Hi everyone, My name is Patrick Akil, and if you're interested
in developing people next to technology, this episode is for
you. Joining me today is Esther LaRue
all the way from Joburg, South Africa.
She's a competence lead and software engineer at Hexaware
Technologies. And we covered finding your
strength as a software engineer as well as growing as fast as
possible within your career for you as a person and with regards
to your skills as software engineer.
So enjoy on a more day-to-day basis.
How many people are you helping with regards to mentorship or
from a, let's say, management perspective?
So in Amsterdam I have a team of about seven people.
Yeah, that's non project related.
And then project related, it depends it on the requirements
at that stage, but anywhere from 2:00 to 7:00.
And so on. And how, let's say I were to be
new in your team, how do we start off kind of this talk of
personal development or any type of conversation?
How do you usually start off with someone that's new in your
team I'd. Like to ask you what's your
background and what do you like most about your job?
What's your favorite part to try and see if the part that gives
them job satisfaction if we can have more of that for the
specific person. Sorry, no worries for this
specific person. So now what do you like most?
And then where do you see yourself hypothetically in five
years or 10 years time, but also where do you see yourself in a
year or so? Yeah, With personal development,
I think it's always for me been challenging to see, OK, where do
I see myself in a longer time horizon?
One year I can do, one year is like close to Max strategy
basically. Yeah.
So where do you see yourself in one year?
I don't. I still don't know.
I've always said that since the podcasting, I've had more and
more conversations with people that do developer advocacy,
which is kind of software engineering and how I would
translate it. Also part of the marketing side
of it, being more present online, working on your personal
branding as well as representing what a company does and
communicating that to the best you can.
I really like that as a role in its essence and I haven't done
that yet, but I've always admired that.
Then engineering management is something I already have kind of
a a responsibility for currently and that could grow.
I could see myself growing into a role that does more of that.
And then lately, but I've kind of scratched that itch.
It was always kind of product management as well.
And I've been doing that since January, which has been a lot of
fun. But I really miss one of the
hands on like software engineering things.
So I'd say one of those 3, Yeah, Yeah.
What about you? My answer always changes.
I constantly constantly re evaluate and adjust.
But currently in one year hopefully on another project.
Not because I dislike my project but just because I like change.
So new project, new team, same team perhaps but new challenges.
So I feel like I really like change and and challenges, but
it's always always good to try something new.
Excuse me? Yeah, no worries.
And I feel in the, the project that I'm currently on, the
challenges have kind of worked out themselves by now.
So, so that's short term where I see myself.
But I'm, I'm very happy at the company.
We have a very, we have an awesome culture and we are very
people focused. So especially when we are
hiring, first making sure that the person would be a cultural
fit for the company and then after that looking at the
technical skills. So it's the people, people are
great. So I would like to stay with
those people for now at least. Yeah.
I mean, when it comes to developing people and having
those, let's say, one-on-one conversations, for me, I always
see two types of people, people that know where they want to go,
and then it's a bit more easy to break it down and see how you
can get there. But for people that don't know
usually, how do you help them figure out where they want to go
or help them figure out where they, yeah, I guess in essence
where they want to go? So if they are not yet sure
where they want to go, so we have the check insurance
biweekly. So then keep the conversation
going every time checking in. What is it that you what?
What do you like most? Where do you want to grow and
where do you want to? What do you want to learn more
about? So it's not something that you
figure out in one session. It's an ongoing process and the
answers also change. So this for now, it might be
that I'm interested in learning a bit more about this text tag
or learning how to work with these type of people.
But then after a while, if you are constantly faced with the
question about what do you want to do next and you think about
it more often, then the answer becomes a bit more clear.
The more you think about it, the more you you put energy and
effort into to into it. So re evaluating, having this
discussion not the same, not just like where do you want to
be in here every time, but just what do you want to do?
What do you like? Tell me your favorite part of
the last two weeks. What did you struggle with?
What challenges did you face? How did you overcome them and
what did you learn and how? What was the your favorite part
of this process of what you learnt?
And then take it take it session by session.
That's great. Once people find, let's say, a
step on the horizon, doesn't matter if it's a year or let's
say five years, how do you help them then break it down or make
sure they are on the path to achieve whatever they aspire to
achieve. So if it's in the same track,
then it's mostly get more experience or do some
certifications or courses. But sometimes people don't want
to stay on the same track. They maybe want to try a new
role. So then you need to kind of try
and identify the overlap between the existing role and the neuron
to see what they need to focus on to improve.
