Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akio and if
you're interested in open source systems thinking distributive
systems and much, much more this episode is for you.
Joining me today is William Reid.
So, what a fantastic guy is a lead, architect over at Sue's,
and we had a blast of a conversation, I'll put all his
socials in description below, check them out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode in struggling with
that because I like audio books. I like listening to stuff.
Yep, that is my kind of Offered medium also to learn, I figured
out but then it's really hard because because it is audio, I
can do other stuff so I do them. And then sometimes I feel like
the information doesn't process as much as if I would sit down
and read have some trying to trying to figure out if I need
to like take notes or something. Like, I need to feel like I need
to up my note-taking game. Yeah, during listening to
audiobooks because otherwise, you just vanishes.
Yeah, I had, I had, I tried I had the same problem when I
tried, I kind of note taking In technique that didn't work that.
Okay, well, I was when I when they were mentioning something
or I would hear something that is worth to look into.
Yeah, I would open a tab on my browser and I would just open a
page and put it there and then continue the work that I've also
done that. Yeah, it doesn't work.
Right? Absolutely doesn't work.
It's like you have like 1,900 tabs open.
Yeah, you know and you know you don't know what the music is
coming from. No, you don't want to close the
line that right and up, Justin. Mess yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So now I do take my notes and sometimes also the old way, you
know. Yeah.
A pain. And it's just the yeah.
And I networks but it absolutely.
I also like, prefer to listen to things.
Interesting. I do you listen to a lot of
audiobooks and as well I do what I'm driving with the car may be
a long trip. Then I like to listen to an
audiobook but they wouldn't be necessarily technical.
Yeah. But if I'm I found myself,
buying technical books, like physical books.
Yeah. But listen, no podcast.
And sometimes videos as well on YouTube but just let it run and
I'm listening it in the in the headset and then maybe I pause
what I'm doing and I go back to the video.
If I listen to something that I if I hear something that it's
really worth checking out. But other than that, yeah,
that's it. Imagine I've been listening to.
It's called the engineering managers path is bike.
Emile Fournier. And she's not, she's not reading
the book, which also thought like maybe that's a bit odd.
I expected the authors also read the book or like do the
voiceover for the audio book, but it's not her, but
regardless, I feel like the essence of the contents really
good, but then I'm just like, if I were to say what she said so
far, and I've listened to a few hours, it be really small
because I probably, I feel like I recollect small bit of it, so
I'm struggling with that, but I'm trying to listen to more
technically oriented books. It's just hard.
It is to figure out how to retain that info it is I, I
think, I think so. I think I have the same problem
to retain information when it's just when adjust here yet, but
if I'm, if I'm reading it, somehow, I'm giving it a shape
in my exactly. So, yeah, I can I can, you know,
I can call that address in memory but I need it.
It's a good one. I don't know if it has to do
with Focus. I do like audios a medium also
because I can do other stuff. And you mentioned driving, I
don't really drive, but I don't even know what I do.
Sometimes I clean, I cleaner. I cook and I like to listen to
stuff. But yeah, maybe it's because of
that multi-processing that it doesn't retain as much as when I
sit down you just because then I'm only doing that can't really
do anything else. Yeah, I think well I think that
we do work a lot with visualization when we are
learning something. Hmm the There is there is this
Nobel Prize that mentioned that like the work with system one
and system two we have our system one which is the system
in our brain that we engage to do mundane things.
That were, it doesn't, it doesn't require our attention.
Yeah, whereas system, two is, the one that we really need to
spend energies in and we can't engage in to type of system to
activities. We can only do a system.
One system to work DVD and one system, one activity and the
system, one activity can affect the system to or can end up not
being done. Well, they example is like,
you're driving and, you know, maybe you're driving in the city
and you're having an argument with the person sitting beside
you, you are very, very likely to have an accident because
system to is engaged and the activity that you have going on
is also a system to type activity.
He's getting a lot of energy, a lot of processing in your head.
Yeah. Yeah, so I think that you
wouldn't be able to learn anything if you're doing the
learning part, or maybe audio. Yeah, and you are also cleaning
up your also. I don't know, sorting out things
on your computer because those are kind of two system to
activities. Yeah, they interfere.
