1 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,440 Hi, I'm Helen Avery with the Green Finance Institute and 2 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,280 you're listening to Financing Nature. 3 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,360 In this episode, I'm joined by Tom Curtis, founding partner of 4 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,600 Three Keel and the Landscape Enterprise Networks, or Lens. 5 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,600 The fields, the farms and the landscapes where your crops are 6 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,240 grown, they're basically they're an extension of your factory 7 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,120 production line, aren't they? So if those fields, farms and 8 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,040 landscapes are kind of struggling because of poor soils 9 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,360 or water logging or drought or costs of inputs, essentially 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,080 that's your production line that's struggling. 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,720 And and it's the kind of vital signs of resilience really. 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,240 You know, you know, how reliable are livelihoods. 13 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,800 If the farmers livelihoods are insecure, then then again, your 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,240 supply chain, just practical purposes, your supply chain is 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,840 not secure. The more we can put risk numbers 16 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:05,720 and then financial numbers on that resilience so that 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,920 businesses can understand what costs they're exposed to if they 18 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,160 don't take action on that, the more the more they can calibrate 19 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,400 and engage on that fundamental resilience perspective. 20 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,000 Hello, hello. I hope you're having a lovely 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,880 day wherever you are and whatever you're doing. 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,480 I'm going to be joined today by Tom Curtis of Three Keel and 23 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,280 we're going to be talking about the lens model and that's 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,120 landscape Enterprise networks and they bring together 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,320 companies that share landscapes to collectively pay farmers. 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,120 Farmers in particular that is to make environmental improvements 27 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,760 to support with business resilience and their Scope 3 28 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,680 reporting. And it's a model that has been 29 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,920 successfully rolled out across Europe. 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,240 It did start in the UK and we'll be talking about that and also 31 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,360 what we need to really take these collective action models 32 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:14,320 to scale. Tom, thank you so much for 33 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,760 joining us today from sunny Oxford. 34 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,040 It is sunny. It's such a pleasure, Helen. 35 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,840 Thanks so much for inviting me. I'm super excited to talk to you 36 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,520 today about landscape enterprise networks and all the great work 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,360 that they're doing in terms of mobilising private sector 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,800 investment into lots of environmental outcome delivery 39 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,480 that we'll go into more detail about. 40 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,080 But first of all, it'd just be really great to know a little 41 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,440 bit more about you. What's your background? 42 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,800 How did you end up Co founding 3 Keel? 43 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:46,280 And then we'll go into how Lens came out of that. 44 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,600 So, yeah, I started out actually in, in forestry, initially 45 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,120 trained in forestry and worked for quite some time in inch 46 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,080 woodland restoration. After that I, I was interested 47 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,920 in forests and the and other landscapes as well. 48 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:03,960 So I swayed to some people to say, let me take on managing a 49 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,080 sort of farm, a mixed estate based in Oxfordshire in my 30s. 50 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,160 And yeah, I was interested in resilience, sustainable Land 51 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,520 Management and I guess set up 3 kill because I was aware that 52 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,040 it's not just about how you manage the land, it's about how 53 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,040 you manage the supply chains that come into the land. 54 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,800 It's about the, you know, wider commercial relationships with 55 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,720 land that that gives us the pattern of of our landscapes as 56 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,200 much as what we do as land managers. 57 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:29,520 So yeah, like that. Really. 58 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,360 So, so talk us through three kill and then how Lens came out 59 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,160 of three kill. Sure thing. 60 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,080 Yeah. Well, three Q is it's a 61 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,160 sustainability business or AB Corp social purpose business. 62 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,720 We started out about 12 years ago. 63 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,160 We work largely in food supply chains, although not 64 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,000 exclusively. And we do a lot of work around 65 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,520 kind of managing sustainability as sort of incoming risks to 66 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,120 businesses. So we manage our analyse 67 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,960 business risk essentially as a means of getting organisations 68 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,320 to really spend their kind of deep money on sustainability and 69 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:02,880 think structurally about what they do. 70 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,320 And through that work, as I'm imagining, but tell me if I'm 71 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,560 wrong, that it was through that work, working with businesses 72 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,400 that you could see there was this need for a model perhaps 73 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,640 that worked for businesses to be able to pay farmers or land 74 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,079 managers to deliver for the businesses, business resilience. 