Hi everyone, my name is Patrick you.
And for today's guest, I had part Pharrell on, he's a CN CF
Ambassador, as well as a cloud native community freelancer and
we talked about his journey. How he ended up in Tech in the
first place because it's quite a journey.
Nonlinear one. We talked about podcasting
listening, as well as starting versus finishing up at all.
Bart's socials in description below.
Check him out. In with that being said, enjoy
the episode. I was looking at your LinkedIn.
Profiles, worst kind of your job history.
And I noticed you came from a non-technical background and
then kind of transitioned into Tech.
Can you kind of walk us through how that transition happened and
how You Came Upon like the tech sector in the first place?
Yeah, that's that's an interesting, a lot of twists and
turns. So yeah, my academic background.
I got my undergraduate degree in religious studies and I always
have to explain that I wasn't trying to become a priest to a
public university and but just being curious about lots of
different. Makes religious studies combines
lots of different fields whether its history sociology.
Psychology literature even Arts, its kind of Limitless in that
sense. And so, I finish University in
2008, right? When the financial crisis was
was starting and not to say that religious studies degrees where
you don't high in demand from the Forbes 100 companies.
But I thought I had my first job out of college was working in a
restaurant. I was living in New York And
then I moved to LA. I worked at a school for six
months started, studying Arabic that I moved to Egypt live there
for a year to learn Arabic. Well, after that we moved to
London while I was in Egypt, I met the person who's now my
partner my day. I'm I did and so, yeah.
And then London, I got my master's degree in Conflict
studies and then after that move to Spain, since my partners from
here. Yeah.
And I started working as an English teacher.
It was the first job I could get in, kind of the only job I could
get because I didn't know Spanish.
Job market was also quite limited and so I started
teaching lots of private classes.
I had students that were working in Tech and now I'm in touch
with them for different things. I've been doing so interesting
how those things came back, and after four years, when the
second year of a teaching English, just as like, a side
project, I started a YouTube channel that was called, This is
English where I would just get on camera and do really silly
things. I have a friend of the former
student, who, who is like obsessed with YouTubers, like we
got to do some of the on. To.
But what if I don't wanna be a YouTuber?
That's not really my thing and nothing about this.
Yeah. But my parents put me in acting
classes when I was a kid. And I've always been pretty
Shameless. I was like, okay, I can do that,
I'll do it. Yeah, it was a complete, it was
a complete failure. Oh, we made about 50 videos and
I think the maximum got like, maybe a thousand years because
I'm just spamming absolutely everybody that I knew and
sharing every possible place. Well, what year was this?
And just not get the, this of this.
All this is such a long time ago.
This would have been in and also realize how old I am, this would
have been in about 2000, anima 2013.
Okay. And we would, we would record
videos at my house or his house and it was always like, let's
just record this as quickly as possible hated having to repeat
myself. And then I would pressure him to
like, edit everything as quickly as possible once again.
Not realizing that like, you don't have to do that, it
would've been much. So Harder to do what you're
doing at to record, lots of content, all ones and then you
start putting out there. So bottom line is, is that these
videos eventually we started making videos about my
experience as an American person living here.
And, and that sort of shifted the tone.
And there was also much more interest and less competition
because it was a niche there. No, there are no other
foreigners making videos about their experiences.
And so that that got a lot better responses because we
You're offering something that was easier to engage within the
people would share and all that kind of stuff.
Hmm. These videos and then the fact
that I had a an ad on a website for teaching private English
classes caught the attention of a British software development
company, no longer exists but they had a Development Center
here in Bilbao the city where I live, okay and there are having
significant challenges around Communications since most of
their staff wasn't fluent in English and They were having to
communicate every day with people all over the world and it
was software that was being used for e-commerce.
So this was, you know, when a lot of Boom was going around
Black Friday, singles day, all that kind of stuff, starting to
use, Big Data Technologies, actually starting to use
kubernetes quite early on first missiles and then moving over to
that. Yeah, so they were really having
a lot of problems with that. So they brought me on and I
started part of my time teaching.
Then my boss had my first day was like, I want you to organize
Events and I want you to organize them in English, I do.
And I was like, okay, we're going eyes anything bigger than,
like, concerts in college because I play.
I play guitar. I play guitar drums, and like, a
couple of birthday parties, and I'm not an organized person.
I'm amazed, you can ask my wife and as everybody knows very
disorganized, but I was like, okay.
So then started contacting the students that I had that were
working in Tech mother banks are Consulting even local.
Permanent and other, hey, I need organizations around Tech that.
Does anybody know anybody? And then leveraging the
networks, though, two of their about 100 people in this Dev
Center. Some people had given talks a
fair amount of times and, and also new people in the local
ecosystem. I started attending meetups and
meeting people there, and then just contacting lots and lots of
people on LinkedIn getting established connections with
universities. Other companies.
Like I said, local government different initiatives there.
Yeah. And but it was really learning
by In learning by failing, a lot of trial and error.
So that's kind of how I found my way into deck.
That's a, that's a crazy story. I love how it went from kind of
your journey in your University career, your educational career,
in kind of seeking out opportunities, right?
And sure it was the right opportunity at the right time
and you jumped on it. But at some point, this is kind
of the route that set you upon this path to go deeper into the
tech sector, which is, I mean, it's weird how opportunity kind
of finds you in that way, right? Were you always like you never
you probably thought you would end up here.
I'm assuming Yes. And no and more no than yes.
But for a couple of different reasons like my my parents have
changed careers and not because of like losing their jobs
because they decided like oh I want to do this or do that.
Now they're both retired are both very very active.
So I grew up around people that were always doing a lot of
things and also my grandparents as well.
And then when my brother my sister or whether as you know
sports or leadership activities in school and things like that.
And so for me it just didn't seem that strange to like get
involved in different things. Like my dad, got his
undergraduate and philosophy my brother studied film and Latin
American studies. My sister Early Child education
at the later Garden has now gotten a lot into the heart
space. Yeah, my mom was a school
counselor and then worked for the local court system helping
families, when there was getting enforced and couldn't make
decisions about where their children are going to go.
And then she's not later than involved in a lot of nonprofit
work. So for me, it it seems strange
as well, and feeling a little bit out of place.
But then seeing all these different examples, like whoa,
actually haven't surrounded by other people that done that.
