 3%. Sometimes it's for sometimes,
it's cool but they get a sense of its problems.
Probably about the air and once the Baseline is established,
then usually in the training. So one of the trainings around
measurable mindfulness that I developed.
It's like a three months training, movie, take that
Baseline. And I call it 10x presence
because we want to have a significant impacts.
Not just moving it a little bit up, but we want to factor of
10x. Yeah.
Because that's what I hear is realize.
This is when Change happens, if you have a really boost in this
appearance. And so this is a process.
And then, let's say you start with two percent, maybe after
two or three months, you get up to 10 percent 15 or even 20
percent. Yeah, this is when life changes,
basically for you, interesting just just to play Devil's
Advocate because I think that would be interesting.
Let's say I'm I'm trying to be more Mindful and I'm working on
getting more mindful minutes throughout my day.
I start off with 20 Minutes which is about two percent,
which doesn't sound like a lot, but if you say that's already
quite good, then I believe that. But if I'm trying to actively
work on it and I'm trying to be more aware of when it happens
when it doesn't happen. Shouldn't I like, shouldn't my
mind already be more aware of when it happens and like just
because by virtue of me working on that, it can also be a
placebo know that I think I am being more aware throughout my
day, or that it, I do see an increase just because I really
want that sometimes, just because you Something that might
can like have a placebo effect and then I don't know if it's
actually happening and even. So if it doesn't actually happen
if it still helps you, it's still good at the end of the
day. Yeah, I think this is the
cutest. The point is it's not black or
white. So if they give you an example
to collect, let's say five mindful winners.
You take a shower and you take a shower anyway.
But now the instruction is you set yourself an intention of
being fully present when you're taking a shower.
Yeah. So there is an intention being
present during the shower. Then you take the shower and you
actually have you use your intention?
Now to stay fully present, you feel the harder, you feel the
temperature, you feel when it touches your skin, you fully in
there and let's say they do this for five minutes.
We're not be perfect because after I don't know 30 seconds,
20 seconds the first thought pops up and you're out of it.
Yeah but since you set yourself with tension, you go back to
being present. After the 30 seconds, I tell you
go in and out. So, these are called conscious,
recoveries, okay? And this is how, this is, how
you train the muscle of the Mind through these conscious
recoveries, the more you have the better, right?
This is when the Mind learns to basically recover itself going
back into the present moment. And so if you did this exercise,
at the end of the day, perfect these five minutes shower.
Right? Being present in the shower.
Yeah, you could now say, Lovely. Well, it took five minute
shower, probably, I was three minutes, fully present the rest.
I was basically dozing off going and in the busy mind again, but
three minutes, I was probably fully present.
So then this exercise was helpful because on one side,
you've collected some mindful minutes.
You have a good sense of how many directly we're in the
second while you were doing the exercise, you trained conscious
recoveries and that is how you at the end of the day, make
progress. Conscious.
Recoveries, the more the more trains the Mind becomes, right?
And the mind realizes Conscious recovering basically means the
Mind realizes, it went back to back into these old patterns of
identifying, with some useless thoughts and then it learned.
Well, looks like this is not helpful.
I always get when I do that. I get basically discovered and
then I have to go back out of it again and go into the present
moment. So the Mind realize it's not
helpful. Yeah, and so, this is when
gradually it, is this drifting away.
And there is a metric for this as well, you asked for different
kpis, there's different mind, kpis conscious, recoveries are
already mentioned, but there is also something called salt per
minute. So, this is the number of sorts
that activity in your mind, over one minute here.
There's also an exercise little mini meditation on how you can
basically create this data point and collect the sample and you
You people have very busy mind. It's not rare to see people
having sought permitted of 10, 15 or more months.
So, it's crazy. If you think about it, if you
would actually sit there and every sort it comes up, you
would basically speak it out loud, right?
While you're the voice in your head, and instead of letting it
just sit in silence, basically talk to it, right?
This is good way to actually make this printers to the
surface. What kind of what kind of
Dizziness there is going on, right?
If you would see, if you would observe a person sitting in an
office and we'll talk all the time like crazy and fast, right?
But this person would just verbalize those sorts are going
on, but they're just happening. This is how the busy mind looks.
If you would actually make it, make it visible.
And so, this is why I hide salt activity of 10 or more swords.
