1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,320 10% engineering. I expected a lot more engineers. 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,680 It really drives us to be efficient and productive, not 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:08,520 allowing everyone to choose their own database. 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,800 Not every technology should be incorporated in our products. 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,160 We have a four day work week, 3 days off the floor. 6 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,880 You're on the office. There's no room to discuss that. 7 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,160 This is what we're going to do. If you win the job in, if you 8 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,160 start over, I want to do Scrum and I have to introduce it 9 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,720 everywhere where I come. That's kind of a red flag. 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,720 You don't know what you're stepping into. 11 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,600 Engineering Culture is one of my favorite topics, and I'm 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,680 especially interested in how engineering can contribute to a 13 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,240 company and its success. That's exactly what we discussed 14 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,440 today. Joining me is Mikhil Ofrem, 15 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,600 Engineering Manager over at AFOS, and he shares what goes on 16 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,400 behind the scenes. The company that has millions of 17 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,640 revenue, thousands of customers, and a relatively small 18 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,800 engineering team, about 70 people, actually a lot less than 19 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,840 I expected. He shares what makes a team 20 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,600 successful, what great engineering looks like at Afos, 21 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,600 and what the mindset is of great engineers as well. 22 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:07,800 So enjoy. I did a bit of research into 23 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,280 AFOS specifically, and I was actually really surprised. 24 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,920 Like I know you and you and I spoke before the show, but then 25 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,720 I did my research and AFOS has hundreds of millions in revenue. 26 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,760 It has thousands of customers, about a little bit over 700 27 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,760 people, and 10% of that is engineering. 28 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,040 And from my outside perspective, I'm like, OK, software company, 29 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,120 software is bread and butter, but the staff is like 10% 30 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,960 engineering. I expected a lot more engineers. 31 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,560 Like I have no clue what you do with the engineers that you 32 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:36,400 have. How do you do what? 33 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,160 Yeah. That's really interesting 34 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,840 because at at on one side I'm always asking for more and we 35 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,000 should be bigger. Otherwise it really drives us to 36 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,680 be efficient and productive and make hard choices in what to 37 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,280 invest in what not. So one of the things that I 38 00:01:54,280 --> 00:02:00,760 think is fundamental to Afos core values is working in 39 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,560 standards. So what we've done over the past 40 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,520 years always is create standardised ways of creating 41 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,440 our software and focusing on that. 42 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,520 So not allowing everyone to choose their own database. 43 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,560 Not every technology should be incorporated in our products. 44 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,360 Let's focus on what we have and how we built and focus on the 45 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:22,960 value that we can deliver to customers. 46 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,280 Got you. I value freedom and autonomy. 47 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,320 Does that mean if I would work at office I would have less 48 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,760 freedom and autonomy on the technology side or? 49 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,800 And it's a really interesting question because what I've 50 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,080 experienced over the years is that there is freedom, but that 51 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,040 freedom comes with a responsibility and a balance in 52 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:50,120 learning how AFAS works, functions and where it gives 53 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,800 something extra. So we introduce new things like 54 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,840 a Securus architecture of a single page app framework. 55 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:05,720 We did that over the past, but always in such a way that we saw 56 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,960 the vision of, OK, this can be the next standardized thing that 57 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,760 we do. So let's invest and go that way 58 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,640 and see where it brings us, but then focus on it. 59 00:03:15,920 --> 00:03:19,240 So not every week a different framework or every year a new 60 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,520 architecture. Let's go for this one and see 61 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:27,280 how far it can brings us and apply it at as much places where 62 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:28,560 we can. Interesting. 63 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,840 And the standardization from your perspective is that what 64 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,320 really allows you to do more with a smaller team of 65 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:36,400 engineers? Yeah, yeah. 66 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,120 Because there are a lot of questions that you don't have to 67 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,600 ask and answer anymore. When new people arrive and we 68 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,080 introduce them to the frameworks that we have and we come up with 69 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,160 a new project to build a new surface, we can just say we have 70 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,000 a framework, we have a front end framework, we have a whole 71 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,160 deployment infrastructure. Let's go with this and then you 72 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,160 can focus on adding value, business logic and what does the 73 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,840 customer need and not on all the other aspects. 74 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,480 Does that also ensure that you have a certain type of engineer? 75 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,160 Because I in my career I've seen two types of engineers. 76 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,279 People that love software engineering for the craft, let 77 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,760 me build a rocket ship even though we don't really need a 78 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,160 rocket ship. And then people and I think I 79 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,360 see myself in there that I, I really don't want to build 80 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:25,800 anything complex if I don't have to. 81 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:27,320 Like for me, that's a wasted effort. 