75 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,760 So yeah, can you sort of for those who don't know about 76 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,960 landscape enterprise networks and lenses, they call for short, 77 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,040 could you just give us the the explainer on what they do? 78 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,960 Actually, it's interesting, you know, it just sort of wind back 79 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,800 a bit in a, in a sense it, it absolutely, yes, came out of 80 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,520 experience in Breekeel that businesses have needs, they have 81 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,760 dependencies, practical dependencies on landscapes. 82 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,440 They need product into their factories from landscapes or, or 83 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,240 they might be flooded from landscapes or there might be a 84 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,400 water company interested in raw water quality, that sort of 85 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,360 stuff. But I mean, the, the roots of 86 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,800 them started when I was managing a farm really, you know, I was 87 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,680 aware when I was managing a farm in Oxfordshire that we were 88 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,480 managing it in what we call now regenerative way in many 89 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,400 respects, you know, extended rotation. 90 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,360 We had animals on temporary grass lathes within the 91 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,640 rotation, reducing inputs, building resilience across the 92 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,120 whole farm system in essence. And the reason we were doing it 93 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,320 was because we wanted to kind of manage the volatility of our 94 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,680 finances. There were lots of lots of, you 95 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,880 know, high returns, but high costs and a lot of volatility 96 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,680 which meant margin was always a bit hairy. 97 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,640 And I guess we were doing that and I was I was kind of aware 98 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,160 that our off takers who were benefiting practically from what 99 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,400 we were doing or could benefit practically from what we were 100 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,960 doing. There were water company, local 101 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,840 communities, in essence, you know, we were providing more 102 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:46,520 reliable crop. We're also not our soils weren't 103 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,480 washing down into rivers or onto roads. 104 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,040 You know, there's value being that we were delivering, but 105 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,360 there wasn't a mechanism for the king people up to transact with 106 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,280 us, to connect with us, to work with us in that investment on 107 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:00,200 that farm. And we didn't really connect 108 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,200 with the food manufacturers that were using it. 109 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,840 And even if they had connected with us, we were only one farm. 110 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:08,600 We were only one small part of the their problem, if you like, 111 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,400 or you'd see to build resilience. 112 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,040 And I guess the other thing was that for anyone one of those 113 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,720 businesses, it wouldn't have made business sense for them to 114 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,760 have invested in our resilience or that landscape's resilience. 115 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,520 But if they all acted together, it made absolute sense for every 116 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,200 single one of them to invest. There's a problem, there's a 117 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,800 challenge and collective action here essentially and that we're 118 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,080 trying to address with Lens. Well, that's super interesting 119 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,520 because you're saying it sort of came from like the grassroots up 120 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,600 from the ground up from the farmer level up this idea. 121 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:42,840 And then I, I suppose sort of married with the experience that 122 00:06:42,840 --> 00:06:45,520 you're having in 3K working with the supply chain that the model 123 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:46,560 emerged. Tell us how you know. 124 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,560 How did it end up happening? And in essence, when we set up 3 125 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,880 Kill, I was pretty, it was a thing I had on my mind, a 126 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,160 mechanism like lens that would connect up those interests and 127 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,440 connect them with farmers. And so the way it happened was 128 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,400 that, yes, 3 Kill, we worked with lots of food companies. 129 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,280 We've worked for a very long time with Nestle. 130 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,000 So we contacted Nestle and talked to them about our idea 131 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,760 basically. And Nestle have a factory up in 132 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,120 Cumbria. It's a it's a dairy processing 133 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,400 factory and they're interested in managing reliability and 134 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,920 resilience of, of the farmers in their supply shed around that 135 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:19,680 factory, essentially the dairy farms. 136 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,480 And we talked to them about how they might build that resilience 137 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,480 through investing in farms, investing in soils, investing in 138 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,040 farm systems, investing in nature based solutions that 139 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,360 would would bolster the reliability of supply 140 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,080 essentially for, for Nessay and also address things like scope 141 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,080 through emissions and farmer livelihoods essentially. 142 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,600 And, and we put it to them that perhaps they might be able to do 143 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,920 that and transact that they might want to do it in 144 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,200 conjunction with others in the landscape. 145 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,000 And in particular, we suggested maybe with United Utilities, the 146 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,480 water company that that actually was, had different needs and 147 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,080 interest to them in that landscape. 