So it gives you the confidence that you can do it too.
Yeah. And my parents have always
encouraged me to, you know, not be afraid and to try new things
and believing in me. And so that's that's something I
also try to transmit to others because of my background in my
experience. And, and so, yeah, you know,
someone said like Bart. Your path may not be the most
linear one, but you still find a way to get to the destination
and that Still Remains true today.
That's completely different from kind of my, I think growing up
environment. My dad was a security guard at
one of the zoo's in Amsterdam. He did that for 20 years, got
laid off in covid, but then still is doing more security
stuff. And my mom teaches preschool
kids and just now after like 20 plus, Years finally said, I'm
going to do something else. But yeah, that's that's been the
environments like this 20 years, bam, that's it.
And that was also kind of my, I guess perception of how it
supposed to be, or how it could be, or how it should be, I guess
back in the day but I love that kind of, especially the tech
space is nonlinear, right? You can try out a lot of things
that you can figure out what you like and what you don't like.
And there's different avenues for you to kind of establish
yourself and find what you love to do and even that can change
in a day. Tapped over the future and I
love that also. I think you take a lot of your
previous history with you. I'd love to know like because
your journey is so nonlinear, like what do you leverage from
what you've learned in the past and what you're doing now?
That's a great, that's a great point.
So yeah, that's that's it, right?
Is that, I think and I try to encourage folks to do this, and
I could do a better job myself, but, you know, track the stuff
that you're doing. And I do a lot of.
I've done lots of workshops as well, run like, personal
branding, things like that. And one of the first steps is,
like, get a photo of, you know, who you are your values, your
experiences, the people that you've worked with and then
extract from each one, the different learnings Yes.
And if you use a little bit of creativity, you can figure out
how you can apply, just about anything.
And you know, whether it's a summer job or a course that you
took at one point or just different interactions you've
had with different people and what you've learned from them.
That's something that I try to do often.
And so, that's the thing is like, I, you know, because of I
was working as a freelancer or, like, once I left that British
startup, I started working in video production but I am not a
Like producer in a sense of like, damn, couple of video
producer, in the sense of organizing Productions
storytelling, you know, working with customers and things like
that. Yes.
But I just was out of your hands yesterday the day before in
London. It was my first time actually,
taking a camera to go and record good.
And today, we're going to be with the editor and we're going
to sit down. He's going to want to kill me
because I recorded too much and that's going to be another
learning process. But because of having been, you
know, on the production side of carbonizing things for so many
different, Current events like, well, now that I actually have a
camera, quite simple lightweight easy-to-use.
I can go almost anywhere and start adding value in that sense
to. So I think I think a lot of it
is and a big thing in here to is like what's a smallest step that
you can take towards that goal? It's like, all right?
I want to become a devops or this or that it doesn't it's not
going to happen overnight. What's the smallest thing?
You can start doing so in my case but this is like, all
right, I have the opportunity to go record it and an event.
Is it going to be perfect? Absolutely, not Improve in the
future if I keep doing it. Yes so give yourself permission
to make tons of mistakes and ask lots of questions and but then
like I said you start building on that and that process is
really fun. Yeah, I can imagine.
I mean the road that you start on, right?
If you take the same example, I want to be a devops engineer is
going to be long and probably there's not going to be an end
station. When you say okay I've mastered
everything. Now there's nothing for me to
learn because it's a continuous path and it's a continuous
Journey for you as well. So, finding A way for you to
start small in the start early and to allow yourself for
mistakes, it's going to be kind of a starter to this whole
journey. Because even, I mean, I took the
example, or I'm going to take your example of organizing
something, I'm also not an organizer.
So my you say, I had to organize an event for a lot of people and
even non-native speakers and it should be an English like that.
For me is like a huge, huge hurdle.
And sometimes, I don't know how to break things down into small
things to start doing something like, how from your Give if you
have to organise something, or if you have your huge task, how
do you break that down into small bits?
I could do a lot better job to enhance small bits for the
things that I've you know, learn about myself to as being
diagnosed with ADHD is up. There's a common tendency of
ADHD be able to like like to make a long list and I think
it's true. I love making in the passing, it
didn't really do it but now more and more when I tackle something
like I try to do a brainstorm answer just like just write down
as many possible things as you can.
Yeah. And I'm also lucky once again,
non technical person but being around teams that use, you know,
agile methodologies like scrum. It's like, all right, we're not
doing a waterfall delivery on this massive piece of software
because we want to have iterations and continuous
Improvement. So we you know, working Sprint's
taken a chunk and get into smaller pieces.
What's a smallest? You know, so it's like, all
right for this to happen. I've got to do all these
different things, then based on all the things that have to do,
I even try to break them down even smaller things, but then
they need to be assigned in with a certain time because a lot, he
was overwhelming. I don't know.
I just for you but it's like for me.
He's like, feel like I have to do everything all at once.
No, you don't know. We're going to put these things
in order. We can color them priorities,
you know, stuff like that. And also when I approach things
I always think about from a people perspective of who are
people that can help me in this process and not just me a sense
of like, hey can you do me a favor?
I mean, sometimes you do need to ask for favors but like are
there people who I can involve paying or not?
Paying or I don't know what, you know, or an exchange of some
kind where it's there are certain tasks that I know I'm
going to do very poorly. How can I involve them in that
process? So that increases the chances of
success. I'm a big believer in as often
as possible making things collaborative because I know my
limitations quite well. And so knowing those like, okay,
if this particular thing looks challenging for me, who are some
folks that can help and benefit in the process as well.
I think creating environments where you know when wins big
believer that but and there and like I said we use scrum and
scrum is applied. Very differently in lots of
different places. Have you worked with agile
methodologies at all? Yeah, for sure.
Like on a day-to-day yeah and I imagine as well to from, you
know, content like a podcast, doesn't just fall from the sky.
You're like you have to, you have to meet with the person.
They're you know very various steps in the workflow and a big
thing, I think a lot of content creators that are starting out,
don't realize is that you might focus on just to blend.
The podcast is recorded at, but then there's a separate workflow
or a continuation of the work flow that happens.
Words, you know, if editing making sure you send it over
anyone, you're going to post it. Like and so I think sometimes or
at least in my particular case, I don't know.
