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The world is is changing every 
month. 

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It's scary to be a a graduate 
engineer nowadays. 

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AI is not going to take your 
job. 

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The person who knows how to use 
AI better than your, they will 

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pick your battles, disagree and 
commit. 

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I I love to build things and it 
was tough to realize that you 

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put so, so much effort into 
building something that people 

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don't need. 
How do you build a career? 

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Specifically a software engineer
developing apps for mobile. 

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That's what we discussed today 
and we talk about AI assisted Co

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tooling, how to leverage them to
make yourself more productive 

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and faster than ever before. 
Joining me today, he's head of 

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mobile is my good friend Pasha 
and previous guests and friends 

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of mine have told me great 
things about Pasha and I can see

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exactly why. 
So enjoy, I don't talk to many 

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mobile engineers and the only 
experience I have has been in 

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React Native specifically. 
But I'm very curious in your 

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work experience for more on the 
productivity side nowadays on a 

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day-to-day, what do you use in 
AI tooling that makes you really

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productive in what you do or 
what is effective in the end? 

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So it's mostly cloud. 
I've got a a console or multiple

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consoles with with cloud open 
and basically I'm trying to use 

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it as a junior slash medium 
engineer, fellow engineer who 

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can help me bounce of ideas and 
who can help me with code 

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reviews. 
For example review my code in in

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in the 1st place and obviously 
to write some code as well. 

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So as long as you have a solid 
foundation set up in terms of MD

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files that help to give context 
to to to the AII think it could 

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be very helpful in in this 
regards. 

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Definitely. 
So I recently joined that new 

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company and definitely AI was 
super helpful when it comes to 

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learning new code base, right? 
You can ask it anything. 

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What kind of features do I have 
in, in this code? 

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What are the entry points to 
these features? 

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List them out and point me to 
the files. 

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And then I go there, I look look
at the code and I I understand 

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how it's all orchestrated and 
how it all works. 

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Can you do this with multiple 
terminals as well? 

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Yeah. 
How? 

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How do you manage that? 
So it's T Max, basically a split

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of 4T Max windows. 
And that's something also I, I 

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started to use very recently. 
Before I didn't use windows 

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splits at all, or terminal 
splits rather. 

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But with Clod, it's actually 
very, very useful because in one

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window, in one pane, I guess 
it's called, you have a feature 

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planner, an AI who is writing a 
spec. 

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In another pane you have an AI 
who is following the spec and is

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implementing the thing. 
In third one, you have an AI who

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would review things and you 
don't pollute the context of 

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each AI. 
So you kind of have to remember 

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which pane is responsible for 
what. 

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But then in the end of the day 
you you get pretty fast workflow

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with that. 
Interesting. 

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When you set multiple windows, 
my assumption was that each 

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window would work on another 
feature in isolation. 

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But this is not what you're 
doing. 

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You're actually doing one 
feature and then you have 

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different kind of purposes 
within a pane. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
So I've got multiple repos of 

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the same project setup. 
So if a pull request is in 

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review, if I consider feature 
done ish, then I can move on to 

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the next feature in another 
another repo. 

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So similar to what you 
described. 

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Interesting. 
I haven't done that yet because 

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I have been trying this thing 
out. 

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I went from product management 
back to more hands on software 

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engineering. 
And this is one of the first 

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things that I actually struggled
with was OK, one feature is 

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done, I'm going. 
And I did definitely have some 

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context pollution because then I
go to another feature within the

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same conversation, even without 
clearing my context and it goes,

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oh, all the changes that we had 
are gone, we need to add them 

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again. 
And I was like, OK, so this is, 

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this is definitely a user error 
here basically. 

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And then I do hear people with 
multiple terminals and indeed 

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working on multiple features, 
but I'm like, how do you fix or 

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how do you go in specific 
feature branches? 

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And you've solved that with 
actually having multiple 

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repositories. 
Yeah, yeah, there there are work

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trees Git can do can do work 
trees. 

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One thing that I didn't try that
yet, I did try work trees back 

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maybe 10 years ago. 
And one thing that kind of put 

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me off off using work trees is 
that you cannot have two 

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different work trees checking 
out the same branch. 

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I'm not sure if this is 
something that is fixed. 

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So you cannot have to work with 
checking out develop basically. 

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And that's something that I 
usually do. 

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I check out develop, I pull 
latest changes, I work in 

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develop, I don't push. 
And then I have a a command that

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would just check out a new 
branch and well, put a command 

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that the new branch and and 
finish it. 

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But for that I need to stay in 
develop and that's kind of how I

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operate, how I used to it. 
So for for me it's easier to 

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have. 
Multiple repositories. 

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Gotcha. 
Is there more you can share that

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makes you effective with regards
to AI assisted Co tooling? 

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So I find that our case is 
pretty successful in terms of AI

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because I know that people 
sometimes they struggle and 

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there was a study that I don't 
know how many 95% of 

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organizations adopting AI that 
don't see if efficiency 

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increase. 
For me personally, I see 

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efficiency increase, but what I 
do is I actually use them as a 

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as a junior engineer, not 
letting them do everything for 

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me, but rather review their 
code, their AIS code. 

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How do we review specs, iterate 
on specs? 

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I I read what they write 
basically and yeah. 

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And that is, I mean, I agree, 
it's something you or right now,

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it's not something that I want 
to let go, yet fully trust an 

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autonomous agent. 
Maybe it's also the project that

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I'm in, but I feel like it makes
sense, right? 

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The code that it spits out, I 
feel like I'm reading way more 

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code than ever before. 
And I've also noticed that than 

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me reading code specifically, I 
get better at reading and 

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understanding code than actually
writing. 

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And even though I'm not writing 
as much, the skill of reading 

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code has always been there. 
It's just more on the forefront 

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now. 
And I actually enjoy doing that 

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as well, not just reviewing my 
own code, but reviewing other 

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people's code. 
And AI is just another artefact 

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of that that's. 
Absolutely. 

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And then AI that assists you in 
reviews, like Copilot AI, right?

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It's a great way of pointing out
places in code that you have to 

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pay more attention to, not 
necessarily agree with 

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everything that it would say, 
but it would point out to a 

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place where you probably would 
skim through and just say it's 

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fine. 
But then you would stop and read

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the comment and start thinking 
if that's actually a legitimate 

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issue or could be closed. 
So yeah, you. 

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Mentioned markdown files as 
well. 

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Well, what do you do? 
What do you put in the markdown 

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files within your project? 
We've got multiple markdown 

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files there. 
There is a main markdown cloud 

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dot MD and then we have an 
architecture overview, a 

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separate markdown analytics 
overview, issue reporting. 

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And in cloud dot MD we reference
to these files. 

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We say whenever you implement 
issue reporting, read 

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instructions from this file and 
and follow it. 

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Yeah. 
Would you recommend whenever you

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do AI assisted gotooling to set 
up kind of a similar structure 

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in Markdown I? 
Would definitely do that in the 

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future. 
I like it, it works for me. 

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I can definitely see how this 
could be an initial investment 

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that you have to do, but it pays
off. 

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For me, it pays off. 
For us as a team, it pays off. 

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What do you mean with that 
initial investment as in to set 

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that up? 
Yes, OK, you would definitely 

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need to guide, but you can write
them yourself. 

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You can generate them with cloud
as well, but it can hallucinate.

