1 00:00:08,070 --> 00:00:10,510 Welcome to the Marine Biologist podcast. 2 00:00:10,670 --> 00:00:14,190 Join us to discover the latest ocean topics from leading marine 3 00:00:14,190 --> 00:00:17,750 scientists and conservationists. The podcast accompanies The 4 00:00:17,750 --> 00:00:21,230 Marine Biologist, the magazine for members of the Marine 5 00:00:21,230 --> 00:00:25,630 Biological Association, and is presented by the editor, Guy 6 00:00:25,630 --> 00:00:28,470 Baker. We hope you enjoy this episode. 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,320 Today we're going to be talking about marine conservation and 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,880 the power that communities can bring to protecting special 9 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,560 areas of the sea. We're delighted to welcome 10 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,760 Doctor Bryce Stewart, Senior Research Fellow at the MBA and 11 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,920 Associate Professor at the University of Plymouth, who 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,440 wrote in the Marine Biologist magazine about the marine 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,040 protected areas around the Isle of Arran on the West Coast of 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,920 Scotland. Hello, Bryce, Welcome to the 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,280 Marine Biologist Podcast. Hi, Guy. 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,160 Yeah, thanks very much. Great to be here, Ed. 17 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,280 So let's launch straight in some questions. 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,560 What three things should we know about you? 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,000 Wow, OK, some 3 interesting things. 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,280 So when I was young I wanted to be a professional holiday man 21 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,640 according to my dad, but he told me to be a marine biologist 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,960 instead, which is not quite the same thing, but just 23 00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:26,000 occasionally. As a marine biologist, I feel 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,400 like I'm on holiday in some nice tropical place, you know, 25 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,880 snorkelling on the beach. Another thing, I guess, which is 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,360 a bit unusual. I grew up in Papua New Guinea 27 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,800 and I still have a pretty good handle on the language there. 28 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,400 Top Pisson. So Mipolay got good palace savvy 29 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,480 long or to get to something belongs Solwara, which basically 30 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,200 means I know a lot about what's in the ocean. 31 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,080 So I'm a marine biologist. And then I guess the other thing 32 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:59,680 is I, I'm well known for my sort of interest in scallops and my 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,800 work on scallops. But if I had to choose, I'd, I'd 34 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,400 say probably my biggest, the biggest thing I'm a fan of is 35 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:08,479 cricket. Actually. 36 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:11,080 I'm a huge cricket fan. So I have been, I'm not very 37 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:12,520 good. I tried to be a good cricket 38 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,000 player, but I wasn't. But yes, my my interest in 39 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,320 marine biology and in cricket sort of compete with each other 40 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,160 a little bit. That's great, a good rounded 41 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,080 character. You've given us some clues, but 42 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,720 tell us how you became involved in marine science and what your 43 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,600 research area is. Yeah, so I guess those things 44 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,120 that I've told you about, apart from the cricket, are related. 45 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,880 So, yeah, I grew up originally when I was young in Australia 46 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,040 and, and like most Aussies, we spent a lot of time on beach 47 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,880 holidays and, and then we moved to Papua New Guinea when I was 8 48 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,760 years old and I was there until I was 17. 49 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,560 And I think that really sealed the deal because where we lived 50 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,400 there were coral reefs nearby. So from 8 years old I was 51 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,600 snorkelling on these amazing coral reefs and then you know, I 52 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,480 learnt to scuba dive when I was a little bit older than that. 53 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,480 I also have always loved going fishing as well and I think 54 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:11,240 that's part of it. So that interest in both what's 55 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,640 under the water but also interest in fishing at at the 56 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:18,480 same time is kind of shaped the way my career's developed. 57 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,360 So I studied an undergraduate degree back in Australia at the 58 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,200 University of Melbourne, just in zoology. 59 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,640 I worked for a couple of years for the Victorian Government 60 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,240 fisheries department and then I did my PhD up in Queensland at 61 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,720 James Cook University on the Great Barrier Reef. 62 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:43,120 And really from there, Yeah, this joint interest in in fish 63 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,600 populations, fish communities, how they work, the need for 64 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,040 conservation, but also this interest in fishing and 65 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,080 recognising it as a very important food source, but also 66 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,000 part of history and culture, lead my research to sort of 67 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,920 really focus on how do we balance those two things? 