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Hi everyone. 
My name is Patrick Akil and 

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joining me today is Dario 
Quiselar, Principal Software 

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Engineer over at Elastic. 
And we talk about career 

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progression in big tech 
organizations as software 

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engineer, how to raise the bar, 
be critical with regards to 

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feedback and how to deliver as 
high performer. 

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So enjoy. 
There's 2, two moments during 

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the year where there's a 
possibility of a promotion. 

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So it's for the entire company. 
So every six months, we get what

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we call merit increase, so base 
salary. 

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And then in November, I think we
get our Rs US. 

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So stock options or whatever you
want to call them. 

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And that is also the point of 
time where people can get 

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promoted. 
And I had no idea how promotion 

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goes. 
Like I've never spoken to my 

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manager about promotion at that 
point. 

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What it did know is that every 
six months, emails go out to the

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entire company announcing the 
promotion. 

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Oh, OK. 
It's like a celebratory thing. 

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Yes, it is a celebratory thing, 
but it has a flip side, right? 

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If you feel like you deserve a 
promotion and you don't get the 

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promotion, can you see the 
promotion emails go out? 

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It stinks. 
So I didn't know at that point 

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that your manager is supposed to
have a conversation with you the

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week before and tell you this is
what you're getting. 

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You're not getting promoted. 
Or not. 

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Yeah, because I I didn't ask. 
I also didn't know that I should

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ask about my promotion. 
So I was kind of anticipating 

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the e-mail to go out and maybe 
it would have my name in it. 

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And then the e-mail came out and
didn't have my name on it. 

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And I remember being so 
frustrated. 

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I remember being so frustrated. 
I felt I deserved it. 

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And I felt like there were other
people in the e-mail, like all 

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like the toxic bullshit that 
comes with promotion culture. 

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I felt it. 
I spent two days being upset 

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about it. 
And then I was like, I pinged my

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manager. 
I was like, hey, sorry, I'm 

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upset. 
Doesn't make any sense. 

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Ridiculous. 
I love what I'm doing. 

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I'll get over it. 
And like we had a good chat and 

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six months later I did get 
promoted. 

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Good for you. 
Good for me. 

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And I mean like at that point 
again, right at that point 

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again, I was like, Oh my God, 
I'm a principal engineer. 

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Elastic does it. 
But then again, like the same 

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thing happens. 
You start to get used to the way

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people look at you, what their 
expectations are of you, 

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etcetera. 
And at some point, you start to 

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feel like, hey, maybe it's just 
not like the ankle. 

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From comfort. 
Yeah. 

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So I think to put things in 
perspective like elastic, 

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elastic, the title Principal 
Engineer one is it's attainable.

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So I think about 20 to 25% of 
engineers are Principal Engineer

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one and then you have Principal 
Engineer 2. 

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So that's about let's say 2 to 
5% something like that and then 

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you have distinguished and 
that's. 

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Yeah, legendary. 
Yeah, it's like 5 people in the 

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company. 
Yeah, L6 to L7, So senior to 

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principal is it's doable and 
you, you can tell like people 

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expect that to to get promoted. 
Yeah, but they don't have to add

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like actively advocate for 
themselves. 

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So that is the thing. 
That is the thing. 

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So yes, they should advocate for
themselves and not everybody's 

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doing that. 
But you really need to like the 

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classic game that you play is 
you ask your manager, what do I 

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need to do to get promoted? 
And your manager will give you a

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list of things that you need to 
take off. 

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And if you do those things, then
it's going to be really hard for

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your manager to not promote you.
So to some extent people, some 

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people, I figured out that game,
right? 

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So they just ask their manager, 
what do I need to get promoted? 

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And I think we do try to stay 
away from checkbox based 

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promotions. 
But if your manager is not being

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upfront with you and they give 
you a list of things that they 

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just give to you because they 
felt like they needed to give 

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you an answer, it does create an
expectation with the employee 

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that they're getting promoted if
they do those things. 

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And I think that is that is the 
worst possible outcome, but it 

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is what it is. 
And then I mean, I do always say

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to folks like you need to make 
very clear with your manager 

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that you want to get promoted 
and they need to tell you what 

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you need to do to get promoted. 
And then it's an easy discussion

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for you to have. 
And I think that works. 

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And it doesn't really. 
At some point, it doesn't really

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matter anymore if you're doing 
your job well, if you're making 

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an impact or whatever. 
If you have an agreement with 

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your manager, it's going to be 
really hard for your manager to 

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say no. 
Yeah, it feels like a lot of 

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this is just setting 
expectations. 

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And I don't know if it's 
Netherlands specifically, that's

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always the environment I've 
worked in. 

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But salary and like those 
conversations are like very 

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crucial with regards to 
motivation and even energy, how 

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much you put into a job and how 
much you get out of it. 

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Like I joined the CBO six years 
ago and six years ago I was very

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early in career. 
So I also got an offer which was

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likely very early in career. 
Like, it was no problem here we 

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have like these yearly ski 
vacations or like summer 

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vacations. 
And if you earn below a certain 

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threshold, you get a discount. 
And I got the discount. 

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But the way this came out and I 
never thought about my salary, I

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was really happy. 
If you're really happy, I don't 

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think you think about like, 
promotion or job, but like, 

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something has to, at least for 
me, something had to trigger me.

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And so my colleagues were like, 
yeah, yeah, discount. 

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Like, it's really nice, but it's
not relevant for us. 

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I was like, what do you mean? 
I was like, it's definitely 

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relevant. 
And then that's how the 

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conversation started. 
And like those conversations 

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happen, at least in this 
environment yearly. 

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And it has always been a matter 
of managing expectations, what 

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am I doing or whatever I 
achieved. 

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And then having a conversation 
with your manager. 

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And to a point, I also bumped 
heads with my previous manager 

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and he did, he gave me the whole
checklist thing. 

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And then I looked at the chest 
list and the checklist was like 

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so generic. 
That was like, listen, I had the

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conversation with him. 
I said I could bump this out in 

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two months. 
Give me two months and I'll have

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the checklist. 
But I say, I don't think you 

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want to work with this. 
I don't think I want to work 

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with this. 
Like I want to work in an 

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environment where we have shared
understanding and blah, blah. 

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And in the end, because we 
didn't see, I tell you, I had to

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escalate. 
I had to go above his head. 

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And he was not happy with that. 
But that was the only way for me

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to feel vindicated. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
I also like, before doing that, 

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I really had thought I fought 
hard and just hit a wall. 

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And for me, hitting a wall meant
either I accept which I had a 

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really hard time at the time. 
It's very early in career. 

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I'm also very idealistic with 
regards to growth or I had to 

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leave because I'm not going to 
accept, which means I still need

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to sit in this, which means 
there's no place for me here. 

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Colleague gave me another 
option. 

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He said, OK, go to the CEO at 
the time, managing director. 

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I was like, OK, we don't have 
many levels, so it's my manager 

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and then CEO basically. 
And I was like, yeah, it took a 

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bit of convincing. 
I was like, this seems like a 

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petty thing to go and have a 
conversation with. 

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He's like, yeah. 
But like, it's either this we 

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could leave. 
Like, that's how he read the 

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situation. 
And he was completely right. 

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So I had to go through all of 
these kind of hoops to at least 

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few more valued. 
In the end, it might not even 

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have been about the money. 
It might have been about the 

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whole situation, about the 
conversation, about this feeling

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of being valued. 
And in the end, I felt like I 

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deserved that. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
And in the end, I also got that 

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forcefully, which was not a nice
thing. 

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And there's a reason why that 
manager's not my manager 

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anymore. 
I think so. 

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I don't think it's about it. 
It's, it was never about money 

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for me getting promoted. 
It was purely about the 

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recognition that you feel like 
you're doing well and you want 

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to be recognized for doing well.
And money money is a way for a 

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company to show you that you're 
valued in a for me, a title is 

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a, an even more visible way of 
the company telling you, hey, 

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you're doing really good. 
So elastic job titles are not 

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job roles. 
So I've up until six months ago,

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I was never a tech lead. 
So I was, I was just an engineer

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on a team and I got promoted 
from senior to principal in that

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way and I got promoted from 
principal 1 to principal 2 that 

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way. 
I will say like my conversations

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were never checklist based, but 
I did, I did make it very clear 

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when I got promoted that I felt 
like I deserved to get promoted 

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without threatening. 
Yeah. 

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Like substantiating also. 
Yeah. 

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So like, yeah, basically my 
manager, my manager at that time

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didn't have enough time to 
prepare my promotion calibration

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or whatever. 
So I escalated to RVP and then 

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my VP worked with me to, to get 
my name on the on the table. 

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And then L7 to L8, there's a, 
there's a committee that decides

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whether you get promoted or not.
And I, I, I mean, I don't know 

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what happens inside of the 
committee or whatever, but my, 

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my VP really helped me out there
to get me promoted. 

