Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akil and for
today's guest I have someone who's a true storyteller and
finds fulfillment and joy in solving people's problems.
Joseph Mooley, my friend and colleague over here Xevia.
I truly love this conversation. His openness and vulnerability,
the way he carries himself and the stories he tells.
Enjoy this episode Beyond coding.
You're in Zika, right? Yes.
Is Levant your your mentor? Levant is my mentor.
Levant is. I don't think there's a single
word to define what he is. Yeah.
What he represents and what he means to me as a person.
He's he's incredible. Yeah, right.
He's the very first person who taught me how to accept and
recognize and just. Show your own identity how he
embodies identity is something I have not seen before.
It's so authentic. Extremely.
Yeah. It's it's it's addictive.
Yeah. And we we hang out a few times.
We've gone fishing as well. It's one of his hobbies.
Very cool person. I think everyone should talk to
Levant. I agree.
Spend some time with the Levant. He's, for me, He had a role that
has been exemplary, exemplary, basically the way he carries
himself, the way he holds a conversation, his values and the
strength like in which he upholds them, I think that's
very admirable. Yeah, it's.
I can't explain it. Yeah, I feel privileged to
experience it. And every single time is a great
time with him. Yeah, I can imagine.
I I I mean he has a he has been with the company for like 20
years. It's.
A lot of time I wish I would have known him, let's say at
kind of the start or somewhere, the mid of his journey, 'cause
we're now seeing all the learnings.
They're all like honed in the way he carries himself.
But those were all learnings and I would like to know and learn
from that, like what they were more so than I know now,
basically. Yeah, well, the beauty of it is
he's he's here, he's there. You can book a meeting, talk to
him. We've had some very powerful
conversations. And one of the things that I
always wondered always just became curious about is how did
you become the person you are today?
And I think one of the small, small conversations you and I
have had is sometimes it takes a catastrophic life event to shift
your perspective or your world or to get you to question your
belief systems. And he remembers what that was
for him. I think it would be a great
story. I won't spoil it.
Find Levant. Yeah, he will tell you about
that. That's good.
It's, it's interesting that it could be that you can pinpoint
that it's this specific event, yes, that's when it when it
happened. Yeah.
For you. Could you do you know that
specific event as well? Do you have one or how would you
say that is? I have a lot, a lot of them.
The most recent one was. I think that the the greatest
one was the loss of my dad. This was when I was about 13
years old. Yeah, so he he left us or he
passed on just when I was starting high school.
My first year in high school. Read it for it.
Actually only had done about half a time of that.
So we we have like 3 times. I think that was the old system.
I don't know whether it's the current system.
Things might have changed, but. When he did, I come from a
family of four, now we are three.
Ever since he passed, he was, he was our breadwinner.
My mom has a very strong entrepreneurial spirit so she
still had a business. She was able to hold it down.
She's always been. She's the strongest one amongst
us all. But of course you know you have
to understand the loss of a partner in in such a time is not
the easiest thing to carry, is not the easiest thing to flow
with and. Yeah, eventually we we we lost
everything. So my my whole world shattered
everything. I came to have made sense of
ever since I was a child, because I did.
I grew up OK. Hey, that I want a bike.
That gets me a bike at some point in life.
That I think computers are cool. You know what?
He loved computers. He he loved math.
And this is how I learned how to type on the keyboard, because he
would bring folders of documents and ask for help.
Would you like to help me with this?
Of course. I mean, it's not a game, but
it's using the computer. So I'm going to type everything
out enough to not even want to look at the keyboard and just
identify the keys because I'm. I'm just enjoying the
interaction. Yeah, but when he'd left, then
everything went. Our family was there for us.
They did take us in. But you know the experience of
being woken up at 4:00 AM in the morning by by my mom and her
telling me and my sister, find the biggest bag you can find and
put everything you can carry and we have to leave in about an
hour. That was not a fun experience.
Yeah. And.
Of course, over the time, you know, getting into survival
mode, thinking about the fight or flight, you're gonna get
really numb or you're gonna make some really bad decisions while
you are conscious of it. I somehow managed to be so numb
through the entire period. Fast forward to when I turn 28
years old or when I turn 27. I decided to start therapy.
And I have been doing it for about 2 1/2 years now.
And that's when my therapist is telling me, yeah, I think you've
been numb and you've been in mourning for the last 13 years.
Yeah. And you didn't realize it.
Of course, that's that's also, that was the latest, greatest
moment of realization. My God, I've been surviving.
I'm looking at everything in the sense of like, take what you
need because we need to survive. And that perspective kind of
sheds You see everything that way.
Not the easiest place to be, I can imagine, Yeah.
So how was that step in? Kind of because I think if you
if you go to therapy, you might acknowledge that you need help
in, in a certain way, yes. But to acknowledge that I think
takes a long time. It does.
It either takes time or something happens and triggers
it all. And for me, what did OK was.
A relationship ended. So I was in a relationship with
who's also a friend at the moment.
She's in Kenya. It was a long distance
relationship during COVID. Of course, that was not the
easiest time for anyone as well. Yeah.
And when that came to an end, that kind of tipped the bucket.
And that gave me the moment to realize and look around and
actually see myself and not recognize myself enough to
understand I actually need help. You know, the same logic that
got me here is probably not the same that's going to take me.
Where I wanna go, Where do I wanna go, you know?
And as much as that might be, in fact, it's a very terrible place
to be. I try to be more positive with
that because we we cannot run away from problems.
In fact, I I kind of welcome problems because I get to learn
in the process. So to me, it's an opportunity to
start from fresh to build it from my own perspective, from a
very conscious perspective or intentional perspective as well.
Which gave me the chance to define the person I am today.
Yeah, so that did tip the bucket.