68 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,120 How do we supply seafood to the world's population and maintain 69 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,320 fishing communities while also looking after the marine 70 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,160 environment? Your article in the Marine 71 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,280 Biologist magazine is about the Isle of Arran and showing that 72 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,079 marine conservation begins at home. 73 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,640 Can you bring us up to speed on why Arran has become a focus for 74 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,240 marine conservation? Yes, it's, it's quite a long and 75 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,680 interesting story, but I'll try and sort of just give you the 76 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,280 highlights. So the Isle of Arran on the West 77 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:33,960 Coast, Scotland is in the first of Clyde, which naturally is an 78 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,280 extremely productive marine area and and once supported some of 79 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:40,880 the most productive fisheries in the whole of Europe. 80 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:46,280 But because of a combination of sort of changes in legislation 81 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:49,800 and poor management, those fisheries really started to 82 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,640 decline, particularly in in the latter part of last century. 83 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:58,760 And and one of the things that happened along the way was that 84 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,840 the inshore area from sort of the coast of three miles off in 85 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:07,600 the 1980s that was opened up to trawling, bottom trawling. 86 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,920 And until then, it had still been relatively healthy. 87 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,840 But two local scuba divers, Howard Wood and Don Mcneish, saw 88 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:19,480 this, you know, in front of their eyes. 89 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,640 They saw the change that this created it it, They saw the loss 90 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,560 of biodiversity on the seabed. They saw the decline in fish 91 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,320 populations. And, you know, they're not, they 92 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,440 weren't marine biologists or scientists. 93 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,800 Howard ran a, a garden centre. John Don's an engineer. 94 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,080 But they were very concerned about this change in their local 95 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,680 environment. So in the early 90s, following a 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,640 holiday in New Zealand that Don had been on, where he'd heard 97 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,520 about these things called marine reserves, came back and said to 98 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,080 his mate Howard, we need one of these on the Isle of Arran. 99 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,520 We need to have an area that's protected from fishing to see 100 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:03,880 how it can recover. And then Fast forward 13 years, 101 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,400 which is what it took for that to actually happen, they finally 102 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,240 got the Lamblash Bay no take zone. 103 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,400 It's a very small area, it's only about 2.8 square 104 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,640 kilometres, but it's, it's no fishing. 105 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:21,600 And it's the, it was the first one of these in Arran in 106 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,400 Scotland, sorry. And still the only one. 107 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:29,360 And what was really key to making that happen was engaging 108 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,160 the local community. So Howard and Don formed what's 109 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,720 now known as Coast, the community of Arran Seabed Trust, 110 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,560 which was, you know, is made-up of a load of members from Aaron 111 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,680 and and some from further afield who support this idea of looking 112 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:51,000 after your marine environment. And from that, that early stage, 113 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,880 it's really gone from strength to strength. 114 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:58,600 So they they originally got that no take zone in 2008 and then on 115 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,200 the back of the sort of really quite rapid recovery of that in 116 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,640 the first few years and some changes in UK legislation, they 117 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,480 were then able to campaign for a much bigger marine protected 118 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,600 area around the South of the island, the South Aron MPA. 119 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,840 Now that doesn't, that's not a no take zone. 120 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,800 It allows some low impact fishing. 121 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:27,920 But again, all of these these measures, these these different 122 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,720 types of approaches to sort of conserving and managing the 123 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,320 marine environment and the engagement of the local 124 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,680 community have have kind of made it famous to be honest. 125 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,760 So maybe some examples of that is that Howard, who was one of 126 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:47,120 the founders, won the Goldman Environmental Prize back about 127 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,840 10 years ago, which not many people may have heard of, but 128 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,680 it's considered to be the biggest prize in the world for 129 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,280 grassroots conservation. So he was invited to America, 130 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,280 went on a big tour, was, you know, set set to meet the 131 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,400 President Obama at the time. Unfortunately he got called out 132 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,400 on some urgent business, but he still went, he went to the White 133 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,800 House and, and not long after that Howard was also aborted an 134 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,440 OBE. So yeah, it it's become this 135 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,280 focus, this example of what you can do at a small scale if you 136 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,600 have support from the local people. 