1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,240 The question I receive most nowadays is how do you stay 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,840 relevant within tech, especially since tooling and AI keeps 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,760 evolving. Next to that, it's also how to 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,840 get a promotion or negotiate a higher salary. 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,760 And that's exactly what we talk about. 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,240 In essence, you need to take control over your career. 7 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,640 You work 13% of your total lifespan, which is a lot. 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,720 And joining me today, he has over 25 years of experience in 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,880 this industry, is Iskan Gungu, currently fractional CTO and 10 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,800 also working on his own startup. It was a real blast, so enjoy. 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,720 I put up a poll last week and it was about the biggest challenge 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,440 people are currently facing within their career and within 13 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:47,720 tech. And the biggest answer was 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,840 staying relevant, especially with new emerging technologies, 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,840 tooling and AII get bombarded with new tooling. 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,920 Like from a marketing and ads perspective, you've been in tech 17 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,880 longer than me and likely longer than the audience. 18 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,600 How do you stay relevant or how do you keep up to date? 19 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:04,920 Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry to admit the. 20 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:06,440 I didn't want. To I'm a dinosaur. 21 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:11,480 Yeah, I I've, I've been I was there in the second AI winter 22 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,640 like Gandalf. So yes, I think it, it is about 23 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:25,440 like when I find myself in a very difficult sort of problem 24 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,720 set, I always say, what is the Super set for this? 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,480 Step back and look at the bigger picture, if you will, and then 26 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,840 dive back in. So for engineers right now, like 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,960 we have so many things to keep up with, but essentially what 28 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:46,720 you're doing is taking an idea and turning that into code with 29 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,120 certain conditions, assumptions and prerequisites and then 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,760 maintainability etcetera like also maintenance of it. 31 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:59,840 So that is not changing. So wherever you're strong, look 32 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,920 at the tools that will sort of amplify your strengths. 33 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,240 And when, whenever, wherever on this journey you're lacking 34 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,600 things, invest in them. And sometimes it's a tool. 35 00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:14,200 For example, I recently advocated in my writing as well 36 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,880 for engineers. Now there is, there has never 37 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,800 been a great time to look into like how product specifications 38 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,520 are written because that is upstream from your work, but it 39 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,200 defines the quality of your work as well, right? 40 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:34,280 So this we have this thing with like cost of an error. 41 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:39,120 If it happens on production, it's highly costly and in the 42 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,320 value chain, if you catch it sooner, better, right? 43 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,120 So now we have, we spend less time typing code. 44 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,120 That means maybe we have more time thinking, reasoning about 45 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,960 the product, talking to the product manager or customers and 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,280 understanding the context even better because you can create 47 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,280 something that is even more maintainable and it's grounded 48 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,640 on its utility, not just a specification you've received. 49 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:07,800 So being intentional, I guess the short answer, like there's a 50 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,640 lot of things being thrown at you, It doesn't mean that you 51 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:13,880 have to respond to all of them. Look, you look at yourself, what 52 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,360 kind of an engineer you want to be or what type of an 53 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,160 organization you are in and what creates more value and then 54 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,880 invest in those things, experiment with it to see if it 55 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,360 will amplify your value contribution or not. 56 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,360 In my case, at a start up, definitely like code generation 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,640 amplifies my contribution because I can test things, I can 58 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:38,360 tweak them independently and I can sign up on them myself. 59 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,400 Maybe in a different organization is, yeah, just 60 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,840 generating more tests so that the quality can keep up. 61 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,960 I feel like you have the experience to make sure that you 62 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,560 feel in control with whatever tooling comes up. 63 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,480 And my assumption is that the people that answer this, how to 64 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,160 stay relevant with new technologies and AI, maybe they 65 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,440 identify with what they do. And then if something comes 66 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,840 along that speeds up that whole process, it's like, yeah, but 67 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,640 this is what I was good at. So what do I do now then? 68 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,920 Do I go wide and indeed go more towards product or talk to 69 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,240 customers because maybe I've never done that before? 70 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,680 Or do I still go deeper and try and find an edge which AI can't 71 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,360 solve yet? Both, I guess should be 72 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:28,040 strategies to evaluate. I think we are seeing a very 73 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:37,000 rapid and mass commoditization of coding and for justified 74 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,560 reasons as well, like it can be repetitive, it can be wasteful, 75 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,760 right? So I understand if organizations 76 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,000 and people feel like this is a, this is a right way to approach 77 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,040 it. So that's why we are seeing all 78 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,280 this push. But there are things where there 79 00:04:55,280 --> 00:05:00,680 are areas, domains, where maybe this is still not the case, or 80 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,920 the risks of generated code could be very high. 81 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,440 Then you might still, yeah, have more leverage as an individual. 82 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:15,080 But it would be foolish not to accept this as the reality and 83 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,640 open your thinking to it. Like can I do more of what I do 84 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:24,920 with the new technologies and maintain the quality or have 85 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,800 more time to go deeper right that what I'm doing now being 86 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:34,080 more hands on now I can actually, I can create an 87 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,320 architect, I can create a documentation engineer persona 88 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,440 and then use all of them to do a reasonable job that I wouldn't 89 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,400 otherwise be able to do. For my context, it makes sense. 90 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,000 I'm not saying that is the way to go for every organization, 91 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,320 but for a 2 two people start up, it makes a lot of sense to go 92 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:58,440 faster and wherever you can make the differentiation. 93 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,120 In my case, for example, I have quite a bit of experience 94 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,880 developing products, rolling out products, and I like being 95 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:11,240 customer oriented. So now I can do more of that and 96 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:16,040 still do a reasonable job in terms of the code I create and 97 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,160 roll out. And I like that because then I 98 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,840 can sort of move across this value stream and do what's 99 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:28,560 important, right? I'm talking to customers, I'm 100 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,960 doing research, I'm writing PR DS for myself. 101 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,920 I'm reviewing my PR DS also called as generation assisted 102 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:38,800 and then feeding them into ER DS. 103 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:44,160 So I'm running the full life cycle, maybe lighter than other 104 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,040 organizations. They need more engineering 105 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,400 rigor. But in my case, I can move up 106 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,680 and down for everyone. I think it will be the same like 107 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:57,280 if you're ignoring the rest and just trying to silo yourself 108 00:06:57,280 --> 00:07:00,560 into one step of the value stream, that's going to be 109 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,160 challenged whether you like it or not. 110 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,040 I mean, I think I do fear as well that we might lose the 111 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,760 human touch in certain things. So there's a maybe dystopian 112 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:18,520 angle to this always in in the back of my head, but I don't 113 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,840 think we can put the cat back in back in the bag. 114 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,120 Oh, no, no, I agree with that. Yeah, yeah. 115 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,680 If you're thinking of people that are then either early in 116 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,840 career or mid career that see this new technology pop up and 117 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,680 that reflect and say, OK, how do I stay relevant? 118 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,120 What what steps can they undertake within their own 119 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,360 career really be intentional to make sure that they will stay 120 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:43,960 relevant in the end. So I think the first job you get 121 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:49,000 in in an industry is always something of a learning 122 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:54,000 experience. So for new starters, I would say 123 00:07:54,400 --> 00:08:00,080 just be as open as possible. Open your mind and you're you've 124 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,520 been lucky enough to find a job. Take whatever you can from that 125 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:08,800 experience, learn with it, evolve with it, and then you can 126 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,520 be a lot more intentional and informed about the next step 127 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:12,480 you're going to take. Right? 