Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Aquila for
today's episode, we have a real thought-provoking one.
We cover purpose ethics values as well as the recent layoffs of
big tech companies. Joining me today is Dorothy
about our, she's a strategy, ethics consultant and loves
controversial questions. I'll put all her socials in the
description below. Check her out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode.
How often do you go to the mountains?
Because I've been to Switzerland twice and we don't have
mountains here, and I love going to the mountains.
Well, according to the Dutch definition of mountains that
from go to the mountains every day.
According. According to Swiss definition of
mountains, I don't go there often enough, so maybe once a
month, what? So that's it.
Go more often, yeah. Especially if there's like this.
Gloomy Cloud. I went to Italy during
Christmas. It's my girlfriend.
Half Italian, we went to her family and we were all.
So I felt like stuck in a cloud and then we went up the
mountain, all of a sudden. It was sunny, and I didn't know
what was happening. I've never experienced that
before. This is like, that's the term.
You can't imagine that over drink above.
It is such a beautiful world. It's like two worlds in one
place. Yeah.
And it's so like I felt like it was Doom and Gloom like and it
was it didn't look sunny at all. Until I you mentioned like we
drove up and we were above the clouds and I was like, the only
time I've done this was like I'm in a plane and then you can see
it already. Now, this is really this, always
what we need to remember when we suffer down here.
Blanket. We need to know it's not that
far. You just need to find a way to
to, you know, go through the clouds or through to fall, then
you will be a beautiful world. Yeah.
But is it is that normal like, in December issue like falling
winter? Always, do you say December
issue. Should say Remember December,
January February, but it has become a bit less intense and
less persistent. Thanks to climate change.
They say this is come to help us with that, at least.
So, yeah, we do. Really a lot of people really
suffer from a lack of daylight but I guess must be even worse.
In other words. It's so dark.
Yeah, it's vitamin D. It's a bit different.
Like, right now or previously used to rain more often and now
it rains less often but harder in a way.
Yeah, really hard and really harsh rains.
More extreme is more extreme and then also randomly, which we
would have son in. I don't know.
I felt like we skipped fall last year.
From Summer to Winter real quick.
Yeah, it's like the regular cycle, doesn't really happen
anymore. It's not, and I feel older and
older, when I say like a didn't used to be like that.
Talk about myself, being all species knows.
We won't dive into that. No worries.
But what do you do now? More on a day-to-day business
basis? Do you have like a lots of lots
of clients you work with? Well, this Generally is often
quite slow as self-employed person because, you know,
business don't really give away their tops etcetera.
But this year, I had a really intense started to generate.
I was busy defining sustainability, targets for
insurance company and that was really quite, yeah, intense
purposes. Because we have, like, if I'm
eight topics that are material for them.
Yeah, which means that they really have to pay attention
from a risk management fund, And from an impact point of view.
And so now we have to set goals that are kind of smart, you
know, specific measurable attainable relevant and
time-bound. So I had to go through these
targets together in the client despite intense.
And I also was invited by a multi-stakeholder initiative
partnership on AI to make suggestions on how to
disseminate their new code of conduct for the development
deployment and use. Use of synthetic media.
Well, which is really really timely now that, you know, it's
mostly video and audio based. I keep fakes and you don't fake
pictures, Etc. So it's not that much about JH e
PT which everyone including myself as using.
Yeah. But it's very timely really.
Just now this week I read that seen it.
This platform is techniques platform as a revealed that they
had been creating a lot of content.
With a, i Ai and indigo. This setup was always human
editor in the loop. It's turned out to be very
inaccurate information that they gave many cases.
The articles that have been created by.
Their AI application were not correct and even more.
So they now found out that a lot of it was see my pressurized.
So it was, they were pleasure Rising without knowing it or a I
just took its thoughts or its words rather From wherever it
had been trained. And so now they, I think they
had to retract a lot of our people.
So that's also synthetic media. If you think as a new supply for
you, can, you know, use AI to generate your content, even if
you're open about it and you make remarks saying like this
has been, you know, created with the help of AI.
But this person. And then you have a real person
is responsible for the accuracy of the content.
Yeah, it turned out that humans like journalists.
Are not made for this type of role because they will never pay
as much attention to the AI generated content.
As if they wrote it themselves. Exactly.
It's a different is that like if you plagiarize in that way, are
you then responsible as the person that created it or
generated it these questions according to my knowledge but
I'm not a lawyer there. See ya undecided, but there's a
huge discussion starting about intellectual property rights,
and teacher is mmm, because someone needs to be responsible.
Exactly. Yeah.
And you can't really say, well, the, the a, I did it, so, it's
not my responsibility, but also, you won't know where it got the
information from, so, you're acting not knowingly.