Yeah, they do interfere. So, interesting.
I've never heard that theory about the system to in the
system one, but I think I think the book is thinking fasting is
low, okay? So that's on my list at the
listen to as an audiobook that we have to have the book over
there behind us. It's a Tyree recommended it.
Yeah, it's a good book. I'll put that on my list.
I'll take that next. It just thing.
But I do feel like it's recognizable but also like, when
I'm picking up something new, I feel like that is system to
like, I'm really engaged and I feel like time slows down,
right, right. They, I like even both ways,
sometimes it slows down and sometimes it even goes faster.
I don't quite recognize when what happens, but then, When
I've done that over and over and over again, then I'm like, okay,
now that I've done this, it's kind of more so autopilot, and
then I feel like I can put an audio book on and like, dude
stuff at the same time, but maybe it still system to that.
That's my my Pitfall. Yeah, maybe, maybe I think that
it you, well, I think there are activities that can go from one
system to another one when they become your your habit.
Let's go to The Habit. They can go and of to the system
one. Yeah.
However you might have the impression like you're driving
and you just all of a sudden you become, you become a good
driver. You know, you're confident and
comfortable. Just start picking up your
phone. Just sending out messages via
phone while you're driving and it doesn't mean that you are
good at driving so you can pick up the phone, it makes it just
means that You are getting off the focus and now the focus is
shifting on something else that I actually can become dangerous.
Yeah. Interesting.
And it also, I feel like it's no balls, right?
Because probably I don't drive. So I've never done this but I
feel like some people would start out and they'll be like
I'm just going to check what notification that was.
Yeah. And then they do it again and
then I'll just send a fast reply.
Yeah. And the next thing.
They like browsing ready and driving at the same time.
Like it. Escalates.
Right. Right in their mind.
They probably don't see the gradually of how it escalates.
And you find yourself at a point where just looking at your phone
already driving anymore, right? Right.
Which is very dangerous. It is it is I and driving a
motorbike you notice that a lot. Hmm.
So sometimes I always look at the wheels of a car, not
necessarily at the car. Hmm to see what is, what is
happening with that car? And you see this, this car may
be like, waving from left to right?
Not a lot a little bit which is still for most people is still
not. Problem.
Yeah, but for a biker not a biker is very vulnerable right
to whatever happens in the road so I'm double careful.
Yeah. And when I pass a car like that,
I noticed that they are busy with their phone.
Yeah. And that is what you don't
notice. You use the attention that you
put in the phone. And extends over in time it
extends the more you the more you do it.
Yeah. And all of a sudden, I hope some
people realize that they're having their eyes on the phone
for something like 30 seconds, and they're not looking at the
road anymore. And yeah, the second think there
are a lot of things. Yeah.
And on the road, that's a long time, right?
Yeah. If you see them wobbly, I mean,
especially on a motorbike, like, I can imagine, that's pretty
scary. Yeah, yeah, it's scary because
that that person can maybe get up.
Set or something, shift the attention and right things go
wrong. Yeah I can imagine.
I mean, when you're, when you're picking up a new topic and I
assume you do that very often because it's just a field, we
were in. Sometimes we have to pick up a
new topic. Do you really like, lay down
everything and focus on the specific topic or what is your
process sometimes I do? I like to to I have built up a
process on my own kind of a routine.
Okay? It's like putting everything
into little boxes but mental boxes, kind of I let's say I
need to learn something work wise or I need to learn
something and I just create my little space and I'll say okay
from this time until this time I'm going to do that and I'm
going to put away everything. Yeah.
It doesn't always go the way you plan it, but it did that.
That is that is the idea. I I listened at a Tech head
once. Yeah.
And there was this man talking about how the sex, how
successful inventors, put things into physical or mental boxes.
Yeah, to pick up where they left and I tried it.
It works. I should use more physical boxes
than mental boxes, maybe but with digital work is difficult
to to to do so. But I try to do that.
Very interesting. Yeah, I had a friend of my own
on. She had some agouti and she's a
product manager and I was like, okay?
Like the idea of managing a backlog and like prioritizing
figuring out what goes first and where the value is?