128 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,400 So the first one is always a bit of a throwaway, OK, It's OK, 129 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,880 right? You also, yeah, hit the wall a 130 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,440 few times in your first job. That's also fine. 131 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,720 In the second one, then you take the learnings and then you step 132 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,600 back and say, OK, these are the parts of my job that I really 133 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,080 enjoy doing. These are the parts of my job I 134 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,640 don't enjoy so much doing, but I can tolerate and these are the 135 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,080 things I don't want to do. If you can create those buckets 136 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,039 very loosely, then you have something to iterate from. 137 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,400 And that's what I did repetitively actually in my 138 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,200 career. And about five years ago I said, 139 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:51,800 I want to end up doing my own thing. 140 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,920 I knew that like this is, this has been in the works for five 141 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:56,360 years for me where I am right now. 142 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:01,760 And that helped me a lot because then I made a few decisions 143 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,640 along the way that would sort of tweak my position and bring me 144 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,440 to this exit, right, or to this new branch of my career. 145 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,400 So I recommend the same, but the first one, yeah, you have to be 146 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,120 open and roll with the punches. Then you iterate from there and 147 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,000 then you say, OK, these are the things that really work for me, 148 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,720 that give me energy and motivation and satisfaction, 149 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:25,840 right? And that's what I want for all 150 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:27,520 the engineers. That's why I wrote all the 151 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,480 things I I did like. I think it would be a shame to 152 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,120 waste this opportunity of being alive and doing things. 153 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:41,560 So the next thing to do is you have a long term plan. 154 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:46,000 How do you break it into chunks? Like the engineering work we do, 155 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,680 right? You don't try to code the whole 156 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:51,040 thing in one night. You break it up and you think 157 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,480 about how you're going to bring those pieces together. 158 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,080 I'm a big fan of Legos. Like people who know me know 159 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:02,960 that and like reusable parts and thinking ahead, like, OK, I want 160 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,720 to make a part that will be able to move. 161 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,800 So you set it up like that. So smaller chunks and that's the 162 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,240 shorter term, like you have a long term vision for yourself, 163 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:18,880 then you learn the experience to as a mirror to see where you 164 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,160 are, where you want to go. And then you create the next 165 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:27,720 step, next iteration in for me. For me a A1 year horizon was 166 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,760 usually good enough, but things might have changed a little bit 167 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,000 recently, like maybe six months re evaluation is good. 168 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:35,400 That's what I feel, yeah. Things. 169 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,440 Are moving so fast and beyond our control as well. 170 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:44,320 So but having a feedback loop on your short term progression as 171 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,280 well, I think is is important. And then and that doesn't change 172 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,680 if you're mid career or early career, like just create a 173 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:56,280 system for short term feedback loops so that you can check if 174 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,000 what you're doing still makes sense for you and in the 175 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,640 industry. And that's the other thing, like 176 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,320 wherever your career takes you, it doesn't mean that that's the 177 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,720 only option, right? When I designed competency 178 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,000 framework at the large organization, for example, we 179 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,280 tried to make that as industrial line as possible. 180 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,000 So not hyper focused to the organization we were creating 181 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,840 and managing, but to the industry. 182 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,840 So if when people move out of the organization, they are still 183 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,280 compatible with the rest of the industry. 184 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:33,280 If the organization doesn't do it for you, you should do it for 185 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,560 yourself for your career. And that takes me all the way 186 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:40,520 back to like our limited time on earth and why we do the things 187 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,920 we do. I made the calculation when I 188 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:48,760 was creating that presentation. It's about 13% of our existence 189 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:53,200 that we pour into our work, if not more, right? 190 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,840 I, I think for me, definitely more. 191 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,720 I get hooked into something and I, I can't let it go. 192 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,320 I want to get it done. I want to see their end result. 193 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,880 So I've definitely poured more hours in, Yeah. 194 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,880 So it's good to be intentional about like creating your road 195 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,320 map and then chunking it and iterating on it and getting 196 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,120 feedback. And 13% that's is that of waking 197 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,840 hours or of just hours total? Hours total. 198 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,200 OK, so sleep is like a big chunk. 199 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:23,080 Absolutely, of course. Everything else, yeah, it should 200 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,920 be. At least you have sacrifices 201 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,560 somewhere. But 13 percent is more than I 202 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:29,160 thought, yeah. Yeah. 203 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,760 And this doesn't even include like commute and other things. 204 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,800 Maybe it's now less, right? That's another big shift that we 205 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,520 have seen in commute less. But back in the day when I 206 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,560 started, commute was a big chunk of my life as well. 207 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:48,000 And I was doing learning and development during commute so 208 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,360 that I wouldn't waste those hours. 209 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,320 For me, the the hard part when you mentioned like long term 210 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,200 plan, I've mentioned many times on the podcast, I'd love to 211 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,520 start my own business, have a startup, be self-sufficient with 212 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,160 regards to that. I really create something that I 213 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,880 own and get pleasure out of doing. 214 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,760 That's one track. Then I have, I love personal 215 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,800 development, talking to people, figuring out what makes them 216 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,760 take and how they can thrive. Also within an organization, be 217 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,520 kind of an advisor or a mentor in that aspect. 218 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,560 And I feel like engineering management fits more within 219 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:19,080 that. And then I also like doing a 220 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,040 podcast and then standing on stage and actually sharing 221 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,960 knowledge, creating docs, making content for people to learn and 222 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,160 to thrive off of. And that's more the developer 223 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,920 advocacy role. So then I have a lot of 224 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,360 branches, and that's not just doing software engineering. 225 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,200 I also love more the product sense, like you talking to 226 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,080 customers, figuring out what actually is of value, 227 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,680 experimenting with that, throwing things away that don't 228 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:44,280 make sense, and then thriving through that. 229 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,680 I don't have to be the person that executes necessarily. 230 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,960 So they have many options and then I have a very hard time 231 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,200 picking and choosing, especially when we're talking about not 232 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,840 just a one year plan, but on a longer term horizon. 233 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,480 What I want to do is really what I struggle with when it comes to 234 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:01,960 being more intentional with my own career path. 235 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:08,360 Yes, you and I seem to have a lot in common start up advocacy. 236 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,880 Like maybe not on the very technical things, but I've been 237 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:17,240 writing about like career management and skills 238 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,480 development, collaboration, teamwork, all of those things, 239 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:27,680 sometimes more philosophical and maybe like tangential, but I'm 240 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,320 interested in helping others as well. 241 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,680 And then also I've enjoyed every other job I, I've done. 242 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,120 Like yourself, I guess. Like it doesn't mean that you 243 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,360 don't like what you're doing today, but you might want to end 244 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,040 up doing something else in a few years that's also perfectly 245 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,480 compatible. So I totally resonate with that 246 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,560 statement. And now also, I don't have any 247 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,560 other forcing function. So I am dictating my calendar 248 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,880 and I I'm more more and more faced with that reality. 249 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,160 But I think that the then the start up experience is helping 250 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,800 me out here in a weird way. Like what is the one thing you 251 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:15,640 can not not do that you want to make sure it it has evolved even 252 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,800 a little bit today. I think that should be the first 253 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,600 priority that you invest in first and other things then fall 254 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:28,400 into place, right? So, but it's a tough question to 255 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,960 answer. It's a very deeply personal 256 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:37,520 thing to answer as well. I think it takes a while to be 257 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,480 also to learn how to be honest with yourself. 