Yeah. Well, that's what that's part of
I think, what the EU way I act once attacked, like, who should
be responsible? Is it the Mayor of the AI
application, like the vendor or is it the user and so do you as
a user you need to have full transparency over the value
chain of the AI. Where does it come from?
Just like you have with, you know, bananas all week of
Columbia have been trained on that Plantation in Colombia.
So will you have to know as a user of AI applications of this?
AI application has been trained on a data set from, you know,
visit this year. For these years covering these
years from these platforms or is it okay?
Or is the vendor liable for mistakes or older vectorizing?
That could be traded by AI? But as I said, I'm not I'm not
fully up-to-date believe questions and it's not
suffering, my core competence but regardless of how the law
will regulate these questions for an ethical point of view.
It's anyway, it's relevant. It's yeah, absolutely.
I can imagine there's it's gonna be so much Much gray area like
even regardless yes, the law says right.
Because the laws absolutely black and white in some aspect
about yes, on an ethical sense. I guess it's a lot of gray area.
How would I describe kind of your raw because is it an Ethics
consultant? Is that doing it justice?
Or how would you describe? Like what you do on a
day-to-day? Well, I think on that basis, I
would even go as far and say, I'm an Ethics strategy
consultant. Yeah, because strategy is
important. If you say you're an Ethics
consultant, people think you will.
Will only help them with ethics, which is, of course, a good
thing. But I mean, let's be realistic.
I can only make money and it was a founded meaningful if I link
ethics to strategic questions. Yeah.
And some people feel like there is a contradiction between
ethics and strategy that ethics can never be strategically
oriented, and it's a bad thing to kind of You know, abuse
ethics for strategy? Yeah, but you know, I'm not in
Academia anymore, and I don't have to stick to a rigorous
Doctrine or like a rigorous mindset.
I had this flexibility to kind of mix different worlds and so
ethics like from free in an academic sense and the reality
of businesses I can combine the two and see what's best for my
client. So yeah.
Ethics strategy Consultants. Right, interesting?
Huh? How Do you combine because
ethics is for me, it's hard to Define and it's not really
tangible. How do you define that will
combine that with strategy? Like, they have an example of
that. Well, it's really, what I said
is like, if you business is about value creation, mostly, I
mean, first of all, or like, in the economic sense, so you
create value by giving advice to clients other people or other
businesses, create value by, but you know, producing food,
whatever. This product or service.
So now how can you make sure that this economic value
creation is aligned with ethical values?
And which ethical values is it aligned with?
Yeah. So, what are the predominant
ethical values that guide your business decisions because even
if you think you don't have any, we're just doing, you know, our
job, you're just earning money implicitly, you always make
ethical judgments. So I help clients become aware
of Of the Hidden ethics or implicit ethical assumptions
that are underlying their business models, and I help them
kind of flag them out and make sure that they're transparent
about their recorded normative assumptions.
Like about how things should be. And this is kind of what I
haven't because it's also nowadays.
It's an expectation. Also from stakeholders that your
business, you know, is clear or takes a stance of Physicians
themselves on It's that go Way Beyond merely economic or
business questions. Yeah.
But are they? So I hear you're saying, I still
have a hard time kind of finding an example.
Like my, the company I'm working with has values, will they call
them values? And I wonder how close they are
to ethics, right? Because they're one of them is
people. First second one is knowledge
sharing with quality without compromise.
And we have customer intimacy. Those are the main four pillars.
How are those, like strongly connected to Ethics in that way?
So, so first is not a cherry cost.
To see and people. First people first.
Yeah, I called it without sucking Noise.
Okay, so what would I expect in terms of, let's say an ethic
strategy from such company. If it said people first customer
intimacy, if you dance, only fully automate customer service.
If you only have call centers or like checkboxes cetera and human
in the loop cannot be reached anymore.
That would be, in my opinion, like a violation of your
self-proclaimed values. Yeah.
So it's real commitment to human interaction and, and it means
that, even though you're as far as I know, an IT consulting
company, you're like a totally different set of values will be
automation at scale maximum efficiency.
And I don't know, you know, whatever other way you could
think of. Yeah.
So I would expect it totally different.
Kind of strategy evolving from such values then from the
various you just played interesting.
And yeah, recently, I was talking to real estate agents
about sustainability, strategy, overarching, so say his
strategy. And then I read about, you know,
their value sets. And so, one of the companies
also had something like something like solid and I don't
know, sorry, Derek, Etc. Yeah.
And then I said, well, okay. If this is, if these are your
values as a company and this is how you treat your employees as,
you know, with solidarity Etc. I also expect you to kind of
build houses, or engage in building projects that mirror is
values. Yeah.