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It can put in things that do not
exist in the code base. 

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You have to be not fluent in the
code base but confident enough 

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to review these files and 
otherwise if it puts some 

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architecture patterns that you 
don't actually follow in 

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architecture dot MD, all of a 
sudden you start getting very 

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weird output so. 
These markdown files, are they 

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instructions or are they like 
also something that it 

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continuously adjusts and 
improves? 

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Continuous continuously adjusts 
and improves interesting. 

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And it's also a good kind of 
hygiene habit to whenever you 

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work on the feature. 
If you do this with cloud or 

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like whatever a a tool you 
mentioned, if there is any 

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relevant changes that you have 
to do in these markdown files, 

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please do. 
Yeah, interesting. 

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Especially with your experience 
coming as a mobile engineer, you

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were first very fluent with 
regards to the iOS ecosystem and

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now you're doing also, I'm 
assuming, Android ecosystem, 

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right? 
How is that knowledge kind of 

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crossed over? 
Which knowledge? 

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Sorry, the. 
Knowledge of the iOS ecosystem 

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and now the implementation on 
Android side. 

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So I know as as a mobile 
engineer and I did work with 

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Kotlin before, yeah, at Uber, I,
I wrote in Kotlin for half a 

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year. 
So it's not that I'm coming with

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0 knowledge, but definitely not 
a lot of knowledge that would 

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that that professional, 
professional Android engineers 

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would would have. 
So with cloud, it's a lot easier

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for me because I know how a 
feature should be done and 

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integrated from the high level 
perspective. 

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But I actually don't know SD KS 
and the Android D way of doing 

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things right. 
Some of them are very alien to 

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me and some patterns are, are 
very alien to me. 

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And then I lean onto Cloud Cloud
to actually write this thing for

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me. 
I will get to the bottom of it 

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and understand what it did, but 
it helps me to, you know, get 

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this over this initial heal of 
actually implementing the thing 

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that that that would work. 
Yeah. 

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00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:16,680
Does the knowledge transfer like
of the mobile ecosystem in in 

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00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:19,040
one let's say iOS versus 
Android? 

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To a degree, I guess you can, 
right? 

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You, you can follow some 
patterns even on the back end, 

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00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,600
right? 
It's general programming, right?

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00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:37,360
But I guess with UI and compose,
which are IS and Android UI 

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libraries, they follow somewhat 
similar principles. 

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00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:48,600
So it kind of transfers but not 
to 100%, no. 

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00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,800
For people that are new in 
mobile engineering at all, how 

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00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,920
would they get up and running 
fast with the tooling that's 

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00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,320
available nowadays? 
Because I feel like because you 

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have strong fundamentals, you 
can like, you know the patterns 

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00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:03,360
in in one ecosystem and then you
can see what is alien to you. 

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00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,400
But you have that frame of 
reference. 

200
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:07,720
And most people that are new, 
they will not have that. 

201
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,400
It is a very interesting 
question. 

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00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:17,440
I think that nowadays it's more 
important than ever to read and 

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00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,360
understand the fundamentals 
first, right? 

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00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,840
Not probably not leaning on AI 
to implement everything for you.

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00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,160
I know how tempting it is to 
vibe code. 

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00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,520
Your first IS application, so. 
Tempting. 

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00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:35,920
That's what I want to do. 
But then you you're missing out 

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00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,280
on on learning the actual thing 
and maybe in two years you 

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00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,960
wouldn't need to learn this. 
I don't know, but my take is 

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that you you have to set up for 
the mentals yourself. 

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00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,200
Yeah, when? 
You onboard new people, whether 

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it is either in the company or 
in the team. 

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00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,080
Do you also check for those 
fundamentals specifically? 

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00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,720
During interviews you mean? 
I would. 

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00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:06,880
So I didn't do many interviews 
lately, but I would definitely 

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00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,200
check for those fundamentals. 
Yes, and. 

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00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,000
Has the interview process 
evolved with AI tooling that's 

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00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,680
now available? 
Or how do you assess someone so?

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00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:20,000
In my view, classic interviews, 
they are kind of they should be 

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gone. 
I can definitely see how for 

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00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,440
bigger companies that would 
still be a way of understanding 

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00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,120
if the person is worthy of, of 
getting into the company. 

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00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:37,680
But for smaller companies, 
whenever a person comes to an 

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00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:40,600
interview, they would probably 
or engineering interview rather 

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00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,120
they would probably do some lead
coding for, I don't know, a 

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00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,320
month. 
Yeah, they would pass an 

227
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,920
interview and then they would 
completely forget everything 

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00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,000
they would do on lead coding 
because lead code, because all 

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00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,280
they would do is change colours 
on the button to drive this 

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00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,920
revenue growth. 0.1% right? 
Yeah, that sounds like booking 

231
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:09,280
apparently, yeah. 
So it is kind of pointless. 

232
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:14,680
And for smaller startups, I, I 
hear more and more stories when 

233
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:20,360
they basically do some initial 
filtering and then they offer a 

234
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,600
trial week for the, for the 
person to work with them to 

235
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,920
actually understand whether this
person is good to work with, 

236
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,040
right? 
Because that's the most 

237
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,480
important part, especially for 
smaller teams, for smaller 

238
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:39,520
start-ups, that you still have 
the cohesion that, that the 

239
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,320
other person has the work 
ethics. 

240
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:47,120
Not that they can, I don't know.
They know what a threaded binary

241
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:53,040
tree is. 
But yeah, I, I think that's the 

242
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:58,600
future of the thing because of, 
of interviews, because technical

243
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,320
part specifically, right? 
You would still probably want to

244
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,360
have some filtering in terms of 
like behavioural interviews and 

245
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:12,000
whatnot about for the technical 
part with AI you don't need that

246
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:18,440
much reversing. 
Linked linked list for a 

247
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,800
constant memory no. 
You don't have to have a top of 

248
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,680
mind. 
So our our interview process and

249
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,520
this is what I did 6-7 years ago
was like a take home assessment 

250
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,760
for 8 hours. 
Because indeed like you 

251
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,680
mentioned, company doesn't quite
believe that lead code and also 

252
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,080
in consultancy and software 
engineering doesn't translate to

253
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,920
what you do on a day-to-day. 
So the project is more in line 

254
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,960
with what you would do and it's 
actually a project and you can 

255
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,960
choose if you focus on front and
back end, if you actually deploy

256
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,560
your things, if you make it up 
and running, you get a lot of 

257
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,840
room to experiment. 
And then AI assisted go to and 

258
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,200
came around and we saw a lot of 
people within the funnel use 

259
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,200
that and a lot of conversation 
was OK, are we going to allow 

260
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:57,680
that? 
Or should we be explicit and 

261
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,720
say, don't use this? 
And then we made a conscious 

262
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,560
decision. 
People can use whatever tooling 

263
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,040
they want, but then be 
transparent about it. 

264
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,480
Actually say that you've done 
this and we'll have a different 

265
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,840
type of conversation because 
then we're going to talk about 

266
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,280
how well you understood what it 
was generated, right? 

267
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,160
If you can actually read it or 
if you maintained it or how you 

268
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,800
set up your project to be able 
to execute on this and what you 

269
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,560
think of the efficiencies or the
trade-offs there specifically. 