258 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,960 Like it takes experience to know what you like and don't like. 259 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,560 That's why I said like the first job, just do and learn from it 260 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,640 because that's your step zero. And then that's why I 261 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,880 recommended engineers to take stock of things that they've 262 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,560 done and they enjoyed and that is differentiated for them as 263 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,560 well As for the industry, so they can leverage that and turn 264 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,520 it into earning. And then you still have to look 265 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,760 at the long term plan. And in my case, I've been 266 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,520 investing in being able to set up a company. 267 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,720 I didn't get the financial returns I hoped from like 268 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,200 exiting with companies etcetera. But I still had the intention to 269 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,960 end up where I am not right now. And all I had to do was like, 270 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,960 OK, everything else is in place. I don't have the financial 271 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,360 cushion. Can I do it not and for how long 272 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,960 That was the decision. So again, like the biggest 273 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,800 decision was already like made for I made it for myself five 274 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,920 years ago that I would do this and what type of a startup 275 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,160 founder I would want to be. And I've been investing in that 276 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:55,560 everyday with everything I do, I try to also gain something that 277 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,480 contributes to this, right? So maybe on the local maximum, 278 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,720 it's not the investment. But then when you zoom out and 279 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,280 look at the global maximum, I was, I was investing in that. 280 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:12,599 The type of challenges I jumped into at work, outside work, the 281 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:16,319 things I've read, these are always like in the backdrop 282 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:21,920 contributing to me positioning myself to do the one, at least 283 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,119 one company that I I was designing and running. 284 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,760 Here I am now. So that's very interesting. 285 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,320 But yeah, that doesn't like your biggest priority being something 286 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,200 longer term doesn't mean that you don't enjoy today, right? 287 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:44,000 It's just what is it superimposing those so that they 288 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,120 you get like multiple wins? Yeah, I feel like what you 289 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,080 mentioned with regards to early in career, that's really what I 290 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,200 had. I joined in operations and my 291 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,080 idea was to learn as fast as possible. 292 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,480 Then I joined consultancy and I had experience in the back end 293 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,480 and it was a front end project. They would like, do you want to 294 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,920 do this? And I had no clue to be honest, 295 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,240 if I think back, but I I wanted to experience as much as 296 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,680 possible and as fast as possible. 297 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,920 So I said yes. I said yes to a lot of things 298 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,000 where I thinking back now, now it doesn't make sense, but back 299 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,960 then it did because anything was kind of new ground and new 300 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,800 exploration. Now I do have a lot of learnings 301 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,120 with regards to the things I don't like and that I feel like 302 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:25,240 gets me closer to eventually what I will want to do on the 303 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,120 long term horizon. I think maybe in the grand 304 00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:32,320 scheme of things, it's just very odd for me. 305 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,160 Maybe this is who I am to think of something I'm going to do for 306 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,440 the longer term. Right now I'm having fun doing a 307 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,360 lot of things. I'm quite, I'm very happy with 308 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:44,840 what I do nowadays and the only thing I, I don't want to like 309 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,080 give up is this feeling of growing and learning 310 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,920 continuously with the things that I've dropped. 311 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,560 It's usually been the feeling of, I don't feel like I add 312 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:54,840 value. I don't feel like I have 313 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,920 anything personally that I can learn from. 314 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,040 There might be impact for the organization, but if it's not in 315 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,400 there for me necessarily, then I will have to make sure that, OK, 316 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,040 the impact for the organization can stay, but I can take myself 317 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,680 out of that situation. That's usually what I found 318 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,200 myself in and I feel like that's OK in the end. 319 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,160 There's multiple tracks, there's multiple paths. 320 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,320 I try and be more and more intentional. 321 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,520 I feel like I've I've gone from that first phase where 322 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,440 everything is kind of green and fresh to being more intentional. 323 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,640 But then what I want to do with that intent, or what that intent 324 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,040 is even going to be, I don't know yet. 325 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,760 Yeah. Well, one thing I can recommend 326 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,120 I've done myself, I've recommended a lot of engineers 327 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:39,040 is to really ask yourself like, why am I enjoying this or why am 328 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:40,680 I not enjoying that? Right. 329 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,800 We've all done the five wise exercise at one point in her 330 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,400 career. You can apply it to your career 331 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,200 as well. That helps you. 332 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,120 And you should take some time aside for this and find yourself 333 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:57,200 or immerse yourself in a, in a setting where you can think 334 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,600 freely, could be complete. Like for me, it's pen and paper 335 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,400 and a cup of coffee or something. 336 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:09,560 Definitely not a laptop. I don't want to follow each 337 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,680 rabbit hole of my thinking. I just want to take stock. 338 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,320 And I ask myself, OK, how did this go? 339 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,720 What did I learn from it? Why did I enjoy this more than 340 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,160 other things? And also, surprisingly, it's 341 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,960 liberating because then you can tell people about it. 342 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:33,360 And that helps them help you. Even your manager could be your 343 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:35,920 ally. And I have a very good example 344 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,080 not from me, but and someone I worked with, they had a, they 345 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,920 had someone who wanted to switch careers completely, become a 346 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,960 chef or ABM bed and breakfast host or something. 347 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:50,960 But they won't, they didn't have money to do it. 348 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,960 They were good at what they did today, which was coding. 349 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,280 So they made a plan to be able to end up in that position in a 350 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,760 few years, and they did. And their manager knew about it. 351 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,000 They could manage their team, they could plan for the 352 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:10,480 transition and everything. It was mutually beneficial that 353 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,840 they could establish a general direction and then slowly move 354 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:15,720 towards it. It doesn't mean that like if 355 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,800 they want to leave in three years, you have to ask them to 356 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,040 leave the organization today. And they are very motivated to 357 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,320 be where they are that day. So there's no problem. 358 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,400 And we are all professions, we are all grown-ups. 359 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,520 We can do that. So I think that kind of thinking 360 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,480 also helped me a lot when I was really getting frustrated about 361 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,720 certain things in my career. I was asking myself why? 362 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,840 Why is this bothering me? Because it's limiting my ability 363 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,760 to contribute. It's giving, putting shackles, 364 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,720 right? And OK, then I need to change it 365 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:52,960 or like I'm getting super excited about this, but I won't 366 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,480 have the returns. OK, then I will pace myself. 367 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,640 It's it's not going to give me my energy back if I pour it in. 368 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,680 So I have to, yeah, just for that. 369 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,800 So asking yourself what makes you tick? 370 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:14,640 Why gives you some ideas on like where you want to end up as 371 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,520 well. Yeah, The poll that I alluded 372 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,680 to, the second point that people voted on the most was 373 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,680 negotiating a higher salary and promotions, which is going to 374 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,840 tie to that has actually been third. 375 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,280 I've never worked in big tech organizations, but some of the 376 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,880 feedback that I've heard or some of the signals is that the 377 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,560 promotion process is kind of broken, where it's not just on 378 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,800 merit, but it's actually about kind of showing other people 379 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,640 what you do compared to actually providing value for the 380 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,280 organization. It's not just what you do, it's 381 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,320 also who knows what you do, which is an interesting tidbit. 