So you have to kind of translate your values and you have in your
company that you use for your engagement with your employees,
all of your other stakeholders, you can't if it totally
different set of values that guide you.
Behavior within your company and outside your company.
Yeah, I get that. Like I can I can have good
examples of where like those values would translate on a more
day-to-day business and in every aspect of the sense, right?
In the employees sense or more on a customer on consultancy,
bases are those then, are those the ethics of a company then or
do they translate into something else that are than the ethics?
Like, I still have a hard line dividing the values and ethics
in that way. Well I mean the venues are just
like the words that have been chosen by the company.
Yeah, kind of positioned themselves.
It's a lot about branding about, you know, being an attractive
employer. You know whatever salts are
Beyond. Just it's up, always explicitly
driven by ethical considerations but ethics of a company always
kind of can be assembled first of all by your core business.
So how do you do your core business?
I would say. Clothing brands like Patagonia
has a totally different ethical approach towards textile
production than for example, zinc Primark.
And I don't want to shame anyone.
Sure. But of course if you're talking
about Foss fashion or you're talking about eco-conscious
outdoor fashion, that's totally different.
Ethical approach to how you hand resources, how you give your
value chain. Your supply chain is Sarah.
So the core business is one thing where you can kind of
derive. It's working at endocyte you
know ethical assumptions that guide your business choices you
make there but then also the whole like corporate culture
that you have how you as I say like how you engage with your
employees, what kind of remuneration system?
Do you have not just for the board?
And for the management? But also, for your employees,
you have employee shares, Etc. All these are like ethical
decisions that you take like, yeah.
What is it worth for us as a company to have these?
How do we show appreciation as all these little things
together, they kind of, create the ethics of company, but then,
again, it's never a uniform ethical position in public
companies made is made of people.
And it's often heavily influenced like the, at least
the tone, from the top, like the current CEO, or the current
board will always have an impact on ethics.
The messages, they spread will always say A death except so
there can also be changes in values or like changes in how
you do business, ethically, more or less ethically, as soon as as
there is a change on the top of the company, but so overall.
It's yeah. Your core business, the choices
you make their. What do you emphasize?
How do you source, and how you sell?
And then you're like corporate culture, which is to a certain
degree independent from your core business?
Interesting. I wonder how much awareness kind
of helps in that. This was, as you mentioned, you
didn't like you pointed them out, but I didn't know those
were ethical questions, right by.
As you go about them, I can see how there's ethics in place
there, but the people making those decisions, I'm not aware.
If they are aware that, those are ethical questions, right?
That they have to ask themselves.
I think a lot of people do that unknowingly and to make those
decisions based on their intuition.
And obviously, those are kind of founded within their roots in in
a way of working, or where they come from, or what they've
experienced in that way. But they are still Classical
decisions. Yes, it's often like this right
at either, it's like intuition. But I mean, in a business
context, you don't talk about intuition.
You said, we don't say, oh it's not, it's not a good feeling.
It's not like really you often say things like, we are forced
by the market competition forces us.
So you pretend that you're not responsible and you don't have
any wiggle room there. And so these are often excuses,
not in a bad way but or like a lack of awareness and all the
dislike There is no alternative mindset, often times you do have
room for manoeuvre and you do, you can change things.
But of course, there are certain icard restrictions like, budgets
Etc. But even within that you how you
allocate your resources. You know, says something about
your priorities and what you value.
Most. Yeah, and this is really, this
is something I really like, that's all the one out.
For example, talk about sustainability with my clients.
I don't talk about tons of CO2. To right from the beginning.
First I asked them, what does sustainability mean for you?
And then some people say, oh, sustainability is resource
efficiency or it is circular economy, and they come with
technical concept. And others say, oh no,
sustainability is solidarity with future Generations, Etc.
So you really, you see how the same concept can be interpreted
as an entire technical concept, but some people or as I get
heavily ethics In concept. But the people I think that's
really challenging like even the notion of what is fair, right?
Even let's say you're in an organization and you all have
the same manager. They're gonna treat you
differently based on other people and those other people
might think that's fair or unfair at the end of the day, it
doesn't really matter because I don't think there's a hard line
and it's black and white. Like, it feels very much gray.
What would be fair in that case? Even like the sustainability
aspect, like you mentioned. Yeah.
I think, you know, when we're dead.
These people people can try to be fair, you have procedures,
you have standards. And of course, there's always a
human element, which is Moody and unpredictable, and I might
have a secret hidden preference for, you know, certain people
over others. So, but they're, of course, it's
important to have standards in place and resources for like
taking recourse, like they say remedy, yes, cedra.
