1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,040 Hi everyone, My name is Patrick Akeel and joining me today is 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,560 Prateem Bhosili. She's senior developer, 3 00:00:05,560 --> 00:00:07,280 experienced engineer over at Treble. 4 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:09,960 And I love this conversation because we get into the magic of 5 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,000 search. Search is actually in more 6 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,720 places than you would think initially. 7 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,680 And next to that, we discuss how AI has impacted content 8 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,520 generation, all the content we see on LinkedIn and on Twitter 9 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,400 nowadays or X. And lastly, we discuss the pros 10 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,680 and cons of being in developer experience. 11 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:31,800 So enjoy. Search is always shaped, at 12 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,000 least in my opinion, the user experience. 13 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,840 I go to an e-commerce website and we didn't have vector 14 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,560 search, similarity search. I search on text, I'm trying to 15 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,440 hit a title match basically. And then I can filter for 16 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:46,880 keywords. Those are like attributes of a 17 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,240 certain product, but I can't say give me a product and then just 18 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,640 talk and then the product pops up. 19 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,640 It's always like artifacts, or that's how it has been and now 20 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,880 with new technology we can evolve search as well. 21 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:07,680 Yeah, I, I actually feel like I think a lot about search, which 22 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,280 is a bit weird. Like sometimes I even dream 23 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:19,000 about it or like just because I feel search is is such a deep 24 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:24,640 topic or a problem that we're now realising can be solved in 25 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:29,280 more depth. And let's take like from 26 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:35,920 extremely early days, we would search for CDs in our CD box. 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:41,520 We would search for files. And then we had file systems 28 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,480 come up. And then we started building 29 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:49,480 queries on file systems. So there was no concept of the 30 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,480 tool understanding what you mean. 31 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:57,240 It was always giving what you literally ask for or like 32 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,360 literally we, we search based on I DS, right? 33 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,560 Like we have I DS with which we connect, we do joins. 34 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:09,199 And then we had this whole layer of like web search comments, 35 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:13,320 search engines, where we started doing the same thing but for 36 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,160 Internet. We started putting the exact 37 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,920 things that we want and then we would get results around those 38 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:23,520 things. I don't know if you remember 39 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:29,280 when I was in school and I would not get some things that I'm 40 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:30,880 looking like I'm searching online. 41 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,120 My seniors and my friends would tell me you should add this plus 42 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,000 between 2:00 between two keywords. 43 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:45,560 Like if you're looking for AAI think I shouldn't say coffee 44 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,680 shop specifically when I'm, but like if I'm looking for a 45 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:55,120 sandwich shop, then you should say sandwich shop plus like the 46 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,440 area that you're in, like for example, Mumbai or like 47 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,960 Amsterdam. And then it will show you more 48 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:04,120 results because that's how the search engine actually connected 49 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,560 keywords. And now we are at a point where 50 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:13,800 we can literally put in things like the best sandwich near my 51 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,160 house. You don't even have to put your 52 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:20,480 house address anymore. Like it's so much into, Yeah, 53 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:25,680 we've come far, far, far long ahead from where we were in 54 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,240 terms of search, I feel. Yeah, I've never thought about 55 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,800 that, that before the Internet, the way we used to search it was 56 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,520 like alphabetical sorting. And then probably in there you 57 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,000 have a certain another sorting to get to certain documents that 58 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,680 you would store and you would store them meticulously to be 59 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,520 able to find them. And then also later on, and now 60 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,880 you can ask and the content kind of, yeah, contextualizes and 61 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:52,000 knows based on your ask what the right or at least predicts what 62 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,040 the answer should be. That has never been there 63 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:55,480 before. Yeah. 64 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,880 And even before, like everybody's still had their own 65 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:05,240 system for search and strategy. Like some people love to keep 66 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,240 things chronologically. Some people like to keep things 67 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,720 colour coded. And like, if you talk to like, I 68 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,560 remember my uncle, my husband's uncle, actually, he has his 69 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,240 books, like, he has a big collection of Tintin, Tintin's 70 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,040 books. And he has his own way of 71 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,920 keeping them. And that's not in terms of the 72 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,560 year when they were published, but it's based on Tintin's like, 73 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,400 journey from one country to another. 74 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,040 Like, wow. And it's, yeah, that's his way. 75 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,920 He's like, no, no, no, you, you can't look for the one where he, 76 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:37,760 when he was in France. You have to look when he was on 77 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,360 the ship trip. And it's like, OK, so everyone 78 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,040 has their search strategies, no matter if they know the 79 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,120 technicalities or no, I think. Yeah, I feel like search is in a 80 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,800 lot more places. But if I I put my software 81 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,120 engineering hat on the intricacies of search and how it 82 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,320 worked, I never really dove into that unless I had to implement 83 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,640 it specifically. And then it would either be on a 84 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,600 database level or it will be software as a service and then I 85 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,520 would really dive into it. Do you think or would you advise 86 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,600 people to dive into search just because it's becoming kind of 87 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,160 more ubiquitous also with AI technology nowadays? 88 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:19,280 Definitely, I was myself not interested in search like at 89 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:21,320 all. Like my experience with search 90 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,000 was if I'm searching for something in a file or like on 91 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:30,960 APDF and if that tool had a good search system, I would get the 92 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,320 answer and I was happy if I didn't get something. 93 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,520 I was just frustrated like that was it with me and search like 94 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:41,280 I'm searching for things I either find that I don't, but it 95 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:46,520 was really when I was working with Saria Libi and I got I got 96 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,200 a long time that I spent with the search engineer Emmanuel. 