1 00:00:08,090 --> 00:00:10,490 Welcome to the Marine Biologist podcast. 2 00:00:10,690 --> 00:00:14,170 Join us to discover the latest ocean topics from leading marine 3 00:00:14,170 --> 00:00:17,730 scientists and conservationists. The podcast accompanies The 4 00:00:17,730 --> 00:00:21,210 Marine Biologist, the magazine for members of the Marine 5 00:00:21,210 --> 00:00:25,610 Biological Association, and is presented by the editor, Guy 6 00:00:25,610 --> 00:00:28,450 Baker. We hope you enjoy this episode. 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,480 Welcome to the Marine Biologist podcast. 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,400 We're honoured today to welcome Professor Stephen Hawkins, an 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,360 experimental ecologist who's worked on rocky shores for 60 10 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,080 years. He's Emeritus Professor in the 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,560 School of Ocean and Earth Sciences at the University of 12 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,160 Southampton. A Lancaster Research Fellow at 13 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:54,280 the Marine Biological Association, Steve was also 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,040 Director of the MBA from 1999 to 2007. 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,160 Welcome Steve. Where are you joining us from? 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,120 I'm actually in my wife's flat in in Switzerland. 17 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,920 She until quite recently worked in the Swiss Pharmaceutical 18 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:12,120 industry, a job that she was not that compatible with my career 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,880 as a marine biologist, as they see in Switzerland, first of 20 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,520 all. What three things should we know 21 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,280 about you? Well, I can be pretty grumpy 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,680 before 10:00 in the morning, except if I've got up early to 23 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,640 get to work. A good tide. 24 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:37,360 I'm an outdoors person I've most of my hobbies are things like 25 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:44,280 going fishing or surfing on my 1960s plywood board that I've 26 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,280 had since I was 12. I quite like walking in the 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,120 country, I like walking in Switzerland. 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,720 I enjoy skiing, which is going to be compromised by the fact 29 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,400 I'm getting 2 new knees over the next couple of years. 30 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:04,840 And yeah, I've always, I've always appreciated nature. 31 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:10,720 And the other thing is I'm, I'm a pretty sporty sort of person. 32 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,000 I've never been very good at sports, but I've always been 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:18,280 competent at things like cricket, rugby, football, field 34 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,840 hockey, not too bad at tennis. So I've always enjoyed playing 35 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,560 sports, but probably not spent as much time playing sports as I 36 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,720 should have done because unfortunately sort of work in 37 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,840 general and Rocky Shaw in particular, sort of has been 38 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,000 probably the major, major thing I've spent my life on over the 39 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:45,240 last 45 years or so. When did you first work on Rocky 40 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,560 Shaw's? My first encounter with rocky 41 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,400 shore ecology was actually on a field course on the Isle of Man. 42 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,200 I was a student at Liverpool University and in those days 43 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,080 Liverpool University had a marine lab on the Isle of Man 44 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:03,200 that had been founded in 1992, sadly closed in 2006 and on a 45 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,640 first year field course in 1974 we did the inevitable 46 00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:12,200 examination of of zonation on the seashore and also size and 47 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:17,480 shape in limpets based on work that JH Orton, who works at the 48 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,600 NBA before going on to Liverpool to become professor there, had 49 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,000 started the 1930s. So this was my first 50 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,760 introduction. And then the first actual bit of 51 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,920 proper research I did on rocky shores was a three day project 52 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:36,960 on an Elgology field course on the Isle of Man led by George 53 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,680 Russell. And I actually looked at the 54 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,720 seaweeds growing on Olympic shells and the seaweeds growing 55 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,880 in the surrounding area, the grazed area around the Olympics, 56 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,760 because the seaweed shells were a refuge from Olympic grazing 57 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,160 because they're not very agile. And that sort of got me 58 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,360 interested in in seaweeds and it also got me interested in in 59 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,400 Olympic seaweed interactions. So that was the first three day 60 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,000 bits of bits of research I did as a second year student. 61 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,360 And then I decided to do my final year research project, my 62 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,120 honours year research project on rocky shorts, which I did with 63 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,320 Richard Hartnell who then went on to become my PhD supervisor. 64 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:23,160 So it is actually 50 years this year that I've been interested 65 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,200 in working on rocky shores. Previously I was a bit more 66 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,600 interested in fish and. When did you first visit the 67 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,720 Marine Biological Association? I first visited the Marine 68 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:42,760 Biological Association in 1978. I went down to visit Alan 69 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,880 Southwood. I was interested in in doing a a 70 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,520 Natural Environment Research Council personal post doc and 71 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,840 for it to be hosted at the Marine Biological Association. 72 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,000 I'd heard Alan give a very, very good talk at the European Marine 73 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,680 Biology Symposium on the Isle of Man about recovery from the Tory 74 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,520 Canyon Hospital. And I decided that this guy was 75 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,600 the guy I wanted to do my postdoc with. 76 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,320 And also my PhD had followed up some of the work that had been 77 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,760 done on the Isle of Man in the 1940s by a guy called Norman 78 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:21,840 Jones, who was one of Orton's, one of Orton's students, and 79 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:25,040 also by Alan Southwood, who was supervised by by Autumn. 