270
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,800
So within the same interview 
process, it's still the same 

271
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,400
assessment. 
We've kind of tailor made it 

272
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,920
towards people that do use AI 
assisted Co tooling and we've 

273
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,120
not even gotten to the point 
where we expect it. 

274
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,280
And when someone doesn't, then 
we feel like maybe you should 

275
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,880
because that's kind of where the
industry is going quite 

276
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,320
interestingly enough, looking. 
At your code, maybe you should. 

277
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:46,400
Not, not from that, that's 
right. 

278
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,600
But yeah, we're in the general 
sense, Yeah. 

279
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,080
I definitely like your take on 
or what you've seen other 

280
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,040
companies do in doing like a 
trial week. 

281
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,720
I don't know how possible that 
is with regards to like Dutch 

282
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,960
law and stuff. 
But in essence, if we disregard 

283
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,560
all of that, I would love to 
work with someone on a 

284
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,160
day-to-day for a week. 
And that form kind of the 

285
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,720
criteria of do I want to work 
with this person or not? 

286
00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:12,240
Because then we've already done 
it. 

287
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,319
Yeah. 
And I feel like the people that 

288
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,400
would go through a process like 
that, maybe it's hard to put 

289
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,960
myself in in the shoes because I
do go from kind of assessment or

290
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,000
from project to project more 
often. 

291
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,599
But I would feel more 
comfortable if I have a longer 

292
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,040
time to actually sew what I'm 
worth rather than a one hour 

293
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,160
kind of system design or a 
conversation or lead code thing.

294
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,560
Absolutely. 
It's a bit more lenient, yeah. 

295
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,880
And nowadays a lot of companies 
are opting for remote 

296
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,960
interviews. 
Yeah, not even on site where you

297
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:48,000
can casually talk to a person, 
where you can have lunch with 

298
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,080
them. 
And that's how how I was, how my

299
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,800
interview was a tuber. 
We we had lunch together with 

300
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,600
the team I was interviewing for.
And I guess that's a little bit 

301
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:04,520
of like, you have to spend time 
setting these things up, right, 

302
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:09,280
But then you are that little bit
more confident that the person 

303
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,400
is not, let's call them like, a 
bad person. 

304
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,280
Still, a week with a person in 
working context will give you a 

305
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,880
lot more insight than any kind 
of behavioural interview camp. 

306
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,280
Yeah. 
What specifically do you look 

307
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,000
towards or do you look for in 
the people that you work with or

308
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,840
collaborate with on a day-to-day
basis? 

309
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:32,640
Be nice, be. 
Nice. 

310
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,720
Yeah, that's. 
If you're nice to other people 

311
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:42,520
that can open doors that you you
wouldn't have open otherwise, 

312
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,400
right? 
Other people can go extra mile 

313
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,600
for you if you ask them 
something if you're nice to 

314
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:48,880
them. 
Yeah, right. 

315
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:54,520
And I think I read this article 
that Google made a study that 

316
00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,000
it's the ultimate key to to 
working together. 

317
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,840
If you're nice to other people, 
you're successful, Your team is 

318
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,760
successful, maybe. 
It's the way I grew up. 

319
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,560
But for me that's have you been 
in an environment where people 

320
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,560
are not nice to each other? 
Because I do think that I mean, 

321
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,800
we're knowledge workers and if 
you have in depth knowledge and 

322
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,240
expertise within a certain 
topic, you might be arrogant and

323
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,840
that might kind of take away 
from your kindness towards 

324
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,520
others. 
That's the the thing that I've 

325
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:29,640
seen. 
I can definitely relate to that,

326
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,960
that people who have strong 
opinions, and sometimes I do 

327
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,720
have strong opinions. 
It's not that I'm, you know, 

328
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,160
like a plushy you go with. 
A win, yeah. 

329
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:47,080
But you definitely need to know 
where your opinion matters, 

330
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,600
right? 
And then whenever, if, if you 

331
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:56,160
are making an argument out of 
every single point, then your 

332
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,240
argument kind of diminishes, 
right? 

333
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:04,440
Your, your opinion, you will 
struggle to make a point, if you

334
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,560
know what I mean. 
If, if that makes sense that 

335
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:11,640
everybody would see you as a 
person who is always against 

336
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,560
some things, who always wants to
things be their way. 

337
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,680
Yeah, you cannot. 
Differentiate between what is 

338
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,480
important exactly. 
Yeah, exactly. 

339
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:26,080
But then whenever you are OK 
with, you know, one, one of the 

340
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,520
things that I love to follow is 
disagree and commit. 

341
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,960
If I'm in the minority, if I see
that other people, smart people,

342
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,040
they, they have different 
opinion. 

343
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:42,440
I'm fine saying, OK, I'm, I'm, 
I'm committing to following your

344
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,000
path. 
I'm I'm fine with that. 

345
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,440
But then whenever I actually 
feel something strongly about, 

346
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,360
then I will try to convince and 
other people would listen 

347
00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:59,160
because they're not used to me 
doing this kind of thing, right?

348
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,440
So I think that's that's also 
important to pick your battles, 

349
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,640
yeah. 
I feel like I used to be very 

350
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,320
idealistic and like you kind of 
make a point out of a lot of 

351
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,560
things, and now I'm trying to be
more indeed, when does it 

352
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,600
matter? 
Is this going to be a key 

353
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,120
differentiating factor? 
And I understand disagree and 

354
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:20,720
commit. 
I feel like if you read about 

355
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,760
it, you will understand disagree
and commit, but understanding 

356
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,760
and behaving according to that 
is very different. 

357
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,800
Absolutely. 
I've also seen people say, yes, 

358
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,280
I agree with you, but and then 
the butt completely like just 

359
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:32,600
takes it out of the water from 
me. 

360
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:35,360
That kind of undermines it 
completely. 

361
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,520
And especially within a team 
where you have a lot of people 

362
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,200
with very great skills. 
Let's let's start with that. 

363
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,000
But also because of that very 
interesting opinions, 

364
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,200
discussions can just go and 
snowball. 

365
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,760
And you do need a specific 
either person or a team mindset 

366
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,720
that just says, OK, these 
discussions are no longer 

367
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,720
valuable. 
We need to cut it and we need to

368
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,600
make a decision and we need to 
go for with that decision until 

369
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,200
we find otherwise, basically, 
which is also fine, yeah. 

370
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:09,000
No, absolutely. 
And another thing that that I, I

371
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:14,560
learnt in my previous jobs is 
that this state of analysis 

372
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,080
paralysis where different 
people, smart people in the same

373
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:19,680
room, they cannot find the 
agreement. 

374
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,800
So most senior person has to 
stand up and say, OK, we're 

375
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,560
doing this. 
I see that this is not going 

376
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,920
anywhere, right? 
We are going to discuss this 

377
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,520
today and the same with the same
passion, we're going to discuss 

378
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,040
this tomorrow and in five days, 
nothing's going to change. 

379
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,080
So we just follow this path and 
we disagree and commit. 

380
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,640
Gotcha. 
You mentioned kindness in one of

381
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,960
the things that you're looking 
for, being nice to each other. 

382
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:46,520
What other things are you 
looking for? 

383
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,960
I guess that well, obviously 
like being smart and being 

384
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,000
proficient in in what you're 
doing. 