97 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,240 His name is Emmanuel. And he was really, he really 98 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,800 opened the doors for me and I was working very closely with 99 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,880 him. And that's when I got to see how 100 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:08,080 search looks on a database query level to what is the output of 101 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,400 it. Like how does that actually look 102 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:18,480 like when someone's searching for a word or even for a phrase 103 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:23,440 and they have a big data set or a database of a collection of 104 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,160 things? And when you're adding a layer 105 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,720 of search on it, how does it technically work? 106 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:35,400 And it for me, it was a lot of people think AI is magical, but 107 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,920 for me, search was magical because I was like, OK, like 108 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,720 this is how like you actually get like search and this is how 109 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,560 you actually find that one word that you've been looking in your 110 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,360 whole PDF. And I'm actually sad that I 111 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,240 didn't get into search earlier. But yeah, I did. 112 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:59,080 I would definitely ask anyone and everyone to just read more 113 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:04,000 about it maybe and understand what happens when LLMS are 114 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,320 searching or like when we're using Search Insider I DS now 115 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,960 like with all the I DS like, how is that tool giving you what you 116 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,760 want? Yeah, I. 117 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,560 Mean for me it's, it's super fascinating that search, I 118 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,640 always looked at it from a buying perspective, e-commerce 119 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,480 perspective, attributes to a certain product. 120 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:24,720 And that's what I'm trying to manipulate. 121 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,080 That's what I'm trying to find. And then with websites, it's 122 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,120 kind of the same. You have a document, it's a page 123 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,880 somewhere, it has keywords, and then those keywords you're 124 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,560 trying to hit and you're trying to match on that. 125 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,640 And now we have something completely different, right? 126 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,840 I can just speak in my language and then it's still very much 127 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,680 search because it just tries to contextualize based on language. 128 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,120 It tries to similarity match. It goes through a whole 129 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,760 prediction tree. I mean, LLMS are still kind of 130 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,840 prediction algorithms and that's basically it. 131 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,520 But it is in essence, I feel like it's still a search 132 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,240 problem. Same when I look on Google Maps 133 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,680 and I'm trying to do something that's nearby, like that's 134 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,520 geospatial searches, just search on a different axis. 135 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,120 It is kind of almost everywhere. Yeah, yeah. 136 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:06,080 Which? Is pretty cool. 137 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,320 Yeah, I agree. Yeah. 138 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,960 Again, I don't want to get into that depth of like, I just think 139 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:20,000 also like when we when you spoke about geospatial search and I 140 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,880 think it's the combinations that we are getting good at now like 141 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,520 hybrid search, the concept of like combining two different 142 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,680 types of searches is what's really unlocking a lot of things 143 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:38,880 for us now initially with and I think Amazon was a big pioneer 144 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,520 in terms of like this whole recommendation systems when we 145 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,800 would buy something and then it would recommend a similar 146 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:49,040 product. And I feel that also really 147 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,800 pushed the boundaries for semantic search because it could 148 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,960 make the connection between what would be the next, what would be 149 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,120 something that a person would like to buy. 150 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,200 If they've bought basically a packet of popcorn, then they 151 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,720 would probably also want some ice cream. 152 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,120 Or if they actually bought movies, then they would probably 153 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,360 also want popcorn. There's this very famous 154 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,680 research, I'm not sure by which e-commerce company, but about 155 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:20,960 like what people buy in supermarkets. 156 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,600 And there was this research that around bottles of beers or 157 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,480 popcorn, there would be diapers because there was always like if 158 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,640 dads are having like a, a, a movie night by themselves and 159 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,840 like the mum is the mum is like out for a, a night for herself. 160 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,000 And then the kid is with the dad. 161 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,720 Then he would want to pick up a a beer and and diapers for the 162 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,840 kid because I was like, oh, interesting. 163 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,120 Yeah. So this this concept of hybrid 164 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,160 search is what is really got us to another level. 165 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,920 We've had full text search, which has helped us search 166 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:04,560 through textual things and now we combine that with any other 167 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:07,720 search that we want like geospatial plus full text, 168 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:13,840 semantic plus full text. So yeah, I think there will be a 169 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,240 lot more with how we improve on image. 170 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:23,040 I feel understanding images, converting images into vectors, 171 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,480 so and that's going to also be big, I feel for sure. 172 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:29,400 Interesting. I I thought of hybrid search, 173 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,040 but I I can't think of a good way to have a hybrid search 174 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,080 where there's semantic search and then keyword search. 175 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,640 Like I don't have a good use case for those yet. 176 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,960 If I have semantic search, I can just speak a natural language 177 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,840 and then there's a similarity match and there's a certain 178 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,920 level of accuracy. Maybe having keyword search or 179 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,920 full text search next to it UPS that accuracy, but I don't know 180 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,480 when I would use that. Yeah, you're right. 181 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:58,240 Like semantic search will still is still works on some seven 182 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,280 level of prediction, right? Like you have you, you'll 183 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,720 convert them into vectors and then you'll match the vectors to 184 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,720 the closest vector from your data set. 185 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,920 And then there's keyword search, which is literally matching your 186 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,440 keyword and searching for that keyword. 187 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,560 So if you combine them, then you make sure that you're not 188 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:21,840 missing out on any, any possible match from your data set. 189 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:28,320 And that's even if it's not, so it helps with accuracy when it's 190 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,800 built on top of each other, but even when they're, when they're 191 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,400 used together and then an average of these two searches 192 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,680 are made. The possibility is that you 193 00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:43,240 don't lose out on similar matches or potential matches. 194 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,960 So based on like what use case you're going for, like if if the 195 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,600 use case is like you're looking for a house, then it's not about 196 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,240 one exact house. It's about how many houses fit 197 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,640 into your search category and you want to maximize on that. 198 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,360 That's when you would want to have more hybrid search power. 199 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,520 Whereas where there is semantic as well to say that I want a 200 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,480 good vibe. Now, what is good vibe like? 201 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:17,800 How is someone going to say, but if the vector data has more 202 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:25,360 similar objectives or similar, similar things defining houses 203 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,160 being like, I feel positive in this house and this had good 204 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,400 light. And then the the meting model 205 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,720 could connect these two things and that could come into your 206 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,000 search category. Then like in your search 207 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:41,680 results, whereas no full text search is going to give you a a 208 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:44,240 good wipe house. So depends on what use case 209 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:45,640 you're using for. That's how I look at it. 210 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,320 Got you. Yeah, you and I spoke before the 211 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,080 show specifically about the role of developer advocacy and you 212 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,240 share something which to me was like a really interesting 213 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,720 insight that developer advocates have this kind of ebb and flow 214 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,080 with regards to the tools that they develop. 