382 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,920 I haven't faced it too much, but I know you've worked in big 383 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,720 tech. What would be your advice on 384 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,960 kind of negotiating a higher salary or even getting a 385 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,200 promotion on that aspect? I've operated in big tech and 386 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,280 I've seen the bigger machinery behind it, and I've worked at a 387 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,600 somewhat smaller organization where I had to run this for the 388 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:16,440 entire engineering organization. And I'll confess, I know who I 389 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,840 am, what my values are, and people who know me can attest to 390 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,160 that. You can try your damn hardest 391 00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:27,960 and only make the process so much unbiased. 392 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,760 Like it's just an emergent property of things, right? 393 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:37,800 You can design counterfactor processes, but you will have run 394 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,120 out of time eventually. So to be able to decide who gets 395 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:44,000 promoted, you need to run a process. 396 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,680 And you cannot put all your engineering hours of all your 397 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,120 like yourself and the engineering managers and team 398 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:54,120 leads into this process. It has to be a part of 399 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:58,280 everything you do, but it needs to be done within a within a 400 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,240 month, right? Like when you start the process 401 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:05,280 and review everyone, etcetera. So I think I'm trying to caution 402 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,760 people against expecting too much or being too idealistic 403 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,160 about these processes because I've tried my damn hardest to 404 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,880 make it and it you have to stay pragmatic. 405 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,960 So there's always error in that process. 406 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:27,840 Don't expect otherwise. The other big call out I make in 407 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:34,280 my writing as well is no one cares more about your career 408 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,880 than you. No one ever, ever will. 409 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:40,760 Not your mother, not your partner, not your dog. 410 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,080 You are the owner of your career. 411 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,600 You are the DRI of your career. The sooner you embrace it, the 412 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,840 better. Because then you can be more 413 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,680 planned, organized around it. If the organization you're 414 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,760 working in has a certain methodology, understand it. 415 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,400 You don't have to like it. You don't have to subscribe 100% 416 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,800 to it, but you should know how it affects you and your career 417 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,720 progression in the direction you want to go. 418 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,280 So if if getting promoted in that organization means a lot to 419 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,680 you financially, situationally, or like you want that title, 420 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,080 then you need to know how to work with that system. 421 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,640 You people sometimes get manipulative. 422 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,600 It's up to them. I'm not judging their character, 423 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,000 I try not to be, but I try to understand the mechanics around 424 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,000 me and use them, work with them, right? 425 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,680 And of course not harm anyone else in the process, right? 426 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,360 But this, the system will never be 100% fair. 427 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,200 So you have to fend for yourself. 428 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,680 You have to understand how to work with the system. 429 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:53,680 And there's a part of this whole thing, and I think you've 430 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:59,840 mentioned in your last Q&A as well, politics is a very human 431 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,240 thing. So I think you were looking at 432 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,720 it a bit more like in a toxic way, right? 433 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,560 You framed it as a toxic I, I see it differently. 434 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,880 I think politics is very human. Again, being manipulative or not 435 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,240 is up to the individual, but building relationships and 436 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:23,000 leveraging them to understand or showcase, like understand what 437 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,560 can happen and showcase your work is fine. 438 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,480 You choose how you're going to do that. 439 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:32,240 And I think in an earlier episode there was something 440 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:38,520 about that too about like you can say whatever you want as 441 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,440 long as you have like good intentions. 442 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,840 I think it was about feedback, but the same applies to 443 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,080 promoting your work. You, if you're honest about it, 444 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,120 if you know it's grounded on facts and you're proud of what 445 00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:53,640 you've done and you want people to know it, that's fine, right? 446 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,920 If you're exaggerating the value or stealing credit, it's up to 447 00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,760 you. And if you get caught, don't 448 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,800 cry, right? So I think it's perfectly fine 449 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,440 to showcase your work. And if you're, if you're really 450 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,600 after that promotion, work for it. 451 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,000 But be careful, be smart about what that means. 452 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,840 For example, if just to get a promotion, you go on a project 453 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,520 and that project gets cancelled, yeah, it was your choice to be 454 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,040 on that project because you were so motivated about the 455 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,080 promotion. Learn from it and try to maybe 456 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,000 have a different blend of priorities, not just driven by 457 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,280 promotion. Because I think if people are 458 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:41,320 only driven by promotion, then I've seen that to backfire a lot 459 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,160 more frequently than other things, right? 460 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,440 If people are focused on, I'm going to be good at what I do, 461 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,840 I'm going to add so much value to my team, my organization, I'm 462 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,320 going to make it better. And I think in your podcasts, 463 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,000 I've seen a lot of these details as well. 464 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,600 That lifts you up, right? Because people look at you and 465 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,280 like, OK, this person is not only contributing, they are 466 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,360 trying to make it better. And that starts to compound and 467 00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,920 that gets you a promotion maybe six months later than you had 468 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,520 imagined, but you still get there. 469 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,600 If you're only after promotion, you start fighting with people. 470 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,760 So that can backfire. But if you, if that's the person 471 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,600 you want to be, be it, right, it's fine. 472 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,400 I'm not saying the system is perfect. 473 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,600 I'm not saying you won't get that promotion if you're only 474 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,720 motivated about promotion. People do that. 475 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,640 I've seen it. And I'm also telling confessing 476 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,600 people designing and running these processes, they cannot 477 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,840 guarantee 100% fairness. So you have to take take care of 478 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,680 yourself. One thing I've been recommending 479 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,880 very strongly, and I know this might not resonate with you so 480 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,880 much, is that brag dog. Write it down. 481 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,800 Write your accomplishments down because you'll forget about it. 482 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,160 Especially this hurts people who are humble because you think 483 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,760 people will see it. Your manager will be too busy 484 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,080 with other things sometimes. And I've done that. 485 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,520 And for people who've been exposed to my shortcomings, I'm 486 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,000 sorry. But yeah, I did it with good 487 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,640 intentions. I was working a lot of things. 488 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,000 Maybe I didn't pay enough attention, but it happens. 489 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,960 But if you write it down, you have it written down, and you 490 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,680 can always present it in the right context at the right time. 491 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,960 You choose, right? You can say, you can just dump 492 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,840 like 100 pages on a, on a on the table and say this is, these are 493 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,840 all the things I've done. Or you can say I'll choose five 494 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,200 important things, right? And just talk to my manager 495 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,640 about those things or my colleagues about those things so 496 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,800 they know because it means something to me. 497 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,240 Yeah, the the brag dog is interesting because like I, I 498 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,720 consider myself humble and then writing down the things that 499 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,040 I've done or the impacts and trying to make them measure 500 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,000 measurable. Like even in a resume, I feel 501 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,720 like it's, it's weird for me to do so, even though they might be 502 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,440 objectively facts and something I've contributed to it. 503 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,640 I feel like most of the time I'm taking more credit than I should 504 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,160 because I'm just a piece of the puzzle and I might be an 505 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,400 individual contributor, but definitely the whole team and 506 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,280 the organization, they play a factor in that. 507 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,640 To then write it down and to own it either, whether it be in our 508 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,880 resume or in a promotion process, it just doesn't sit 509 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,720 well with me. All right, let's tackle resume 510 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,800 first. It's kind of your interface 511 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,200 document, right? People are trying to choose the 512 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,840 right person for the right job. So without the resume, you're 513 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,600 not really giving them a chance to assess if you're the right 514 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:41,240 fit. Again, how, how honest you are 515 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,920 with what you put in your resume is up to you, but if you want 516 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,920 people to understand how you fit in an organization, what you can 517 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,280 do within that organization, it's it's how you document it. 518 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,120 It's maybe not the best platform, but yeah, it, it 519 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,760 works. We've been using resume for. 520 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,920 A long time. You can be factual, especially 521 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,760 to prevent misunderstandings. You can say I've worked in this 522 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,840 organization, I've done these things, I've been a part of the 523 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,480 team, right? The words you use will help you 524 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,600 set the right context, right expectations. 