1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,760 Welcome to the Marine Biologist podcast join us to discover the 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:08,880 latest topics by leading marine researchers and 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,640 conservationists. The podcast accompanies The 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,200 Marine Biologist, the magazine for members of the Marine 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,200 Biological Association, as presented by the editor Guy 6 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:23,200 Baker. We're really pleased to welcome 7 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,360 today Doctor Alice Horton, Senior Research Fellow at the 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,400 Marine Biological Association. Welcome Alice. 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,120 Thank you. What was your route into marine 10 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,160 biology and how did you get specifically into microplastics? 11 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,640 I think I have a similar story to many people in this field in 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,200 that I've always been fascinated with the ocean ever since I was 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,280 little. I think the scale of it and how 14 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,560 unknown so much of the ocean is really drew me towards it. 15 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,840 But I actually started my study in more broad biology, so my 16 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:54,680 undergraduate degree was biology. 17 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,520 It was during that period that I carried out a research project 18 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,040 looking at the effects of pollutants on moon jellyfish and 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,680 I worked within an aquarium facility, so behind the scenes 20 00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:08,360 at the Sea Life Centre, and I found that absolutely 21 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,480 fascinating and it really drew me to want to research marine 22 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,360 biology further into the future. So after that I pursued an 23 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:20,880 Oceanography MSC with a focus on marine biology and ecology, and 24 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,240 after that point I went to work at the Centre for Ecology and 25 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,240 Hydrology and they were advertising a position for a 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,480 research associate looking at microplastics and toxic 27 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,720 pollutants. And at that point in time, it 28 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,800 was 2014, I think, nobody had really heard of microplastics, 29 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:44,560 nobody really knew much about them, so not many people were 30 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,640 doing research in the UK. And it was a really good 31 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,960 opportunity then for me to develop the UK research on 32 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,760 microplastics, specifically in fresh waters, which is what 33 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,800 UKCEH were focusing on at that point in time. 34 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,960 And that really enabled me to develop and to put my stamp on a 35 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,720 new and burgeoning field. And over the years I've moved 36 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:11,760 between terrestrial systems, so soils, fresh waters and now more 37 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,400 in the marine environment, covering things such as looking 38 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,880 at where plastics are coming from and where they accumulate 39 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,080 in the environment, but then also these biological and 40 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,480 ecological interactions leading to toxicological effects. 41 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,920 The podcast follows on from an article that you've written for 42 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:30,240 the Marine Biologist magazine. And in that article you point 43 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,040 out there's so much we don't know about plastics, 44 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,200 microplastics in the in the environment. 45 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,480 So what are the particular challenges of working with 46 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,320 microplastics? So I mean, plastics in general 47 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,280 are relatively new contaminant if we think about the scale of 48 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,840 human existence, because we've only really been commercially 49 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,360 using plastics since the 1950s. But one of the issues with 50 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,240 plastics of course, that they're very persistent, but they're 51 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,000 also very diverse and very heterogeneous. 52 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,960 So there are, you know, thousands of different polymer 53 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:03,600 types really if we break it down. 54 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,600 And then within those we have a multitude of different chemical 55 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,560 additives. These can enter the environment 56 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,800 of course and plastics breakdown into smaller and smaller pieces. 57 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,880 So they are not really, we shouldn't really consider them 58 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,000 as one contaminant plastics. We really need to think of them 59 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,560 as a sort of diverse suite of chemical contaminants that are 60 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,760 all interacting and behaving in different ways. 61 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,200 And this poses problems when we want to try and, well, A, work 62 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,040 out what the effects of plastics will be on organisms, because 63 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,560 this will vary depending on the material that you're looking at. 64 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,640 But then B, look for these materials within the 65 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,280 environment. So if we're trying to find 66 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,200 microplastics in environmental samples, A, they're very small. 67 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,760 So the scale of a microplastic is defined as anything between 5 68 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,680 millimetres and one Micron. So quite a diverse range. 69 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,240 Still 5 millimetres you'd be able to see with your naked eye. 70 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,760 One Micron, absolutely not. So trying to find these things 71 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,760 in themselves can be quite challenging. 