If your rights get violated. That's also what makes it so
difficult when you're trying to delegate curses are we
delegating lot of decision-making processes to
Tech. Yeah.
Then there is no room for discussion about whether
decision has been Fair decision is made by computer program and
you just, you know, take it or leave it.
That's it. Don't know how it hasn't taken.
You can't argue with me, I education.
And that's people think it's more fair because computer is
neutral. But as you all know, you know
someone Trains an algorithm someone defines what parameters,
you know go into the algorithm what training set, we use, Etc.
So this is like attention, nothing.
Can relieve us from ethical responsibility.
Yeah, Vivian, it's always us like humans responsible for
these matters. Yeah, I think also like looking
at a brand perspective, I watch a lot of Shark Tank and what I
see more so is that people invest more, so in Brands,
rather than the products they sell, sometimes like it.
A good product, but a lot of companies can have a good
product and then what they do as a company besides just building
that product, all of a sudden matters more, right?
If we have a company that really advocates for sustainability in
the sell clothes and they can say 0 for x amount of sales.
We plant the tree somewhere, right?
To give back all of a sudden people look at that Brandon are
like okay I can see myself behind that and that's them kind
of a strategy aspect of that. Yeah there's a lot of PR is
yeah, and to a certain degree I found it.
Okay, I don't find it bad to try to make money with or from
ethical actions. I don't say it's a per say
something that I totally true to size.
Yeah. But at the same time of course,
as you say, like planting trees and just yeah, we're close to
the whole green watching this thing watching discussion there,
if you, you know, you can just liberate yourself from your
responsibility by planting trees or you have no control over.
Fast they grow where they grow and, and it doesn't really make
up for all the emissions you're like maybe unnecessarily
creating in your production process.
So that's a bit of a delicate example.
The plaintiff resistant overuse, but still, as you say it is.
There's a lot of like brand value.
That's kind of decoupled from products and I appreciate it, a
friend, okay? If authentic sustainability
increases the value of a brand that It's kind of desirable.
Yeah. I like I like that.
You add it having to be authentic, right?
Because if it's like force, then if it's used in, kind of a
finally weight gain attention in that way because it is PRI it
should be positive for your PR and authentic CR.
Otherwise, I also don't think it's sustainable at some point
something's going to shine through, and that will catapult
back into the negativity. Then, But the hard part is, I
think, for me, what I would see as organization, if you don't
really are aware of like the ethical decisions that you make
or even those guidelines that you have in place or more so
boundaries, what is like being aware of those ethical
decisions. Like what would it add to an
organization? All of a sudden being more?
So we're of the ethics that are in an organization rather than
the opposite of them acting unknowingly.
Well, it's certainly reduces the risk of violating anyone's
rights. For its election risk management
perspective is very like technically speaking.
It's a strategic speaking, but it just helps you to have a also
common bases in your company. People are aware of the ethical
assumptions, I say like or the ethical considerations that
drive your decisions. Yeah, it's much easier for
people to either Bond or say. I disagree.
So it's I think it really helps you create a stronger corporate
culture like that. Yeah.
Because from a, from a value point of view, even my my
organization is structured in different units and every unit
has kind of their own operational sense profit loss.
If I don't even know how to say that from a business context,
now, that's shining through. But in any case they're
responsible for their own operations in a sense and then
also we have this Russians like what really defines us, like,
why do we exist in the first place?
And what brings us together, right?
And I think those questions is really going to create kind of a
camaraderie and it's going to bond us over a certain aspect
that like we came together to solve a problem, right?
And talking about what that is, and what decisions get made and
how we do those things, those approaches, I think those are
ethical questions were asking ourselves, but we go about it in
a different way, right? Because we see a problem that as
a consultancy company or more so spread out.
Over different clients but still we come together as a company.
We say, we are this company and it needs to come like around a
certain aspect and asking ourselves what those aspects are
in defining them. I think really helps me kind of
forming that bonding. Exactly.
I mean, I can't believe it that we be talking for like, 20
minutes and I mentioned the word purpose yet, it's all about
purpose. So every company nowadays, of
course, has to Define their purpose.
You know what the chicken mates or legitimizes hour, Is what
problem are you trying to solve what value to do?
We add to the world. Yeah, that's not just because of
sustainability because all the, you know, the younger generation
which your, I guess part of it. But especially Chauncey, they
have totally different expectations from their
employers. They don't just go to a company
that says, oh, we're producing, you know, tools for the sake of
producing tools. And we're trying to maximize our
sales. We don't care who buys our tools
and what they're doing with it and how our pools are created or
where we Source our metals from, you can't be indifferent to
these questions anymore. So you need to have a purpose
that kind of, you know, is considered legitimate and
attractive for your employees but also for other stakeholders
and otherwise you're not going to survive.
Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned that like more.
So that is a stronger feeling from a younger generation and I
can see that Trend more and more But I don't know where that
comes from like is a younger generation more aware of what
happens around the world like because of social media of stuff
like that, what do you think that is more?
So like a parent within that younger generation.
I guess, I've looked so good. I mean, I assume if I were 20
today, I would probably be glued to the road now and not do not
cast. Sorry, that's the.
I know it's probably part of Extinction Rebellion or less
generation or whatever they call themselves.
I mean, out of be very Worried because, when I was 20, it was
the 90s. Yeah, and it was offered the end
of Cold War, Cold War, and before 9/11, and this decade
that my 20s like a large part of my twenties, it even looked like
at least in Switzerland and to a certain degree as if like to
really difficult questions had been resolved wasn't capitalism
that I'd want over communism and you know we didn't have these
two blocks anymore and nuclear war was not a permanent threat
anymore. So it looks like okay, we're
doing it. Have some Just with environment.
Yeah, but that was mostly nucleus, right?
Or maybe acid rain Etc. But it was not this like
systemic Questions that they have that we have nowadays, they
were not present. So if I think if you're 20 now
it's by no means clear and were that capitalism the way we used
to do it? Like short-term short-sighted
capitalism is is doing us is the best option we have.
Yeah, you realize that this short sightedness has screwed up
a lot of things that we have wasted resources that even
though countries get richer and richer to a certain extent,
people don't get happier. There's a limit to the
correlation between happiness and wealth.
Yeah, and all these questions. I think it makes people much
more sensitive. So, I totally understand that
they don't just want to think about questions of meaning and
fairness in their private time, like when they leave the factory
at four pm of it, have like the intention and also the treasurer
to kind of Sense of their lives in the vehicle passing sense.
All the woodwork. Yeah.
And I think I like that kind of explanation or that train of
thought, that the questions we have now about the world or our
impact on the world, or company's impact on the world.
They're more so apparent now and I don't know why that is.
I don't know if they've always been there or just through the
information sources we have, they're more like a parent in a
way. I think that has a factor but
the fact that people are really just being introspective looking
at their lives and kind of the impact on the Greater good.
I think it's very healthy and more people do that.
The bigger, the change is going to be, because each individual
Change is Gonna add up and you have to have faith to a certain
degree that it does add up, and that people will act
accordingly. But that requires a lot of faith
in that way. Yeah, you're right.
She got more introspective and also social media, of course,
plays at Giant robe. Yeah.
Because when I talk about the 90s, maybe I only perceived it
as on political and peaceful, who's didn't have all
Information in real time all the time.
No all my smartphone popping up things like attacks against
foreigners in Germany because I know for example, in Germany
like neighboring country to Switzerland, the 90s were
totally different than it. Some things they had like you
know, post like they're the city reunions Etc and they had a lot
of issues there with you know racism Etc and and people who
live there and totally different perception.
But I was like, let's say 2000 or like that.
Thousand, which is the way I didn't know.
I mean, I read about the newspaper.
Yeah, once a day, but there was no real time life reporting that
could, you know, make me very. So, I think the constant flow of
information now makes people much more aware.
Yeah, and as I say it, respect it but I think there's also a
danger, you know, it's hard to keep Focus.
If you're overwhelmed by a steady stream of news and as we
know where you move around the platforms, Shoes and the bubble,
you're in kind of shapes what you get to see and it's not
necessarily always a balanced and healthy environment for
everyone. Yeah, I agree.
I usually describe myself sometimes, especially with Dutch
media, is living under a rock. Like I have no clue what happens
like on a TV since I don't have a TV anymore and I don't know
why that is, but I feel like not knowing about like smaller
issues or like more on a day-to-day thing.
Kind of thing makes me more happy because it filters out a
lot of the The noise. And I don't know if that was a
conscious decision, that's just how it grew to be, I guess.
But I do realize that if people are really good glue to all the
negativity because any negativity cells especially on
news and stuff like that, then they kind of spiral, right?
Because then they think everything is negativity and
it's everywhere and it's just Doom and Gloom out there and I
do see that it can be toxic in that way as well.
There needs to be a balance and I think a healthy balance.
Yeah same but looking back more so to a business context because
we What the ethics are and even the purpose in there.
What I wonder is because I've seen this online, and also
reading it, the topic of being ethically sound.
And I don't know if there's a fine line, like, someone can
say, okay? This is ethically sound in.
This is not but somehow a lot of Articles, still describe some
things as being ethically sound like if you in your consultancy
assignments or working together with companies, do you define
what is ethically sound or do you allow people to Define that
themselves? Or what's going on?