But also see if there's an opportunity where they can work
with someone in the role they are aiming for, to work with
them. See how they are doing it.
And then doing that for a little while, asking them if they can
pick up a task here or there there to to try it out to see if
it is what they are interested in.
And then if it's going well to to do more and more of that.
Do you have an example of that of a person that switched from
I'm assuming software engineering to something else
because I wonder how adjacent that is.
So well, it will still kind of be in the digital realm, digital
strategy realm. So let's say going from front
end engineering to product design, working with the
designers or even just going like from front end to back end
or to full sack. So working with the security
engineer on your project, if you want to, to transition to
security, asking them why they are doing the things that
they're doing. Asking if you can listen in on
the meetings they're having to see what they're actually
discuss, discussing day-to-day, what are their tasks, how they
are handling it and how they strategize and think it out and
why they are doing it. So even just listening in or
view viewing would help you see is this what you want to do,
learn from them and then say, OK, I see you have this task.
Can I do it with you? Or can we do like peer
programming or with the design? Also having the same
conversation with your designer, what is your thought process?
How did you get to this layout? So learning from their
experience and then but depending on the project or the
team or the set up, if it is allowed in that specific
project, if you can pick up a task you're or there.
So then it would be the less complex, less challenging tasks.
But just to get into it and to do that until you are confident
enough to take on more. When they are, let's say
confident enough to take on more, Would they then let's say
start out from scratch? Because that's usually what I
fear is if I, let's say people are a senior software engineer
or more on the front end and they want to go into product
design, what they have to start from scratch.
Well, they don't have the same experience.
So if you're a senior software engineer, you can't suddenly be
a senior designer because the experience there is a mismatch.
So you do have experience in the industry, but it's not, it's not
the required experience for that level.
So you know, you might have to drop A level or two, but that's
why you first tried out to see if it's really what you're into.
Are you willing to take this this drop and then evaluate it
from them? Yeah, yeah.
I wonder how much people have done this, let's say sunken cost
in. Well, I'm a senior front and
engineer now and if I were to have to, I'm kind of starting
over. I hope the passion would kind of
outweigh the sunken cost there. And if this is really something
they want to pursue, they actually do so because that
would, in the end, probably make them happier and what they're
doing on the day-to-day. I think more and more people
have the guts to do it nowadays. So this is now just from a
perspective of people changing from careers that they had to
software and willing to be a junior and build it from the
ground up even though they had five to 10 years experience in
the previous industry. I'm seeing that more and more
nowadays. So I think within the tick, I
think if you did that leap, you might reconsider if you want to
drop down again. But I think people have the guts
to do it if it's their passion, if that's really what what what
they want to do and pursue. I had AQ and a recently and a
lot of the questions were actually from that perspective.
So other people that are just starting out from a career
switch or just starting out from a traditional educational
background or even self-taught in any way, what would you
advise to people that are just starting out, let's say, in the
software landscape when it comes to growth and personal
development? That's a broad one, I know.
I'm just thinking about my answer because it might be
contradictory. I would say get a job where you
actually for the first year or year and a half, you don't have
a very good work life balance for the reason that you can get
like four years experience in one year and you can get to
work. Try to work at a in a full stack
role if possible so that you can learn.
This is not specifically for software engineering so that you
can learn front and back end security, dev OPS, QA.
So if if you are starting out, depending on where you are in
your personal journey as well, but if you have capacity to at
that stage take on a bit more than what you want than what is
feasible for the rest of your your life.
But to set that year aside and then try to get as much
experience as you can, because then you can also see where you
want to go from there. So it's I don't have to be 1
yet, but a couple of months. Try everything out, see what you
like, what you don't like, and then try to pursue the the
department that you that you feel most fulfilled in.
Yeah, interesting. So having a kind of wide
starting point to then zoom in on later and go deep.
Yeah, that's not how I I mean, I really started off on the back
end because I had an interest in front end, but back end was more
comfort I think as well as it just intrigued me more.
And then when I was comfortable, when I felt like I had the depth
and I didn't really want to go deeper.
And that's when I looked outward when it comes to let's say
software technology in the 1st place.
But even before then, I came from the operational side where
I chose to be really wide in whatever responsibilities I
could get more from a responsibility side and not
necessarily from a technology side.
