1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,080 Software engineering is evolving. 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:05,440 Things are going faster and faster due to AI tooling, but 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:07,680 processes? Not so much. 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,760 They're still the same daily stand up, Sprint reviews, 5 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,320 retrospectives. Do they still make sense? 6 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,000 What are the expectations of engineers within that team? 7 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,160 And same for product design, research and AI people. 8 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,040 That's exactly what we talk about. 9 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,040 Joining me today is Kate Ivanova, Product Manager in Big 10 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,520 Tech with many years of experience building products and 11 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,280 that's a real passion of hers and she has a newly found 12 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,240 passion in experimenting, trying out as many tools as possible. 13 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:43,000 So enjoy. I was thinking about kind of the 14 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,960 development phase mainly from a software engineering angle and a 15 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,240 lot of processes are you take a piece of work, you work on it, 16 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,320 you have daily stand ups, then you have BI weekly depending on 17 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,880 your cadence, demos and what was delivered in increments. 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,680 And if you like with AI tooling, this is accelerating, but the 19 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:02,240 existing processes are still the same. 20 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,120 Oh yeah, I'm an existing team, used to have daily stand ups. 21 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,800 People might get blocked multiple times in a day, but 22 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,680 there's no like synchronous touch points. 23 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,800 I feel like the processes are very much lagging behind with 24 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,520 regards to how things are accelerating. 25 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,440 Yeah. And not only processes like team 26 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,160 processes, but in general, like, I don't know, something that I 27 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,200 like thinking a lot about right now is like the distribution. 28 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,640 Because like, yes, it is very easy now to build something like 29 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:31,360 in a way, because then like you are building like a prototype of 30 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,360 product. But then like when you want to 31 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,840 make it work better or work faster, you also need to like do 32 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,080 it in a, in a right way, not not type coded. 33 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,680 But on the other hand, yes, processes are the same. 34 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,640 Like inside the team, the distribution is the same. 35 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:53,200 And like, it's like some part of the environment is very fast and 36 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,480 like it's moving forward, but other pieces are still lagging. 37 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,560 And you need to still understand how like these two or like 3 can 38 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,600 interact with each other. And you also need to think like, 39 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,919 OK, but like, can I actually change something in my 40 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:11,840 processes? Because they don't work anymore? 41 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,880 And I think it is important to have this, like, mindset of can 42 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:20,560 I change it? Like, because, yeah, for 43 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,440 example, like with all the agile rituals, they're still set in 44 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,720 stone, but yeah, they might not work anymore. 45 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,280 Yeah, this like one week Sprint, two weeks Sprint, then like then 46 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,240 maybe you don't need it like in two weeks if you can build 47 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,800 something in one day. Exactly. 48 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,320 Yeah. Have you noticed that people 49 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,560 look towards the product person for some of the process things? 50 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,640 That's been my experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, always, 51 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,160 always. I think it is because in my 52 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,560 experience, product person is the kind of facilitator of the 53 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,200 whole processes of the team dynamic. 54 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,280 I like. Of course there is like the 55 00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:02,240 agile personal like engineering manager. 56 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,320 But in terms of like how you as a product person, you have this 57 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,680 connection between like the business and the like team and 58 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:15,200 to make the team work, you need to also like work on the 59 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,640 processes and make change them. Yes. 60 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:24,480 So yes and yeah, it's been always part of at least my 61 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,400 experience that you need to also adjust processes and if 62 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,640 something is not working, also readjust. 63 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,960 Likely all of the teams that I've worked with were very happy 64 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:41,160 to readjust. So it was never like we only do 65 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:46,640 it like 2 weeks Sprint. Yeah, we have this like retro 66 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,840 every Friday. It was more like, do we need it? 67 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,120 OK. Do we feel that like it doesn't 68 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:54,040 work anymore? Yeah. 69 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,600 And then like we change it. I like that. 70 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,200 Yeah, I like that a lot. With regards to experimenting, I 71 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,960 know you've been in, in bigger organisations even working on AI 72 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,000 products. What works well with regards to 73 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,280 then processes or experiments that you've done improving 74 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,920 process for delivery? Well, I think first is that 75 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:17,240 there should be a mindset. The team is ready to to like to 76 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,040 change something because especially in bigger 77 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,680 organizations is like very like we used to work this way, like 78 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,280 the whole company works this way. 79 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,160 So why don't we need to change and like AI? 80 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,160 Yes, it's like big flashy words right now, but yeah, it was 81 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,520 working before. Why do why do we need to change 82 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,320 it now? So I think this is like the 83 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,920 first milestone that you need to like change or like find people 84 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:50,120 who are willing to change and with them try to build something 85 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:57,480 together with AII think it is like a lot of because it is much 86 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:04,320 faster like the the processes you need also the like for 87 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,560 example cadence to be more frequent. 88 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:15,240 You also need to like for example, in my previous company 89 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,720 we have this like 2 weeks Sprint and we set the goal for two 90 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,400 weeks. But with AI it is changing so 91 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,200 much. And also because like there is, 92 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,440 it is very new. You don't know a lot of things. 93 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,760 There is no playbook. Like now with AI we are doing 94 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,920 things this way you don't know, no one knows. 95 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,080 Even like people in love they, they don't know. 96 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:43,000 So you just need to be ready to adapt and to change. 97 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,080 Like you can set something like in the beginning of the week. 98 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,440 We are doing it this way on Monday, but then on Tuesday you 99 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,200 realise that like with this language model, for example, it 100 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,120 doesn't work. You need to change the language 101 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,680 model. Or maybe there is just like no 102 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,760 solution or you need another solution. 103 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,720 And for big company, it means that like you need to go through 104 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,800 the whole process of like making it like legally possible. 105 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:12,920 So it's like, yeah, I think the overall idea is that you need to 106 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,520 be ready for changes. There are a lot of uncertainty 107 00:06:17,840 --> 00:06:20,920 and you need to adapt and you need to be ready. 