Your take on that. Well, I definitely don't
so ethically sound. In a descriptive sense can be,
if your highest, if your purpose of the company is like
maximizing scale efficiency and speed, I would say, well it's
not ethically sound but at least it's not really surprising.
If you also apply that principle to the way you did with purpose
in Supply chains, it's not ethical sound.
So it's something I like but, you know, I could say it's it's
it's what you expect from company with these values.
Yeah. But It's not, it's definitely
more surprising or a bigger problem, if you know, sell
yourself as a high you know where company dedicated to
fairness and to whatever health and the environment Etc.
And then you kind of don't live according to these values,
neither in your day-to-day business within your own
operations. Yeah, nor in your relation with
your stakeholders. So, that's it.
On corporate level and like four people for like individual
people. Ethically sound.
What is ethically sound? It's like, of course, I could
come up with different ethical theories, but I don't think they
help in a corporate context. It's certainly what is in line
with the purpose of the company and where you kind of At the
same time, stay true to yourself and if you are in a company
where the very purpose forces you to violate your own values
on and on on and again, again, again, you're probably not in
the right company or that's like it's not medically sound
environment. Yeah, I like I like that
reasoning because Integrity, right holding true to your
values, either. If that's a company or if that's
a person, I think that makes a lot of sense and all of a sudden
if you kind of cross that line even for yourself, And reflect
back on that. You like all that wasn't really
like the right way where I should have handled that
differently or I didn't expect that from myself, right.
We already have the reasoning looking back and being like all
those judgment calls. Those are not really who I am or
who I want to be, right? Because you can still strive to
be something you think is better.
And at the end of the day, I think that correct for instance,
the ethically sound part and it's not really black and white
rights very much. Now your bowl and also company.
The way it is at incentives, they have a direct impact of
weather. You can act in ethically sound
way or not. So for example, if you're being
incentivized to kind of maximize sales, no matter what.
Yeah, it will of course try to, you know, that's what we had in
financial crisis, in the Novelties of zeros, like 2008
etcetera, you're going to try to sell any Financial product to
just anyone regardless of whether you know it is the right
thing in light of their risk appetite.
And their personal situation. So this has a direct impact on
your room or in your freedom for like the ethically sound if
you're like Unruh pressure or if you're like working in a company
where you're like surveilled that where there's everything
surveillance, you will probably not act ethically sound because
you don't have room to deliberate about your actions,
your just driven by algorithms, such your performance and
productivity all the time and there is no Base for genuine.
Ethical behavior in such a highly automated context.
Yeah, it's very interesting. I mean one of the things you
mentioned made me like triggered me into thinking about more.
So the the time that we're facing now or more so trending
towards now because if I open my LinkedIn and if I open someone
else's LinkedIn as well you see a lot of big companies.
Big Ten companies laying off like thousands and ten.
Thousands of people all of a sudden overnight people get an
email and don't even get to say goodbye to some ass.
Aspect and I'm just like, what is happening over here.
Like those are companies that I looked up to and all of a sudden
they flip the switch on you and they do something like that,
which I don't know where that comes from or how that kind of
like if that is in line with what you said, that people don't
feel forced like this is the only option or more.
So making decisions that they really like can't hold a candle
to, I guess. You mean those who fired people?
Yeah, they didn't have any other option.
I can't really judge it as hard trance.
Yeah, but everything that happens with big tick.
I mean, you know, I'm Switzerland, you're in Holland.
Yeah, I don't think any of these procedures would be legal the
way that people are fired. I read about it on Twitter.
I'll just received an email or just couldn't enter my office
anymore. Yeah, I don't think that's legal
in Continental Europe. I think it most is says
something about the Lake of the employee.
The Anglo-Saxon world or in the u.s., yeah, yeah, I think so.
Yeah. But it's amazing because
especially, B Tech has been very good at also, creating a lot of
immaterial value or like, you know, driving up the valuations
by selling their brand and their, you know, I think who,
for example, had a very strong reputation for strong corporate
culture. We have a lot of extra benefits,
like free lunch for people and a pecan pie.
Table and whatever it takes now, hard times out of here, I'd
rather have less people table, less a free lunch, and less of a
family feeling. May be enforced upon me at work.
Yeah. But the more reliable and and
steady employer than just this, like hire and fire overnight at
discrepancy that I perceive. Yeah.
And the fact that like short countries can can have rules and
regulations against that, but the fact that Use that to your
advantage in then like for your business culture in your
context. That that's a harsh one.
Like that's a hard one exactly. Somebody the law is your
benchmark. Yeah.
When before you trade yourself for going way above the law, we
thought you provide to your employees.