But as as painful as it was, it was, it was the beginning of my
own, my own journey. Yeah, Thanks for for sharing
that, first of all. And for me the, the true
question I have lies in kind of this awareness of, you know,
this has been your path, right. And you know the tipping points,
but to get to a point where the awareness is there, I think that
takes a long time. It does.
It takes a lot of conversations probably, and a lot of self
reflection. It does to get to a point where
you're talking about this. And I whenever I talk about my
catastrophic events, I tear up even thinking about them.
We had, for example, we joined this kind of session where we
had to share something about a personal life.
And one of the questions was like a genuine catastrophic
event that you could share with someone.
And even by thinking and by listening to other people, I got
very emotional. Like I'm a very emotional person
and trying to explain kind of my my catastrophic event and my mom
getting cancer for two years in a row basically and how that
affected me. I have a hard time communicating
that like even still. And the way you, the way you
carry yourself and also explain that conversation and those
catastrophic events, I feel like you've, I wouldn't say moved on
from them, but you've accepted that they happened and you can
carry it with you in a way that I cannot yet I feel like.
Yes, eventually I think, you know, I I can't speak from your
own experience, but what I can't share is from what I have seen
and I push myself to talk about it as much as I can when because
I enjoy storytelling and my story is the one I can tell the
best since I am a literal reflection.
Of everything I have been through.
And that also comes from way back when I was in primary
school just a small child, we had the privilege to have the
ADVD player in in my street, you know the the place I was born.
So when we got these fancy movies and my dad used to bring
them from work like bad boys two, you know at the at the time
Ali 2000s. Very big movie, right?
Yeah, I will watch that show. And I will memorize everything
about it. The color of the vehicles, the
sounds they make with the guns, the cars and the screeches.
And I will narrate that to my friends when I go to school,
telling the stories and existing in that emotional space, doing
all the acting and moving and all that, that that I enjoy
that. And that's where my love for
storytelling comes from. So when it came to telling my
own story. The biggest lesson I did realize
about getting more confident in that is just sharing.
It gives me a moment of reflection every single time.
And different people have given me different perspectives, which
is great because we're all unique and we all probably see
things different. You know, what you think about
me is not what I think you think about me.
It's it's always kind of different.
So every time I get to learn something new about myself.
Because I'm also just reflective as much as you're reflective to
me. Yeah.
Well, perspective has truly stuck with you in kind of
sharing your story with someone and then reflecting back to you.
There are some painful ones, and there are also some empowering
ones. Some of the painful ones are.
I've been told that I'm still talking about the same story,
you know, It's almost like I haven't moved on.
Which is important to think about.
But I've also been told, you know, that sounds absolutely
insane. Some people were not able to
comprehend what that felt like because there was some crazy
times. And I mean, you will see me on
this table with an with an iPad, but about 7-8 years ago I was
cleaning shoes in an open air market and not to say that this
is. A place where I wanted to be.
For the most part, all these things have just become they're
just tools that you collect on the way to wherever you're
trying to go. You mean the experiences?
Yes, experiences with the gadgets.
I, I, I don't really care much about these things as long as
they serve the purpose they're meant to serve.
And for the most part, that's how I end up getting everything
I I kind of want to get, which also shed some light on how.
How I look at them because I I have a problem with gratitude.
I have a problem with appreciation, which somewhat is
a side effect of being in survival mode.
You don't really get to regard a lot of things because you're
just trying to survive. You're trying to feed your
family, you're trying to eat or you're trying to sleep or make
it to school. So that shoe is not going to
matter that much. You know, cars not going to
matter so much. As long as I can get there.
So that's there's a lot of that going on, Yeah, Yeah.
And it's a constant battle. I get that you started with kind
of the, I guess, the biggest catastrophic event.
And that's I think one of the pillars where your story really
starts now we're somewhere here and it's a, it's probably a
different person than than way back then.
I mean, just by virtue of years that have passed since, but also
the learnings that you've gained.
Yes. How would you, how would you
start? I mean that's what I would
assume is the starting point, but what other pillars were like
big within that journey of yours?
Finding community that may have just been the greatest one
because coming from a place where we could not afford
education at all it it was never in the in the vision.
Yeah. As much as the dreams we had,
the dreams I had still have our big.
And need education on the way. This was never something that
was in my radar. But finding a community that was
accepting really questioned everything I knew you know was
coming from where I came from. It was almost you have to fight
for yourself and you have to and you're living.
Go back home, try that again or just continue the loop.
So I found this community. What community was that?
Right now it's evolved so much, I don't quite recognize it, but
you know, evolution, growth, it comes with a lot more success.
There's a coding boot camp called Moringa School, which is
based in Nairobi, Kenya. And at the time they were just
beginning. So very small community and
there's also a A building. Well, it used to be a building,
but now it's a community. It's called IHOP in Nairobi.
This is where a lot of the tech events in Kenya.
Who are helped so getting or gaining access to these people
who were just willing to help you fix the problems you are you
are trying to fix to debug, learn a programming language or
just to get to see how these big companies or innovative
companies operate or start or grow.
That was a candy store for me, I can imagine.
Yeah, so that's why. That's why I'm at Saviour at the
moment. It's the community, it's the
people. And this sort of environment
makes me feel like home. And I did try to step away from
it for about 3 years because I did join Xavier earlier this
year. Before that I was working for
another company called Betty Blocks, which was like, you
know, formal employment, full time employment, but lacking in
community. Did, yeah.
I realize this is where I actually want to be and I enjoy
doing this because of all the challenges that I enjoy being in
the fire, which I think is the shortest way to describe it.
So getting access to a community did show me that, you know,
Nairobi wasn't the biggest city that's actually out there.
And the problems Nairobi is solving are very different from
the problems Kampala is solving. Uganda, South Africa.