But I do like that starting out wide, you can learn what you
like and even also important what you don't like, because
then stay away from those. Yeah, that's that's very
important. How did you find the transition
from operations to back end? So I had done, let's say more
data science oriented things on in university.
And from the operation side, I was really frustrated because I
would flag things that went wrong in production.
It would go to a different department and I would sometimes
even be able to browse the code and be like, OK, is this it?
This is the issue. But I would never know.
In the end, I would always have to chase and ask and I could
never fix it myself or at least I wasn't responsible.
So then I told my manager like I'm I'm missing something in
solving things because I only identify then it goes to someone
else and it's my responsibility to keep things up and running
and make sure things are smooth. But then in the end if I'm not
creating whatever we put to production, then for me it was
the point. It was kind of strange.
And then back then DevOps was coming up in more of a term and
awareness and I found myself in that terminology and I was like,
this is what I want to do. I want to do both, right, create
as well as make sure it runs smoothly.
So then from there, my management, my manager put in a
good word and I also chased other departments.
And in the end, I found myself in a position where they were
all external people. I was one of the only internal
people. I had a new manager and they
said, basically transfer as much knowledge to Patrick as you can
so he can do it basically because everyone here is quite
expensive. And in the end, from a
consultancy perspective, you also want internally to have a
smooth operation so you can leave better than you kind of
came in, in the 1st place when it came to then figuring out new
technologies. It was a real ramp up when it
comes to knowledge and growth because I didn't know a lot of
things. It was like, OK, have you worked
with GitHub? I was like, so they tried in
university, but I never got the point.
And then they explained it to me.
I said, God, this, this actually makes a lot more sense.
And yeah, with that, we started pair programming a lot.
I think I learned the fastest through there.
Someone would just walk me through what I needed to do.
And honestly, first few times I had no clue where I was or what
I was doing. And in the end we would do it.
And I'll be like, man, in my head it was a lot harder.
And I still don't know exactly what we did, but in the end we
did it. So those small victories that
took more and more kind of want and eagerness.
And eventually, yeah, I grew from there.
It was a lot of fun. I looked back at that and it's
very fond memories. Yeah.
What about you? Because I know you have this
kind of passion for developing people in the 1st place, but I
also know you came from a more hands on experience.
How was it transitioning to more of let's say team leader
leadership role for you? I really enjoyed it.
I think it's the my favorite part of my, my job at this
stage. Well, you start off small, start
off with one or two people and then see how it goes.
Take it from them. But also the best way to learn
is also from other people and how they do it.
So but it's, it's trial and error.
You try it out, you see how it goes, what works, what doesn't
work. But the main thing that I tried
doing was listening to to what my team members are saying and
what they that what they want. But I also found that it helped
kind of have a plan. So not just not just the check
insurance, but kind of at, OK, let's look at your strengths now
and do so still have the regular check insurance, but then do one
strength per session or then to look at, OK, we are now doing
performance evaluations. So right now feedback is very
important. How do you feel about giving and
receiving feedback? How do you identify feedback?
So also something that's relevant to the situation they
are in. So to try and identify is this
something that they are are confident in or not confident
in? Do they want to to practice that
or identify how to do it. So sometimes I would also ask
them, OK, now I'll go and if you are not comfortable with
feedback or identifying feedback, go now in the next two
weeks and try and identify the feedback that you would give
people. So it's it's practical and they
would come back and give examples and then we'll see, OK,
can you improve it? Do you need to improve it or is
that great? Or if if they were confident
with feedback in general, we would just, that wasn't
necessary. So trying to get ideas from what
they need to apply practically and if there is a gap, try, try
to do that. So also re evaluating and
adjusting what we are talking about throughout the year.
And so far so good. I'm I'm enjoying it at least,
Yeah. That's the best.
So it's it's trying out, seeing what works, seeing what's
relevant at that stage. Yeah, I really like that you
said. Also, getting comfortable asking
and receiving feedback is a thing.
And it's something I haven't even like thought of because I
thought for me it's so normalised, asking for feedback
and giving feedback that I wouldn't think of people not
being comfortable with that. So I really like that you
actually take the process and go one step back and ease them into
a process if they are not comfortable yet.
Or at least just ask how they feel about feedback.
Because also in organizations with performance cycles, it's
just, yeah, it's a thing. And if you're really not
comfortable with it, then it can be very awkward.