385
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:05,000
On the other hand, I understand 
that some things, you know, at, 

386
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:10,160
at Uber, my manager, he used to 
say thing that that stuck with 

387
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,880
me probably forever is we are 
hiring people for their 

388
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,920
strengths, not lack of 
weaknesses and trying to 

389
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,680
identify those strengths during 
interview or trial week or 

390
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:30,160
whatever you're following. 
I guess that's one of the one of

391
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,640
the key traits of of any 
interviewer. 

392
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,720
And these strengths, they can be
anything, right? 

393
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:45,640
And they actually have to be 
different because you, you want 

394
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,120
to have a variety of people, 
different people in your team. 

395
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:56,400
If you are hiring 10 little 
copies of yourself, you are only

396
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,200
going that far. 
Yeah, as, as I think it's Steve 

397
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,160
Jobs who who used to say if you 
want to go fast, go alone. 

398
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,320
If you want to go far, go 
together. 

399
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,960
But together. 
If if you're hiring copies of 

400
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,240
yourself, you're not, you know, 
you're still alone. 

401
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,120
Yeah, in my books, I mean. 
Me as a a little kid, that made 

402
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,040
complete sense to me because if 
I could copy myself, I would go 

403
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,920
and be more effective. 
And nowadays as an adult, I'm 

404
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,200
like, yeah, then you don't 
accommodate for any of the the 

405
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,320
downsides that you have. 
How well aware are you of the 

406
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,760
strengths that you have, 
specifically you as an engineer?

407
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,200
Because if I were to, if someone
were to ask me what are your 

408
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,600
strengths, I would definitely 
have to think about it for a bit

409
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,120
longer before I can say this is 
really what I'm good at. 

410
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,160
Yeah, I would definitely need 
to. 

411
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,320
Yeah, I think about a bit 
longer, but I've. 

412
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,600
Talked to a lot of people and 
specifically about you, and they

413
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,160
do say you're a great engineer, 
which I think is quite, quite 

414
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:57,240
cool. 
I would need to think longer. 

415
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,240
No problem. 
Where do you see the mobile and 

416
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,480
specifically the app industry 
going that has it changed with 

417
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,680
regards to AI and some of the 
apps that are out there? 

418
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,680
I feel like a lot of people are 
creating little startups and 

419
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,000
then their artifact is an app 
that launches on the App Store, 

420
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,360
more so nowadays than 
previously. 

421
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,560
But if I were to start my 
career, would a mobile engineer 

422
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,520
still be a good career choice 
from your perspective? 

423
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:27,200
I think engineering in general 
is probably not the best career 

424
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:33,920
choice nowadays given the amount
of of junior roles that are open

425
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,920
and I have no idea how it's 
going to go. 

426
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,080
But looking at how it is now, 
maybe in 10 years engineering is

427
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:52,920
going to be very sparse. 
Yeah, as as a field, but yeah, 

428
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:58,120
it's it's such a difficult 
question with the with with this

429
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:02,080
pace, with the pace that the 
world is is changing every 

430
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,840
month. 
Yeah, I would refrain for from 

431
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,240
giving any recommendations 
that's for that regard. 

432
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:15,600
And I definitely feel very well,
not bad, but like, it's scary to

433
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,120
be a graduate engineer nowadays,
I think, yeah. 

434
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,200
I didn't expect you to go on the
side of there might not be like 

435
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,200
I, I understand there's not as 
many job opportunities as let's 

436
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,280
say COVID where I think that 
might be the peak with reverse 

437
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,360
the job opportunity that we had.
And now definitely when you talk

438
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:35,760
about peaks and dips, we are 
definitely on the lowest side. 

439
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,680
I think with reverse the job 
opportunity and maybe I'm 

440
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,880
hopeful, maybe I'm naive, but I 
do think skills will evolve and 

441
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,520
there might be more emergent 
roles, even though a lot of the 

442
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,680
things that we do day-to-day, 
they are getting automated. 

443
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:49,880
Absolutely. 
And. 

444
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:55,600
I think I, I love an AI take. 
I don't remember who who said 

445
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,520
that, but AI, the, the, the 
saying goes that AI is not going

446
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,720
to take your job. 
The person who knows how to use 

447
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,240
AI better than you are, they 
will, Yeah. 

448
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:13,320
So definitely the industry is 
evolving towards more AI usage. 

449
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,000
And if you're not using AI now, 
probably you're missing out on 

450
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:22,600
something that in the future 
could be pivotal for for your 

451
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,760
career. 
But well, you said that there 

452
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,360
are a lot less job opportunities
nowadays. 

453
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:35,600
But there was actually a study I
think from Harvard that there 

454
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,440
are a lot more, well, not a lot,
but there is a rise of senior 

455
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:45,640
plus opportunities jobs, but a 
huge deep in in junior, junior 

456
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,280
roles. 
So it's much easier to get hired

457
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:54,760
as a senior plus engineer. 
Yeah, yeah, interesting talking.

458
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,480
About career perspective 
specifically, I know you have an

459
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,280
interesting story and how you 
got into mobile. 

460
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,080
Let's let's start there. 
How did you get into mobile in 

461
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:10,120
the first place? 
I think it's for for everybody. 

462
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:18,680
They would not be able to 
pinpoint the moment in life that

463
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,640
that well, not for everybody, 
but most people would not be 

464
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,880
able to pinpoint the the moment 
in life. 

465
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:32,160
For me, it was very clear. 
My manager back in 2008 or not 

466
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,360
2000, 2006 I think it was, they 
came in into a room and they 

467
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:42,720
said our company got a got a 
contract for Mac OS application 

468
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,840
and we didn't have Mac OS 
engineers. 

469
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,400
So they had, you know, Mac mini 
in in their hand and they put it

470
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,920
on my desk and said you are 
going to be our Mac OS engineer.

471
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,400
Yeah. 
That's it. 

472
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,840
It's you. 
And yeah, I, I was surprised to 

473
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:06,400
say the least. 
But yeah, I, I learned, I 

474
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,400
learned with, I made a lot of 
mistakes along the way. 

475
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:16,000
And obviously there were no, no 
tooling that is similar to what 

476
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,520
we have now. 
And documentation was a lot, a 

477
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:23,920
lot more sparse. 
I had to learn Objective C on 

478
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,960
developer.apple.com and it 
wasn't great to say the least. 

479
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,560
So I made my fair share of 
mistakes and some of the 

480
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,560
mistakes were really bad for the
company that I I worked for. 

481
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:45,120
They, they lost the contract 
that they came that got me into 

482
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,760
into macros because of the 
mistakes I made. 

483
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:55,640
But also kind of when iOS iPhone
SDK, it was called when it came 

484
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,920
out. 
I didn't have to learn objective

485
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,560
C Everybody was struggling with 
those square brackets and trying

486
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:09,840
to understand why, Why the hell 
having Neil or null in as as a 

487
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,080
as a pointer to NULL, Why can we
send messages to it and why the 

488
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,640
app is not crashing. 
It's just undefined behaviour. 

489
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,720
And I was, I was OK with that. 
I've been doing that for two 

490
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,640
years at that point. 
And obviously there were Mac OS 

491
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:31,160
engineers out there, a lot of 
them, but not nearly as many as,

492
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,680
as, as the amount of people who 
wanted to get into IS 

493
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,680
engineering, iPhone engineering.
So yeah, I was lucky enough to 

494
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:48,080
have this experience under my 
belt and I I also had quite some

495
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,400
experience with mobile at that 
point. 