82 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,120 I want to understand how the business makes money. 83 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:33,080 What is my role in there so I can think along and software is 84 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:34,840 the way I execute? Yeah, Yeah. 85 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,200 I think that you're perfectly right. 86 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,560 And yeah, we see those two engineers within Alphas, the 87 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:46,320 more technical engineering, craftsmanship kind of people. 88 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,320 We have them also. We need them, but we put them to 89 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,600 work on the architecture, on the patterns, on the frameworks, on 90 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,880 the infrastructure part. And then we have the more 91 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,640 product engineers that like to build something that they can 92 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,040 see, that they can use, that they experience for themselves 93 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,120 and are involved with customers. And we put them in the product 94 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,480 teams. And of course, that creates a 95 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:17,680 kind of conflict kind of attention on a well, the product 96 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:22,240 engineers also like technology and how can we make our job 97 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,120 interesting. And on the other side, the more 98 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,320 technical people also have to be aligned with customers and 99 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:35,880 cannot go on their own and build Rocketship without any use for 100 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,720 it. But it really works those two 101 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:40,160 roles. Yeah. 102 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,200 So you need both. Yeah, from your perspective, 103 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:44,200 interesting. And they are not necessarily in 104 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,640 the same teams. They're actually sometimes more 105 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,040 focused with the rest of what they do. 106 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,720 Yeah. In general, we separate them in 107 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,480 teams, but there are teams where that's more of a mix. 108 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,720 But most often we have product teams that are more product 109 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,240 engineering and then we have the more technical teams that work 110 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,720 on back end frameworks and front end frameworks. 111 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,160 Got you. If I were to compare Afos and 112 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,840 still everything from my side is from an outsider's perspective. 113 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:12,400 But with somethinglikebull.com, I've had guests on and I know 114 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,000 they have thousands of engineers and their teams. 115 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,440 They are responsible of part of a bigger organization because if 116 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,680 you have 2000 engineers, you're not going to be end to end 117 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,680 responsible for any customer journey. 118 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,960 The end to end responsibility is going to be a slew of teams 119 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,520 back-to-back. And I'm wondering if you look at 120 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,800 your teams, how responsible are they or how are they set up in 121 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,600 the 1st place with regards to responsibility? 122 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,520 Well, they are not responsible end to end because there are 123 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,520 things that we separate out in platform teams like an 124 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,600 architectural team or maybe even an infrastructural team. 125 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:52,440 But they are really tied to the customer because also the 126 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:57,120 operation is relatively small. So they are really directly 127 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,800 influenced by the customer and its requirements. 128 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,160 So that gives them well really a sense and urgency of 129 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,600 responsibility. Although they aren't responsible 130 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,120 for everything, they feel like they are responsible and they 131 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,400 should drive the solution to its end. 132 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,640 Interesting. I didn't expect you to say they 133 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,880 might not actually be responsible, but because they're 134 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,480 so close to end users in the 1st place and customers, they do 135 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,280 feel that responsibility and I recognize that in what I had. 136 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,840 I don't think I've ever been end to end responsible. 137 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,520 I think it's very rare outside of startup environments. 138 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,320 I mean, if you talk about Alphas, hundreds of employees, 139 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,720 millions of revenue, thousands of customers to be end to end 140 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,040 responsible. But you can have that feeling 141 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,880 where you are responsible. And I feel like the way you do 142 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,600 that, the way you empower engineers specifically, can be 143 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,440 very motivational as well. Yeah, yeah. 144 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:53,240 We see that with in general, the more effective people are those 145 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,640 that feel responsible, although they aren't, but they will find 146 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,200 people that are responsible for a part that they need and they 147 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,000 will track them down, hunt them down and tell them what they 148 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:04,520 need and make sure that it happens. 149 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,280 Although they are kind of dependent on them and and the 150 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,200 other people might say, no, we don't going to do this. 151 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,880 We have don't have time, we don't have capacity, but they 152 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:17,800 still feel responsible and they'll fight for it. 153 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,600 Exactly. Yeah, your role in office has 154 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,600 evolved from hands on to more solution architect and our 155 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,160 engineering manager. Do you miss the more hands on 156 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,200 part or how much hands on are you in the first place? 