215 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,880 But really when you're internal somewhere, when you're a product 216 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,560 engineer, you're part of a team and you you're there for years, 217 00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:08,080 you can really go deep with regards to technology. 218 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,200 How do you combine this kind of going deep with regards to your 219 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,600 current role now? This is actually something that 220 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,640 a lot of developer advocates struggle with. 221 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,880 I have struggled with that as well. 222 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,960 You have to figure that out with the team you're working with. 223 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,000 First of all, it needs to be something that you want. 224 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:34,640 I feel we are at a point where it is OK if you are specifically 225 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:40,640 not chasing depth. Like if you want to have more 226 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,520 broader and more generic information for more things and 227 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,080 you want to be in this role where you can quickly pick up 228 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,080 different things, test them out, try them out, and if once they 229 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,360 feel more logical for your team to pick up, you can pass them on 230 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,000 to your team. This, this would be more towards 231 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,120 a community side of role where you just want to, you want to 232 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:06,160 know enough that you can pass things to the right team. 233 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:12,320 But then for people who still want depth for them, it's 234 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,760 something that they need to carefully sit down with your 235 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,400 team or look for roles where they offer you depth. 236 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,760 Like they're OK with you spending some time with 237 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,760 engineering teams, they're OK with you taking complete 238 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,880 engineering projects. And then it's a good divide 239 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,680 between some developer advocacy part, which involves like going 240 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,080 out there explaining how the product works, like making sure 241 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,520 that developers know how to use their product, but then going 242 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,520 back working with the engineering team, working with 243 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,600 the product team, spending months and just like building an 244 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,640 SDK or whatever is important for your tools. 245 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,480 So it's, it's a mix of it depends. 246 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,440 And like it, it's a mix of like what your company can offer you 247 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,200 and what the product can actually benefit from your 248 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,160 experience as well. That's. 249 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,520 When you're creating projects or when you're creating software, 250 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,520 what about it gives you joy or gives you energy? 251 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,440 It is the output for sure. Like this was one of the reasons 252 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,920 why I could never connect with front end. 253 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,120 OK, so I have always been a back end developer. 254 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,080 I have had my time, but like I, I of course build whenever any 255 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,480 project needs AUI. We are at a point where we 256 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,080 cannot shy away from building AUI. 257 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,120 We have all the tools right there and it's it's not rocket 258 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,640 science. Like we literally have templates 259 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,360 out there. But I've never really been able 260 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,480 to connect with front end because I feel there is still 261 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,960 more steps to success when you're building a beautiful 262 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,760 website or a product, product front face. 263 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,160 Whereas with back end, it's AP is when we're talking about AP 264 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,360 is back end databases. The result, the output, the, the 265 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,520 success is so fast. Like you hit a query, you know 266 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,520 if it's the right or wrong you, you hit, you hit a command, you 267 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:12,840 know if you're doing the right thing or not. 268 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,600 You run a benchmark. The benchmarks will tell you if 269 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:16,960 you're going in the right direction or not. 270 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:24,960 So for me, it is fastest output that first connects me to 271 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,480 building more, which is also something that my partner keeps 272 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:29,800 telling me that I need to work on. 273 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,800 Like you're not always going to get that quick dopamine hit. 274 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,600 Sometimes you're going to have to push, push and then you're 275 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,000 going to get it later. And I think that's why I've been 276 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:48,400 in the developer advocacy role, because for me here, it's I 277 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,720 build a lot of projects, so I get more of this dopamine hit. 278 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,280 Dopamine hit, Yeah. Yeah. 279 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,240 And I think it makes sense for me. 280 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,240 Like, I don't know why it is, but when I would solve a problem 281 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,840 that in my opinion, I thought was complex or it was something 282 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,480 that I had never done before. Yet even though it wouldn't 283 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,560 immediately have business value, even the just the way I wrote it 284 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,760 or the logic that I put into place, it would be something 285 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,720 that I was happy about. That would be something I would 286 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,400 be proud of. And I feel like with a lot of 287 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,920 tooling nowadays that that goal post of like output, it's moving 288 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,680 because I'm not necessarily writing that creative part is 289 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,520 moving away more and more to tooling to make me more 290 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,440 productive. But then this kind of enjoyment, 291 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,640 it changes for me. I need to achieve more to feel 292 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,640 kind of that same amount of joy. Yeah, or you just miss out on 293 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,600 the joys that you could have had to like the non assisted way. 294 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,240 Yeah, we are. Yeah. 295 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,640 That's, I think this is also something we spoke about, right. 296 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,640 Like previously when we were chatting about the joy of doing 297 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,680 things has changed and like what we get joy from has now changed. 298 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,440 I don't really think it's good or bad. 299 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:13,800 It's just that the goal posters change now and I feel IDs like 300 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:19,480 AI DS are still not there yet. If you have to support really 301 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:26,200 complex solutions like C++ or if you're working with hardware or 302 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:30,840 Rust for example, it's still is not going to give you the most 303 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,080 elegant solution. It might point you to some 304 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,640 solutions, but it's really, it really performs well when you're 305 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:44,920 using the most highly used languages like JavaScript or PHP 306 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,080 or majorly JavaScript. Yeah, I think most of the 307 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,400 success that I've seen with people building things has been 308 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,480 with JavaScript. So if you still want to get that 309 00:18:56,120 --> 00:19:02,000 joy from writing code, I think maybe more languages like Rust 310 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,000 or core languages like CC Plus Plus might still give you that 311 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,880 joy I feel. Yeah, yeah, I would have to move 312 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,040 to those languages. Like I feel like if I can draw 313 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,000 an analogy between like creating software and like being a 314 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,560 painter, I would. I think as a painter I would 315 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,520 enjoy painting and like the different type of brush strokes. 