OK, so we are. We started to learn about
containers, right, about when they, you know, became so
popular 20/16/2017. But the biggest question I did
have is you know, who are the guys who are coming up with
these concepts? Where are they?
What are they talking about and what are they doing?
And it was my mission to find those communities and be a part
of those conversations, because I've always enjoyed a holistic
point of view. And I mean, solving a problem on
any level of abstraction is always going to be interesting
because it's a it's a problem, it's logical.
But thinking in terms of collaboration from a higher
level is something I definitely appreciate to have before I get
deep down into the details. And so when I was looking at the
conversations we were having there, at the time, I was
working with another consultancy organization called Andela.
They still exist. They did some great things.
In Africa as well. That wasn't it.
It started to feel repetitive and this is part of the ongoing
conversation about the the tech industry in Africa in general.
Still very young, a lot of problems to solve, which is
great, yeah. But in my perspective, those
were not the problems I wanted to start with.
I needed a little more context, a little more background, and
also a little more experience. And I found that here.
Yeah, And that is eventually what led me to this country.
That's really cool. Yeah.
What? What problems?
Like, how are the problems different?
Because they are different problems.
But I I don't think I have a good picture in imagining what
they are. I think to put them on very.
Maybe I will call this an uninformed perspective is we By
the way, I am also part of a few groups that are trying to solve
some problems and this is the common theme.
So one of the applications or one of the startups and part of
is called Natrella and the idea of this app, the idea this team
has is to solve a challenge in the mental health industry, get
people access. To help give them an idea, plant
a seed tell them you know what by the way this there's a way to
handle these things and I there's an African way of
dealing with problems that always has been it's like I know
how to drive but I'm not licensed to drive.
There's a there's a way to think about it.
I would think about it then about just to get back to the
point. Most of the problems we we face
or we solve are very user facing and they are client focused but.
That did give me an idea. We end up using abstractions
that were built elsewhere to solve different problems.
Yeah, and I wanted to start there.
Maybe that's me looking for control, but I I I have
questioned myself a lot about that because there's pros and
cons to having that kind of perspective.
I am led by curiosity. Some people will find me
annoying. Annoyingly curious.
I ask a lot of questions, but it's just genuine curiosity and
for the most part, one of the ways I define myself, which I
would call a love language I do have, is Acts of service, and in
order to know how to serve someone, I need to get some
context, understand them a little bit.
And I can't do that by asking questions which will definitely
seem annoying, or I can spend time with them.
I get to learn a few things, see how they handle golf, see how
they handle a bicycle or what they think about the sunset,
various things. And sometimes you have the
opportunity to do that, sometimes you do not.
Yeah. And of course, adversity
everywhere. So you have to navigate with
that. So it it does happen at times,
but that was the perspective I wanted to look for.
And there's a lot of richness when it comes to the Netherlands
especially. The Netherlands was not in
particular the focus. It was either going to be the US
or Europe in general. And how I ended up here in
particular I I came through a recommendation from a friend who
had never been to Europe at all and he was supposed to go to
Brussels, but his flight to Brussels was cancelled.
So he had to come to Schiphol and then take a bus to Brussels.
And he went through the Netherlands and he liked what he
saw. And a couple of months later he
moved. And then that was me getting a
text from from I think one of his friends at the time.
And she asked me, hey, would you be interested to relocate to the
Netherlands? Why not let's do this sell.
I sold everything I had hoped on a one way flight to a country I
had never been, never thought of at all.
But I have come to appreciate a lot.
How were you able to make such a like drastic decision?
Kind of what it sounds to me like on a on a whim, yes, I am
able to do a lot of that a lot of the times.
And that is because my idea of home was this was broken from
when we lost our home. Because that's that's what I
thought the idea of home should be.
So you want to ask me to go to the desert?
I don't know what the place I'm in right now means.
So yeah, it's it's it actually sounds fun.
Let's do it. And the only thing that held me
back in Kenya is my mom and my sister, because they're still
there. So I definitely had to talk to
them, but the conversation I brought to them was mom.
I think this is a way I can support us better.
It's it logically makes sense and that was the that was the
foundational idea of making that decision.
But I did come to, again through therapy of course start to
reflect on how that idea I had of home was broken down.
I mean it's always going to be a journey.
So I do not have the answers, but I gained a little conscious
perspective into maybe I can rethink that idea now.
Yeah, maybe I can start to define what that idea looks for
me. And that was the that that is a
part of defining what love is for myself.
So that's also connected to another deeper story and we can,
we can go for days. There's there's a lot to talk
about that of course. But I hope I answered your
question. I think so.
For me the the burning questions I still have is I I I see your
path, I see your track. And I hear part about your
values and part about what you appreciate, right On the
appreciation side, it's really finding communities, people that
are like minded people that give you inspiration and innovation
and ideas to move forward. And then on the other side the
things that you value or the things that drive you more.
So you said curiosity was one of them and I can really relate to
that. I mean the the fact that we do a
podcast and I talk to. Hundreds of people as, curiosity
as. Curiosity and it it has always
been a big driver of me in also understanding how things work
because I feel like and I've I've truly come to realize that
more so in having conversations. If I do not understand how
things work. It's very hard for me to give my
all, basically, to give my energy, to give my all and to
just without trust, follow someone or drive something or
carry something basically. Yes.
So that combined with curiosity also I'm I'm going to look at
myself probably makes me very annoying in asking those
questions or trying to understand.
But I feel like the more you learn about yourself and kind of
this path of self improvement, the better you are at the end of
it, at the outcome of it and the more you leverage that in
whatever you're doing on a personal level, on a
professional level, on any level, yes, I agree.
Those learnings for you. In what you value, what you
appreciate, what your drivers are.