It can just be a thing of bureaucracy or going through the
motions and then you lose the essence and value that feedback
gives you, which is a shame. Feedback is one of the most
valuable tools that we have, we just need to utilise it
correctly. Yeah, exactly.
How do you go about feedback? Because what I've seen in
organisations, it's usually two points and they all are prior to
performance cycles. All of a sudden everyone gives
you a form and asks for feedback.
Whereas I've set myself kind of a goal to do it more often, also
outside of performance cycles. And for me it's easy because we
only have one a year. So I I've had this urge to give
out feedback but then other things prioritise and I just
don't do it. How do you usually go about
giving and receiving feedback? So I was relatively new to
mobiquity. Now actually at that stage, I
joined a project that this was just after COVID and I'm from
South Africa. So I I'm completely remote.
The rest of the office, the rest of the team can meet in office
once a week or so. But it's still people are not
really going back to the office yet.
Yeah, so we had our day today. We'd all did our work, but I've,
I kind of felt that we didn't have that connection within the
team yet. So everyone we would communicate
and collaborate and everyone were team players.
But I, I, I just felt we weren't like deeply rooted in, in the
team. So I had a chat with my
competence leader at this stage and he actually recommended that
I talk to one of the other members in the company and they
they recommended speed back. Speed back.
So it's like speed dating
feedback. Really.
Yeah, so that that sounded very interesting.
I asked a bit more about it. So it's actually like you would
do speed dating. You have two minutes to
introduce yourself, the other person has two minutes to
introduce yourself, and then you move on to the next person.
But now you do it for feedback. So you can do it in a set up
where you have tables. But since we were remote, we had
a team score with breakout rooms.
So beforehand, everyone had to prepare just two or three points
of feedback for each person. It had to be constructive and
timely and specific. I can't and actionable, but with
a focus on being kind. So whatever you are saying,
wrap, wrap it in a kind way. So this actually, it worked very
well because this, in this specific scenario, what happened
was we highlighted the things that we valued about our
colleagues. And then if you know, OK, they
value that. I'm always friendly in the
meeting. Then on a day when you don't
feel really up to it, you remember, oh, they're actually
value it. So, so let me greet them in a
very friendly way. So it made everyone feel more
valued. And also the, the constructive
items contributed to the project's success.
But it was, and it's quick, it's two minutes, 2 minutes.
So 2 minutes to give, 2 minutes to receive and then going to the
next breakout room and just seeing how that affected the the
team's atmosphere and connection also made me really understand
the value that we have in feedback.
So, so I really like doing that every now and then with just
within a team setting. So it's everyone UK.
It's like almost a 360 review. So that that's also, that's a
nice approach. And another thing that I also
sometimes try to do within my project team is to have an
internal retro, but with I really like interactive ports or
surveys. So everyone can add words to a
word cloud and it pops up and you see how it grows and have a
couple of Ice Breakers. And then as soon as everyone is
relaxed, they are completely honest and open about things
they they like, things they don't like.
And if they once they realise it's a supportive environment
and relaxed atmosphere and it's OK to say what they feel, then a
lot of constructive items comes out of it.
Nice. I like that a lot.
Actually. I was thinking of doing new Ice
Breakers because I really like those you mentioned kind of when
that group of people came together.
And I think this happens often. The relationships are a bit more
surface level, which might sound hard, but for me it also makes
sense because it's just a group of people that are bunched
together. After that kind of speed dating
feedback round or even maybe a few of them, did you feel like a
more deep rooted connection and with regards to relationships?
Definitely. Yeah, and that's kind of easy to
do then, no? Or at least a more faster way to
build connections. Definitely one thing that I also
realised on my project team that that really helps is to
especially if it's remote to just even now and then have a
session just well, it first started with if we get a new
team member, then we just have a round of introductions.
But sometimes it can just be so professional.
Just I have X years of experience in this tech stack
and I have this experience and this experience.
And then like, OK, let's do another round.
But now perhaps tell us about one of your hobbies or what,
what type of sport you watch. And then the first couple of
times it would just be like, OK, I like to watch soccer or
football. But as you also do that more and
more than it's, you get the answers get elaborated and, and
then in a while, then suddenly you see, OK, people stop making
jokes or people just start laughing more.
And the whole environment and community is just so much more
supportive. And and the team, the
collaboration that comes out of that is amazing.
Yeah, that's crazy. That's the most valuable thing.
I think at the end of the day, it's better to work with people
who you consider like close with or friendly with than just a
superficial, I think, colleague at the end of the day.