137 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,880 Yeah, we protect areas of the sea so that nature has a chance 138 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,320 to regenerate. And as we saw in David 139 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,720 Attenborough's new film Ocean, the seabed is particularly 140 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:37,640 important. Why is this? 141 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,320 Yeah. So the seabed plays a lot of 142 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,240 different roles, I guess. I mean, one of the key things to 143 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:49,360 know is that, you know, anything that goes into the ocean, pretty 144 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,560 much anything, it sinks and it ends up on the seabed. 145 00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:56,120 So that's where a lot of the nutrients, but also 146 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,600 unfortunately, increasingly things like litter end up. 147 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:04,440 But in terms of the seabed for ecosystem function, yes, it 148 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:09,640 recycles nutrients, but it also, and it stores away carbon as 149 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,440 well as we hear in the film. But I guess probably most 150 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,320 significantly for marine life in the ocean is that it it, it 151 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,960 supports this incredible array of biodiversity. 152 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:25,720 So lots of species live in and on the on the seabed, but a lot 153 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,120 of those species actually create habitat. 154 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,440 So we can think about things like seagrass or kelp or 155 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:37,760 obviously coral reefs as well, and they grow on the seabed and 156 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,520 then they provide this 3 dimensional structure which acts 157 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,920 sometimes as food but also as shelter, particularly for small, 158 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,920 you know, fish and shellfish and other species like that. 159 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,440 So a healthy seabed is actually really important for 160 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,720 biodiversity in general. And my connection to what's 161 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,840 happened on Aaron in particular is that I was lucky enough to 162 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:09,000 meet Howard and on 20 years ago. We had a workshop at the time in 163 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,880 2003 that was designed to bring together everyone in the UK who 164 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,320 worked on Marine protected areas at that time. 165 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,920 And there were nineteen of us. That was it. 166 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,080 I think if you did that workshop again now there'll be over 1000 167 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,800 for sure, but it was early days then. 168 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,520 And through that initial meeting, I supported their 169 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,320 campaign for this Lamblash Bay no take zone with with the 170 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,280 science when I could, but then also soon after it was 171 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,800 designated, Howard said to me, no one's really monitoring 172 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,560 what's going on, what's recovering. 173 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,640 And so we started off on a small scale. 174 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:52,080 One of my masters students at the time, Lee Howarth, went up 175 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,640 and did the very first sort of detailed surveys on the sea 176 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,400 floor of the Lamblash Bay no take zone and then of the areas 177 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,160 around it to look at how recovery was happening. 178 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,200 And like I say, it was already, even after 18 months, the area 179 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,400 was recovering. And then since then we've just 180 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,720 expanded that monitoring programme. 181 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,680 So I've had, you know, I think over 20 different students and 182 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:20,600 other people involved in the 15 years since then. 183 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,280 And we've really expanded our methods as well. 184 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,720 So it's predominantly based on doing scuba diving surveys of 185 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,760 the seabed, but we've got more sophisticated. 186 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,480 So we started to take, you know, high resolution images, both 187 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:38,520 stills and videos. We've used sonar, we've started 188 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,840 to use crab and lobster pots to monitor what's going on with 189 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,640 those species. We've used baited underwater 190 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,880 video cameras and even been a little bit of Edna work done as 191 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,720 well. That's great. 192 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:55,160 And I'm looking at the image in the article you wrote in the 193 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,520 magazine. It was that beautiful seabed 194 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,280 alive with briar zones and sea squirts and scallops and that 195 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,520 big pink sun star starfish. Do you know if that was that an 196 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,040 area that was previously dredged? 197 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,240 Yeah, it was actually. So pretty much all of both the 198 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,080 no take zone and the marine protected area were dredged. 199 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,600 Not not the areas just right in close to the shore obviously, 200 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,800 but but the vast majority, it was all open to dredging. 