How is it? You'd like, I want to hear more
about how you got started in this been, the beginning was,
like, once the recording is done, everything's done.
This is like, when you have an event, like, once the event
finishes know, there's another process of following up and
saying thank you and making sure sponsors were happy and doing
metrics in a report and all that kind of stuff.
But for you how was it to get started in podcasting?
If for me, I mean, one of the things that sounded like music
To my ears is. Someone said, this, I think this
is a great idea. We do a lot with knowledge
sharing and I want to do more with this, and I think a pockets
is a great medium for that. And he said, I'm looking for a
host and I'll facilitate whatever you need, right?
It's going to be your vision and I'll help facilitate that.
So that collaborative aspect was there from the very start.
I don't think I would start, or I might have started, I mean,
it's easy to say. Now I might have started, I
don't think I would start basically if it was just me
because as I mentioned, like, I see an uphill battle.
And the road is long and Starting is the hardest thing
but because he said, I'll facilitate whatever you need.
I was like, okay, I have an idea, I have a vision, this is
kind of the things we need and all of a sudden, he said, okay,
I have an intro music and I have the first guest and we have a
date now and it's scheduled and these are kind of the things we
can think of. And all of a sudden that ball
started rolling and it rolled real fast.
Now that person is kind of more so out of the picture but I mean
this is going to be like I think this is episode 95 or something.
Like now I have it down to a science.
Just it's basically a habit. Now, I wake up.
I know exactly when an episode airs as know exactly what needs
to be done. Still and I make it happen but
he had the beginning is so hard. Like, even when I have and I
have lots of ideas in the things I do day to day, I love software
engineering, but I also love more, so the business aspects.
So when I have an idea and I have to write a business plan to
convince people or like collaborate with people and
allowing people, then I just see an uphill battle.
But when I sit down and actually do the stuff, Oh, I'm rolling.
And I'm like, okay, this I love doing this, and it's never going
to end until it some, at some point.
It does end and I'm really proud of the things I do.
But just starting things is really hard for me.
I like finishing things and I like the middle of the road, but
starting, it's like one of the hardest things.
Do you start easy. Are you more of a starter or you
more of a finisher? A wonderful question.
And I know I wish we could, you know, pull or that.
You know, it's interview people that know me because they'll all
tell you I'll tell you that starting whatever you want
screaming and as many things as you is Fountains of, you know
started. But the that the thing is like
this goes back to a lot of Learners that have occurred in
the last year because of my ADHD diagnosis is I like starting is
like number one. You know I should put that in my
LinkedIn profile of like aptitudes and skills like best
starters, you could possibly imagine.
But then the other aspect is, you know, the war of attrition
of like kicking through the Middle of getting to the end.
Yes. And so that's the thing is like,
okay. So we're people aren't aware of,
you know, ADHD stuff is a normal brain or neurotypical or
whatever, you know, you can have an idea, you know, and there are
people that are plenty creative and they have different ideas
about different things. But in my case, in my case, what
happens is not with every single idea, being being a lot more
trouble or anything. The idea is accompanied by its
very good friend, Wonderful friendship impulse.
So that the idea comes in all of a sudden the feeling of and now
I'm going to start doing this. Forgetting that I have all these
other things and I've already started that I were going to be
neglected and in my head estimations, I'm if you read
like Cal, do have you read anything by Cal Newport finally
time management stuff like that? I don't think it's pretty cool.
So, here's this whole thing by Deep work about, you know, how
we live in the age of the attention economy, and Solitude,
deprivation, not being able to focus, Focus.
But his point a here, that's that I want to mention.
It's like that estimations in general are off by at least 50%.
So like, if you think or, you know, up to under like, if you
think this has got to take one hour, trying to take two.
Yeah, so when I'm starting something, it's like, oh no,
this can be super easy. Just going to do this is this
and you were like, oh, what do I get involved in?
So yeah, like I said, that process of self-discovery is
help me get a wonderful person to work with me.
Who's a screen writer by trade. So, very used to organizing film
And yet so his organizational skills are very helpful for me.
So he's been a big part of me being able to get to where I am
right now and also where I hope to get in the future.
But yeah, so like I said with I could learn a lot from you about
how to maintain and finish things.
What are your secrets? Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe, I don't know where it comes from.
I feel like when I have a flow, I can just go on endlessly.
Like, I've done video games where it's just, you know, those
gotcha games on your smartphone where you just grind out stuff
and it's a it's the same thing or same thing.
Aish. It's still challenging, but it's
over and over and over again, if you like podcasting is similar,
like I love doing it but yeah, I can do this endlessly and I
don't know where that comes from.
I think I'm in the middle, I don't see an end, I don't think
there is an end. Some boy, my video game stopped
or I started working and I didn't have time anymore.
So I had to make a decision there, but it's always been like
that. I like grinding out a lot of
stuff. And I really don't like kind of
the start hurdle of kick-starting things and getting
things into motion because I think when I'm sailing it,
Smooth sailing. But getting up a sale and
hoisting everything and like figuring out, I'm going to say
bye to land and going on. See, like that's really hard for
me. I feel like but I love that you.
I feel that go ahead. No, sorry, I love that you found
kind of a collaborative aspect to kind of.
How do you say that balance the facets that you really good at
and the fastest that you're less good at right?
And I think that's that's first of all really healthy and
obviously that like synergizes really well, if you have to get
stuff done, Yeah and that no I completely agree.
And a lot of this pain I encourage people to do if you're
not incorporating some kind of you know self-reflection and
some point in your life it doesn't mean you have to spend
five hundred hours a week thinking about deeply about
where you're at and what you're doing.
But think about the things that you use that you find
frustrating and is when possible try to find ways to make them
easier for yourself and really possible delegate them.
And that's been a big process for me.
Like I said, it's very were the things I'm not good at, so, when
Involved in projects always trying to make it as
collaborative as possible. Going back to the like finishing
stuff though. I think part of its, you know,
question of motivations like later today I'm going to go with
me with the editor, you know, and it's some stuff.
But then also in terms of things that I really like to do, like
something I've done recently is like recording videos of me
playing different instruments because I play different
instruments like the base. You can see behind you
electronic drum set, right here as well, nice and those things,
obviously. It doesn't take a long time.
And also I don't get obsessed over the quality because it's
just something for fun to put out there.