316 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,840 Like that's what I would get my enjoyment out of. 317 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,640 And now if I have an AI enabled painter, they can just click and 318 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,720 drag and like put colors or they can completely make a new 319 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,960 painting in the form of minutes. Like that's what it feels like 320 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:34,720 now. And then the output is like a 321 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,960 beautiful painting or not. And it's still very subjective. 322 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:44,320 Can I look at it differently because with this analogy, I 323 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,240 could never paint anything good and now AI helps me paint good 324 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,000 things. Like even if it's a one click 325 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,640 thing, I do get to say that I build that like I I prompted 326 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,400 that and that gives like. So it again depends from where 327 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,880 you're coming from. Like what for artists, 328 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,960 definitely it is going to feel like it's. 329 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,480 It's taking over a lot of their creative overhead. 330 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,720 But for example, like my sister-in-law, she's an artist. 331 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,120 And the last time we met her, which was six months ago, she 332 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,120 absolutely hated Chat GPTI. She absolutely hated the fact 333 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:27,880 that, like they, they're coming up with posters which like 334 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,480 businesses are using. And no, like people won't, don't 335 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,240 want to like, rather give her a contract to make that poster. 336 00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:38,040 Yeah. And we spoke to her last week 337 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,320 and she's thinking of starting her own business now. 338 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,600 And she was, she was making business cards. 339 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,080 And then she sent me and my husband some suggestions of like 340 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,040 what she's doing. And we were shocked that she 341 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,720 made it with Chad. And you're like, hey, she's 342 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,480 like, no, you're like, yeah, it's really. 343 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,600 I was busy. I needed some quick ideas to get 344 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:00,840 out. And this was really nice. 345 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,800 I was surprised. And now I can, I trade over that 346 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,440 like, of course I put that last stroke from my side and I'll 347 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,960 make sure that it has my touch. But yeah, it's, it really caught 348 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,240 my vibe. And I'm like, I think this is 349 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:18,120 what this is a good way to think about using AI assisted tools to 350 00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:23,240 to, to use them when you're when you have to get things done and 351 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,160 then go back to things doing them manually when you really 352 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,920 want to get joy out of them maybe. 353 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,600 Yeah, I think so too. Like it is this shift then more 354 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,120 towards OK, what are you trying to achieve and then the way to 355 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:40,760 do it that can be accelerated by tooling by whether it's Shachi, 356 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,440 BT or if I'm a software engineer, but generating code. 357 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,520 Basically in the end, we are going to focus more on on 358 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,080 outcomes and hopefully in a good way because we're doing a lot of 359 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:51,800 stuff now. I see start-ups kind of spring 360 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,720 up like mushrooms and they're all trying to find the gold with 361 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,440 regards to AI and what they can do. 362 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,280 That is, I think, I don't know if I call it a hype cycle, but 363 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:01,560 it's definitely a trend that I've seen. 364 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,520 Again, there are winners, there are losers, some in like in any 365 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:13,160 kind of cycle, right? And I'm actually seeing a huge 366 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:21,600 growth and like a a pump in security products and tools that 367 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,000 just make sure like whatever, whatever you're like white 368 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,400 coating or building with AI, it's secure. 369 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:32,120 And yeah, they know nobody from like nobody's complaining. 370 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,320 Like we want everyone to build more things. 371 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,440 We want more authority. We want more businesses. 372 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,720 Like we, we don't really want more monopolies, right? 373 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:50,400 Like, so just giving the the power to people to build is, I 374 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,640 think a net good thing. Of course there will be people 375 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,360 who will always find bad ways to do something. 376 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:01,080 And I don't think this is new. Like this has been with like 377 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,680 what every technology that has we've built with like, yeah, 378 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,120 it's the way we look at like, do you we do we want to go ahead 379 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:11,480 with it and do a net good for the community or do we want to 380 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,760 look at like, oh, just the bad things? 381 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,640 Yeah. It's funny that you say that 382 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,200 because the, the possibilities that we have now, like it, it 383 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,960 changes behaviour. And with that behaviour change, 384 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,680 generating code, multiple lines of codes, like it goes beyond 385 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,640 the grasp of kind of what a human can input, unless that 386 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,560 becomes your day job. But still the security aspect of 387 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,680 it and that vibe or that trend that you've seen, I think it 388 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,000 makes sense because people are trying to maintain and control 389 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,520 or at least accommodate for this change in behaviour. 390 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,560 Yeah. This is something that we 391 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,760 actually are seeing a lot of treble like the company that I 392 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:51,160 work at, we, we work with a lot of APIs and we, our major goal 393 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,280 is to make sure like people are building secure APIs because 394 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,840 that's how we are communicating with most of our micro services 395 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,880 and different logics. And well, the amount of APIs 396 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,360 that people are writing has increased immensely. 397 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,440 But with that, the amount of insecure APIs that people are 398 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,200 building, the amount of secrets that are just going out, like, 399 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,200 that's crazy. Like, and there's one weird 400 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,560 start that I had actually presented last month that I'm 401 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,560 going to present this month as well in Berlin is when we 402 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,720 actually looked at some numbers, like based on languages and like 403 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,000 what, what frameworks or what, what developers are building 404 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,400 more secure, writing more secure code. 405 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,120 Unfortunately, it was JavaScript that came out to be really, 406 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:44,400 really insecure or just writing bad code. 407 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:49,360 And I wonder that's why is that? Like, is it because of the ample 408 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:54,320 amount of bad code that's just available to train on or or just 409 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,880 because it's in it's language for everyone to pick up? 410 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,240 For me, I think it's the, it's the latter. 411 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,680 Like I, I had a person on, he was from the Rust community and 412 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,040 he said it's interesting. Rust is a language. 