1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,680 Hi everyone, My name is Patrick O Kew and if you're interested 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,600 in mastering software engineering as a craft, this 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,240 episode is for you. Joining me today is Joris 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,040 Gowkers, CTO and hands on Architect over at Trifork, and 5 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:14,560 he has over 25 years of experience in this industry, 6 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,320 more than yours and mine combined potentially. 7 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,280 He walks us through what to focus on when you're early in 8 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,240 career or already senior with regards to how to master new 9 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:28,440 topics, which environments to be in to thrive and much, much 10 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:29,400 more. So enjoy. 11 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:36,200 In essence, you've been in the industry for a lot longer than 12 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,960 me, and I think for a lot longer than most listeners as well. 13 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,080 What still gives you energy when you're creating software, when 14 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,480 you're delivering things? Yeah. 15 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:48,760 What I one thing that I still like, and that's also why I like 16 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,600 being very deep into a tech stack, is to actually have a 17 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,040 feeling of mastery where if you do get a new problem, you don't 18 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,640 feel overwhelmed. Or if I go, man, how we're going 19 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,240 to do this, I've no idea. But you actually feel in 20 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,640 control. You feel in a way that you can 21 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,400 say, OK, I understand what you want, I can plot out some 22 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,640 alternatives. I can think about the different 23 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,040 pros and cons of different alternatives, then make it work. 24 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,160 And then when you do that and it actually works, that's still 25 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:15,840 something that I find very rewarding. 26 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,560 I always joke at work. That's my methodology is 27 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,280 Kaiper's first time, right? I like to build something that 28 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,080 just works rather than have to reiterate and fix and fix and 29 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:27,200 fix. No, this is not the way. 30 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:30,480 And you can only do that when you, when you have a like a deep 31 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,960 understanding upfront of what you're going to do, what you're 32 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:34,520 going to encounter, what the pros and cons are. 33 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,000 Because in the end, what I, what I like to do is on the one hand, 34 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,720 I like to build custom software. That's what I've been doing for 35 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,040 a very long time already. And I, I still enjoy doing that. 36 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,320 But I also like to do it in a, in a way that for customers 37 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,880 sounds like a real benefit rather than something that just 38 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,160 costs a lot of additional money because they couldn't buy 39 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:55,200 something off the shelf. Right. 40 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,480 That's very often the perception of, of enterprise custom 41 00:01:58,480 --> 00:01:59,880 software. It's, Oh yeah, it's just going 42 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:02,960 to be expensive because it is expensive to do something that 43 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,960 is completely custom. So that's that feeling of 44 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,520 mastery where you can both quickly show that you can 45 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,280 deliver real business value and at the same time know that the 46 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,200 way that you've done it is not like taking shortcuts or doing a 47 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,880 hack, but to do something proper that you will be able to 48 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,800 maintain for a longer time as well, for example. 49 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:23,480 Yeah, that's still something I really enjoy. 50 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,960 I feel like that, like the idea of mastering your, I love that. 51 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:29,720 But also in software engineering, there's so many new 52 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,400 things that like come in and out. 53 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,000 How do you still like have this confidence of mastery? 54 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,640 Because even for me, I've done this for like 8 years now in the 55 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:41,280 industry, I don't feel like I've mastered this craft. 56 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:42,520 I feel like new stuff always keeps. 57 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,080 It's true, yeah. It's, it's what I like in 58 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,040 general as to have to drive the direction of where I need to 59 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,760 learn and where I need to evolve is to, to, to have real real 60 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:54,520 work or real problems that I need to solve. 61 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,640 So this has been a problem, for example, if for myself in my 62 00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:01,240 previous job when I was working for spring Source as a trainer 63 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,880 and consultant, this would always be when it wasn't 64 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:06,920 training. The consultancy was typically 65 00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:09,480 short assignments, couple of days with the customer. 66 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,960 They had some particular issue that they were struggling with 67 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,000 or they wanted to learn about something that they didn't 68 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,440 understand yet. And I would help them out. 69 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:20,480 But when you do that and then you do some trainings and then 70 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,080 every now and then you have like a week where there's downtime, 71 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:24,920 you can just start studying stuff. 72 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:26,800 There's nothing really to tell you. 73 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,760 OK, so out of the 5000 things that I could start to research 74 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,600 now, what is it that I'm going to do? 75 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:35,600 Because, well, you have your personal interests, but it 76 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,840 doesn't really make sense to only have your personal interest 77 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,400 drive your professional development. 78 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,520 It should come from professional requirements. 79 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,560 So what I really like about my current job is that most of the 80 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,120 stuff that I research is actually driven by real 81 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,880 requirements. So if I'm, for example, I'm 82 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,400 currently working for Nate Longslow today that does 83 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,000 lotteries for a couple of years already where we are building a 84 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,360 big integration platform. So the typical concerns there 85 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:07,280 are stuff like making robust integrations to external systems 86 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,040 where we have item potency and retries and circuit Breakers and 87 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,280 observability and all of that stuff in place. 88 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,760 It's about orchestration, making sure that the one we have 89 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,519 business processes that span multiple back ends and something 90 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:23,280 goes wrong, that we can correct it in a way that everything is 91 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:26,400 still consistent and that automatically that focus gives 92 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,040 me a way of, OK, so this is what I need to learn. 93 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,040 I need to dive into what tooling is available to make sure that 94 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,520 we have stuff like circuit breaking in place. 95 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:38,240 I need to look into observability to make sure that 96 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,680 not only do we have login, but we have metrics around all of 97 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,040 this and we can do dashboarding and we can see what's happening 98 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,360 because we have over 40 back ends that we're actually 99 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,680 integrating into this platform. So it's, it's huge. 100 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,400 And that's, yeah, that sort of automatically gives you a way, a 101 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,040 way forward. We're running stuff on 102 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,120 Kubernetes. So that means, OK, I need to 103 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,920 learn about containerization, how to effectively do that with 104 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,360 my applications. The way that you package up a 105 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,080 Spring Boot application, for example, in a, in a Docker image 106 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:09,120 makes a big difference in how it actually performs and how it 107 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,680 runs and how it builds. Also, you don't want to like 108 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,440 have to rebuild the entire layer just because of a single code 109 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,080 change. So yeah, that I usually try to 110 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,400 let the the the the requirements of, of real projects of real 111 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,080 customers drive what I'm actually getting into. 112 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,920 And that has been working out quite well for for the last 20 113 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,680 years. I mean, I've, I've been doing 114 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,400 something similar where if there's a certain problem at a 115 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,000 customer with specific technologies, that for me is the 116 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,680 opportunity to dive deep in those technologies specifically. 117 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,240 I don't have this inkling of this interest to go deep by 118 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,800 myself to just various technologies because I don't 119 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,160 know if I'm going to apply that. Similar with me and sometimes I 120 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,400 that could also be tricky, right? 121 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,800 Because you're only learning the stuff that happens to be in the 122 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:53,960 like. A chicken egg problem? 123 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:54,720 No. Exactly. 124 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:59,920 So for example, recently with a colleague, I was invited to an 125 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,760 event or a seminar around quantum computing. 126 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,320 And this was one of those areas where it's like, oh, this is 127 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,720 completely foreign to me. I need to, I don't know anything 128 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,400 about this. And I know people also in the 129 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,640 Java space that have been looking into what is quantum 130 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:14,960 computing. They've tried to make it 131 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,840 digestible and explainable to people. 132 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:19,560 And I find it sort of interesting. 133 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,800 But it's indeed not the thing that I'm just by myself are 134 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,920 going to be spending a lot of time on because I am very 135 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,480 focused on professional engineering. 136 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,080 That's always what I've been doing. 137 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,160 Before I got into college, I I didn't want to study computer 138 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,520 science because I thought that's just going to be sitting behind 139 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:38,920 the computer. That's probably not for me. 140 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,120 So I did AI. But I did AI in 1994 to 1999 so 141 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,560 it was 20 years too early. But you're an AI expert. 142 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,880 I was most certainly I'm not anymore though. 