And those sorts of things. Yeah.
But I think I think a lot of its defining the parameters when
you're attacking, when you're at your best when you're starting
something is like okay, well, you know, classic thing, Stephen
Covey, you know, the 7 Habits of Highly Successful People.
You know, I maybe have, you know, half of one out of seven,
but the other thing of start with the end in mind.
So like, what is the end result look like, what's the definition
of success here? So, based on that, what are the
steps that need to be taken in order to build towards that
goal? And so I think that's why it's
having a realistic Vision, anytime you're starting, Thing.
And and also my problem to being impulsive is that it's like if I
have this block but then on the way I realized who I can have
this, I could do that. I always need to go back and
make sure like, how is it going to affect my ability to hit
deadlines like all those kinds of things?
Even if it has a lot of value, it's not was originally asked
for. So stick to the plan and like I
said, have a clear trajectory on that I guess.
Well, I don't question is well to you've talked to a lot of
people with a lot of different profiles and I also like the
fact of Blending not just like the technical stuff at the
business side. Yeah, it's been your biggest
learning since you got involved in this, for me.
I mean, especially in the technical domain.
It's like communication is key to a lot of problem solving.
And for some reason, we don't communicate enough or we don't
give each other room to like voice opinions, or we don't even
want to listen to the other person.
Sometimes I feel like if a lot of people just step back, listen
to what the other person has to say, and really listened, like,
without an agenda or without like trying to voice your
opinion or persuade someone, I think we actually hear each
other then better, and because of that, the collaboration
aspect would be better. And because of that, I think the
end result will then be better. Because I think somehow, like,
even in a team, I feel like a group of individuals just comes
together and the less they listen to each other.
The less actual team forming happens.
So the faster you actually like, put your opinions on the side
and listen to what the other person has to say, and figure
out how to do this thing together.
Like the collaboration aspect, I think the better your end result
will be in the The more you will operate as a team and even as an
organization for some reason we just don't give people the time
and attention they deserve and time is it like difficult Factor
because time and deadlines come from like a higher management
and gets like puts strain on teams and they do weird things
when shit hits the fan and when there's tight deadlines right?
So that's like I love that realization and that has come
through both the technical side as well as kind of more of the
business oriented episodes I've done.
Is that something you've seen Yeah.
Oh no, I love that. I think that's a great Insight
because like a lot of time with the technical stuff is
understanding that if you don't have the non-technical things
established. And I want to take this point
further about, you know, listening is that if you don't
have those sorts of things, establish your technical stuff
is not going to happen, you know, you do not because I
worked in telling Management's. Like, if you do not, if you do
not create environments where you know where people are, then
able to actually use their technical skills properly.
Like you said, if there's an iron we're listening is
happening, that's kind of create bitterness, that's going to
create resentment. That's kind of create situations
where people want to leave the company.
A lot of toxicity and that ultimately is going to affect
talking about your Roi, you're talking about your business
goals. Well what kind of process is
faces and procedures? Are you establishing so that
people can genuinely be productive?
Not in the sense of like a part of a honey, you can think of it
as a part of a machine but like, I'm not seeing as an exploited
resource but to really do things to the best of their ability,
I've taught a lot of Next week, I'm teaching a public speaking
class. And I've done this a lot, but I
always say, it's great to learn how to speak, but how many
classes are offered about listening?
Yeah. I mean, have you ever taken a
class on listening just totally curious?
No, no, never, no. I don't know why.
Like, I think a lot of people have said, you're a good
listener first and foremost like at work and as especially now
with the podcast as well, people feel heard.
But I don't know what I do differently.
Like I think it's maybe genuine curiosity.
Real city, which is a hard thing to kind of train.
I feel like, but yeah, I do really like want to know where
someone's coming from or where, that opinion is coming from, and
I don't really care if I'm right or wrong, as long as we choose
for the best result, basically. And I see that if I'm just a
bystander, like a third party, and I see people arguing, I can
clearly tell if they're not hearing each other, and I can
call them out on that. And they'll be like, oh, yeah.
Now that's not what I meant or. Yeah.
Well, why do you think that? Like it's just a Weird thing
that people don't have it. And I don't know how to train
for that, which is a hard thing as well.
But at the things, I think, I think there's actually a silent
demand for precisely that kind of training and for people that
have never been exposed to that are saying hey look you know,
maybe this would be a good idea that we can think about how we
can listen to each other. Better this relates to a point
was mentioned a good friend of mine who's the CTO and a company
in the Netherlands, probably I met.
Massive shout-out, is the importance of problem solving
because problem solving at the end of the day is I want to say
99% of what we do. But you know the software it's
like we need to To get this installed and we have these
issues that are going on but in order to actually be able to
tackle those things, there needs to be consensus before attacking
a problem. People need to agree what the
problem is. And then, of course, the steps
will have to be taken for it to be removed as as an issue.
But in order for people to have consensus, there needs to be
spaces where people can get their ideas out there and aren't
judged and that it's okay to be wrong and that's not a problem
and so building those I don't know, human sociological
Psychological spaces where people feel like they're not
going to be judged or criticized things like that is absolutely
essential. And so I think there is like I
said, I think there's a silent demand is very high in
organizations, to create environments so that those
conversations can happen so that people take a deep breath.
Remember like it's a job. Not the end of the world and and
perhaps the distance a little bit, the personal attachment to
certain things egos, that can get involved.
And so anyway, I love, I love. What you shared their because I
think that listening is such an undervalued skill and you don't
just listen with your ears. You listen with your eyes with
your body language, with your tone, with what something I am
trying to improve is once again, ADHD being impulsive thinking
about my response before, I just start putting out there because
a lot of bad habits that I have engraved is just like the
faster. Something is done the better,
it's not true. And sometimes the first thing
you say, may not be the best things like taking that deep
breath when I say deep. Not just physically breathing is
like, getting into your head and be like, okay, what are you
know, how am I going to stretch this?
How am I going to frame this? And so yeah, I think there was
there was tons of, there's tons of, you know, room for
improvement, regarding all things related to listening
someone like they should have like a department in every like
legal is Chief listening officers.
Then being that. Yeah, because to get to empower
other people inside organizations to have those
skills means immense potential for lots of improvement and And
better collaboration cooperation.