157 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,200 I I kind of keep hands on by doing some side projects and 158 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,000 tooling and so I I hope that I'm not. 159 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:40,799 Too rusty? Not too rusty yet, I still have 160 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:44,560 a chance to to dive in some code, but it's less handsome. 161 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:49,120 But I do really like the overview of how components 162 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,800 interact with each other and that vision of how to align the 163 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,840 teams to work towards a certain goal. 164 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,680 So as you can imagine, we have well kind of a lot of legacy 165 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,920 code and things that came up 20 years ago and still are running 166 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,720 and how are we going to transform that into a new 167 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,160 architecture and a new platform. And those are always baby steps 168 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,520 and and evolve evolutions of what we have. 169 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,080 But I really like that challenge to getting people on board and 170 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,760 setting a goal and an innovation to work towards something. 171 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,040 What have you seen that makes teams? 172 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,920 Because my assumption is you're overseeing multiple teams as 173 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,800 well as a bigger picture of the organization, so you can see 174 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,720 teams that outperform others or are more effective in what they 175 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,120 do. What is that secret sauce within 176 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:36,520 a team that makes people effective? 177 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,640 I think the teams that are more effective than others are those 178 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:45,840 that have the responsibility for their solution, but also feel 179 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:51,320 the balance between where do we need to fight for new 180 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:56,360 technology, quality something more and where do we need to 181 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,920 fight to just get a deadline, get a product out to make sure 182 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,760 that people can use it because we have something to deliver. 183 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:09,600 And that sense of urgency. Responsibility is think I think 184 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,920 really important within Afos because it will always be 185 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,760 product number one. It'll always be product is 186 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,360 first, technology comes after that. 187 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:24,600 But we also understand and and know that the quality is 188 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,120 important. So if you only say product is 189 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:32,920 important, then you might losing quality in the long run. 190 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:36,480 So you have to have the sense of quality and how to do that. 191 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,840 But there are times that we need to rush and we need to make sure 192 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,720 that something happens to keep the customer satisfied. 193 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,600 Do you then see the technology also as your product? 194 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,000 Because you're saying product first. 195 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,080 Yeah, it might be kind of the platform and the features aspect 196 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,600 of things or from a listener's perspective, that's what I would 197 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,640 assume. But I've also said people where 198 00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:58,160 I want to work in a technology first environment, I ask a few 199 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,240 more questions, then it turns out that technology is basically 200 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,760 the product. I, I, I think and I hope that in 201 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,240 the platform teams, we do make sure that they understand that 202 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,640 indeed what they're building is a product for the other teams 203 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,680 and they need to support it and make sure that things happen. 204 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,400 But it's harder to keep that in mind. 205 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,560 Yeah, you can see that. How do you motivate people when 206 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:23,480 it comes to working within a team? 207 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:25,560 They are not part of a cock, right? 208 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:28,560 They're actually having quite a lot of responsibility within 209 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:31,200 that team specifically. I don't know anything about team 210 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,880 sizes, but I do know a little bit of people management 211 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,360 experience that I've had. And it's very hard to motivate 212 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,840 people if they are either not in their place or they have a lack 213 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,320 of clarity or anything with regards to that. 214 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,680 I think from a a product perspective, we always try to 215 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:49,720 make sure that people know what we're building for, who we are 216 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,680 we are building and what the end goal is. 217 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,320 So we do that with a lot of customer stories, taking them in 218 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,160 and bringing them in and showing what we're doing and why we're 219 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,200 doing that. Do they do that only from the 220 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,400 product side or are you, for example from engineering all 221 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:04,960 sources? No, we. 222 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,680 Try to do that for everyone. So also, if you're in a platform 223 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:11,480 team, you still need to hear what the customers are doing and 224 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,240 why we are doing it. So since next week we have our 225 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:19,760 internal conference dev days and we always make sure that we 226 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,120 visit companies if we do that and every, every engineer has to 227 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,640 join. Even if you're a platform team, 228 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,120 you will visit the customer and see what they're doing. 229 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,160 And for instance, every month we have our quarterly meetings or 230 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,560 our monthly meetings numbers and stuff like that. 231 00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:38,760 But we also bring in a lot of user and customer stories to 232 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,960 show what they're doing with the software, how the how do they 233 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,600 experience it to show why are we building this product. 