143 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,080 This was traditional AI mostly. It was at the free University in 144 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,000 Amsterdam. It was expert systems, that sort 145 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,600 of stuff. At the end they rebranded it to 146 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,760 multi agent systems, but it was still expert systems. 147 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,600 So that's what I did. And then my first job actually 148 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,800 was the R&D department for software engineering geek. 149 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,800 And I thought that will be nice. I will learn some more server 150 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,840 engineering than I learned in college and then I'll go back 151 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:15,600 into AI. But I never went back into AI. 152 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,160 But it means that my my drive to do software engineering to learn 153 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,720 about software has always been professional. 154 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,720 It's never been like, oh, I'm just really into computers and I 155 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,760 want to learn all of the languages or I want to learn. 156 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,840 It's always been, OK, we're going to solve this issue. 157 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,640 And I, I want to do it in the best possible way. 158 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,120 And for that, I need to understand a lot. 159 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,320 And when you start with enterprise Java in 1999, you 160 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,040 have to learn a lot of stuff just to build a very simple 161 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,240 system. Yeah, I think that that's also 162 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:41,880 part of it, right? I've always been in this 163 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,440 situation where you need, you needed to have like this super 164 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,640 steep learning curve. And then only once you get past 165 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:48,960 that, you can start to do something. 166 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,480 So that's been becoming sort of a habit for me. 167 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,360 It doesn't matter if I need to learn a lot, I'll just dive in 168 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,520 until I really understand. I feel like that that skill, 169 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,040 that essence is what is going to make people successful Software 170 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:02,800 engineer. Yeah, I think it has to. 171 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:04,440 You have to. It's a combination of being 172 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,000 curious but also being persistent. 173 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:07,040 Yeah, right. Yeah. 174 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,480 Piece of discipline and also kind of comfort in being 175 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,600 uncomfortable. Yeah, I like that you highlight 176 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,040 that, like this position that you have of mastery that gives 177 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,760 you the comfort, but it doesn't take away that there's a lot of 178 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,200 technologies that you have to learn. 179 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:20,600 Yeah, Yeah. And that's consistent. 180 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:21,680 That's never going to go away. No. 181 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:22,440 Exactly. Yeah. 182 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,320 Yeah. What would you advise for people 183 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,840 that are, like trying to master their own craft? 184 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,320 Because I feel like if I were to start out now and it's very hard 185 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,799 to relate, but there's a lot of technologies, I do think that 186 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,480 software engineering is a very good core to have. 187 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,880 And if you can be a really good software engineer by essence of 188 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,039 you being responsible for creating software, you're going 189 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:43,360 to think of observability, you're going to think of 190 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,320 infrastructure, you're going to touch on topics like data and AI 191 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,640 and cloud. Like I feel like software is the 192 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,200 centre of it so it could be a good start to start with but 193 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,240 then how do you start and what do you master first or? 194 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,800 Yeah, I think the start needs to be with the basics in terms of 195 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,360 the language that you're using. You should just understand the 196 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:02,880 language very well. I still see a lot of people 197 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,680 programming in languages where it's clear that they don't 198 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,080 really grasp a lot of the basics still. 199 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,640 And that means not only that you're limited in what you can 200 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,720 express in your own code, it also means it becomes a lot 201 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,320 harder to understand other people's code. 202 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:20,160 So one thing that taught me a tremendous amount of stuff was 203 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,160 reading other people's code. And not just anyone, but for 204 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,640 example, the open source frameworks that you use that you 205 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,040 know, have been authored by experienced people that have 206 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,640 been sort of Spring in my case, it's not only a framework that I 207 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,200 know very well because I use it. I've actually read a lot of the 208 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,600 code to understand how it works. But then that that taught me a 209 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,360 lot of patterns also. Oh, this is the way that they 210 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,320 approach is, hey, this seems to be the similar type of problem, 211 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,400 but in a different domain. But I see that the approach that 212 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:49,920 they take to solve it is similar. 213 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,960 So you learn about these patterns, these use cases. 214 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,200 I would start with that because it's going to be overwhelming if 215 00:09:55,200 --> 00:10:00,240 you're going to try to start as an architect that needs to think 216 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,680 about everything, right? You cannot think about, OK, this 217 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:06,280 thing needs to be coded, but I also need to think about the 218 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,080 build and I need to think about the CD because it needs to be 219 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,240 deployed to an environment. And then I need to think about 220 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:13,680 how will it actually run in that environment and how we're going 221 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:16,080 to make sure that it is, that it is up and that we can observe 222 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:17,920 it. And then I need to, it's just 223 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,840 too much. So I think a very natural way 224 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,600 for most developers will be to start with just developing the 225 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,440 functionality and leave all of that other stuff builds, run 226 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,160 times, operations, leave that to other people. 227 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,000 And then over time, in my case, not even on purpose, but just 228 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,920 how it goes, you will you will learn about that stuff because 229 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,080 you need to pick it up because someone else is not there to do 230 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,760 it for you or because you find that you are indeed interested 231 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:44,480 in it. In my case, observability has 232 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,000 been something that over the last seven years I spend a lot 233 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,560 of time diving and just because I I really enjoy doing it. 234 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,320 It turned out that stuff like building dashboards based on 235 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,960 metrics is something that once I learned that it could be done 236 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,680 with because this is not something that was really 237 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:00,800 available 10 years ago. But now with all of the tooling 238 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,520 that's there, it's, it's quite straightforward. 239 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:04,760 Yeah, I found it really enjoyable. 240 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,600 So it was again a combination of, OK, I see that this stuff 241 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,800 becomes important. It it provides real value for 242 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,080 customers who can also see things also business metrics, 243 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,680 not just operational metrics, but it's also interesting to 244 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:18,360 learn. And there is a lot that I don't 245 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,280 know yet that I think I can get into. 246 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,440 Yeah, just start, start with the basics, learn it properly and 247 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:25,640 then take it from there, I would say. 248 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,240 But learning it properly is, I think is, is indeed something 249 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,840 that I find really important. And I, I do see a lot of people 250 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,320 skipping because they, a lot of people, I think are also asked 251 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,560 to be not experts in one thing, but to do a little bit of 252 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:40,560 everything. And when you start as a junior 253 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,000 and you don't learn anything deep, but your, your attention 254 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,600 is just spread across everywhere. 255 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,160 It's really hard to, to do this. And you'll see that with people, 256 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,240 for example, who are working in two people teams at some 257 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,200 startup, right? If you start there as a junior, 258 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:55,600 you're, you're supposed to do everything. 259 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,560 But so you do learn a lot, but you you learn only in a, in a 260 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:02,000 very broad sense, and you don't ever go deep. 261 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,120 That's how I started. Like I I started in OPS and I 262 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,800 got to touch on a lot of systems and then I moved more to 263 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,080 software engineering. But it was also front and back. 264 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,400 It was immediately kind of the whole stack and cloud. 265 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,160 Yeah, exactly. Thinking of a lot of things. 266 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,640 And that's, I think now if you want to do that nowadays, it's 267 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,400 just you're, you cannot go deep down you're. 268 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:22,800 Going to be overwhelmed. Yeah, you're going to be 269 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,280 overwhelmed. Just look at. 270 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,160 I mean, the front end nowadays is even that in itself to 271 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:29,200 keeping up with what's. Happening. 272 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,360 It's quite a beast. It's huge, Yeah, it's huge and 273 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,280 it's happening and it's happening so quickly. 274 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,080 Also just catching up and making sure we had a a discussion 275 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,280 yesterday someone told me that they were somewhere where they 276 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,760 were still working on an Angular GS Angular one. 277 00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:46,480 Oh wow. For example. 278 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,720 That's the sort of thing like from that is no different in 279 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,680 that sense from back end. You, you have legacy there as 280 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:54,040 well and stuff moves really quickly and you need to 281 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:55,440 understand why you're doing things. 282 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,840 But again with AI, it's also easy to just say, well, you 283 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:03,000 know, we're using some stack. It involves React and just give 284 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,400 me something that seems to work and yeah. 285 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,720 It's a quick win. It's a quick win for now, yeah, 286 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,440 Yeah. And it depends a lot. 287 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,360 Also the one of the other things, apart from like mastery, 288 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,680 one of the things I think that really defines how I work and 289 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:17,800 what I find important is is also pragmatism. 