Yeah, I'm I'm thinking my gears are turning because I want to do
more with conferences and I want to stand more on stage and I've
had a really hard time figuring out like, what am I really good
at and what do I like want to talk about?
Like, I can pick a technical topic and, and figure out how we
solved it and put that in a nice format, but I feel like
everyone's doing that. And is it really going to be
different? Hasn't it already been covered.
Those thoughts are there, but maybe an interesting take would
be like, how to listen within a team and it can be in a small
team or a bigger. Emo in organization.
Maybe that's what I want to talk about.
That's what I'm really thinking. No, I'd go to that conference.
Yeah, really? Yeah, I think, I think like I
said, is, and I think as you rightly pointed out with
technical content, you can still, you can add those human
elements. You can incorporate that saying,
like, how do we solve this problem?
We'll use this software actually used really good listening, you
know, before we started applying our solution, but then the other
part of it, just like doing a deep dive.
Dive particular on that topic, which of course will have
connections with, you know, storytelling around technical
projects but now I think there's definitely plenty of room for
that. And is there anything that
you've done like you know is this a when did you know okay
but with the podcast because you you talk to a lot of people and
you're listening to things like that is is this something that
you've noticed you know in your family as well like in my case
like I would say both my parents are good listeners but depending
on what kind of advice or feedback on In for like old
consult one or the other, I can also post title taenia.
See ya, my partner's obviously a good source of of listening as
well. But who have been like
influences on you that it helped you grow as a good listener?
So we could listener. That's that's a hard one.
I think the thing is, I don't know if that's like a late
realization, but right now if I'm talking to someone and I can
see like I'm not really being heard like, I see that more
often now than I did before, and when I do, You see someone
that's actually listening. When I just stop talking they
don't immediately jump in because they're actually
listening to what I'm saying. Then I'm like, okay, this person
is actually listening to what I'm saying.
So those perceptions I now saw more see but when it comes to
actually developing this skill, I don't know what it's always
been like, like you I think I need to hide.
You say that stimulate my brain in a way that I feel comfortable
with it. That's a weird phrase but I'm
going to take it a step back. What I used to do a lot is Deal
gaming. And at some point, again, you
get quite skilled at the game you're playing, but it's still
entertaining to a point where you want to get better and you
want to get good at it but for me it was more.
So I go into auto mode in. This is more so churning.
So what I used to do, a lot was just listening to podcasts.
I've done that for, I don't know if it.
So it's not a decade. Is it a decade?
Is 10 years? A decade?
I forget the word in Dutch. Last time I checked it is,
right? Yeah.
And I forget the word in touch. That's why I get confused but
it's In over a decade. Yeah, I think I can help you all
very much. It's very limited, and donkey
very difficult language pronounce correctly.
Now, that's cool though. But I think like, I think people
should be thinking about, you know, role models of her like,
positive influences of like good listeners.
You know what I mean? And, and I think another thing
that I've been trying to employ lately regarding listening is It
because also once again, in public speaking.
Powerful silences, right? You?
Give this a little bit of an extra gap between a couple words
here and there or before you started another sentence.
Yeah. And it helps out a lot and same
thing with listen to me. So when somebody tells me
something and I really want to show them that I care.
I will not. I'm trying not to fall into the
Trap just like immediately coming right back and I answer
and sometimes too because like you said, when you can tell
people are really listening is that you say something Me.
And then they're not responding to what you said, which means
they're not internalizing it and they're only focusing on their
thing and it's like, well, you're not really listening.
Here is being polite enough to wait until I finish the right
back with your, with your speech, with your, with your
dead dog with you. Whenever and so when someone
more and more, when somebody tells me something and I really
want to show that one that just want to show, but what I'm
really focused is like, I want to wait a little bit and honor
what they've said with a little bit of space so that that
sentence That last point that they made its kind of hanging in
the air and we're appreciating it.
We're giving it time to absorb and thinking about the different
different things that we can do with it.
And it's really I really encourage people to do it
because for me, at least it's, it's quite fun.
I yeah, but like I said, I think thinking about, you know, role
models for listening and like I said, listen to podcast is
helpful. It's such a great format to and
not say, I'm not wonderful to see on video, of course.
It's a it stimulates different parts of your brain.
I don't know. There must be Neuroscience
around this, and because it's audio, but there's still a
visual component to listening because at least in my case,
it's like I'm sort of creating a, I don't want to.
It's almost like the podcast is the soundtrack for a film that
I'm like, directing in my head in the same way that sometimes
music will have that effect for me as well to that, you know,
different kinds of music gives me different.
Kinds of booths. Might make you like imagine
Situations are memories or stuff like that.
And what I love about podcasting is like, that's the thing is
that you get to you, get to become like I said, sort of
empowered, as a as like I said, almost as if you're writing the
story too. Because it's how you're
perceiving it in your head and it was a lot of fun.
So the podcast, do you listen to I used to listen to there's one
and that's from like the the old Call of Duty era I guess
especially on YouTube. It's called PK a pain.
Killer already think it was like one of the perks of that.
Video game, but they talked a lot about first and foremost,
their own personal lives. And they're all YouTubers as
well as video games and just what they do on a day-to-day.
And that show has now evolved. And has like, I think 600 plus
episodes, I haven't listened to it in a while, but the first
time I think 200 I've listened to all of the episodes probably
about three or four times because also, I would have
favorites and I would just put it on repeat and there weren't
any more episodes back in the day back then, that was a big
one. Then I Coverture Rogan, which
so, obviously one of the biggest pillars in the podcasting
community and as of late, I've listened to less and less just
because of TimeWise on traveling less.
But what I do think is that podcast is interesting because
you can speak but no one's going to hear you, right?
Because you're listening into a conversation, you're a fly on
the wall. And the only thing you're doing
is listening in, and sure you can have your thoughts and you
can vocalize them but no one's going to hear them.
So I think listening to podcasts in and of its own, that might be
kind of the way you You teach yourself or you train that
listening skill, that you have because there's nothing else you
can do. You're just in listening there,
it'll just like when you're reading you're training yourself
to process information through Reading.
I think it's the same with podcasting and that might be
actually how I got better at listening.
Now, that I've thought about it, you do you have that as well?
As you mentioned, you listen to a lot of podcasts as well.
