Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akil and if
you're interested in coaching and leadership on all levels,
one-on-one team aspects as well as organizational culture, this
episode is for you. Joining me today is Monica Deval
from Unique Sources and she has taught me so much about personal
leadership, me and my colleagues actually, So this was an honor
and a real blast. Enjoy.
One of the things I know about you and you also mentioned to
me, is that your passion really lies in making people happy
again and eager to go back to work or to go to work or like,
having to go to work with like a spring in your step.
Yeah, why has that always been a thing?
Or where did you find that passion?
Back to Yeah. Waking up in the morning.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's, it's, I
don't know where it originates from, but it it has been there
from the start. When I started my own business,
I really thought, you know, I want to make the fit between,
you know, the organization and people.
So it really needs to fit together.
And you see that when it doesn't fit, you see people frustrated
and angry and sad and when there's a good fit and people
are becoming the best of themselves and they are
contributing. And so also the psychological
contract between the organization and the person
works out really well. And that's, I find it sad when
people are in organizations getting paid, you know, what a
month. And they are, they are not,
They're unhappy. They're like, OK, do something
that makes you happy, but also that is a fitting for your
competencies or your ambitions or that's also don't you do
something just because you need to do it.
There's there's enough of that. What holds people back?
Usually what you've seen. Hold back in what?
As in you probably. Holding back to make a step,
another step. Yeah, to make that step and to
actually, let's say, the situation to themselves or to
remove themselves from that situation and that organization.
It it depends very much also on on phases in life.
And so younger people find it very difficult to make a step
because they just made a couple of commitments, you know house
relationship, sometimes kids. So they're in this situation
where, OK, hold on, if I move now or if I do another head, if
I take undertake another, if I make another choice or I start
an enterprise, Oregon, whatever, that's uncertainty.
So that's might endanger all the other things that I have now in
life and with more experience. So 4050 there is well, I've done
it. I know what I can do.
So why should I make that change?
It's not about financial insecurity or things like that
or endangering things, but it's more like, OK, if I do this, do
I really want it? And they find it more difficult
than to find out what they are good at or what their real
ambitions are. And sometimes they really go
back to have with a A40 plus or so.
Then I go back to with them to the discussions.
What, what were you? What were your ambitions when
you were eight years old or 10 years?
Because that's that's very much related to the original dream.
That deep? Yeah.
That deep. Really.
Yeah. I wouldn't expect that actually.
Well, what did you want to become when you were eight?
I I talked about this recently actually, because you know my
Ice Breakers in my team. I said I wanted to be a chef as
well as a fireman. OK, I have no clue why that was.
But I. Wanted to find, well, you know
there's there's being in the lead and control there.
Yeah. Yeah.
Or and also creative creativity is in in being a chef.
Yeah. And the the control is in and
also, you know helping could be a layer in it.
So there's values in those first dreams and ambitions.
Yeah. So this is what I would like and
then I think I always said you know when I was in first grade I
wanted to be a teacher of first grade and 2nd grade.
I want to be teacher of the 2nd grade and and then at a certain
point it changed into I want to work with very difficult
children and have you know special learning codes or had a
or or have have what what we call now neurodivergent.
So and I I turn, I I work with neurodivergent people.
Yeah exactly. They're they're sort of kids
still. That makes sense.
There's an essence in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean when you when you would ask me still now or even back
then, I don't really know what I first of all, I'm an expert in.
Like people label you an expert, but I don't really feel like an
expert. Maybe that's a little bit of an
imposter or what my vision is or really where I want to move
towards. That's still like I have a lot
of options and I I am very curious innately as a person and
I'm having a lot of fun exploring these options, but I
still don't know which one is like the end end goal and also
the word of an end station or an end goal is like a huge.
Hurdle, yeah, yeah. And don't go to the end thing
because I think people can be, can become many different things
in their life. So there's not one career or one
thing that you you're becoming. People will never say I want to
become only a dad or a mum or no kids at all because that's one
of the things that that will happen in life.
It's one of the roles but you will not specify that
specifically in as a dream and not many people do that.
So, but it's one of the things that will happen in in in your
life. Yeah, absolutely.
I was thinking back to because you and I have had many
one-on-one conversations and I know many people that you also
have conversations with. And they told me that there's
something in you and the way you do one-on-one coaching where you
just peel the onion and you get to the essence in the right way
where they tell a story and they say, and you say, no, no, let's
go back and zoom in on specifically this bit.