290 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,560 You need to understand always the context of which you're 291 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:23,040 working in. And sometimes we work, or 292 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,920 actually quite often we work on big systems that need to support 293 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,800 mission critical processes that need to be developed and 294 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,440 maintained for many years. So then a lot of this stuff is 295 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,080 important, but you also need to recognize that maybe now I'm 296 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,840 building something that will be replaced in a year, but for now 297 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,800 we just need a solution. You shouldn't apply the same 298 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,360 principles then. I think that's also very 299 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:45,880 important. How do you handle those 300 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,280 conversations? Because I've been in 301 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,240 conversations with regards to pre sales and customers and I 302 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,240 have people where their discipline is like cloud 303 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,440 infrastructure. And I can see they look at the 304 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,320 problem through their lens, right? 305 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,800 If it's AWS, they go Dynamo DB, we can run it there And like 306 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,280 those immediately those infrastructure components come 307 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,080 in. And then I come in with regards 308 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,920 to, OK, do we have metrics on which users use which components 309 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,440 and what's the traffic? And then can we go just with 310 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,000 this component and then live as fast as possible and then build 311 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,520 from there? Like I have a very different 312 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,160 approach. And then we have the 313 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,160 conversations, you'll get defensive and I call people out 314 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:20,800 when they get defensive. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not 315 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,600 trying to attack your judgement or whatever. 316 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,320 I just think this is what we need. 317 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,360 And then this is good enough. And they're like, well, but this 318 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,240 is robust and scalable. And like, those conversations 319 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,600 for me are always challenging. It is challenging, but I think 320 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,200 it is the way to do it. You need to have that 321 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,280 conversation. I was not my previous job, but 322 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,800 the job before that I started to work as an internal consultant 323 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,960 for the the Natal onset bunk. So that's in English. 324 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,400 That would be like the Dutch bank, but they're not an actual 325 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,840 commercial bank. They are actually a government 326 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,000 organization that governs all of the banks and other financial 327 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,400 institutions in the Netherlands. And this was one of those 328 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,640 traditional government organization where there would 329 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,480 be like, every other week someone would celebrate their 330 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,520 25th anniversary within the company. 331 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:05,920 Right. People have been working there 332 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,440 unbelievably forever. Yeah. 333 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,560 And that was true also for a lot of the developers. 334 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,880 And I started to work there when I was around 25 years old and 335 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,520 very fresh, yeah, very fresh. And basically my job was to tell 336 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,240 those people how to work or how to start working in a different 337 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,640 way. So that that felt, that felt 338 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,000 exactly the same. Like, OK, so now I need to, to 339 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,360 start to persuade people with 2025 years of experience in what 340 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,640 they're doing, in listening to me. 341 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,160 And, and, and again, the way I think that that I managed to do 342 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,120 that because it turned out that it, it was possible and actually 343 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,160 quite successful to do that is to make sure indeed that you 344 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,200 don't just tell people we're going to do it this way, we're 345 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,480 going to do it that way. You need to convince them and 346 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,320 they need to also be on board. But you do that with arguments. 347 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,760 You always have to explain your reasoning. 348 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,440 You always have to be able to say, I'm thinking about these 349 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,480 and these end goals. Therefore, I think that these 350 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,320 and these things are important requirements to take into 351 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,760 consideration, but these other things are not based on this. 352 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,480 I think that we can go this or this way and also have a way to 353 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,920 verify the results. So what what you're saying, for 354 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,920 example, what I really like is get something out as quickly as 355 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,480 possible. If you have that, it's it's much 356 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:23,360 easier to iterate on something that works than to work for a 357 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,560 very long time on something where you don't really see the 358 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,840 intermediate results, Right. This is why big projects fail 359 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,040 very often. Still in IT, everyone just says, 360 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,680 yeah, yeah, we're 80% there and for months, for months. 361 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:34,920 Yeah, exactly. Incredible. 362 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,440 It doesn't work. You need to have something out. 363 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,040 You need to have something working and you can almost 364 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,640 always do that, I think, but you need to think about how to do 365 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,120 it. So then you can show people that 366 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,040 stuff works and then you can gain their confidence and they 367 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,200 get on board and they become enthusiastic because they see, 368 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,440 oh, actually this is a much nicer way of working than what 369 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,680 I'm used to, but it's baby steps. 370 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,480 And yeah, you need to that that sort of consultancy aspects of 371 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,280 getting people on board and open to change is tricky, but it can 372 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,000 be very rewarding if it works, I think. 373 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,359 I feel like it's it's a skill that is quite interesting 374 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,920 because you need to be able to communicate properly to 375 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,359 different audiences, upper management or your peers. 376 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,560 Software engineers specifically, and maybe even more so people in 377 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,040 tech have this bullshit detector. 378 00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:20,880 So if you're selling them something that they don't 379 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,359 believe in because you don't have that depth, then it's also 380 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:24,520 a problem. You can't just be great at 381 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,160 communicating, you need to have deep knowledge with. 382 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:28,800 Absolutely. That's one of the reasons that I 383 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,520 like my my current job is that I get to do all of these things at 384 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,360 in a single position because I like developing, but I don't 385 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:37,640 want to be a full time code writer. 386 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,280 Yeah, no, I I want to be hands on, but I don't want to do it 387 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,160 all the time. I want to have also be involved 388 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,200 with customer discussions. I want to have like an account 389 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:47,760 manager like role with my customers. 390 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,840 I want to be able to do this sort of mentoring and coaching. 391 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,000 I like still delivering trainings as well. 392 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,480 And Oh, my career job allows me to actually combine. 393 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,480 All of that I do a lot, yeah. I don't get to choose and it's 394 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,320 also laziness. Maybe sometimes I, I, I don't 395 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,480 really make very deliberate choices in my career and that's 396 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,520 never been the case. It's always just happened sort 397 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,560 of to me, but what I really like is that it, it does allow me to 398 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,160 combine all of these different things and they sometimes they 399 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,520 do actually interact with each other and, and enhance each 400 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,240 other in a very nice way, right? If you're, if you're used to 401 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,480 delivering a lot of trainings, it means you are used to not 402 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,600 only explaining things to people, but also just to speak 403 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,240 in public. So it becomes easier to become a 404 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,960 public speaker. When you do that, you'll learn 405 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,920 that it's actually important that you know what you're 406 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:36,560 talking about, but you don't need to be an expert at 407 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,800 everything, right? Very often people for a start 408 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,760 with public speaking, they think like, oh, but I need to be a 409 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,080 super expert in order to share something useful with people and 410 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,000 otherwise they will just know I'm bullshitting. 411 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:51,240 But this is not the case at all. But that's the sort of stuff I 412 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,960 think that if you do a lot of that different things. 413 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,560 Yeah, you, you build up a broad from that. 414 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,600 People talk about this deep profile and actually thought 415 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,440 about it before going into this podcast, like because you had a 416 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,720 question like what what sort of defines how you work? 417 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,600 And I think it's that my not my goal because I don't think it's 418 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,640 AT org. My ambition sort of is to say 419 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,160 instead of like AT like profile, I actually want to have the the 420 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,360 top of the T, But then then it needs to be brought. 421 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,680 I want to be both broad and deep at everything. 422 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,800 And you can't. But that's why I think it's, 423 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,200 it's so nice that you can get focus from the work that you do 424 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,520 right. I don't need to know everything 425 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,560 about everything. I need to know everything about 426 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,000 the stuff I actually use on a day-to-day basis. 