148 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,480 They were interested in Bosphorus management and 149 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,560 localised flood risk management. But actually the same solutions 150 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,720 on those farms would be solutions for United Utilities 151 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,320 as well As for Nestle. We kind of hatched this idea of 152 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,880 calling it a landscape enterprise network and that's 153 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:09,480 they said, yeah, well, let's give it a whirl. 154 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,720 And, and we thought, well, that's great. 155 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,080 And we were naive enough to think it would be really 156 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,080 straightforward. It isn't at all. 157 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,400 But we got the two to collaboratively fund common 158 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,480 interest solutions in in that landscape. 159 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,320 And and that's kind of how it kicked off, really. 160 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,000 And maybe we'll come back to how you manage those complexities 161 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,880 because you say you've got in that particular model in Cumbria 162 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,920 and I know we'll talk about some of the other models across 163 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,480 Europe. You just say you've got 2 sort 164 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:34,960 of corporate entities, if you will. 165 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,400 And then I mean, how many farmers are in the in the mix in 166 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:39,559 that one, do you know? Yeah. 167 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,400 A few dozen farmers essentially were involved and they were, 168 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,560 they were working with with first milk at the time who, who 169 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:48,840 were the people who coordinate that work for, for Nestle 170 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,480 essentially so. Right. 171 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:55,200 So, yeah, a lot of contracting between those lots of parties to 172 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,240 bring together really certainly on the farming front if it's a 173 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,400 few dozen farmers. So before we sort of go into 174 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,240 like how does it work, you know, what have the challenges been? 175 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,080 Could you just sort of give an overview for everyone listening 176 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:12,000 of the models that you do have working and the sort of success 177 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,920 story behind it? Because I know it's been 178 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,120 difficult. As you say, it wasn't an easy 179 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,960 thing to do, but you've got the first one off the ground and 180 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,080 then since have added several. So well, so Lenz, it's, it's 181 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,200 operating across several countries in Europe now. 182 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,640 So we've got really live ones where there are transactions 183 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,640 happening in East of England. That's probably our our most 184 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,880 active one actually most live one biggest one in in Yorkshire. 185 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,080 We're operating in in the Leven in Scotland, we're operating in 186 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,320 West Wales. We're also operating in Poland 187 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,640 in Northeast Italy, up in the Veneto region in Italy where we 188 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,480 work with the Prosecco consortium along with others and 189 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,880 then in Transdanubia, which is sort of Western Hungary. 190 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,800 So quite, quite a range of of countries. 191 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,360 We're also exploring Lens in other places, but those, those 192 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,280 are the really live ones we've transacted yet quite a lot. 193 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:08,840 And since 2020, €137,000,000, those have all gone directly 194 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,520 into farms. That's total number that's gone 195 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,920 to farmers to pay for measures on farms that are building 196 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,840 resilience, building regenerative agricultural 197 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,840 systems and nature waste solutions operating this year 198 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,520 across about 80,000 hectares. Also we report on carbon as 199 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,640 well. So it's about last year, I think 200 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,680 it was 49,000 tonnes of carbon were some questions all reduced 201 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:32,320 through the work that we do. So it's it's scaling and it 202 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,320 scales every year. It gets bigger every year, yeah. 203 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:35,840 Yeah. I know last time we spoke you 204 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,800 mentioned how you anticipate sort of just at the current rate 205 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,720 without even any sort of an injection of investment into the 206 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,200 lens model for scoping etcetera that you'd anticipated will 207 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,160 double every year the number of transactions. 208 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,240 That's been the experience to date. 209 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:51,520 Yeah. I mean, if you carried on doing 210 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,440 that well, do the maths, it would, it would be. 211 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:55,920 I mean, there's, there's a big need. 212 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,960 And when you can crack that kind of collective action challenge 213 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,000 and get, you know, collaborative funding into a landscape and put 214 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,000 it out to farmers to do practical measures that bring 215 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,840 about genuine transformation, genuine change to the risk 216 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,520 metrics and the carbon metrics, then everyone wins. 217 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,120 And what I love about Lens is that, you know, it is kind of 218 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,400 the solution that we're all looking for is how do you create 219 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,040 the revenue model? How do you get buyers to 220 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,200 transact with the sellers who are effectively land managers or 221 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:25,520 farmers or they might be communities. 222 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,880 I mean, you could replace farmers with with any land 223 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:30,880 manager really, couldn't you? I suppose. 