It's like, how do you do that? It's just like I put everything
in boxes. That's the first thing.
She said, I put everything in mental boxing.
Is with regards to the categories and then we align
okay. What goes first from which
bucket do we do a full bucket at once or do we not do that but
you categorize everything in buckets and when she lay it out
I was like okay categorization that makes a little sense and I
don't think I do that consciously but definitely
subconsciously. I'm not cook at this cuz there
that goes. There we do that.
Yeah for it to make sense. Yeah we do that.
We need to. We need to relate to previous
knowledge to that that we have previous experiences.
We always do that. We constantly.
Do it. We and when we stopped doing it,
we evolved slower than to that learning that we want to do or
into that. Task that we want to do.
We move slower. But we if we can do it more
consciously and that's the box right there.
Categorisation. Yeah you.
Yeah, you're winning. Yeah, I can imagine.
But then the problem is, I feel like I've heard this before as
well. Of a friend.
Diana Monteleone. And she says, people are really
good at linear. Thinking like if it happens,
then be like those subsequent order of events, we're really
good at that. But then, when you're talking
about a system, any system even a distributed system it's harder
because if a happens and all of a sudden you get Z in your like
how the hell did we go from A to Z like because B is supposed to
be next. Yeah, and then that's where the
complexity kicks in our not really good at that yet, right,
right. Hey there.
Well, the complexity there are many definitions of the it's
funny. I just had a talk.
At a meetup group. And we I ask what is the
definition of complex system? Hmm, and nobody there to answer.
No, that's a hard one. Oh, it's beautiful.
And there is no universally accepted definition of what a
complex system is. Yeah.
Oh, it was a little bit of it. Also a cheeky question because,
yeah, you know, you know that there isn't but they, that's the
that that is the complex system there.
If you think about, okay, represent in 2D.
And is the simple in the simplest form.
As you can. A complex system, first thing
that 90% of people are going to do, they're going to do some
sort of web of points that connect to many other points.
Yes. And that is where what you just
said, right? I mean, you don't go from A to
B, you might go from a to TZ a e, and B is the last item, but
there isn't a last item because everything is connected.
That is complexity, that is how we don't think.
Yeah. But that is how we live, how we
exist, our brain works like that, right?
Exactly. So there's sometimes also, but
we build right. Not consciously about like, that
is the output sometimes of what we build, or like, a combination
of efforts. Right?
Can create that right? Kubernetes?
Yeah, yeah. Working, we working with that.
We, we hate ourselves. Much to build a complex system
to live in. So, is that what you think?
Like, a lot of people like you were nice.
Very powerful. I'm assuming, that's where the
power also come from comes from. But also where the complexity
comes from with people picking it up for the first time.
For example, it is a stiff curve.
And so your question is, I didn't fully get it.
No worries. Like the the point that it is
more so complex, right? Right.
If it's a graph or not, do you think that's why it's so
powerful as well? Because it is built a model like
that. No, I don't think that the power
cover of communities comes from his complexity, I think it comes
from years of Understanding how things should be done from from
a problem perspective, a challenge and a solution
perspective. Like, those feedback loops,
right? They come from more from
robotics than, then, then software, engineering, I think,
engineering. But the, some some problems are
solved in kubernetes with an approach, which is unique.
Week and then they bring in other other concept and all
these comes with together. They form these distributed in
complex system and the power of grenade is.
I think it because it's the is the sum of all these approaches
and this method to solve problems in an intelligent way.
The complexity, I think is a byproduct.
Yeah. Right.
So it's not necessarily the Design need.
Well, it's a design need, but the complexity is a byproduct of
that need. Exactly.
Yeah, I think that might be a fallacy that if you think that
something is complex. Therefore, it is powerful.
I feel like it's, it's more so that keeping things simple and
simplistic. That's where the power lies,
right. But you just add on top of that
and then the byproduct that you mentioned could be complexity,
true, true. I think, I think, I think is a
good way of seeing it. And a nevertheless is absolutely
true that the learning curve in kubernetes is quite steep.
Yeah, and there are things that run on top of kubernetes.
Oh yeah, she get. Which ever even a steeper
learning curve? So, absolutely.