427 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,680 And even then everything is probably a bit much. 428 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:37,440 But now I'm still very often people will come to me before 429 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:38,920 they Google, right? That's that's why that's. 430 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,160 A good sign? Yeah, that's a good sign. 431 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,840 I think yeah, yeah, for me. So the, the depth is always 432 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,000 something that I I think is interesting and I can go deep 433 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,840 based on customer problems. And then I always have this kind 434 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,720 of internal struggle because should I need to know this in 435 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,640 advance or is this fine and can I go deep? 436 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,080 And then what is time that is too long before I reach out to 437 00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,920 colleagues and like ask for help and stuff like that? 438 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,760 That's also something I like to explain people or when I coach 439 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,120 developers, indeed, it's always spend some time first yourself 440 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,960 because that's typically where you learn the most, right? 441 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,960 If someone just provides you with an answer, do this and it 442 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,520 works, then you're learning why or what could have tried. 443 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,640 But you also don't want to have someone, especially when they 444 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,960 work remote, for example, who just struggles for a day at 445 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,680 home. And it turns out that there was 446 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,320 some small thing that that you could have solved with them like 447 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,040 in 15 minutes. So I think it's always good to 448 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,040 get feedback and ask questions, but always make sure that you, 449 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,920 you, you know what you're asking, right? 450 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,520 You don't just go to the first error or something doesn't work 451 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,800 And you immediately say, can someone help me out? 452 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,960 That you first look into it and you think, oh, maybe I can 453 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,000 understand it or I can't. And then once you have an 454 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,800 understanding of the problem, but you don't know how to fix 455 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,200 it, that's the time I think that you can ask for, for help. 456 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,760 I've always tried to make sure that it becomes a learning 457 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,160 experience where I ask for help instead of just someone saying, 458 00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:56,760 but it could be stupid things as well, right? 459 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:02,000 I had even my, my CEO who is also very technical, actually he 460 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,320 just before his holiday, he wanted to get something fixed 461 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,520 and he got to me on Slack. It was like literally his last 462 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,560 day before he left. And he said something is off, 463 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,320 but I don't see it. Maybe you see it and he needed 464 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,400 to change a Git URL from SSH to HTTPS, and he forgot to replace 465 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,200 a colon with a slash. Yeah, yeah. 466 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,840 That's the sort of basic that can take half a day if you don't 467 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,040 see it and you're just struggling. 468 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,560 And that's the that's why you need help. 469 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,480 That's why you need to ask someone else for help. 470 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,840 You shouldn't be working on that sort of stuff for for too long. 471 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,680 I think that yeah, if it really comes to yeah, understanding the 472 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,200 technology that you're using it, it's worth spending some time 473 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,040 on. And that's what I find really 474 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:40,880 important. So also when I have people on my 475 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:47,280 team that are junior or meteor but not senior yet, I always 476 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,280 give them some time for this. I always tell them don't stress 477 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,000 out right If if you don't get something to work or if there is 478 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,160 an error in there, just spend some time on it. 479 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,440 Just try to figure it out and then explain to me what you've 480 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,480 done and especially if they're able to explain it and you can 481 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,520 see if they learn anything. Yeah, Yeah. 482 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,040 I like that you put a lot of importance on also people's own 483 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,560 kind of personal development and growth within a team. 484 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,600 I feel like that's very important, not just to be part 485 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,080 of a team that is kind of continuously learning, but also 486 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,400 for there to be room and space. Yeah, but that last part, 487 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,360 usually when there's high pressure, people are looking 488 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:20,120 towards business outcomes faster. 489 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,200 You might not be even optimal team size and then pressure gets 490 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,000 high. Yeah, But there needs to be kind 491 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,880 of a fine balance between learning, growing. 492 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,720 Yeah, it depends a lot indeed on on how your project is run, how 493 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,760 it's being perceived to run also. 494 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,680 Yeah, that's true. And I'm in the lucky position 495 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,440 that the customers that I've I'm, I'm working with right now 496 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,160 have a very deep trust in what we're doing. 497 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,160 And we're working more like a partnership relationship in 498 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,960 there with them rather than a vendor's supplier sort of role. 499 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:50,920 That's the best. And that's, yeah, that's ideal 500 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,960 because you can have open discussions. 501 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,800 You don't have to upfront explain everything that you're 502 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,480 going to do just so that they can trust that you're doing the 503 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,400 right thing. It also means that I think for 504 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,720 six years ago already, maybe even more, we stopped doing 505 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,120 estimations for for stories, for individual stories, of course we 506 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:10,480 estimate like, oh, we're. Going to have. 507 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,280 Something I see how how big is this, but just high over indeed 508 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,840 we had for this integration project. 509 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,960 So we started traditional scrum. So we did the whole planning 510 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,040 poker thing, and in the end, someone from a partner company 511 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,440 actually said this doesn't make any sense. 512 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,840 You're just spending a lot of time talking about stuff where 513 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,880 you don't know what it's going to be anyways, because the 514 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,560 integration is a really tricky domain. 515 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,840 You're always depending on other partners, on other companies 516 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,440 that need to set stuff up. Can we even access this external 517 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,320 system already? Do we have credentials for it? 518 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,480 Do they have documentation? You're going to run into 519 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,520 problems all the time. Everything gets blocked, and 520 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,200 then you need to fix up something while you wait for 521 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,480 that to become unblocked. And then in the end, every 522 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,880 estimate becomes like, yeah, well, three points. 523 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,320 It's just, it's, it's waste. It's waste. 524 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,760 And in the end what you want to do is you want to reduce that 525 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,520 waste, of course. So we have a very well, I think 526 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,840 Agile is sort of a dead work, but we have a very flexible way 527 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,040 of working as more Kanban lifestyle where we do take some 528 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,800 of the aspects of Scrum that we like. 529 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,000 Like every three weeks we do three-week sprints or 530 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,440 iterations. We still do a presentation and 531 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,600 the demo just so that everyone is aware of what it is that 532 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,720 we're doing. It's also a nice point for us to 533 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,320 show to everyone in the team what we have been doing because 534 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,720 not everyone might be aware. We do daily standups as well, 535 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,440 but we don't do stuff like indeed, the estimation we don't 536 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,640 have burn downs. We also don't worry about, oh, 537 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,880 we thought we would have finished this in three weeks, 538 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,320 but well, turned out that it got blocked and now it's not 539 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,880 finished. Oh, OK, then it's not finished 540 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,360 that we'll pick it up when it's ready. 541 00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:44,680 Yeah, we'll keep going. And I really like that way of 542 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,760 working rather than the the real traditional way of doing Scrum 543 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,120 because I've I've seen it go wrong also on our summer run 544 00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:53,960 projects so often that's I don't really want to do that anymore. 545 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,960 I feel like it's, it's similar to what we discussed with 546 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,400 regards to kind of being really good at communicating and then 547 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,200 having depth knowing what you're talking about. 548 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,240 Because the communicating part, a lot of agile coaches that I've 549 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,360 seen and perceived, they have that down. 550 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,080 And then there's the depth missing on why are we doing 551 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,320 story points in the 1st. Place and it's it's not just an 552 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:13,840 IT problem. I think it's a problem that's 553 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,480 happening everywhere. There's for example, person I 554 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,160 really like in how what he writes and what he thinks about 555 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,120 is bear to bear in the Netherlands. 556 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:26,400 He also has an English social media accounts that he publishes 557 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,520 on a lot on various things. But one of the things that he's 558 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,920 talking about, and I see this in IT, but I see this in other 559 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,640 things within government, for example, there is no more 560 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,440 expertise. Government used to be an expert 561 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,360 at a lot of things. For example, in the, all of the 562 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,720 bridges that needed to be maintained in the dykes, they 563 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,640 would have people themselves that knew how to do this. 564 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:50,280 And over time, all of that has been outsourced, has been going 565 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,560 away. And now they don't even have the 566 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,640 expertise anymore to verify the results of the work that they 567 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:56,880 outsource. That's a problem. 568 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,680 And that is a real problem. You're but it's, I think 569 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,600 something that has been seen in many different areas, right? 570 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,280 It's in government, but you saw the same thing in healthcare. 571 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,720 My, my mother has been working in healthcare for decades, and 572 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,360 she saw that same thing happening there, where managers 573 00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:15,680 were just thought to be generic process managers, right? 