Did they come mostly through kind of this journey when you
went into therapy and and realizing kind of what had
happened in the past or when did it truly like start and start to
pick off as well. So it definitely came from at
least the intentional part of it started through therapy.
Yeah, that's why I have this iPad with me.
I'm going to read you something or give you an idea of it, but
it also did the seed was planted from just being accidentally
around people who are thinking in those dumps.
Yeah. And that's why community is
important because just by existing in the space of people
who are doing this, who are questioning beliefs and in a way
that's, you know, not toxic, but of course you can't run away
from that. You know, we have to deal with
everything at the same time. It's it's chaos everywhere,
always. But existing around those people
just planted that seed for me. And once I got into therapy,
then I had the chance to ask myself those questions.
And now when I have a conversation with someone and
they are talking about authenticity, and now those
become tangible because I can sit and think, I understand what
my values are. I have a feeling I know what I
can bring to the table and I have an idea of what I feel like
I would need to be there for the people I care about.
Yeah. And even those I do not know.
So it kind of becomes a driving factor for everything that
you're doing. When it comes to work, it it
almost applies everywhere because I look at work as I am
serving people, and when I'm in service, I will do everything I
can to make sure that I am there for them.
And even though this is in context through, you know, a
very capitalistic world, it still serves me well to
understand that one of my values is fulfillment.
At the end of the day, I can, you know, go home and reflect on
all the things I was able to do, those I wasn't, and how I can
make sure that I will be better tomorrow.
Not just for them, but for myself as well.
Yeah, 'cause I I really need to be at my best or have an idea of
how I'm doing and where I'm at in order to know whether I can
actually do something good for you or we're just wasting time.
Yeah. How often do you reflect like
that? Is it on a on a daily basis?
On a weekly basis it's, it's actually so many times it's a
problem. It's too much.
It's there's a lot, there's a lot.
Which is also the reason why I switched to like machines
because I filled books with thoughts and notes and ideas.
And I mean there's there's there's some interesting
journeys that were involved. You know, if we we could talk
about religious aspects and the role those have or those have
had on My Life Substances as well.
There's a lot of of experiences that were involved in changing
belief systems. And at the end of it all now I
have to struggle with at least letting things be and being OK
with uncertainty, which I think is a problem everyone faces.
Yeah, so I I do maybe twice a week, which should be enough to
start the week with an idea of what I want to do.
And even though it doesn't always go that way, I'm still
going to sit and remember all the all the good things that
happened, all the bad things that happened.
If I can remember any of that. And if there's anything to
celebrate, I will celebrate. Sometimes, you know, it's
sometimes I forget, sometimes it comes up because I'm also
neurodiverse. So 1000 thoughts a minute.
So sometimes I will remember it and I will prioritize the most
in regards to serving people. And that's probably what makes
me a workaholic, because I'm I'm just going to do everything to
make sure that everyone around me is OK.
Yeah, You think that's also because I I recognize that in
part with myself and earlier you touched on kind of having a
challenge with gratitude as well.
Is that, do you think where it comes from as well kind of that
driving workforce? And sometimes being hot, like
feeling difficulty in accepting a compliment, for example.
Honestly, that's still a mystery for me, but I do struggle with
compliments a lot. I do not know how to accept
them. I can recognize them because in
literal times they are compliments.
You understand that's supposed to be positive, but the
emotional perspective of it, it's something I completely
lack. And I know I lost it at some
point, but it's not very much been a priority to, you know, to
seek. But I've read a couple of books,
talked to a couple of people who have given me the idea, for
example, of gratitude is something that can exist in a
space where anxiety cannot exist.
And such ideas are what would inspire me to dig a little
deeper in understanding how I can and understand gratitude a
little more, yeah, and apply it in my life.
Gratitude cannot exist in a place where anxiety exists.
Yeah, I have had some thoughts in the same line and but every
time I try to think of that in a logical sense, kind of feels
like something is taking the place of something which sounds
useful or efficient and how while looking at it that way
might be unfortunate, that just happens to be the gate in which
I can pursue that and that's something I've definitely
written down somewhere to look at.
Yeah, I thought about it. I was like, does that make
sense? And for me, it does make sense.
I've talked about this on the show as well.
I also have a hard time accepting compliments.
I'm trying to do better and whenever.
Especially if I'm reflecting now, whenever I would get a
compliment, I would always say things that I thought could be
improved and that could be from a place of anxiety or feeling
not good enough for yes, having kind of a bar that is too high
that I didn't reach for my own self expectation.
Yes. So in that sense, I I do
recognize that, yeah. That feels very familiar.
Yeah. Yeah, you also mentioned that
religious or religion as a concept as well as.
Substances played a role in kind of your your story and your past
experiences, yes. Is there anything you want to
share with regards to that? Yes, I do.
I mean, I don't know. I have to question that because
I'm on film. Whatever, you're comfortable.
It's not like it's not like anything that's unspoken or
illegal. I consume a lot of content,
yeah, around the idea of psychedelics in psychedelic
experiences. In fact, I listen to a lot of
podcasts that have those conversations.
And I do understand the idea of relating psychedelic experiences
to religious experiences, the role they have played in
history, in a lot of history we have.
And that is also, in fact a lot of history towards the origin of
religion. And that is a very hot topic,
yeah, which we can definitely talk about.
But not on this one, not on this one.
What podcast do you listen to? Then it's Divas.
There's a few people I can recommend.
One of them is called Brian. I do not know his second name.
I can check that out, but I want to.
I don't want to pull out my phone.
We'll we'll do that. Just just out of curiosity,
there's a there's a guy called Graham Hancock.
I've heard that name, yes. He has some very interesting
conversations going on in any podcast he's a part of.
He's written some books and there's been a lot of conflict,
especially with religious organizations, around some of
his research and some of his discoveries.