80 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:30,520 And I was aware of Alan's work because I was following it, you 81 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,600 know. But having met him, I went down 82 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,840 to discuss a, a student, a fellowship with him that I would 83 00:05:36,840 --> 00:05:44,360 apply for. And I went and visited and, and 84 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,520 I then wrote the proposal which Alan had a look at and said it 85 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,400 was full of jargon. But obviously the jargon worked 86 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,400 because I got the fellowship and I ended up getting a three-year 87 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,040 postdoc at Marine Biological Association, which I started the 88 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,840 following year. So my first visit as a worker to 89 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:12,280 the MBA was in December 1979 when I started my my Natural 90 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:15,720 Environmental Research Council NERK funded personal 91 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,400 postdoctoral fellowship. And Alan Salford was a hugely 92 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,920 influential figure in rocky shore ecology, wasn't he? 93 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,000 Not just rocky shore ecology. I mean he did so many different 94 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,040 things. He worked with his wife Eve on 95 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,560 pogonofferer gutless worms, which they'd led to work, they 96 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,360 did on hydrothermal vents. When large pogonofferer were 97 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:46,440 discovered, he did a lot of work on, on plankton and fisheries in 98 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,920 the English Channel in relation to climate change, also using 99 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:51,880 rockish or animals as indicators. 100 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,280 He did some fabulous work on recovery from the Tory Canyon 101 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:57,200 oil spill. I mean, he was a real polymath. 102 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:03,200 And in those days there was a, a small permanent staff at the NBA 103 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,280 and they were encouraged to work on what they what they wanted to 104 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:09,200 work on And, and Alan did a lot of things. 105 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,920 I think he was asked to take on the plankton work, which he 106 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,440 hadn't done previously, to basically inherit it from Sir 107 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:22,320 Frederick Russell when he became director of the NBA, so on. 108 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,800 If you wanted to ever find Alan on a Saturday morning, he would 109 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,600 be in the lab looking at a plankton sample that had been 110 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,680 collected the previous day, which he would examine fresh. 111 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,560 And I I knew when I was doing my postdoc that if I went and 112 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,520 knocked on his door at about 12:30, he would have just 113 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,000 finished his plankton sample and he'd have time for a chat for 114 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:48,800 half an hour before going back for lunch at the house in in 115 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,840 Plymouth. So yeah, he did a lot of 116 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:56,160 different things, but his Brocky shore work was basically the 117 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,600 precursor to what I did my PhD on, which was on interactions 118 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,480 between limpets, barnacles and seaweeds and how that determined 119 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,440 distribution patterns on the seashore. 120 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,600 And also community structure, particularly patchiness. 121 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,400 I was very interested in patchiness at the stage of my 122 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,800 career. Yeah, and that begs the 123 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,760 question, why are Olympics so important? 124 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:25,080 Well, they are, I would say they are the keystone grazer on 125 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,600 particularly north North East Atlantic rocky shores. 126 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:35,840 And they're, they're grazing activities are akin to a cow or 127 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,000 a sheep in a field. You know, if you took a cow or a 128 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,840 sheep away from a field and waited 500 years, you might get 129 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,720 climax oak woodland. But if you build a little fence 130 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,680 with chicken wire, which I did for my PhD and exclude limpets, 131 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:55,800 within six months, you get 100% stand of fucoid seaweeds, which 132 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,480 reaches full size within about a couple of years. 133 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,680 So they're grazing activities are basically controlling algal 134 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:07,200 vegetation on moderately exposed and exposures throughout most of 135 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,520 the NE Atlanta. Well for all of the Northeast 136 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,280 Atlantic other than very, very sheltered shores where the 137 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,000 seaweeds win and the Olympics don't do so well. 138 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,640 And we think the Olympics don't do so well on shelter shores 139 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,200 because they don't like sediment, which we've done a bit 140 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,480 of research on some work I did with Laura Araldi at the NBA 141 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,360 when she was a visitor. They also are subject to more 142 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,160 crab predation, another piece of work which I did jointly with 143 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,120 Richard Thompson, Anna Silver as a student and Deanna Boe 144 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,480 Ventura, where we looked at crab mobile crab predation and rocky 145 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,400 shores. And certainly if we exclude 146 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,560 crabs by little cages on, on, on on more sheltered shores, 147 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,240 Olympics survive. So I think combination of of of 148 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,000 siltation and the siltations aided by ascophilin canopies 149 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,400 which promote algal turfs. The algal turfs trapped silt and 150 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,360 on a very sheltered rocky shore, you'll get limpets and little 151 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,880 clearings which are just managing to keep clear. 