Per minute is usually an indicator of an untrained state
of mind and just say in through these Conscious, recoveries
through the training over time, you can bring these numbers
down. Like so it's between it ideally
you want, plenty down to zero. This is a very I can speak from
my own experience. This is a very pleasant state to
be. In fact is if there is silence,
if there is quiet quietness in the mind.
Yeah, it's do. It's a different ballgame,
right? So then you have it's like the
leg and think about the lake. There is basically there's no
wind It's basically calm, just calm State.
And this is how your mind is 0 shots per minute.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean you cannot sink anymore.
You can use the mind like, a surgeon like it's very precise
tool, if you need it. Like, if you say, oh now I need
to work on this problem. Here, I need to prepare this
presentation. Then you start using the my end
and go into a problem solving or two, maybe for a few minutes who
know. Those get some stuff done and
then if you get out of it again and then again there is the
silence. So it's a completely different
experience when you most of the time in this quiet State and
you're connected to actually the present moment.
Interesting. I mean parts per minute for me
is an interesting long because I feel like that comes with kind
of as adolescents and growing up and gaining more
responsibilities because those are all things you need to Think
of things you need to account for things.
You need might need to do, right?
If you're a kid, you're growing up, a lot of things are
facilitated for you. Your parents take care of you,
you go to school, you have a solid rhythm in the things that
you do in your free time, you can explore.
I just explore the world because that's how you grow.
That's how you gain knowledge. And at some point, you get more
and more responsibilities, right?
You start living by yourself or with friends and all of a sudden
you have to start thinking about, okay.
What are my meals going to be for the day or all I forgot to
eat. I'll have to think of even
Eating because before meal just appeared.
And then with that in mind, the more you start working, the more
you're starting to work with your mind even.
And at some point, you're going to buy a house, you're going to
get kids, you're going to be very worried about their stuff
and you're going to have to take care of them.
But your factors of like things, you have to think of things, you
have to account for and the responsibilities.
You have, I feel like as long as those keep growing, you're going
to have more thoughts and your thoughts might wander off to one
of those aspects to think of, right?
Because If you're responsible for that, you're accountable for
that, you want to do it, right? And at some point, you have to
actually allocate some thinking time before you act for that.
So I feel like already by virtue of growing up.
I feel like those thoughts per minute are bound to increase,
but if you don't train for it and then I thought I had as
well, is because I was walking like last weekend.
I was walking around one of the markets in Amsterdam and I saw
people like selling fruit and because I walked that market
pretty often I see the same people over and over again and
they do that six days a week basically, because on Sundays,
everything's closed and ask my girlfriend.
Like you think life would be simpler if we did that, right,
if we were farmers or if we sold the same thing on like a market
or day and more day out because I think, first of all, I'm not
going to work as much with my mind and just by virtue of not
working as much with my mind, I feel like I'm going to get a
little bit better of a mental state, maybe being more Mindful
and being more. More aware of what I'm doing.
Just by virtue of working more, physically rather than, with my
mind, mentally, I guess I feel like it also like, ISM bigger
strain. Those thoughts per minute with
people that work more with their mind on a day-to-day.
I don't know if that's anything you've seen research wise that
also can contribute towards those assumptions.
I guess, what are your thoughts there?
You know, I mean, they're so different environment.
Yeah, I would say that point, I'm not sure about particular
research that distinguishes, these cases, I'm sure every
studies out there when they looked at, it means there's
thousands tens of thousands of studies around meditation that
basically really looked at all aspects of meditation, how it
helps train your mind and different approaches and so on.
So there's plenty of Studies that I'm sure is probably
something out there. That looks at this a little bit
closer. My experience there is.
Yeah, sure. I mean, if you're in nature, if
you are exposed in an environment where thinking makes
yeah, it's not needed that much. I would say it could be maybe
here and there, little bit easier to stay connected to the
present moment but The other hand may also not.
I think the challenges are there, anyhow.
And I think if you use the mind more often, like if you have
these cognitive tasks mental processing, that needs to be
done. It is what it is.
I mean, as long as you're think, the problem there is more on the
body. I think the body at that point
needs more resources to provide this level of Mental processing
capabilities of the body if my analogy is the hardware and the
hardware needs to be in good shape.
And so if you're using the mental processing all the time
often, the praying is sucking up so much energy, it uses, 20% of
your energy 24/7. Yeah, and it's a difference
compared. Now, if I would just, I don't
know what's really working through Forest.
And the mind is more in this experience mode.
As let's assume that the mind is trained, and if you could still
walk through the forest and you have 10 15 watts per minute.