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But the money, I don't, I don't 
care about the money anymore. 

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I mean, I make enough money. 
Money is only a factor for me if

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it's the only way for me to get 
the feeling that I'm being 

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valued. 
So honestly, like I don't 

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negotiate my salary at all. 
I just accept my fate and like 

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that's all I need. 
I just want to have the feeling 

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that I'm useful. 
That's it basically. 

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It's as simple as that. 
It's weird that some companies 

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have this conversation which is 
about you feeling useful and you

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feeling valued. 
And it only happens once a year.

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And even when it happens twice a
year, it's like such a build up.

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You know, the first three 
months, no one's going to 

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remember what you did, which 
means the last three months 

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everyone like everything is like
on, on thing. 

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And you remember your whole 
journey. 

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And if your manager has many 
people, then it's very hard to 

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do that conversation and like do
justice to it. 

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And there's varying levels of 
ambition and like ideation. 

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It's, it's, I think it's 
incredibly challenging. 

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Something as simple as and I'm, 
I'm horrible at giving positive 

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feedback when someone asks for 
feedback. 

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When I get a feedback form from 
people in my team, everything 

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that pops up is like critical 
feedback. 

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It's like, these are the things 
that, but like I've learned this

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is also something I'm trying to 
work with or trying to work at 

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at least for myself, that when 
something happens that I 

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appreciate that I pause and that
in that moment that I give the 

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feedback, the positive feedback.
And I have seen that do wonders.

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And it makes me feel like less 
of an asshole when I am the like

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critical person dotting the eyes
with the feedback form. 

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But before that, like I could 
just not think of a lot of 

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positive things to say if there 
were things to work on. 

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And now that's what maybe it's 
my the way I was raised. 

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Maybe it's the mindset that I 
have this way of giving positive

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feedback when it happens, when 
something did a really good job,

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when someone was absent, when 
someone just gave really good 

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feedback or had a great idea. 
I try and say that in the moment

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nowadays. 
Yeah, it takes those wonders. 

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So this is this is one of the 
biggest struggles for me 

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personally because I'm exactly 
the same. 

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I don't know why, but it's it's 
never good enough for me 

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basically. 
And I forget that. 

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I forget that for the person 
doing the job or whatever, it 

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was the best that they could 
have done and it did a pretty 

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good job given their perspective
or whatever. 

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It's really hard for me to also 
in that moment that you think, 

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oh, somebody's doing like a 
really good job, then tell them.

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And I think it, it, it's 
probably the one thing that I 

226
00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:01,240
would like to change about 
myself to also highlight the, 

227
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,720
the positive aspects of whatever
is happening. 

228
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,160
I am, I am somebody who 
complaints and it it creates a 

229
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,200
relationship with people that 
they think that you're just a 

230
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,160
negative person, right? 
Yeah. 

231
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:15,960
You don't have. 
To I have that, yeah. 

232
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,600
No, I really recognise that, 
yeah. 

233
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,040
It and I talked to colleagues 
and some people get pissed off 

234
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,840
for me because this labelling of
negativity, that is one thing, 

235
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,920
but I do think there needs to be
room for critical feedback. 

236
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:30,440
Oh, 100. 
Percent like that's the thing. 

237
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,360
But if critical feedback gets 
labeled as negativity and 

238
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,000
there's communication of we 
cannot have negativity even 

239
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,800
though it's like critical 
feedback, like it's actually 

240
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,440
very much here's the facts and 
this is like the opinion and 

241
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,480
these are the effects. 
Even though you might not want 

242
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:49,240
to hear it, it remains a fact. 
Then at some point I've also had

243
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,320
the feeling of, OK, if I keep 
being labeled as negative, 

244
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,560
should we say something or then 
I start second guessing myself 

245
00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:58,480
and should I actually speak up 
now even though I don't agree or

246
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,520
I'm going to be construed as 
negative and I've caught myself 

247
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,600
and be like, well, I don't want 
to be someone that like doesn't 

248
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,440
say what they're thinking even 
though they think it's 

249
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,840
important. 
And like so I've tried to kind 

250
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,160
of grow over that, but it's 
definitely an ongoing topic. 

251
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:15,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
I, I mean, I think in the last 

252
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:16,320
thing we have a huge problem, 
right? 

253
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,480
We're not direct enough. 
And I'm, I'm totally on the 

254
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,760
opposite side of the spectrum. 
And I would say I'm, I'm, I'm 

255
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:26,480
too far like I need, I need to 
you're. 

256
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,040
Too direct I'm. 
I'm too. 

257
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,880
Direct. 
I'm too direct, but to some 

258
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:39,320
extent it's also a reaction to 
being in a culture where 

259
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:48,760
critical feedback is not the 
norm and you start seeing 

260
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,640
situations where people are not 
being honest. 

261
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:58,040
So recently a couple, a couple 
of weeks back, we, I was looking

262
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:04,280
at a, an RC that somebody put up
and it was literally 6065 pages 

263
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,880
for a really small security 
feature. 

264
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:15,040
And it, I mean, it doesn't like,
it's not OK. 

265
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:21,480
It's like it's not OK to ask 
4050 people to read a 65 page 

266
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,280
RFC, which could have been A1 
pager. 

267
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,640
It's just not OK. 
But people see somebody's 

268
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:32,840
putting the effort to write a 65
page RFC and they shy away from 

269
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,600
telling that person don't write 
a 65 page RC. 

270
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,760
And in the end, I think that 
hurts everybody because a lot of

271
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,240
people read that document and 
that RC is not going anywhere, 

272
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,000
right? 
I mean they they killed that RC 

273
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,200
or. 
Sandbag it or like postponed and

274
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,600
like in the end it's not going. 
To go anywhere and everybody's 

275
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,840
waste of time. 
The person who wrote it is 

276
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:58,880
frustrated and I just feel like 
that is that is the consequence 

277
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:06,160
of a culture where people are 
not upfront with what they how 

278
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,320
they feel about how somebody 
approaches things. 

279
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:16,920
Like we, we try to try to tiptoe
around the issue and be very 

280
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,240
indirect in how we give 
feedback. 

281
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,840
And this is also America, right?
Like I have a lot of US based 

282
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:27,920
colleagues. 
I remember I have AI had AUS, I 

283
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,720
had a manager from the US in the
beginning. 

284
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,920
And I think for American 
standards, he was already pretty

285
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:39,920
direct, but I remember being 
always aware of the fact that if

286
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,840
he gives any kind of indication 
that maybe I should have done 

287
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,800
something slightly differently, 
I know that that's the only 

288
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,440
thing that I should focus on. 
So there's 50 things that are 

289
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,240
that is telling me that I'm 
doing good. 

290
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,920
And there's one thing that he's 
like, I'm not sure if he should 

291
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:57,840
have. 
So like anytime, and I still 

292
00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,520
talk to him every week, anytime 
he says something to me and he 

293
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:07,880
says something that is can be 
somewhat interpreted as critical

294
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,880
feedback. 
I like, I, I lock in because 

295
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:19,240
people in the US are much less 
direct than US Dutch folks. 

296
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,440
And for instance, our founder is
from Israel. 

297
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,319
So there's a lot of folks from 
Israel in the, in the company as

298
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,280
well. 
They're way more direct than 

299
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,120
even Dutch people, and that 
makes it really easy for me to 

300
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:38,320
work with them because I know 
what they're telling me. 

301
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:44,040
And I just think that leads to 
more efficient decision making. 

302
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,040
I if I talk to somebody and they
don't disagree, I want them to 

303
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,480
tell me that they disagree and I
want them to tell me that I'm 

304
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,520
wrong. 
And what I see happening too 

305
00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:02,120
many times is that people are 
not clear in their feedback and 

306
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:05,360
people go off into another 
direction because they don't 

307
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:08,000
agree, but they also don't tell 
you that they don't agree. 

308
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,320
And that just leads to waste at 
work. 

309
00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:14,120
And I think waste at work is the
worst thing that can happen. 

310
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:17,400
Like if a team works on 
something for 12 to 18 months 

311
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:24,280
and it gets like what sometimes 
happens is a team goes off, 

312
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,960
product manager goes off, does a
certain thing, it goes gets back

313
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,680
to the C level executives and it
gets killed. 

314
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,080
Like I've been in those 
meetings, they see it. 

315
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,520
They basically tell you, I don't
know why you're doing this. 

316
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,400
You can stop doing this. 
You can try to figure something 

317
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,240
else out. 
That team of five to 10 people 

318
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,400
or whatever, they spent 12 to 18
months working on something that

319
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:50,560
gets it just gets shut down in 
the blink of an eye. 