72 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,160 Trying to determine what they're made of, where they've come 73 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,360 from, and what the effects are all relies on quite 74 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,120 sophisticated analytical techniques that are still really 75 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,279 in development. So the ways in which people are 76 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,040 doing this research continues to evolve and has done quite a lot 77 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,320 even since I started in this field a few years ago. 78 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,840 Can you give us some detail about the direction your 79 00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:30,720 research is gonna take here at the NBA? 80 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,720 Yes. So to date, my research has 81 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,280 really focused on 2 categories. It has been environmental 82 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,680 accumulation of plastics, so trying to understand what's in 83 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,440 the environment and where it's going and how it's behaving. 84 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,080 And then on the other hand, it's trying to understand the effects 85 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,240 of those plastics on organisms and ecosystems that are exposed 86 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,520 to them. And what people have done so far 87 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,920 is generally keep those things reasonably separate. 88 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,280 And the experimental studies that have been carried out to 89 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:05,360 look at the effects of plastics generally look at plastics on 90 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,560 their own. So don't necessarily or are not 91 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,280 necessarily able to consider the really complex environmental 92 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,080 interactions that will actually be at play when we're looking at 93 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:18,720 what is happening in the environment. 94 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,640 So what I'm trying to do with my research is trying to make it 95 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,800 more environmentally relevant by running experiments that account 96 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,840 for wider environmental factors as well as plastics and 97 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:33,120 specifically additional stresses. 98 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:37,400 So things like climate change stresses in the form of things 99 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,400 like increasing ocean temperature and then also 100 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,120 chemical stresses. So we know that there's a huge 101 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,680 diversity of toxic chemicals and persistent chemicals that are 102 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,560 entering the environment and trying to understand how if we 103 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,280 have microplastics and these chemicals in multitude of 104 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:57,880 combinations in the environment, what are the combined effects of 105 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,200 those on the organisms that are exposed? 106 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,680 Because we know, for example, if animals are exposed to climate 107 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,000 change effects, they might be less resilient then to the 108 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,160 effects of another pollutant that's occurring in the 109 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,720 environment. So it might make them more 110 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,120 stressed or it might cause greater harm than if those 111 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:17,840 things are occurring in isolation. 112 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,000 And the other thing with plastics and chemicals is that 113 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,480 they are known to bind together with each other. 114 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,640 So if an animal, for example, ingests a piece of microplastic, 115 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,760 there's a high chance, well, an almost certain chance that that 116 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,440 is associated with a variety of different chemicals. 117 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,400 And those can have different effects again than if they were 118 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,680 present as separate contaminants. 119 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,440 So it's really trying to understand the greater 120 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,800 complexity that we have in the environment compared to some of 121 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,440 the studies that we've been able to carry out to date. 122 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,720 And does that, will that look like sort of you've got hundreds 123 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,000 of types of plastic, thousands of chemicals? 124 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,840 Well, how do you narrow down what you're going to do? 125 00:06:58,840 --> 00:07:01,920 Is that laboratory experiments with sort of specific cocktails 126 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,760 of plastics and. Exactly, exactly. 127 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,640 I mean, we are never going to be able to test everything. 128 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,080 So it's about choosing things that are the most representative 129 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,680 of what we are likely to find in the environment and also trying 130 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,560 to identify what we believe may be the most hazardous based on 131 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,200 the research that's been done to date. 132 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,960 So specifically, choosing polymer types that we know to be 133 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,640 very abundant in the environment. 134 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,560 So things like polyethylene and polypropylene are very widely 135 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,240 found in the environment because they're used in a huge array of 136 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,880 different products that we use day-to-day, including packaging 137 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,280 materials and so on. We've got things like nylon and 138 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:45,280 PVC that we use in clothing and building materials and so on. 139 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,760 So it's about narrowing down where we really think of a key 140 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,400 problems in the environment and then assessing the impacts of 141 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,480 those. Because yes, like you said, it's 142 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,640 it's impossible to analyse everything and anything and 143 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,080 everything. What do you enjoy most about 144 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,760 your job? I really think for me it's the 145 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,200 fact that science really keeps you on your toes and you don't 146 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,400 always know what to expect. So there are lots of challenges 147 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,840 that you can face practically in terms of doing lab work. 148 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,520 So things don't always go to plan. 149 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,360 I mean, when we're doing science, by its nature, it's 150 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,280 something that's brand new. So we're trying to do something 151 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,160 that hasn't been done before. That means that often we don't 152 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,200 really know how to do it. We have to develop the methods 153 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:32,360 enable to do it, so to be able to understand that those 154 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,520 challenges will face us and overcome those so that we can 155 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,039 get the data that we want. And then also often the data 156 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:40,240 don't always show what we expect, so we can have 157 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,600 hypotheses about what we expect to happen. 