So that's why I'm saying, it's not necessarily a condition, it
could be that it quiets down a little bit more because there is
less distraction there. On the other hand.
Again, I see people. They, they go out and major,
they have the same number of sorts.
Yeah. So I think, at the end of the
day, it is There's always the challenge of training the mind,
and I think this is something people just are not aware of the
disc can be done, or this is something, it is important and
so they may discover it. But usually, they discovered in
to stay when there is already a lot of mental exhaustion there,
and then, of course it's harder to make these changes, right?
If I would have learned that let's say in kindergarten,
wouldn't that be great right now?
Yeah, someone in kindergarten told me, oh, you know, there is,
you could actually train your mind, of course, using simple
language would say, oh, you know, you can feel more quiet,
comfortable will learn. There's this thing called a
little mini meditation. We sit here, close our eyes, it
relaxed with shell. And then we take these
experiences and put them into a playful and playful scenarios.
We learn breathing techniques and all that stuff, right?
And we learn to be kind, Don't be gentle to each other, as
rather doing all that good stuff.
I mean think about what would how the world would change if
you would actually put some of these basics of training, the
Mind engaging in some of those mindfulness activities and
practices and let young kids at that age, basically really
experienced them and I think they're at that point, they're
much better setup for life, right?
But yeah, this is not I mean it's happening here and there
but I think that would be a big, could be a huge game changer.
I think that could be a very interesting one because my
assumption shirt like I I've been around a lot of kids.
I have three siblings and a lot of nephews and cousins and my
mom is a preschool teacher, but my assumption would be that kids
are innate already pretty good at that.
I mean, the younger the better but that that's an assumption.
So I feel like being more aware of it is a good thing and then
training it, maybe when you're becoming more Tonight because as
soon as you hit a kind of your teenage years, a lot of things
just already in your body are going to change.
Also in your mind are going to change.
If you like that might be a sweet spot for them to be more
aware of how you can train that and let those thoughts just be
thoughts or turn them off. Also going to want a more
flexible basically. Yeah, I think the problem is it
happens already. Unfortunately way too early when
people nowadays they grow up in this digital age.
Yeah, with these smartphones. Bones.
And that's a good ones everywhere, right?
So this is the problem. I have two boys and they
basically grew up in this time and I think people in general, I
see that young kids and teenagers as well.
Their attention span is so small because there's constantly
social stuff happening on the phone, right here on the tablet.
That sucks for your sucks, you attention.
And so your your awareness is like this, the monkey, Is this
little monkey bouncing around and goes to everything that is
moving or changing? I know if there's a little like
thing pops up on your head on your smartphone or little
message comes in or whatever. So there's all these different
channels and I think this is the this is the problem that Kang,
so young kids. When they're born, of course,
the fully aware that fully present.
But once they become toddlers, once they identify with so
called ego, the egoic mind, which is Hopping in these early
years, right? You can test if someone is
already identified with the egoic mind, if you take that
little toddler the toy away, right?
Yeah. And if that boy away and then if
the toddler is basically starting to cry and all this is
mine, this is mine. Give it to me, right?
Then you're already see, there is an eagle, right?
So it has starts very early and then if you the ego is evolving,
that's fine. But if then through All these
social media and all this technology stuff.
I think these this current generation has a tough time
because the mind is not even trained at all.
It's actually worse, I would say it's much worse compared to
someone who grew up like in my age in the 70s, in the 80s.
There were no smartphones or any of this stuff.
You would actually get out and you talk with people face to
face right in the phone called is Was something special like
when you were at home, there was a old phone thing, right?
Wish. And there was no wire Wireless
for anything. It was this one phone in the
inner apartment, or in the house, and then you would go,
there you make a call. Usually be at least World
weren't long calls to grow short, cause you just
synchronize on some topic and that's all the doors and
nowadays. The number of distraction is so
high right now, that That requires a say even more focus
on training in mind because with an attention span versus one
study, they said that nowadays some people, they have an
attention span of eight seconds or something wrong, which is the
same same as a goldfish. Yeah.
So I would, I would get worried when I hear these numbers say,
oh my goodness and this is basically there's science out
there. Are they doing these studies
right? And I think, Training the mind
is now needed more than ever. Yeah and yeah, working on
Florence's increasing this Focus evolving beyond the Goldfish
again, right? I think it's all doable, but
first becoming aware, this is actually where my, where my
current, what my current state of mind allows me to do.