201 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,920 There was no restriction on it. So the only restrictions were 202 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,280 just based on the depths and and the habitat. 203 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,320 And I guess, you know, fishermen do generally only dredge where 204 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:33,560 they think they'll catch scallops. 205 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,680 But yeah, that area was dredged. And this is something that we'd 206 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:41,960 really seen over time is this incredible recovery of of the 207 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,560 seabed in the absence of these sort of bottom toed fishing 208 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:49,760 gears. So we actually have wasn't done 209 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:54,400 by me, by my team, but before the area, the Lamblash Bay no 210 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,960 take zone was created, there was some side scan sonar imaging 211 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,840 done. And it genuinely does look like 212 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,960 a ploughed field. So you can see, you know, dozens 213 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,480 of tracks across it in this big area. 214 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,800 And so it really was in a pretty poor state at that point. 215 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,440 And so now to see how it's recovered, it's quite 216 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,240 remarkable. But it's what's also interesting 217 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:22,560 is we're just starting to get a better idea of how ecosystems 218 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:26,120 function naturally. So some things have gone up 219 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,040 pretty steadily. So the King scallops in 220 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,880 particular, there's a lot of variability on the seabed. 221 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,840 Some places have a lot, some not so much. 222 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,800 But in general the numbers have gone up. 223 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,920 But other things come and go, you know, and, and understanding 224 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,000 the dynamics of a of a relatively natural and healthy 225 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,640 ecosystem is really important for just for understanding how 226 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,960 ecosystems work and therefore understanding better about how 227 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:58,120 to conserve and manage them. Yeah, you made that point really 228 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:04,000 well about how things vary in, I guess, over time and from season 229 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,200 to season. And David Attenborough in the 230 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,640 film Ocean was at pains to say that conservation wasn't to the 231 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,880 exclusion of fishing, and fishing and conservation should 232 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,520 be the two things that can thrive side by side. 233 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:24,240 And how did you work with with fishermen around the the MPA and 234 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,360 the MPA's around Aaron? Yeah, that's a really good 235 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,720 point. And I think we've been able to 236 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,040 do that both on Aaron and where I used to previously work on the 237 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:38,280 Isle of Man is we actually engage the local fishing 238 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,160 community. We talked to them about their 239 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,560 views, but I think most importantly we work directly 240 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,280 with them. So we chartered their boats to 241 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,040 do the survey work, to do the scientific work. 242 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,280 And that just sort of changes the platform. 243 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,160 I think because you work alongside each other, you get to 244 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,200 know each other. You have a lot of time to have 245 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:04,440 conversations and, you know, to try and better understand each 246 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,760 other's perspectives. And what you tend to see is 247 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,240 that, you know, a sort of bit of give and take on both sides. 248 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,040 It just naturally evolves and but also a bit of respect. 249 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:22,160 And so, you know, on the Isle of Aaron, sorry, the Isle of Man 250 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,080 where I worked before, we, we did that with scallop dredgers 251 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,360 and they voluntarily started to create protected areas. 252 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,600 It's not always that easy. Not everybody's a fan. 253 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:38,160 But what happened on Aaron was we have this no take zone, which 254 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,040 is very small, right? I mean, it doesn't really affect 255 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,560 the local fisheries very much, but we have strong evidence that 256 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,960 that spillover like you see in the ocean film both from 257 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,480 animals. We know lobsters are moving in 258 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:52,920 and out of it. We tag them. 259 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,720 We know this is happening for sure. 260 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,200 We know there's high levels of breeding, particularly of 261 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,360 lobsters and scallops and that those larvae, those young 262 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,080 individuals are spreading out around the the surrounding area. 263 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:11,240 But what also was done on Aaron was to create spaces for 264 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,520 different types of fishing to exist. 