But you know what? Some of it, at least the much
that I have read and listened to, and it's not just him.
There's a couple of people. And when I sit and think about
that and I relate to the experiences I have had, it does
it makes sense. At least it makes sense for me
because part of that is how I got to question my own belief
systems. Part of that is when I got to
recognize, yes, I do have an ego.
I don't like how it comes out in my words, in my writing and how
I talk to people. So how I interact with people
today is not the same way I used to interact with other people.
And that also comes with being very insecure, being very
conscious of everything you're saying or even writing or not
even writing at all because of the insecurity.
But, you know, getting through those experiences did get me to
question that did give me a chance at, you know, stating my
own case and becoming intentional with it, accepting
vulnerability and identifying ways to grow empathy for all the
things and people around me. Yes, there had to be a trigger,
and I wish there wasn't. You know, I wish this was
something we all had. Yeah, maybe the world would be a
lot more better, but I don't know whether that is better.
I also don't know sometimes I I have conversations with people
that. They say they haven't had
anything catastrophic like happened to them and they tell
me they wish certain things wouldn't have happened to me.
And those words are kind of unfamiliar with me, like they I
can't really put put them in place because for me experiences
make you who you are at the end of the day and they are
experiences and you some you can't really change like in in
any way or form. They just happen and you come
out of them differently. Sometimes better, sometimes
stronger, sometimes it takes a while.
Sometimes you just change and you can't really do anything
about that. No, you just have to find a way
to accommodate with this new perspective that you have.
Yes, and carry on with it. Yeah.
I think we all play a role in everyone's story.
Especially if, you know, we happen to exist in the same
space and time. Yeah, then these are there are
lessons that can be learnt. That's why we read all those
books. I watch movies.
I'm a very big movie, and in fact I used to sell movies.
At some point I will talk about that, but I have friends who
also tell me they haven't gone through that.
And yeah, I I I don't know whether everyone is supposed to
go through something big or catastrophic.
But however your story has been, that's just who you are.
And maybe there's a lot more to appreciate.
Maybe there's a lot less. We do not define the boundaries
for that. We just get to go through the
experience and hopefully leave some positivity for the next
person or the person who's sitting next to you.
Absolutely. The openness that you have and
the way you communicate in kind of you're putting yourself out
there, You're being vulnerable. For me it looks like it's
effortless and I don't know if you do that or with intent
still, or if that's something that's just.
Been kind of second nature after having learned a lot about
yourself. But I do see or I I can imagine
where it adds value in your life or in your professional life in
that way. Is that still intentional?
Do you do that on a more intent level or has it become kind of
second nature? And then secondly, how does it
kind of benefit you along the way?
It's very intentional it. It has become a part of who I
am. Yeah, so I do lead by
vulnerability and and empathy. I do want to talk to the human
being, not the colleague. And emotion plays a very huge
role in it. And the biggest reason for this
is because when I like it, but before I came to like it, I had
to accept that was my reality at the time.
I never had the chance to express myself in the way that I
wanted to. I felt like I didn't have the
stage until I realized I can create the stage.
And with that came the idea of fostering that conversation with
my friends. But before I even got to my
friend, of course I had to really question where this was
coming from. Because from the society I was
born into, The idea of what it be, what it means to be a man,
has very little to do with emotion.
And here I am communicating in emotion or in emotional terms,
connecting from vulnerability. So yeah, I do not want to bring
that up because I kind of don't really want to face that
conflict or that argument. I was there is an ego type for
this, which I don't have in mind right now.
But I will send you a link about the various ego types and how
they have all these properties. So I did recognize myself in one
of them. I think it's the ostrich, you
know put your head in the sand because you don't want to deal
with life. And that was just a big part of
my life until I got this intentional opportunity to
define that. And that was therapy Again.
I sought help because I, you know, I think it's it became
more logical for me and I wish I remember why I could make that
decision because then I can tell everyone that hopefully makes a
difference. But it is very intentional and I
like it because I really get to connect with people from a place
where I can see maybe who they really are.
And that's the person I want to talk to and that's the person
who maybe I will get a chance to help or maybe just get to exist
around. It's it's it's a privilege that
I appreciate being around and it's something I recognize and a
lot of people, especially 11th, you know we we we brought him up
and he is very genuine and part of defining what that genuine is
for me is seeing a lot of vulnerability and he wears it on
the hat. Yeah, this is who I am.
And this is how we can be. And even without those
boundaries, even though it sounds like I'm communicating
boundaries, there's absolutely none.
And that means you can just drop the load.
Yeah, sit and have a conversation.
Feel appreciated. Yeah, I get that there are, I
feel like, mental boundaries, yes, because there's boundaries
and there's hierarchy just by virtue of having different
positions and. People judging each other
financially, professionally, those are all kind of
boundaries. And especially early on when I
would have a seat at a table like this and the person across
from me would be the CTO or the CEO.
Like I would be very, very nervous about any conversation,
especially if I would have to talk.
And having had more of an opportunity to talk to just
people in this profession, doesn't matter what they do.
Finding kind of this equal level of conversation has been where
the most value happens. And I think that happens when
exactly as you mentioned, you come from a place of this is who
I am, this is me and my vulnerability.
My this is me being vulnerable. This is me being kind of
professional. You have this different kind of
ranges there, but having those conversations I think is is way
better than just thinking about the boundaries that are there.
Yes. And it's it's hard every time
and there are definitely times when people will not want that.
And you know, you have to respect that.
You also have to appreciate that that's, you know, conscious.
And that's OK. I mean, sometimes it works,
sometimes it doesn't. It's been difficult actually
navigating with it, but it hasn't deterred me from it
because that's just who I want to be and I'm accepting of
everything that comes in my way. Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna
ask that because I I think I'm, I like to be friends with the
people I work at, not just on a work level, but even on a
personal level. Because I feel like having those
relationships, being able to trust each other on that level,
makes the team side of things, makes it stronger.