And then all of a sudden people realize that I was talking about
something and I didn't know I wanted to talk about this.
But then all of a sudden we're talking about this.
And I'm happy we did. Yeah.
How do you do that? Because that, for me is
extraordinary. How do I do that?
Maybe. Maybe that's one of the things
that was that I was gifted with or that that I'm, I have a
talent in because I think I had that already very early in life.
Yeah, I remember it going back. One of the things my mother said
to me, one of the moves that we made and the people, the movers
were in front of the house and they started talking to me about
their lives. And I was I think 12 something,
13 maybe. And she said, what did you say
to them? I said nothing.
I just asked questions. So it's, I don't know, it's a
sort of curiosity that is there. I want to, yeah, peel the onion.
Or maybe, maybe make people cry. Yeah, all the time.
Yeah. No, it's really to get to a
deeper layer. Had to deep dive because all the
superficial stuff. Oh, and it might be related also
to 3rd culture kids. That's a it's mentioned as a
characteristic of third culture kids and kids that grew up as a
result of the the work of the parents.
Somewhere abroad between 0 and 18 those kids go you don't have
time to to fool around and and have all the other things to
discuss. You go straight to OK, we have
we meet each other now, so now we will talk about it.
So and about this and this is important and that's important.
So that's part of that might have influenced it.
Yeah, I see myself as someone that would really enjoy having
those conversations. But for me there's a big scare
in that. Like for me it's just curiosity,
and that's mainly the driver. I don't have the education to
then guide people or make people realize what they should realize
to take control of either the. Situation the the the
competence. I don't know if it's the
competence, but it is still like it's a person, like it's a
one-on-one thing. What if my guidance or my advice
or my perspectives are wrong or are incorrect in that way?
I think that's mainly the thing that withholds me from doing
those. Somebody's talking into your.
Oh yeah, no. And it's me.
I know. Yeah, yeah.
Talking. Saying don't, don't.
Yeah, well, try, try, try. Yeah, go is.
That how you started as well, yeah.
Go try because people will appreciate that you ask about
them, that you're curious about them.
So there's not a lot of wrong steps that you can take.
And you're not immediately asked for guidance.
So you don't have to provide guidance, but you can say, well,
let's explore this together. So that's what you basically do.
Yeah. Is that like the essence of
one-on-one coaching? Yeah, you explore together and
yeah and and not only in one-on-one coaching but also
organizational development. At a certain point you recognise
patterns, but I'm sure you have that in your work as well.
You recognise patterns. You recognise patterns in
teamwork, but you recognise patterns in the coding as well.
That you go like hold on this, this should.
And then you have a you look at it and you see that it's wrong
or that something is should be should be corrected or something
we. Call it a smell in code.
Yeah, well, there you go. And it's a smell.
OK. So something's off.
Something's off. Yeah.
And that's in in your in dealing with people, same thing.
Something's off. And you're like, hmm, there is
either a tone or or how people look or how they phrase it, or
there's indications of that very micro sometimes.
You something you mentioned triggered me and I had a
conversation with Rustom. Actually, was the previous
episode and we talked about, you mentioned that friction between
a person and an organization. Yeah.
And I'm wondering what you've seen where it affects teams
because Rustom shared a story where it really affected the
team he was in. When one person had like, more
on a personal level things going on.
Yeah. And then the team collaboration
just really took a downfall because of that.
Yeah. Is that like common in what
you've seen? Well that's that is part of and
you know this have we shared that I I think in systems has so
that systems are connected to teams are also connected to open
social systems. So if there's there's something
happening in that system, it will affect the balance has
systems look for homeostasis always for balance in the
system. So if you look at that and you
think I-11 team member is experiencing something either
from the organization or from the private side, it will create
unbalance. So that's something that that is
an it's a natural process and then all the elements are also
connected. So you need to look at and the
connections and what is happening.
So it's always important to know how people feel are how they're
taking care of their their bodies and their vitality, their
mental state. That's all connected.
Yeah. And I I know that let's say from
theory and in practice I've been in teams where this just I feel
like no time for that because we're working towards a goal and
headlines are there And like the whole people aspect sometimes
within teams just gets, I mean pushed as as far back as you
can. And then I feel that that I
don't really know my colleagues and there are conversations
where I'm like, OK, can I really trust them or do I need to do it
myself? Like that level of trust is just
not there then. And I do notice the consequences
of time is like the most crucial factor there.
Yeah. And then they have when things
go sour in teams like that and you know there's this model of
Lensioni, you know that says basic layer is first trust.