320
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,280
And that misalignment, I think 
that to some extent is a product

321
00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,040
of people not being honest about
where they agree or where they 

322
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,200
disagree. 
Yeah, I, I completely agree with

323
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,280
you. 
It's just, I really don't know 

324
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,480
how to solve that. 
Like in Dutch culture, I don't 

325
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,560
know what it is, but when in 
upbringing, when you hear 

326
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,800
feedback like that's just, it's 
just objective. 

327
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,800
It's not you as a person. 
The feedback is something 

328
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,680
separate and it doesn't really 
impact you. 

329
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,120
It's just something that 
happened and it's not about you 

330
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:22,920
as a person. 
It's about your behaviour and 

331
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,960
something that you can change, 
you can influence. 

332
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,440
And I feel like in other 
cultures, that is not the case 

333
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,200
by default. 
It's something personal or it's 

334
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,400
something that is kind of taboo 
to say about someone. 

335
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,560
Even though it's their behavior 
and they can act accordingly or 

336
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,360
they can grow because of that 
feedback, it's not really there.

337
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,280
You have to have this, like, 
base level of trust. 

338
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,640
And you, you do that with 
family, but not with friends and

339
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,920
especially not with colleagues, 
weirdly enough. 

340
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,240
But I do think that maybe when I
hear myself speak like that, 

341
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,160
it's like, yeah, maybe you need 
to build a relationship before 

342
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:54,600
that level of trust can be 
there. 

343
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,200
That's also true by the SEC. 
It's really hard to build that 

344
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,320
remotely with everybody so 
remotely like this is one of the

345
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,120
things I think that we see each 
other once a year, I would say. 

346
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,040
And I remember, so in my first 
year, I went to Orlando the 

347
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,840
second week, I went to San 
Francisco 2 weeks later for the 

348
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,760
like the onboarding week. 
And then I went to to one O 6 

349
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,400
months later and then it was 
COVID. 

350
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,560
And then didn't see anybody for 
three years. 

351
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:24,520
Yeah. 
Wow. 

352
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:31,360
And I remember, I remember 
feeling so much more empathy for

353
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:35,520
people that I've seen in real 
life than people that I've never

354
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,360
seen. 
And it just, it completely 

355
00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:42,600
changed us. 
The way that I work with people,

356
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,520
if I've seen them face to face, 
I've gotten to know them a 

357
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,680
little bit. 
It just completely changes how I

358
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,360
work with them. 
And in a company that's fully 

359
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:57,640
remote, it's just really hard to
to do that right. 

360
00:20:58,120 --> 00:20:59,520
It's really hard to build that 
relationship. 

361
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,240
Yeah, you have to have those 
touch points in person. 

362
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,520
That's the only way I think I 
haven't seen any. 

363
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,560
Or you like what I used to do 
because I was responsible for 

364
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,360
product, but there was no Scrum 
master. 

365
00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:11,240
So I also did like the the 
Sprint rituals and all that. 

366
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,680
I took every beginning of every 
retrospective and we had them bi

367
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:21,000
weekly to do an ice breaker and 
those Ice Breakers were usually 

368
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,480
to break the ice. 
But then I learned that some of 

369
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,840
the questions I could do could 
be a little bit more personal. 

370
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,120
Talk to me about your favorite 
vacation destination. 

371
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:29,560
Talk to me about your favorite 
food. 

372
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,520
We had really funny questions 
like in what fictional universe 

373
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,880
would you want to live and why? 
So I learned about people's 

374
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,960
like, do they like fantasy? 
Do they like action? 

375
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,320
They like anime, like cartoon, 
stuff like that, and sometimes 

376
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,120
it's spiraled a bit too long out
of control. 

377
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:45,720
We spent too much time with the 
icebreaker. 

378
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,280
I don't really mind because even
though there was a big slice in 

379
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,240
person, there were people in 
Romania, there were people in 

380
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:56,480
Poland, and this was the only 
moment we had in our work to 

381
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,200
learn about each other on a more
group level. 

382
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,320
People started becoming 
comfortable, people started 

383
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,680
trusting each other more, 
reaching out for help. 

384
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,600
And I attribute a lot of that to
the time that we spent as a team

385
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,320
discussing honesty, a lot of 
personal things. 

386
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,120
And that for me together with 
them meeting each other in 

387
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:18,040
person, created a really strong 
team, made it incredibly fun to 

388
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,200
work in a team like that where I
could see people disagree and 

389
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,960
then still commit to delivering 
and delivering over and over 

390
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,920
again. 
It's just really fun to be part 

391
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,840
of. 
And that's the time you spent in

392
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,520
building a team, which you don't
really see. 

393
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:33,760
And then the sad part is if you 
then kind of tear that team 

394
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,040
apart because the reshuffling 
happens or reorg happens, like 

395
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,720
all organizational stuff where 
it takes a long time to form a 

396
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,800
team and it takes seconds to 
destroy one. 

397
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,600
Yeah, that's true. 
I think at my at my last job, 

398
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:54,600
like we had maybe two or three 
reshuffles in the time and it 

399
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,440
was so disruptive. 
It was so disruptive. 

400
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,560
People are so peculiar in the 
way that they work. 

401
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,760
Like every engineer has their 
own sense of how to write code 

402
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:12,400
and teams establish a culture, 
standards, whatever that are 

403
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,680
very local. 
And as soon as you start mixing 

404
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,640
it up, there's so much friction 
in people having to adjust the 

405
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,680
way that they work, how to 
communicate what their process 

406
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,040
is like. 
And lastly, we don't really have

407
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:31,680
it's, I think it's changing, but
we like, we were basically 

408
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,840
doing, I wouldn't even call it 
Gumbon. 

409
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,240
It's just like gung ho. 
It's like, OK, like there's a 

410
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,480
thing that we need to do over 
the next six months or whatever.

411
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,360
We'll just do it. 
Like maybe there's an issue. 

412
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,480
Quite often there's there's no 
issue. 

413
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,600
That is, I mean, that that other
teams have a different way of 

414
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,440
working, right. 
So maybe they're not doing 

415
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,160
combat, maybe they're doing 
sprints, maybe they have like 

416
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,440
monthly retrospectives. 
Maybe they don't. 

417
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,160
And because it's so free for 
all, any time there's a change, 

418
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:13,280
it has such a dramatic effect. 
We had a reorg, I think it was 

419
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,400
maybe 18 months ago, we had a 
big reorg. 

420
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,120
So one of the problems that we 
weren't running into was that we

421
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:23,440
had a siloed product. 
So you could tell this feature 

422
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,080
is made by this team and that 
feature is made by that team and

423
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,520
they're basically doing things 
in different ways, etcetera. 

424
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,880
So we tried to reshuffle it a 
bit to get rid of those silos 

425
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:40,640
and it made a lot of things so 
ineffective. 

426
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,680
Like I, I think we still haven't
fully resolved that issue. 

427
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,680
It's been really hard for teams 
to find their footing in the new

428
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,280
setup. 
And it's, I mean, teams just 

429
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,720
work on products that projects 
that don't really materialize. 

430
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,160
And before that, when we had the
silos, I, I know silos were bad,

431
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,720
like silos were bad for the end 
user, but silos are really good 

432
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,800
for how A-Team performs. 
And it was a lot easier back 

433
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,400
then to, yeah, get things done. 
Yeah, it's like you can, you can

434
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,560
see it as a silo or it's like 
this incubator. 

435
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,360
There's a lot of stuff happens 
under the hood. 

436
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:18,200
That's why they all say start up
incubators. 

437
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,040
Like it's like a yeah, pressure 
cooker basically. 

438
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,920
And a lot of stuff is boiling. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

439
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,600
I mean, it's, it's like I had AI
had a very different perspective

440
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:31,000
on this, let's say 2 years back.
I mean, I was in one of the 

441
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,440
silos and I was always doing, I 
think everybody in team was 

442
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,400
always like will not use this 
thing that our core team or a 

443
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,640
platform team has built. 
We'll just do it our own way, 

444
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,400
etcetera. 
And now like I have a different 

445
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,240
perspective on things, right. 
So I'm more, I would say my 

446
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,480
scope has increased a little bit
and they start looking at it 

447
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,000
differently. 
For instance, one of the things 

448
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,000
that we have is Kibana is the 
biggest public TypeScript 

449
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:03,600
prepository in the world, and I 
was proud of that two years 

450
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,680
back, but now I'm like, that is 
embarrassing. 

451
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:07,280
Oh, really? 
Yeah. 

452
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,760
Like what? 
What does it mean to have the 

453
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,680
the highest amount of code in 
the world? 

454
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,120
It means that you're duplicating
things everywhere, right? 

455
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,600
It means that every, every team 
is doing things for themselves. 

456
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,600
They do it in slightly different
ways or whatever. 

457
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,160
And it creates a situation where
if you want to make a change, 

458
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,000
you can't do it in one place. 
So it's not a single problem 

459
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,480
that you need to solve. 
It's a dozen problems that you 

460
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,120
need to solve, or it's 20 
problems that you need to solve.