Yes. Which means the end result, the
productivity and the output of the team makes it better.
It does. And I I want to.
Do the best that I can as a person as well as in a team.
It does so every time. A-Team doesn't really do that
well. I find myself navigating towards
fixing team issues rather than doing my thing, sweeping my own
St. in that way, and I I don't think that'll ever go away.
I have however, worked with a person, a colleague that said
work is work and personal life is personal life.
Yes, you and I cannot meet outside of work.
Because then we would cross those boundaries.
And that was for me, from that level my perspective was very
difficult working together with because they were like, I can
see what you're trying to do. These are my boundaries and we
cannot cross that. And I could not.
I didn't want to force anything. I I respected those boundaries
and I tried to uphold by them. And I I gave my energy to other
people instead. I still had the work
relationship and we did what we needed to do within the same
team, but that was difficult. OK?
That is definitely hard, man, 'cause that that feels to me
like taking away the humanity part of it, you know, let's just
be robots, yeah? It's like, this is my work life,
yeah, it's just do what we are supposed to do and leave and go
back home. And I mean, the other side of it
is also not the easiest because, you know, anyone who's tried to
do business with family or friends can tell it's not the
easiest thing to do. And maybe we should talk about
that more. Maybe we should talk about what
it actually means to meet someone where they are at.
Because I feel like that genuinely does work for me every
time. The hardest part about defining
that is actually defining it, or being with people who don't want
to do that, or who don't do that work, or who don't recognize
that. And there's a lot of people who
don't, which is the most unfortunate thing that there is
about it. But being able to connect with
someone from that particular point, man, it's a beautiful
relationship because you can just be yourself.
Yeah, you are not afraid to fail. 100%, Yeah.
Because failure is not a thing. It's just a lesson.
We're tripping. OK, great.
Let's pick yourself up or you will be picked up.
That's what I was gonna say, yeah.
And you get to there is no limit to that.
And I wish there would be more of that, because maybe we can do
better things or greater things. Yeah.
Whenever I think of when I felt like my team was the most
effective, that's when I was working with my friends.
That's where we had a level that was close to what I imagined
perfect kind of level work relationship.
Friend relationship would be like because I've never had
better and what I'm striving towards now in the relationships
in the teams that I have, it's kind of an equal level of that,
OK And sometimes it makes me sad because I don't think I'll ever
reach that level, probably because it was new and I've I've
just never had that same experience.
Small team, I felt super productive.
I was younger and early in my career and I was learning a lot.
And just looking at how people did the things they did on a
software level, on a consultancy level was just a joy to learn
from and to be part of. And I think I I still want that.
I'll always work towards trying to get that.
Yes, that's one of my at least with the person I am today and
the values I have today. That's where I draw an if
statement. If if that's true, then you will
continue to see me in that space or or in that moment.
And if it's not true and I have to leave, then I will know I
have done everything I could to make a difference or to adapt.
Cuz adaptation also just it becomes part of your story when
you are going through mud and you have to step differently.
If the last one didn't work, you definitely have to change,
otherwise you are gonna remain in the mud.
Yeah, I was wondering because I I'm curious to hear your
perspective on this. Last week I talked to actually a
few days ago I talked to Michael Doyle and he's a, he's an
engineering manager and I'm for me right now, I see an
engineering manager track as kind of a next career path that
might be an option for me. But one of the fears I have is
just by virtue of having those relationships or being a person
that wants to have those kind of relationships that are not just.
Work life, but that are assimilating with kind of
personal life. Yeah.
Growing to a point where you might become manager of the
people that you want to build those relationships with by
virtue of there being that hierarchy, you might not be able
to create those relationships anymore.
But I do feel like I want my leaders to be empathetic, to be
vulnerable, to want to build those relationships.
Yes, That's when I want to strive to be.
But I'm not sure if I can create that from that position just by
virtue of there being that hierarchy innately.
Because at the end of the day, financially, managers influence
what happens to their team to a certain degree and above them
the management level there. It all trickles down like that.
And I feel like those boundaries are sometimes also what kind of
then withholds people from creating those relationships?
They are, yeah. They at least they play a role
in it. Leadership to me is difficult.
I mean, there's there's definitely some things to be
fulfilled about leadership, but it's very exhausting and I don't
hear often a lot about that. Yeah, because the reality is
building empathy for any number of people who work with you and
against making decisions that are actually impactful to their
lives or to their families lives.
Man, that that is probably something I don't want to do.
Takes energy, yes. Yeah, a lot.
Maybe does take strength, which perhaps I do not have at the
moment, and that's why that seems like a mountain.
So there are people who succeed in that.
I have seen people succeed in it, but also just being
reflective of who I am and where I'm at right now is I have done.
I have been a leader before. Of course, every single time you
get to learn, you get to improve, you become different.
But at the point I'm at right now, yeah, it does come with
understanding that we need to build some systems that will
protect us from as much as we can account for.
Yeah, it doesn't take away the difficulty.
In fact, it's easy. It's easier to accept that it's
gonna be difficult, but I do not like it at all.
Is, is that your ambition to grow into positions like that as
well and to be able to have kind of the strength and resilience
that you think it needs to have? I would hope more for the
strength and the resilience that than I would hope to be a
leader, you know, in, in or in that capacity.
I do not know what that means for me at the moment.
Yeah, but eventually I will get to understand that.
So I'm I'm not really putting a lot of pressure on myself on it.
I can't execute on it. It's just not a preference,
yeah. Yeah, that makes sense in kind
of you touched on this earlier as well, but in kind of being on
this path of self improvement, acting from a place of
vulnerability and empathy, you've seen people interact
differently with you and just by sake of kind of making it more
compartmentalized on a professional level let's say.