152 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,280 So they don't win. The limpets don't win on shelter 153 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,880 shores, but on more exposed shores that they're the dominant 154 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:18,160 grazer from more or less the top of the shore down to the algal 155 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,880 turf zone. And at that stage on the shore, 156 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,720 the seaweeds can grow faster than the Olympics can grow. 157 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,040 So that's where either side or low waters where the basically 158 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,360 seaweeds win and Olympics just can't, can't grow as fast. 159 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,080 So we've done experiments where we've excluded Olympics 160 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,960 throughout Europe, part of a a European research project called 161 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:45,960 Euro Rock, which which showed that exclusion Olympics all the 162 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:50,920 way from the Isle of Man down to Portugal reduced seaweed cover 163 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,600 on the seashore. And we did think that in 164 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,800 southern Europe where it was hotter weather, that the 165 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,560 unfavourable stressful conditions when the tide was out 166 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:04,000 would be, would actually limit algal growth. 167 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,880 But even in hot conditions, even in experiments we set up over 168 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,120 the summer, in the worst conditions, removal Olympics led 169 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,080 to proliferation seaweeds even in the South of Portugal. 170 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,440 The nice thing about rocky shores though, is you can 171 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,560 actually see the patterns. If you, if you're working on the 172 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:24,240 sand on a, on a mud flat or a, or a beach, you've got to 173 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:29,760 actually dig the sand, sieve the sand, look at the species, 174 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,920 identify them, then stick them into some kind of complex 175 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,880 multivariate analysis before you get any idea of the underlying 176 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,160 pattern. But on the seashore you can see 177 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,040 patches of seaweed, patches of barnacles, and the patterns are 178 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,840 very, very apparent. And and that's what makes Rocky 179 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,280 Shores such an important test system for experimental work. 180 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,000 And So what are the bigger questions that you're trying to 181 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,200 answer in your research? Well, at the moment, my research 182 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:02,480 is in the sort of, shall we say, trending towards retirement 183 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,880 phase. And I suppose I'm trying to tie 184 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,160 up a lot of loose ends and undone things that I've been 185 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:10,920 working on for the last 50 years. 186 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:16,320 But throughout my career, the, the, the three main things which 187 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:23,080 have interested me on on on rocky shores are what's the 188 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,480 relative role of physical factors as ultimate factors and 189 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,600 biological interactions as, as proximate direct factors in 190 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,880 setting distributions and affecting the structure and 191 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,640 composition of rocky shore communities. 192 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:46,280 And then about 10 or 15 years ago, working with Stuart Jenkins 193 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,400 and other people task Crow, Richard Thompson, we got 194 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,360 interested in what the implications of biodiversity on 195 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,520 rocky shores were for ecosystem functioning, how important 196 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,880 biodiversity was for the way that the ecosystem worked. 197 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,920 And again, using rocky shores as a model system to explore this. 198 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,280 Some very nice work was done by a student at the MBA, John 199 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:17,440 Gryphon, who's now a full time academic at Swansea University 200 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,240 with Stuart Jenkins and Rich Thompson and myself, where rock 201 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,600 pools were used on rock pools were simulated in the seawater 202 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,360 hall at the MBA to understand how diversity affected ecosystem 203 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,840 processes. And I suppose the other thing 204 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,320 that I've been doing in parallel with this experimental work, and 205 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:44,840 it was something that I decided to do when I was in Manchester 206 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,880 for a few years and I could, I used to come down to the MBA to 207 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,120 work in the summer because the University of Manchester had 208 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:57,680 helped establish the MBA in 1888 and the lab and we actually had 209 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:00,120 a free table there for perpetuity. 210 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,240 So I could come and use the MBA facilities for nothing because 211 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,040 the University of Manchester had given 50 Guineas a year since 212 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:14,840 1887 to laboratory. So what I decided then was that 213 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,080 I could do broad scale and long term work. 214 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,160 And the interest in this was sparked by a field trip with 215 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:28,040 Alan Syford in Alan Leaves Southford in March, no April 216 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,880 1980, where we looked at various sites that Alan had been looking 217 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,600 at for many, many years since the 1950s, starting at Lyme 218 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,960 Regis and then going to Portland, couple of sites in 219 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:46,080 Dorset and then Swanage chasing the tide out as it gets later 220 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,560 along the Channel. And that got me interested and I 221 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,320 think Alan deliberately got me interested in long term and 222 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,240 broad scale observing. One of the things that prompted 223 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,800 this further was when I came to the MBA, my my postdoc, which as 224 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,880 Alan said was full of jargon, was, was looking at using 225 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,760 limpets as a model for, for niche differentiation. 