265 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,280 So most of the South Aran Marine Protect area is open to fishing, 266 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,520 you know, 90, more than 95% of it. 267 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,520 And but it's open predominantly to low impact fishing. 268 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,720 So this is either diving for scallops, which is something 269 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,840 that's actually taken off in the area over the past few years. 270 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,400 And crab and lobster fishermen still, again, are allowed to 271 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,680 operate pretty much as they were. 272 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,760 There's on the very edges of this area, there's a little bit 273 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,560 of prawn trawling allowed with, you know, certain restrictions. 274 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,760 There's no scallop dredging allowed anywhere in that area 275 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,200 because that was considered to be incompatible with the 276 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,480 habitat. But yeah, the vast majority of 277 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,120 the area's still open to fishing and, and open to a lot of 278 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:03,680 different types of fishing as well. 279 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,920 And so if you go there, you know, particularly in summer, 280 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:08,920 you'll, you'll see quite a few fishing boats. 281 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,960 And what's really great is to know that's going on, but to be 282 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,280 monitoring the area and to see that it's becoming healthier and 283 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,240 healthier over the same time period. 284 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,800 So you've actually seen what's in the ocean field, you've seen 285 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,960 fisheries improving and the marine environment improving 286 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,080 because of this more nuanced approach to management. 287 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,200 Do you find that fishermen have knowledge that you can use in 288 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,120 your science? Oh, yeah, absolutely. 289 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:41,640 Like that's fundamental. And I find that in a lot of the 290 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,600 science that I do on Aaron, it was really crucial, particularly 291 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,400 when we were working out how to monitor the lobster population 292 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,280 because lobsters have very specific habitat requirements, 293 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,000 right? They don't just occur anywhere. 294 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,720 They need kind of rocky substrate on the seabed. 295 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,240 They, they like to be in, in crevices and in little holes and 296 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,920 things like that. And so when we were setting up 297 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,640 the monitoring programme for that, we worked just directly 298 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,040 with the local fishermen to say, where did you used to fish when 299 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,240 this area was open? And so, you know, it turns out 300 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,240 that was actually only about 10% of the area. 301 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,280 And so that's where we did the surveys and, and we as an 302 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,280 exercise, we tried fishing in other random places. 303 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,520 Oh, we caught nothing, right. So this guy knew what was going 304 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:34,840 on. They've been fishing there for 305 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,800 20 plus years. And so that was really 306 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,760 fundamental. But I think the other thing, the 307 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,280 great thing about working with fishermen is, you know, often 308 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,000 they have a long term perspective on how things have 309 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,760 changed. You know, this is a separate 310 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,440 project I'm working on down here in the Southwest on, on Pollock. 311 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,880 And, you know, we're we're interviewed fishermen with over 312 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,840 40 years of experience, so they can tell you about how things 313 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,480 have changed over that that long period of time. 314 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,200 And, and also they're at sea, like, you know, most fishermen 315 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,480 are at sea sort of probably 200 days a year or something like 316 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,680 that. And so they're seeing the 317 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,400 unusual things, you know, they'll say to you, Oh, yes, 318 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,800 well, you know, we saw an unusual amount of sunfish this 319 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,360 year or, oh, you know, we're catching like, lots of John Dory 320 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:27,160 now. We know we don't used to catch 321 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,720 any at all or whatever it is. So having those eyes on the 322 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,120 ocean is super important, particularly now for 323 00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,480 understanding the effects of climate change. 324 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,960 Yeah, and he talks about monitoring, but how do you 325 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,560 communicate about whether an MPA marine protected area is 326 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,160 working? Yeah, that's a really good 327 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,720 question because a lot of people just assume it's about the 328 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,560 biology and and you know, I am a marine biologist and that's been 329 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,360 my predominant focus. So you go, you go in there, you, 330 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,400 you know, you monitor things through these methods like I've 331 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,680 said through diving through videos, etcetera. 