Did you feel like you got more stuff done, That people were
like, that it made you more likable that people would in
Dutchess, like Kuhn Factor would give it more to you toward
depending on, not depending on versus another person, for
example, just by virtue of who you are.
People call it charisma as well. In good English, I would maybe
relate a lot more of that to my home country.
And I don't like it as well because and on the most
fundamental level, we are all human beings.
Yeah, we all deserve nice things.
So anytime I ever interface with the a situation like that, it's
I'm, I'm going to share or exit the situation.
It's also very difficult to talk to people who you can understand
that these ideas will be very opposing to what they believe.
Yeah, and I mean it's it's great to be an advocate for, you know,
positivity or or a better future every time.
But sometimes I feel like it can be counterproductive.
And there are definitely better ways of doing that.
Because at the end of the day, if this was easy, if if it was
easy enough to just tell someone 1 + 1 is equal to 2, and that
makes completely complete sense and it changes everything about
who they are and they become a different person, we would not
be where we are today. So planting that seed in a
different way hopefully sheds a difference.
And that's more or less where I end up almost every time.
And it's the most painful experience ever.
Also because you know, the Netherlands is a first world
country, Kenya is a third world country.
So there will be things that look great because they are here
and when you go back home, looks like you are you, you know
you're coming from some magical place.
But at the end of the day, and we, we are all human beings and
we all have the capacity to make decisions.
We just don't know it or we are. We come from systems that teach
us differently. But I hope we can all just get
to realize the choices that we have.
And I think that makes all the difference, because if you knew
you could make a choice to do something different and I think
you probably would, yeah. Or if we at least had an idea
and can't for any reason whatsoever, then we are on the
same page. Yeah, absolutely.
It's interesting how conversations and perspectives
kind of change you in a way or at least help you form your own.
I think I might have kind of not appreciated that as much, but
especially in in. Talking more to people and
having those conversations, especially compared to my past
and even my youth, I would just be by myself and I'll be content
with that. And now I want to talk to people
and learn and and gain their perspective because I think it
helps for my own and I feel like it makes me at the end of the
day, a better person. I think it makes my belief
system stronger, or at least it hones them just by virtue of
challenging with other people. But sometimes it might also feel
like I'm living in a bubble, and if someone comes in and just
bursts that bubble, my world would be kind of flipped upside
down. And I have to reevaluate a lot,
which might be kind of a fear that's in there as well.
It's a scary one. Do you feel that as well?
Yes, I do. And I do recognize some bubbles
that I exist in. I think Sabia's organization is
also a bubble. Yeah, in a way.
Any, anywhere, anywhere, with a gathering of people with a
common set of values and ideas and beliefs kind of just forms a
bubble. Because challenges will come,
you will have to face them, and you'll have to find a way to
either remain strong or change or adapt or move.
It happens all the time, and from a very individualistic
perspective, I do have my own bubbles.
I succeed a lot more and communities that hold common
values. Just making a reference again to
the organization, it makes me feel safe.
It makes me understand how to navigate, how I can navigate.
Well, that does set some borders, you know, You just
like, yeah, you can be making some kind of fun in in that kind
of space. It does give me the flexibility
to be creative with what's on my plate and oh wait, I can build
my own plate. We can build one together, you
know, there's there's limitless possibilities when you're with
like minded people. I do exist in my own space a
lot. At least.
I used to be afraid of it for a very long time.
So this is also the other thing I did work on in in therapy and
now I really appreciate my own space and it's it's a point
where I actually get to have these conversations.
I do record voice memos as well as much as I write and then I
get to listen to them. So one of the questions I was
gonna ask you is, have you ever been a guest in your own
podcast? No, So depends because every 10
episodes now on 1/21, ten 101 just as a as an exception I ask.
The audience that that's listening in, if they have any
questions and then I I try and answer them from my perspective,
from my kind of judgement or experience in that way.
So that has been kind of the closest I've been in being a
guest on my own podcast. I've had people where they would
flip the switch on me and ask a lot of questions and then it
would feel like we're Co creating and I'm I'm the guest
role as well. Because that to me looks like
the moment where I'm sitting by myself in my house and asking
myself those questions and then writing down those answers.
But then again, you know, the questions themselves that I
asked myself today are definitely different because you
again exist in the community and someone comes in with a book
they just read that shows them how to answer, how to ask clean
questions and how to build up a conversation, maintain a
conversation. You can even speak to people you
don't want to speak to and still learn something from them.
And you know that's a seed being planted.
And then you factor in all that information just the same way.
You get to talk to all these people, you get all those ideas
and then you are the guest and you get to see all these things
that you've learnt. And maybe you get to realize
that you're actually living them and practicing them.
Maybe you aren't shaking someone's hand when you walked
into the building, but because someone told you something that
made so much sense. You actually want to know how it
feels. Or it became subconscious and
you're just doing it and you didn't realize it.
Yeah, I sometimes when I look at myself in previous episodes or
the way I for example, I did AI, did a talk at a university and
it was recorded and I looked at myself and I sometimes don't
recognize. That that is who I am.
And if that's how others perceive me, it makes it even
harder. Because if that's not how I
perceive myself, and they perceive me like that, then
there's a mismatch. I think you touched upon this as
well. Yes, in the opposite way,
though, because I don't perceive myself like that when I do
something, when I stand on stage, when I when I talk to
someone, I have a lot of anxiety.
I get very nervous in trying to figure out what I'm going to
say. I I do a lot with self humor, so
whenever you see me crack up a joke, that's probably because
I'm nervous. But apparently it lands well and
it it shows a certain vulnerable side.