But how do you then balance? Because this is something I'm, I
want to do team building continuously.
I don't just want to have team events.
So then what we do is every Sprint cycle, we have a retro
and prior to that I do an ice breaker and I sometimes I didn't
come up with any ice breaker. So an ice breaker was come up
with our ice breaker. So we can do this continuously.
But then sometimes I'm like, OK, how much time do I actually
allocate for this? Because they can go.
If everyone is really, let's say, conversational and friendly
with each other and we know each other, then everyone also wants
to give each other space to have that conversation and that
dialogue and share. And then I feel like, do I need
to cut stuff off? Because otherwise we can just
talk the whole day with regards to the relationships we have
now. That's for me a challenge.
So what we like to do within our front end team, we also have a
check in for the entire team, not MSN every two weeks.
Yeah. So we also tried to find a
balance between using these sessions for upskilling, but
also just having a check in, seeing how's it going with
everyone, just so that you are everyone knows everyone.
It's also how's it going on your project and how's it going
personally? But now what we also recently
started doing is just to just have one session allocated to
just like Ice Breakers. So just every now and then just
having a fun session. So I think it, that's actually a
nice order that we have now. So one session just for check
insurance because you don't want to have only 1/2 an hour for a
check in because you're going to do some, some presentations or
anything. So we decided to rather just
have and a dedicated time for checking in with each other and
then a dedicated time for upskilling and then a dedicated
time for Ice Breakers because check insurance help for the
team collaboration and team spirit.
But the Ice Breakers also found and they actually contribute
just as much as as the check insurance as well.
So. Odds in a project, it's
difficult to find find the balance because you don't have
the dedicated time for Ice Breakers, but otherwise just put
it in there. Yeah, yeah, right now we just go
with it and sometimes I feel like, yeah, we need to, but
yeah, we're doing our best. Everyone does enjoy it though.
I, I see the appreciation because it's a fun moment,
right? And usually it's on a Monday, so
it's also a good way to have a laugh, talk about what happened
in the weekend and actually start.
I feel like I'm, I'm also moving away from like traditional
scrum. I don't know if it's
specifically Scrum, but in any case, stand up can only be like
Max 15 minutes. I've noticed that since we're
not in the office or not even in the same country, sometimes
stand up can span out and people actually want to get to know
each other and there's room for more conversation that is also
outside of work. I think that's completely fine.
I think that's just how this way of working has evolved.
And at the end of the day, if it makes a more stronger team with
regards to what they can say to each other, how they collaborate
and are more effective because of that, then yeah, it can be
way more lenient. And I don't really care about
what what's in a book that says it needs to be a Max 15 minutes.
If we get more out of it the way we do it, I like the way we do
it, yeah. Also doing that for Oscar,
Master, some of our riches. He also just changed it to a
round of check insurance. How's it going with everyone?
Tell us a bit about yourself. And it's very interesting if
you're working with someone, not specifically in your department
in the project, but you, you check in with each other.
You, you talk about work the whole time too.
Then suddenly, oh, these are your hobbies.
Wow, that's actually very interesting.
And then you realise, oh, you've just been talking about work.
Yeah. And work is such a big, large
part of your day, you might as well enjoy it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you touched on you being
remote and I'm assuming some of your team can also be remote, as
well as how people, for example, introduce themselves or tell
them a little bit more about themselves.
Have you also noticed like cultural differences that are
there that you need to accommodate for?
Yes, definitely. So within our Amsterdam office,
since it's so diverse in the Netherlands and so many
cultures, it's the the Amsterdam office, it's kind of the same
approach. Everyone is very relaxed.
I also mentioned previously that we had a very big people focused
way of approaching interviews first, checking if they're a
cultural fit. So within this office, not so
much, but working with some of the other offices, there's
definitely a a big difference. When I joined the company, I
received a book, The Culture Map to kind of prepare you for
working with different cultures or to mostly just be aware that
there are differences. So if you're aware of it and you
notice that the neutralize, OK, it's not that that person is
perhaps angry or it's just their way of communicating.
So if at least you are aware of it, it's easier to to identify
what it is that it's a cultural difference and it's not their
personality or something that's going wrong.
So so being aware of. The move?
Is that better now? Yeah, sounds good still.
OK, sorry about that. No worries, I completely lost my
train of. Thought being aware of the
cultural differences and accommodating for that.