So that's the most important thing and you, you let people
score on trust. What is the trust now?
And there's a couple of indications for that if how
people share things. But it's also had the the
performance and the results and the goal orientation is
something that comes later because you cannot do that when
there is no trust. So even even in stages of teams
performing comes after the the the the forming storming,
norming and then there's performing people say oh but now
there's a result and we go impossible.
There is a couple of yeah. Who are you and are we is this
going to be a good team and and all these devalue systems that
you carry from with very, very different cultural backgrounds
even that's what you bring to the table.
Yeah, so. Are there methods or practices
that you've used to build trust, let's say, on a faster basis?
Because most of the teams I go in, it kind of trickles.
And trust comes with time. Yeah.
And the more time we have, the more we have different
scenarios, different conversations.
And because of that, we grow towards each other and we trust
each other. Yeah.
But there's no time and attention to build trust.
That's in a faster way in the teams I've been in.
No, there is there is like like the in the Leading the way
program there is this on purpose.
There is two things on the first day that is business principles
which you discuss as a group on what is really important and how
do you translate that into behaviour.
And the other thing is the Where I'm from poem here from George
Ella Lyon. She developed that as a way of
you know, opening up in a in a yeah, rather quick way, in a
different way to get to know each other.
And and yes it can go. It can become emotional and
people you know decide what they want to share and how they want
to share it. They they decide themselves but
it's a way to open up and that builds trust.
So opening up and and that's you heard me say that as well and
this behaviour breeds behaviour. If I start sharing things from
my life with others it will behavior breeds behavior.
So it will invite the other also to share something from their
personal life. So and I'm not saying that you
know because I mentioned my mother, you mentioned your
mother but it it could be linked the earlier conversation because
it it resonates and you go like oh that's right.
Yay. Yeah.
So that's part of what what happens.
Yeah, I'll, I'll put that because I think we have a PDF
that you sent. I'll put that in the show notes
and I think I will always remember that session.
And if I come to an organization where, let's say, I feel like,
oh, there's a lot of friction or we don't really know each other,
that is definitely one of the methods I'll pull out of my hat,
Yeah, to see if we can build trust.
And then I have a fair warning that because because it can get
really emotional and you have to have a very good moderator or
facilitator to facilitate that session.
Someone who knows about what happens when people go into a
traumatic experience again or when when things happen that
really shake up the group that you do, you know how to hold
this in a safe space. Because that's part of.
Yeah, what can happen is, and if you do that, you know, just
like, Oh well, you know we'll do the where I'm from and you and
people start sharing their you know, shitty life, shitty and
first part of their life when they grew up.
Then it's it's difficult. You really have to do that.
What I said be be open and transparent, but handle with
care. That's respect needs to be very
and you need to be very respectful in these things.
Have you been in a situation without obviously naming the
details, but where it went in a direction you didn't expect
because of that? Let's say facilitation that
wasn't there as much as it should be.
Well, The thing is, I'm the facilitator, so that when I'm
present, that usually doesn't happen.
But I I have experiences where people said, OK, I'm not ready
to share it at this moment. OK.
And then that's and then it's for me also it's a lesson and
stop because it's not an obligation to share, it's an
invitation. So if people say no and I I not
now they're good, then I know also that's an indication for
more trauma or that people have something to say but not that
that particular moment. So yeah.
On the level of one-on-one conversations, let's say I'm a
coach. I would know where to start
because I talk to people on a one-on-one basis.
Also, when I'm aligning teams, I know which teams like I have to
start with or which teams I would go to.
But when it comes to helping an organization, I wouldn't have a
clue where to start because there's so many people there and
I can start with the bottom and have my ear to the ground, let's
say, and see what's going on. Or I can start more high over
and see what the challenges are and see how they trickle down.
When you are let's say, tasked to help organisations, when a
certain change happens or when a new leadership team is there,
how do you start typically? First, there's the invitation to
be in. So there's it's not that I do I
look at organizations say, oh, they have a new CEO or there's a
new CEO coming or now I need to step in has some people do that,
some consultants. I don't do that.
And I'm just you know I'm already connected somehow to the
organization or people in the organization and they ask me in
and they say we would like to work with you or could you
explore with us. As we discussed a little bit
before is what you see is many organizations are are they will
look or become more like the personality of the person who is
leading it. And so narcissistic leadership
will lead to an organization that has within their culture
elements that you think that's a little bit toxic or that's not
helping, or people that are really empathetic, the alpha
males that have a lot of empathy.