496
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:56,280
So iPhone SDKI think it came out
in 2009 and I was doing Mac OS. 

497
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,800
I also was doing mobile Windows 
Mobile. 

498
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:06,600
Symbian was a UAQII wrote apps 
for for those obviously not in 

499
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,080
Objective C, but it's still 
mobile, right. 

500
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,120
So from the same ish area. 
So I was aware of some of the 

501
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,600
constraints that you have to 
keep in mind while developing 

502
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,920
for mobile, yeah. 
Do you think the mobile 

503
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,920
industry, specifically if you're
a mobile engineer, you will more

504
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,480
so work towards consumer facing 
technology like in the consumer 

505
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,800
facing domain? 
Because I feel like as a back 

506
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,520
end engineer, I've worked in B 
to B settings and then people 

507
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,320
learn. 
I actually want to work towards 

508
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,040
something that is more consumer 
facing. 

509
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,760
I feel like if you're a mobile 
engineer, apps typically go to 

510
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,840
the consumers. 
Yeah, no. 

511
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,760
Absolutely. 
And honestly, I as a mobile 

512
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,000
engineer and I know people are 
different and, and the mobile 

513
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,800
engineers are obviously 
different as well. 

514
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,320
But for me, it's very important 
to have something that I work on

515
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,520
have in front of people and a 
lot of people, right? 

516
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,840
I definitely learned my lesson 
when I was working on an app 

517
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,840
that was not really needed by 
anyone and the company was 

518
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,040
developing it just because they 
wanted to have presence on the 

519
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,240
App Store because competitors 
do. 

520
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:24,360
And it was tough to realise that
you put so, so much effort into 

521
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,480
building something that people 
don't need. 

522
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:33,680
So every single company after 
that one, they were very 

523
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,440
consumer facing and moreover, 
they their mobile app was the 

524
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:39,880
core of their business. 
Yeah. 

525
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,720
So you actively sought out for 
apps that made impact for the 

526
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,960
consumers and where mobile was a
core part of the business it's. 

527
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,160
Not that I sought that, but I 
actively reject companies or 

528
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:57,000
don't start a conversation with 
companies that that don't do 

529
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,800
that basically and. 
That you still have that same 

530
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,920
mindset like that is the the 
type of company and the industry

531
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,000
you want to work in. 
Absolutely, yes, yes. 

532
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,440
So this is consumer face. 
I understand that some B2B apps 

533
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,720
might also have the same, well, 
probably they won't say have the

534
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,520
same scale in terms of the 
amount of people, but in terms 

535
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:24,320
of usefulness that every 
employee of the company would 

536
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,400
have this thing installed and 
they would open it regularly for

537
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,560
whatever reason, right. 
But if you have an app like work

538
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:37,320
day on on your phone, right, 
that's something why would you 

539
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,800
have it on your phone? 
They do have a mobile app. 

540
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,680
They do. 
And I did have it just to get 

541
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,080
push notifications when my, when
my vacation request was 

542
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,280
approved. 
And that's pretty much it. 

543
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,480
I I never. 
Had like a messaging queue, 

544
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:59,480
yeah. 
So that again, not to not to say

545
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,520
that it's not needed, but for me
it is way more important. 

546
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,440
And maybe behind the scenes, the
technology that is powering this

547
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,840
app is amazing and it's super 
interesting to work on. 

548
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:16,239
But for me, there is not enough 
motivation to to do work on on 

549
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,679
such kind of yeah, yeah. 
I like that a lot. 

550
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,679
Like I feel like when it comes 
to an industry or a technology 

551
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:25,760
stack, I don't have the same 
level of clarity yet where I go 

552
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,719
to a company and I say this is 
really what I want to be working

553
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,639
on. 
And I feel like you had that, 

554
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:33,280
you had that throughout the 
learnings, even though by chance

555
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,000
you were kind of the person that
was brought forward to learn 

556
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,960
about this technology. 
And then through that you came 

557
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,679
into mobile specifically, you 
still found this industry or 

558
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:46,040
this type of company or you 
rejected any other. 

559
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,760
So there was no other option 
basically. 

560
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,639
So I love that amount of 
clarity. 

561
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,880
I think I the sooner you have 
that, the better it is for 

562
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:56,480
probably your, your feeling of 
fulfillment, because then you 

563
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,720
can get to that position and 
you're just by virtue of you 

564
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:01,880
being in that position, the 
position that fulfills you, 

565
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:03,880
you're motivated. 
Absolutely. 

566
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,080
Yeah. 
Yeah, I like. 

567
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,560
That and Uber was a big part in 
that, I'm assuming. 

568
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:09,600
Absolutely, because Uber, when 
it comes to their mobile 

569
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,320
presence, it's like all in. 
Yeah, ubiquitous and. 

570
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:21,680
I think I, I was lucky enough to
get into Uber in 2016, right 

571
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,160
before they started the big 
rewrite of, of their mobile app.

572
00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:29,600
And it is, it was a huge 
undertaking. 

573
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,600
You can imagine that for the 
company that is that the mobile 

574
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,480
app is the core of their 
business, the only thing that 

575
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,040
brings revenue, right? 
And then all of a sudden you 

576
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,680
start to rewrite this thing from
scratch. 

577
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,560
It is a risky move. 
And they wanted to do it very 

578
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,400
fast. 
The initial estimation was to 

579
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,960
rewrite it in three months. 
Millions of lines of code, 

580
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,400
hundreds of engineers, mobile 
engineers. 

581
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,960
Yeah, was was crazy. 
But then it gave me so much 

582
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,240
experience with how how those 
kind of things could be 

583
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:09,920
navigated and actually also 
understanding that rewrite is 

584
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,520
not always the answer. 
OK, right? 

585
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:13,800
Why? 
Why is it so? 

586
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,800
What did it not fix in the end? 
What can you learn from that? 

587
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,840
Experience it. 
Fixed a lot it it broke a lot of

588
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,960
people. 
In that sense, yeah, I mean. 

589
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,280
It's it's not even a joke, 
'cause people got burned out and

590
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,160
there's straight up left. 
Yeah, but. 

591
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:30,320
You were not one of these 
people. 

592
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:37,800
That's another thing that I have
very strong opinion about, that 

593
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,840
I try to separate my personal 
life and my work life. 

594
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,080
Yeah. 
And definitely when I get very 

595
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,240
involved into projects I can do 
over time, it's it's not a big 

596
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:53,960
problem for me, but I'm always 
aware where my line is right. 

597
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,920
I will not work during night 
time. 

598
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,560
Like, yeah, even if I'm super 
into it, I know that I future 

599
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,720
Pasha is going to regret this. 
So I'm not doing that. 

600
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:11,040
And I saw a lot of people who 
burned themselves to to the 

601
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,240
ground just trying to push this 
thing out. 

602
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:19,480
And I understand probably that I
had the luxury of having my 

603
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,640
approach for the expense of 
these people, right? 

604
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,720
Because they were doing work. 
I don't know if you could be 

605
00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:30,240
efficient in like 3:00 AM in the
night, right. 

606
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:37,080
But on the other hand, the 
company would survive if the 

607
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,320
project would be postponed for 
three more weeks. 