Yeah, and different kinds in and in some ways, you know, to for
kind of stuff. So like I listen to a Two
studies podcast because they've talked about.
I always they go deep on like Niche topics.
Like we're going to look at the arrival of this particular
religion and this island and the 1600s.
It is just these random things you get exposed to.
And and then also what I think that I want to mention another
point to is that for a lot of people that are thinking about,
oh, I'd like to start a podcast, right?
It seems like everybody wants to do it.
So lightweight format, It's relatively easy to get started,
you know, in terms of setup costs and stuff like that.
The really important thing about listening to good podcast or
ones that have a lot of you know, people that are a lot of
listeners. Let's download etcetera.
Why are they listening? All right, and I really don't
want to say this in a negative way, but if someone like I said,
when I had my first YouTube channel and stuff like that, it
was just an absolute disaster. It's because we weren't thinking
enough and getting feedback, you know, be feedback.
Obsessed about what are people actually interested in watching,
you know, what's in it for them, going back to this thing of the
attention economy. I highly recommend people to
check this out because there's a lot of really good insights as
to why is someone going to care about your content?
I like, for example, this is this conversation right now?
Who knows how many people are going to listen to it and what
they're going to get out of it. You know, what's the value prop?
You've really got to put yourself in other people's shoes
and think selfishly for them. Why are they going to Care?
Chances are, when you're starting out, you're going to
make lots of mistakes unless you're focusing on a super mega
Niche where you have a lot of very detailed Val.
On a particular subject. Yeah, but to stand out it's
really hard because so many people are doing it.
So you got to be thinking about what's going to be.
You know, what's the hook? What's in it for this person?
Don't ask offer, what are you offering your listeners?
And so with different podcasts, different things that you get
offered. Like I said with the religious
studies thing I get to reconnect with my University experience.
If you like my degree was worth, something that was worth going
into lots of student loan debt. The way with other podcasts, the
one that I've listened to you most loyal lie, For the last
five years and is actually it's been incredible.
Because I've been able to meet some of the founders sound
Engineers people that have been involved in it, it's called ear
hustle, and it's a, it's a podcast that's produced by
incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people in San
Quentin prison in California, and it's become.
Now nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, like I said, they've
created a book, like, they're now on.
I feel bad about not knowing exactly how many seasons are
then, but like nine or ten, the Will host was released from from
prison some years ago and now others are also getting out and
I was able to meet in person, wonderful human being goes.
By his artistic name is Maserati.
He shout out to him. And so being able to connect
with them, because the stories are so powerful.
And it's also from people, whose voices, we never hear and who
deserve to be listened to and it's extremely powerful.
It's not for every audience has a lot of similar stories are
Very hard, but at the end of the day, it's an extremely Human
Experience. And so that's the value that I
get from it there. A lot of other things that
people might, but it's the reminder that incarcerated
people in formerly incarcerated. People are people and they have
emotions and stories and successes and failures just like
the rest of us and there's just a lot that can be learned from
that. So anyway that's that's been
like one of my go-to ones and the now I'm listening to an
anyway but I like I'm the technical side with with crew.
That is when I got into the daytime, cabernets Community, I
was absolutely terrifying. Like, yeah, I've been working in
Tech. I'm not a developer, I'm not a
devil. Obviously, I don't have that
those technical chops and so I was crushed by imposter
syndrome. Like I gotta start listening to
stuff and I don't care what it is and I run.
So when I go for runs, listen to kubernetes podcast and then I
would stop when something interesting comes up, I send
like a message. I have a dock and so I just
like, write down names or stuff like that.
Look at the show notes, that's been very very helpful for me.
So I do recommend amend people, no matter what field you're
getting into. There's somebody out there who's
creating content around it. Yeah.
And if they're not, maybe that's a niche that you could feel.
I like that a lot. I was smiling pretty with a big
smile because I recognize myself in there when I used to run and
listen to audio books or podcasts and it's something
interesting with pop-up I would stop and make a note.
I do jump roping as well, and that's it makes it easier to
stop and be like, put it away and make a note, just for
thoughts. And I mean, writing it down gets
me thinking and I can beat back to it later.
I write a lot more notes than I read back, sure, but it does
help me in it. Yeah, yeah.
Information because you don't have the stress of like, oh, I
hope I don't forget this do no, it's right down the you have to
worry about it. Maybe like you said, maybe won't
look at later but it but it's very helpful to be more
proactively consuming that information and then putting it
putting the information to some kind of actions.
However small they might be but I definitely read it very, very
useful. To do that, you know, for sure.
I mean, you mentioned like, this was one of my thoughts.
I had as well coming from a non-technical background and
finding yourself in a technical space.
I think imposter syndrome is going to confront you at some
point. Did you like through
researching? Did you kind of figure out how
to deal with it by gaining the knowledge that you thought you
were unaware of initially? Or you were actually unaware of
initially or what has helped you kind of face imposter syndrome?
Wow. Yeah, this is something I've
talked about a fair amount but now looking at today in the
conversation that we're having, it's interesting.
The different things we talked about, I'll probably give a
slightly different from more nuanced.
I suppose, you know, the math quite often and I'm very, I'm
very open about it. Like I've never written a line
of code in my life and I thought about different times and now
there's actually a thing to do with programming that relates to
music and I want to check that out more.
Because if I can find something more related to something that
already like it's going to be easier.
But in the beginning was really hard and And but I it's
interesting too is that I had also confronted it when I
started working for that for your software development
companies and and and so I probably needed to give myself
more credit, but the problem was that in the in the beginning of
doing interviews, with really talented, extremely experienced
database, Engineers Sr, he's people with very high profiles
in both vendors and in the user organization.
And so I get in there. I'm like, well, what am I
supposed to ask this person? And I mean, I, and now I can
kind of, you know, I can run with it because I know enough of
the different areas and and Trends and pain points and
things like that. You know, that even if I'm not
understanding, I know, full disclosure sometimes 70 to 80%
of their answers because they're getting lots of technical
details. I can follow along and of the
buzz words. Yeah, but my abilities are like,
obviously I can't say, oh, the same thing happened to me when I
spun up that cluster, And so I have to then look at other
angles. It means two different things in
my case getting and I want to do this more, getting a co-host,
have those technical chops because they're going to be
excited about talking to this person and they will be able to
dive deeper than on those areas that the other person would like
to go deeper on with me than it might be a little bit limited or
I can contextualize until the beforehand.