It shows a certain apathetic side sometimes, and that's then
how others perceive it. But from my point of view,
looking at it from my lens, I don't know if that is who I am,
but maybe it is. Or maybe it is a version.
It's just weird to see that from outside in sometimes.
That is deep. Yeah, that is deep.
And I don't know whether this is fortunate or unfortunate, but it
does. I understand that.
And I I'm starting to think maybe if I can build a capacity
of not cracking a joke or actually build the capacity to
be to be mad at someone, you know, like show some emotion to
someone, then that would really tell me how OK or safe I feel
with someone. Because I, I do have an anxiety
disorder and I do recognize what it takes to, you know, make the
joke just to give you a chance to breathe.
Yeah, while having that discussion.
Or plan a whole meeting before you before the meeting happens.
Write all the notes down so that you are you feel prepared.
I've done that, yeah. Before you get to, Yeah, yeah,
that's. That's not the easiest thing,
but we do what we must. Yeah, I I feel like we do what
we must. And because of that, and
probably because you, you get good at that, others perceive it
to be a level that you don't think you are at.
Yes, to give you the simplest example, every time and this
happens and I know it's gonna happen if I'm in a round table
with new people. And you do your kind of your
introductory rounds. I'm Patrick, I'm X years old.
I live in blah, blah blah blah. Whenever I see that round slowly
coming towards me, my heart starts beating and I know it.
I I check my heartbeat, I try and pace myself and when it
happens, I do my story, I take a breath and then I'm done.
And over and over and over it happens.
And when I tell people like I, I get nervous.
I don't enjoy it. I don't want to be there at that
moment. I can do it.
But it's just not enjoyable. People don't see that for a bit,
yeah, because it will never seem that way.
In fact, you're probably going to seem the coolest guy who can
make the funniest jokes. But man, it was not a fun
experience. No, no, no, it was not.
In fact, you just want to go home now.
Yeah, it is draining sometimes as well.
Yeah, I understand that. Yeah, we we have some things in
common. It's nice.
It's nice to see that as well. And it's also, you know, I
appreciate you opening up that way.
And this, this is this is what makes everything worthwhile,
Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you as well man. Thank you as well.
The only last remaining thought I had was if people are
listening in and and they want to do more with this or they
want to act from a place of vulnerability, be more
empathetic. I've always had a hard time
trying to imagine what that is. But since you mentioned you're
doing it with intent, are there any like?
Tools or perspectives you can offer for people to start doing
that or incorporating that or how do you do it?
With intent, let's say I wish I had an answer for that, or I
wish I had an easy way of approaching it.
But I think a lot of it comes from, in the most general times,
doing the work that you are avoiding.
But there's a lot of people who know why they are avoiding doing
the work they're doing. There is no template way of
getting to this point in your own perspective.
But there are ideas that are also constantly being shared,
like defining what a comfort zone means for you looks like to
you. And that applies to all
contexts. A small example is working out.
A lot of insecurity goes around to working out and a lot of
people have a lot of reasons why they're not working out.
And once you start to hear some people say, you know what, maybe
start with the 5 minutes or start with you know that the
whole idea of just sleep in your gym clothes, that maybe you wake
up and you're already in there, that's not going to work for me.
That's not going to work for me. But what's going to work for me
is I understand, maybe if I do a 5 minute workout today, that
will definitely give me a win. Yes, small thing.
And tomorrow maybe I'll do a 5 minute workout again.
But what that does is it kicks in a momentum.
And if I can apply that to any context, whether it's talking to
people. And if you only need to, you
only need to exist in that moment as much as your comfort
zone will allow you. So you're kind of just extending
your comfort zone just a little bit every time and you will not
realize it when you actually will have done so much.
And it's a journey. So it doesn't have like an end,
it doesn't have a pit stop. You know you you can keep going
till as much time as you have. So it's it's very undefined in
those terms. But redefining what your comfort
zone is, I think is a good start.
Yeah, to make a small difference and a small difference is all
you need to celebrate and recognize effort.
I love that. Do the work that you're you're
not doing or you don't want to do because you probably know,
and maybe this is an interesting one to end off on as well, There
is something in US and you and me and in other people, a lot of
other people that still do the work because you can also say
I'm not going to do that. That's probably the easy way,
yes. But something in you says I'm
going to do that or I'm going to try and build momentum or I'm
going to try the smallest step that I can do and kind of
stretch that comfort zone. Yeah, I can't put a finger on
what that is because it's to me that is intrinsic how I explain
it for myself, I have to do that.
That's a have to. And for other people, like no,
that's a choice. You don't have to do that.
And like, but I have to do that if I want maybe those other
things. Like it's a prerequisite
sometimes OK. To do the work that I don't want
to do, to gain the benefits or reap the benefits of what I
actually want, I think that's a very good one.
That's a very good one. It might be that yes is that
intrinsic motivation? Does that inner voice.
And it really sucks to also ignore, you know, because it's
never, it's never gonna leave. In fact, maybe.
You know, depending on whatever situation you've been through,
maybe that voice changes its tone every time you don't do
something. But I do recognize it.
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that as
well. Thank you as well, man.
This was this was a lot of fun. I think this was different and
very deep compared to previous conversations I've had.
But I really want to thank you and commend you for who you are
because I've talked to you like before the show.
This is not an act. If other people talk to you in
real life, this is who you are. That's also how you got referred
to me, probably because people said talk to Yosef.
He's an interesting guy. I appreciate that.
And also to the person who
recommended me, I appreciate him as.
Well, as it ends, yes. Cool.
Then we're going to round it off here.
Thank you so much for listening, everyone.
If you're still listening, reach out to Yosef.
I'm going to put all his socials in the description below.
Let him know you came from our show.
And with that being said, thank you for listening.
We'll see you in the next one.