224 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,680 And then and yeah, there. And how do you bring corporates 225 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:37,560 together around a landscape and have like a regional impact? 226 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:41,760 So maybe you could sort of share with us what are the challenges 227 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,240 around that model? Because in theory it sounds 228 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,000 easy, doesn't it? Or you just go into a landscape 229 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,360 and there are several corporates who all have shared interests. 230 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,200 And then you go to the land managers and ask them to deliver 231 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,800 communities or the farmers ask them to deliver. 232 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,200 Oh, how simple that would be, as you say, but it but it's just 233 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,400 not. So can you share with us some of 234 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,120 the journey that you've gone on? Because I sort of think of all 235 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:07,320 all the models that I've seen, you've really nailed how you do 236 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,160 this quite swiftly and how you manage all those contracts that 237 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,360 are, you know, bilateral contracts effectively if I've 238 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,360 understood correctly. Or multilateral. 239 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,880 Contracts, that's right, that's. That's that's it, yeah. 240 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,920 I mean the the challenges are exactly as as you say, you've 241 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,040 got to get underneath the skin of what the demand is from 242 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:25,720 businesses. You know, what's their problem 243 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,640 statement, what's what are their issues? 244 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,520 And it's usually not just one. You need to be able to figure 245 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,280 out where those to overlap in a, in a landscape and overlap with, 246 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,200 you know, common interest solutions. 247 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,360 And then you've got to get out to a whole range of farmers and 248 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,480 come up with practical things that are meaningful on those 249 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,120 farms that actually will move the dialogue demand 250 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,040 specification on the need of needs of the buyers, 251 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,320 essentially. I mean, there's various elements 252 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,360 to it. Partly it's complexity and scale 253 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:55,400 in dealing with 10s of thousands of transactions, which so it's 254 00:12:55,400 --> 00:13:00,120 about being really systematic, but it's also about being super 255 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:01,920 business. Like this is about commerce 256 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,400 essentially we're cutting commercial transactions here. 257 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,960 We're not trying to get people to fund things because it's the 258 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,960 right thing to do. We're doing it because it's 259 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,240 important to their business. And from the farmers 260 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,880 perspective, they're doing it because it invests in their 261 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,400 business, it gets them to where they need to get to and also 262 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,360 they're responding to a customer need essentially. 263 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,840 So we have to be transactional about it as well. 264 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,960 That's really critical and if if you're not like that, then you 265 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,560 just get lost in good words and good intentions and you don't 266 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:29,320 get to transaction points essentially. 267 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,040 And I guess the other thing, the other element that's really 268 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,680 important in terms of success, I think is, is recognising that 269 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:38,560 these are that there's a network, there's a human network 270 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:41,360 here that needs to be brought together, building trust and 271 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,080 understanding and expertise over time that again enables you to 272 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,360 achieve really high quality results whilst also transacting 273 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,080 and then also reporting against it. 274 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,440 So I don't know if that quite answers your question, but no. 275 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:55,520 It does, it does. And that point you make at the 276 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,000 end, I think I remember when we've spoken before that you've 277 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,360 said one of the things that's come out of lens that maybe you 278 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,400 weren't anticipating is that relationship between the buyers. 279 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,040 You said when you're a farmer, you, you, the crop goes on a 280 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,720 truck and off it goes. And that relationship maybe 281 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,160 doesn't get developed. But actually this these have 282 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,920 sort of brought together farmer at one end and the business at 283 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,120 the other. Completely. 284 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,600 So we, we specifically, I mean that's partly why it's so 285 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,520 important to do this regionally. So actually people talk with one 286 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,600 another and we specifically make efforts to curate those meetings 287 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,200 have get togethers throughout farming season essentially where 288 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,160 you see that farmers talking with their off takers, talking 289 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,320 with the water companies, the water companies, talking to the 290 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,440 off takers, the food manufacturers. 