525 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,600 And in the interview process, based on your CV, you can always 526 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,520 reveal more of yourself. But we are trying to optimize 527 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,800 the selection matchmaking process right between the 528 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,240 individual and the organization. And CV is the interface 529 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,760 documentation we use. So I see it in that way. 530 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,480 I'm very neutral to it. I want people to know what I'm 531 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,360 doing so that they can talk to me about the right things and I 532 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,160 can help them, so I see it as a helpful thing to do. 533 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,760 I, I agree, I'm trying to bypass that system because the whole 534 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,400 interface document and especially with AI tooling 535 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,800 nowadays, if I give my resume to ChatGPT, it will say make 536 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,600 everything measurable, how much percentage that you impact. 537 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,920 And and that's like, I, I understand the organization. 538 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,520 I try and understand how the organization makes money or 539 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,880 reduces costs and then how the project that I'm in plays a part 540 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,800 in that. But to completely own that and 541 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,440 put that on my resume, for me that's like a step too far. 542 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,680 So me bypassing the system is basically trying to figure out 543 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,000 who does the recruitment process and then see if I can have a 544 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,120 conversation with them and show how I can value add value other 545 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,560 than this resume interface talk. It's not perfect, but that's 546 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:24,880 kind of my solution to the problem. 547 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,680 Again, use the right phrasing, like you can say. 548 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,600 I mean, I worked at Big Tech. So everything we did in that 549 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,720 team and we were in payments for a very large organization, every 550 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,960 little thing, every feature we did was millions, 100,000,000 551 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,280 billions even, right? So if you put that on your 552 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,600 resume, I worked on this 5 billion thing, you might be 553 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,280 exaggerating, right, because it is currently amplified with the 554 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,960 size of the organization. Economies of scale. 555 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,000 And the person interviewing you for that role should also do 556 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,360 their job and ask your contributions to it. 557 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:09,160 So again, you can exaggerate it and people can buy it, but it 558 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,040 doesn't make you better at your next job. 559 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,040 So be honest as at least for me, yeah, being honest is very 560 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,920 important so that I also don't end up wasting my time. 561 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,280 And I've made enough mistakes to know. 562 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,040 Yeah, sometimes you figure that out like 6 months or a year into 563 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,720 the job that yeah, I shouldn't have like given that impression, 564 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:30,800 this is not what I want to do. I. 565 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:32,920 Think it's a good. Revelation. 566 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,720 Yeah. And try to express your 567 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,560 expectations and contributions in a way that is sort of 568 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,840 bringing the right type of interest to you. 569 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,880 So that's why CV is an important front. 570 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,840 You're showcasing the right things in the right way. 571 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,040 But you choose right. You don't have to say or you 572 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,160 don't have to own everything that your team did. 573 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,080 You can put it in the right light. 574 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,480 Yeah, the problem that I see, and this is also in the 575 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,360 promotion process, is if everyone is playing that game 576 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,280 and owning everything, like the single part of what a team has 577 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,320 achieved in their own resume, then I feel like, yeah, I, I do 578 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,199 have to play that game. Otherwise you stay behind. 579 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,480 Like maybe within the resume, it's it's less likely that you 580 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,440 have the same people applying for the same job that have the 581 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,280 same background. But when it comes to a 582 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,400 promotion, if everyone plays the game and has kind of a bragging 583 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,840 talk or at least they have written down their impact and 584 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,520 their contribution, I feel like I would be behind if I don't do 585 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:26,920 that. And I've never worked in big 586 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,400 tech but it wouldn't make me comfortable because I I already 587 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:32,800 have trouble doing that on a resume basis basically. 588 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,560 Yes, people play the system game system. 589 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,639 It happens. We've had that as well. 590 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:45,239 And when that is that is happening, you usually introduce 591 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,600 countermeasures for those things like what you track which 592 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,520 projects and if multiple people take credit for it, then you 593 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,360 start asking more questions. And if you get, if you catch 594 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,240 someone exaggerating their contributions during a promotion 595 00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:03,960 review, yeah, that's going to backfire big time. 596 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,680 So the system evolves eventually. 597 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,600 That's why being honest is a long term strategy always a 598 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,680 winner, right? You can say, for example, in my, 599 00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:18,800 in that team, we had high stakes, right? 600 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,960 All the engineers working on those features felt the 601 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,160 pressure, the significance of the things we we were building, 602 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,120 right. We had a nine month project. 603 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,880 It started as a small thing and it it exploded into ten team 604 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:39,280 contribution 3 continents. And we felt the pressure of that 605 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,240 project, everyone and I wasn't contributing, I wasn't after 606 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,960 promotion as an engineer through it. 607 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,360 I was managing the team that took part of it. 608 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,600 And I think they engineers in that team should be able to take 609 00:35:53,600 --> 00:36:01,280 credit for handling such a big project, not the bottom line 610 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:06,360 impact directly, right? I think you can still find the 611 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,320 right sweet spot of expressing that like you've designed the 612 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:15,240 ERD for that project and you got sign up from 10 different teams. 613 00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:18,360 That is an accomplishment. You should take credit for it, 614 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,240 but you didn't do the front end of it. 615 00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:25,920 You didn't do that part of it, and you can still be honest 616 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,120 about that. Yeah, right. 617 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,120 That's your contribution and own that. 618 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:31,240 Yeah. And like that people reading 619 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:36,960 that, checking that evaluating you will hopefully look at it 620 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,720 and say, OK, this person did this and this is actually a part 621 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:44,240 of what we expect for someone to get promoted, right? 622 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:50,400 And 11 big call out promotion is always after the fact. 623 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,960 You've been operating at that level long enough, sustained 624 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,760 that performance long enough that you get recognized and get 625 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,680 the new title, right? So I want to manage expectations 626 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,440 with everyone here. Promotion is not something you 627 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,400 showing multiple like small signals of everything and then 628 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,440 people say, Oh yeah, you might be able to do this next job. 629 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,280 We've seen that also hurt careers, right? 630 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,560 Like what is that called? There's a name for that. 631 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,520 Like you get promoted until you cannot be successful, right? 632 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,880 I forgot the name. But anyway, So good 633 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,440 organizations will usually evaluated based on sustained 634 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,680 signal of you operating at next level. 