574 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,680 You don't need to understand the process you're managing. 575 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,320 You need to just understand management. 576 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,040 And that happens in IT. It happens in healthcare, it 577 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,240 happens in the government. It happens everywhere where 578 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,360 this, this notion of, yeah, you have to understand what you're 579 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:30,720 doing and be good at it. It's just something that is 580 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,960 perceived as, yeah, but we can just outsource that, right? 581 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,760 We just need to manage contracts and then have regular goals 582 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,960 about are we still on schedule and, and and that's the 583 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,400 management part of it. And that doesn't really work in 584 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,280 it. I think that's also why I think 585 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,800 as a manager, I'm in the Mt of of our company. 586 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,920 Yeah, you don't necessarily need to be like the best expert at 587 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,160 everything, but you definitely need to have the actual hands on 588 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,000 experience of what it means to be in IT. 589 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,760 Otherwise I don't think you can. Same thing with people who are 590 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,400 in sales, right? It can be tempting to think 591 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,200 that, well, if you're a good salesman, you can sell 592 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,720 everything, but then indeed you're going to end up like 593 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,560 you're saying with these people who have the bullshit detector. 594 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,080 They're just trying to sell me. They don't even know what 595 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,000 they're selling. Especially if you're trying to 596 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,360 sell custom software development, which is a really, 597 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,720 as we found a really tricky service to sell because people 598 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,520 are not looking for a company who can just build software. 599 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,800 People are looking for, oh, I have a insurance problem or I 600 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,120 have a problem with lotteries or I have a problem where I need to 601 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:39,040 have a, a system that checks if you can answer all of your 602 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,440 driving license. Do you read exams? 603 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,480 Correct, right. That's, that's what what 604 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,400 customers see. But in the end, and I think 605 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,320 that's happened quite, quite quickly in the last couple of 606 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,720 years, in the end, companies tend to realize, but that is 607 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,160 actually an IT problem. Yeah. 608 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,320 I feel like slowly and especially with newer companies, 609 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,480 the people that are in leadership teams or managers, 610 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,840 they're not necessarily experts anymore. 611 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,000 No, but they definitely do have expertise. 612 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,160 Like there's a lot of value in having managers and also 613 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,520 expertise on what they're managing for the people that are 614 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:10,480 doing the actual. Work. 615 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,000 Yeah, the I see the same thing for example with my product 616 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,680 owner from Das Lotteries. He's actually someone who can by 617 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,720 himself analyse our production logs. 618 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,000 If something is off, yeah, make an estimated guess on what is 619 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,680 happening. And then after that comes to me 620 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,240 and say, can you have a look at this? 621 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,800 Because I think we need to fix over there or maybe someone else 622 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:34,800 needs to do something over there. 623 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,240 But he's basically already done the analysis. 624 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,440 And that's, that helps so much because it means that you can 625 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,880 also get to focus a lot more on the work that you want to do, 626 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,200 new development. That's rather than just putting 627 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,560 out fires everywhere or analyzing things for other 628 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,000 people. And again, because this is the 629 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,800 business I'm currently in integration, this, this can very 630 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,920 quickly run out of hand where you're just spending half of 631 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,600 your day explaining stuff to other clients or to downstream 632 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,160 systems that you need to integrate with. 633 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,880 And in the end, it turns out there was, it had nothing to do 634 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,000 with the thing that you were doing. 635 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,200 So that's another reason I think that it's important for people 636 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,400 indeed to who are involved in these sort of things to, to know 637 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:18,960 what they are doing. Yeah. 638 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,160 I feel like if I were to start my career and I wanted to do 639 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,800 software engineering again, there's a lot of integration 640 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,920 problems that need to be solved. And the part of that is kind of 641 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,360 resiliency and observability and security. 642 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,160 But a lot of engineering work is going to go and I think also in 643 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:35,960 the future, more into integration work. 644 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,120 We have now a lot of software as a service companies, but also AI 645 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,520 providers and everyone needs integration. 646 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,160 You also see that those companies that are for example, 647 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,000 their core is an AI model with their core is chat bot AI, 648 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,280 something they are hiring people on staff, they call them forward 649 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,240 deployed engineers, which are basically integration engineers 650 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,520 and they come into an organization, kind of ask 651 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,880 consultants, they do the integration work and then they 652 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,040 leave. I feel like a lot of people are, 653 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,160 yeah, kind of looking for integration. 654 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,120 It's also a lot of work that we do tends to either be centered 655 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,240 around integration, like my own project, or even if it's not an 656 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,400 integration project, still a big component is always integration. 657 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,880 Because, yeah, especially in enterprise, right, software is 658 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,040 everywhere. So you're no longer working on 659 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,960 isolated little islands that just run by themselves on a 660 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,960 machine that is under someone's desk. 661 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:27,560 Everything. Everything needs to be 662 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,440 integrated indeed. I feel like if you were like, if 663 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,320 you get really good at the integration work then you've 664 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,000 solved a lot of problems I feel like. 665 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,800 And when it comes to learning, for example, I think this is 666 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,800 after learning like basics of development and languages and 667 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,200 that sort of stuff. Learning integration patterns is 668 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,440 actually a great way of becoming more of a senior developer or or 669 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,080 slash architect, right? Thinking about what it means to 670 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,080 do stuff synchronously versus asynchronously. 671 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,600 What are the pros and cons there? 672 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,760 What options do you have on a technical level for integration? 673 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,280 Is it going to be based on Http://web socket? 674 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,040 It's going to be based on message oriented middleware. 675 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,480 What are the patterns for using message oriented middleware? 676 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,880 What's the difference between point to point versus pops up? 677 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,040 What technologies do exist there? 678 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,960 What is actually suitable for stuff like edge computing where 679 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,560 you have a huge amount of clients sending in information 680 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,760 versus just doing point to point between two big applications. 681 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,640 All of that sort of stuff is is around integration knowledge 682 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,560 basically and indeed it's it's quite important and it's also 683 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,600 much more available nowadays. One of the things I really like 684 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:38,000 as a as an architect about the fact that so many clients, 685 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,360 organizations are moving to cloud computing is that using 686 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,400 something like Mises or in the middleware is just something you 687 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,560 enable toggle. Yeah, it's just toggle. 688 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,000 There's already credit card there. 689 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,920 You can just pay for it. Where I've been with a lot of 690 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,800 clients in the past where they were just running stuff on their 691 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,640 own data center and the small operations team responsible for 692 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,640 things where you would go to them and you would say, you 693 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,600 know, I have this use case now that we're building, for 694 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:07,800 example, with the the Dutch Financial Times, we have once 695 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,240 built their entire website what they were still using their old 696 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,600 content management system. So whenever the content 697 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,720 management system would either publish a new article, news 698 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,520 article or make an update to an existing article, we needed all 699 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,280 of our application instances to know about that so that could 700 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,080 drop their cash and refresh it. This is a classic pops up 701 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,960 message use case, right? So we said, OK, what do you have 702 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,880 for messaging system? No, we don't. 703 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,280 OK, can you just install something, maybe revving Q, 704 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,200 active Q, whatever, because we would really like to have a 705 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,960 little pops up system here set up so they can do this and say, 706 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,000 well, no, we're not going to do that because well, we're three 707 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,600 people. We're already struggling with 708 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,720 the stuff that we have right now. 709 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,240 We're not just going to introduce an entirely new piece 710 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,640 of middleware because you asked us to, which makes sense. 711 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,320 I mean, from their point of view, I can completely 712 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,760 understand that. But it means that well, I cannot 713 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,240 use the best technology for the job and now I need to like an 714 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,080 idiot manually do like individual requests to all of 715 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,520 the endpoints that all of a sudden need to know. 716 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,840 Whereas I I don't have to deal with anything like this. 717 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,680 And with cloud, this is not a problem anymore. 