It's not that great, but people also my experience, don't do it
proactively, it's more when there is some pressure.
Pressure. When there is some urgency, that
maybe Focus levels are so low that they say, I can't get my
work done anymore and then they kick start exploring to.
What can I do to be more focused?
Yeah. And then someone was they
realize, oh, there's something called, training the mind, and
then of, all of a sudden, becomes a priority.
But now it's much harder to get going on this kid.
Even started if people like in young age, Is for the mentioned
before we'll just playfully learn it, right?
Yeah. I agree.
It's interesting because when I do that comparison, I'm always
comparing to my own upbringing, but that is not reality anymore.
Things have shifted and Technologies.
Now they're very much more earlier.
Especially like I mean even if you're comparing you to me and
then meet up people that are growing up.
Now I guess in very young ages like it is accelerating and I
wonder if that trend of like technology acceleration And it
being more in the hands of younger Generations, I guess
also is there's a correlation with, like issues having to do
with the mind, like anxiety issues or depression and stuff
like that, because I feel like my gut feeling says, there might
be a correlation having to do with that.
I mean, there's already social media studies, that say it's not
healthy for kids, the younger, the worst usually.
So, being more aware of mindfulness, I feel like it's
going to be a very powerful thing.
And I think is gonna also Row more.
So in the future because technology is not going away,
it's going to get more and more accessible at a younger age
because it also has benefits. There's not only downsides but
the hard part is like the training the mind and being
aware of that. It does come fairly late in your
like a life. I feel like I agree with that.
Yeah, yeah, and I think the second aspect to this, which we
haven't talked yet about, is the body.
The health competencies of people is so low, it's It's
sometimes also scary that people know.
So little in terms of how they need to take care of their body
properly. And I think this is again, the
lack that people. Ideally, you learn these
important things in kindergarten.
I mean, from when I go back to this age by, let's say my
grandmother right there, she would tell me you don't do this.
You do this, you eat this, you don't need this.
So they will these old sayings in terms of eat more veggies or
do, right? So these these things, what you
learns, you And some very basic things but for that type of age
or decade when I was growing up, this was sufficient and it was
actually pretty good, it wasn't backed up by science, but
actually the science came later confirmed, this actually was
good stuff. Nowadays is all well dated, but
in this complex environment, nowadays with all his toxins
pollutions, it's basically craziness on the whole food
chain, all the stuff, what's happening here around us the
body. D on top of all having to deal
with all this. Let's say detoxifying is a big
topic for the body but it's also this constant processing's
mental processing capabilities. I mean if you have a smartphone
you have to constantly watch what's going on there.
What streams are there is switch between 10 different streams
even as a teenager, right? And yeah, this is this is
requires a lot of mental processing power.
That means your body. Needs to move around a lot of
energy in form of electrons. And so to generate these
electrons move them around and do this processing.
It needs a lot of resources, but resources for instance, in from
of minerals vitamins, to build, certain enzymes and proteins.
So it needs to be well nourished.
But people don't usually know that much in terms of how to
really take care of the body properly, they sink.
They know, but the numbers, they look different.
If they actually start digging deeper, this is where this
movement of biohacking, I would say about 13 14 years ago.
Think Dave asprey was there. One of the Pioneers in this
field? Yeah.
But there came other developments or all Quantified
Self really going to again, similar thing.
Look at biomarkers. Look at numbers.
Start to learn how How can you optimally support your body?
Eugene's all different. We all have different needs.
How do you do that? And I think if usually you have
to do something this area area that was my own experience.
I was I wasn't really doing well 10 15 years ago, my body wasn't
really bad shape. Yeah.
And so I had to learn. This was a lot of learning
activity by that was training the mind but becoming also More
aware it was easier to create this focus on the body.
I think otherwise it's not possible, but once you create
Focus for your body, then you learn also on your experiment in
an agile manner. How can you what kind of foods
are good for you or not? Good for you?
How do you know you're actually doing better?
So you do the same approach that you do for the mind, you do it
also for the body. And so if you do that, then
there's a Synergy. There is a synergetic effect.
Between body and mind. Because if the body is in better
shape, what mental processing capability goes up instead goes
up. You can also meditate better.
If you can meditate better. It's also easier my experience
to raise more awareness. So, it's a, there's a really
nice Symmetry and this is when I coined this term, few years ago,
the high-performance mindset which I created training
programs on, and helping people to really look at these three
pillars of Awareness Mind and Body in this direction.