Like hey just so you know run wild with the technical stuff as
much as you want or tell me questions that you would like me
to ask you if that's what we have in our our speaker form is
like what questions would you like to be asked?
And And then also, you know, sourcing questions from
different people. But for example, like you get
different kinds of acronyms in in like with kubernetes, whether
it's, you know, Cube CTL The Logical State could cuddle or,
you know, like, At first, I was like, rbac and I got everybody
says are back from whoops learning learning by doing a
failing. Yeah.
But that's, you know, it was really, really hard.
I would say for a lot of folks, though, too is just that it's
Important. If you can get feedback from
people that can be gentle, but also to remind you, this is the
big thing, right? I've been my own worst critic,
like number one. Worst critic is me of me.
And you know something, somebody asked me the other day but you
know, like is there someone who's telling you that you're
really bad at a lot of stuff? I like, well, there is, yeah,
it's me that, but apart from that, I don't have like And I
don't say it's in the center saying, oh wow, I'm so good at
whatever. But but it's, but it is that I
think we're just too hard on ourselves.
Very often. It's that's why getting
feedback. I waited too long to ask other
people in the community space, like, hey, I have no idea if
this is going well or not, like, can you please like, let me know
a little bit of either a, you know, how I'm doing well, or how
I'm doing on these particular areas and then be much, more
importantly, how I could improve them because that saves you
time. I am in suffer like, I suffered
so much because of not knowing and and I and also in the
beginning to like, okay, vanity metrics obviously everyone's to
see more, subscribe to more downloads more this more that.
And then there's also, you know, qualitative things about how
many and you know how many people from our community are
creating content to bring other people, you know, to the
community like you know, how many conversations are we having
with top-level people and then use organizations?
And it's not just a number, but just the fact that you do Doing
it or like consciously aware of it?
I would say if I could go back in I definitely would have
reached out. Use the once again, leveraging.
My network of people that I know that could have said like hey
like you know I think just so you know when I did this I did
it this way or that way. So I would say feedback and also
the importance of mentoring, which is another way of
guaranteeing feedback get in touch with.
Somebody asked, if they're willing to meet once every two
months, you have a document where you can put down and outs
and things like that. So a lot of it can be done
asynchronously and you can meet like a Once a month, once every
two months for a 30-minute call, even a 15-minute call, it's like
hey this is where I'm at. I just want to check this in
this not and for your mentors as well to if there's anything you
can offer them in exchange, you know, in my case like hey I can
make a video or we can do this or do that.
I can contacts networking and whatever you put anything like
what is it, how can I help you? And I think there's always a way
that you can get some kind of an exchange there but I mean, in
your case have like what kind of feedback do you seek out?
Have you ever thought about having a mentor do you Have a
mentor without knowing that was actually a mentor to someone who
gives you advice what's your experience there?
Yeah, I mean, especially early on right when you were in that
place and you don't really feel comfortable in those
conversations or those meetings or even though sometimes the
work environment especially if you're new and early on, I would
ask someone. I trusted that was in that
conversation or in that environment like and tell them.
This was a difficult conversation for me.
Like what how did I come across for you?
And I would ask that to some people.
I trusted some people I really Have a connection with yet, and
that brought us closer together and they gave me honest
feedback, they were like, well, these are the things I saw.
And these are the things I then responded with and they were
like, oh, I didn't I didn't see any of that, right?
Because your perception of yourself is a very critical one,
very harsh one. I 100% recognize that and I
agree with you, right? That puts a burden on you, that
is stress innate stress. And if someone can load off that
burden and be like, well, these are the things you do really
well. And these are the things, I
think you can focus on. On and sometimes they won't even
say what you can focus on because they only saw like the
positive things. Even though you have all the
negative things in your head, I think that's such a relief,
listening to the someone's say that and giving you that
feedback, you also have to be like a little bit as harsh on
yourself when someone give you criticism and critique, right?
Because that is feedback that comes from a good place.
That means they care and they can see you do better with the
things they have in mind. And with that in mind you can be
less harsh on yourself and Focus on something you can work with
and work towards. I think that's a way more
healthy mindset than just being in isolation and trying to
figure out. If you're doing the right thing
just taking that step and asking for someone to give you feedback
I think is going to be very very much a relief in your career
Journey. Much much agreed and I think
that's, it's a simple as saying, this is my perception and that's
the thing. We have to tell ourselves like a
perception is just a perception bounce that off.
Somebody else. A do you would you agree or
maybe I'm off here in my case. Been very off about a lot of
things, but I needed that confirmation from someone
external who I trust and respect.
And, and sometimes, you know, in from multiple angles and
multiple sources. I would also say, culturally
speaking. Dutch people, People are better
equipped to get and give feedback because Dutch people, I
didn't compare to Americans but for direct so and I love that.
And same thing, I can work with an amazing person.
So, long kailash is French for French people.
Nothing is ever good enough. Everything is always shit, but
that's really healthy because it pushes you to do better.
Also, once get, respect yourself and can election stuff when I
say about that is because being American Americans are classic
for like dancing around, you know, something that's And say,
oh, it's phenomenal. And it's like, oh if you hear
that means probably awful. Yeah.
Are they, it's interesting. I've heard that one.
It's different. Oh that's that's interesting.
Total crack. And so that's why it's like but
I understand they do have the intention to offend you.
So terrified of offending you that at the end of offending you
more by not telling you the truth and once again I'm
generalizing to Country 323 million people don't get in and
I do not do. I completely do that because I
don't want to. I don't want to hurt somebody's
feelings, but if they're genuinely asking, you can see it
in a nice way. And once again, this is just my
perception. Here's my feedback as somebody
else, you're going to get a different answer but I think
it's really important to build that into any process that
you're doing in your life so that you don't beat yourself up
too much more realistic. And so, that's why a lot of
people stop their ideas because they're expecting too much in
the first two episodes of the first, you know, three podcast
or whatever they're doing. Yeah, it just takes time and
most the time you're First thing I'm probably not going to be
very good at least my case but that's just part of the process
of getting to the next step. Yeah, your case.
You were very lucky that you just showed up and that's but
it's great and I'm really happy for you.