461
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:39,840
And that like, I just look at 
that totally different now. 

462
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,640
Like I just wish that looking 
back, I would have used the like

463
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,480
the platform thing that maybe 
wasn't the 100% right fit for my

464
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,960
use case, but it was a problem 
and it is, it was a solution. 

465
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,080
And if it's a problem, it's a 
problem that we can solve in one

466
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,040
place. 
And I think that's, yeah, my, my

467
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,440
perspective on that completely 
changed. 

468
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,520
Like let's go the better. 
That's funny, things like this 

469
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,680
and I, I've been like, the only 
experience I've had is some team

470
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,160
leadership, but also some 
product management. 

471
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,680
It's like if you see this, if 
you would now see a version of 

472
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,760
you where you can see a 
different person kind of 

473
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:18,440
treading on a similar path. 
Are you going to use this 

474
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,480
experience and like advise them 
no, no, no, use this because XY 

475
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,080
and Z and trying to inform them?
Or are you going to let them 

476
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,840
make their own mistakes? 
Because you learn from this 

477
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,240
experience. 
You made the mistake. 

478
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,400
You now have this perspective, 
which is a complete 180. 

479
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,800
That's something I'm like, I'm 
juggling with where I can see 

480
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,800
someone do it and I'm like, it's
not that harmful. 

481
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,200
They're going to realize it's a 
mistake and then they will never

482
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,640
forget. 
Because I know this person, they

483
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,440
take this responsibility highly.
They will never forget for the 

484
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,280
rest of their career. 
That's a good one. 

485
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,760
Or if they go this route, it 
blows up the product that that 

486
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,440
we have to prevent because that 
cannot happen. 

487
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,000
Yeah, because I, I, I remember 
seeing one of the interviews 

488
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,360
that you discussed this and I 
think you said like, I would 

489
00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:58,160
like that you'd leave room for 
people to make those mistakes. 

490
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,480
So this is again, like this is 
one of the things I struggle 

491
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,560
with. 
I would have hated working with 

492
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:13,040
me for sure, because I am, let's
say, strong willed, stubborn and

493
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,280
I like to do things my own way. 
And I, I would have hated to 

494
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,480
work with somebody like me. 
And I, I think that I'm as a 

495
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,560
tech lead or whatever you want 
to call it, like I do think I 

496
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,080
micromanage a little. 
Bit you're going to bump heads. 

497
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,520
You and you will bump heads. 
Yeah, me and me will bump heads 

498
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,240
for sure. 
Yeah, like worst enemies. 

499
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,880
But in terms of letting people 
mistake. 

500
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,080
So I think you need to have a 
system where there's 

501
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,920
accountability. 
So if people pay the price for 

502
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,760
their mistakes, by all means let
them make mistakes. 

503
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,320
If you have like a very mature 
system or a very modern system, 

504
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:54,000
I would say where you push code,
code get shipped to production. 

505
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,800
If it goes wrong, you get an 
alert within like 30 minutes. 

506
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,720
I think in that environment it's
very healthy to let people roam 

507
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,640
free and and make mistakes 
because like even the most 

508
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:13,320
dramatic things will get fixed 
within 5 minutes if you have a 

509
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,720
platform like we have. 
So we are essentially a database

510
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,280
or a database platform and we 
sell to enterprises. 

511
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:31,360
So anything that we ship, it 
takes about 6 or 12 months to 

512
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:38,160
reach the majority of customers.
So if you make a mistake, you 

513
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,240
pay that price a year later. 
And at that point, so many 

514
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,440
things will have happened that 
it might be really hard to 

515
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,240
recover from that mistake or the
person that made the mistake, 

516
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,640
they moved on to a different 
project. 

517
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,520
And at that point, like there's 
no accountability, there's no 

518
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,520
feedback loop, etcetera. 
So this is one of the things 

519
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,160
that I struggle with because 
I've been here for a while and I

520
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,040
think I have AI think I have a 
relatively good understanding of

521
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,240
what works and what doesn't 
work. 

522
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:08,720
And there's a lot of things that
I learned. 

523
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,880
I mean, the conversations that 
I'm, I'm in, like if I'm in a 

524
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,400
conversation with our CTO or 
with our distinguished 

525
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,040
engineers, they look at me the 
same way, right? 

526
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,120
So it's always a matter of 
perspective. 

527
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,520
But I think I have, I think I 
have a relatively good sense of 

528
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:25,640
what worked and what doesn't 
work. 

529
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,080
And what works of Elastic is not
always the same as what works at

530
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,200
let's say a Datadog like a pure 
SAS company where they can ship 

531
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,800
fixes in no time, they have good
telemetry on their users, 

532
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,000
etcetera. 
Like we have customers that 

533
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,040
deploy our software software on 
their own hardware without like 

534
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,600
any connection to the outside. 
World. 

535
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,120
We're completely in the dark. 
And I mean, enterprise software 

536
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,520
is weird anyway because there 
might be 1 customer that runs 

537
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,160
into a specific problem and they
can dictate your entire road map

538
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,840
just by virtue of them paying 
you millions a year. 

539
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,680
So you cannot do any kind of 
like quantitative analysis of 

540
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,720
user analytics because again, if
someone works for 90% of your 

541
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,000
customers but not for the 10% 
that are paying your bills, it 

542
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,440
doesn't matter. 
It's not the right choice. 

543
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:19,760
It's priorities. 
Yeah. 

544
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,400
So it's it, it's, it's very 
different. 

545
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,320
And this is it's hard for me to 
figure out a balance between 

546
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:35,920
letting somebody run with it 
with the understanding that they

547
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,480
will not feel that pain. 
So that kind of like what do you

548
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,600
call it, like the Pavlov reflex 
conditioning people that if they

549
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:49,400
do something wrong, that they 
are responsible for their 

550
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,920
health, accountable for it. 
That is missing. 

551
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,480
So then in that environment, how
do you approach like how do you 

552
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,480
let people grow without 
impacting the product? 

553
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:05,520
And I'm very focused on how well
are we doing as a company, like 

554
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,800
how well is our product doing? 
So sometimes I I think it's hard

555
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:18,880
for other people to to work with
me because I am pretty blunt 

556
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,760
about not believing in 
something. 

557
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,280
Yeah. 
So that is a struggle. 

558
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,160
I mean, I, you've also built up 
a certain level of credibility, 

559
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,360
right? 
And it's, I think it's hard. 

560
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,960
If you and I were to work day 
one and I didn't know you and 

561
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,920
you have this kind of 
opinionated version of you with 

562
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,920
regards to something I'm doing, 
which I think is the right 

563
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,920
thing. 
It'd be hard because then 

564
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,160
indeed, it's like this opinion. 
I do think you have a lot of, 

565
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,760
because you've been there for a 
while, you have a lot of like 

566
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,720
political credit, right? 
Yeah. 

567
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,920
You've seen things. 
You have a virtue of history and

568
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,240
not a lot of people have that. 
Not many people have that. 

569
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,240
And that should also kind of 
give you a base level of trust. 

570
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,240
Yes, but that works very 
differently for everybody, yeah.

571
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,920
So that's the hard part. 
Yeah, like sometimes it feels so

572
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,520
weird, right? 
So like, we were in Las Vegas a 

573
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:09,320
few months back and people come 
up to you almost as if you're 

574
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,320
like a kind of celebrity. 
I'm exaggerating, but it's 

575
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,880
something like like, hey, like, 
oh, respect, famous, blah, blah,

576
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,960
blah. 
And people, people, some people 

577
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,240
really feel that way and they 
look up to you a lot. 

578
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,400
But some other people don't care
about that at all, which is fine

579
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,040
too, but they approach you in 
your feedback very differently 

580
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,800
from the people that look up to 
you to some extent. 

581
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:43,840
And for me, it's if people don't
give me that, let's say, benefit

582
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,720
of the doubt or whatever, based 
on the fact that they know, OK, 

583
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,400
he's had a track record, he's 
done X&Y. 

584
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:55,160
And then I think it's hard for 
them to take my feedback. 

585
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,120
And that's also something that I
need to work on, right? 

586
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,200
Like I need to continuously have
empathy for people that don't 

587
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:07,000
know me, are not used to how I 
communicate because because they

588
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,040
will get frustrated with me 
being that blunt. 

589
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,400
Yeah, that's something that 
works against me for sure. 

590
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,280
Yeah, yeah, One of the things 
you mentioned earlier is this, 

591
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,320
like, I like directness. 
I mean, it's the culture I've 

592
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,159
grown up with. 
So I, I, I relate to you with 

593
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:22,199
that. 
One of the problems that I had 

594
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,880
with my own directnesses and 
someone shared this with me are 

595
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,600
still very valuable. 
And I was happy that they shared

596
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,040
it with me. 
But they said your feedback and 

597
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,000
like, your directness gave me 
the feeling that I was bad at my

598
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,800
job. 
And then I reflected. 