413 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,600 It has this kind of big hurdle to get up and running to feel 414 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,280 productive. It's very different from 415 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,200 something that doesn't have many language specific things like Go 416 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,640 for example, or JavaScript gives you this freedom and you can do 417 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,640 many things in different ways. Like it has an up and down side. 418 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,680 But he said if I'm doing a job interview and someone has never 419 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,400 done Rust before and I can see they actually wrote high quality 420 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,920 Rust code, that makes them a good engineer by virtue of them 421 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,640 being able to do it in Rust. For him, it already UPS the bar 422 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,800 with what he sees in quality in a person, and he doesn't have 423 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,840 that same feeling with the rest of JavaScript. 424 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:45,360 Yeah. Well, I do write a lot of 425 00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:48,000 JavaScript code and I think it's it is the language of web. 426 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,520 I will definitely say that for sure. 427 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,880 But I think overall there is a lot to catch up when it comes to 428 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,400 building secure applications in in JavaScript for sure. 429 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:06,200 I think again, for me, I feel the reason why I do not agree 430 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:12,200 that trust is has this history of like building safe 431 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,440 applications or like there's actually again an interesting 432 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:22,400 talk that I was attending from a senior developer at Tesla and 433 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,280 his whole job was one of his jobs. 434 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,960 Actually, I don't want to quote him on something wrong, but was 435 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:37,120 to figure out how many security concerns or just malware is 436 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:44,080 available in Rust crates. And he mentioned that sometimes 437 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:51,120 even the official crates have a lot of like buggy like security 438 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:55,080 concerns and this will just go past right Like nobody is going 439 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,360 to check for them. And it's just, I think it's 440 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:03,400 because Rust is a niche. That's why it has this 441 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,760 personality of like being the smarter language. 442 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,400 I don't know. I personally feel like, yeah, it 443 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,880 is great. There are use cases, but to each 444 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,960 of it's own, like what I wouldn't like if I want to build 445 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:26,240 a web app and I wanted like to do the like, I wouldn't build it 446 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,920 in trust, I would build it in JavaScript. 447 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,960 So yeah, depends on what use case you're going for while 448 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,240 you're building something, yeah. I feel like Rust is, and I, I 449 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,200 talked to him about it as well in that episode specifically. 450 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,720 I feel like it's a very new language compared to the 451 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,400 languages that we have out there. 452 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,040 And any language has to have years under their belt before 453 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,920 they become mainstream. Because there's a lot of 454 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,520 languages that I can't name them that I don't know about that are 455 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,280 probably new. But the ones that are 456 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,240 established, I feel like Rust is kind of one of the later ones 457 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,280 that came out that is now established in the community. 458 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,800 I actually don't know how old Rust is. 459 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,640 I know, I know. Go is 25 years old, maybe around 460 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,480 25. 25. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 461 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,480 I think it was 2000s when like Rob Bike and the whole 462 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,320 engineering team from Google built it. 463 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,520 I don't know, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was 464 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,000 2000s, yeah. Gotcha. 465 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,120 Yeah, I thought really it was like from 20 tens, but I'll, 466 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:23,640 I'll look. It up? 467 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:24,920 I don't know, could be. Yeah. 468 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,400 But yeah, when I'm thinking about, OK, how, how does a 469 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,000 language get adoption and how does it get created, especially 470 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,920 now with Productivity Tools, I feel like Rust might be one of 471 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,640 the last languages to be like a higher level language 472 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,120 specifically for humans. If we're going to get a new 473 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,800 language, it might be something specifically for LLMS. 474 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,760 I do, yeah. This is something that I agree. 475 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:56,880 I also feel like it is always like, for example, I've been 476 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,480 tinkering a lot. I'm not good at Python. 477 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,120 Like I didn't really spend a lot of time tinkering with Python or 478 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,560 like, but I've been now trying to understand the whole machine 479 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:19,360 learning ecosystem through Rust. So if I'm building any, any CLI 480 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,400 based tool or like an AI tool, I prefer, I actually prefer 481 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:28,600 building it with Rust. And the there are enough tools 482 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:37,600 to, to, to have the same result as Python in Rust now. 483 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:43,720 And that's just because how well, how quickly you can pour 484 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,640 things in Python, and I mean in Rust, sorry. 485 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,440 And yeah, I do agree. Like I'm I've been really 486 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,680 enjoying using Rust for machine learning specifically. 487 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,840 It's been a while since I've picked up a new language. 488 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,600 Like I I haven't tried to pick up a new language with the 489 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,360 tooling that is out there nowadays. 490 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,640 I've always been fan of Go. I like TypeScript as well, but 491 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,320 like Go is like my bread and butter. 492 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,760 That's it. I think it would be fun though, 493 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,440 with the tooling that is now out there as kind of an accelerator 494 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,360 to a learning process to pick up a new language and kind of feel 495 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:26,960 out the intricacies. Yeah, I how I picked up Rust and 496 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,240 Go was again, like Rust was one of the major languages that my 497 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,760 previous company used because the database was built in Rust, 498 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,360 like it was first written in Go and then it was just built in 499 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,760 Rust. But it's always fun to like have 500 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,640 the same benchmarks in both the languages And that gives me 501 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,320 like, that's that again, is something that gives me like a 502 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,960 lot of joy and like it's fun to see and it's sort of like, it 503 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,480 hurts your ego if like your, your language isn't really doing 504 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,200 well and comes to benchmarks. And Rust and Go is always 505 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,720 something that go hand in hand, like during the compile time, 506 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,360 Rust will definitely take more time, but when you have an 507 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,400 executable, it's super fast. Like it's, it has literally no 508 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,440 like start up time. And that's something that you'll 509 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,280 you'll feel. Whereas with Go, compile times 510 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,240 are more faster. But then there are times when 511 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:25,440 you will feel that before, like you'll feel the breaks before, 512 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,040 like your application starting in. 513 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,680 Yeah. So just running the same, the 514 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,720 same tools with two different languages and checking 515 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,640 benchmarks and like how much time both of them take to run, I 516 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,160 think that really clicks. At least that clicks for me, 517 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:42,800 yeah. Do you remember any interesting 518 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,440 insights from those benchmark comparisons? 