Yeah. To basically introduce these
Synergy effects and this is when the magic happens is when you do
a little bit in each of these three areas.
And this is when you see results, basically I think
that's a very interesting one and you bring up performance
like when I'm thinking of performance and especially in
the context that I am in, like let's say I'm an engineering
manager and have to do performance reviews, it's always
based on what people Will do how they do it but it's never of
them and it's hard to judge this never if they're like state of
being right. So now we're about their mindset
or body but that can very much affect all their output.
Like what they're showing has a fundamental like having to do
with who they are as a person, or how they're feeling with the
words, their mind, and their body, how well they're
performing my drastically change, right?
If they're in a negative spiral. For example, or if they're of
high thoughts per minute, when it comes to their mind, right?
If their mind wanders off, and it's hard to focus.
Focus. You will the see that in kind of
a work performance. Yet, there's no focus on fixing
that from an organizational point of view and I think that's
a very interesting one, right? Because fundamentally that is
like a groundwork for a person before they can achieve.
Like, excellent work results that have to have their mind and
body in order. I feel like to do so right to
focus to really focus to find that flow, for example, and if
you have a trained mind and body, you will do that faster.
Which means also Your performance at the end of the
day is going to accelerate just by virtue of being better at
that, which I think is a very interesting one.
Yeah. Absolutely.
I think the some of these problems.
So let's say someone is in a state of negativity.
Yeah. Where is in a state of
depression? Of course, this affects your
output on work. Yeah so it's obvious love and a
lot of these things are based on sub optimal nutrition.
The body doesn't have enough resources.
In this case, for instance, to build sufficient level of
neurotransmitters. Yeah.
Or break them down faster. Enough.
So it's just a body can't do it and then what comes out is,
maybe it's depression. Maybe it's some anxiety, maybe
it's some other form, the, but at the end is basically there's
the body causing the problem. And then if you think some of
the doctor to give you some of these pills via take this and
yeah, sure. This is like, like a Band-Aid.
Yeah, it can be helpful in certain aspect, but it's a
Band-Aid, nothing more. But you have to go in and
figure. Also, what is really the reason?
What's what is really, what does my body need to get out of the
state? And this is where the science of
epigenetics process of biohacking can be very helpful
and I think it work, my Approach.
There was that when I coined this term also many years ago
the mindful leader right mindful leadership.
This was something where realized is leader, you actually
have to lift these things, by example.
Yes, you have to basically be in the present State, you have to
upgrade your mindset, your software and you have to also
upgrade your body. And people notice this, if you
all of a sudden you're in this, in a great shape, they see this
right people. I mean, you can see this in the
pandemic people. Many of them got sick.
Yeah. Right.
But if for instance, you take good care of your body.
You may not necessarily have to get sick.
When you basically all time you're there you're full of
energy, your full high level of resilience, your mind is running
like yeah, it's like a well-oiled machine.
I mean, people notice these type of things and then they make
question and come up and say you well I noticed that you're not
stressed at all. Yeah we're in this calm State.
Your Always full of energy. How do you do that?
How? Yeah, right.
And this is when they ask you, how do you do that?
And then then you can tell them how there is something called a
high-performance mindset, right? It's an idea of between more
awareness upgraded software of the Mind, better, Hardware your
body, right? There's different ways.
You can do that. There's resources out there that
you can explore, and then people get excited because they get
motivated because these topics usually Innate.
Pretty much with everyone. Yeah, everyone has basically
would benefit from little bit more awareness, little bit more
value, being a little little. Yeah, maybe you can wear state
or more focused state of mind. So people would benefit they
know that. And then all of the sudden there
is motivation because they're seeing that you're in the work
context as a leader you using these principles as part of your
how you define your own leadership style.
What does make you successful? Basically exactly that makes you
successful people, see this, and then they obviously it resonates
and then they get curious. And this is then when there's
options, also, what the company can can raise awareness of these
topics in the, in the basic in shaping a new workplace.
There's a lot of efforts underway in, many companies are
exploring concepts of mental health and well-being in the
workplace and the experimenting because Being Innovative and
it's good to see this. Yeah.
Yeah I agree. And an interesting thing that
you mentioned is that like you might see different outcomes,
right? Like a negative spiral or
someone that's depressed or like weird anxieties popping up when
you think about certain things. But then if you look at the
issue there might just be the same issues.
They're right either being like having a not trained mind.