108 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,800 That like thing that you were thinking yesterday, they will be 109 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,680 completely different tomorrow. But with that, I think it is 110 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,560 still important that something that I do all the time, I still 111 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,720 have some milestones like OK, we are doing this like one week 112 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,480 Sprint and on Friday we still have a result. 113 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,720 Maybe it will be not something that we imagine it to be. 114 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,080 It will not be like working prototype. 115 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,520 Maybe it will be just a prompt and then we will have some 116 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,480 result. Because like prompt you can do 117 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,440 yeah. But even like if it it is not 118 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,600 ready, you still have a result, you still have a learning, you 119 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,360 still like understand something and you share it. 120 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,480 So like people also have this knowledge and then can iterate 121 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,440 later on. I think that's really smart, 122 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,160 bringing clarity. When I was PMI, thought it was 123 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,720 one of my biggest responsibilities. 124 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,440 And when you're saying things are just ambiguous and unclear 125 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,800 all the time, then it it's really, it hits kind of your 126 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,520 core purpose. So then having a goal every week 127 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,360 to deliver something, I think bit by bit you'll clear up where 128 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:34,880 your purpose is going with this product. 129 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:36,880 I really like that. Yeah. 130 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,320 Have you also then noticed that in building this, since there 131 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,240 are many things that are unclear, usually product could 132 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,520 say, OK, this is the direction, kind of zoom out for two weeks, 133 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,000 engineering team would work and then they would come back. 134 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,720 There was kind of this divide between product and engineering. 135 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,120 Have you seen them grow closer because of this as well? 136 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,120 Yes, they are definitely go closer. 137 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,800 And I think it is not only between engineering and product, 138 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:07,960 but between all the functions. And like I think in this era, it 139 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,560 is not a good idea to make things like in this silo that 140 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,360 like one team is working on something for two weeks and then 141 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,680 they like, sure. Because yeah, it's so unclear. 142 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:25,960 It's so ambiguous that maybe something like other people can 143 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,320 have perspective that can help you to move forward. 144 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,960 So I think it is something that I see a lot of change that like 145 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:39,720 there is no clear line between product design engineer and user 146 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:46,320 research data. It's very like kind of in 147 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:51,880 between. So now I think I work, I was 148 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,720 always thinking that like I'm a good collaborator with my 149 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,440 engineering team and like my designer. 150 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,760 But right now I feel that just like collaboration actually 151 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,000 change because it is not that IMSPM give like clear 152 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,800 requirements and then engineers deliver me the result. 153 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,960 It's like I give their requirements and I, I'm very 154 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:13,840 clear. But like what and why? 155 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:19,000 But then we work a lot together in collaboration because 156 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:24,760 something is not possible to to to do something is very like, I 157 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,800 don't know, it takes, let's say one week and like for me, it's 158 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,480 just not an option. And then we try to understand 159 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,160 like, OK, maybe we need to change something. 160 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,000 Maybe we can tweak things. Maybe we can do things not on 161 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,040 the back end, but was like with prompt. 162 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,400 And then we need to change something in prompt or maybe we 163 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,200 need to change something in design. 164 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,320 And so, yeah, it's very, I think our collaboration right now is 165 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,000 more frequent. And it's not that like we only 166 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,640 share results in the daily or like in this like review. 167 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:03,400 It's like more you are always in the topic and everyone 168 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,000 understands better like what is going on. 169 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,520 And this is of course, like very important for PM to have this 170 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:17,560 clarity to always share why we are doing things. 171 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:23,120 Because, yeah, it's not like delivery. 172 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,160 You are doing something because you need to do something like, 173 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,800 because you need to solve a problem, you need to deliver 174 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,440 some business result. And maybe there is like 175 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,680 something, some other solution, something to make it even like 176 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:42,200 simpler, faster that you can do together as a team. 177 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,400 Yeah. I feel like feedback has always 178 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,280 been big, but it might be even more of a big thing now. 179 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,640 Like the concept of for me as a software engineer, taking a 180 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,680 piece of work, then being on an island and then coming back up 181 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:57,680 and being like, is this OK from a technical sense? 182 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:00,640 That was like something that I struggled with very much early 183 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,720 in career. And the advice was always just 184 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,200 ask for feedback or even pair program, right? 185 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:06,800 Instant feedback is the best feedback. 186 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,440 The result will be better. And then if I think of the 187 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,200 concept of pair programming now with multiple disciplines, 188 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,120 because things are accelerating, I'm wondering if it's better if 189 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,360 we just as a few individuals, because I do think you can do 190 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,960 this in a small setting also as product responsible, if you can 191 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,640 pair program with multiple eyes on kind of a solution and get 192 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,680 this feedback cycle faster and faster. 193 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:28,400 Yeah, yeah. Because then you can steer, and 194 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:29,920 you can direct and you can experiment. 195 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:31,920 Yeah, that's true. Yeah. 196 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,720 So the faster we get feedback, the the better. 197 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,600 Like that's why we have MVP. We don't build the ideal 198 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,320 solutions. We build like something that 199 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,280 already we can show we can like get feedback. 200 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,280 Yeah. And I think right now it is very 201 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,560 easy to build something like your prototype in one hour or 202 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:56,560 like 2 hours and then show, it's like corridor testing or like, 203 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,240 and I'll show to your colleagues to go to the street and like ask 204 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,600 people to, hey, like, can you just use it on my phone and do 205 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,040 something? But also, like what I like to do 206 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:15,240 is to ask AI for the feedback, even though like you need to 207 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:20,240 understand that, yeah, like GPT 5 is a bit better with that, 208 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,360 like to be more critical. Like honest. 209 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:32,160 But still like you can show something for the AI and I use 210 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,400 it a lot. I, I have like different GPTS, 211 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:40,160 like different personas and I ask and I collaborate with them 212 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,720 because like the goal here is to see some blind spots. 