158 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:46,000 That's not necessarily what actually is the result that we 159 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,960 see. So it can be really interesting 160 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,400 in that way in that it challenges our understanding of 161 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,880 what we believe to be the case. Also, my job is very diverse, so 162 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,720 I can spend days, you know, working with organisms in the 163 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,000 lab. I can be analysing data at my 164 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,400 desk, or I can be at a conference presenting my data to 165 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,920 stakeholders or even in Parliament, which I've done 166 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,280 before now. So the ability to, you know, get 167 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,920 out into different environments to communicate with people from 168 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,560 all walks of life is really something that I enjoy a lot. 169 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,560 Back to microplastics research going on at Plymouth Marine 170 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:24,120 Laboratory, it's going on into tire Ware particles. 171 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,600 And there was a, a fact that came up in an article that some 172 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,000 of the researchers have written for the magazine that as an 173 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,280 estimation of about 5065% of all microplastics released into UK 174 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,480 surface waters come from tire Ware particles. 175 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,480 So that's a that's quite a shocking statistic, isn't it? 176 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:50,040 Is that, is that something that just is is is it the sort of new 177 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,680 discovery that that's that volume of microplastics comes 178 00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:58,760 from Rd. effectively? Yes, I'd say that's a relatively 179 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:03,200 recent understanding that we've come to and it came later almost 180 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,920 than the initial research on microplastics because people 181 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,400 that were doing microplastics research were finding unknown 182 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,880 particles in samples that are very difficult to analyse 183 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,440 because they are chemically quite different tyre particles. 184 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,360 But because they are a synthetic rubber, that's a Solomon 185 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,480 particle, they are still considered to be micro plastics. 186 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,520 But I think if you think about it, it is relatively obvious 187 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:27,640 that those will be in the environment. 188 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,680 Because if you think about your car tyres and how often you need 189 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:34,200 to replace those, it's because they're wearing and they're 190 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,600 going bold. That rubber that used to be on 191 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,280 your tyre is no longer there. So it has to be somewhere and 192 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:40,880 that somewhere is out in the environment. 193 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:45,160 So the particles shed on the road as you're driving and Rd. 194 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,440 drainage systems mean that a lot of those particles are released 195 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,440 into, well, either into the surrounding environment of the 196 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,400 road or into the river systems that the drainage releases into. 197 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,400 So yes, it is reasonably shocking, I would say, but also 198 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,640 now that we're looking at it, it's not very surprising. 199 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:06,680 I'm struck by how poorly designed designed many plastic 200 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:09,160 products are, having things like bags for life. 201 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,800 I've got a bag for life in my shed and it's, it's clearly 202 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,920 reached the end of its life because it's falling into tiny 203 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,880 little plastic particles. And it, I think it's, and, and 204 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,360 how much plastic we allow to leak into the environment. 205 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,280 And in your article, you say that amount of plastic predicted 206 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,200 to enter the ocean will triple between now and 2040. 207 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,120 So that's, that's another shocking statistic on top of 208 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:32,560 everything that's in there already. 209 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,000 What's going on? Do you know what's going on sort 210 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,760 of nationally and internationally to sort of 211 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,480 tackle that flood of plastics into the environment? 212 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,680 Yeah, I mean, the key thing internationally is the global 213 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:46,520 plastics treaty negotiations that are ongoing. 214 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,960 So this is attempting to come up with a global international 215 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:57,160 treaty that will agree on ways, legally binding ways that we can 216 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,120 reduce the amount of plastic that's released to the 217 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,840 environment. So this covers things like caps 218 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,000 on plastic manufacture, changes to recycling systems and so on. 219 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,240 The issue with the treaty is that all parties have different 220 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,560 priorities when it comes to the things that they want to get out 221 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:18,560 of it and the things that they are and are not willing to do. 222 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:24,120 So those negotiations were due to conclude at the end of 2024. 