Yes. So if at least you're aware it
helps, but then starting a project or working with other
cultures or other offices, the I think the most important thing
is once you get together to find a way of working that everyone
is comfortable in. So that does take adjusting and
tweaking until you find the sweet spot.
And you might need to evaluate that constantly.
But having an open discussion about it, saying, OK, this is
how we normally do it. How do you normally do it?
How do we want to take it from here in a way that everyone is
happy and that also that helps because then everyone is aware
of the differences, but we also find a sweet spot and everyone,
it works, it gels. What?
What differences in way of working have you seen that?
Because I can't think of any concrete examples.
Well, the one thing about just talking about your professional
career and not, yeah, that that was for me the biggest one,
yeah. Yeah, that will make sense to
me. Yeah, I've seen that one play
out as well. I guess I don't know, maybe
it's, it's probably nature, not necessarily nature, but nurture,
maybe how education goes or how people see themselves
professionally. I know in a, in a more, let's
say Eastern cultures, what can be actually more overtaking with
compared to life, Let's say if we're talking about work balance
and life balance, it's different than how we have it more on the
Western side of things. But then, yeah, if you, if you
go too much, too much West to the US, then it's out of
balance, maybe even at least to compare to my perspective is
what I've heard. I've never experienced that.
I just heard stories. And it would be interesting to
experience such a culture. I think it's a learning
opportunity in any case to see it from the other side.
Well, there was actually a big difference between the South
African culture and the European culture as well.
Yeah. Everyone is so relaxed.
Yeah, Nothing feels urgent. In Europe or South Africa?
In Europe? Oh, OK, so that also took some
adjusting, but knowing, OK, it's not that people in Europe are
lazy. That's the yeah.
It's a work life balance. Yeah, yeah, that's hilarious, by
the way, because it can still be lazy and people just say no,
it's work life. Balance.
So that was at first my initial thought, but then I realized,
no, it's, it's the it's, it's the way of life.
Yeah. And now I love it.
Yeah, that's good. That's funny, you mentioned
strength in or at least having conversations about people's
strengths. And I think I know better now,
but previously when people would be like, OK, what are your
strengths? I know weaknesses.
Weaknesses for me are easy. Maybe this is also how I was
raised because if I have to give feedback, I can give very
concrete negative feedback, but positive feedback is hard for
me. So maybe this is the same with
strengths. But in any case, how do you help
people figure out kind of what strengths they have?
And even then, what is next with regards to personal development?
I have a tool that I like to use.
It's called Gallup Strength Finder or it's part of the
Clifton Strength Finder tool. And according to their research,
there's 34 strings and everyone has these strings, but you are
stronger or in some of them, so they are more natural to you.
And these skills identify how you think about things, how you
feel about things and how you approach them.
So they they have one test that you can do and then afterwards
you can either get all 34 in order or you can just get the
top five. And I really like this.
My husband and I actually did this before we got married as
kind of like a pre marriage preparation for understanding
each other. And it really helped me to
understand him better. And I think he also understands
me better. And I thought I really
understood him, but that just made so much more sense.
For example, you, you get the test and you need to say if you
lean towards A or B in a question, but you only have a, a
limited amount of time. And afterwards, the person
conducting these tests. So we did the test online, but
we had someone that went through the results with us and she
asked my husband, did this test frustrate you?
And he said yes, he wanted more time to think about it.
And in his strings, she, because she asked him specifically,
because one of his strings actually brought this out,
because he, he, he needs time to think about things, to analyse
it and to pick the correct answer.
So even though he was frustrated and he felt it wasn't enough
time, it was apparent in his strings that that's how he
approaches things and how he thinks about it.
So that that's, that's, that was very interesting.
But then you get your five strings and I feel they're very
accurate. I none of these strings were
actually strings that I would consider saying, ah, I'm strong
in this beforehand or this is one of my skills.
So for me, it was very interesting.
And then I thought, OK, that could be a fun exercise.
Let's let my team members do this and see how it goes.
And everyone's strengths vary so much.
So you really realise that even though there's 34 strings, your
unique combination is so unique. And what you bring to the table
is completely different than the rest of your team members.
And how you can actually use this in team settings but also
in your personal life. So then I like to discuss one
strength per session. OK, so first giving an overview,
so the tool itself has can give you a video, give you an
overview about the skill or the strength.