As Franz Duvall research in his Ted Talk dance, they create
empathy within their organisations and they have
their ear to the ground themselves.
So then talking about change is a different thing.
And so like I'm working now with the chemical factory.
They have, they're on a site with their leadership team and
they have had a rough period with a leadership with
leadership that was not effective, that was intimidating
and that was so people old leadership left and there's new
leadership in and now one of the older experienced one that was
there before stepped back in on on the position again.
And they are reforming the whole organization and saying, OK, now
we need to have our strategy back in back into order.
We need to have our structure back into order.
But also our staff, as many organizations, they're
struggling with staff to find people.
So who do we want and how do we commit them to our
organizational values? So that's and then we take these
things step by step and of course people in their own
positions and with their own responsibilities.
Yeah, I understand that leadership, let's say, and
behaviour trickles down. And if you have leadership with
certain amounts of behaviour or or certain types of behaviour,
it trickles down as well. But then theoretically the
bigger the organization, would it actually trickle down all the
way to the ground when you're talking about bigger
organizations? Yeah.
Well, you see it then that it's very, it's usually
departmentalized. So you see the islands that look
like they're like the kingdoms and they have their own cultures
or they have their own ways that look more like their leadership
which is regional or which is. So it's for the for the the
global organizations, it is a challenge to really have the
values and it's also there's a contradiction there because the
organizational, I researched that with one one of the studies
that I live with the MBA that what is more what is more
important, what is in the end decisive organizational culture
or national culture. National cultures are decisive.
So that's at least what I found with American headquarters and
then European subsidiaries. So the American headquarters had
certain values common common bond codes, we are honest with
each other for example. And then taking that to the
Netherlands or France or Germany in this case, we found that in
the Netherlands they say we're honest with each other.
Are you serious? Are we going to write, Do I need
to sign this? Is it written down?
I'm not going to sit and you know that I'm not going to do
that. So they they refused because
they said honesty is something that you you are or you're not.
It's not something that you write on a piece of paper and
that you hang on a wall. And so in this case US culture
said yeah, but you hang it on your wall and this is what we
live. Same thing with for example, it
made me laugh with the with the French because no alcohol or
being that had the the local culture is allowing to talk with
food and drinks including alcohol during working time.
But then the IBM office at that time had two restaurants in in
France. One was at one outside of the
street and one was the other side of the street.
This was local French alcohol and this was a global this was
no alcohol. So local culture really decides
a lot of what happens with the organizational culture globally.
And if you if you know this, then you can actually, you know,
tweak that and say OK, this, this happens here, we need this,
we need this. But you cannot say, oh, the
Indians and the Polish and the Dutch and the all are the same
and they should work the same way.
Yeah, doesn't happen. Doesn't happen, no.
But do you think that's a good thing, That localized culture,
let's say Trump's organizational culture?
Well, I think it's a fact. It's more, you know it, it's
good or bad, it happens. So you have to deal with it.
In that way. Yeah, yeah.
If there's, yeah, if we don't have enough, if the if it's
affecting the Netherlands that we are, if we don't take care of
our the water management, then we will be flooded in 30 years.
That's a fact. You know, so that's, you know,
take care of it, that's it's not good or bad, but you have to do
something about it. Can you also have that, let's
say more so localized culture within the same region then
let's say within NL? If we have an organization that
has different branches and provinces, do you there then
also see localized cultures trumping what is happening on
organization? Oh yeah, but then, but then
where? Where do you draw the line?
Like or do you even need to draw?
The line well you you will connect on have functional
culture. OK.
A functional culture is also happen.
So it connects. If you have IT people they will
say OK, you know, you know IT and there is a certain language
that we speak, you all go to the Gartner conference or whatever
and then there's a certain we understand these things that
that's it's part of our that's it's a part of our skills, our
our knowledge etcetera. So there's a language we
understand and that helps. So there's always a connection.
Hey, if you, if you are part of a certain organization, you say,
ah, within our organization we do things a certain way and that
might be locally different, but it's still connecting.
And so it's it's it's an internal paradox a bit.
Interesting. Also, when I talk about then I
said diverse organizations or diverse cultures within a
certain country and now even within this organization, we
want more diversity because diversity breeds innovation and
more creative ideas, more creative outcomes let's say.
But then do people bring that localized culture, like from a
personal value standpoint, I do think they bring that with them.
So then you have this not homogeneous culture, but the
opposite that starts to happen on a localized basis.