Yeah. How was that for you, then
picking it up for the first time because you're not a software
engineer now? I background.
No, absolutely not. No.
Yeah, what'd you, what'd you do before?
I work before working on kubernetes and what?
I am now. I used to work at Hitachi
antara. Yeah, and I was especially were
specifically working on conversion a Converse systems,
like with VMware and Microsoft hyper-v.
Okay. And also, some sap Hana.
So, from there to kubernetes? Well, let's say that, I, if I
am, I still feel, I am leaving the Imposter syndrome and
everyone is feeling. Yeah, I love it.
I love it. And I'm freaked out.
Yeah, but it was steep. It was steeped.
I got Interested in kubernetes. Of course, like everybody else
is something absolutely cool. Any made a lot of sense?
Yeah, we need an orchestration for containers and what we had
with mesosphere wasn't really doing it, but it was, it was a
very hard-headed beginning was very hard.
I was trying to understand what the heck am I doing and and was
it You are aware you with the team knowing that up, picking it
up on my own time. Okay, I was just learning, it
was just learning it and then and then I said, well, you know,
this is what I want to do. So I applied for a few positions
and then eventually I got at Sue's out which adjusts it just
acquired Rancher. Yeah.
And I I didn't know that they were acquiring Rancher but also
I was my approaching kubernetes was through first vanilla, you
know, the Duuuuude way, like everybody else.
Yeah. And and then I started looking
into Rancher and a Rancher kubernetes engines, and I was
like, okay, that's cool. That's cool.
Let's keep going. And I got the job at Sousa and
then I think after a week or maybe or maybe, no, no.
Actually, while I was waiting for my first day, it was
announced that Souza quiet around here.
No, no, it's funny. Whoa yeah, exactly right spot.
It's funny how those kind of combinations of events sometimes
happen, right? Right.
You just sit in the middle and they're like, whoa.
I'm just, just gonna let that happen, interesting?
Yeah, but you didn't like, you didn't study any software
engineering related topics, not, not as as a major, not as a
requirement. Well it was more of a need.
I study Physics. Not completed.
Well, without dating myself. When I say when I I study
Physics in Italy, you needed. Five years to get any paper,
yeah, Worth showing but nowadays is three years than you do for
your Bachelor. Then, you know.
Yeah, the shortened it, right? They showed me that my three
years at which meant absolutely nothing.
No, I that's where I started my software engineering knee and
well software, engineering my programming.
I wouldn't call it software engineering.
Yeah. Was with Fortran.
Okay. So I then I did some see and
moved on just when I left the university, just moved on for
fun with some programming. Yeah, my Pearl.
My Pascal and, you know, don't let me mention about.
That's okay. Did your background?
In physics. Do you think it's still helping
you because I always wonder. Yeah, right, absolutely.
Like, in some weird way what we're doing now or the field
that you're in Technology field. I think you can always leverage
kind of their past experience. Yeah.
Absolutely. It's if if I would if I would
travel back in time yeah. And Choose something else.
It will be exactly the same thing.
That's also how its it is what I will.
Maybe the only thing that I would do is complete, come on,
that's not that bad. But no, I absolutely was.
It was the best, the best choice.
And I don't think I also today is affecting some decisions that
I take. Yeah, at least in my work.
Do you have an example of that? Like the knowledge of physics, I
was helping you now as well. Yeah, yes I do when I can be
varied to specific. Okay.
But let's look at what like for me.
In example the entropy and enthalpy like energy of a
system. Yeah.
You know the chaos were some people like to call chaos and it
it's always applicable to a complex or a coordinated.
Or a coordinated or semi coordinate system.
Yeah. And the more I love the more
problems you see. The more unclean is an outcome.
Yeah. Do you have an outcome, right?
You have an outcome and it's what you wanted.
The more it's actually a kind of a hard to explain how I see it.
Don't worry. But the, the more um, Clean that
outcome is even though it is what you want the most likely
that system that generated the outcome is not, all right, it's
not, it's not, it's not going to be a stable system in the
future. All a stable solution for the
future. So we should go back and redraw
and look further at what are the Improvement that can be made.
Yeah, so that is a little bit, my view my not my view, but My
my remembrance of my physics studies, right?