332 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,280 And you see how the biodiversity is changing and and you compare 333 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,360 that to areas that are unprotected because you need to 334 00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:16,000 have those controls as well. And that's super important 335 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,360 because that's the basis of what you're trying to achieve. 336 00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:21,400 You know, you're trying to achieve these more biologically 337 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:26,680 healthy ecosystems. But then it's also important to 338 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,560 know, you know, what else is the MPA doing? 339 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,200 So how is it affecting the, you know, the local community? 340 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,880 And on Aaron, that's we've done some studies on this and you 341 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,400 know, one of the things that I found really encouraging was the 342 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,080 amount of pride that there is in the local community about the 343 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,760 fact that they've protected their local marine environment, 344 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,360 that they, you know, that they're known all over the 345 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:55,080 world, to be honest, for doing this. 346 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,640 There's a great case study, even more so now after the ocean 347 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:04,000 film, but also, and they genuinely say that it brings 348 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,800 tourists to the island. You know that that now there's a 349 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,080 coast has a visitor centre for example, and there's a lot of 350 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:16,200 information up around the place. And so that kind of leads you on 351 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,200 to another element, which is the economic benefits of it. 352 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,080 So in this case, you know, if it's benefiting tourism, then 353 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,040 that's great, but also it's created jobs in marine 354 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:33,600 conservation, it's created, you know, there's a diving business 355 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,360 that's set up now and wildlife watching tours and things like 356 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:41,560 this. So monitoring those different 357 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,000 elements are all really important. 358 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:49,240 And so I think what you want is a, you know, a well-rounded sort 359 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,440 of package of success for a really, really good marine 360 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,160 protected area. I think the other, the only 361 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,760 other thing I'll add is, and I'll be biassed because I'm a 362 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,920 scientist. But yeah, as I said, I've had 363 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,920 over 20 students over the years go up and do field work on the 364 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,880 Isle of Arran. And often it's been for either 365 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,280 their masters projects or their PhDs. 366 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,640 And I know for a fact that they've all had a brilliant 367 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,320 time. I mean, they all come and tell 368 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:22,600 me how fantastic it was to work there, how motivational it was 369 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,360 to work with a community that was so engaged in marine 370 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:28,240 conservation. And pretty much all of those 371 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,040 students now have gone on to have their own careers and 372 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,160 sometimes been very successful and very influential. 373 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,960 But they will point back to that experience on Aaron as being 374 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,480 quite sort of fundamental to the development of their careers. 375 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,040 So you get this like human capital benefit as well and I 376 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,680 don't think that's as well documented as some of the other 377 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,760 things. That's the Lamblash Bay no take 378 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,960 zone and S Arran marine protected area. 379 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,840 Do they show that fishing and consolation are compatible? 380 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,880 Yeah, absolutely. So you know like I said, most of 381 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,800 those the no take zone is, is no fishing, but that's a very small 382 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,240 part. It's like 1% of the whole area, 383 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,760 but the the rest of it is open to fishing. 384 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,720 So, you know, it does allow these low impact fishing methods 385 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,000 to still continue Crab and lobster potting. 386 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,240 They've actually tried as well potting for scallops using the 387 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:29,160 scallop lights or scallop disco method and then things like 388 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,480 diving for scallops as well. And so, yeah, absolutely. 389 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:39,560 Like it's, it's a fantastic example of this zonal approach. 390 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,200 As long as the method that you're using is compatible with 391 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,520 the things you're trying to protect, then that's going to be 392 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,320 a way forward. But we've also seen, you know, 393 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,960 like spillover of lobsters out of the no tech zone. 394 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,840 And we also know that these really healthy populations of 395 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:04,920 certain things like scallops and, and, and lobsters are 396 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,800 breeding at exceptionally high levels in the protected areas. 