291 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,840 It builds a sense of well, it builds that understanding of 292 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,760 where collective problems or collective solutions that we can 293 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,720 work around. But alongside that critically, 294 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,120 it's not just that soft stuff. It is about having really well 295 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,280 embedded, well managed systematic brokering systems and 296 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,440 then contracts. Contracts that do that multi 297 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,680 party job and are efficient and people can rely on them but at 298 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,200 the same time aren't so complex and legalistic that they put 299 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,400 everyone off. Yeah. 300 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,520 Well, no, it's so practical and yet delivers for the environment 301 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,680 and for what businesses want and for what farmers want. 302 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,840 It's it hits everything we need. Can I just touch something you 303 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,960 mentioned earlier was about multiple buyers, I suppose or 304 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,880 payers of the ecosystem services that the farmers can deliver. 305 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,640 Can you just sort of share with us why that is needed and it 306 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,360 needs to be this collective action? 307 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,360 Yeah. I mean, and it's not all of 308 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,600 them, but it just it's important on various levels. 309 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,480 I mean the first most simple is that it enables organisations to 310 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,720 share costs essentially and that opens up solutions that wouldn't 311 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,200 be have a cost benefit analysis that makes sense for one of 312 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,240 those buyers. But when you put them together, 313 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,360 it's actually a cost effective means of doing things. 314 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,760 So that's really important. But then the second thing that's 315 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,440 super important and it comes back to how, you know how you 316 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,320 manage your farm is that you manage a whole farm system. 317 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,800 You don't just manage 1 crop. And so having resilient 318 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,440 regenerative wheat doesn't sort of make sense in and of itself. 319 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,480 It's about what other crops are there in that rotation. 320 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,760 What else are you doing across that farm that actually as a 321 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,640 whole makes the farm, makes the crops work together, makes your 322 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,800 sewer management, the regime and plan makes sense and your 323 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,760 nutrient management makes sense and also water management makes 324 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,520 sense. And so, so actually, if you want 325 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,440 to ask farmers coherent question or, or give them a coherent 326 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,080 specification for shifting the resilience of their farm 327 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,080 systems, you have to be asking it from the perspective of 328 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,880 multiple crops and others who aren't interested in crops. 329 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,040 You have to ask the full question, and that involves 330 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,640 multiple funders. I guess there's no maximum 331 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,680 number of funders you could have in a landscape. 332 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,600 And we've talked before about could you take like a whole 333 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,680 region like East Anglia and have infrastructure companies like 334 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,840 the highways and Network Rail who are going to be benefiting 335 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,320 as well from reduced flood risk or reduced water shortage risk. 336 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,400 What's your sort of view on how how far it could go? 337 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,080 I mean, ultimately, if you've got a mechanism that can do 338 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,760 those contracts and you've got willing farmers, land managers 339 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,680 to deliver, you can go anywhere. But, but tell us. 340 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,960 I think absolutely the more the better and particularly cross 341 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,200 sector, it really works and it really helps because then they 342 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,079 they really are funding different for different reasons, 343 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:20,680 but the same solutions. I think the reason why I think 344 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,520 yes, you could just do it with all the sectors that had a 345 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:28,400 practical, you know, material interest in those outcomes is 346 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,640 because within lens, we're not trying to pile all of those 347 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,360 organisations into each and every transaction in the on each 348 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:36,360 and every farm. It's kind of, it's like a set of 349 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,480 overlapping and less overlapping Venn diagrams, if you saw what I 350 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,000 mean. A lens region is made-up of a 351 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,600 live set of multiple transactions essentially, and 352 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,920 not everyone's involved in every single transaction or every 353 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,600 single part of every transaction. 354 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,760 So you've got optimised transactions, multiples of them 355 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,520 across the region. We build complexity over time 356 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,440 and that's that's how you absolutely patch those other 357 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,400 sectors in. So, yeah, if if there was, I 358 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,560 don't know, Network Rail or highways interested in in 359 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,320 transacting something in conjunction with some of our 360 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,840 food manufacturing players that that might only be happening in 361 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,600 one one area where they've got a particular flood risk issue or 362 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,160 there's a particular development that people are wanting to 363 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,920 unlock or something like that. They're not transacting across 364 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,400 the whole region. So it's made-up of multiple 365 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,240 transactions. So that's how we do it. 366 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,560 That's how you build that up. And yeah, the more the better. 