It was your case. So yeah, this is great stuff.
Absolutely. I have one final question, which
I still had in mind of asking because you're one of the few
people that actually puts their can only link somewhere on their
social media. Like I saw it, it's on your
Twitter. I don't know if I'm your
LinkedIn but people can reach out to you and schedule
something and have a conversation with you.
First of all, do a lot of people do that because I assumed like a
lot of people would and the second of all like what is the
most interesting conversation you've had through that.
Oh, that's really good. So yes, my calendar link is on
my Twitter actually, probably should put up my LinkedIn.
One of the things that I'm working on, in terms of
organizing, myself, better is having very specifically blocked
off times for specific things. I imagine you as well, with
podcasting, you know? Like, all right, do the
recordings on Fridays. We do on Mondays, whatever.
And and so for me, once again, the part of the past was like
I'm available at all hours to do everything that I do really bad
idea that's hard and it's paid and And a it's a big learning.
So now it's like okay these calls and these things happen on
these days, there will be exceptions because Global you
know, you talk to people all over the world and I do too.
And so I was got India's either three and a half or four and a
half hours ahead, depending on the time of the year.
California's, nine hours behind except for one part of the Year
where the eight. But so, yeah.
In that sense with the calendars that and I'm really going to add
more Focus to it because of, you know, started interview folks
that are the He's based interviewing folks that are in
the ADHD space so that everything's very well targeted
very well explained and that also on every calendar Link in
order for me to be better prepared for the call to get as
much out of it is informing the person can you please send over
these three and three answers to these questions before we have a
conversation to be as productive as possible for me as well as
for them. And that way I can prepare, I
can be thinking about, okay, these are the different things
you can do here. So, going back to your question
about, like, what kind of conversations am I having?
I do a lot of mentoring. Done with young people that are
in the kubernetes face and they need mentoring for guidance on
how to get started contributing to open source projects that
kubernetes. I've had so many conversations
about this, that I'm actually going to create some videos that
I want to share with them before we meet.
So that then they can already be prepared because when you see
that you're answering the same question all the time, it's
okay. It's not a problem for me, but
to make it easier for others out there to get to the next step.
It's like don't worry I just took care of the first few steps
for you. Yeah you just you just gotta
watch these fall of action points and then we'll move.
Move on once we have a conversation and will actually
be talking about something that's more of an advanced
phase, right? So I do a lot of calls around
that and also, you know, as by extension, everyone's always
thinking about, you know, how can I get a job, internship,
stuff like that. Some, like, favorite things that
I've done in, in my professional experience, been working with
working with younger, folks, and also, unemployed people and
being able to be a part of like those situations, even if the
smallest step where like, you see that you can have an impact
to make a Friends, those things like I would pay to have those
opportunities, so like those are those like I said, most of the
things are around that, but I learned a lot because the
questions and doubts that people have, and I've learned that I
can provide a space where it's because I always say it like
this. It's like a doctor or
psychologist. If you don't tell me your
problems I can only. I can only help you as much as
you're willing to share your difficulties because if I don't
know them, I can't possibly propose anything and perhaps
Apps. I may know somebody an extensive
network spend a lot of time. Connecting people with different
initiatives into the more information.
You give me in the more precise. It is the better.
This is going to be for everybody and like I said, a lot
of conversations are around that.
I'm definitely excited to branching out into other areas
and in in and I love what you're doing of, you know, talking to
people that are in a technical or business space.
But then you also involve lots of other elements, not same
track and might want to try to help you, but But but no is that
I think these kinds of conversations are wonderful and
to do it in public and even better.
Because not only is it good for your own Learning Journey, but
it a lot of other people. It gives them lots of different
opportunities to connect with different elements, and I think
that's an amazing. So, yeah, I'm hoping to have
like, and then the now, like I said, with the ADHD, think I'm
going to come, you know, having more conversations with people.
First, we just do like an intro call as you do as well, which I
think is great because then it's going to guide you a little bit
more like, yeah. Yeah, I do have a standard
format with ADHD think with ADHD people, you don't need any
format because we can be talking about Jurassic Park and then we
can talk about the stock market. So it doesn't matter in the same
sentence and but still, I think it's helpful for the audience
and we're always tackling certain things.
Yes, there's going to be room to go around to different areas,
also, from a Content organization perspective.
In my case, then I know that I can separate these things into
chunks. You can have quote, videos
things like that. It makes it easier because it is
someone's home. 45-minute reporting.
That's a big ask. And I don't want to make it easy
for him and show you the highlights.
So anyway, these are the conversations that I'm having
and looking at more. I like that.
I'm thinking about that myself as well.
I think that could be an interesting experiment just to
see what conversations and what problems people have and why
they come to me in the first place with those.
I think just it's an interesting experience in a learning for me,
but I've Loved this conversation so far but I'm going to round it
off here. I love talking about podcasting
listening everything to do with kind of your career.
Are in your perception on things.
I could do this all day actually, I could go on for
hours but at some point we actually have to end of the
episode. So that was what that's what I'm
going to do. Is there anything you'd still
like to share with our audience before we round off?
Um hit me up. I think I like talking to people
of all different kinds of backgrounds and what's one of
the cool things while to about being a freelancer is that I'm
going to touch so many different areas and in four different
positions. Some people may not have that
kind of Freedom, that's like I could be doing this over here
and one moment and I could be doing something else in another
area. But I love talking to people, I
love learning from people. And so, yeah, just in
particular, as well too for non-technical folks that are in
Technical spaces. That's something that I'm really
interested in doing more as well.
And so yeah but people can see all the different things I'm
involved in. If you like that, something
might be interesting to reach out and see what's going on.
Be more than happy to do. So I'll be in Amsterdam in
April. I don't know when this will be
coming up for this in the past and the future.
But but anyway, I hope to be able to hang out with you in
person. Absolutely.
And yeah this is wonderful. So I think so much for your time
today. I really appreciate it.
Awesome. Thank you so much Bart.
Feel free to hit him up. I mean, this is a scandal, he's
on the LinkedIn, so that'll be fun.
See, how many people hit your from the podcast.
But in any case, thank you so much for listening and make it
up. I'm gonna put all Bart's socials
in the description below. Check him out.
And with that being said, I will see you on the next one.