608
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,840
Yeah, it's it would have been 
fine. 

609
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,640
Yeah. 
Exactly, that's why I don't like

610
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,320
the word deadline. 
No one ever dies when the 

611
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,840
deadline has passed basically, 
so things will move on. 

612
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,400
Yeah, probably you lose a lot of
money, but yeah, that's that's. 

613
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:56,960
Money is different though. 
No one dies. 

614
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,160
I hope. 
Otherwise it's the wrong type of

615
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,600
business to be in. 
Yeah, well, talk to me about 

616
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,360
that experience specifically. 
I'm assuming that with an 

617
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,520
engineering culture, at least at
the time that Uber had, I know a

618
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,080
lot of great engineers that come
from that. 

619
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,720
You're going to have very 
interesting discussions on what 

620
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:16,760
do we do, how do we optimize or 
which decisions actually 

621
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,840
mattered. 
Do you have a specific topic in 

622
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,240
mind where you were like, this 
is actually where I had a very 

623
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,320
strong opinion on. 
This is what we needed to do. 

624
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,280
So from the times of the 
rewrite, I probably cannot 

625
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,760
recall such things because I 
just joined the company. 

626
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,920
Yeah. 
And it was really funny because 

627
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,400
I was interviewing in April and 
I specifically asked it was 

628
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,000
2016. 
So Swift was already there for I

629
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,360
think a couple of years at that 
point, but it wasn't mature, 

630
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,400
right? 
And I asked during the 

631
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,680
interview, do you use Swift? 
And the answer was no, we are 

632
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,000
doing Objective C percent. 
Swift is not mature enough. 

633
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:06,120
It cannot support our scale. 
And then I joined 1st of June 

634
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,280
and by the end of June, we got a
message from CTO saying we are 

635
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,360
rewriting this thing in Swift. 
That's quick, that's really 

636
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,640
quick. 
So, yeah, that was, that was 

637
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,000
fun. 
But it's so that's for you to 

638
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,400
understand that. 
I was in the company for a for a

639
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,880
month at the point where rewrite
started. 

640
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:30,640
And at that point we were all 
hands heads down actually 

641
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,440
executing. 
There was no time to understand 

642
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,720
what's going on. 
Yeah. 

643
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:37,920
Exactly. 
Wow. 

644
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,600
Yeah. 
Any other specific time in your 

645
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,800
experience at Uber where you 
were like, OK, this was really 

646
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,760
an opinion that I had that I had
to push for because I'm curious 

647
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,280
how you did that. 
So much, much later after we did

648
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,360
the rewrite of the of the app 
and the team in Amsterdam, we 

649
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,120
were focusing mainly on 
payments. 

650
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:05,920
We saw a a huge inefficiency in 
terms of integrating of the of 

651
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,400
the payment framework into new 
apps and Uber started to acquire

652
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:11,960
new businesses more and more 
often. 

653
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,720
So we had to integrate the 
framework into new apps. 

654
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,240
And Long story short, we 
delivered the new new SDK which 

655
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:24,000
was much much more efficient and
pleasant to use. 

656
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,840
But I had a big struggle 
convincing people that we have 

657
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,520
to migrate existing usages of 
the payment framework of the old

658
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,400
one onto a new one. 
New approach which was nicer, 

659
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:42,640
more efficient, allows for more 
monitoring, alerting and and 

660
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,120
what not for your specific use 
case for example. 

661
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:52,880
But since this doesn't bring any
any revenue right there is, you 

662
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,600
cannot put any money on these 
kind of migrations. 

663
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:01,240
Metrics have to actually remain 
stable for the migration to to 

664
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:02,480
to be success. 
So you're. 

665
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,520
Net neutral exactly. 
Yeah, or negative, because you 

666
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,320
are actually investing 
engineering time into that. 

667
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,040
It was really, really hard to 
convince people that this is 

668
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,000
something we actually have to 
focus on because now we have two

669
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,640
different ways of integrating 
payments into the app. 

670
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:23,240
How do we explain engineers from
other teams which way they 

671
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:25,360
should use? 
Yeah, because they used to the 

672
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,920
old way. 
They've been doing that for, I 

673
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,840
don't know, four years now. 
What do we do? 

674
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:37,680
So we had to actually go and 
educate people on what money SDK

675
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,440
is, how to use it, what are the 
benefits. 

676
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,160
We had had to sell this to other
teams. 

677
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:50,960
So they would either themselves 
put migration onto the road map 

678
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:56,600
or we would do that for them, 
OK, Which in the end turned out 

679
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,840
to be the vast majority of of 
cases. 

680
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,200
And then I had to convince our 
leadership that this is worthy, 

681
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,240
that we have to do that. 
Gotcha. 

682
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,680
Yeah. 
How long did that take from your

683
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,280
idea of OK, we have to do this 
to eventually having people 

684
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:12,720
convinced that this is the way 
to go? 

685
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,920
So the idea of of the SDK 
itself, it was the end of 2019. 

686
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,720
The implementation took I think 
a year, the year to actually 

687
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:26,240
hide all the complexity behind 
the nicer API. 

688
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:29,800
So first of all, to see what the
nicer API is going to look like 

689
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:35,280
and then hide it. 
And after that it was like 2021 

690
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,320
and the migration is still not 
done as far as I know. 

691
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,880
Gotcha. 
It's it's a big organizations 

692
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,840
for you. 
It's really, really hard to 

693
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,720
convince people to do things and
sometimes they use and abuse 

694
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,680
your SDK in ways that make it a 
lot harder to maintain in the 

695
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:57,760
future. 
Exactly. 

696
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:04,040
And that's why I personally am a
huge advocate of of hiding as 

697
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,840
much API as possible, making it 
private, basically not not 

698
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,920
allowing to do anything from the
outside as much as possible, and

699
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,320
opening it up only if there is a
strong use case. 

700
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:17,720
Yeah. 
Yeah, you get that. 

701
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,160
That's really hard when it comes
to them because I'm now working 

702
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,000
in a landscape where we're 
building a platform and we're 

703
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,360
trying to integrate with a lot 
of mobile applications through 

704
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,360
SDKS. 
And they also have kind of 

705
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,640
similar approach where not 
everything is exposed. 

706
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,000
But yeah, circling back to what 
you mentioned, this was really a

707
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,760
topic where you would you 
compromise on this or? 

708
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,160
You wouldn't really compromise 
on this. 

709
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,320
I would not compromise on this. 
I knew that. 

710
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,680
Well, first of all, that was my 
baby. 

711
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:50,160
The the thing that that got 
started like I started from the 

712
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,160
well, Collier. 
We there were a bunch of people,

713
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,920
but I was among the the people 
who started this thing from from

714
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:03,280
zero, essentially. 
And I knew that this will bring 

715
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:08,120
a lot of benefits along the way 
and in the future. 

716
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:15,240
And keeping two ways of doing 
the same thing is not it, it's 

717
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,240
not sustainable. 
And I've. 

718
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,640
So The thing is that I've been 
working at that point for five 

719
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,480
years at the company, right. 
And usually when something, when

720
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,680
people from other teams have 
questions, they would come to 

721
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,600
either me or my colleagues. 
And we had an influx of of 

722
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,960
messages all the time. 
Hey, how I do this? 

723
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:37,240
Yeah. 
Why is this not working? 