226 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,000 Niche theory was a very trendy subject in the late 1970s, early 227 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,040 80s. And I was interested in using 228 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,160 two coexistent species Olympics, Patella depressor or warm water 229 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,680 species and Patella bulgata or cold water species and looking 230 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,400 at their competitive interactions and trying to use 231 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,640 that as a model to understand and inform niche theory. 232 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,680 Well, I I'd read all the, I'd read all the literature from the 233 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:42,920 1950s and it said that in the Plymouth area, many sites, there 234 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,960 were about 5050 populations. And this seemed like a, a good 235 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,680 model system to do various removal density manipulation 236 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:56,520 experiments. So that also prompted my 237 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:02,920 interest in, in, in long term change because in the 1980s it 238 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,760 was the end of a cold period. And when I turned up, I actually 239 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,880 found that the warm water Olympic was much less common 240 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,480 than it had been in the balmy 1950s. 241 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,800 And when I actually started this long term and broad scale work, 242 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,760 I was actually interested in getting colder. 243 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:25,320 And in the, in the early 1980s there was lots of stuff in, on 244 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,880 the TV and in newspapers about a new Ice Age coming because from 245 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,600 196263 onwards it'd been a very cold period. 246 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,120 So that's my other interest. And my, my final main research 247 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,040 interest has always been on more applied ecology. 248 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:46,080 And I've been interested in urban coastlines, particularly 249 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,520 recovery from pollution incidents. 250 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,400 I did a lot of work in Liverpool from Manchester and Liverpool 251 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,480 on, on restoration of this disused dock basins, essentially 252 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,600 inside out rocky shores with artificial rocky shores in the 253 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,240 middle. How to restore those for urban 254 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,200 renewal schemes. And more recently I got involved 255 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:13,400 in a lot of work on what's now called eco engineering, but it 256 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,960 wasn't called eco engineering when I started it, when I 257 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,599 started getting involved in it, which is actually how you could 258 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:24,240 modify artificial coastlines to increase biodiversity. 259 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,119 So if you're going to build a sea defence, try to make it 260 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,440 multi multifunctional and try to design it with biodiversity in 261 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,760 mind rather than just engineering functionality in 262 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,600 mind. And that area of research has 263 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,000 really exploded. And a lot of this work was done 264 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,840 with in recent years has been done with Louise Firth, who was 265 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,520 at University of Plymouth, now at University College Cork and 266 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,560 also with Richard Thompson. I mean Richard Thompson LED a 267 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:56,600 big chunk of an EU project that was involved in in the 2002 268 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,040 thousand and 10's. And this is basically on trying 269 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:07,000 to apply knowledge from natural rocky shores to make urban rocky 270 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,840 shores or sea defences more attractive from real life, and 271 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,280 also to put in place ecosystem services, one of which of course 272 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,680 are cultural ecosystem services. Because British people love rock 273 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,520 pooling. So I always say eco engineering 274 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,440 is not rocket science. It's more like rock pool 275 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,400 science. So where are your favourite rock 276 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,320 pools in this country? Well, every rock pool is 277 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:36,560 different and and every rock pool is different because of 278 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,840 different sizes, different shapes, different depths, 279 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,640 different species pools to inhabit them, a different 280 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:50,800 underlying geology which effects the ultimate factor affecting 281 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,840 how many rock pools and what type are there. 282 00:18:54,400 --> 00:19:03,000 I think some of my favourite rock pools would be on limestone 283 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:09,400 shores in areas where there's the intertidal sea urchin 284 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,520 paracent well inside on the subtitle sea urchin 285 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,440 paracentroaches lividus, you get some of these in Ireland. 286 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,480 The species doesn't occur in UK, they occur on the French case. 287 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,680 They occur in Portugal. So I think some of my favourite 288 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,960 rock pools are in Portugal. And I've been very fortunate and 289 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,800 I've been involved in work on both natural and artificial rock 290 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,080 pools in Portugal for some time now. 291 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,480 And I was very pleased with my most recent Portuguese student 292 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,320 and probably my last former Portuguese student graduated 293 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,360 this this June after doing some splendid work on rock pools, 294 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:47,640 both natural and artificial. And I think my some of my 295 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,720 favourite rock pools are definitely Portugal, but Wembley 296 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:52,840 is pretty good as well.