397 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:15,160 And so very hard to prove that that's actually benefiting 398 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,920 fisheries. But we have seen in that in the 399 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,320 area, a general improvement. For example, the lobster catch 400 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,280 rates have gone up, you know, over the last decade. 401 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,400 And so there's a lot of good evidence that it is providing, 402 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,360 you know, a big range of benefits to fisheries as well as 403 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:35,760 conservation. And in Aaron, it seemed like a 404 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,520 clear cut case of stopping the destruction of seabed habitats. 405 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:43,200 How can communities be involved in other places where they maybe 406 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,880 don't know what's happening underwater? 407 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,520 Yeah. So that's another great question 408 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:53,400 and I would point to the Coastal Communities Network as a great 409 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,680 example of how that can happen. So the Coastal Communities 410 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,960 Network is, as the name suggests, a network of about 25 411 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,920 organisations now I think around Scotland who were inspired by 412 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,000 the story of what happened on Aaron. 413 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,280 So that, and they would, turned out there were a lot of other 414 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,480 little groups around Scotland. Originally it was only maybe 415 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,320 half a dozen. And some of these groups were 416 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,560 tiny, like they were, you know, two people who met when they 417 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,040 were walking their dog and they said, oh, look, you know, 418 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,000 there's this pollution in our Bay, like what can we do about 419 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,080 it? And they'd set up a tiny little 420 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,800 organisation and that has really grown from there. 421 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,080 And so, as I said, now there's 25 other coastal community sort 422 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:40,960 of organisations around Scotland. 423 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,560 They don't all do what what's happening on our own coast. 424 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,440 They have their own specific sort of issues that they're 425 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,520 dealing with. Some of them are, you know, 426 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,040 protesting against salmon farms that they think are in the wrong 427 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,840 place. Sometimes it's marine litter, 428 00:25:55,280 --> 00:26:00,080 sometimes it's conflicts between different types of fishing and 429 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,920 you know, I go to their meetings every couple of years and it's 430 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,560 so inspirational to be part of them because you, I've seen them 431 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:12,000 grow over the last decade. And like I say, you know, now a 432 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,080 number of those organisations have set up their own science 433 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,120 programmes and some of them focus a lot on science 434 00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:22,920 communication and outreach. So they've got their own little 435 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,600 remotely controlled underwater vehicles or Rovs that they'll 436 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,000 sort of fly down to the seabed and, you know, make some really 437 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,800 cool footage. But others have actually worked 438 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,000 directly with, with the Scottish Government to help with surveys 439 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,440 again, because they have that local knowledge. 440 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,360 And some of the others have made films, for example. 441 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:48,880 So it's, it's absolutely possible. 442 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,640 It takes commitment and perseverance, but you know, I 443 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,560 think as we the title of the article in the NBA magazine is 444 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,840 called Marine Conservation begins at home. 445 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,800 And I think for me, that's a really powerful message. 446 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,920 Like, yes, you can, you know, you can sign petitions to say, 447 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,400 let's change this across the world or whatever. 448 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,080 But don't forget also just to look after your own backyard. 449 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,760 You know, that's where you can probably as an individual or as 450 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,440 a, as a small group of people really make the biggest 451 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,960 difference. It is inspirational. 452 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,080 Bryce, we might have a clue about this one, but can you tell 453 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,200 us what your favourite sea creature is and why? 454 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,120 So you know, I do get asked this question occasionally and 455 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:40,840 everyone assumes it's a scallop and they are definitely right up 456 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,960 there. But I think my favourite 457 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:49,080 creature is a blue Marlin. And this is inspired by seeing a 458 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,080 few of them when, when I was growing up in Papua New Guinea 459 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,200 from the boat. And then, you know, obviously as 460 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,440 documentaries have sort of come on board, I'm always remember 461 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,560 seeing them in, in Blue Planet 1 and 2, you know, feeding in high 462 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,600 definition. I just think they're the most 463 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,240 magnificent creatures. They're pretty weird, right? 