I guess or not being optimal with your body or the things
that you're consuming or the vitamins and the nourishments
there, Very interesting because I never linked that together
like people always look at output I feel like and if you
fix the underlying cause that is so much more powerful than
focusing on those outputs especially as you mentioned that
doctors might just prescribe you something and then we'll talk
about a Band-Aid, right? Because they fixing that one up
well x amount of others might pop up.
I think that's a very interesting.
I've really enjoyed this conversation right now I think
it's very thought-provoking and I feel like I'm you opened up a
rabbit hole for me to like dive deep and Do more research in
before we round off. Is there anything?
You'd still like to share with regards to our listeners before
we round up? So that's why.
No, thanks. I think they were on my side.
If people get curious on these topics, many years ago, I
created block the mindful leader dotnet, so I think we can share
some links to those resources. There, there is plenty of videos
on this topic and I talked about Vee.
Is measurable mindfulness, high performance mindset, but also
things like upgrading bodies through biohacking, the science
of epigenetics. So, there's a lot of stuff there
and resources people can review and explore.
And yeah, there is no I think in terms of how to get there, I
think it's all starts with awareness.
I would say, if during this episode here doing this show,
there was maybe Uh some inspiration or there was some
radiated popped up, use this little piece of awareness to
basically make me be--make node or something and then start to
get back to it and follow up whatever it was and this is how
you get started is cultivating awareness.
And so this is usually I recommend influence.
Is this idea of mindfulness said oh yeah this is interesting.
Yeah, then let's not just think about it, actually.
Let's do something. Maybe you sign up for an mvs are
classed way. I did this long time ago for
eight weeks and get a taste of what this actually is so that
you can get a flavor but you're doing something.
And if you're doing that by cultivating awareness, The Next
Step, usually what happens, you can better, observe the mind,
you can start what I mentioned before, can get into the Mind
debugging, or the Mind hacking, so, to speak.
And then, of course, when the mind works better, you can also
I'll go a little bit more into the body.
Start with some maybe some intermittent fasting.
Try out some biox tryout better nutrition.
Learn about these things, right? And it's a cycle.
You start a lifestyle. There's no, right, or wrong.
You just do a little bit of pieces that you measure build
measure learn. Right.
And then you make tweaks, or the whole high performance mindset
is a lifestyle that evolves, but you have to get started at some
point. And I think, maybe that what I
hope out of Show is that people said, oh, yeah, there is
something there. Let's let's review its look and
what can be done, basically together like that a lot.
Especially the addition that like, it's going to be unique to
you as well, and you have to experience and try things out
and see what works like I've done.
I've done things like intermittent fasting or like
drinking four liters of water a day and I know what that does to
my body like had to be a lot or was very hungry, a lot but also
State of Mind changed in that way and just by virtue of doing
that, you know, what it does to your body and you know if you'd
like that feeling so you can do more or if you want to change an
experiment with other things. I think that's a very healthy
exactly. As you coined it more lifestyle
rather than mindset I guess goes hand in here.
It'd be cool if we go in there go ahead and then but I think
the key the key thing. Maybe the last thing I say to
this is the data part only go to data, see how you can use if
you're good with data. Good with numbers.
See how you can, what kind of keep your eyes, can you use for
the mind for the body for awareness?
And just these resources, I pointed out earlier, right?
But use the numbers to guide you because you may be doing
something, it may feel good but it's actually not good.
It's don't trust, you're feeling too much.
Sometimes the feeling can get you in the wrong direction, but
I give you one last example, here vitamin D, right?
This is something you have to measure ER, take some blood,
right? The doctor's office word home,
we look what your vitamin D levels are.
It's not that you can sense them by his body awareness, or you
thinking, oh, I feel good. My vitamin D levels, would
shape, you have to measure it. Then you know, whatever you're
doing is going in the right direction.
And so I would encourage to explore with this idea of data
in the aspect of awareness, mind and body and use it to guide.
You basically now are perfect. The addition of data lot, it's
not something I do. I go very much based on feeling
and that's also what you heard back then.
I have never measured my blood levels, like maybe I should do
that. But that's that's a different
training thought. Let me, I'll write that down
afterwards. I'm going to round it off here.
Thank you so much for coming on. Rhino, this was a real pleasure,
a lot of thought, provoking thoughts for people.
If you have any questions to right now, I'm going to put all
his socials in the description below as well as some of the
resources he pointed out. So check them out.
Let them know you came from our show.
And with that being said, thank you for listening.
We'll see in the next one.