718 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,440 Everyone has either something like if you're on AWS, you have 719 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,800 SQSSNS or they're running some form of Kafka which is really 720 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,040 popular nowadays, or there is Rabbit MQ, or there is something 721 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,480 else with because it's not important what which thing there 722 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:30,560 is. It's just important that there 723 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,040 is such a technology in place and there's there's abstractions 724 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,360 and adapters everywhere nowadays. 725 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,480 So integrating something like this in your application is 726 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:38,760 peanuts. Yeah. 727 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,840 I feel like I really like that story because it highlights, I 728 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,080 think a really good thinking in the 1st place with regards to 729 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,600 the total cost of ownership. And if we don't have, it should 730 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,200 be really added. If there's a really good use 731 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,880 case, then likely it's yes, because that burden is going to 732 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,640 be somewhere in the 1st place anyway. 733 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,480 And I feel like now it's a good thing that infrastructure is 734 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,800 becoming more accessible. And it also has that dark side 735 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,840 where I feel like people can over engineer systems and 736 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,880 resiliency where it's not necessarily needed. 737 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,920 Like that conversation of cost of ownership, even on the cloud 738 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,239 should still be a conversation. And then yes, it can be easier 739 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:12,000 to add to it. It's a. 740 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,239 Similar thing where with micro service there's still 741 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,040 conversation there like OK, how many do we need and how big do 742 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,760 they need to be. I remember something like 3 743 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,920 years ago, not that long ago, we had a go to Amsterdam, that's 744 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,639 conference that we used to work recognize where there was a 745 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,880 speaker there who did a lot of micro service cloud native 746 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,159 architecture with Go. But one thing I still remember 747 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,880 very well because it was very different from how we use, how 748 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,000 we work, not even used to work how we still work is that to 749 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,679 connect to a database, they would never just open up a 750 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:44,800 database connection from their Go service. 751 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:50,520 They would actually build like a dedicated adapter service in 752 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,520 front of their database that they would expose over GRPC. 753 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,960 And then over that GRPC you could actually make the calls to 754 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,680 the database. And it sounded completely weird 755 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,240 to me, but then he started to explain and he said, yeah, well, 756 00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:06,240 actually we found that at that time at least the the the 757 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:08,320 database supporting Go isn't actually that great when it 758 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,080 comes to things like connection pools and validation. 759 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,160 And we found that, well, some something like Java's actually 760 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,440 really good at that. So just building a Java series 761 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,040 for that put the GRPC front and and and everything else is Go. 762 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,520 So that I found that very interesting because it shows a 763 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,200 very different way of thinking about granularity and how big 764 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,160 should service be and what does that mean? 765 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,320 And there is no right or wrong way, but they but you do need to 766 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,440 think about it indeed and see what are the trade-offs when we 767 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:34,360 start doing this. Yeah. 768 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,440 That's why I think it's super important that the people that 769 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,640 build the software, they also are responsible for like running 770 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,480 it and owning it and also in production. 771 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,720 Yeah. And and I mean, I agree in the 772 00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:48,280 sense that I don't think that people need to be always like on 773 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:49,800 call for their own software, for example. 774 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,760 But one thing for example, that the way I very much agree with 775 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,880 is whenever we have someone interviewing with us for 776 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,480 example, and they come from banking or insurance like 777 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,360 traditional sort of enterprises, I always ask them, were you able 778 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,840 to just even see the log files on production for the software 779 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,040 that you were building? And still so often I get, well, 780 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,120 no, not directly, but if there was a problem, we could file a 781 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,760 request and someone would make an export of a part of the logs 782 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,200 and they would ship it to us. Like, fuck, if that's your, if 783 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,840 that's the way that they, they do, they do trust you to build 784 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,840 the software that runs your production, but they don't trust 785 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,040 you to actually look at it running. 786 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,800 That's strange, right? It's completely insane. 787 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,080 They actively break the feedback loop and you have no idea what 788 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,040 what your stuff is doing. And that's another thing I try 789 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,280 to cultivate in people indeed, is make sure that you, once you 790 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,240 actually build it, that you look at it and make sure that you can 791 00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:43,440 see what it's doing. And if you find out that, well, 792 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,240 you cannot see it properly, think about what you need to do 793 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:48,760 to make sure that you can see it at logging, at metrics, 794 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,560 whatever. Because, yeah, I think that is 795 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,960 super important for people. Once you move beyond junior is 796 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,640 you need to, you need to build that feedback loop for yourself 797 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,840 where you can understand what the stuff that you build is 798 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,680 actually doing in a real environment. 799 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,640 And if you don't have that, if that's missing, and there are a 800 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,240 lot of companies where this is missing, people just don't see 801 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,560 what their stuff is doing. Yeah, you're never going to move 802 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,640 beyond a certain level. No, I agree. 803 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,720 You mentioned that you wouldn't necessarily put the people that 804 00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:19,840 create the software also in the role of being on call duty. 805 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:20,400 No. Why? 806 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,360 Why is that? Because I think a lot of a lot 807 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,040 of problems that we typically see that people that are on call 808 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,840 need to deal with are not about there is a bug in the software 809 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,640 that we need to fix immediately and roll out. 810 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,560 It's about other stuff in the integration business that I'm in 811 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,840 right now. Typically it's not us, it's 812 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,680 downstream system that is struggling. 813 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,800 But then that means the queues are filling up or maybe some 814 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,400 threat pool is running out of threats because some system is 815 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,000 just super slow. Now everything starts stalling 816 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:50,920 and that causes certain things to happen. 817 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,240 But it's not that often the case that that the developer will be 818 00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:57,600 able to efficiently deal with that. 819 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,400 And they might also not have like the complete overview of 820 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,680 the entire platform rather than the system that they are 821 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,880 responsible for to make these sort of decisions. 822 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,120 So I think there is still a value in separating those roles. 823 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,840 And I still see a couple of years ago when DevOps started to 824 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,960 become a term, people made fun of companies who had a DevOps 825 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,640 team because the whole point of DevOps was that you didn't have 826 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,080 a DevOps team anymore, but that it was development and 827 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,280 operations doing stuff together. Rather than saying, Oh yeah, 828 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:25,640 you're now, you're now the DevOps are. 829 00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:27,760 But I think that's changed DevOps. 830 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,960 The meaning of DevOps itself has changed quite significantly 831 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,240 actually. DevOps now means way more things 832 00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:37,160 like infrastructure as a software doing stuff with 833 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,040 terraform, automatic provisioning of, of entire 834 00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:43,600 environments. And, and again, that it makes 835 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,560 sense to say, Oh yeah, that's not something that every 836 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,520 developer can be expected to know about and to be an expert. 837 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,440 And so we need people for that and that's dev OPS as at least 838 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,240 as far as I'm concerned, a lot of that is what we now call dev 839 00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:58,600 OPS. And it makes a lot more sense to 840 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,200 have those type of people on call. 841 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,960 And I don't need to also be experts at the system that they 842 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,920 are operating that they just need to know like the basics of 843 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,040 what is, what are the metrics that we need to watch in the 844 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,000 health checks and what should we do if certain known issues 845 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,720 arise. And only as a like a third line, 846 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,720 you go to a developer and you say, well, I think this is 847 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:19,400 actually something in the software that you need to fix. 848 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,360 Yeah, it's interesting because I followed this training from 849 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,480 Gregor Hope. It was a couple weeks ago and he 850 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:29,080 was in a company responsible for a team of architects and they 851 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,680 had done something which needed to have kind of an on call duty 852 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,640 for and their OPS team didn't want to do it. 853 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,120 So then he was like, OK, then we'll we'll do it ourselves. 