223 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,880 No agreement was reached and so those negotiations are ongoing. 224 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:33,840 How long that will take and where it will end up, I think 225 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,240 nobody is fully certain yet. So we can hope that there's a 226 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,080 positive outcome from that. But at present, I can't say 227 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:47,560 where or when that will happen. I mean there are other efforts 228 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:51,000 that are ongoing at a much smaller scale, I would say. 229 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,240 So if we think nationally, well, the one of the first things was 230 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,640 the plastic bag tax, which doesn't seem like a big deal, 231 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,440 but there was some evidence to show that that reduced the 232 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,080 amount of plastic bags used annually by 80% quite rapidly. 233 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,320 We've got things like the micro bead ban, which covers micro 234 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,760 beads are added intentionally to cosmetic products that are 235 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,120 designed to be washed off your skin. 236 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:20,960 So things like face scrubs that has obviously had some reduction 237 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,240 in the amount of plastics that are entering the environment. 238 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,120 I think one key thing to note about that ban is that it 239 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,080 doesn't consider products that are designed to be left on your 240 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,480 skin. So there are many cosmetic 241 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,640 products that can still contain plastics, you know, like eye 242 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:38,400 shadows and face creams and things that might have 243 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,520 shimmering that can still contain plastics. 244 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,160 So it's a step, but it's not, you know, going all the way. 245 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,680 And then things like plastic cutlery and plastic straws are 246 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:50,000 now no longer allowed to be used. 247 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,160 So there are small steps that are being made. 248 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,920 And these are also happening in many other countries globally. 249 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,640 But I think if we're actually to have any effect on the amount of 250 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,000 plastic that's being entered, well produced and entering the 251 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,360 environment, it really needs to come from policy makers and 252 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,040 industry. And industry are really the key 253 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,440 players here. And of course, you know, it's 254 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,880 their industry that is creating their revenue. 255 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,600 So they are trying to, you know, needing to work out ways in 256 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,040 which they can still maintain their income but actually have a 257 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,800 beneficial impact by reducing plastics. 258 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,760 And I think that's where the challenge is at the moment. 259 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,360 And there there are alternatives, aren't there? 260 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,440 There are alternative materials we can use to make what you know 261 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,320 what's currently disposable plastics. 262 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,320 We can make container food containers and and wraps for 263 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,520 food and so on. Do you what what is the most 264 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:45,600 promising natural alternatives to plastic to do you think that 265 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:50,040 you've seen? I mean, it is opening a bit of a 266 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,640 can of worms, I think if we talk about biodegradable plastics, 267 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:59,400 because even those are not always as beneficial as they 268 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,000 might claim to be. So there are many studies 269 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,120 showing that some biodegradable plastics can be as hazardous, if 270 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,760 not more hazardous than conventional plastics because a 271 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,640 lot of them are still manufactured in similar ways and 272 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,880 have a lot of the same chemical additives put into them. 273 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,320 And then we have different terminologies. 274 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,680 So we have things like bioplastics that come from 275 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,760 biological feedstocks like starch and potatoes and things, 276 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,640 but are chemically transformed to become a plastic. 277 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,320 So they're actually chemically identical to plastics and they 278 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,280 won't break down. Then we've got biodegradable, 279 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,640 then we've got compostable. And all of these types of 280 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,320 plastics will will behave in different ways. 281 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,640 So I would say it's very difficult to say that there's 282 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:46,120 one key solution in these novel materials. 283 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,320 I mean, there are people who are developing materials out of 284 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,800 seaweeds, for example, that are a lot more natural. 285 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,440 They're not very widely used yet. 286 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,800 So there are, there is scope, but we're not quite there. 287 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,720 I think for alternatives, really it should be things that can be 288 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,200 reused rather than things that will be discarded or recycled or 289 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,200 composted. So things like having a glass 290 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,120 container on the plastic container or having a metal 291 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,760 coffee cup instead of a plastic one, I think that's really the 292 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,160 way we need to be thinking about this system rather than the 293 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,440 disposable way in which we're thinking about it at the moment. 