519 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:54,920 Yeah, it was Primogen actually, who did a whole stream about, 520 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:05,120 I'm not sure what he was. He was running on two different 521 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:12,560 systems like I think they that it was, I think it was ACLI tool 522 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,560 itself. Like 1 was built with Go and one 523 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,040 was built with thrust and Go actually performed well on that 524 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,960 one. And the reason that he he 525 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:29,720 figured out was because of like Go is language for CLI. 526 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,840 Like I personally feel like the fastest way to build a quick CLI 527 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,840 tool is just pick up Go. Do you think? 528 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,160 I mean, I, I've built a lot of CLI things in Co and I've seen 529 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,680 companies also do that. Yeah, it's. 530 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,840 Pure joy, right. Like, and I think the tooling in 531 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,760 Go is really good for CL is I wouldn't again, like try to 532 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,000 build a web app with core, like try that. 533 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,000 But for CL is it's it's pure joy. 534 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:55,560 Yeah. Actually, I don't, I don't 535 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,440 really remember what it was, but the conclusion was that Go 536 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,720 performed well compared to Rust. And I was like, OK, yeah, yeah, 537 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,680 I'm on the right direction. Like, yeah. 538 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,440 Yeah, I like that. I mean, I've done a lot with Go, 539 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,880 but I I want to switch more so to the content side because I, I 540 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,880 am a lot on LinkedIn, not so much on Twitter. 541 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,320 I know you're more on Twitter and people have started 542 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,920 complaining specifically on LinkedIn that there's a lot of 543 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,840 AI generated content, AI generated comments. 544 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,160 What is your thoughts on kind of AI generated content that 545 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,600 nowadays? What have you seen? 546 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,360 There are a few super generic things with the AI generated 547 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:37,200 content that are like red flag, like unwielding in the age of 548 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,360 and all of that. And that's just unfortunate. 549 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,560 Like if I was reading the same language maybe like 10 years ago 550 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,040 in a novel, I would have loved that. 551 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,520 I would have, I would have felt like I am connected to that 552 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,680 thing. But now because it's so 553 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,920 overused, yes, it does definitely put me off a content 554 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,080 piece. Like I will not read A blog if 555 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,600 it starts within the age of something something unless it is 556 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,120 written by someone like who is well known. 557 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,159 Like for example, if like like Paul Graham writes like PG 558 00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:16,600 writes an article and it starts with like in the age of and I'm 559 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,520 like, OK, let me give it a chance. 560 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,440 Like like I know this person has a history of writing good 561 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,400 things. I'll give it a chance. 562 00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,440 But if it's someone that I don't know, or even if someone like I, 563 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,480 if yeah, it's, it's a serious red flag, at least for me. 564 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,719 Yeah, I think it's hilarious how people really enjoyed it. 565 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,400 And then content creation got easier, so then people started 566 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,239 doing that. Like writing is the simplest 567 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,480 thing because also a model loves token output. 568 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,679 It will just, it would just keep going. 569 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:46,760 Do you want me to add on top of this? 570 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,080 Do you want me to give more options? 571 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,920 And if you just, if the aim is to write the longest thing ever, 572 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,320 we are now really good at that. And then people try and do that. 573 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,560 And then that's what you see. And then people have this kind 574 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,560 of, yeah, they don't like it from a reading perspective. 575 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,560 We don't really write from a reading perspective anymore. 576 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,000 We write to be writers. And everyone can be a writer 577 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:11,480 nowadays. I don't like, I feel like we 578 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:17,240 still like to be engaged in something and if it's really 579 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:21,080 well generated by AI, where some like, I don't know if it is 580 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,200 generated really well, but I cannot catch it, I will read 581 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,200 through it and like I will, I will enjoy it unless like 582 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,440 someone puts it in my brain that, Oh, you know what, like 583 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,520 this was generated by AI. And then I was like, is my 584 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,400 system OK? Like, how did I enjoy this? 585 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,920 Like, and then I'll try to assess like what was exactly 586 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,800 that, which is again fine. My end goal is to enjoy a piece 587 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,680 of article. Like I am OK, like reading AI 588 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,680 generated like, because we read like things that chat GPD shares 589 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,920 as well. But that's like something that 590 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,680 we need, We need that piece of information which we don't have. 591 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:55,800 And that's when we're reading it. 592 00:35:56,720 --> 00:36:01,280 But if like if it, if it's concepts that are already out 593 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:07,320 there, then I would probably go back for a 5 year old video or a 594 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,560 five year old blog. And like I said, because I know 595 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:15,560 that has directly come from someone's pure understanding and 596 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,360 they're going to write it as raw as possible. 597 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,520 And they're not going to put a layer of like polishing with it 598 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,440 with AI because I don't need that. 599 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,480 I want to know your thoughts. I want to read you as a reader. 600 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,240 And I'm not going to judge you if you have a spelling mistake 601 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,040 unless like it's your interview application. 602 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,680 I'm an interviewer, but I'm going to judge you if you're 603 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,800 going to give me the same in the age of blah, blah, blah, blah. 604 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,600 And like the same steps again and again. 605 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,920 Of course. I'm so yeah, to the point being 606 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:49,120 like, I definitely keep an eye out for the kind of, I actually 607 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:54,320 read very less now, which is unfortunate because I am, I'm, I 608 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,880 want to make sure that I'm investing my time in the right 609 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,320 thing. And that's where X like, for 610 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:07,040 example, like it's so impulsive. And I don't think people even 611 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,000 have the time to pass their tweets through AI before like, 612 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,120 like you're just like writing posts when you're in like I most 613 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:16,960 of my tweets are impulsive tweets. 614 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,320 And that's, that's what they call shit posting, I guess. 615 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,680 And that doesn't really happen with LinkedIn. 616 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,560 I doubt anyone like like, yeah, I don't really like tokens. 617 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,360 No one's going to like write a two letter thing. 