464 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,800 Fish with a great big spike on its nose. 465 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,200 But I just, I just find them just fantastic, like, beautiful, 466 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,920 magnificent. They can swim incredible 467 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,640 distances. And, you know, I feel like they 468 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,520 kind of laud it over the ocean. Apart from humans, they don't 469 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,800 have any other sort of threats, anything else to worry about. 470 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,880 So yeah, I think a blue island would would have to top my list. 471 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,080 And what advice would you have for a young person who wants to 472 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,760 be a marine biologist? Wow. 473 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,640 OK, so I think first of all, I'm going to say follow your dream. 474 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,760 You know, that's certainly what I did. 475 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,920 And to begin with, I wasn't the world's greatest student, but I 476 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,520 was like just so determined that I was going to make this work. 477 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,640 And I'm lucky enough that I have. 478 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,240 So don't give up if that's what you want to do. 479 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,960 You know, if that's your passion, follow your dream. 480 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:14,320 Like just keep at it. I would also say identify your, 481 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,000 you know, your special skill, your strengths, because being a 482 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,800 marine biologist is many things. You know, I think some people 483 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,840 think it's just about scuba diving and teaching dolphins how 484 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,640 to speak or something like this, right. 485 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,520 But and, and certainly there are positions for field based marine 486 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,760 biologists, but you can also do a lot working in the lab. 487 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,840 You know, one of the things now that's really developing as a 488 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,200 method is environmental DNA or Edna where we can take a water 489 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,480 droplet and find out what species have been in that order. 490 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,800 You might, for example, be really good with computers. 491 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:58,040 And so actually those numerical skills are super important and 492 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,120 modelling what's going on in in the marine environment is 493 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,600 absolutely vital. Or you might be more creative, 494 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,040 you know, you might be, you might be a great writer or you 495 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,920 might be, you know, somebody who likes to take images or make 496 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,080 films or whatever. Even social media, you know, 497 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,400 that's super important for communicating the, you know, 498 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,960 some of the issues that the world's oceans face. 499 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,880 And so you can be a whole range of different things if you know, 500 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,640 depending on your skill and still benefit marine biology and 501 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,040 marine conservation. And then I guess my final third 502 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,000 thing would just be perseverance, because it's not 503 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,360 an easy thing to succeed in. And you're going to have some 504 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,160 ups and downs and there's probably times when you're going 505 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,280 to feel like quitting and doing something a bit easier. 506 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,400 But, you know, if that's your passion, if that's your dream, 507 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,480 then just don't give up. Keep going. 508 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,840 And I promise you, you will have some fantastic rewards. 509 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,880 Like, yes, you know, sometimes I have to try and balance 510 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,880 spreadsheets and I spend a lot of time answering emails. 511 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,720 But other times I'm swimming with blue sharks or, you know, 512 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,960 watching fin whales next to the boat, like, or even going to the 513 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,360 premiere of Oceans with David Attenborough last week. 514 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,120 I mean, whoever expected that would happen. 515 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,800 So you know, persevere, follow your dreams and identify your 516 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,960 special skills. Great. 517 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,720 Thank you. Well, it's great to speak to 518 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,280 you, Bryce. It's inspirational work and it 519 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,840 really reinforces this message that given a chance and with 520 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,440 local effort as well, the marine environment will bounce back 521 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,800 really quickly. So yeah, once again, thanks very 522 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,520 much and we look forward to following your work in the 523 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,320 future. Thank you very much. 524 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,720 My pleasure. Become a member of the Marine 525 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,000 Biological Association and be part of the global community 526 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,880 advocating for the ocean. You will receive 4 copies a year 527 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,640 of our beautifully produced magazine, The Marine Biologist 528 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,760 and a host of other benefits. 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