How you? You know, you treat them like
family members and you know, you spoil them and everyone was
jealous of people working at cool with all these extra
benefits. And when it comes to firing, I
mean, I can't really talk detail by Google but just What I
perceive now or when it comes to firing procedures.
Big Tech just, you know, sticks to the bare minimum Lon, it'll
make any effort. From what I see, go young for
long. Yeah, and like, from a, I mean,
from an outside point of view looking inside, like it looks
really bad because first it was one company.
Then it's the other one there like dominoes and they all do
it. Kind of you know worse way feels
like one tries to up the other one in making it like an even
worse example to talk about which I don't know why, right?
If you see one companies, Doing a whore in a horrible sense and
you see a lot of people talking about it online.
Like, obviously take a bit of nuance and take a bit of empathy
and do it differently, right? You can still let go people
because it's better for your business because of the context,
but do it in a way that it doesn't either impact.
So many people are or the impact is, so grave.
In that way, it's actually pretty bad for ethics.
I must say now that you mention it, because if you, you know,
What about corporate culture and how Corporate culture really
reflects on the ethics of company and you could say
whatever you want about big tank, but a lot of them seem to
have an attractive culture for employees.
Certain regards course, I've always been accused of, you
know, discrimination and sexism and racism.
You know that by no means innocent but in many ways they
seem to be really good employers and creating a good environment
for people. And then if all this is It's
just like thrown overboard immediately and and the way they
fire people does not reflect in any way, the values that they
used to have before. As I said before, kind of shows
how fragile ethics can be. When, when hard times come with
economic Hard Times come, it's like, are you willing to, can
you afford ethics in hard times? Yeah, apparently, you can't or
the way they did it. They couldn't they could, it's
not It's not sustainable. The ethical model is not
sustainable. If it's only like a or the
sunshine, whether ethics like that only matters in Good Times.
Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean that's what all company values,
right? You're going to have benefits in
your knob secondary benefits and even benefits, that are not
really tangible. Right?
In the way, people interact with each other or like the simplest
thing as a free lunch or something like that.
But if shit hits the fan, if it's really bad times, then the
things that still stand at the end of the day.
I think those are you true company values, right?
Because from an organization point of view that can be like,
okay, this is going to cost more.
But this is the risk we're willing to take because this is
who we are and that is very powerful you stand by that.
Obviously if you still make it at the end of the day as well,
those are the new values and those are your ethics as well.
Those are the Not Fragile, while the ones that fall and break
those, I think might have been more of a, how do you say that?
Like a mirage. I guess it's a hard one.
It's like, you know, One of the favorite terms across the last
few years, like, ethics or sustainability is in our DNA.
Know, if it's really in our DNA, you don't lose your DNA, you
know, when economics change it so forth.
Have you been you been mutated crisper modified?
Yeah I don't mind you being ethical and making money from
Being ethical as long as you keep being ethical, once you
don't make money from being ethical anymore.
So that's kind of nice to see it's, you know, the the litmus
test. It's a wonder he chipped his fan
as you said, that's what's happening now.
Yeah. And I don't know how we're gonna
get out of this, it's just now that everything is online.
And everyone seeing that like the reputational damage is just
I don't think they can really measure it, right?
Because even people that are in the company are being scared for
their job, Looking outside in there like okay it's not as good
as I thought it would be so they're going to have secondary
thoughts even applying in that aspect like it's the damage is
huge. So was it then really worth
that? I don't know and I don't think
I'm ever gonna know but I would like to know tell me I'm really
I'm also a bit confused at the moment because on one hand we
have a huge shortage in qualified labor right?
You know I teach a shortage but apparently it's a big Tech.
We have Google here, we have, I think your face metal here in
certain cetera. They have hired a lot of
qualified labor and for wages that know SME in Switzerland
could pay. Yeah, and so, so now, I mean, I
don't know what's going to happen, so on the one hand,
yeah, we're having a shortage of labor.
On the other hand, you say the reputation is being damaged.
I don't know how, you know Supply.
Man how that's going to work out.
Yeah, me neither but one of the one of the final thoughts I had,
was you laid out that in Europe like this?
Most likely cannot happen, right?
Because of the rules and regulations that are in place of
the companies, or at least, it would happen with a bit more
nuanced, right. With a do notice day, and a few
months in between and a severance package, right?
Because those are the kind of the rules and regulations we
have within these countries, but not every country in that way.
Is the same. Right?
And some countries, I think based on just what They lay out
as law. Protect their, their people a
bit more than from a business context, right?
If you have a business sense as an entity in the people that are
than employed at that business, in this case, the employees have
more benefits when it comes to like ethically, being let go in
that way. But not every not, every country
has that. Do you think we're trending more
towards countries, or even companies being more bounded by
countries and guidelines in that way?