234 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,080 How hard is it for you to set that up? 235 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,160 Because I can assume that a lot of listeners don't have any 236 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,320 numbers for their for their company, don't really talk to 237 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,960 customers or don't really go off site to actually see what's 238 00:12:57,960 --> 00:12:59,400 happening with the software they're building. 239 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:02,960 For instance, a department it's really easy because the monthly 240 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,960 meeting for instance, that's a company wide, yeah. 241 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,480 So the CEO and CFO and the other directors bring in customer 242 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,240 stories. So we don't even really have to 243 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,720 organize that because they already will do that and they 244 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,600 know and then we'll hear stories from consultants and sales and 245 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,200 so on. And often engineering is like, 246 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,680 oh, here we go again. But it's really important that 247 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:24,520 they hear, hear the stories from customers. 248 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,640 So that's something that's already been solved by company 249 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,720 wide. So for instance, the dev days, 250 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,760 that's really a thing that we have to organise. 251 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,200 We have to find customers and see where we can go on visit. 252 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,840 But in general, our customers are very open and willing to to 253 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:42,680 tell and show what they're doing. 254 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,880 Yeah, interesting. When it comes to then hiring, 255 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,320 getting new people into Afos you mentioned, there's always a lot 256 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,800 of things to do. We can grow probably faster, but 257 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,800 it is still a team of 70 people. Are you planning on hiring a lot 258 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,880 more or is it actually in a in a good sweet spot as it is right 259 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,840 now? I, I think we're in the future, 260 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,680 we will, we will keep on hiring, but it's not something that we 261 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:09,680 want to grow from 70 to 90 to 110 in, in, in steps like that. 262 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,520 But we have a continuous flow of hiring that we are doing on the 263 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,920 other. On one end, of course, to make 264 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:22,520 sure that people that are going away to, we have to keep up and 265 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,800 otherwise we want to grow, but we do it on on the kind of 266 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:26,840 steady level. Yeah. 267 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,320 And what do you look for in engineers that you are hiring 268 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,200 with regards to the qualities you mentioned a certain sense of 269 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,520 urgency and feeling of responsibility. 270 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:37,920 What, for example, on the technical side are you looking 271 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:39,840 for? I think on the technical side, 272 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,200 we're of course you're looking for the things that we are using 273 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,520 OS somebody hasexperiencewith.net or C# or 274 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,000 something like that. But I think the more important 275 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,360 one is do you have a passion for the craftsmanship? 276 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,440 Do you like what what you're doing? 277 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,320 Do you want to build stuff? Do you want to keep on learning? 278 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,440 I think learning is a really important thing because well, 279 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,320 our job is so much in flux and there is always new stuff. 280 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,560 So you want people that are open to learning and are eager to 281 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,760 learn. And I think that's more 282 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,720 important than do you know C# because if you want to learn, C# 283 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,080 is no problem. So I think on the engineering 284 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,960 side, learning is key, the passion and learning and 285 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,120 otherwise on the more product side, we are always looking for 286 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,040 people that are understand that we're building a product and 287 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,080 that we do it for customers and that for another a Research 288 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,040 Institute. We are not a a tech company in 289 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,280 that sense that we just want to build tech for the tech. 290 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,720 We want to build a product and you have to understand that that 291 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,680 drives decisions that we make. Let's start with the technical 292 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,200 side. You mentioned a passion for the 293 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:45,880 craft and a hunger for knowledge. 294 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,960 If I'm interviewing and you're across from me, how, how do you 295 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,840 see that I have that? Well, we're always looking for 296 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,000 do you have side projects? That's one indicator. 297 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,320 Do you read? Do you listen to podcasts? 298 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:07,160 Do you do you few movies that kind of stuff and do you talk 299 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,000 about that, that you're learning a goal on the side or that 300 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,160 you're involved with Rust or something like that and might 301 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,840 not even be interesting for us, but the fact that you mentioned 302 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,440 that you're doing that, that's really a good indicator. 303 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,560 Yeah, I can see that. The side projects are something 304 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,200 that I think throughout episodes are something that people have 305 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,880 noted. Find a passion doesn't 306 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:30,720 necessarily matter what it is, right? 307 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,600 It could be sports, anime, movies, crafts, whatever. 