213 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:48,400 So it is not honest feedback only like your customer can give 214 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,440 you like feedback or you can like see how they use your 215 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:56,320 product and you may you can make some decisions on that. 216 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:04,680 But having this like AI Co pilots, GPTS can just give you 217 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:10,200 some yeah, blind spots. Like I usually what I do, I 218 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,680 share my PRD or like something like some documentation or like 219 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:19,640 some my pitch and I ask like, hey, can you read it and like 220 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,520 give me your honest opinion on the blind spot. 221 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,600 And like you can, you can read it and get some insights that 222 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,360 are really good. Some will be like, really? 223 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,600 Yeah, that doesn't make sense. Like because because you ask it 224 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,680 to criticize, so it will criticize you maybe like it's it 225 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:39,920 is not that big of a deal. But still, like I remember that 226 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:46,480 before it will take me like in one week to find someone, like 227 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:51,000 someone from user research from someone from sales and ask them, 228 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:56,520 find the time in their calendar, give them my product, 10 minutes 229 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,480 with them just to like walk them through the user flow and then 230 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,920 see something or give feedback or get feedback. 231 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:09,360 But now it is like faster. But again, like it's not that 232 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:16,720 you don't need to do this like feedback session with sales or 233 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,320 with user researcher or with a customer. 234 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:25,760 It's just like you can now do one more iteration and get it 235 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,840 faster. And then when you get to sales 236 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,560 for your customer, your prototype, your ID will be a bit 237 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,520 more to the point. So I think it's really cool and 238 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,760 I think product like this is incredible for product managers 239 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:45,360 that you can actually have these iteration cycles more frequent 240 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:51,360 and then then to your result can be like can actually solve the 241 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,800 user problem. Yeah, yeah, I was listening to 242 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,040 this podcast. It was the diary of the CEO and 243 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,240 they discussed AI and how people use it. 244 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,480 And their main point was don't leave out your critical 245 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,120 thinking. I like that you said that you 246 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,840 prepared stuff and sure, you can use AI, but you're in control, 247 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,480 right? With regards to what does this 248 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,560 PRD look like, What are going to be the requirements? 249 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:12,960 What is this pitch? What is the essence? 250 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,880 And you can ask for feedback, but you're still using your 251 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,400 critical thinking. You're still using your brain 252 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,640 basically. You can also do the opposite and 253 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,120 say this is what I'm thinking, give me a PRD, give me a product 254 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,880 pitch. Yes, you know I I did it last 255 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,640 week with the PRD. So there is this really cool 256 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,480 product chat PRDI think you've heard about it. 257 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:38,200 I really love it. It's it's really cool and I put 258 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:43,560 a pitch like business pitch several paragraphs in the field. 259 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,880 That's for me. It's not like it's finance, I'm 260 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,240 not into finance, but like I know some things and yeah, I 261 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:56,080 just wanted to see what's output, like what PRD can I get? 262 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,600 And it did really good job. It did all well. 263 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:06,680 But the problem is that it was very like because basically AI 264 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,920 knows everything about how product work right now, but what 265 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:11,520 I want to build is something new. 266 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:18,120 So it can it gives me the PRD for something that is basically 267 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,520 a copy of already existing product. 268 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:27,240 It didn't innovate, it didn't like, it didn't give me the 269 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:32,160 vision of how the world can look like in future if I change 270 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,400 something in the way how like finance process works. 271 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:42,320 So what it means is that even though like you can build PRD in 272 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,720 5 minutes, you still need to have your critical thinking. 273 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,840 You still need to understand what you want to build, how you 274 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,320 want to build and why. Because like other way, it will 275 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,800 be just like something that no one need because like there are 276 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,400 already 10 other products that can do pretty much the same. 277 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:06,440 So it's cool, it can make it faster, it can give beautiful 278 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,640 like competitive research, but still like you need to own the 279 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,440 idea, you need to own the solution. 280 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,680 Yeah, yeah. This inside of this is not what 281 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,480 I'm looking for. Like, this is not the vision 282 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,720 that I have. And it just cannot get there. 283 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,040 Yeah, I think that's really funny. 284 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:22,960 Yeah. Like, and it makes sense, right, 285 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,839 Because it's so much strain on history. 286 00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:25,520 And. Yeah, exactly. 287 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,440 We are making synthetic data. Yeah, But synthetic data can 288 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:29,600 only get you so far. Exactly. 289 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,600 There is always going to be room for innovation. 290 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,520 Exactly. Luckily, that's where we make a 291 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:34,880 difference. Still. 292 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,000 Still. Still, Yeah, yeah, I think a lot 293 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,680 about product development and also how I use AI. 294 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,080 For me, the podcast is my product basically. 295 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:44,800 Yeah. And I've been trying to optimize 296 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,160 with regards to titles and click through rate and everything. 297 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,920 And now I have a full transcript that just gets generated. 298 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,840 I feed it to AI and usually I have a template to give me title 299 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,320 ideas, to give me thumbnail title ideas and everything. 300 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,880 What I've tried to experiment with as of late, and I'm quite 301 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,600 happy with that is I can really feel sometimes where I've hit 302 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,160 the depth of a certain model where we align and we say this 303 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,920 is going to be the perfect title or we have a few options and one 304 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,520 of these should be the most perfect one. 305 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,080 Then I switch models. Actually, I go completely 306 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,680 because I'm clawed first or Gemini this template, I go to 307 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,120 another model. I go to ChatGPT 5 or Gemini 308 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:23,240 specifically. And then I go, this is what I've 309 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,320 been working on. Give me feedback and like, what 310 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,000 do you think? And then there might be an 311 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,520 insight which I didn't think of and I improve and then I bring 312 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,520 that back to another thing. I can go so deep with regards to 313 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,000 this rabbit hole and back and forth. 314 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,520 I've been really enjoying that, trying to get to the essence of 315 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,360 things and being like, this is really what I think is going to 316 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:43,120 make a difference with regards to It's so simple. 317 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:45,160 It's like title, click through rate, but it's like the bread 318 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:46,720 and butter of people watching your video. 319 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,480 And I really enjoy that. I think I can take that with me 320 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,600 and also do that from a product sense where I think this is 321 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,680 really going to be my pitch. This is the purpose. 322 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,960 These are the values. Take that, use it in a different 323 00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:59,880 model and be like this is what been working on giving me 324 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,400 feedback or give me alternatives and then just keep going. 