294 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:28,960 And do you think using technology to clean up the seas 295 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,560 is a sort of, do you think there's any future in that, like 296 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,600 you've seen these big schemes where booms float around or and 297 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,720 and scoop up surface plastics or the development of microbes that 298 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,640 can digest plastics. Is that a sort of valid focus 299 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,360 for sort of research and investment? 300 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,480 I mean, you've, you've mentioned 2 very different angles there. 301 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,240 So you've mentioned the booms and the collection of plastics 302 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,240 from the ocean and then the microbial degradation. 303 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,160 And so I'll address those separately. 304 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,760 The collection of plastics from the ocean, I personally don't 305 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,520 feel like it is a widespread solution for plastics in the 306 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,800 ocean because no matter how much they clean up, it's it's nowhere 307 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,000 near the amount that's in the ocean. 308 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,880 It's only collecting things that are floating on the surface. 309 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,000 But we know that actually around 99% of plastics in the ocean are 310 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,760 below the ocean surface. And of course you've got the 311 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,520 carbon footprint issue of huge ships going out into the middle 312 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,880 of the ocean to scoop up plastics and other associated 313 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,720 materials. So potentially, you know, 314 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,400 organisms as well. So I would say we need to 315 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,360 proceed with caution if we're to recommend solutions like that. 316 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,480 You know, I think if we're thinking about cleaning up, then 317 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,560 possibly some of the better solution or solutions or actions 318 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,320 that we can take are on a more individual level. 319 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,520 So community groups going out and doing cleanups. 320 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,920 It's not necessarily going to, you know, it's definitely not 321 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,160 going to solve the global problem, but it raises people's 322 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,000 awareness. It makes people see what's out 323 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,720 there in the environment, how they as individuals and 324 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,520 communities might be able to make a difference. 325 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,000 So I am in favour of of community cleanups. 326 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:12,520 You talked a bit about microbial degradation and that's something 327 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,440 that we are looking into a little bit here at the NBA. 328 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,520 Actually, one of my PhD students, Marine Fleeler, is 329 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,480 going to be looking at whether there are microbes that can 330 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,680 degrade certain types of plastics in association with 331 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:26,760 organisms as well in the environment. 332 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,440 Again, at a very large scale. That's unlikely to be a solution 333 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,160 that we can implement because we can't, you know, we can't just 334 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,840 put microbes into the environment without there being 335 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,880 some sort of ecological effect of that. 336 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,720 But whether in the future we could develop some sort of 337 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:50,080 degradation plants, let's say that are representative of, you 338 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,760 know, it could be a recycling a facility or a waste management 339 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,160 facility. And then we've got a microbial 340 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,920 degradation facility for some of the compostable and 341 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,120 biodegradable plastics, then maybe that could be something 342 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,120 that would work its way into our future systems. 343 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,360 So there are ways in which we can deal with this. 344 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:08,640 But I would say actually as it currently stands, we really need 345 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,880 to be thinking about this top of the chain approach to preventing 346 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,280 the production and the release of plastics into the environment 347 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,040 rather than trying to create all these solutions for cleaning it 348 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,440 up. Because ultimately, how much is 349 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,720 out there is is way more than we can ever deal with. 350 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,360 How does plastic get into the food chain? 351 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,440 We've heard it gets into the food chain and various sort of 352 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,920 facts come up in the news about how much we're carrying around 353 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,640 in our bodies and so on. How to get into the food chain? 354 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,040 What are some of the effects it can have once inside an 355 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,640 Organism? And is there any reason to 356 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,400 believe that humans are less vulnerable to impacts from 357 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,840 microplastics? Yeah. 358 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:51,320 So the key route of entry for any animal or human really is 359 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,600 ingestion of plastics. So if we're thinking about 360 00:19:54,600 --> 00:20:00,720 marine organisms and ecosystems at the variety of scales 361 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,480 plastics can be ingested. So we see and historically have 362 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,960 seen a lot in the media about these sort of charismatic 363 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,960 megafauna that are ingesting plastic bags, for example. 