618 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,800 It's always a long essay on LinkedIn, so it's again a lot of 619 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,880 energy involved as well, I feel. It's interesting that indeed, I 620 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,280 think people are looking for places to be authentic and to 621 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,360 also find authentic people. And if you have kind of a 622 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,640 shorter context, I mean just I don't know how how Twitter is 623 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,840 nowadays, but before I think a few years back you could only do 624 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,200 X amount of characters. I think that has now increased, 625 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:56,000 but if you could only do 50 characters or only do 100 626 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,520 characters, then it would be very hard to. 627 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,520 Why would you do a prompt to get those 50 or 100 characters? 628 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,600 Then you just write kind of what's on top of your mind 629 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,520 because it's only this small anyway and LinkedIn is not like. 630 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,160 That no, even on X like there are these like bots that people 631 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,280 now like make which can give AI generated answers. 632 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,040 Oh yeah. And I have this block policy. 633 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:23,800 Like I will specifically take time out to block you just 634 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,440 because you gave me an AI generated response. 635 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,720 Like if you would have just said anything else like you would, 636 00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:33,120 even if you've said something like critical about what I 637 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,040 wrote, I would have actually engaged and I would have like 638 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,680 shared my thoughts on that because yeah, yeah, I'm there to 639 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,520 like spend time as well. But if you're going to give me 640 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,200 an AI generated response just for like getting more views or 641 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,960 something, I am blocking you and I'm first going to call you out 642 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,480 saying like hey, I am blocking you for creating AAI generated 643 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,440 response and then. Yeah. 644 00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:58,480 Do you use any AI in the content that you write? 645 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:06,080 Yes, of course. Like when you're writing things, 646 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,960 for example, like release notes or when you're writing things 647 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,400 that will be read not just for learning purposes, but for 648 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,760 compliance purposes or things like where your spellings 649 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,000 actually matter. And like this is something that 650 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,120 will be passed from one documentation, again, is a very 651 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,280 good area where you can use AI because that's not somewhere 652 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,320 where I'm looking for emotion or to connect with someone. 653 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,440 I'm, I need to know how things are done. 654 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:39,080 And that's where AI does help to have a faster flow or just 655 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:40,840 connecting the dots. And I'm OK with that. 656 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:47,040 But yeah, again, I feel if you've been a writer and you've 657 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,960 written like written your real thoughts, you will still be a 658 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,320 good writer. AI is not going to make you a 659 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,960 bad writer. But if you're starting to write 660 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,120 with AI, then I'm a little bit worried. 661 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:06,240 Like then I would, I wouldn't. Writing is something I don't 662 00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:07,920 think you should do with AI specifically. 663 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,280 Like make it write your code, that's fine. 664 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,720 Like make it write your CSS code like that's the best thing. 665 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:18,400 But write your raw thoughts. I feel like your thoughts should 666 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,840 be your own and that's where you should definitely shouldn't use 667 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,160 AI. Yeah, I feel like this is this 668 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,080 is the same with regards to, OK, what is your goal in the end? 669 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,560 If you have to write content to have a landing page for a 670 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,640 product that you're selling, I would say sure, use use AI. 671 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,800 But if this is your thoughts and you're sharing your learnings or 672 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,240 like your writing requires critical thinking, that is part 673 00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:43,160 of who you are. And if you let AI kind of go 674 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:44,960 HAM, is it then really your thoughts? 675 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,520 Is it then really you being authentic or is it something 676 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,960 that is just being regurgitated and that is kind of copy paste 677 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,920 able everywhere else? You know what, like I have never 678 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:59,600 really understood the meaning of the word like, you know, like in 679 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,040 SEO marketing, like there's this word known as copy. 680 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:09,240 Like can you write me a copy? And well, it is really important 681 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:12,280 for like SEO like generation and all that, but I've never 682 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,920 understood that. Like what do you mean by I need 683 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:20,160 to give you a copy for this? Like for me, because I've come 684 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,440 from like pure like just writing background or lighting something 685 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,720 when it was stuck for me and now it's unstuck and I want to get 686 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:31,600 it out of my system for myself and maybe for somebody else as 687 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,200 well. It's just a flow of things from 688 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,960 how like what is the problem? Like how am I solving it? 689 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,720 And like, why did I even do this? 690 00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:44,400 And like what did I, what different ways I tried to do 691 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,480 that? And I've connected to similar 692 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,600 writing as well. I've never connected to a copy 693 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:54,720 like but yeah, it depends. Like it's again what you're 694 00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:57,880 trying to achieve but but I personally have found found it 695 00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,600 very difficult to connect to a copy. 696 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,120 Yeah, I've never thought of the word copy, that it could also 697 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,760 mean like it's a copy of what someone else already wrote, 698 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,040 basically that it's a placeholder for something. 699 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I wonder if those two are 700 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,920 related. I mean, I, I like what AI is 701 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,800 bringing us. I also see that there's some 702 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,960 downtime or, or downsides for sure. 703 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,360 Like the human to human interactions are now sometimes 704 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,000 replaced by human to AI interactions. 705 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,520 And that makes me a bit more fearful. 706 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,280 We already kind of in this tech field have this stigma from an 707 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,280 outside perspective that is just people typing and typing away. 708 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,760 And now with with an AI buddy, it's like typing, typing away 709 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,320 and you have an AI buddy. Yeah, I feel like empathy is 710 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,880 going to be a bigger topic going forward, that people still need 711 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,440 to relate to each other, understand each other, have the 712 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,080 patience to listen to each other. 