325 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also like switching models. 326 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,200 I also like use different models for different jobs, let's say 327 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,520 also Clot. For everything that I actually 328 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:20,960 want to write, I use Clot. But with GPT, like GPT 5, yeah. 329 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:26,600 Now I am using it also a lot for like my critical thinking, let's 330 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:27,680 say. Yeah. 331 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:33,160 And also it is interesting that we use these models not only 332 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,200 like for our personal project, but also in in work. 333 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:42,680 And I have this project where part of the product was a 334 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,760 prompt. And also like if you change the 335 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,120 model your your like your output can be different. 336 00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:54,680 So when you experiment and try to get the solution, you also 337 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,760 experiment not only with like back end with design. 338 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,920 You also experiment with prompt and not only with like prompt as 339 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,360 like text, but also like with the model. 340 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,200 But model can work better. And then like there's new model 341 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,160 and you need to check maybe it works better for you. 342 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,480 So it's like new dimension. It's cool, but it's like, very. 343 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,680 Additional thing that you need to know as like a team, as a 344 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,640 product. Yeah, it's like an additional 345 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:23,760 metric. Yeah, exactly. 346 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,680 It's a, it's a little bit out of your control. 347 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:30,360 It is not as predictable as any of the previous metrics and then 348 00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:32,640 a new model comes out. So it can be make or break for 349 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:33,880 your products. Exactly, exactly. 350 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,480 No, I completely agree. I'm wondering since you've been 351 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,120 in product teams where the purpose was to build AI 352 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,840 features, what have you seen with regards to product 353 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,080 composition or team compositions with regards to disciplines, 354 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,960 people that are wide or people that are depth or T shaped 355 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,320 versus pie shaped in engineers, But also beyond that with 356 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,760 regards to research data and AI, what is a good team composition 357 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:05,400 from your experience? Well, I think the main aspect of 358 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,080 every person in the team and this like AI era is curiosity. 359 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,960 So can you be curious enough to learn? 360 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,720 Because yeah, as I mentioned before, like there are so many 361 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,240 things that are unknown right now and like no one knows them. 362 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,400 So you need to just experiment, you need to try new ways. 363 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,920 So this is like the main thing that you need to have on your 364 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,360 team, like for people in your team. 365 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,800 And then in terms of like how I see the future of teams, they 366 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,680 will I from my experience and like that I really believe in 367 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,280 they will be more flat in terms of like, I don't know, when I 368 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:49,160 started, I had two teams of engineers and like in my, in one 369 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,800 team, there are like 464 to six engineers. 370 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,720 And then there is a designer. And then there's like part of 371 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,560 user researcher. I don't see that we need it 372 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:04,080 anymore in that amount. So I don't say that we don't 373 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,880 need these functions, but we don't need like 6 engineers 374 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:08,800 anymore. Why? 375 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:14,320 If you can create product with like 1 back end, 1 front end, 376 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,160 and yeah, and they can generate of course, like they need to 377 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:23,840 refactor it after. But yeah, it's like smaller team 378 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,840 that can actually go faster. And yeah, I think that in 379 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,520 general this will be the future. So you have like small 380 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,400 engineering team. I still think that you need to 381 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,960 have this function of like designer PM and to use a 382 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,280 researcher. Maybe they will be not like for 383 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,720 PMI think it it needs to be dedicated, but for like designer 384 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,480 and for user researcher maybe they are can be merged. 385 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,320 Maybe they can also be distributed between like 386 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,280 different teams. But I think the the future is in 387 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,920 this like faster iterations. So if you iterate faster, you 388 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:08,200 just need to be smaller team, more autonomous, but with like 389 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,320 all these functions included that like you can actually 390 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:17,600 operate as like 1 unit and do do these iterations. 391 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,560 So I don't think that we don't need engineers, we don't need 392 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,520 designers, we don't need user searchers, no, but maybe they we 393 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,640 don't need them in this amount that we have right now. 394 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,000 But of course, like, it is very different because honestly, I 395 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,480 never had, for example, use a researcher that is only in my 396 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,120 team. Yeah. 397 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,040 So it's always like shared between different teams. 398 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,480 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, My hope is that, and it's 399 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,720 kind of hard to do that now, but hopefully in the future it's 400 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,400 differently. If there is one problem and 401 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,040 we're looking towards different solutions, there can be multiple 402 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,120 teams trying to solve this one problem, right? 403 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,440 Because right now if there's one problem, usually you spin up one 404 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:57,840 team and they try and tackle that problem. 405 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,200 It's the same people. But if you already work in 406 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,120 smaller teams, then you can have a few teams trying to tackle 407 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:05,680 that problem and they can learn from each other, but they also 408 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,440 can just work very isolated and see what the results are. 409 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,520 And the results can be leading with the rest of. 410 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,360 This is this is very interesting because I've been thinking about 411 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:19,640 it a lot and they see that there is a big risk that when you have 412 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,280 different teams that are autonomous and then that can 413 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:28,240 tackle like this problem space, they can do first, they can do 414 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:33,640 the same things or they can go in such different directions 415 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,720 that like it will be impossible to merge them together. 416 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,880 I mean like the, the product that they produce. 417 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:46,240 So I think it is important in future to like still make it 418 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,640 very clear in terms of strategy and in terms of like alignment 419 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:56,400 on what is actually direction and what and how we are 420 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,080 building. Because like even now in big 421 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,440 companies like you've heard, I think this story is that like 422 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,000 for example, in Google, there are several teams that are 423 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,240 building for the same problem, but they create different 424 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:10,960 solutions. And then like the best solution 425 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,120 means. So it happens already. 426 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,240 And I think it will be happening more and more. 427 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,080 And on the one hand, I understand that like, yes, maybe 428 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:27,880 someone can make better solution, but maybe we can make 429 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,920 it somehow different. Maybe we can like not put all 430 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,120 the resources to do the same things. 