599
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,719
I was like, well, that's not 
really my intent, right? 

600
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,760
That was never my intent to a 
point where he would lie awake 

601
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,600
at night and like think about 
decisions or situations and 

602
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,800
stuff like that. 
I was like, man, like that. 

603
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,880
I'd never want to give someone 
that feeling. 

604
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,360
But then it's also I have to 
really think about what I say. 

605
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,520
Does something really matter? 
Does it not matter? 

606
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,000
And then what do I put emphasis 
on? 

607
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,040
Like what is, what do I truly 
believe in? 

608
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,320
And the feeling is from both 
sides. 

609
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,200
Like I cannot give someone a 
feeling. 

610
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,520
Someone also has the 
interpretation based on how I 

611
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,880
communicate. 
But still I don't want to 

612
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,120
contribute to that. 
That really made me reflect and 

613
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,880
be like, OK, I need to focus on 
sometimes things that matter and

614
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,200
sometimes things that don't 
matter. 

615
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,360
And I feel like you have a lot 
of similar thoughts in that. 

616
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,920
Yeah, yeah. 
I mean, it's I, I do like 

617
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,240
sometimes focus too much on 
details and it doesn't matter. 

618
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:24,840
Like maybe maybe it's not the 
right decision, but it doesn't 

619
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,960
matter where they're whether 
they're making the right 

620
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,760
decision or not because the 
impact on it's so low. 

621
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,200
But I think it's interesting 
that you say you, you would 

622
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,360
never want to give somebody the 
the feeling that they're bad at 

623
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:38,960
your job. 
Have you ever worked with 

624
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,960
somebody where you felt like 
they were bad at their job? 

625
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,360
Yeah, I have. 
But still, don't you still 

626
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,840
wouldn't want to give them the 
feeling that they're bad at 

627
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,640
their job. 
I don't think I so yeah, that's 

628
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,800
a hard 1. 
So in this case I did not think 

629
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,760
it was bad at bad at the job. 
So then that made me feel bad. 

630
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,760
I have worked with people where 
I was like, we just, there's 

631
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,400
something that they're missing, 
right? 

632
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,720
And I don't think they know. 
I always do think that everyone 

633
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:06,880
thinks what they, but they're 
doing what they believe is best 

634
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,560
for the organization. 
So then there might be a part of

635
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,840
misinformation. 
I think I shared with you before

636
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,360
the show, I joined in operations
and in that role I joined the 

637
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,360
team and they were doing some 
manual stuff of going into 

638
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,040
orders and like fixing orders 
because it didn't flow 

639
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,600
automatically and I was just 
fresh out of university. 

640
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,680
I was like, there's no way I'm 
going to do this day in day out.

641
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,520
This doesn't make any sense. 
Why doesn't, why don't these 

642
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,360
orders just go? 
They should be going, it's 

643
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,320
automated. 
So I figured out what the 

644
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,000
problem was and it was something
very simple. 

645
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,960
There were like spaces and 
telephone numbers and shouldn't 

646
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,840
be there in the 1st place. 
The website had validation. 

647
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,760
So that's not the problem. 
So it turned out to be old 

648
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,560
accounts. 
I I made sure that that was 

649
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,640
actually fixed. 
But yeah, the people that were 

650
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,440
doing that day in, day out, even
before I was there for months, I

651
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,080
was like, like, I don't bad at 
their jobs. 

652
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,120
Like say, I did think that 
especially early in career now I

653
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,920
was like, they were just, they 
didn't know. 

654
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,800
Like there was a part of the 
knowledge that was missing. 

655
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,080
Later on with one of the 
colleagues that did that thing, 

656
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,920
I had a kind of a heated 
argument where I was like, OK, 

657
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,040
for XY and Z reason, this is 
never going to happen again. 

658
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,680
Or This is why this is not 
really valuable and we shouldn't

659
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,920
do anything with this. 
And he was like, I'm just doing 

660
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,320
my job when this comes in, this 
is the procedure and I'm doing 

661
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,640
like this. 
And this really bumped it. 

662
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,360
And I was, I mean, especially 
back then early 20s, I was like,

663
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,920
there's no way. 
Like I had, I had this in my 

664
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,560
mind that this is my first job. 
I'm kind of like a wild card. 

665
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,560
I can do whatever I want. 
If it's not going to happen, I'm

666
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:32,880
going somewhere else. 
I don't care. 

667
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,960
But I'm definitely like, this is
what I believe in strongly. 

668
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,280
Well, he lashed out. 
He said, I'm being a bad 

669
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,080
colleague. 
He yelled at me and that. 

670
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,160
And I actually, like, took that 
with me and I was like, man, I 

671
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,360
didn't. 
I don't want to make someone 

672
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:47,560
blow up. 
And it's probably from both 

673
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,120
sides, maybe at a bad week or 
whatever. 

674
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,960
It really sat with me and I made
him apologize to my manager. 

675
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:54,840
He thought it was all like 
childish. 

676
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,360
I was like, I don't care for me.
This is principally all right. 

677
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,080
We work together on a certain 
level and we meet as humans 1st 

678
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,240
and we don't yell at each other 
and then working separate. 

679
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,280
So yeah, I did think it was bad 
at his job, but I still wouldn't

680
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:08,560
want him to give him the 
feeling. 

681
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,520
I like people that are open 
minded, that also want to learn 

682
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,560
and that also want to grow. 
And I don't mind if we bump 

683
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,440
heads as long as we then 
disagree and we commit to 

684
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,760
something. 
And if I need to force your hand

685
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,680
basically by going to your 
manager and being like, this is 

686
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,360
what I believe, do you agree 
with me or I learned something 

687
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:26,600
new? 
That's completely fine with me, 

688
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:28,840
yeah. 
Yeah, no, I get that. 

689
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,280
And I think I agree in the sense
that I mean, in general, I don't

690
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:39,760
want to make people feel bad, 
but I think there's, I think 

691
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,880
it's really important to 
establish a culture of 

692
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:44,320
accountability. 
I agree. 

693
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,280
And that also means managing low
performance. 

694
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:54,480
So if people are not performing,
that needs to be managed and 

695
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,560
that is HR speak for they need 
to be let go. 

696
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,640
Some people just aren't the 
right fit for the organization. 

697
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,480
They might excel in smarter 
place, but this is not the right

698
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:14,160
place for them. 
And I think what at least 

699
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:18,760
elastic, I think what has 
happened too often is that those

700
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:25,760
people are they're not being 
told that they're not 

701
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,080
performing. 
And that I think is detrimental 

702
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,680
to everybody. 
It's personally frustrating for 

703
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,840
me. 
It's really frustrating for me 

704
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:45,000
to see people not performing, 
not not seeing their 

705
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,720
contributions in the right 
perspective, winging it. 

706
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,280
I mean, that's also the downside
of a remote culture, right? 

707
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,680
Like it's really easy for you to
fake work. 

708
00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,960
Ghost. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

709
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,320
And I think there's there's 
people that are doing that for 

710
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,520
sure. 
And if you don't want people 

711
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,320
accountable for that, I think 
you. 

712
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:10,400
Create the wrong kind of 
culture. 

713
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,320
I agree. 
And in that sense, I think it's 

714
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,440
OK to make people a little bit 
uncomfortable sometimes that 

715
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:27,480
you're clear in the fact that 
they're not doing the thing that

716
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,760
you asked them to or they're not
doing the thing that they're not

717
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:35,160
doing the thing at a level that 
is expected of them in their 

718
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,720
position. 
And this I, I sometimes think 

719
00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:41,600
about like, is this toxic or 
not? 

720
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,160
And I think to some extent it 
is. 

721
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,240
But I also feel like this is 
software engineering and any 

722
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:52,080
software engineer, especially at
a company like Elastic, they can

723
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:56,360
get a job anywhere else and they
will still be handsomely paid. 

724
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:01,040
Like, I don't think we need to 
treat software engineers as if 

725
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:08,400
they were like lower class of 
workers that need to be 

726
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,640
protected against, you know, 
like the, the, the waves of 

727
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,560
capitalism or whatever. 
I mean, we're software 

728
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:19,800
engineers, we have it very well.
And I think in that, in that 

729
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:25,400
context where you get paid very 
handsome amount, you are a 

730
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:33,920
remote worker, the company gives
you a lot of flexibility and how

731
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,880
you work, where you work from, 
what kind of work you do and 

732
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,680
whatever. 
I think you can make clear to 

733
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,920
people that there is something 
being expected from them. 

734
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,960
And that is, that is one of the 
reasons I think why I'm 

735
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,960
sometimes I'm OK with making 
people feel a little bit 

736
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,600
uncomfortable. 
I mean, I like the way like my 

737
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,000
previous manager IG, he put it, 
I also invited him to the 

738
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,240
podcast. 
His name is John Mueller. 