635 00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:32,640 So your focus for promotion should be operating at the at 636 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,080 the next level. And that means you need to 637 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,560 understand what's expected at the next level, get there and 638 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,080 hold it. And that's where our competency 639 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,760 frameworks come in. That's another big, big, big 640 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,800 factor to how you manage your career. 641 00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:51,360 And I've advocated if your organization doesn't have it, 642 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,160 it's not an excuse for you not to have it. 643 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,040 You can always have your own competency framework and then 644 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,720 discuss with your manager, hey, how do I perform at the next 645 00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:07,080 level in this organization? This is my take, this is my 646 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,160 research. Does it make sense to you If I 647 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,360 do these things, will I be adding more value and get 648 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,720 recognized for it? You can have that conversation 649 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:17,600 at any time. If the organization has a 650 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,240 competency framework, understand it. 651 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:22,880 It can also be gained. It's also not 100% fair, but you 652 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,360 at least have a target and if those things don't resonate with 653 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:27,880 you, you're in the wrong organization. 654 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:32,320 Can you give an example of what is typically in a competency 655 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:33,320 framework? What? 656 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,320 What do I think? I've designed 1 so I have some 657 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:41,280 experience for engineering for for us it was of course 658 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,880 technical skills at certain levels. 659 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:49,000 Your impact radius defined your level quite a bit, right? 660 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,960 Are you able to design A feature by yourself and have high 661 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,320 success rate in implementation and also on board other 662 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,920 engineers to get it done? Then your impact radius is 663 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,640 increasing, right? When you're a junior fresh out 664 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,240 of uni, you get a task. When you are a staff engineer, 665 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:14,280 you get a wide scoped, maybe not well defined challenge. 666 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,880 So that's the sort of scope change and radius change on your 667 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,560 impact that's expected. If you're a staff, staff plus 668 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,800 engineer that you can take that idea, talk to right people, 669 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,480 scope the problem, validate the problem and turn it into an 670 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,280 implementation plan and help the teams implement it, right? 671 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:39,920 So that's sort of the scope. So technical chops, scope, 672 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,560 stakeholder management, domain expertise, right? 673 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,440 You cannot be extremely successful if you don't 674 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,720 understand what the what business problem you're solving 675 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,920 with your contributions. So you need to spend more time 676 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,160 understanding we had those. And if it, if the organization 677 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:04,800 is big enough, contributing back to the community, your 678 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:09,160 organization becomes an expectation, leading the 679 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,360 culture, investing in others, lifting everyone up, mentoring, 680 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,760 for example. So those are the bigger. 681 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,280 Segments. But if you want simplistic, I 682 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:26,000 think technical chops and contribution collaboration are 683 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,000 the two big ones and you can divide them further. 684 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,640 And you would then layer out kind of the the levels in there, 685 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:39,960 OK, and plot yourself on there as well as in this is this is 686 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,600 where I'm at and this is what I want to grow into or. 687 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,000 So when I designed the competency framework for the 688 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:51,200 organization, I actually did design the engineering 689 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,040 leadership part as well. So included my job too. 690 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,520 But then my manager had to of course, validate the 691 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,000 expectations I was putting for my level and my level and above 692 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,280 so that we we would be able to sort of lift the organization up 693 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,200 through that. Yeah. 694 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:16,560 And the guidance we gave to engineers was like, look at this 695 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,160 and then assess yourself against these things and then you'll get 696 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,320 an assessment from your manager. That's how we are going to 697 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:29,000 calibrate and do this before the promotion discussions. 698 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,480 So that actually all the managers were asked to do it 699 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,040 well ahead of the cycle continuously so that we would 700 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:42,240 guide growth and we would be able to capture it at the right 701 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:43,840 time. We would know that, oh, this 702 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,200 person already reached this level. 703 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,920 They're meeting all the expectations already. 704 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,680 Then they would be natural candidates for promotion. 705 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,520 But those conversations during one on ones were the secret 706 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,400 sauce. And if you're not having them, 707 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,680 you're just waiting for the promotion cycle to kick in and 708 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,000 then evaluate. You will have a lot of 709 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,720 frustration as a manager as well. 710 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,000 It's very frustrating to to do it to try to retrofit those 711 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,680 discussions that you didn't have. 712 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,520 Yeah. So it's all about like, OK, 713 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,880 these are the expectations this organization has. 714 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,440 This is how you're performing. And on the individual level, you 715 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,160 look at those expectations and you ask yourself, am I really 716 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,760 interested in doing these things as a part of my growth? 717 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,440 Because this is what the this organization is asking. 718 00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:33,160 You can also challenge them. You go into your manager and say 719 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,880 this is actually not a good expectations. 720 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,960 And I'm sure a lot of organizations right now are sort 721 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,960 of in that messy stage where they're trying to understand how 722 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:48,680 to put AI into the those competencies so that they can 723 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,760 encourage people, motivate people the right way. 724 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,640 And some people are feeling like, oh, they're just. 725 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,840 You know, pushing AI. Yeah, yeah. 726 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:03,760 But those conversations need to be had and then you can reflect 727 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,240 on those conversations and say, OK, this organization helps me 728 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,000 get to my destination, whether in that organization or not, 729 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,960 right? You're growing in the right way. 730 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,080 And that's why in in the one eye designed, we try to keep like 731 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:25,160 technical and collaborative skills in a way that that would 732 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,160 just make you a good engineer wherever you go. 733 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,960 Yeah, the thing I love about this is it will show you not 734 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,560 just where you are, but also how to level up where growth is for 735 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,520 you. In the positions where I've been 736 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,760 where I was like I don't see any growth from me anymore. 737 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,320 It's the part where it really demotivated me. 738 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,840 Like there's a few factors where I get a lot of energy and I 739 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,160 where I get a lot of motivation to money. 740 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,760 Autonomous. How do you say being autonomous 741 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,760 is one of them? Being able to be curious is one 742 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,640 of them. Having people around me that can 743 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,800 actually share knowledge and take the time to do so as one of 744 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,320 them and seeing enough growth for me, I think it like 745 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,040 contributes towards that. Mastery Autonomy challenge. 746 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,200 Yeah, it's it's a good combination of all of that and 747 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,480 motivated engineers might be the most underrepresented thing we 748 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,160 talk about. It's like almost non existent 749 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,080 and it's a very personal thing, but a lot of factors can 750 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,680 influence that and seeing growth is a big factor in that as well. 751 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,040 Yeah, I've done some research on this one as well. 752 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:33,320 Motivation in knowledge work more broadly is an interesting 753 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:38,640 factor. I think it is the silent factor 754 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,800 that's all often under represented or not really paid 755 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,400 attention to. But I know myself, I've worked 756 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,440 with enough engineers to know that if someone, and if an 757 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,760 engineer, if a knowledge worker broadly, is motivated to do the 758 00:44:54,960 --> 00:45:00,120 job, they will do a great job. If someone is not motivated or 759 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:05,640 worse, demotivated to do a job, they will make you regret they. 760 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,440 Will make you regret. Because they are smart people, 761 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:09,840 right? They're educated, they're 762 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:14,240 experienced knowledge work is not easy to it's not we are not 763 00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:17,200 producing widgets. So if someone is not motivated, 764 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,000 you will not get the outcomes you expect from a motivated 765 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,640 person. And it's just that simple. 