364 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,480 So seals ingesting plastic bags because they can't very easily 365 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,600 distinguish the plastic bag from a jellyfish that would be as 366 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,160 natural food source for example. So organisms unintentionally 367 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,960 ingesting plastics. If we're thinking about 368 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,400 microplastics, then it's essentially the same but on a 369 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,840 much smaller scale. So we've got organisms that are 370 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:36,040 seeing microplastics and their planktonic food all in the same 371 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,800 system. They're not very easily able to 372 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,480 differentiate between these different types of particles, so 373 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,120 we'll just eat a lot of everything that's in the 374 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,720 environment. And the trouble with plastics is 375 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,720 that once they're internalised within the gut, then it can be 376 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,000 quite difficult for those to be egested again. 377 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,480 So they end up trapped within the gut and possibly even 378 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,680 entering into the tissue of that Organism. 379 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,200 If we're looking at organisms at the bottom of the food chain, 380 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,240 especially things like plankton, large volumes of these we know 381 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,320 get ingested by higher trophic organisms. 382 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,240 So plankton will be ingested by fish, which will be ingested by 383 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,920 birds and so on. And that leads to this bio 384 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,960 accumulation of plastics and their associated chemicals into 385 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,360 these organisms that are higher up in the trophic web. 386 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,240 And of course that's where we as humans are ingesting these these 387 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,200 organisms. So things like very large 388 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,600 predatory fish like tuna and so on can end up carrying loads of 389 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,480 plastics and contaminants that are associated with those. 390 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,280 So that's one route for humans to ingest plastics. 391 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,960 Another one is just the fact that we're surrounded by 392 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,720 plastics all day every day. So, you know, the clothes we 393 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,080 wear, the things we are handling everyday, you know, our 394 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,720 technology, our cars and so on, are all made of plastic or have 395 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,720 plastic parts within them. And those, as we use them, shed 396 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,200 smaller and smaller pieces. So we can be ingesting those as 397 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,560 they land on our food. They might be in our food 398 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,240 already incorporated because they're seafood, for example. 399 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,880 But also we're inhaling those particles because we know that 400 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,360 those are around us in the air that we're breathing. 401 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:15,240 So there are many routes in which humans can be exposed to 402 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,960 plastics. In terms of the effects of these 403 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,680 plastics, they vary a lot depending on the species that 404 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,000 we're thinking of and also the shape and size of the particle, 405 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,840 for example. But it has been shown that 406 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,760 plastics can have a variety of different hazardous effects to 407 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,000 organisms. So in terms of by accumulation, 408 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,960 we then see immune responses developing, changes in hormone 409 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,720 production, these things that can affect the growth of the 410 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:53,400 Organism and the reproduction and even DNA damage and cell 411 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,760 damage as a result of particles associating or entering the 412 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,920 cells. So we do know that there are 413 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,040 potentially quite harmful consequences of those. 414 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:07,720 And that would not be any different for humans because, 415 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,960 you know, biologically a lot of those processes are very similar 416 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,080 in terms of hormones and cells and DNA. 417 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:16,840 Not so much research has been done on human health and 418 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,880 microplastics, but it's definitely a very, very rapidly 419 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,160 developing field. And I would say it's something 420 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,080 that we should be concerned about. 421 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,280 You know, I'm not telling everybody to go out like 422 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,480 panicking and screaming around, but it's something that I think 423 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,840 we need to be aware of in terms of our exposure to plastics 424 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,840 because, you know, plastics have been around on such a short time 425 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,000 scale proportional to human life. 426 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,720 You know, they've not even really been commercially used 427 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,920 for a whole generation because you know, 1950s to now with the 428 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,560 75 years of commercial plastic use, there are people alive who 429 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,440 never plastics when they were born. 430 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,880 And I think for that reason we can't really assess the effects 431 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,000 of plastics throughout a whole lifespan of a person. 432 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,160 And so that is is quite worrying considering how much we use of 433 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,680 plastic these days. But the research can only 434 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,840 continue and can help us to improve our knowledge of that, 435 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,320 to understand how we might be able to mitigate our exposure. 436 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,400 So it's the one pretty difficult question. 437 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,280 Is the one kind of single action a person can take to reduce 438 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,040 their exposure to micro plastics. 439 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,520 Well, there are a few, but I'd say if I was going to say one, I 440 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,960 would say think about the soft furnishings and materials that 441 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,840 you have within your house. So things like your carpets, 442 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:43,800 your sofas, your bedding, your clothes and all those things 443 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,160 because one of the most predominantly found particle 444 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,280 shapes in the environment is fibres. 