854 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,040 And he did not, He had enough political credit to be able to 855 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,240 do that in the 1st place. And then his team was like, 856 00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:43,480 well, do we really want to do it? 857 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,520 And his mindset was we are responsible for kind of 858 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,080 architecting this thing and we also should have the confidence 859 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,360 that it should run Florida State. 860 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,640 No, that's true. Like build it Florida State 861 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,240 exactly you have easy on. Call. 862 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:56,840 No, that's why indeed why you should have the feedback loop. 863 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,520 And this is an even stronger feedback loop. 864 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,600 If you get called out of bed, of course, then if you could just 865 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,160 see what's happening. But yeah, but that makes sense. 866 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,720 That is important, but it's also true, I think that a lot of 867 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:09,800 things are not really about. It's indeed about what you 868 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,520 expect from an engineer from certain year. 869 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,800 If it's just about the software that they develop, that's a 870 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,720 different thing than. The entire system that you run 871 00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:18,080 and maintain and you can do both. 872 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,520 Amazon does this famously, right? 873 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,920 You build it, you run it, but I don't think it's necessarily the 874 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,800 best model for everyone. And that's not saying that it's 875 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,280 that you shouldn't do it. It's saying that I think for a 876 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,600 lot of typical more, let's say, enterprise use cases, that is 877 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,200 the business that I'm in. I think it still makes sense 878 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,400 indeed to separate some of these responsibilities. 879 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,000 Yeah, sometimes also for like regulatory or security reasons, 880 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,560 right? Maybe you don't want your 881 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,400 developers to be able to see and do everything that is possible 882 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,280 in a production environment, right? 883 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,600 I get that. Yeah. 884 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:51,800 And we've seen that a lot actually. 885 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,040 We have had customers also in financial industries dealing 886 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,480 with credit card payment gateway for example, where they needed 887 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,440 to have very strict regulations around for ICE principal who can 888 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,200 do what it needs to be audited. And then if you're going to say, 889 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,200 well, every new developer on the team, the first thing that we're 890 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,560 going to do is deploy to production, right, That that can 891 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,640 be a really nice practice. But it's yeah, in in this sort 892 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,800 of situation, it can be tricky. I feel like in, in whatever you 893 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,880 do, there's going to be risk. And then it's just how do we 894 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,000 mitigate that risk? Yeah. 895 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,440 Is it for a principle or is it something else where people are 896 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,360 still tracked but they still have that flexibility of going 897 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,520 to production? That is the conversation. 898 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,120 And this is also, I think very much why it's so important that 899 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,440 you that you know what you're doing, because then you can 900 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,000 properly estimate that risk. And I think it's a really good 901 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,080 point. I had AI did a keynote at Go to 902 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,640 myself a while ago where I said I think a lot of people 903 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:51,040 overvalue the return on investment that you get from 904 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,000 testing on non production environments. 905 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,320 Obviously you need to do tests, but a lot of people think that 906 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,880 OK, if we do this, if you do this in the right way, we will 907 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,640 never encounter some problem on production. 908 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,320 And if we do, then it will be very hard to fix because well, 909 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,360 once something reaches production, it's always 100 910 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,920 times or 1000 times harder to fix than if we find it during 911 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,720 development, for example. And in my experience, this is 912 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:21,720 not necessarily true at all. Actually, just yesterday I did 913 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,560 my final production deploy of this big integration platform 914 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,960 before my holiday starts, and I was checking if everything 915 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:30,760 worked. It's expected. 916 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,840 Now, I saw some unexpected errors there, and it turned out 917 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,720 that I actually introduced an error myself somewhere. 918 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:40,000 This was causing a problem in people during the day when they 919 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,640 would try to see the result of a ticket. 920 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,520 Like what did they win? So there's no nothing breaks in 921 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,160 the sense that there's no data issue or anything. 922 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,720 It's just that one small piece of functionality is no longer 923 00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:54,000 there. I think from the time that I 924 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,800 spotted the error in the production logs to getting a 925 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,680 production fix out with the fix of 20 minutes, yeah, tops 926 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,600 perfect. And if if you know that you can 927 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,640 do that, if you know that you have the experience, but also 928 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,360 the CICD capabilities and you have the access rights and 929 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,280 everything else in place that you can actually get these sort 930 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,600 of fixes out that quickly, then, well, how much time would you 931 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,480 actually want to invest in making sure that something like 932 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,440 this can cannot happen by putting all sorts of guard rails 933 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,040 and tests and everything in place? 934 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,560 Yeah. It's just you have to look at 935 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,440 the return on investment. And sometimes it's just not 936 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,840 worth it, No. It's interesting that like 937 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,960 speeding things up might make things more resilient, like on 938 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,400 the long term, which is a weird mindset, right? 939 00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,320 If we deploy to production faster, then what about all 940 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,080 these risk kind of affordances that we have in place? 941 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,040 Like are those going to be kind of sub converter or others not 942 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,200 going to be there? But then when you're talking 943 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,400 about this feedback loop, it's, it's so tangible, right? 944 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,840 You see an issue, you can immediately fix it. 945 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,680 Sure, maybe if we deploy faster we create more issues, but we 946 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,320 fix it faster and those issues will still be there if we deploy 947 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:03,200 less fast. Yeah. 948 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,280 And, and this is something that is also very hard to to explain 949 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,960 to both I think customers, but also regulators. 950 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:14,080 For example, within within those lotteries, we had an audit and 951 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,120 this was actually a while ago already. 952 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,160 We have several audits. But one thing that they want is 953 00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:23,200 whenever we deploy a new version of a service, which is something 954 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,000 that we we basically do all the time. 955 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,560 They required us whenever this service was involved with, for 956 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,560 example, the casino part of the of the lottery, that we would 957 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,280 have a hash or something of this thing and that we would report 958 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:39,840 what version was running in production. 959 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,080 So we've done that and they didn't want it just as text, 960 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,760 they wanted screenshots. So that was one of our DevOps 961 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,600 engineers has actually automated the process that whenever we go 962 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,080 to production now we're going to send screenshots of all of the 963 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,720 stuff that is in our Docker registry and show that it 964 00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:58,400 actually runs a reduction. But it means absolutely nothing. 965 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,720 It it, it's, it's completely pointless. 966 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,680 But it's just because these companies are used not to 967 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,320 regulate custom builds, enterprise software that gets 968 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,320 deployed on a very frequent basis. 969 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:12,920 They are used to regulating products. 970 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,480 And these products are maybe going to have two major releases 971 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,760 every year and three. Twice a year, that's. 972 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,600 Yeah. And we need to be absolutely 973 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,720 sure that the thing that they claim to have delivered is 974 00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:25,600 running in production. So you need to be able to prove 975 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,480 that. But yeah, for us, it's, it's 976 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,560 just fewer overhead. And what we see with customers 977 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,640 as well that sometimes they are already very scared to to put 978 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,640 new versions of something in in production because, well, the 979 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,200 thing that we have now actually works and there's a lot of 980 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,200 people using it and who knows what happened. 981 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,800 But yeah, you need to really educate your customers on this, 982 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,400 that the longer you wait and the longer you accumulate change, 983 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,880 higher actually the risk is going to be of course, well, if 984 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,400 you're doing it regularly, you become better at it because you 985 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,200 do it very often. The amount of changes that are 986 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,800 inside of everything will become a lot smaller and people will 987 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,320 still remember what was actually in there. 988 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,960 And I think the last 1 is really important, right? 989 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,840 If I'm going to deploy something and it it has changes from a 990 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,400 colleague who's not even on my team anymore that they made like 991 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,480 6 months ago, and now it's finally reaches production, 992 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,520 something is wrong with that. No one has a clue. 993 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:17,960 No. So then we really have to dig. 994 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,120 Yeah, we have to dig. We have to reverse engineer what 995 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,480 happened. Whereas if we're deploying every 996 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,000 week, every day, and something is wrong, then Oh yeah, I still 997 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,720 remember what I worked on. Now it must be that thing and 998 00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:32,720 then indeed my experience is that getting fixes out then is 999 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,160 is way way way quicker. I agree, yeah, it's interesting 1000 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,000 that with requirements like, OK, we need to really have evidence 1001 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,360 of what we deploy. That's a requirement. 