724
00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:39,360
Why is that? 
Well, because you're doing the 

725
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,360
old stuff like my great place. 
And then you wouldn't have those

726
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,320
questions. 
No, we need to move fast. 

727
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:46,680
We need to this. 
Is it? 

728
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,040
But we don't have a choice. 
We don't. 

729
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,360
Have a choice. 
And then we had to migrate this,

730
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,440
this case. 
And then all of a sudden, oh, 

731
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,200
that was easier. 
Like it's so much nicer to use. 

732
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,520
Yeah, all of a sudden was. 
This one of the reasons why in 

733
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,200
the end you ended up leaving 
because the migration is still 

734
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,480
not finished to this day. 
You've moved on since? 

735
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,520
Well. 
Definitely not because of the 

736
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:10,280
migration, not the single thing.
No, no, there, there was no one 

737
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:15,280
particular reason. 
There were like a lot of little 

738
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:22,480
things, for example, a stupid 
reason that it was 2022. 

739
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,680
So COVID just kind of started to
end. 

740
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,400
And I've been working from the 
office in next to Amstel 

741
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,640
station. 
It was quite close to my house. 

742
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,840
So I, I had to bike like 20 
minutes. 

743
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,680
And Uber announced that they are
opening this new and shiny 

744
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,520
office, which they plan to move 
in 2024. 

745
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,400
Yeah. 
And it was so far away. 

746
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,280
And I got so annoyed that they, 
they started to brag about 

747
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,800
accessibility. 
This office is so nice. 

748
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,760
It's so close to, well, not 
everything. 

749
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:58,800
Else. 
Yeah, everyone else. 

750
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,880
So, and again, I'm not saying 
that this was the reason, 

751
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:08,480
obviously, but it was one, one 
of the things that that tipped 

752
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:14,080
me over another one that it's 
been 6 years at that point when 

753
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,720
when I left and it's definitely 
I, it felt like the right time 

754
00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:22,040
to move on. 
I found myself in meetings I 

755
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,640
felt that I had no business 
with, Like, why am I there? 

756
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,920
Only because I knew how 
historically things were 

757
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:34,440
evolving and how they were made 
and why they're made a certain 

758
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,120
way. 
Because of your knowledge and 

759
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,840
history. 
Yeah, basically I saw the 

760
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,040
payment framework built from the
ground up and then being 

761
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:48,920
migrated to to the next Money 
SDK and I knew the reasons why 

762
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,480
certain things were done in 
certain ways or shortcuts have 

763
00:46:52,480 --> 00:47:00,720
been made so I understood why I 
was needed or sometimes I didn't

764
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:02,040
understand. 
Fair enough. 

765
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:05,640
Yeah. 
But yeah, it was definitely not 

766
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,360
something that that I was very 
interested in. 

767
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,720
And some people are completely 
fine with this kind of kind of 

768
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,840
work, I would say. 
But for me, I, I love to build 

769
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,320
things. 
I love to to be in engineer, not

770
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:26,960
like a meeting engineer. 
Gotcha. 

771
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:28,320
Yeah, you actually want to 
create. 

772
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,520
Yes, not just makes sense. 
I don't think I would be happy 

773
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,920
being a historian of the code 
base. 

774
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,760
Like explaining why we have 
things but maybe once, maybe 

775
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,240
twice, but not continuously. 
Like as a daily or a weekly 

776
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:43,320
thing. 
And you know, I found myself 

777
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,640
explaining certain things over 
and over again. 

778
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:51,120
And this I definitely now see a 
lot more value than I saw back 

779
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,160
then. 
Actually, I see for example, 

780
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,480
Aceo of my new company is 
repeating himself all the time. 

781
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:03,640
And I understand like all of a 
sudden there is this light bulb.

782
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,760
They're doing this to make sure 
that they convey the message 

783
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:14,480
that it's well received. 
Because for me, it felt stupid. 

784
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,440
I've already said this thing 
once. 

785
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,960
Like why do I need to do it 
twice, twice, four times? 

786
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,320
That's such an engineering 
mindset. 

787
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:24,240
Yeah, I agree. 
Yeah. 

788
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,280
Actually, it is so, so useful 
because some details they people

789
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,920
don't pay attention because 
that's not their field, that's 

790
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:38,800
not what they are interested in.
And then you have to put it out 

791
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,120
there multiple times to make 
sure that it's actually 

792
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,920
understood this. 
Is what I relearned in product 

793
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,400
and maybe it's also the the type
of person I am. 

794
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,440
I when it comes to product and 
why we do things. 

795
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,360
I will take all the time you 
need. 

796
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,280
I have all the patience to help 
you understand why we do things 

797
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,200
because I think from an 
engineering standpoint that is 

798
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,720
incredibly valuable to 
understand why we do things so 

799
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:04,960
you can execute better. 
You can think along from a 

800
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,840
different perspective in 
product. 

801
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,920
I really took as much time as we
needed and I mentioned that to 

802
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,440
every person in the team. 
Don't don't worry about asking 

803
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:14,960
again. 
I will sit down and we'll 

804
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,160
explain and we'll go through it.
Also because the domain was more

805
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,440
complex, it was in 
sustainability. 

806
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,320
It had to do with ESG and 
metrics and KP is and I think 

807
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,680
that is valuable. 
I want that in my product person

808
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,520
as well. 
So the fact that you see it in 

809
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:31,360
your CEO, I think that's quite, 
quite admirable that they keep 

810
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,680
doing that, yeah. 
I think it's a great thing and 

811
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,920
understanding the why is is 
actually was a revelation for 

812
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,200
me. 
And you know, for me as as an 

813
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:46,440
engineer, one of the most I, I 
wouldn't say powerful, but one 

814
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:54,160
of the one of the things that 
I'm not that I keep saying, 

815
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,800
yeah, I'm sorry. 
I don't understand. 

816
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,920
If something I don't understand,
I would call it out. 

817
00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:05,200
I call it out and ask the other 
person to explain to me that I 

818
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:12,480
actually actually understand if,
if that's something that is out 

819
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,760
of my field. 
And they would, you know, go 

820
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:20,600
through some things that seem 
relevant, but then I have no 

821
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,560
idea what they're talking about.
It's OK to not to understand 

822
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,480
something. 
It's OK to say it out loud and 

823
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,160
ask them to explain because one 
of the things that people 

824
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:34,120
actually love to do is to 
explain something they know. 

825
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,080
Right? 
And if you say I don't 

826
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,560
understand, they would love to 
explain this to you. 

827
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,240
Yeah. 
At least I hope so. 

828
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,880
I've, I've also seen people 
where they said I've already 

829
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,640
explained and then they they'd 
lose it. 

830
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,040
I really shouldn't be like this,
like having an understanding. 

831
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,200
And also, especially early on, I
felt bad saying I didn't 

832
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,680
understand things. 
Then I realized it's obvious I 

833
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,560
was a junior in the team. 
Like it makes sense for me to 

834
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,880
not understand things. 
The worst thing I could do is 

835
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,360
saying I got it. 
Well, I actually didn't get it. 

836
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,840
Yeah, like that's, that's even 
worse. 100% yeah. 

837
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,400
You worked in payments at Uber. 
Have you always worked in? 

838
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,680
Because I think payments is 
quite a crucial domain when 

839
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,320
we're talking about kind of app,
it's how it makes money. 