And then you can discuss. They also have some points about
how can you use it in your day-to-day, but also how can you
manage someone with this approach or your strength?
And then what to look out for, because some of the, the
strengths there's for example, if you are an includer and you
want to include people, you actually need to be aware of
that. Not everyone always wants to be
included and there's not always, it's not always a time and place
to include someone. So you need to strategically
realise when to do this and when not.
So it also gives you like be aware of this, but use your
strength like this in your team and in your personal life.
So I really like that. And then you can actually go and
practice it. And as I said there, there were
answers that I didn't expect or either would would say about
myself. But after I actually got these
results, I realized that is this is actually how I think about
things and how I approach it. So so I like this too.
Yeah, I would love to. I think I'm gonna try it out
after. I'll put in the show notes as
well for people that are interested.
Is it free to use? Can I just or do I have to have
a? You buy a voucher, Yeah, or a
code? I can't remember the exact
prices. I think it's like €50 or
something. Gotcha.
Yeah, I, I wonder because specifically when you said like,
I learned a lot about myself and also my partner, like I think I
also know my partner, especially when you get to a point where
you're like, OK, we're getting married.
Yeah. But it's really funny to have
kind of those new insights when you said 34 strengths, 34 sounds
like a lot to me. But yeah, when you look at then
the combination of what you're good at and even, let's say the,
the amount of how good you are at specific skills, I get also
the kind of uniqueness of a person in a specific team.
When you talked about inclusion, I immediately my mind went to
someone that's currently in my team.
I'm like likely. So I would also be very
interested in, let's say the, the skills of my team and see if
I I would have identified them beforehand or I can see that in
behaviour. I really like that, it's one of
the tools I think I don't utilise, but I might now because
I think it could be a lot of fun.
Do you usually introduce things that you like try out first,
maybe on your personal life or by yourself in a team?
Because I want to be hesitant in what I introduce because
otherwise if people are feeling like, oh, we're moving this way
now and or there's a new thing here, it can also be kind of
instable. Yeah, I definitely like to try
things at first, perhaps on myself, on an approach.
This is how I thought about it. This is how I'd break it up.
As an example, yesterday I had a talk at the conference.
So earlier this year we could submit topics to be considered
to, to have the talk. And during this process, I
actually, I really enjoyed the process.
So I thought this is fun and I learnt a lot about myself and
about things I'm passionate about during this process.
So I thought this could be a fun exercise as well.
So now with some of my team members, those who are
interested, obviously not everyone is always interested in
everything, but those who are interested, I followed the same
approach saying if you would now present at a conference, what
would you like to talk about? Go and think about it because
you need to think, do you want to present something very
technical or do you want to look at more of a soft skills
approach or? Identifying for, for example,
impostor syndrome or or what would you want to talk about?
You, you can take any topic that you want.
So go and think about that. And then later you go, OK, now I
have my topic. Now I need to find a title.
After your title, get an overview, get your key
takeaways, break it up into sections, break it up into
slides, add a script, then practice it.
And then you have a presentation, practice it in
front of mirror. See what you need to change,
what you need to do, gain the confidence.
So that's the the approach I followed.
And the first part about picking a topic that was fun.
That's where because you think, ah, perhaps I would like to talk
about this and then later, no, perhaps I would like to talk
about this or I can combine this and just the research and the
introspection that actually goes into what do you, what do you
think is important? What lessons did you learn or
what would you like to share? So I really enjoyed that.
So that's something that I visited myself.
Then I realized, oh, this is really fun.
And now I'm trying out with my team in this as well.
That's great. I like that a lot.
I think about picking a topic for me is actually not the most
fun part to be honest, because I have like, OK, is this going to
be interesting? Do I really want to talk about
this? I, I don't have, let's say,
multiple options. I'm, I have a hard time picking
one. But then when I actually have
one and I go through the motions of, let's say, creating the
content, then I'm like, yeah, this is great.
But everything beforehand, maybe it's my trouble starting things
in the end. But yeah, I've really enjoyed
this conversation so far. Esther, this has been great.
I'm going to read this and back to it and think of some of the
tools I want to incorporate in my own way of working.
Is there anything you still want to share before we round off?
Nothing that comes to mind, right?
Now, all right then, thank you for joining us.
It's been a blast and I'm going to round it off here.
Thank you so much for listening. If you're still here, leave some
comments in the comment section below.
I'll put Esther Social there as well.
So thanks again for listening. We'll see you on the next.