739
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,720
And especially in the European 
context, he said that hiring is 

740
00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:11,480
one of the biggest jobs you're 
going to have, choosing your 

741
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,120
next colleague who you're going 
to work with day in, day out. 

742
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,400
And especially in Netherlands 
where you have a big hiring 

743
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,200
process. 
And the reason for this big 

744
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,360
hiring process is getting 
someone out of the organization 

745
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,320
is very difficult. 
You have to go severance. 

746
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,320
You have to have evidence. 
Like if there's a rotten apple, 

747
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:34,200
it might kind of, yeah, create 
this toxic vibe within the team 

748
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,080
and maybe even within a 
department. 

749
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,000
A few people, that's all you 
need basically. 

750
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,000
A few people that you see 
coasting and then other people 

751
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,760
think it's OK. 
Where behaviour doesn't get 

752
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,800
addressed. 
It can definitely snowball, 

753
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,120
especially in and I think 
Elastic is like one of those 

754
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:53,200
tier one companies, incredibly 
high engineering culture and 

755
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,000
also very well paid with regards
to what people get compensated 

756
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,600
for what they do and also the 
problems they solve. 

757
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,520
It's hard to get in. 
It should also be like, this is 

758
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,560
what is expected of you. 
And it might sound harsh, but 

759
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,680
yeah, indeed, I am a person. 
I don't have a house, I don't 

760
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,520
have any kids, I don't have any 
pets. 

761
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,360
I like my job. 
I put a lot of effort in my job 

762
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,800
compared to a person that has 
kids that I then barely see 

763
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,800
online that is not necessarily 
contributing. 

764
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,880
I would be like, OK, is this the
environment for me? 

765
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,000
Because if we're going to be 
equally valued, even though our 

766
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,800
lives are completely different 
and what our output is and we're

767
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,840
working towards outcomes is also
different. 

768
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,400
I would definitely reflect and 
it might be a little bit toxic 

769
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,400
like I agree, but it's like it 
it is for me. 

770
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,240
If I see myself as a high 
performer, I want to be with 

771
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:42,400
people that are like minded on 
that aspect. 

772
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,640
I don't mind anything with 
regards to diversity, where you 

773
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,760
come from, what your education 
is, what your experience is, but

774
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,520
we are working towards a shared 
goal. 

775
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,960
And I need the person right, 
right from me to also see that 

776
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,440
goal and the person left for me 
also to be that goal. 

777
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,120
And if the person right from me 
is looking somewhere else, I'm 

778
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,520
like, what are we doing here? 
We need to be on the same line 

779
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,480
because otherwise what are we 
A-Team for also? 

780
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,680
That's the difficult part. 
And I agree with you. 

781
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,360
Like, yeah, I've been in 
situations, and this is in 

782
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,760
consultancy where I was 
responsible for one thing. 

783
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,400
My colleague went on holiday, we
had a new person come in and 

784
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,080
they were just not productive. 
They just had a kid and I 

785
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,280
started doing everything myself.
I worked over hours to make sure

786
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,280
we still delivered. 
And this person, I was like, 

787
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,520
he's really good. 
He's just really not doing 

788
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,960
anything. 
And I could, I did not know how 

789
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,440
to manage. 
And then afterwards, after this 

790
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:32,920
whole process, the other person 
came back. 

791
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,120
He said. 
I completely understand with 

792
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,040
you, but we do have to talk to 
like the delivery manager for 

793
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,240
this because this compromises 
the project, which would be way 

794
00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:42,000
worse. 
I was trying to solve everything

795
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,600
myself. 
I could not. 

796
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,240
Yeah, because this is always the
case, right? 

797
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:46,600
It becomes somebody else's 
problem if. 

798
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,240
Somebody's I made it my own 
problem. 

799
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:50,440
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
It's, it's also a pitfall. 

800
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,840
Yeah. 
But I think it's like, I think 

801
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,160
you're right in that hiring is 
really hard. 

802
00:44:56,720 --> 00:45:00,520
And I think I think it's really 
important that you make sure 

803
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:05,200
that you're very critical the 
1st 6 to 12 months about whether

804
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,040
somebody's a match. 
And if you feel any like kind of

805
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,360
doubt or whatever in again, in 
Europe, where we have different 

806
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:19,040
protections, if there's any kind
of doubt, let them go because 

807
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:20,760
there's, there's going to be 
someone else. 

808
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:22,440
Like it's not that big of a 
deal. 

809
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,040
And after that, it's really hard
to get rid of a person who's 

810
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,440
ghosting. 
Like if I say this out loud it 

811
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,800
feels so bad because. 
I mean, I don't think we live in

812
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,240
a dog eat dog world with regards
to software engineering. 

813
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,920
There's a lot of positions that 
are open, even though now on the

814
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,440
job market it's a bit harder. 
I do wish best for everyone, but

815
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,440
it's like, yeah, you're working 
towards your own interests, the 

816
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:46,880
best interest for the 
organization. 

817
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,240
And if I believe that the best 
interest for the organization is

818
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:52,720
not this person and that's in 
the end what we do, that's also 

819
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:55,400
what you get hired for. 
It might not be a nice thing 

820
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,800
socially, but then in the end, 
yeah, it's also it compromises 

821
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,160
my own motivation. 
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think if 

822
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,040
you like, if you don't have 
that, if you don't have those 

823
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,480
checks and balances, people who 
are high performance, they will 

824
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,720
zone out. 
Like I, I see that happening. 

825
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:13,640
Like people who are really 
talented, they see other people 

826
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,760
getting promoted because they're
they're in, they're in specific 

827
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,440
team, they're in specific team 
or like maybe they complain a 

828
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,880
lot to the manager. 
There's all kinds of reasons why

829
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,160
somebody gets promoted and that,
but they see people who get 

830
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:33,920
promoted who are not doing their
job well and they zone out and 

831
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,600
that that that is the worst. 
I think that can happen. 

832
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:40,240
People who are really talented 
and can be really valuable to 

833
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:42,840
your work. 
They just feel like it doesn't 

834
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,080
matter if they perform or not 
and they zone out. 

835
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,200
One of my last thoughts, I 
wanted to zone in on something 

836
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,200
that you said earlier. 
Very early on, you said I was 

837
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,840
responsible as a sole person 
with regards to the delivery. 

838
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,840
And then that changed and the 
collaboration came into it and 

839
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,760
you were like, oh, how do I 
collaborate in the 1st place? 

840
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,920
What's your opinion on 
collaborating as a team to 

841
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,960
create and work towards shared 
outcomes? 

842
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,440
Because me as a person, I, I 
came into teams. 

843
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,360
Teams is all I know. 
I put a lot of value in teams. 

844
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:16,480
So I'm very interested since you
came from this sole contributing

845
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,120
kind of role where you take on 
collaboration is nowadays. 

846
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,800
I will preface this with the 
fact that I'm just, I think I'm 

847
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:32,280
bad at teamwork. 
I think I'm not a fan of, let's 

848
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,480
say, what do you call it, 
Holocracy, where you have like, 

849
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,000
well, let's say just democracy 
in the workplace. 

850
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:46,000
I think it's overrated. 
I think a company is the most 

851
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,240
effective if there's clear 
guidance and a clear 

852
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:52,520
understanding of where you need 
to work towards. 

853
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,480
In an ideal world, this is 
established to some kind of like

854
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,920
very democratic model where 
people can contribute towards 

855
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:08,280
defining those goals, etcetera. 
What I find really refreshing is

856
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,960
working with our CTO, Shy, who's
just very direct in what he 

857
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,200
wants and what he doesn't want. 
And I don't always agree. 

858
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:21,160
And then I have a discussion 
with him and then it takes, it 

859
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:27,400
takes every amount of courage or
ego, whatever that I have to 

860
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,520
disagree and commit to whatever 
he's telling me to do. 

861
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,560
And I think that's fine. 
Like I don't always have to 

862
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:42,640
agree if somebody who I know has
a has a better understanding of 

863
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,840
where the company needs to go, 
if they're telling me something 

864
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,040
that I don't agree with, it's 
fine for me to just do it their 

865
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,680
way as long as we can keep on 
moving. 

866
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,680
And not everybody gets away with
that, right? 

867
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:02,480
So shy can tell somebody that in
his shy way and people will 

868
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,760
accept it. 
I cannot do that, of course, but

869
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,040
I think in general, I think it's
fine to have hierarchy. 

870
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:15,160
Like I think it's it just, it 
just makes me feel like I don't 

871
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,720
always have to have an opinion 
about everything. 

872
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,280
And somebody else will tell me 
to do it and it's fine and I 

873
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,680
will have my opinions on things 
where my opinion is useful. 

874
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,200
I, I, yeah, I like, I'm not a 
big fan of a model where 

875
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,440
everything that comes on the 
road map needs to be discussed 

876
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,840
with the team or everybody needs
to have input. 