Yeah, So it and it's it's it's an interesting perspective.
When people say oh diversity, you need to be able to see
diversity on the outside. Skin color or gender or or age.
I'm not sure because I can have a group of 10 white men and they
can have very different backgrounds, they can have very
different values, they can have very different ways of thinking.
So they will be heterogeneous in in other respects, in other
aspects. I would encourage them however,
to to to make sure that they include other perspectives also
in gender and age and the cultural backgrounds, because
that will make the diversity bigger.
They were in large and that's that's part of research as well.
Diverse teams, they perform better.
There's one condition under good leadership.
That's the asterisk, yeah. That's that's because if that's
not there and people do not understand what is actually
happening in a diverse team, yeah, then you can have a lovely
diverse team and it will not perform.
Interesting. I've also heard that like the
way you do hiring or for example, there's a referral
bonus. If that's in place you get more
homogeneous culture because people refer people that are
like them because probably also they think decision making
happens faster. Yeah, it's a way of and I have
been in homogeneous teams. This is your making can go
faster because we understand each other.
We talk the same language, but then yeah, I have felt that at
some point we just miss things. You miss out on opportunities
that that you, that somebody else would have brought to your
attention, but they're not there.
Exactly. Then then what?
Yeah. Going back to then culture, and
especially in that heterogeneous environment, can you then still
align on let's say functional values When it comes to your
culture, what you stand for, What the what the factors are
that connect us within an organization?
Yeah, yeah, that's the and that that goes to the business
principles parts huh. So and that can be very
practical as well and so it it can be about times have that you
work it can be about the way of working how you work but also
hair cleaning up the kitchen or what that's had your hair in the
in the building. It's not about the kitchen at
home but it's making sure that your workplaces are in a certain
order or that's that's also very and that can be very visual as a
culture. How you have a also very visual
culture within Sybia with a certain height.
I received last week the last the 1st edition of or the new
notebook right. And there's a chimpanzee on the
on the front and that's part of your with the glasses and and
and earphones and that that's part of your marketing and
that's the visual marketing that's part of your oh that but
we and there might be Sybians that say you don't like this you
know again but it's recognized as this is this is part of what
we do or how we do things. This is the, this is the colour,
this is etcetera. What I'm interested most in is
that how do you get alignment, because you also mentioned let's
say from the US example, If we say we need to be honest with
each other, that doesn't need to be written more so in a Dutch
culture. In that way, when you have a
heterogeneous culture, how do you find alignment in the values
that bind us? That was funny in this case with
taking me back to that research it's that the Dutch were were
allowed then in the end in two of the American organizations to
that had the same code of conduct line to say to actually
sign it for we have seen it. So not I I agree because that's
the original one, but I have seen this and they were also
allowed to put it in the drawer. OK.
Not to show it, you know, and do do the thing to you know make it
more explicit. So that was funny to see how it
was solved in a way to say, OK, you know, fine, we, we
understand it's different and but we would like to to know
that you have seen it and the German subsidiary for example,
there the alignment was as the the person, the manager of 100
people would sign for all of his or her people.
OK, that they have seen it because I have seen it, they
have seen it. That was interesting too.
I. Thought and if somebody then is
not honest or is not working according to the code of
conduct, then then you will leave as well.
Or what happens. So that's.
It was fascinating, me and my 100 people.
Yeah, me and all hundred we'll go.
Exactly. OK, anyways, yeah, that was
interesting. Interesting.
So I mean, I understand how they resolved it, but if there were,
let's say in the Dutch culture, if there was also a lot of
people that migrated from America, would things have gone
the same way because that those are personal values, Maybe they
would have wanted that up the wall as well.
Yeah, that's what I'm struggling with in in that we have more
diverse teams with more. Oh, you get you.
You get more discussion about it because you know what?
You know, why are you not doing this?
So yeah, people will talk to each other.
Yeah. I worked with another IT company
in the Netherlands and they had a big struggle with the
international, some of the international workers that were
there because the Dutch managers would say how they don't speak
up, they So there's already we, us and them.
Yeah, and there is this. They don't speak up, which
isn't. Why would anyone needs to speak
up? Because that's a Dutch value.
Hey, tell me what you think we ask our kids.
Three years old, you know, what do you think other cultures find
that ridiculous? You're never going to ask a
three-year old what do you think?
Or she thinks it's ridiculous because there's still you need
to tell kids what they need to think.
So that's a different. Yeah.