367 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,160 Yeah, yeah, I love it. It's really a way of tackling a 368 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,960 whole regional or large landscape challenge, which can 369 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,920 be very complex as you say, because not everyone's solution 370 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,680 will be delivered by exactly the same farmer, exact same time of 371 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,480 year and. And Helen, that's really 372 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,440 important for real time resilience and sustainability 373 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,800 issues, you know, having really top line overarching silver 374 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,680 bullet solutions that don't take account of the granularity of, 375 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,520 of actually what needs to happen on the ground is just hiding to 376 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,040 nothing. You know, I don't think what 377 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,400 lens or mechanisms similar to lens need to be able to do and 378 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,000 do do in the case of lens is take a relatively simple widget 379 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:10,320 and and repeat it up across the landscape, repeat it multiple 380 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,440 times, but have a basic, a fundamentally simple system 381 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:22,040 that's achieving that. So maybe let's sort of bring a 382 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,240 bit of colour to the projects that are happening by talking 383 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,120 about the demand drivers. And one of the big challenges 384 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,280 that we face with these revenue models is, well, how do you get 385 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,840 corporates engaged? How do you get an off taker to 386 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,120 start paying for XYZ? So could you sort of share with 387 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:42,600 us what those demand drivers are, what type of companies are 388 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,000 paying and why they're paying? And and then also what are the 389 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,520 environmental outcomes that they're that they're they're 390 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,360 seeking? Sure thing. 391 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:53,480 Yeah, yeah, East of England on my mind. 392 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,040 I suppose they're, we're working with a number of range of 393 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,480 different companies. But we've got Purina, which is 394 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,040 Ted food manufacturer. They they're interested in 395 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:03,960 getting supplies of wheat from that landscape. 396 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,640 We've got Anglian Water, they're interested in water quality and 397 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,840 they're also interested in quantity. 398 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,960 So water resource essentially. We've got British sugar, they're 399 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,160 interested in again in reliable supply of of sugar beets from 400 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,160 that landscape. We've got a range of different 401 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,880 organisations. I guess they're the off takes 402 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,360 the food manufacturers that we're dealing with, they're 403 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:28,400 interested in reliable supply of crop and they're interested in 404 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,920 reportable GHE essentially scope 3 emissions. 405 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,400 That's what's going on there. And from from Anglian waters 406 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,240 perspective in that context, they're interested in, in the 407 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,840 landscape factors that can impact on water quality and 408 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,360 water resource. So just practical things like 409 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,080 that. And so then our job is to figure 410 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,320 out where they're common technical solutions that land in 411 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,520 the same locations that they're all interested in basically, or 412 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,480 various. And they're interested in a lot 413 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,000 of our transaction across all of our regions of Europe, common 414 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,560 factories or all of them involve food manufacturers to date. 415 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,200 Essentially, it's part of the flavour or what we do. 416 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,840 It's, it doesn't define exactly how lens would operate 417 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,680 everywhere, but it's kind of critical. 418 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,600 And food, they they come together and it's part will 419 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,160 always be important for humanity and. 420 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,840 Certainly Prosecco and. Certainly Prosecco. 421 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,680 Exactly. I think viticulture is a theme 422 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,600 that I'm very keen to expand across. 423 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,120 I mean, essentially the fields, the farms and the landscapes 424 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:29,360 where your crops are grown, basically they're an extension 425 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,720 of your factory production line, aren't they? 426 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,760 So, so if those fields, farms and landscapes are kind of 427 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,080 altering or, or struggling because of poor soils or water 428 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,360 logging or drought or costs of inputs, then that's essentially 429 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:45,680 that's your production line that's struggling and, and it's 430 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,560 just very practical like that. And so from their perspective, I 431 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,400 think ultimately the metrics would be those really for them. 432 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,360 Can they get reliable feedstock in and it's kind of analogous to 433 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,680 to water companies. So I sort of think that the 434 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,360 reason they're participating is, well, it's kind of the reason. 435 00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:05,600 If you look out at the kind of fields and landscapes and 436 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,280 reservoirs at the moment, you know, having had one of the dry 437 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,720 springs on record following last year when we had one of the 438 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,520 wettest springs on record, you know, they can and should be and 439 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,520 could and should be looking at those things. 440 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,600 But also they're all interested in reportable stuff as well, 441 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,080 particularly carbon. And I think it's really 442 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,480 important when we put our transactions together that we're 443 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,920 aware of, of delivering against those. 