308 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,200 And create a site project out of that because that's something 309 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,000 tangible that you can show that you've done. 310 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,040 And although you don't have potentially any production 311 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,040 experience in the company you're applying for by virtue of having 312 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,560 done that step. I also see people that interview 313 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,600 and that say, I think this is a good opportunity for me. 314 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,720 And when I come in, I'm going to do XY and Z, but then they 315 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,120 haven't actually started yet. So then I'm like, this is kind 316 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,640 of a weird conversation here because I just have to trust 317 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,400 you. Indeed, if you want to have that 318 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,680 opportunity, start the show that you're doing that. 319 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,680 Exactly. And then what on the product 320 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,920 side makes you think people are really good for specifically a 321 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,839 product engineering role? So one of the things that is 322 00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:14,359 kind of a an indicator that you're not a fit is if you win a 323 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,079 job and if you start over, oh, and I want to do scrum and I 324 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:22,720 have to introduce it or, or I do this XYC at this company and I 325 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,359 have to introduce it everywhere where I come. 326 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,640 That's kind of a red flag. And I'm thinking why you don't 327 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,880 know what you're stepping into and you have first have to learn 328 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,840 before you can start with doing suggestions and stuff like that. 329 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,480 So understanding that we are that we have customers and that 330 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,280 we have deadlines and that you have to sometimes work against 331 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,800 the deadline, that's really important, yeah. 332 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,480 Can you share a little bit more about the inner operations of a 333 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,040 team with regards to the way of working? 334 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,560 So how big is a team? How do they work, how they 335 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,640 operate? Do they demo every other week 336 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,880 or? So what we for the, the bigger 337 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,480 project, project that we have, we have 2 releases in a year. 338 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,480 So that's kind of conservative you could say. 339 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,400 We have a general planning for those versions that start with 340 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,200 product management, with market research, customer requirements, 341 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,360 stuff like that. Then there follows a list of 342 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,240 projects, features that we want to build. 343 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,240 Those are dropped into the right teams. 344 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:30,840 A-Team can generally be quite large, like 15 people, but in 345 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,360 general those are also. Then we are split in sub teams 346 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,720 where a project can be done by 1 developer and one designer in 347 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,960 the list, maybe 2 developers if one is more junior than the 348 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,800 other one. So the projects themselves are 349 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,120 built with relatively few developers, but they're part of 350 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,280 a larger team. So they can ask, always ask for 351 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,440 guidance or help from other people that also know their 352 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,320 specific components and set of features. 353 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,120 But they developed them in their own. 354 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:09,720 And in general, they start demoing when they're almost 355 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,360 done. And most teams don't really work 356 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,640 with iterations. So some teams have weekly 357 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,440 meetings to keep on track, other ones do that biweekly. 358 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,320 That's kind of team specific. OK. 359 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,040 And they also have the autonomy to decide what works for them 360 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:27,880 within that team. Yeah, interesting. 361 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,360 What I've seen in many organizations that have been in 362 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,560 Scrum is like bread and butter. If you're not doing Scrum, 363 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,720 you're trying to do Scrum. And then the engineers, because 364 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,920 it's not really Scrum, they're like, yeah, we're kind of agile. 365 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,360 And there's this negativity around it. 366 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,240 And I'm quite surprised that you're saying teams are 367 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,240 autonomous. They do whatever works for them. 368 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,960 We have a big team. Like if you're looking at agile 369 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,040 and like that's the the stretch of the maximum size of team 370 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,560 people within a team and then they have sub teams and they 371 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,640 execute and that's it. It sounds quite simple. 372 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,040 Yeah, I think we try to keep it really simple. 373 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,160 So we've experimented with Scrum. 374 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,800 We also have people in the teams that really like Scrum and want 375 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,320 us to do do that. But what we've learned is that 376 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,840 there's a lot of ceremony that really doesn't fit what we're 377 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,120 doing. So for instance, the whole we 378 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:20,400 have two versions in a year. Well then that your Sprint 379 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,560 planning. It's kind of limited because you 380 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,400 already know what you're doing for this version. 381 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,480 So the Sprint planning is then only a follow up in meeting to 382 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,880 show that we're on track, that we're doing the right things, 383 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,960 but we already know what we're doing. 384 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,720 So we try to do that in that sense. 385 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,840 So it's kind of agile within that road map, but we don't 386 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:44,680 really like the ceremony before that. 387 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,560 And also the daily stand ups. Well, we've learned that doing a 388 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,520 daily stand up with 15 people is not really useful because you 389 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,600 get a lot of chatter and it always takes longer and there's 390 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,520 really not much information in in that sense. 