431 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,320 Maybe we can distribute our resources in a way that like 432 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,200 you're working on this problem space, you're working on this 433 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,880 problem space, but we have very clear like North Star, we have 434 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,600 very clear product strategy. We understand our business that 435 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,520 we are in a way going in the same direction. 436 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,600 We like solving the same high level problem. 437 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,240 Yeah, I feel like it's it's the rules of the game. 438 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,600 If there are no clear boundaries or if there's no clear purpose, 439 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,760 then what I've seen is just anarchy. 440 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,960 They just go everywhere and I like that. 441 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,640 One of the expectations of engineers is to think more with 442 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,560 regards to product. Know your business, know your 443 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,240 domain, be close to your customers, know what to build 444 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,480 and then build it instead of just building things and getting 445 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,560 really enthusiastic about the technical side. 446 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,480 Like there are still people like that, but I do feel this trend 447 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,400 towards more product oriented engineers, which is a good 448 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,360 thing. But then if you have that full 449 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:30,760 responsibility, if you have both the responsibility of product 450 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,200 and engineering, then indeed you're kind of the orchestrator 451 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,120 of your own ship, and people can go any which way. 452 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,840 Yeah, I think that it is still important to have this 453 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:45,600 collaboration to have people with different opinions. 454 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,240 Yeah, because like when you are a solopreneur, it is cool. 455 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,760 You don't need to align with anyone. 456 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,120 You can do everything by yourself. 457 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,640 But you can be so focused on one way of thinking that you can 458 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,560 miss very important opinions, you can miss very important 459 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,360 point of views. And like, yeah, you can have 460 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:13,680 blind spots. And yes, it is cool, you can do 461 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,360 everything by yourself. But even like when I now do some 462 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:22,360 like side projects, so in AI, like some wipe coding tools, I 463 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:25,840 still share it in my LinkedIn. I still like just share it with 464 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,120 my friends. And like I ask for feedback 465 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,400 because I build it by myself for me. 466 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,920 But yeah, I want other people to also use it. 467 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,760 I want other people opinion. Yeah. 468 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,040 So I think it's important still. Yeah, absolutely. 469 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,240 The teams that I've worked in that has been have been the most 470 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,560 effective was where people felt safe enough to ask feedback for 471 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,480 each other. But also looking at disciplines 472 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,680 is when there was a good relationship specifically 473 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,720 between product and engineering. And I think I highlight that 474 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,640 because in some of the teams where there has been 475 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,320 dysfunctional behaviour, that relationship just wasn't as 476 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,480 close with the rest of trust or with the routes to ownership of 477 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,840 different artifacts. From your perspective and your 478 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,480 experience, what are the expectations of engineers and 479 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,560 have they evolved or are they still kind of similar? 480 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,760 I don't know like if it is our current market expectations, 481 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,120 some high expectations, but I really like the, the thing that 482 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,760 you mentioned before really resonates with me that like 483 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,680 engineers is not the only person who like just get the 484 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,640 requirements and produce code. Like no, why? 485 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,280 I can, I can do the same with AII can like put my requirements 486 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,240 and get the code. No, this is the person who can 487 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:46,240 also understand the product space, problem space and who can 488 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,480 also like relate to what we are building for customers. 489 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:57,600 I at Mira, I think this is like really cool set up that we had 490 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,960 where we had weekly sessions with our engineers where, where 491 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,600 I shared our current user problems and we generated like 492 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,880 we brainstorm together because they like engineers, they can 493 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,440 have some solutions that I just never thought about. 494 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,000 And yeah, maybe like they're very technical, but still 495 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,960 there's something that I can take out of this and like with 496 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,960 my designer and we can build together something really cool 497 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:33,680 and that I really like when engineers they push back for 498 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,880 product. I mean, like, sometimes it's a 499 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,800 bit too much, but yeah, whatever. 500 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,360 I I like the when engineers push back in a way not that like, 501 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,320 yeah, it will create enormous amount of course and like that 502 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,000 it will be tagged that and like we will die. 503 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,760 But when they push back in terms of like, but we are not solving 504 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,400 customer problem like, or this is not what we need to build 505 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,240 because like this is not our business case, let's say. 506 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:06,200 So when people understand different aspects of of business 507 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,960 and different aspects of product and cannot like and can, yeah, 508 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,040 say it out loud in terms of like push back in a way that like 509 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,640 actually makes sense. It is really cool. 510 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,440 And yeah, it's, it's for engineers, but also like for all 511 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,640 other functions. I think when you understand the 512 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,520 business, when you understand the customer, yeah, it's just 513 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,280 like make much more sense also for your motivation, of course. 514 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,480 But yeah, I think for engineers now it is important to have this 515 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,560 connection. Yeah, I feel like in teams where 516 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,240 people understand the business, like I feel as a product person 517 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,800 or in my previous role being responsible for product, I would 518 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,800 just miss things. The domain can be complex and 519 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,960 they have really good engineers next to me that hold me 520 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,560 accountable and say these are the things and we haven't really 521 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,440 accommodated for them. I love that. 522 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,400 It's like it's not me just thinking and being the 523 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,480 orchestrator, it's everyone thinking alike and then it makes 524 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,040 it so much easier to kind of build and do the right thing or 525 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,240 have a smaller risk of building the wrong thing. 526 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:09,680 It's all about risk management in the end. 527 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,000 It's all about trade-offs as well. 528 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,600 You mentioned one thing which I think is interesting and that's 529 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,560 the concept of tech debt within a product. 530 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,240 I came from a software engineering background with 531 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,200 regards to tech debt building things. 532 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,360 If it's too much, good. If it's too complex, is it worth 533 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,360 it? With regards to actually solving 534 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,000 the right problem? I would also be the person that 535 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,960 pushes back, so it naturally makes sense. 