877
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:44,360
Because I honestly at a company 
like Elastic where you have 

878
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,920
probably like 12 to 1500 
engineers, product managers, 

879
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,360
designs and whatever. 
Like it's the company is huge 

880
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:59,240
and it's not possible for 
somebody who's in one of the 202

881
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:04,600
hundred 5500 teams or whatever 
to have a good understanding of 

882
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:09,840
what the impact is of whatever 
day, whatever opinion they have.

883
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:21,000
It's much easier to have a much 
more top down approach to making

884
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,560
road map. 
And of course, like, I know like

885
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:27,840
it can be super frustrating if 
you have your own ideas and 

886
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:29,560
somebody's telling you what to 
do whatever. 

887
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,880
But for me personally, as long 
as the person who's telling me 

888
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,400
to do it, as long as I have 
respect for them, as long as I 

889
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,480
know like they know more than 
me, they, they know this better,

890
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,360
I'm totally fine with being top 
down. 

891
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:50,160
And I think and I think that 
comes back to being direct or 

892
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:57,240
not to some extent. 
If you, if you give people, if 

893
00:50:57,240 --> 00:51:00,240
you give everyone the same 
amount of space and same amount 

894
00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:08,240
of authority, even though they, 
their contribution to the shared

895
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:11,640
goal, whatever is, is not the 
same as somebody else. 

896
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,520
I think again, that leads to a 
culture of maybe everybody feels

897
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:22,440
like they're heard, but if 
you're not making an impact as a

898
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,800
team or as a person in your team
or whatever, if you like, if you

899
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,120
for instance, if we go back to 
the example of a team working 12

900
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:35,240
to 18 months on a on a feature 
and the feature just being like 

901
00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:38,960
the old initiative being killed.
Maybe that team was like maybe 

902
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:43,520
they all felt heard and maybe 
they all felt like their ideas 

903
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,680
were being valued in the end. 
They feel much worse without 

904
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:53,360
their work not being useful. 
So for me, it's fine for me to 

905
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,040
put something in front of the 
CTO and the CTO shutting it 

906
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,560
down. 
And maybe I've spent a month on 

907
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:00,760
that. 
Maybe I spent two months on 

908
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,400
that, Fine, I'll accept it. 
Maybe it's a little bit of it 

909
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:08,440
for my ego, but I'll move on 
because I know I've not spent 

910
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,280
six months, I've not spent 12 
months on working something that

911
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,320
that was just useless. 
And I've, I've made those like 

912
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,360
I've, I've made like I've, I've 
try to work on ID is that if I 

913
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,640
look back at it, they were just 
like dumb IDs. 

914
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:28,000
And I I wish somebody would have
told me that was that it was a 

915
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,120
dumb ID. 
You might not have listened. 

916
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,280
I might not have listened no, 
because like I, I know, like 

917
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,560
I'm, I'm stubborn and to some 
extent that also got me to the 

918
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,320
to the point where I'm at. 
But he also like, I genuinely 

919
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,720
feel totally OK with people 
telling me it's the wrong ID. 

920
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:50,200
And I think that that is also 
how I approach teamwork to some 

921
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:51,920
extent. 
And I think this this is what 

922
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,440
tripped me up as well a little 
bit, because I will just, I will

923
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,720
tell somebody like I don't think
this is a good idea and I'm not 

924
00:52:57,720 --> 00:53:01,000
even going to tell them don't do
it. 

925
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,800
I just tell them it's not a good
idea. 

926
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:08,720
But then people, people like, 
people want people want you to 

927
00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:10,520
tell them. 
Yeah, why? 

928
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:15,600
Yeah, or not even. 
They just want you like they 

929
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:20,520
they want to agree. 
It's really hard for people to 

930
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:26,200
disagree and and accept that 
that's totally fine to disagree.

931
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:32,480
Like any time I I voice my 
opinion on something, I can 

932
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,400
always tell that people are 
looking for agreement, but I 

933
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,720
don't care about agreement. 
I just told you like, I don't 

934
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:40,520
think that's a good idea. 
You think they're about a 

935
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,320
different OK, like this is not 
my responsibility. 

936
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,400
So do what you want to do. 
But then I think, I think it's 

937
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,280
human right to to want to feel 
that. 

938
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,360
Do you then say that because 
I've been in situations where 

939
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,240
indeed I'm saying I don't think 
we are going to agree because 

940
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:00,320
there's I, I'm not changing my 
opinion. 

941
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,000
You you've said why and I just 
don't agree. 

942
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,120
Like we understand each other 
and we still don't agree, which 

943
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,040
is fine. 
Which is fine, but I think a lot

944
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,960
of people, a lot of people find 
that really hard. 

945
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:11,440
Yeah, it can be. 
To accept. 

946
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,520
I mean, it's like winning an 
argument, right? 

947
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:16,440
There's no win, there's no loss.
Yeah, yeah. 

948
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:17,800
It's just an impasse. 
Yeah, yeah. 

949
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,880
And in the end, doesn't matter. 
Yeah, I agree. 

950
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:21,120
So you just have to move on, 
yeah. 

951
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,080
Yeah, yeah. 
So like we have, we have like 

952
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:26,880
we, we call this, we bring this 
up, guide off the right. 

953
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,880
So disagree and commit. 
There's a disagreement, but you 

954
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,760
need to commit one way or the 
other because the worst possible

955
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,720
outcome is you disagree and you 
kind of like fake agree maybe, 

956
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:39,320
but then you go off. 
And you do something else. 

957
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,280
Do something else. 
That is the worst, that is the 

958
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:44,120
worst. 
So this, but this is another 

959
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:52,400
reason why I think creating a 
situation where people feel 

960
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,320
uncomfortable or where it's 
clear that they disagree is a 

961
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,960
really good thing, because then 
it's clear to everybody what 

962
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:05,440
their position is. 
And then you can, yeah, you can 

963
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:09,080
commit to a specific option, but
everybody's very aware of what 

964
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:14,440
they're actually thinking. 
So it's much easier to plan 

965
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,040
whatever the next step is 
because you don't have this 

966
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:21,040
situation where somebody's told 
you, yeah, I think it's a good 

967
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,480
idea. 
And then when push comes to to 

968
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,360
shove, they do something else or
they kill the project or 

969
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,600
whatever that you're working on 
because they didn't really 

970
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:35,880
agree. 
I think it's, that's the worst 

971
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,880
possible outcome. 
No, but I, I, no, I hate it. 

972
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,560
I hate it, I hate it. 
I mean, it's, it's really hard. 

973
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:45,360
I think it's really hard to, 
like you said, like to take it 

974
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,680
personal. 
It's really hard to detach 

975
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,520
yourself and your ego from 
whatever you're being told. 

976
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:55,120
I have it all the time. 
People tell me this is not 

977
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:58,800
great, that you're doing it. 
And my instinct is always to 

978
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,200
push back and then I need to 
remember, like I need to take a 

979
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,960
breather and then I need to look
at the feedback. 

980
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,320
For what it's worth, maybe I 
don't agree with the feedback, 

981
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:15,160
that's fine. 
But that the immediate reflex of

982
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:20,920
serving your ego and pushing 
back, that is something that 

983
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:23,480
isn't really helpful. 
Yeah. 

984
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,640
But there's a few things there. 
I think the fact that you are so

985
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:30,040
reflective about what your 
action is, what your default is,

986
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,680
and how you want to change that 
or at least try and play around 

987
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:34,280
with it and see what's most 
effective. 

988
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,800
I think you put such emphasis on
kind of this. 

989
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,040
We need to keep moving. 
And even though it's not my 

990
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:43,280
idea, or even though I might not
agree, as long as I think they 

991
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,880
know something I don't, and as 
long as there's this mutual form

992
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,200
of respect, we can do it. 
I've been in many situations 

993
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,920
where indeed something I didn't 
necessarily agree with or 

994
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,800
something indeed where I thought
I might not get the full 

995
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,000
picture, but I can, I can kind 
of see it that I could still do 

996
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,680
it where I cannot do it. 
And I've also told people is 

997
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,040
where I fully disagree, where 
they've said everything they had

998
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,280
to say. 
And I'm just like, I think this 

999
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,600
is bad for the organization. 
Then I would also say I will not

1000
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,040
do it. 
I've been in those situations. 

1001
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:14,920
And then it was like, yeah, what
do you do? 

1002
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,160
Then my product manager would 
just go to another colleague and

1003
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,720
be like, well, this and this and
can we do it? 

1004
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:21,520
I was like, we should not do it.
That's not the point. 

1005
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,600
We can do everything. 
Yeah. 

1006
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,560
Yeah, like, I, I try. 
I mean, there's, there's 

1007
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:32,760
definitely been situations like 
that, right, where I disagree 

1008
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:36,120
with someone who's way above my 
pay grade. 