We just think when you look for a button energetic, balance of
an ecosystem over system. Yeah, I can imagine that.
That's helpful now because right sometimes the internals of a
system or what is actually happening happening can be right
due to time due to many hands having touched different things,
in different components, maybe some standardization hadn't
happened or some conventions weren't in place.
Yeah, or things just shifted and through learning you've
improved, right? It can be really hard figuring
out what the internals is. Yeah.
So then you're like, okay, this is the input and this is the
output, right? You kind of treat as a black
box. Yeah and then if you figure out
that your output is not necessarily what you wanted or
it's like deviating slightly, then something internally still
incorrect, right? Right incorrect.
Yeah. And you do see a shift in energy
as well? Yeah.
You know increase in energy this somehow the system is trying to
balance itself. Yeah.
Kind of very Spiritual way of saying it but the system is
trying to balance itself. So you see an increase in
energy. You see if you're looking at
logs you see way more luck than you should be, seeing a lot of
stuff going on. The system is in balanced.
So therefore there is some work that needs to be done.
Yeah, very interesting. Where did kind of this?
This love this passion for systems and even distributed
systems. Where did that originate from at
University? Yeah.
Yeah, it's well they we were working on a system or not.
Well, a very early system for HPC.
I Perkins Computing. It was a cluster 486 DX system.
Yeah. This is says nothing to me.
Sorry about that. That's age.
So they're worse. Depending, you know, the
Pentium? Yeah, yeah.
That's that's after. Okay.
Gotcha. So well.
Anyway, this this white box computer, right?
I mean, this 486 is just x86 system, okay?
And that 486, that's why, that's where x86 K take the names from,
okay. Just to let you know, maybe you
look it up, but that's we were putting them together to get.
So we were using a Beowulf type of architecture.
Yeah, to build a high-performance cluster so,
Basically, message passing interface processes, you know,
being shared across multiple CPUs.
And I found it very intriguing and interesting, and I kept
working on it with the others and I did develop some kernel
patches for for extending the memory use across gpus.
Yeah. So stacking, the memory,
literally the that was the The starting point of distributed
system. Then I left University.
I did a few other things in the meanwhile not very meaningful.
They're all meaningful. Yeah, someone you're right,
you're right there. And then I knew I was in trouble
and I was interested in the open mosaics project.
Okay, it was by Marcia bar. Yeah, he created this kernel
patch for learning Linux for a System image cluster.
So I worked on the Bill Wolfe clusters and that one was an
SSI. So the to explain as easy as
they can. They are application would see
the system as a multi CPU like landscape landscape operating
system, right? So, the, if the, if you had
threads, they would have migrated to other CPUs.
However, if you had processes, they would and Then a group, I
was working on the on, okay? Like that.
Now that I got something to do, I can do just for fun.
Yeah, well for fun for fun and to try out I can create the
memory stack sharing for the for SSI and there was a group of
ladies from India. Yeah.
Brilliant. Brilliant.
Group of girls, they created this patch for the memory
sharing and it was absolutely the next level I couldn't do
that and Yeah, then Marshall bar in moved to sin.
I think afterwards and the project get stopped.
No, I think, there were no maintainers, yeah.
Left for it and I didn't have I didn't have it to tell you
myself. So I said, well I was a
spectator of just gonna, you know.
Yeah, just I'm not going interested anymore.
I always interested but I'm not interested in maintaining so I'm
not proposing myself for it, but yeah, that's a humongous.
A long fast nowadays. I feel it is yeah.
I respect for any mantegna's out there.
Yeah yeah. Sure.
Like it's it's so interesting to me that open source is a lot of
software. Fundamentally is built upon
right right. But that also has a maintenance
component to it can be a team can also sometimes be one person
just ridiculous right? Sometimes this thing that you
build can have an Outreach that you wouldn't imagine and then
you have tens of thousands of people thousands maybe 100,000
people telling you what they Think of this thing that you
built, right? No, no, you should go right or
left or straight and it's all it's all different.
Anyways, result, trade-offs, that's what software is.
It is it is and and I find very concerning that there are so
many trainers that are doing as you say, humongous job beside
their daily job. Yeah.