766 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,120 And the factors could be almost three times high, right? 767 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,480 Like a motivated engineer will get to the finish line. 768 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,720 I know that I've done that. And when I was not motivated, I 769 00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:38,760 delayed it or like postponed it or like put it in the backlog. 770 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,200 Whatever you do, you try to avoid that thing because you're 771 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,160 you're not excited about it or you're not properly motivated 772 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:47,840 about it. You don't know why it's there, 773 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,520 whatever the reason, right? And this is not necessarily 774 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,640 malicious behavior. It's just like friction. 775 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,680 It's very human. Yeah, you get it, get to it. 776 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,720 In the end you do it. But yeah, instead of doing it 777 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:03,880 the first thing, maybe you do that the fifth thing of your day 778 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,160 and then the next person does the the same, then you have a 779 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,320 compound of delay. So motivation is important and 780 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,560 you cannot motivate people. You cannot. 781 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,800 No, you cannot motivate them directly. 782 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,480 You cannot make it happen. No, exactly. 783 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:26,440 You create the conditions that people find joy, excitement, 784 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,200 challenge, and then they feel. So it is an emergent property of 785 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,600 humans. Like we, we find ourselves 786 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,720 motivated. OK, extrinsic motivation, yes, 787 00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:41,280 right, Let's touch on that. Pay, definitely, but that is 788 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,240 very short term. That's why I'm bold enough to 789 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:46,760 say like you cannot motivate people extrinsically. 790 00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:50,000 It only goes so far. Yeah, this I really had to 791 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,040 learn. And it was when I was more in a 792 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,920 people management role where I would see a lot of potential in 793 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,600 the person sitting across from me and I could see them doing 794 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,520 and making an impact, the impact that I wanted and that I thought 795 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:03,040 would be good for the organization. 796 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,760 And I would communicate that I would try and inspire, but I 797 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,880 cannot influence someone to act, right. 798 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,360 I can try and make a fire, but in the end as the flame on its 799 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,280 own. And that for me, when you say 800 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,360 you can't motivate people, that's where I, I thought of I, 801 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,080 I couldn't motivate this person to do it because probably it 802 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:22,720 wouldn't make them happy. So they didn't act. 803 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,960 I was really trying to inspire, but not everyone is like me. 804 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,600 I cannot force someone to act because I'm not that person. 805 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,520 Yeah, you cannot make people happy. 806 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,800 You cannot motivate people directly. 807 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,280 There are so many indirect factors to that. 808 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,080 For example, you can tell them, hey, this will make your 809 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,080 promotion. But if your organization has a 810 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,320 history of yeah, abusing promotion. 811 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,520 Yeah. Then they won't be motivated. 812 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,400 I know it's all bullshit. Yeah. 813 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,720 And then if you know that it is, there's not more you can say 814 00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:57,680 about it. So you can try to improve the 815 00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:59,320 system. And then they might feel like, 816 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,800 oh, this person is actually trying to improve the system. 817 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,320 I'll follow them. And that's another thing I've 818 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,840 also noticed discussed in on your podcast, like leadership. 819 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,200 I think motivation and leadership are tied in that way, 820 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:18,040 that whatever you do and how you do it creates that motivation in 821 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,320 others, and that's when you become a leader. 822 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,720 People choose you as their leader because you're they feel 823 00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:29,080 motivated by the things you do. It's just by having you there 824 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,160 even. Yeah, I agree completely. 825 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,600 One of the things that you mentioned that that really stuck 826 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,200 with me and it's not something that I thought of very early on 827 00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,440 in my career, is that career transcends organization 828 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,120 boundaries. So what you do is actually for 829 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,000 you and the fact that you cannot get a promotion or you don't 830 00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:48,880 really like the processes maybe in big tech versus other 831 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,520 organizations, it doesn't mean that your career ends or that 832 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,600 you've come to a blocking standstill because your career 833 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,880 transcends the organization. You can take your learnings with 834 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,680 you and apply them elsewhere and you are in control. 835 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,600 I feel like a lot of the feedback that I get and some of 836 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,000 the the questions that people ask are in this feeling of I'm 837 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,080 not in control and there's too many external factors in this 838 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,640 feeling of hopelessness. And I think with at least the 839 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,240 things that you've written about or the tools that you can offer 840 00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:18,920 people, not just from a management perspective, but even 841 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,880 going beyond organizational boundaries, it is a framework to 842 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,640 empower people when it comes to the career they have. 843 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:27,760 Thank you. I couldn't phrase it myself 844 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,800 better. I've been trying, but yeah, the 845 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,920 well, we were waiting for this podcast to nail it. 846 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,760 Yes, you phrase it very, very accurately. 847 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:42,720 I want people to own their careers and drive it themselves 848 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:49,160 and not try to retrofit it into the organization there in 849 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,160 necessarily. There will be overlaps. 850 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,480 I hope so. And then it's win win, right? 851 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,200 You're contributing to the organization. 852 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,720 They give you money, they give you recognition, they give you 853 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,240 other things that make your life joyful. 854 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,720 Great. If it is, not, look where it's 855 00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:08,720 going wrong, what your expectations are and what the 856 00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:13,280 organization's expectations are and remedy those situations. 857 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,000 If they're not salvageable, move on. 858 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,400 Your time is limited. They don't want you there if 859 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,080 you're not happy and you're not a good fit anyway, right? 860 00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:26,960 But if you catch those signals early, you can play, play, plan 861 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,120 your next move. Otherwise you become a victim of 862 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,760 like, yeah, your performance is not meeting and then let's put 863 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,120 you on the PIP and what not the whole thing. 864 00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:41,440 But sometimes you can see it a mile ahead and you can plan for 865 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,440 it and make the right transition for yourself. 866 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,760 So you manage your career. That's why I've sort of tried to 867 00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:51,400 distill all the best tools I've seen into this framework. 868 00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,000 I called it a framework as well, or toolkit, so that it would 869 00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:58,480 also be interesting for engineers to think about because 870 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,720 these are the things you can do. These are the hooks, These are 871 00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:06,040 the APIs that you can implement. And then they give you the 872 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:10,400 structure to manage your career in a transcending way. 873 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,720 And you get to where you, I hope you get to where you want to be 874 00:51:14,720 --> 00:51:15,800 in life. Through that. 875 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,920 I'll go back to the brag dog. I'm keeping the name so that it 876 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,920 does invoke that feeling as well. 877 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:28,480 I want to encourage people to also recognize their 878 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,600 accomplishments, write them down before they forget the context 879 00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,720 of it as well. Actually, what I've caused 880 00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:38,600 people to do was don't just write the thing. 881 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,680 Also write how it made you feel. Because that part you don't have 882 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,960 to share with your manager or you don't have to share in your 883 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:49,840 promo package, but that is your reflection on your journey at 884 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:53,640 that moment. If you do this weekly, like look 885 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,280 at on a Friday, at the end of the day, look at your week and 886 00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:58,640 say, oh, these are the things I've done. 887 00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:01,320 This was actually quite unexpected. 888 00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:06,600 I was even surprised, Oh, this was actually I could do better. 