536 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,840 I wanted to try the product role, but I also felt like it 537 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,160 was my responsibility to have some discussion with regards to 538 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,920 is this going to be something we build and throw away? 539 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,800 What is going to be tech debt for the long term? 540 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,520 I've played around with regards to building features and having 541 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,640 small part of tech debt in the same cycle let's say, or only 542 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,040 doing product and then doing a cycle of kind of cleanup. 543 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,000 I still don't know what works well. 544 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,560 In the end, I just decided this is also a team preference. 545 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,800 This is something I can align with with stakeholders. 546 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,400 I can always create clarity and communicate about it, but if 547 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:04,960 this is the team preference, then let's do it. 548 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,760 It gives people energy, it makes people motivated, and I feel 549 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,160 like that's an under represented statistic. 550 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,120 It's like developer happiness. Oh yeah. 551 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,520 If developers are happy, yeah, your product flies. 552 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:16,240 Yeah, that's true. That's. 553 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:17,680 True. How do you manage more of the 554 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,840 operational kind of tech debt related things from? 555 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:20,920 From our product. Angle. 556 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:27,840 Yeah, I, yeah, I think I in general, I believe my team. 557 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,640 So like we have this always I try to build this trust and have 558 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,800 this like very clear, like I believe you. 559 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,600 So I really think that you can make this decision like better 560 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,320 than than me, than the product person. 561 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,760 But on the other hand, it is very important to understand the 562 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,440 risks. Like, OK, we can like ship now 563 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,680 10 features, but it will come with the price of like one month 564 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,360 of tech debt, let's say. Yeah. 565 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,440 And then like you decide, it's also can be something that like 566 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,280 you, you can have some external deadlines. 567 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:08,280 Let's say you have some like demo, you have some sales call 568 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,160 and like, yeah, you just need to build something right now. 569 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,840 But then you need to be very clear with like your 570 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,160 stakeholders that like, OK, but then like 1-2 weeks, we will 571 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,560 just like clean it up. And then with the team, it is 572 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,240 also important. I I don't like when we as a team 573 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,560 have something like for let's say 2 weeks only like cleaning 574 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,160 up the emails that we produced before. 575 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,800 Because like, also from your motivation, like what was your 576 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,480 two weeks? Yeah, I, I was doing nothing. 577 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,200 I, I was like cleaning up, which is brooming. 578 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,280 Yeah, exactly. So I understand that like for 579 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,280 your motivation, like, yeah, it's, it's not a good one. 580 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,800 So I really like to distribute it in a way that, yeah, we have 581 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,960 like we are building things like 30% say of our week, we are 582 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,040 building something new. Then we do some tests we like, I 583 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,000 don't know, fix bugs. And then we have this like tag 584 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,600 that that we also need to to deal with. 585 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,880 I think this is this is a good one. 586 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,239 But yeah, sometimes my team say, yeah, let's just like build it 587 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,679 now. And then like all people of our 588 00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:17,679 team will be, will be dealing with the tag that like if it is 589 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:22,080 your decision as a team and like, yeah, everyone is agree, 590 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,560 then yeah, let's do it. Absolutely, yeah. 591 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,040 I mentioned developer happiness a bit before, yeah. 592 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,320 And I'm curious to hear what your perspective is on developer 593 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,639 happiness or what what have you seen that makes developers just 594 00:34:32,639 --> 00:34:36,480 really happy? Oh, I think it's, it depends on 595 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,639 people. But for like for teams that I 596 00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:45,280 worked with, they are really happy when we make the 597 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,320 difference, when we create something that actually like 598 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,320 that is impactful and impactful. Not in the way that like, I 599 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,560 don't know, we increase activation for 30%. 600 00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,840 We might do it, but like, yeah, usually it takes time. 601 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,560 But yeah, we make inputs in terms of we adopted like, I 602 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:10,120 don't know, Co pilots or like we produce something with like this 603 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:15,480 new technology or we run AB tests and we already see 604 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:22,040 results. So it's yeah, it's just if you 605 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,520 can create this impact and that's why I like tag that is 606 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,800 very often is not impactful enough because like, yeah, you 607 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,240 you're not don't create anything. 608 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:35,960 But yes, I think that's for from my previous experience when, 609 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,080 when you feel that like you're moving forward, I think that's 610 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,800 when you have a lot of just like feeling that you stuck. 611 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,760 This is like the worst motivation. 612 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:53,640 Like then people really don't want to yeah, and just like go 613 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,920 to work, they don't want to produce new things, they don't 614 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,840 have any ideas and etcetera. So this is like the really 615 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,480 something that you should avoid this like feelingness that you 616 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,400 stuck and you don't want and you don't need you, you cannot like 617 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,720 move forward. So this is also very important 618 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:13,560 as APM to like sense this feeling. 619 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,320 Sometimes it's really strange, like some like, I don't know, 620 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,440 you're waiting for, I don't know, approve from someone. 621 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,920 So you as APM can just go to other PM and like really ask, 622 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,640 Yeah, but very kind. Yeah. 623 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,120 But on the other hand, like, yeah, just like this feeling of 624 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,840 are we going to the right direction? 625 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,600 Are we moving forward? Are we like getting closer? 626 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,240 It is really important. And I think for like engineers, 627 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:45,480 this is something that build their happiness and like this 628 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,320 feeling that I actually make the difference maybe like it is not 629 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,640 a new product that like everyone is happy about right now, but 630 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,640 this is something that I created. 631 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,440 Yeah, it's the, it's still a a purpose kind of feeling the 632 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,960 product is very much involved in. 633 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,520 That and I think This is why it is also important for, for APM 634 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:12,680 to create this like clarity for strategy and like to, to build 635 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,080 this connection between engineers, between your team and 636 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,560 the like business and like the high level vision why we are 637 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,920 doing this. And I remember one of my 638 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:27,440 engineers, he asked me at some point, like, if I now go to my 639 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,000 team and ask them, what is our vision? 640 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,520 Can they answer? And back then I realized that 641 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,440 like, yeah, they cannot. And then I spent a lot of time 642 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,400 to just like build it with them together. 