391 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,840 So what we try to do is enforce people that work together on one 392 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,680 project. Do the stand up with you, do it 393 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,840 with three, do it with two. And then you don't really need a 394 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,560 stand up because you're sitting next to each other. 395 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,320 So just turn your chair, tell what you're doing, ask what the 396 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,440 other one is doing, and go work. Interesting, like I've seen 397 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,640 companies try and look online with what what type of 398 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,600 information is out there and then try and beat that 399 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,880 organization, but they completely mismatch in the 400 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,160 context for me, very mature organizations, they know who 401 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:32,440 they are. Like the fact that you're 402 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,760 saying, OK, we have twice a year releases, you can have an 403 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,440 opinion on that, but that that's it. 404 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,240 That's what we have and then your other ways of working kind 405 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,760 of orchestrate and they tailor towards that and it shows 406 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,120 maturity to know who you are and this is what we have and but 407 00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:50,160 probably that has evolved organically as well. 408 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,960 That has evolved, yeah. And it, it's also, it could be 409 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,880 a, a, a danger because we're stuck within what we're doing. 410 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:03,480 So we try to experiment and the teams kind of walk out of that 411 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,760 structure sometimes just to experience. 412 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,200 What does it do? Does it help us? 413 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,400 So some people are working with more structured daily standups, 414 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,800 but then it kind of dissolves after a while. 415 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,000 Some teams do retrospectives, but they don't do them once 416 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,680 every four weeks or something like that. 417 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,480 But it's really dependent on the team. 418 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,680 So we're trying to get some flexibility in the team, but 419 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,200 limit the the get the structure through the road map and the the 420 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,040 planning of the team, the projects. 421 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,520 Yeah, I mean, you've been at Alphos, It's it's going to be 422 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,240 close to 15 years, right? And you've seen a lot. 423 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,640 Then for me, what my assumption is, is if you have an 424 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,520 organization that's growing and it's growing organically, I've 425 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,280 also seen organizations crash and burn. 426 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,120 And typically it's because leadership either didn't 427 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:56,800 understand their business or they tried something, it failed 428 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,440 and they didn't want to take ownership and it just spirals 429 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,360 and cost fallacy, etcetera, etcetera. 430 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,080 Is that also how you see it? Has the organization become what 431 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,800 it is due to a strong leadership? 432 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,280 Yeah, I think the the strong leadership within office is 433 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,960 really one of the causes for the growth and the steady growth of 434 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,040 of the organization. How, how do people see that? 435 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,920 And then especially from an engineering side, how can they 436 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,480 see that OK, our, our leadership's actually capable in 437 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,440 what they do. We have trust in them. 438 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,480 So we're going the right way. I think what what Arvos has 439 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,960 shown is that the leadership is willing to make decisions and go 440 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,280 for it. And it's kind of a really 441 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,160 interesting paradoxical situation where there's a lot of 442 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,800 freedom and it looks really well, it's family owned and, 443 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,960 and, and kind of go see and but on the other hand, there's a 444 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,960 strong leadership that tells how we work and how we're going to 445 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,760 do it. So for instance, we have a a 446 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,160 four day work week and with that they've said three days off the 447 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,160 floor, you're on the office, there's no working from home, 448 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,880 there's one day that you can work from home and that's it. 449 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:08,800 So there's really a strong leadership in we think that this 450 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,480 works. So we're going for it and there 451 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,760 is no room to discuss that. This is what we're going to do. 452 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,600 Yeah, this is it. No, OK, this four day work week, 453 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,840 I actually saw an article, I think it was like yesterday. 454 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,680 Talk to me about that. Is it actually people get paid 455 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,640 five days a week, They work four days a week is as simple. 456 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,080 As that, yeah, that's exactly what it is. 457 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,000 That's not bad. Yeah, that's a pretty good perk. 458 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,440 Yeah, it is. And how long have you been doing 459 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,720 that? Since January this year, so it's 460 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:34,800 actually the first year that we're doing this. 461 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,520 Gotcha. Any statistics or measurements? 462 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,200 Any upside for people listening? Yeah, well, the upside is the 463 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:46,400 day off that really gives you a lot of freedom around. 