1009
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,960
And I genuinely think that it's 
bad for the product, but I still

1010
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:41,880
do it. 
But it really depends on who's 

1011
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,000
telling me. 
Yeah, because it really depends 

1012
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:46,520
on who's telling. 
Me, I'll tell you my situation 

1013
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,960
after I think you operate at a 
higher level than when I had 

1014
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,400
those conversations because I 
can escalate. 

1015
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,000
I can be. 
I know the people I need to 

1016
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,520
reach out to, to tell this 
person that this is bullshit, 

1017
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:58,800
basically. 
But if you don't have any other 

1018
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,560
people to go to, then it's a 
harder conversation. 

1019
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,280
Then it's like, yeah, like we 
just have a different vision. 

1020
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,520
Yeah, I mean this, this is also 
one of the things that I'm 

1021
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:11,760
running into, right? 
Because I have an opinion about 

1022
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,560
a lot of things. 
Again, my scope is it's 

1023
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:19,240
increased and I have an opinion 
about things that are not in my 

1024
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:22,480
reporting chain, but they do 
impact the work that I'm doing. 

1025
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:23,840
They're not in my reporting 
chain. 

1026
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,240
And if things are not in my 
reporting chain, it's really 

1027
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,960
hard for me to escalate. 
It's really hard for me to get 

1028
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:34,280
the grown-ups involved to change
the way that we work or 

1029
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,760
whatever. 
And this is sometimes like, it's

1030
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,760
really hard. 
And then I, I, I say to people 

1031
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,600
directly, and then that 
sometimes also creates fiction. 

1032
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:48,080
And then what they tell you to 
do is they tell you that you 

1033
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,560
need to escalate, right? 
So if you're, I, I, I really 

1034
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:53,680
don't like this. 
But what they tell you to do is 

1035
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,640
like, if you, if you're not 
happy with the work that 

1036
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,840
somebody's doing, you need to 
escalate rather than telling 

1037
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:06,000
that person directly. 
But there needs to be an 

1038
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,280
escalation path. 
And honestly, like, I hate that.

1039
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:13,720
Like I, I hate it because I 
don't like, it's just not how I 

1040
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,640
want to operate. 
I don't want to go behind 

1041
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:18,200
people's back and complain about
them. 

1042
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,520
Eventually I will, but I 
guarantee you that everybody 

1043
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:26,360
that I complain about, they know
what I feel about them. 

1044
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,520
I mean, escalations are 
interesting because they're like

1045
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:31,560
different within various 
organizations. 

1046
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:34,600
My first organization, 
escalation wasn't a bad thing. 

1047
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,120
Apparently it was needed. 
It was like a necessary thing. 

1048
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:41,280
My last organization, I had this
conversation with a vendor and 

1049
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,760
they came in and they had the 
specific task to take some 

1050
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,480
burden off my team. 
And I told them this is not a 

1051
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,760
burden. 
Like transferring this to you is

1052
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,320
going to be more effort than 
what it is now in the team and 

1053
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:53,240
it's going to go away anyway. 
So this problem will self 

1054
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,040
resolve, but the contract were 
already signed. 

1055
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,760
He said like we need this part. 
And I was like, is there any 

1056
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,000
other way where we can get this 
team to be effective? 

1057
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:02,440
Like that's the conversation I 
want to have. 

1058
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,400
He didn't want to play ball. 
He somewhere escalate. 

1059
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,240
I said, well, if if you don't 
want to like see how we can 

1060
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:11,960
collaborate and like, yeah, I'm 
like, I don't see any other way.

1061
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:13,960
If this is what you feel 
completely fine. 

1062
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:15,680
He did. 
I never heard back from him 

1063
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,800
ever, ever again. 
Like that's fine with me. 

1064
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,040
I've had to escalate for other 
people because if you work at 

1065
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,440
big organizations, you have some
approval processes and if you've

1066
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,880
got a sandbagging and I need 
this out right now because of 

1067
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,720
promises and expectations, then 
yeah, I will have to say, OK, 

1068
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:33,480
I'm going to. 
I need to escalate and I will 

1069
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,120
tell the people and I will put 
them in the CC in the same 

1070
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,720
escalation to the manager and 
they're there the whole time. 

1071
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:40,160
I don't like this going behind 
the back. 

1072
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:41,320
That's why I just put them 
there. 

1073
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,400
I'm like I told you, I was 
escalating this de escalation. 

1074
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:46,400
That's how I handle it because 
this feeling of going behind, 

1075
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:47,600
that's not what I want to do 
here. 

1076
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,320
It's this is the outcome we're 
working towards. 

1077
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:54,520
If people are sandbagging or if 
people don't agree, I know I 

1078
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:55,680
should have the right 
priorities. 

1079
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:57,480
Otherwise, I'll be set straight.
I don't mind. 

1080
01:00:57,880 --> 01:00:59,880
I don't mind if I escalate and 
the people are saying, well, 

1081
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:01,480
Patrick, actually this is more 
important. 

1082
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,640
So you'll go next. 
Completely fine. 

1083
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:06,320
Honestly, I just need to like 
you. 

1084
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:09,120
I need to keep moving. 
Basically, if we stand still, I 

1085
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:10,520
hate it. 
Yeah, Yeah, I hate that feeling.

1086
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,480
Yeah, yeah. 
Because I I still genuinely 

1087
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:16,640
believe that that is, well, for 
most people that that that is 

1088
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:18,680
the true motivator to keep 
things moving. 

1089
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:24,720
And it it should just be the top
priority for everybody. 

1090
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,080
And even if they have to 
sacrifice a little bit of their 

1091
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,080
ego, whatever you got to keep 
things moving. 

1092
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:35,200
It is so satisfying to not just 
keep moving but to deliver and 

1093
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:38,200
like ship features to whatever. 
If it's enterprise, if it's end 

1094
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:42,000
users, consumers or business to 
keep shaping your software, it's

1095
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:44,840
incredibly gratifying. 
Yeah, like I always see, I 

1096
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,920
always see, I always see 
software engineering, at least 

1097
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:53,480
to me, it's just, it's, it's 
sports like it's, it's high 

1098
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:59,240
level competitive sports for me.
And I think that just dictates 

1099
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:06,440
how I how I handle things. 
Like everything is just like 

1100
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:11,280
the, the like the drive and the 
motivation and the adrenaline 

1101
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,240
rush or whatever that you get 
and the vindication and the 

1102
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:16,760
recognition. 
It's all sports. 

1103
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,800
Like I don't care about being 
paid a lot of money and not 

1104
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,720
doing anything like that. 
That doesn't motivate me at all 

1105
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:28,480
at all. 
And I just see like, OK, like I 

1106
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:34,280
just want to be the best team. 
I want to be the best player. 

1107
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:36,960
Maybe I don't not even want like
I want to be the best team. 

1108
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,720
I do generally believe I want to
be the best team, but I want to 

1109
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,160
win things. 
And if I'm not winning things 

1110
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:45,520
and I've worked, I've worked for
a long time at companies that 

1111
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:49,120
were not winning, it just burns 
you out. 

1112
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:52,880
It just makes you feel horrible 
without the work that you're 

1113
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:54,000
doing. 
It's not as fun. 

1114
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:56,360
It's it's not fun. 
It's not fun, like all the 

1115
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,920
effort that you're putting into 
whatever and the company is not 

1116
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,760
winning. 
It just it kills me. 

1117
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,600
And I mean, like, I think there 
are people who don't really 

1118
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,160
care, like they care about what 
they're doing. 

1119
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:11,960
But I think in general, the main
focus for everybody should be 

1120
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:16,840
let's get the company moving and
then we can talk about how we 

1121
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,920
make adjustments or whatever to 
make certain people feel better.

1122
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:22,560
But if the company is not 
moving, if the company is not 

1123
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:24,040
winning, everybody feel feel 
bad. 

1124
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:28,760
And you can have all your 
processes and recognition and 

1125
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,360
democracy and whatever, but if 
the company is not winning, 

1126
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:33,280
nobody's feeling good. 
Yeah, that's it. 

1127
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:36,200
Thanks so much man for coming on
and sharing. 

1128
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,280
This was the blast. 
I I really enjoyed this 

1129
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:41,000
conversation. 
Thank you for your insights with

1130
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,560
the rest of the career, your 
perspective on a lot of things. 

1131
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:45,680
I'm going to relisten to this 
episode because I think I had a.

1132
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:46,680
Lot. 
I really enjoyed it. 

1133
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,080
Like I didn't expect. 
I didn't expect you to be in the

1134
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,160
same boat. 
I think we have a lot of 

1135
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:52,640
similarities. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1136
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,160
Good stuff. 
Then we're going to round it off

1137
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:56,680
here. 
If you're still here, leave a 

1138
01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:59,440
like if you'd like the episode, 
it's free, it's the best way to 

1139
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:01,600
support the episode, and I'll 
see you next time.