643 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,560 So it was like our team vision that was Co created together 644 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,920 with engineers. And then at some point I 645 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,640 remember I was just like asking my team, yeah, So what are we 646 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,480 building? And they were like, yeah, we're 647 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,120 empowering like and it was really cool because yeah, they 648 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,080 just found this like Bologna and also like they Co created 649 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,240 together with me. So it was like also their 650 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,280 creation. So they felt very deep 651 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,800 connection with that. This is a skill for me that can 652 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,520 be really, really beneficial or it can be if you don't execute 653 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,240 it properly, it can really just make a team disconnect because 654 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:18,760 if you have spend time on a purpose and another person comes 655 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,800 in and we're doing this purpose session again, you'll feel lost. 656 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,480 I feel like where it works really well is where people 657 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,320 indeed feel connected to it and they can act and execute upon 658 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,480 it, right? There's a risk with regards to 659 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,320 kind of this experimentation culture that we have now where 660 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,160 people don't feel this fulfilment because you didn't 661 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,760 experiment and it fails. You can experiment and it fails 662 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,960 and you, you want the success. Communication is everything. 663 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,120 So if you see failure as also progress, then that can be 664 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,600 motivating for people because we're getting closer and our 665 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,120 experiments are becoming better and better and we are getting 666 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,720 there. But I feel like communication 667 00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:54,760 and clarity, these responsibilities as a product, 668 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,880 they are now more valuable than ever. 669 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,760 Yeah, with regards to kind of how a product team functions and 670 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,840 executes. Yeah, especially with all the 671 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,040 information that we have. Yeah, like all the Slack 672 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:04,760 channels. Yeah. 673 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:10,800 It's just, like so easy to fly away and like don't just out of 674 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,880 the sense of where we are, what are we building? 675 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,560 What are we doing? Yeah, yeah. 676 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,880 And I think it's in, in every role that I've done for me, 677 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,280 there's a challenge of tunnel vision because there's more and 678 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,840 more responsibilities going to engineers, but also product, I 679 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,840 think user research, data and AI, those are all kind of skills 680 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,520 where it's becoming very broad, which means that you only have a 681 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,160 finite amount of time. You focus on this one thing. 682 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,440 And the fact that you focus is good because then focus brings 683 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,120 depth and it brings clarity with regards to that specific point. 684 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,920 But you have all these other things and you might be tunnel 685 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,720 visioned. If I focus on specifically the 686 00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:52,880 operations of my team, I might disregard if people are actually 687 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,560 happy or I might disregard for going in the right direction. 688 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,360 If I focus are we going in the right direction, I might 689 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,440 disregard indeed kind of the process things. 690 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,800 And it really helps me with regards to the total 691 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,200 responsibilities that I have in asking for feedback because 692 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,640 people bring their perspective and they also have a focus on 693 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,680 one thing. We delivered products and 694 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,880 product after product. And the feedback that I got was 695 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,760 we didn't fix up this tech debt and I could make the decision 696 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,280 on. Was that a purposeful decision 697 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,600 or did I disregard that? Did I miss that? 698 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,600 And for me, that's incredibly valuable with regards to product 699 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,320 and growth. How do you handle feedback? 700 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:29,880 Do you have like a a specific process? 701 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,200 Is that on the fly? Is it more as you go? 702 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,080 Yeah, what kind of feedback are you talking about? 703 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,840 Like I think it's both feedback for you in a specific product 704 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,600 role you within a team, but also feedback with regards to what 705 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,080 have we done in the last few weeks. 706 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:53,560 Yeah, I think it is like, still it is very like I feel very 707 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,600 vulnerable when I got feedback. Like it's like me as a person, 708 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,560 like I'm a human being. So this is something that I 709 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,240 really work upon. And yeah, I think it is 710 00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:11,000 important to have this like, very open relationship with your 711 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:16,240 team and also like this kind of ask for feedback that is like, 712 00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:19,400 not, yeah. For example, I really appreciate 713 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,480 when people praise me because, like, you know, usually you 714 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,440 feedback when something goes really bad. 715 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,360 Yeah. And then you end up with like, 716 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,280 thinking, OK, why? Why I get only like this 717 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,120 feedback that like why I need to improve. 718 00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:36,480 So I think it is very important to actually like have give 719 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,400 feedback about something that people do really good. 720 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,000 Like I really like that. Like one of my engineers, she 721 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,760 she had really tight deadline. So what she did, she did 722 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,560 generated some code with like a compiled and yeah, it it's all 723 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,240 the problem and no one ever done it to the team before. 724 00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:59,000 So it was really cool. And like, we make the whole big 725 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,280 deal out of this because, yeah, let's show other people that 726 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,040 like this, this can actually be done. 727 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,360 So this is actually really cool. Yeah. 728 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,080 But of course, like when you got feedback that something is not 729 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:14,120 working well, this is like this is your moment of reflection. 730 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,720 But I think it is important to be in this like gross mindset 731 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:20,960 that first when you get this feedback, it means that there is 732 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,160 a gross opportunity. It's not that like something is 733 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,880 bad in you. No, it's like the opportunity 734 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,560 for you to grow and the same for your product. 735 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,960 Like it's really cool for you as a product when like you have 736 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,480 this, I don't know, like usability session and you see 737 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,520 that everyone nailed it. But honestly, like it never 738 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,400 happened that way. So every every time for us, you 739 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,280 have like people like you think that they will get it. 740 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,880 They don't understand like this button, they like don't 741 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,200 understand where to go. They don't see the point of like 742 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,880 this flow and etcetera. And of course, this is a 743 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,400 frustration. This is like normal because like 744 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,200 you put your soul in this to to build it and like it it, it 745 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,000 didn't work out. But on the other hand, you try 746 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,320 it and now you understand a bit better. 747 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,400 So like your next attempt will be better. 748 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,280 So I want and like I tried to think about it in the same way 749 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,320 product or your like personal one that this is something that 750 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,520 like we build with our best assumption. 751 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:24,960 We act with our best assumptions. 