464 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,520 And so we call it induction Entreklebach, a self development 465 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,720 day, you could say. So it's we try to bring it not 466 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,800 as a free day, but as a self development day. 467 00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,840 Well, people can do with it what they want. 468 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:05,440 They can Netflix, they can go do sports, do be with a family, but 469 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,880 they can also take part of the day to listen to podcasts, read 470 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,640 articles, read a book, develop yourself in your craftsmanship, 471 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,560 in whatever you want to be. And that really gives you a lot 472 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,280 of freedom. Because before that was stuff 473 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,000 that you had to do in the evening on Saturday, Sunday, but 474 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,880 then you're also with your family and then you also have 475 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,680 your other stuff to do. And now you have a whole day to 476 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,840 kind of mix. That gotcha. 477 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,560 And from your side, you don't have any expectations on what 478 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,840 people do on those? Days, No. 479 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,520 There's one expectation and that is when the customer calls and 480 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,680 there is shit hitting the fan, then we have to do something. 481 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,080 Be on the ball, yeah, OK. So for instance, what we do is 482 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,920 if you fix a bug and you want to release it on Thursday evening, 483 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,920 that's fine, but then on Friday you're the one that I call. 484 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,320 You're there. Yeah, exactly. 485 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,000 I like that a lot. Where I've seen things go into a 486 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,400 wrong direction is where there is indeed announced you can do 487 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,320 whatever and the people have certain expectations on that 488 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:04,960 day. And then the people that 489 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,920 actually have that, they're like, whoa, this is this wasn't 490 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,720 part of the deal, right? Because you're saying it's free. 491 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,960 And then all of a sudden I have to do things according to your 492 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,760 expectation. And, and it's, it's something 493 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,920 that we are evolving in this year. 494 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,440 It's really searching how are we going to use this day. 495 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,560 But I can say from my perspective that there is a, 496 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,480 there hasn't been a lot of priorities that that needs to be 497 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,480 fixed and people are willing to do something on their own. 498 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,480 So sometimes there is something they're working on and they want 499 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,360 to dive into something and they have the room to do that on 500 00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:38,200 Friday without discussing, oh, is this the right thing to do 501 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,960 right now? Or are there more urgent stuff 502 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,040 to do If the freedom to just dive in it, experience, 503 00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,960 experiment, come up with solutions that we might have not 504 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,560 thought about, stuff like that? Gotcha. 505 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:51,960 Yeah. As a last thought, I was 506 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,000 wondering, there's a lot of tooling nowadays, especially 507 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,760 with AI. How have people kind of embraced 508 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,440 tooling or how do you distribute and make available certain tools 509 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,280 for people to experiment with? So we we are a Microsoft shop, 510 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,120 so we have Visual Studio, the the old DevOps suite and so on. 511 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,800 And I think last year we started using Copilot. 512 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:18,920 So everyone has a Copilot license and we try to organise 513 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,600 knowledge sharing hackathons to get people involved with 514 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,840 Copilot. So you can you see that there 515 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,000 are people that are just curious and want to experiment and and 516 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,280 go all in. And there are people that think 517 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,400 it's a tool, it doesn't really match how I work. 518 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,560 So they don't really use it. And those are the people that we 519 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,760 try to inspire by giving examples, by organizing A 520 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,640 hackathon or knowledge sharing to get them on board. 521 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:49,080 Scotch everything revolves kind of around sharing your 522 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,320 learnings. I feel like to make other people 523 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,880 excited and people that have a passion for this thing, they 524 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,320 would also love sharing. Look at this cool thing that 525 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,920 this thing does, or we've tried this thing and this is how it 526 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,720 works and this is actually what it's really bad at. 527 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,600 So we dropped this. I've seen that go organically, 528 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,880 but especially when it's organized and orchestrated, it's 529 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,560 very powerful. Yeah, exactly that. 530 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,880 Yeah, as a last piece of advice, there's many engineers 531 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,840 listening. They want to grow as fast as 532 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,160 possible, either in their career or in their craft. 533 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,920 Is there a piece of advice you want to give them to kind of 534 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,120 close off the episode? I would advise you to stay close 535 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:24,120 to what you like and what your passion is and just dive in as 536 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:28,160 deep as you can. Just put your energy into what 537 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,240 you like and what your passion is and that will be picked up by 538 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,040 people around you and that will give you opportunities that you 539 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,280 didn't thought about that helped you grow. 540 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,000 Awesome. Thanks so much man. 541 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:41,480 Welcome. Awesome. 542 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,960 We're going to round it off. If you're here with us, let us 543 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,400 know in the comments section what you've thought of this 544 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,440 episode, and otherwise we'll see you in the next one.