1002 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,560 And then sure, you can think, OK, maybe that's strange and I 1003 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,640 don't really agree with it. But changing the system can also 1004 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,320 be hard and it requires time usually. 1005 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,840 And it's such an engineering mindset to then be like, but we 1006 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,200 really like fast deployments because of all these benefits, 1007 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:56,400 right? Quick changes. 1008 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,360 We know exactly what we deploy. We can kind of triangulate 1009 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,160 problems faster and get the fixes out faster. 1010 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,960 So we automate kind of this process of then giving you the 1011 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:06,760 evidence. And maybe that's not what the 1012 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,320 people want because they expect kind of, oh, maybe 2 screenshots 1013 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,600 of like twice a year deployments and then get overwhelmed. 1014 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,520 But yeah, that helps. Going to change the system then. 1015 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,120 Yeah, that's really good. And fortunately, I think for me, 1016 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:24,080 I don't have a very, a very large amount of experience in 1017 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,520 these regulatory environments. So this is the exception rather 1018 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,640 than the rule for me. What I've heard from a people, a 1019 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,200 lot of people who do more work and finance, for example, today, 1020 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,160 indeed they were, they're dealing with this all the time. 1021 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,480 And there have been some nice talks about it. 1022 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,200 Dave Farley, for example, is one of those people. 1023 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:45,440 He he invented the continuous deployment term. 1024 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:50,000 I think I wrote the book on it together with Jess Humble, but 1025 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,000 Dave Farley has written also a lot about how can you actually 1026 00:47:54,000 --> 00:48:00,360 work in a iterative, fast, often deployable fashion in a 1027 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,560 regulatory settings. And it basically means you have 1028 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,240 to work with the regulators to to say, OK, we understand what 1029 00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:08,280 you're asking now, but that's not the real thing that you're 1030 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,320 after. That's just your current way of 1031 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,720 getting the information that you need for your ultimate goal. 1032 00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:17,360 So what is your ultimate goal? And once we establish that, we 1033 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,120 can find out how we can actually meet that goal in a different 1034 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,800 way and, and get it to work. But this is not, this is not my 1035 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,840 area of expertise because fortunately I haven't had to do 1036 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:28,920 this that often. But I think it's it is very 1037 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,920 interesting because, yeah, if you just say we cannot do this 1038 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,040 because of regulations. And it's. 1039 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,440 Not good enough? No, it's not good. 1040 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,400 You need that depth. Explain it to me. 1041 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,480 Especially with engineers, for me it's really hard to do 1042 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,480 something without understanding. It's not good enough for your 1043 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,040 engineers, but in the end it's also not good enough for, well, 1044 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:47,480 your customers and your systems, of course. 1045 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,120 Yeah, you need to be able to work in the way that you want to 1046 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,280 work and still and meet these requirements. 1047 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,080 And it's possible, but it's it's, it's real work. 1048 00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,400 Yeah, it really depends on the environment. 1049 00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,880 I think especially for your career, if you want to 1050 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,520 accelerate, you need to be in environments where people have 1051 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,720 the patience and also the respect to educate each other 1052 00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:07,880 with regards to OK, this is the knowledge and try and create 1053 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,360 that shared understanding. There needs to be enough 1054 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,160 interesting problems also for you to learn and grow and not 1055 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,960 just work on kind of surface level and not being able to see 1056 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,160 logs in production, for example, not owe what you build. 1057 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,880 And I think that's really going to make or break your career 1058 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:23,360 acceleration. You can coast. 1059 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,280 Coasting is fine. Not everyone needs to kind of 1060 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:27,880 aim for the stars. With regards to growth, it 1061 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,120 depends on your environment, but if you're in a really good 1062 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:31,840 environment, it can really help your growth. 1063 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,040 That's mainly it. Yeah, yeah. 1064 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,880 And I think it's also, you can tell very often when, when you 1065 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,000 have people that have that drive and that it's, it's important 1066 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,520 also that they are able to do this because it, it becomes like 1067 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:47,280 a self accelerating effect. If, if people see the results 1068 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:53,640 of, of their efforts and then it, it sort of just bootstraps 1069 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,560 itself from there. But you can see the same thing 1070 00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,120 happening with people who indeed are, they're, they're, they're 1071 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,000 young and they're enthusiastic and they want to learn things, 1072 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,440 they want to do things. And then they end up in the 1073 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,480 situation where, Oh yeah, this is not really possible. 1074 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,240 Or by the time that you're working on something now, it it 1075 00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:10,800 won't be running in a production environment for half a year. 1076 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,560 And then that maybe not even because someone changed their 1077 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:15,840 mind, right. You see this sometimes in 1078 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,040 product development companies where you can be working on 1079 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,960 stuff that never makes, makes it into the light of day. 1080 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,680 Yeah, that's of course not very motivating. 1081 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,400 So, yeah, it's also important to so that people actually stay 1082 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,960 motivated to, to continuously improve themselves to the work. 1083 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,680 That you don't get motivated by doing the work, you get 1084 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,600 motivated by seeing the results of doing the work. 1085 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,080 And if you don't see those results, then yeah, it's really 1086 00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,320 hard to just keep going. Yeah, I mean, it makes me sad 1087 00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,360 that people can get stuck in an organization like that and 1088 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,560 think, OK, this is it and this is it. 1089 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,400 And the same is on the other side and the same. 1090 00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,120 I mentioned interviews before, like I always ask these 1091 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,080 questions to people from banks and insurance companies. 1092 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,880 I've had a couple of interviews also with people coming out of 1093 00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,120 these sort of organizations where I told them at the end, 1094 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,080 well, you know, we're going to make you an offer. 1095 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,520 You can accept it and not. But whatever you do, please 1096 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,320 leave your current job because the way that you're explaining 1097 00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,760 what you're doing, this is just not a good position to be in. 1098 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,320 And well, we can be a company that can do better for you 1099 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,720 hopefully. But there are many other 1100 00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:15,400 opportunities that are better as well. 1101 00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:17,480 Because sometimes people just don't know, right? 1102 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,520 If if you're, if you're in your first job and this is what 1103 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:20,840 you're used to and this is what you do. 1104 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,920 You think that, yeah, this is just the way that things work 1105 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,680 or. But but then you'll learn by 1106 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,200 talking to other people, like what is actually possible and 1107 00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,040 how could it also be. Yeah. 1108 00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:32,960 Yeah. Sometimes changing jobs is the 1109 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:34,960 easiest way of making things better. 1110 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,800 Of course, yeah. That's why I really like when 1111 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,520 people come on like you on podcasts like these, to share 1112 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:40,480 their perspective. Yeah. 1113 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,360 Because otherwise it's just if no one shares their perspective, 1114 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,080 you only know kind of what's within your organizational 1115 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:46,760 boundaries. Yeah. 1116 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:48,040 And that's true. Yeah. 1117 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:49,800 Thank you so much for coming on, man. 1118 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:50,920 I really enjoyed this. Yeah. 1119 00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:52,840 Good software engineering mastery. 1120 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:54,800 I feel like it's a long path. It's a hard path. 1121 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,720 There's continuous learning there as well, but once you have 1122 00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:00,360 really solid fundamentals, you can really excel and deliver. 1123 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:04,080 Yeah. And also, once you actually go 1124 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:08,360 beyond the basics, you start to learn the patterns and the the 1125 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,920 underlying abstractions, and then it actually becomes easier, 1126 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:13,680 right? If I need to learn a new 1127 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,240 programming language, now I don't, it's a very different 1128 00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:20,600 experience from someone who's just into computer engineering 1129 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:21,920 who needs to learn a language, right? 1130 00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,280 I can just. Yeah, that's from there. 1131 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:24,840 That's from there. They probably have that you know 1132 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,720 what to expect. So it's it gets better, it 1133 00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:30,440 compromise. It's like, yeah. 1134 00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,200 But it's also the message to people struggling. 1135 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,640 I think it gets better over. Time, yeah, and definitely you 1136 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,920 have to get through that hurdle if you're still here. 1137 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,000 Thank you so much for listening. Let us know in the comments 1138 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,520 section what you've thought of this episode. 1139 00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,080 Leave a like if you liked the episode and otherwise we'll see 1140 00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:43,760 you on the next one.