445 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,200 So micro fibres and those are all derived from textiles. 446 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,880 So all the things I've just mentioned. 447 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,280 Of course inside your house you're in an enclosed system 448 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,840 essentially you're closed off from the world. 449 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,840 So you know, sometimes on a sunny day you can see a beam of 450 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,200 light coming through the window and you see all those dust motes 451 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,320 floating around in the air. Now a lot of those will be micro 452 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,560 plastics if you have plastic furnishings in your house. 453 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,400 So things like polyester and nylon are common ones that you'd 454 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,480 find in in soft furnishings. So I would say, you know, it can 455 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,320 be quite expensive to buy natural materials instead of 456 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,240 plastics, but where you can just start thinking about using those 457 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,080 natural materials instead of these synthetic ones, because 458 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,720 especially inside inside buildings, it's really notable 459 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,360 the exposure. Yeah. 460 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,720 Interesting, I thought you were going to say drinking water but. 461 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,680 No, I mean that I could. I could list many drinking 462 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,560 water's. Interesting, because I've done a 463 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:55,160 study on drinking water in the past and our study deduced that 464 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,640 actually you're more likely to be exposed to plastics in 465 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,600 drinking water from plastic bottles, so like mineral water 466 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,920 in bottles, than you are from tap water because of the bottle 467 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,000 itself. So if you're buying water that's 468 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,400 in a plastic bottle, you think it will be pristine because it's 469 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,560 come from a spring up a mountain somewhere. 470 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,800 But actually the fact that it's been packaged isn't in lending 471 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,520 it to be more contaminated than water that's gone through such a 472 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,200 rigorous treatment process before it reaches our tap. 473 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,240 It's actually less contaminated. I've sort. 474 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,120 Of touched on this before. How important is consumer 475 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:34,520 awareness in tackling marine plastic pollution and, and do 476 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,080 you think, I think we we did touch on this and do you think 477 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,520 real significant change in the amount of plastics in the 478 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,400 environment has come from above from regulation? 479 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:53,080 Yeah, I think like people, power is important and can have great 480 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,880 impact on the way in which things are done. 481 00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:02,680 So I think for society to be aware of plastics and willing 482 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,920 and eager to change the way in which plastics are used is 483 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,480 really important. So I think part of the messaging 484 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,760 that I try and get across as a scientist is that we can, 485 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,600 individually, you can make a small difference whether you're 486 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,760 reducing the amount of plastic you use, whether you're doing 487 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,400 cleanups, whether you're simply just communicating this to your 488 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,480 wider friends and family. However, that isn't the 489 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,760 solution. I think long term it does have 490 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,200 to come from above. So, you know, society can do as 491 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,360 much as they like. And I think we're very 492 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:36,480 privileged in the Western society because we have the 493 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,320 opportunity to go plastic free in a lot of instances. 494 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,280 Whereas if we look at a lot of developing countries, often they 495 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,280 won't have access to foods that aren't wrapped in plastics or 496 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,200 cosmetic products or care products that don't have 497 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,360 plastics. And they just often will, you 498 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,440 know, take what's available on their local market, for example. 499 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,080 So I think we need to be aware that the actions that we are 500 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,600 able to take in our country are very different to what a lot of 501 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,320 people globally will be able to do. 502 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,440 And I think, you know, really it's these huge conglomerates 503 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,400 that are producing, mass producing this plastic for the 504 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:18,120 variety of needs that we'll need to be thinking actually what can 505 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:20,920 we do that's a bit different? How can we recycle more? 506 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,840 How can we make products that are reusable that can go back 507 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,640 into a system? So things like the deposit 508 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,280 return schemes where you can put your bottle back in and get your 509 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,760 deposit back and thinking about how things can be reused, well, 510 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,320 firstly not produced as much, then reused and then recycled. 511 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,240 So it's that classic reduce, reuse, recycle. 512 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,560 So firstly reduce what you're producing. 513 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,880 If you can't reduce it, then at least reuse it. 514 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,200 And recycling should be the final resort. 515 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,680 But I think the way it stands at the moment is recycling is sort 516 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,160 of the default in a lot of cases. 517 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,400 And even then, we know that the recycling system isn't perfect. 