889 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,320 Keep those to yourself. But those are very insightful 890 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,240 observations. And if you don't do it at the 891 00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:16,440 end of that week or at the end of the month latest, you will 892 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,480 forget about it. And then you're just floating, 893 00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,640 you're drifting into your career, but you can be a lot 894 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,480 more observant on how things are going for you and decide what 895 00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,040 you have, what you want to do. And I want to be an example of 896 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,600 it. Like I've been planning my 897 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:37,360 current move for five years. And because it was spread over 898 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:41,520 five years, it wasn't a lot of work, but it gave me the North 899 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,080 Star to make the right decisions, change the right 900 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:50,040 things over time. And also that stability helped 901 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:55,840 me to, yeah, feel OK with these things and not take a lot of 902 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,480 financial risk unnecessarily, not be super reactive to 903 00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:02,120 whatever really annoyed me on on that day. 904 00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,440 I could step back and say, OK, I'm trying to learn something 905 00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,880 from this experience because it takes me to my goal. 906 00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,880 I can tolerate it or this is actually the second time and 907 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,120 it's not getting me to my destination. 908 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,760 I'll start changing. It calms you down as well, 909 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:22,200 knowing that you have a destination you want to get to 910 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,120 and you're in charge of it. I'm curious then to hear your 911 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,560 perspective and, and you can be blunt with me, you can be direct 912 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,400 with me. I do not have a long term plan 913 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,600 and I don't know if I'm doing myself a disservice by not 914 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,080 having that, by not putting a lot of thought into that, or 915 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,160 maybe not as much intent as I should. 916 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,600 I'm having a lot of fun living in the now, I'm experimenting 917 00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,480 with different aspects that I think are fun and I'm still 918 00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,760 evaluating because I don't think that much with regards to long 919 00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,200 term. I'm also a horrible planner, so 920 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,160 probably a lot of personal factors play into that, but I 921 00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,640 don't know if I'm doing myself a disservice by not having that. 922 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,080 I, I'll be blunt. I don't buy it for a second. 923 00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:06,880 I think you, you know, like you're just more sentimental 924 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:08,840 about it than organized about it. 925 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,640 You know that you're, for example, I'm guessing from the 926 00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,960 things I've seen, you like sampling different things, 927 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,640 learning different things to guide your process. 928 00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:24,800 So you're sort of experiment experientially evolving, but 929 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,960 you're intentional about that. So you're trying to learn as 930 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,600 much as possible so that you're maybe more experienced 931 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,800 horizontally. And then you'll see the things 932 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:38,840 that sort of you want to dive deeper. 933 00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,280 And so I think the only thing you're not doing is writing it 934 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:44,880 down. Like, I'll experiment with 935 00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:49,560 different things. And that only in my, in my mind 936 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,720 has the risk of not knowing when to stop with experimenting with 937 00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:56,720 one thing or not. So being planning ahead gives 938 00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:59,960 you a checkpoint where you say like, OK, it's been 6 months 939 00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:01,400 I've been trying these new things. 940 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,040 OK, some were a waste of time. If you close the loop, then I 941 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:10,360 think it's better. But I think you know generally 942 00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,280 how you want to evolve. I think you're investing in 943 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,840 learning different things because you will build your own 944 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,400 thing in the end and you want to have different experiences that 945 00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,280 feed into it. You just haven't written it 946 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,800 down. Yeah, I also have this what if? 947 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,680 Because what if I actually don't then take the next step because 948 00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,960 I, I am really enjoying the now and taking the next step is 949 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:34,480 uncomfortable. It's scary. 950 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,720 You can it can kind of move you away with what you are happy 951 00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:40,280 now. So then there is a risk that is 952 00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,680 kind of the what if that I do not take a next step. 953 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,080 Yeah, but the same applies to what if, right? 954 00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:48,560 Like what if you take the step and then it becomes? 955 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,040 Except that's the chance. Yeah, that's the risk. 956 00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:54,000 Yeah, very philosophically speaking. 957 00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:00,680 Everything's a trade off, and sometimes you have good grasp of 958 00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:02,720 the trade off, sometimes you don't. 959 00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,080 Yeah, and that's the beauty of life. 960 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:08,920 I like that, yeah. Let's round it off there. 961 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,200 Is there anything you still want to share before we round off 962 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,080 with the audience? Any perspective? 963 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:18,480 One thing we didn't have time to touch on to complete the picture 964 00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,480 and also in my presentation about career tool, career 965 00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:26,200 management tools, I listed three things as essential. 966 00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,400 Brag dog is one of them. Do it for yourself. 967 00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:30,840 You don't have to share it with anyone. 968 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:32,720 You just brag to yourself, right? 969 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,320 If it rubs you the wrong way, the term brag, just do it for 970 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:38,680 yourself. I think this will pay dividends. 971 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,440 It will make your experience more enjoyable. 972 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,240 The other one is this competency framework concept. 973 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,600 Again, a lot of organizations don't have it. 974 00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,600 It's not an excuse. You can say what is my next 975 00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:54,880 level? And in your case, for example, 976 00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,000 it could be like you'd create your own, right? 977 00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,640 Experimenting with multiple technologies at all times. 978 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,440 It could be the next level for you. 979 00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,880 And then maybe this time you are trying two different things. 980 00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,440 Maybe next year you want to be able to do 3. 981 00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,720 That's growth for you as well. So just project your own growth, 982 00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,720 make your own ladder and try to climb it again. 983 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,320 Do it for yourself. You don't have to do it for 984 00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,880 anyone, but if it overlaps with the organization, perfect. 985 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,720 The third one, which we haven't mentioned and very important is 986 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:32,800 your peers, your coaches, your mentors, especially mentors are 987 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:38,040 absolutely game changer. I've gotten so much value 988 00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:44,640 because having someone external, non judge, mental but 989 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,080 opinionated giving you feedback about what you're doing, how 990 00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,680 you're doing things is super refreshing. 991 00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:55,160 Right. We always look for supportive 992 00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:59,360 evidence of our thinking, but having someone unbiased and 993 00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,840 helping help trying to help you solve your challenges as an 994 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:10,040 external contributor is very valuable and surprisingly people 995 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:11,440 are open to it when you ask them. 996 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,320 I've done it. I actually had an interview some 997 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,560 years ago. In the end they had a better 998 00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:23,400 candidate, much more domain experience as well. 999 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,120 But the person who was interviewing me for my for that 1000 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,080 job, if I had it, would be my manager. 1001 00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,720 I went back to that person and asked them to be my mentor 1002 00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,920 because we resonated so much and they accepted. 1003 00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:42,960 And that person mentored me for almost 2 years. 1004 00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:49,160 I've learned so much and it helped me shape my thinking and 1005 00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:53,560 also improve the framework I was using to manage my career. 1006 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:59,120 So I highly encourage people to reach out and also be mentors 1007 00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:04,040 themselves. So I think we all enjoy working 1008 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:05,760 in this industry. It's very creative, very 1009 00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,600 challenging. Like there's so much to learn 1010 00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,440 and that human connection. Maybe something that AI will not 1011 00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,720 necessarily take away from us is that mentorship angle. 1012 00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:17,000 Absolutely. Yeah. 1013 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:18,640 Thank you so much for coming on and sharing. 1014 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:20,680 It's been a an absolute pleasure. 1015 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,040 Thank you so much for having me. Awesome. 1016 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,440 If you're still here, leave a like let us know in the comments 1017 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:26,440 section what you think. All the material that is again 1018 00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,560 has been writing on will be in the description as well. 1019 00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:30,520 So check that out and we'll see you in the next one.