And so in this case there was, this had diversity, but it there
it showed the the values and the bias that was there and that was
creating friction because people and the managers would expect,
Oh well, you you will tell me what you think.
Well, maybe Chinese culture, Indian culture.
No, no, you will not so. But did they realize that and
eventually changed to accommodate for that?
Some of them and some of them say no, they're here, so.
You they have to act like this. You're in Rome so act like well
that's that might not be the the the the the skill or the
competence of people are not just their their cultural layer
really blocks them from doing that and for the Dutch there is
also cultural layer that can block them.
So that's it's not an easy no fix there.
Oh, exactly. And then especially when you
talk about, let's say, going to work and being happy, like
looking forward to that day, if you have a team where that is
the culture and you just don't fit in, I can really see where
that's challenging. And the question for me is like,
does the person need to change? Does the team need to change?
It's probably somewhere in the middle there.
If the if the fit. If the fit is, it's really a
misfit, yeah. And then and I see people being
hugely unhappy because, you know, there's this whole team
around me that doesn't understand me and, you know,
please find another spot. There's many other places and
people you can be happy. Oh, and on the other hand, there
is this option that you tell people.
Well, maybe you're just. What's the English expression?
The Laos in the Pels you're the. Like the odd one out.
Is that what you? Mean odd one out, but the louse
in the bells is really the also the person who will trigger the
other behaviour and who will make a change because they are
behaving differently. Like a bad apple.
No it's not the bad apple. It's actually the the good apple
that that says you know or the good pair have within the basket
of apples and saying you know but you know there's there's
this is really good. Yeah, I'm tasteful and I'm and I
look good. I look different, but I look
good. So there's another thing there,
huh? Interesting.
Yeah, Yeah. I'm wondering then.
We need more diversity, we need more pairs and we need plums and
whatever. Yeah, for me it figured a
thought in that I don't think there's a right and a wrong
right. If you find yourself in an
environment and it's just different and it's not a good
fit, does that mean then the environment is right or wrong?
It's not that black and white? I feel like no, it's not black
because that's what that that works for them.
Probably it works for the majority of people there, and
then it might not be a right fit.
Although there are environments that, as I said, have with
narcissistic leadership or with really toxic behaviour, where I
sometimes also come in in teams that have conflict, where it has
been there for years and years. You think this has been going on
and people are not active bystanders and saying something
about the behaviour but allowing other people to make wrong jokes
or show racism or sexism or and then think, but that was a joke.
No, no, no, no. So that's and then it's really
toxic and then you have to really, you know, dig deeper to
make sure that this all this super high intensity is out.
Yeah, What? What did you do then?
Because you said you you have come across situations like
that. And I feel like that's an uphill
battle to start with, let's say, and it can be exciting to try
and fix that. But yeah, I mean, if no one
wants to listen to that, it might not be fixable either.
It's The thing is people really want because they have felt it
already for years that something is wrong.
And so a conflict that I mention often I felt in in the beginning
of my career people had been in a conflict for more than 10
years. Some people had been writing
Diaries about that. For all these, you know, writing
all these horrible stuff down, they said do you want to read
the Diaries? They said no and please no.
But how? How is it possible that you were
not able to even find each other to talk about this.
And so there is this first base of basic rules.
Listen to each other and summarize what the other person
has said is it is this what this other person meant and and and
try to stay away from the impact and look at the intentions.
That's that's a different thing. And some things can be helped
and you know sorted out and some things not and you just have to
say you know this is this is not going to work.
When we're talking about specifically that situation
where you tried and probably tried and tried and eventually
realized this is just not gonna work, what did that do to you?
Because I feel like looking at myself, I I would try and it's
really hard to give up, like that's the person I am.
But at some point, like if everything goes against also
your personal values, it's also just not not a good fit.
Yeah. Well, the thing, the thing that
I have, I have learned over the years is, is really to say it's
a problem of the client. It's not my problem.
So if some of them really want to keep that problem and, you
know, keep it, keep it alive and feed it even then that's their
problem. And then, you know, I will step
back and say, you know, I don't think you really want to work on
this. So it's, it's up to you and it's
your thing. So go ahead.
You know, I don't know. If you want to run into a wall.
Go ahead. Yeah.
And it's you will. You will probably hit your head.
That's what I think. But you know, you might not.
I don't know. That sounds like a mindset that
I mean, I I have adopted and I'm trying to adopt because a lot of
organizations come with a problem and all of a sudden make
you feel like it's your problem. Yeah, yeah.