752 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,520 It's very rare when like people do things because like they want 753 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,040 to sure to know they also have like some good intention in in 754 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,320 their mind. But like it didn't work out. 755 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,560 OK, Now we know that like this way it it doesn't let's try 756 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:45,360 something new and for that also like how try you also can have 757 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,440 your like collaborators you can ask for feedback, you can ask 758 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,200 for help and this is fine like asking for help. 759 00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:57,360 This is something that like I also one of my lessons is asking 760 00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,560 for help is actually very brave thing to do. 761 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,280 It's not that like, I don't know. 762 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,560 I'm so I've been in product for so long, so I don't I know 763 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,200 everything and like, I don't need to ask for help anymore. 764 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,440 No, you still do, especially now. 765 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:16,240 So yeah, it's it's the same for for your product, for your team 766 00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:18,880 dynamic, even like for for me as a parent. 767 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,120 Yeah, you try something with like your best guess, with your 768 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,640 best intention. It doesn't work. 769 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,160 OK, we reflect on this, we move forward. 770 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,120 Yeah, of course sometimes you reflect on something you 771 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,040 understand. Yeah, maybe just like doesn't 772 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:36,360 doesn't make sense to even continue. 773 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,160 It's also important to to to mention. 774 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,640 But yeah, just try it out. It's like experimentation. 775 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,880 The whole life is experimentation. 776 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,800 So we we don't know. Yeah, yeah. 777 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,840 And and continue. Have you had that experience, 778 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,160 the last one that you mentioned where you you reflected and you 779 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,880 said, OK, maybe this thing that I'm building, maybe it's not 780 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:57,640 actually solving the problem that I want it to be? 781 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,440 Yeah, I had once, I mean, like, of course not once, but like I 782 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,720 think one time that was extremely painful for me because 783 00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:13,840 it was very cool product and it was a lot of resources, like a 784 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:20,240 lot of resources like the whole team and yeah. 785 00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:24,880 And at some point it's yeah, we just miss the the time. 786 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,920 So it, it was like the set of, let's say events, different 787 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,920 decisions and etcetera. And like the market that the 788 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,360 thing that we were building in the beginning just like at some 789 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,160 point didn't make sense. Yeah. 790 00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:43,960 So it is very hard, especially when you're like very near the 791 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:45,600 end you. Put everything into this. 792 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,920 Yeah, exactly, exactly. And also like if you reflect on 793 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,360 like, OK, like what what my likes three months were look 794 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,800 like I was building this and now this is like this big product 795 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,040 that like everyone is happy about and you don't have this 796 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,120 story. Of course it is frustrated. 797 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:07,200 But on the other hand, it is much better to stop at some 798 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,560 point when you understand that like, this is not what we need 799 00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:13,880 and refocus. It is extremely painful, 800 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:18,480 extremely hard. But this is so cool to to do it 801 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:24,000 and to have this like courage to to stop it and move on to to 802 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,520 something else. Yeah, for me, that's, it's a bit 803 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,360 of a paradox, right? Because you want to care about 804 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,200 what you're building, you want to care about your users. 805 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,520 But then if there's so much information, data or user 806 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,760 feedback that says that what you're building is just not, 807 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,080 it's losing its purpose, then you can push, and you can push 808 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,880 as hard as you can. And at some point, yeah, you 809 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,840 might just have to accept that it's just done. 810 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:50,840 I also feel I also saw this case when like you build something 811 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,080 you already understand that like it doesn't work but you still 812 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,680 can create the story inside the company. 813 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,600 You can like find the numbers that will show some progress. 814 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,480 Yeah, very specific, yeah. You still can find the quotes 815 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,880 from customers, like from your alpha users that that will show 816 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:12,120 the value. But like, honestly, does it 817 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,800 actually make sense? Like doesn't create an impact. 818 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,000 Yeah, no, yeah. I feel like then it kind of hits 819 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,560 your integrity. You're just window dressing at 820 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,640 this point. But yeah, it might be. 821 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,160 I like that you mentioned that people that are sometimes doing 822 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,480 something that you don't understand, it doesn't come from 823 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,600 a bad place. Yeah, I've rarely seen it come 824 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,840 from a bad place. So even there where someone 825 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,760 might be window dressing, they might really just believe in 826 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,800 only those specific numbers, filter out everything that they 827 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,960 think is noise but actually reality, and then still come in 828 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,120 from kind of their perspective. I say this a lot on the show. 829 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,440 I'm very naive. So that also means that what 830 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,640 people tell me, I believe, I don't believe. 831 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,400 They go behind my back and they do other things. 832 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,480 It's just the way that I am and it makes some things easier and 833 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,600 sometimes it surprises me when things are otherwise. 834 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:57,760 That's life as. Well, yeah, but I realize that 835 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:03,040 it is easier to have this belief than the other way around when 836 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,760 you think that. Yeah, everyone has like other 837 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,000 agenda. So yeah, I I am also like this, 838 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,080 this kind of believer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 839 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,200 To round off, there's a lot of people listening, I think mainly 840 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:15,880 software engineers, but also product people. 841 00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:18,680 There's a lot of things accelerating products with 842 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,240 regards to AI features or AI tooling with regards to 843 00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:23,640 productivity. If there if there's one piece of 844 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,600 advice that you can lead people off with, either from a product 845 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,560 sense or more from an engineering mindset, from your 846 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:35,200 experience, what would that be? It's to be curious and not 847 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,280 afraid to experiment because especially right now, like 848 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,840 honestly there is like no rules on how things will go. 849 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,760 Like everything is changing every week. 850 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,320 Like we don't know what will happen in one year, 2 years. 851 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,200 We don't know what happened like in I don't know like next next 852 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,760 month. So don't afraid to experiment 853 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,160 and just try it out. Use it. 854 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,560 If it works, cool. Just integrate it to a workflow, 855 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,960 integrate it to a life. If it doesn't, it's also good 856 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:07,760 learning. Then you know what? 857 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,280 Like what doesn't work, how you should not do. 858 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,160 And then move on and continue because, yeah, now is the time. 859 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,520 Yeah, we'll run off here then. Thank you so much for listening. 860 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:18,680 We'll see you on the next one.