Like is it more strict than getting more strict than in a
good way? For the people that are employed
there, where do you think is trending?
Right expert in employee protection, but I think the EU
has their standards and especially all the different
countries into you have different standards.
You know, France, for example, has probably much higher
standards then I don't know saying, Colin's.
Okay, I assume you know, just like just assuming but I don't
know about trans. I think they're just new
challenges that arise where you have gaps that have not been
regulated like, with the whole like economy.
How do you do these workers that are not like permanently
employed, and you knew you, work models, Etc.
So, that's where there will be an impact.
Depending on how you regulate that, it will be better or worse
for for people that I don't know what the general trend is a.
You're off to read that. Things are getting more
precarious. I don't think that employee
protection is on the rise. No, General, no.
I think it's, I think it's been set, and sometimes it's being
reworked and I think it's sometimes needs reworking.
I mean, due to covid, a lot of people are working remote more
so and more. So so Spain offers now like a
digital moment Visa, which is interesting.
So something radical usually happens before you see a shift
or a trend in a different way, but I think otherwise it's just
laid out and that's it. And you have those boundaries in
the company's play, those boundaries to their best even
when there's a crisis which I don't really know what to think
of that but that's what I haven't seen and when it comes
to Tech and I also don't know where it's trending, but the
challenges that our eyes like more, the more we do with AI, we
already do a lot and I'm not a lot you can See chatty, PT was,
I think one of the first ones where a general population
actually had access to something.
And I think the impact was also enormous there, where people
could see like this is, this is insane, and some people are
afraid of their jobs. Also, because of that, and then
new challenges arise. When it comes to plagiarism.
Like we touched upon earlier that haven't been defined,
right? And we're going to make a
decision at some point where a group is going to make a
decision. And if that's right or wrong,
we're not going to be either there to decide or we can
disagree or agree. But decisions are going to be
made and I don't know how it's going to Trend in that way.
Yeah, I think the impact of Charity is only just unfolding
now, because it has been on the like, on the market that are
accessible for everyone, just for the past two months, and it
was Christmas in between. But now I see everyone is using
it. So I think the, the big
decisions on whether that GPT make certain people obsolete or
certain jobs obsolete. This is just coming.
Up in the future. But now, of course, when you
read stories, like I said, from seen it, where the creation of
content with AI has led to inaccurate text, maybe that's
also a warning signal, that will be taken seriously cetera.
But I know that in other, in other talks, I think, like,
mediocre copywriters, for example, don't you think you
need them anymore GPT for the mediocre work and then you have
some professionals experts that can And mediocre content into
really good content. That's where you need to use in
many ways I think. Yeah.
Catchy Petit or like AI that democratize Ki as they often
poor. Yeah.
Accessible for everyone really shake up.
The work environments. Yeah.
And I like I hope I hope a role a lot of roles evolve like you
mentioned, right that they already have a head start and
then their job is to take it from 70% and turn it into a 99%.
Let's say because 100 is always hard.
I hope a lot of roles evolve and don't just become obsolete,
because I think that's the harshest one where someone all
of a sudden brings up something and your job is obsolete.
You have to do something completely else.
I think that's so weird. Obsolescence is really hard
work. Meaningful.
As I said, she had example if someone who has been trained as
a journalist or sees himself or herself as a writer suddenly is
like relegated to the union the loop.
That's just reading the text that has been created by a I
know the meaning. Yeah job just kind of vanishes
and so how can we create meaningful jobs for people or
like make them involved evolved into many Physicians?
I go you mean I think that's going to be incredibly
challenging because The task because that's 10 more of a task
than a job. I guess that is new and sure
someone needs to do that task. But if that fulfills them, in a
way that it did before. Yeah.
If they're really, if they identify as a writer, that's
going to be a hard one, a real hard one.
I've I've loved our conversation so far having to do with ethics
purpose and values. I think a lot of food for
thought and I'm going to really enjoy re listening to this
episode. Is there anything you still want
to share with our audience before we leave off?
No, just thanks a lot for having me and for Challenging me on
entirely different set of questions that I usually get.
That's also uniqueness, I really appreciate that.
I think I really am. I'm starting my mind started
pulling. So what's a good sign and the
easy to achieve? So thanks a lot.
No problem. No problem.
When you were saying that I was like I hope I hope in a good way
but I'm glad I'm glad you did. Then we're going to round it off
here, Dorothea Bauer, everyone. I'm gonna put all her socials in
the description below. Check her out there.
You know, you came from our show and with that being said, thank
you for listening. We'll see you on the next one.