444 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,160 So absolutely reportable carbon, absolutely reportable 445 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,800 biodiversity outcomes. But from our perspective, you 446 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,440 know, it's the, it's the kind of vital signs of resilience 447 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,040 really, you know, you know, how reliable are livelihoods, if the 448 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,840 farmers livelihoods are insecure, then then again, your 449 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,240 supply chain, just practical purposes, your supply chain is 450 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,200 not secure. One of the things we've 451 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,040 discussed in the past, actually, Helen, is, is the more we can 452 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,160 put risk numbers and then financial numbers on that 453 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,440 resilience so that businesses can understand what costs 454 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,400 they're exposed to if they don't take action on that, the more 455 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,840 they can calibrate and engage on that fundamental resilience 456 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,480 perspective. It's not to say that carbon 457 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,160 outcomes and biodiversity outcomes per SE are not 458 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,600 important, but you know, as we move into a volatile world, more 459 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,560 and more volatile world, I think that, you know, raw material 460 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,640 risk is going to be a significant deep business 461 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,880 motivator. I kind of feel if we're going to 462 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,760 do this in a way which stands the test of time, we have to be 463 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,040 putting numbers on and factoring in business resilience as a core 464 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,840 driver here and not just people reporting things that they sort 465 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,600 of feel right now that they need to report. 466 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,760 Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. I think it's, you know, the big 467 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,800 thing we lack is demand drivers. And what lens shows is actually 468 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,240 they, they exist. I mean, you were transacting 469 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,360 before TNFD, but this is really what TNFD is built for, isn't 470 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,200 it, To help companies figure out what are your dependencies and 471 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,440 what's actually the risk you have at the moment with climate, 472 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,400 nature degradation compounding one another. 473 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,320 But if you say that gap we have at the moment is maybe of 474 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,480 costing out those risks for businesses so that we can push 475 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,160 them to make these transactions and Lens is the vehicle through 476 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,040 which that can be done. Yeah. 477 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,920 We've, we've got to, we've got to help business more generally 478 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,440 to understand those risks. But what we've shown is that 479 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,440 when when you're recognising that and you're wanting to 480 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,440 obtain solutions in the landscape and you recognise that 481 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,440 it makes sense to do that with others collaborating on the 482 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,320 demand side, being linked to farmers who are collaborating on 483 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,080 the supply side, that that won't just magically happen. 484 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,400 You need scaffolding to do that. You need efficient practical 485 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,800 mechanism and scaffolding through which that happens. 486 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,200 And that's and that's contracts and systems. 487 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,080 Tom, one thing I think it'd be really great for us to talk 488 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,080 about is how you assess and measure the impacts of those 489 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,320 environmental outcomes. Yeah, monitoring, reporting, 490 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,240 verification, it's utterly critical. 491 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,040 We've got a fairly sophisticated well developed MRV setup and 492 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,480 protocol we operate initially it's just two primary functions, 493 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,680 but then a third really important function that comes 494 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,720 out of that. The first one is monetary 495 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,200 reporting verification. It, it, it's verifying that the 496 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,160 stuff that you contracted to happen on the ground has 497 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,120 actually happened, you know, and we need to show that. 498 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,160 And so, so the second really important thing it's doing, of 499 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,640 course, is reporting back to the customers, to the man's side 500 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,320 that yes, it's happened. But also actually you're, you're 501 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,360 getting your functional outcomes, you're actually 502 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:19,960 starting, you're getting the carbon results and ultimately 503 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,240 you're getting, you know, the livelihoods, soil health, water 504 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,520 resilience, those resilience outcomes as well. 505 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,240 So, so it's actually functionally as it happening. 506 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,960 The third thing that I think a kind of MRV system really, 507 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,320 really can do with lens and it's starting to do with lens, it's, 508 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,360 it's an adaptive learning feedback loop. 509 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,760 We've got massive amounts of data we're creating on what 510 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,640 agronomy does in terms of outcomes. 511 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,120 And that enables us then to start to learn from that and 512 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,640 aggregate that and understand it and feed that back to what it is 513 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,480 that farmers might do and what what it is that we ought to be 514 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,400 transacting. What should be prioritising and 515 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,160 what and, and what doesn't work quite so well from our 516 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,280 perspective, those three things are what's integrated into MRV. 517 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,600 The way we do MRV is it's largely outsourced in terms of 518 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,840 the collection of data. So we're with amazing partners 519 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,000 on on MRV, including farmers who do things like Geo tagged photos 520 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,880 to show that stuff happened on the ground. 