And there is no actual support, meaning, you know, funding or
some, you know, some, I don't know.
No. On GitHub some donations that
you can do, there are many that receive any donation and they
struggled to keep the lights on on their project and at home
because yeah, many have a second Evan actually daily daily job
but yeah many others that is their source of income which is
their productivity and their open source efforts.
Yeah. Yeah.
For those people that have two jobs like the open sources.
I see that as a joke, As well, and like I said, a day for
income, right? They probably have built this
thing and there's a, such a huge sunken cost in general that they
don't want to let go, right? Even if they wish they would
like, oh, they can't do that to themselves or to a community
because now, you kind of responsible to the people that
are using it as well which is very very weird dichotomy that.
I don't think you have in any other field where something is
open. People can use it then you are
responsible. If you let go of that you either
disappoint people or things just break.
Yeah. It's also an option.
Yeah, I think. It is, I think is a construct
only of Open Source. Yeah, it's which is, which is
hard, Alex, L is as well. A red few few notes of him, few
points where he says, how hard it is to come to work on these
things without without support. We should always think there's
like, we get, I think we can spec.
We can spare that pizza margherita pizza money for, you
know, for a good project. Exactly.
It's not going to change our life.
We do. When we don't but you can't
change the life of somebody else exactly that.
That is the power of kind of collectiveness in that exact,
right? Yeah.
If that collectiveness then supports one entity then also
on, that's a huge difference. Yes.
Absolutely. And I don't see right now, I
don't see that changing. It's the power of Open Source.
Everyone can use it. You can build something out of
some people. Love it.
They use it needs to be somewhat established, but still take some
time. It does it has.
But you also have to, you have to look at where we're coming
from. In open stores, where we were 30
years ago where we were 20 years ago, but we are ten years ago
where we are now, right? I mean, before he was absolutely
that gig in that, in that dark corner building, something
pushing it on internet somewhere.
Yeah. With a modem and and you hope
you get some interest and that's it.
Yeah, but you don't hope. Get money.
You're hoping to get interest. Yeah.
And then now there are people building something which is
massive. They put it out there looking
for interest and hoping also to build a business around it.
Yeah. So you think about the the
product and you've been, did you think about the business model
around it? Whereas before you think about
that cool thing and solutions like you know, let me see if
somebody else wants to once. To play with it as well.
So that's that's how it was. Yeah that that business model
open cores. What I've been told that to me
is fascinating, right? And I can come from both ways
that you already have kind of an open source tool and you make it
easier for people to use it, make it easier to integrate an
organization, you take away some of the operational maintenance,
part of it, you can run it basically for someone else to
use it, right. I think that's very interesting
or the other way around where you internal, you build a
product and then you open source.
Out of that product that you've already built, right?
They I also find it fascinating. I also find it quite dangerous.
Hmm. The you know those pay walls yet
sometimes company build and it's it's kind of using the
open-source Community sometimes and it which is not bad but you
my abuse of the concept. So like yeah, I am releasing
these. Of code.
I'm releasing this product, but to take it to, the Enterprise
level, to take it to actually use it in your company, securely
and safely. You got a need to pay and for
some startups know, that's, that's a no-go.
Yeah. It's like it's what they can do.
So, I duel instead like the SAS model where you really see the
whole thing. Yeah, you know, use it on Prem
on cloud, however, you want it. But if you want, if you are a
start-up, you can also think about using SAS version and, you
know, you build your, you build your, you build your product
around hours. Yeah.
Fine. And then you can also use the
SAS version because you can't, you don't have money to build
rack and rack of servers and yeah, you know so I prefer that
model instead of the pay wall of the Enterprise features.
Yeah to me I don't see the pay wall initiative having much
longevity anymore. Like that feels kind of dated.
It right? Because if I like engineering
has a lot of decision-making power more so nowadays than how
it used to be right. Yeah.
In a team you can already decide kind of especially if you're in
a start-up. What you're going to do?
What tools you're going to leverage and exactly, as you
mentioned, if our focus is this product, then I don't want to
maintain some server with some piece of software just because
it's free, right? If you can afford it, you get it
as a sauce variant. Yeah.