840
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,600
So probably it needs to work 
quite well, yeah. 

841
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,360
Have you always worked in more 
crucial sides of the app there 

842
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:29,240
beyond as well? 
It's it was mostly payments. 

843
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:36,840
Yeah, We did develop a kind of 
React Native kind of thing 

844
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:43,760
framework because so initial 
struggle was the inefficiency 

845
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:48,760
that we saw that in different 
countries, drivers whenever they

846
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:54,240
want to fill in their bank 
account requisites, whatever 

847
00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:58,000
it's called, they would have to 
fill in different forms in 

848
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,920
different countries, right? 
The regulations were different. 

849
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:07,120
So it was initially done on the 
back end, the rendering part, 

850
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,840
and it was done in code. 
So basically you have to be an 

851
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,720
engineer to add a new field onto
this form. 

852
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:24,920
And we wanted to make it easier.
So we wanted to actually build a

853
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,160
system that would resemble React
Native. 

854
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,800
We were lucky enough that was a 
person who actually built React 

855
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:36,840
Native at Facebook. 
They knew what, what kind of 

856
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:42,560
inefficiencies that system had. 
So they came with their this 

857
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:47,280
knowledge in at at at Uber, in 
in the company and helped to 

858
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,840
shape this thing. 
But for me personally, this 

859
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:55,640
journey ended pretty quickly. 
I had to get back to to 

860
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,920
payments. 
I got a an offer I couldn't 

861
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:07,280
refuse from my director. 
So yeah, it's it was mostly 

862
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:08,440
payments. 
Gotcha. 

863
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:10,400
Yeah. 
Have you worked a lot with 

864
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,760
cross-platform technologies like
React Native and stuff? 

865
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:16,200
No, no, no, no. 
I heard that TikTok open source,

866
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:19,760
their framework, it's called 
links where they they fixed some

867
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:21,440
of the inefficiencies of React 
Native. 

868
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:23,080
I. 
Did hear about that? 

869
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:24,480
I didn't. 
Didn't try it. 

870
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,600
Yeah, yeah. 
Because I'm interested, why has 

871
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,040
it been that you've always 
worked with the native 

872
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:34,560
technologies respectively? 
Mainly because React Native 

873
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:38,960
doesn't feel native and that's 
something that we tried to fix 

874
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:45,400
with with our framework at Uber 
and I think we achieved pretty 

875
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,960
good result. 
I say we I was not in the team 

876
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:52,360
when when they achieved very 
good results with it. 

877
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,240
Unfortunately, they struggled a 
lot with adoption within the 

878
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:59,360
company, so they had to cancel 
the project. 

879
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:08,200
But the technology was amazing 
and for me none of the back then

880
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:12,360
modern cross-platform 
technologies felt native. 

881
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:17,400
And I love beautiful interfaces,
I love snappy animations, I love

882
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:22,800
good interactions that would not
look like Android interface on 

883
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,200
IS app or vice versa. 
Right. 

884
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,960
You sometimes you just have to 
go native. 

885
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,200
Yes, there are parts of 
applications that are less 

886
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,880
important, less relevant. 
So you can, but you still have 

887
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,320
to have them. 
So you probably can do them with

888
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:43,600
with React Native and the like, 
but you have to be very picky if

889
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,080
you want to deliver great user 
experience. 

890
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:49,840
Do you think nowadays the 
landscape has evolved to where 

891
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,320
cross-platform technologies have
bridged that gap a little 

892
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,720
better? 
Maybe, but as I said, I didn't 

893
00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:59,080
didn't dive too deep into it 
lately. 

894
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,800
Yeah, probably, probably 
everything evolves, right. 

895
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,600
And I guess a lot of people, 
it's not only me who has this, 

896
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:12,160
you know, idea that 
cross-platform is actually not 

897
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:16,200
nice. 
So that yeah, I I see that being

898
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,480
fixed, but I didn't didn't try 
it. 

899
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,760
No, no worries. 
I'm then wondering, since you've

900
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,000
really had this opinion of I 
want to be at companies where 

901
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:29,840
mobiles core to their business, 
do you see yourself striving 

902
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,400
away from that or is this really
just the career path for you 

903
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:39,200
also towards the future? 
With AI, maybe two months ago or

904
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,960
not two months ago, half a year 
ago, if someone would tell me 

905
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:47,680
that I would write Android code,
I would be no way surprised. 

906
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:49,840
And now look at me, I'm an 
Android engineer. 

907
00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:57,400
Yeah, but yeah, I'm joking 
obviously, but yeah, I actually 

908
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,640
started back in 2005. 
I started as a back end engineer

909
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:07,520
and I wrote in Java and then 
the, you know, destiny put me on

910
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,040
on that path of of mobile 
engineering. 

911
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:16,000
But yeah, I can definitely see 
doing whatever is needed. 

912
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:21,040
And, you know, I'm in the luxury
position of writing Android and 

913
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:25,400
and learning new technology 
while being paid as a senior 

914
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,760
plus engineer. 
So I think this is also very 

915
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:30,720
important. 
If you want to change your 

916
00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:37,440
career path, you either have to,
you know, get a pay cut or you 

917
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,880
have to be in this luxury 
position where the company 

918
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:47,360
trusts you enough that you can 
learn while be less efficient. 

919
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,960
Yeah. 
Learn and, you know, excel at 

920
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,200
this new field later on. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

921
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,080
As a last question I still had 
in my mind, it might be a little

922
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,400
bit of a personal one, but 
you've been in the mobile field,

923
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,120
very hands on for a long, long 
time and now with AI that's 

924
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:07,120
changing. 
Is it still fun for you or has 

925
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,000
the joy kind of evolved in a 
different way? 

926
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,440
You're less hands on typing, 
you're more orchestrating. 

927
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,280
Has the joy changed? 
Does it still fulfil you? 

928
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,680
I think that's what brought me, 
brought, brought me some joy 

929
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,040
back. 
I love learning new things. 

930
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,120
I love doing something I've 
never done before and that's why

931
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:33,280
I'm here. 
But yeah, learning doing Android

932
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:38,440
while I have very little idea 
what is, what is happening is 

933
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,640
actually very exciting. 
It's actually really cool. 

934
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:47,360
I I find with this opportunity, 
I'm I'm really grateful for the 

935
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:52,200
company to to believe in me and 
to hire as a kind of 

936
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:57,000
cross-platform engineer, if you 
will, because that's something 

937
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,200
that that brought me this joy 
back in my previous company. 

938
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:06,120
I definitely didn't have this 
much fun as I I do know I love 

939
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:07,120
that Amazing. 
Yeah. 

940
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,120
I love that. 
Thank you so much for coming on 

941
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,760
and sharing your not just your 
perspective, but also your 

942
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:13,480
career path. 
I think there's a lot of 

943
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,480
interesting learnings for people
that want to become mobile 

944
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:18,440
engineers or are already on that
path. 

945
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:20,680
So thanks for coming on. 
Thank. 

946
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:22,080
You thank you. 
It's it's been a pleasure. 

947
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:23,720
Cool. 
We're rounded off here. 

948
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:25,960
If you're still with us, let us 
know what you thought in the 

949
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,520
comments section below of this 
episode and we'll see you in the

950
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:28,920
next one.