518 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,720 And a lot of things that are supposed to be recycled often 519 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,080 can't be because they're dirty or they're contaminated and it 520 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,440 just doesn't work within the system that exists. 521 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,520 So I think the only solution really is through industry, but 522 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,200 they might need a prompt from policy, which is why I think 523 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,280 policy is really key as well. So you're clearly really engaged 524 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:21,680 with the sort of impacts of your research and that sort of policy 525 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,240 implications and so on. So how do you sort of how do you 526 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,520 work out that balance between wanting to get in the lab and do 527 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,720 science and then the sort of the kind of policy and apply side of 528 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,400 it? I mean, I think I would say 529 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,920 day-to-day, the science and the hands on element is is my bread 530 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,440 and butter. So that's what I'm doing. 531 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,200 But I will take opportunities where they present themselves to 532 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,280 communicate science all the way from primary school children to 533 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,040 government, you know, wherever possible. 534 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,440 So often it's, you know, taking invitations to go and visit 535 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,880 groups or to go and give presentations at different, 536 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,080 different events. Sometimes it is reaching out to 537 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,440 somebody and saying, you know, I've got a, a piece of data that 538 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,200 I think is really key. So for example, putting out a 539 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,640 press release or communicating about a piece of research that 540 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,480 I've done where that's appropriate. 541 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,080 But I would say, you know, day-to-day it's about gathering 542 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,320 that data. You can only communicate so much 543 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,680 without actually doing the work. So I think the the science comes 544 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,880 first and the communication is just a natural result of that. 545 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,560 And I think it's really because this is such a high profile 546 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,160 topic that I find it's very easy to communicate it because people 547 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,400 are interested and people already know a little bit and 548 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,640 they want to know more. So I think that works a lot in 549 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,120 my favour when it comes to speaking to people about this 550 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,080 issue, that people are very receptive generally. 551 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,080 What would be your advice to a young person who's considering a 552 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,840 career in marine biology? I think I would say take any 553 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:06,000 opportunity that you can that's available to you to try things 554 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,960 out and do things that are interesting. 555 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,360 So if you're able to do volunteering, I think that's 556 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,200 really beneficial because it gives you an experience of 557 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,480 working within an environment, whether it's overseas or in the 558 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,720 UK. So I've worked at a couple of 559 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,280 aquaria where I've just done, you know, technician work behind 560 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,480 the scenes, cleaning tanks and things just to get a sort of 561 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,840 hands on feeling of working in a watery experimental sort of 562 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,000 environment. Which really helped me to 563 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:38,720 understand really what it's like to work within a sort of hands 564 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,640 on environment for that kind of research. 565 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,760 And I think do what interests you because you have to be open 566 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,920 to going in different directions. 567 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,800 And I think if you're too rigid in exactly what you want to do 568 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,200 it, it may be closes off other opportunities to you. 569 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,120 So you might see an opportunity that's maybe not exactly what 570 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,240 you were thinking that you wanted to do, but it could lead 571 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,120 on to something else. That's really interesting. 572 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,960 So almost with me taking that microblastics job in the first 573 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,320 instance, it wasn't that I was looking for a job in 574 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,800 microplastics because I didn't really know what that was. 575 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,400 I just took it because it sounded quite interesting. 576 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,280 And it's ended up leading from where I was then to where I am 577 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,440 now. And I could never have predicted 578 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,200 that. So I think just be open to 579 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:25,720 opportunities, I would say. Great. 580 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,440 Well, we're going to follow your research with interest, Alice, 581 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,760 and we're going to be hopefully having more articles from you in 582 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,400 the magazine. Yeah. 583 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,880 So thank you very much Doctor Alice Horton, and all the best 584 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,880 for your research here. Great. 585 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,240 Thank you for having me. It's great to chat. 586 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,840 Enjoy this podcast? Why not become a member of the 587 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,600 Marine Biological Association and become part of a global 588 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,360 community advocating for the ocean? 589 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,480 You'll receive full, beautiful copies of our magazine annually, 590 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,040 The Marine Biologist, as well as receive a host of other 591 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:02,440 benefits. Simply join us at www.mba.ac.uk.