And then you use it and you still focus on what you need to
focus on exactly. I think because the pay wall
like These are hurdle for people to adopt, or to even figure
things out. I feel like that doesn't have
longevity. It doesn't, it doesn't a great
example is backstage, right? I mean, next stage is a
fantastic product is needed. We need to enable developers to,
to get detached from the platform that they are rather.
They are deploying to. Yeah, and backstage makes a lot
of sense and things like backstage.
Make a lot of sense, but when you start, it's donated, I I
hate the word donated but it's handed over to the CN CF.
Yeah, but if you really want to use it in an organization,
you're going to need our buck and our buck you, you you've got
to pay, you gotta pay for to have it and you're going to pay
for that plug-in and I find it I find it a model which does not
have. That's not it.
Take into account this those little companies that are trying
to make it, Yeah, that's hard. Which are a lot.
And that's a lot of business, to be honest.
Yeah, so that's hard. I think it has a lot to do with
trust as well. Like there's this thing called
trust equation and I don't recall it correctly to kind of
Define what it means. Now maybe from some people look
it up but in any case like the way you act or your honesty and
your integrity that all shines through right signs through and
what you do as a person shines through in what you stand for as
a company as well. I believe it and things like
that, will diminish from that. Trust equation.
And some people will still accept that that level of trust
that they have and some people want and they won't use those
Services anymore. Yep.
Now, absolutely. I think that holds true for
people as well as organizations, which is interesting because
then the organization is kind of an artifact of how you operate
as a person as well. Yes.
Or like as a collective. Yes, whatever.
Whenever you build its, whatever you are, right?
That that is That is sometimes true.
We're not going to mention companies, of course.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. But when you when you kind of
came into this field, would you imagine being so involved in
either communities or with people in so far?
Or did you have kind of a different perspective?
Because I always think for me, I thought, okay I'm gonna be
software engineer or I'm going to work with software, it's
going to be more. So isolated, I'm going to create
this piece of artifact, kind of reflecting sometimes how I think
and stuff and that's then going to combine into this puzzle
piece that is going to be Picture of reality or the
picture of the thing we're building.
And I'm going to do that with other people.
But I'm still going to be responsible for like my little
puzzle pieces, which holds true in some aspects, but completely
not in other aspects either through.
No, I did. Imagine I, when I, when I
started with it, of course, like everybody else.
I think it's your thing. Yes, it's your time you're
interested. You go through with your what,
you're learning, what you're doing.
When I moved into when I started getting more and more interested
into open source, which of course that they will Linux.
I'm not going to tell you the kernel version because
otherwise, you, I'm reading the it was you're in your room,
right? Yeah.
It like you like, okay, this is, this is cool.
This is how it works and you go with Linux from scratch and you
start compiling your own kernel. And all of a sudden you feel you
feel Untouchable. Yeah but you use you you get out
and nobody absolutely care any but you're not either.
Yeah, but you are absolutely off.
You know the clouds you get that to today is exactly the opposite
is everybody's interested. In what you're doing, everybody
know as a sort of not knowledge but awareness of these open
source movement of This community of this being part of
something. There are so many conferences,
like, take Cube Khan, take Q, Khan take so many devops days.
So many conferences going on and you see like-minded people that
are not those Geeks sitting in a room in the dark room and doing
their own thing that nobody understands.
But it's more of a very open. Very social animals.
Yeah. Sudden we are all realize that
we are not that A social person but we are very social.
We want to show we want to tell we want to hear and I find it.
Fantastic. It's I'm busy with the
community. I'm trying to build something.
I'm trying to be part of it and I couldn't imagine not being
anymore. So it's it is, it is amazing.
Yeah, I'm really happy that there are those spaces where
people with that are like-minded and have a shared passion, Can
come together, right? Right.
Is that, that is usually the only part of the equation you
need for knowledge, sharing to happen.
People that come to those events.
Have a genuine sense of curiosity.
So you're really interesting discussions and that's the real
Community aspect of things. It is, it is so different from
how it used to be. It is before they get together
plays was an IRC Channel. Yeah.
So you know and it had you begin building, your own image of how
somebody is and Not necessarily of a person image you know you
give a shit a mental shape to that to that nom de plume or
acronym or whatever. You want to call it.