713 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,720 And AI might be taking away from that. 714 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,040 Definitely. And that's where like a like for 715 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,360 developer at Wacosphere, there's the whole domain of developer 716 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:02,760 relations. Empathy is a very big, very big 717 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,680 part of our role to not assume that somebody knows something 718 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,880 about your domain or technology or tool and to reach the 719 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:19,080 developer where they are as long as like it makes sense for the 720 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,680 business as well. Like, of course, you won't go 721 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:26,360 completely to completely from A-Z, but to always have empathy 722 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:31,080 about not assuming what they might know or what they might 723 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,520 not know. And this is something that 724 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,360 should be reflected again in like your documentation or like 725 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,720 anything. You have to start from a 726 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:46,000 subjective 0 and then go to like 1000 when you're trying to like 727 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,840 explain how your tool works. And I still like that. 728 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,200 Like I still like when documentation has like these 729 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,800 markers and pointers, like click that arrow, click that button 730 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,280 and like, because even though like I'm a tech person, when I'm 731 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:06,360 building IKEA, I want to just see images like I want to see. 732 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,760 And it's so well, like IKEA documentation is so good. 733 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,640 Like they will match the same thoughts of like those screws 734 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,840 even on their small images. And I use that like imagine if 735 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,800 like the the the people that I get like no, you need to be able 736 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,760 to like just figure that out and like why? 737 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,880 Why don't you know that Seriously doing? 738 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,920 Trial and error like figure it. Out and then we would have 739 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,800 broken furniture. So I think we we, we are very 740 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,760 fortunate that we are in this industry where we can break 741 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,080 things and look at it scientifically, mathematically 742 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,880 and technically. But just assuming that everyone 743 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,320 should be able to do that is really not the way to, like, go 744 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,160 forward. I feel if we still want to be in 745 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,320 a mixed community of different people. 746 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,080 Yeah. Or else everyone's going to just 747 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,480 like, put us out and be like, you just sit with each other. 748 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,840 Don't talk. To us, yeah. 749 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,240 In the end, like we're building for humans, we're building for 750 00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:04,800 people, and we're doing that in so many industries. 751 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,160 So the patience and empathy to understand each other, like 752 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,720 finding each other as humans, that's going to be the, I think 753 00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:14,120 the skill that's going to be most valuable going forward. 754 00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:18,520 Absolutely. And I think I do feel like if 755 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,240 you're talking about purely like business perspective as well, 756 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,600 there's going to be an I do feel like I see a niche coming up of 757 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:33,160 human interactions now where no matter what, we're no matter 758 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,400 what AI is helping us do. Like I see like these AI cooking 759 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,320 robots, which is great for a family that does not have time 760 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,640 or like they both of them are busy, they have kids and like, 761 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,880 they still need food And like, they don't want to have like a 762 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,560 restaurant food or like crappy meals. 763 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:49,920 They want to have good homemade food. 764 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,360 And a robot could be a really interesting tool there. 765 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,680 But we when we're talking about like a special moment, like it's 766 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,600 your, your kids first birthday or it's your, it's your 10th 767 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,040 anniversary or something. And you want to go out of your 768 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,560 way. What would you want? 769 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,560 Like would you want a meal prepared by a rhubarb? 770 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:14,560 Or would you want to go to that Noma chef and like that one 771 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,480 restaurant that you've been like dying to go and like have that 772 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,000 meal from that person's like me specifically from that person. 773 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:29,040 And I think that's like physical experiences are going to get 774 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:34,800 more and more expensive, I feel. And I'm scared will access to 775 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:40,280 them also get reduced for overall population? 776 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:46,080 And will it be like more access to people who just have more 777 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:47,200 money? Maybe, I don't know. 778 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,280 Yeah, I really don't know. I, I just hope it doesn't go 779 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,160 away. Like the thing, the cooking 780 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,240 example, I enjoy cooking, but then I also have moments indeed 781 00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:01,280 where there's not enough time and I order or, and the joy of 782 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,720 creating something, especially if you have a partner at home or 783 00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:06,280 if you have kids like it, it should still be there. 784 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,760 So I hope that never goes away, that you always have the option, 785 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:16,440 because I like having options. Yeah, and I do sometimes feel 786 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,480 that way though, like if this meal would have been cooked, 787 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,760 would I like just ship that thing more like? 788 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,440 And I try to tap myself out like there's only so much I can do. 789 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,840 Yes, there are different people, like who everyone has their 790 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,360 priorities. And if a building is their your 791 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,720 only priority where you just like wake up and you build and 792 00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:39,000 like that's it. Great. 793 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,880 Like, I think they are the kind of people due to which we have, 794 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:46,360 like, EVs and like, there are some people who are making it 795 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,360 their life's mission to just build things. 796 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,400 And I know there's this kind of sacrifices. 797 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,200 They're doing it for it. But is it the right thing for 798 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:55,600 me? Like, it's something that I need 799 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,480 to choose. Decide if yes and then go, go 800 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,640 for it. But if not, then I shouldn't 801 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,120 have to, like, beat myself up to it. 802 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,520 Like, no, like, let me just eat that food. 803 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,040 Like, let me just take that take away because I should be 804 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,360 building right now and not cooking a nice meal for myself. 805 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,000 Yeah. Yeah, I get that. 806 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,280 I've really enjoyed this conversation, Platin. 807 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,000 This was a lot of fun. Same. 808 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,240 Yeah. It's really good to, like, just 809 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,720 tap out of the typical daily conversations about like, oh, 810 00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:26,960 what did you make? What did you build? 811 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,560 What did you generate? But more about like, how is this 812 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,040 affecting us as, like, individuals and developers? 813 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,440 Like, we take so much pride in calling ourselves, like, 814 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,320 builders and developers, but I hope we're building ourselves to 815 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,280 be good people as well along with this. 816 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,400 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, if you see 817 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,320 yourself as something that is also software and evolves, then, 818 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,840 I mean, reflecting and thinking about things like these and 819 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,320 having conversations similarly are necessary, I think. 820 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,200 So, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on 821 00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,400 and sharing. And we'll we'll round off here. 822 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,000 If you're still here, leave us a like. 823 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,920 Let us know in the comments section what you thought of this 824 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:04,800 episode and we'll see you on the next one.