And probably. Yeah, it's really difficult to
to say. Oh, no, no, no.
This is this is not my monkeys on my shoulder.
No, no, no, no, it's yours. Exactly.
Yeah, And especially if you're, let's say, maybe earlier in
career and you want to do a lot of stuff, yeah, you will do a
lot of stuff because of that. It's my take.
Yeah, it's my responsibility and I'll take care of it, yeah.
To a point where your plate is just full of work.
But as a consultant, also a organizational development or
run on one coaching, I'm I'm not you.
I am not that organization. I am.
So I am here and I can look at it.
I have a different perspective. I can offer that and we can
talk, we can walk the the same route.
But at the end you have to do your actions and I have to do
mine. So there's and I.
That's what I've learned. Because in the beginning that I
would would be really like what, Even worry about this one person
in a group that was really unhappy after this training or
whatever. I think, like, what could I have
done differently? And I think maybe there was
something else that had nothing to do with the train or nothing
to do with the whole project. But you know, this is a person
who is unhappy with life. I don't know.
Yeah, I was thinking of, especially with organizational
change, a lot of the things that you do will take, let's say, a
long, long time before they see the fruits of that labour.
Specifically, Yeah, are you there for that full duration of
the time to see the fruits of your labour?
Because I also feel like you put the right things in place and
then that's the time to leave as well.
Yeah, yeah. Is that usually how it goes?
Yeah, well, not usually. So I had a couple of clients
that I worked with for six to eight years and and you know we
we went together a long way and sometimes a couple of years and
then you know they ask me back, they say, well you need to see
what has happened. OK.
So that's good. And that's fun.
That's fun. Or sometimes they go, We need
you again, Sir. It's going sour, so that's also
good. But I am also a fan of allowing
people to do it themselves. I don't.
I'm not the genius from outside in.
I will solve everything. Yes, I can offer a different
perspective. I can ask a nasty questions that
sometimes inside people cannot ask or the show the curiosity
for other things. But sometimes it's it's just,
you know, you can do this. And then unveiling the the
potential that people have already within their
organization. And that's fun too, because then
people discover like, hey, we can do this good.
Yeah, I can see that. That's a lot of fun, yeah.
Have you also had, let's say, an ask where people ask for your
help or ask for your guidance and then you decided, well, this
is not, this is not where I can help, or this is not what I can
help with, or it's just not a good fit?
Well, financial management. That's.
That's the. That's the one.
I draw the line again. No, don't let me look at budgets
and. Statistics again, no.
No, no, no. It's it's not my for Forte.
Yeah it's I've learned it that the MBAs and the and yes if I
force myself into but it cost me a lot of energy I go like no
that's not a thing. So I'm really not about the
numbers but I'm and about the results that will come will show
in the numbers. But that's a different thing it
was it's about the people and making them tick and making them
to. Yeah.
To get up and go to work and think like, hey good.
You know it's another day we can do it again.
That's. Yeah.
One thing I had also recently, I did AQ and a episode and one of
the questions was more so about time management and especially
when I'm talking to you and you like having one-on-one
conversations, team dynamics as well as organizational culture,
you can do all of that and probably more, but how do you
manage your time? Are you very, very well aware of
what's on your plate and if something new fits in, or how do
you do that? That's interesting.
Yeah, Well, it it's interesting because I tend to say yes to to
almost everything. And so like Oh yeah, nice, good.
And I'm getting a lot better with you know double bookings or
things like that that could happen it.
But it happened more in the past that that people were like, oh,
there is a group waiting here and oh shoot that I did that,
but I'm really from end and end so and I think my mind also I
have a hyperactive mind, so it allows me to go in many
different directions. So that's really good.
I think that's really good and it also allows me to listen to
more of what is needed. So and sometimes, sometimes I
just decide to say, well no, not now there was.
It's funny because recently I was asked for half day sessions,
online sessions and a lot a lot of teams and and thought the pro
of that, it allows me to have my one-on-one coaching or
development time on the other half of the day.
It will block me of course from having two day training or two
day team building or whatever, leadership programs, three day
leadership programs somewhere else.
So that's a that's a pro and con.
So and then I decide usually on what is, what is in it for the
client, Can I really contribute and do they need me for that or
do they can they work with somebody else that's that's
basically the decisive factor or with whom I can work.
In this case, I will probably work with this in this company
because I like them. They're, they're young, they're
and they're they have been. They have innovative procedures
in their working and that's what I like.