Yeah nickname. Yeah.
But it's but it's it and you build a friendship and you build
yet. Yeah.
You build this this way of Munich ating with that person.
And that is this. You do exactly the same things
in real life, right? Yeah.
But nowadays, you do it really real life.
Now, you have a place to meet. Yeah, we have Dev rails, the
meat constantly somewhere in the world, a conferences and they
get in touch. As like, are you going to that
conference? I'm going to that one.
And it's, it's beautiful.
Its it wasn't like that. It wasn't like that.
No, and I think it's I love it. The only thing is Really bad at
kind of that art of upholding connections and like maintaining
a network. Like I talk to a lot of people
just by virtue of doing the podcast.
I got you on because part 4 L said Williams awesome.
Dr. William by is awesome. Yeah, but but reached out to me
and I feel like I'm really bad at kind of maintaining
connections were Network, are you like that as well?
Or do you kind of have your stride in that?
I, I am not good at it and I don't know if I'm bad but I'm
not. Good at it.
I see some people like Bart, an example like Alessandro, whatsa
or Andrea Jordi. Need people that I, that I am
lately constantly texting with and organizing something, and I
see that they have a method in it.
They have their own way of doing and they're good at it.
You can tell they're good. Yeah, me, I'm not bad, I'm not
an obstacle to that, which is a good thing.
So good. I-i'm not as invested as they
are. Yeah, I could be more.
But my job is is also I'm making an excuse now.
And my job is also preventing me from being more invested than I
am. Yeah.
So, I'm not not a devrel which I need to keep those
Communications going. I'm not a content creator.
I'm so, I'm a consultant. Yeah, so I need to make those As
billable hours, I can vary the same excuse.
This. That's very funny.
Good. It's like I want to but maybe
maybe there's like the scent of is not there.
I don't know why. It's just, yeah, it's time and
effort. Yeah, it is time and effort, and
he's also what you like, right? I mean, I do love the social
part. I love it, me too.
And I couldn't be without it, but sometimes I love more.
The technical part pulls you back.
Yeah, I push me back. His this is who you are just do
your thing. That's also fine.
Yeah, so it's get back to that, get back to the keyboard and,
and, and it's fine. It's why I, it is why I am in
the in this community in this indeed today.
Now it is because I love the technical part.
Yeah, it is because I want to get out and say, hey, check out
what I just did, or check out what I just learned or check out
what that guy does. And Yeah, that maybe that's why
I'm not good at giving context because I still want to keep my,
you know, maybe that guy that in the, in the darkroom coding or
you're compiling side, you still there.
That's okay. You still cleaning space.
I like that a lot, because it's a spectrum, right?
And you kind of fit somewhere on that spectrum and I don't think
there's a right or wrong. There's no golden ticket.
There's no out. This is what you're supposed to
be. You're just there and you're
like, ah, my little bit. I left them a little bit more,
right doesn't really matter now he does.
Right. Absolutely.
And you find your stride and whatever you do and you enjoy
the sides as well which is completely fine.
Yes. Yes, absolutely.
Really cool. Absolutely agreeing with this
cool man. I've really enjoyed this talk so
far likewise it was a lot of fun having you on.
Is there still anything you want to share with regards to our
audience? Just well, no, I like, I like
our audience. I don't know, I don't know.
I Love to say, just who kept with me, just just try to find
me. Let's have a chat or whatever
but that's that's not what I'm going to say though.
I just said it, I'll say that for you, don't worry about that.
I think I should prepare people more because I always throw this
curveball at the end. Yeah, sometimes I don't prepare
people for nothing, you know, just cut this piece and just
tell, there's no there's no cutting.
No, this is gonna make it Just ask them that the end the
question you know, to come up with.
That's also good. Some people take and roll with
it and some people are like, no I really liked it.
Yeah, let's see it. Lets see it, it's fine.
It's tough, but I'm going to round it off here everyone.
Thank you so much for listening. Check out William.
It eats ice that makes these. So everybody, so I'm gonna put
all his socials in the description below.
Check them out. Let them know you came from our
show. And with that being said, thank
you for listening again. We'll see you in the next one.