Yeah, so. Integrate AI and that stuff, so
good do. You refer clients or people also
to other people often. Oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I have with my company.
I have like 20-25 people that I that are in my team.
Yeah unique sources professionals and they are all
over so and when something happens I can say ah well
Patricia in Miami or Kelly in Tulsa.
So there's a couple of Americans but Michael is Michael is in in
Germany. Henning is in Amsterdam.
So there is you know different people that are all over that I
can say Oh well you know you work with me Claire works with
China. So that good I.
Like that a lot. Yeah, that's nice.
So circling back to kind of the topic we sliced open and
contributing to people's happiness in going to work, I
don't know, maybe I should rephrase that like there's
always several avenues to go about that and especially in
one-on-one dynamic finding that out, we already touched on that.
That's a difficult one. Having that conversation and
truly listening and then finding out what the root cause is,
that's that's one way. Have you find any commonalities
in what usually is causing that conflict or friction in people?
Kind of, you know, not feeling at place or at ease or finding
happiness at work. Is there a common denominator
there? I don't think so.
It's not a common denominator, it's it's different for people.
Where when there is this moment of do I fit and and some people
will have that sometimes it's the external forces that that
could be for a head. So change changes around in a
company that will push that question up for a lot of people
that am I still in the right. So when people are invited to
apply for their own positions, again sometimes organizations do
that as a part of their change management or they reorganize
and restructure and people were like, Oh, well now did my
responsibility that that's this really change now or not and is
this still what I want. And so there's the the two
things. So change is an external
invitation or push towards this personal question and and
possible friction and some people are like, oh, change is
happening. Good.
Hey there's the 10% that will embrace any change.
They say ah good, change good, whatever we do we jump into the
sea. Fine, let's and there's 10%
there are issues. You had the the normal Gauss of
the curve there says there's also 10% that issues.
They say change no. And they will, you know, cling
to their chairs and say we don't like this.
And there is this in between group and depending on how how
much impact the change has, the more forceful the invitation is
or the push. Interesting.
Yeah. And what would you advise to the
people that, I mean, do not deal as well with change as let's say
the 10% you talked about? Talk with others.
Start and don't have the only the internal conversation.
Yeah. So because I have what I see
often is that people have this question and then they sort of
spiral into their own mind or heart and they get stuck and
they go like I don't know whom to talk to and I don't know is
he is he going to stay is she going to stay And then and and
they make it dependable on others and when they start
opening up sometimes people are really afraid to even mention it
to their to their leadership. So say if I'm thinking about
leaving, should I share that or not?
Or I got this real nice offer. Should I mention it?
And I'm I'm usually one of the people that tells me yes, open
it up, open up the conversation because it doesn't help.
And even your manager, they might say Oh no, or you might
say yes, please go. But then you know that's another
that then you have it on the table and you have it and you
can discuss it you. Don't have to worry about that.
Yeah, you don't have to worry. There's no I assuming, yeah
making the ass out of you and me.
So there's not this all this. I think that you think that.
I think that that's not helping. Yeah, I agree with that.
We're almost there with implantations.
OK, what can you think? But that's that.
'D be easy. That would make everything a lot
easier. Yeah.
We're not there yet, though. Yeah, this has been a lot of
fun, Monica, to learn from. Yeah.
Your way of working, as well as kind of the stories.
Yeah. And what you've seen.
Yeah. Is there any last thought that
you wanted to share before? Another hour.
Yeah. Well, yeah, it was interesting,
yeah. When you said there are there
things where you really surprise people with your thoughts
because they are contradicting or what and whatnot.
And it's it's I very often I say something on beliefs and then I
thought of this quote that I I used somewhere when God created
men. She was only joking.
So some people think like what is she saying?
No is that that might be you know is that it's still all
right to say. But I I think it it turns
perspective. It's like what what was their
first? Were their goddesses first or
gods or and what do you think? Then what is, what is, what does
it do to your values? When you hear someone say that
it's. And that's what I like.
When people yeah, their Dutch word is Ondenko.
When they use this, there's a way of reversing or turning
things around and looking from a different perspective.
I wish that for everybody. I noticed that like in your
language that one of the first interactions we had, you
mentioned something and I was like, that's interesting and
that's different. Thank you and I always remember
that. Thank you.
This was a lot of fun and I'm
going to round it off. If you're interested in Monica,
her socials will be in the description below.
Check her out, let her know you came from our show.
And with that being said, thank you for listening.
We'll see you on the next.