521 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,200 But increasingly in conjunction with that we can work with 522 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,840 remote sensing, that kind of stuff. 523 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,040 So we outsource that practical data collection, but the 524 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,440 collation of it, the quality assurance of it and the analysis 525 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,560 and allocation of it is done centrally essentially. 526 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,520 Because obviously it has to be compliant with protocols and it 527 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,000 has to be properly accounted for and not double counted. 528 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,840 It has to adhere to rules. And and that's, that's expertise 529 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,320 that we we manage and need to manage centrally. 530 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,640 And it's of course lens comes from the three keel stable, 531 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,440 which is right at the forefront to all that stuff. 532 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,160 So we're kind of quite good at it, really. 533 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,400 So I feel a little strange to end on a risk note, but Tommy, 534 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,400 you've clearly spent a lot of time thinking about this topic 535 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,160 of collective action. So are there any risks that you 536 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,440 see with these models as they emerge? 537 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,760 Well, I mean, the challenges are the ones, you know, I talked 538 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,840 about at the beginning of the call in the Society of 539 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,840 businesses and farmers have these existential needs from, 540 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,960 from the land and, and we're never going to get away from 541 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,200 that. And that those needs are at risk 542 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,600 because of because of biophysical factors, climate 543 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,960 change, but also because of geopolitical and trade factors 544 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,160 as well. And and so that's those are the 545 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,840 big challenges and they ain't going away. 546 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,720 Essentially the way in which I see the nature markets evolving 547 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,800 and around that space and and needing to evolve are obviously 548 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,160 more of lens more, more of that sort of stuff. 549 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,480 But but critically, I think it's going to become increasingly 550 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,120 clear and we're going to increasingly learn that 551 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,160 financing landscapes actually has to be underpin, be 552 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,320 underpinned by commerce. I think that's really critical 553 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,520 and I think that's it. That's one part of how I see 554 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,400 this evolving and needing to evolve. 555 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,640 You need buyers to remove the nature product, if you like, 556 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,040 provides tangible value to their business, but then you can build 557 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,560 on that with finance to scale it. 558 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,960 So I think getting it back to fundamentals and delivering 559 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,520 business value is part of the evolution that needs to happen. 560 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,000 Actually. We just need to reroute this and 561 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,280 understand that actually fundamentally it's not just 562 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,280 about this is important for GDP or this is important for 563 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,040 society. It has to be important and 564 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,960 individualizable for each of the businesses that engage in this. 565 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:19,640 We need to get much better at that. 566 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,200 So I think that that tangible value given the kind of volatile 567 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,520 world we're facing into, that tangible value is going to 568 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,120 relate to material risk more and more, supply chain risk, flood 569 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:35,200 risk, risk to infrastructure. And I think I think the way this 570 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,680 is going to evolve is that that's going to be become the 571 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,800 prime mover essentially. I think that offset markets will 572 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,680 continue to be important. I think they really are 573 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,360 important, but I think those material risk markets and and 574 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,520 drivers, we really need to tap into them because they they cut 575 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,040 down to business fundamentals and they'll drive real scale of 576 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,440 action. And also they don't they're not 577 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,720 so at risk of of the kind of fragility we'd see within with 578 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,360 offsets, which which rely on legislation or market 579 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,080 expectations to do the right thing essentially. 580 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,480 So I guess my, my sort of cup half full feeling on this is I 581 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,600 think nature will be called business for multiple sectors in 582 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,320 the future because I think nature, we can use nature as a 583 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,640 sort of tool for securing business resilience. 584 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,800 And I think if we can do that in ways that are unlocked by 585 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,600 mechanisms like lens that allow pragmatic collective action. 586 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,600 And I think, I think that, I think that's how I see it 587 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,120 evolving and I think it actually can do proper transformative 588 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,680 change. I, I guess one of the concerns I 589 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,760 have sometimes is that you could, you could imagine this 590 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,880 marketplace kind of getting short circuited into a situation 591 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,440 where it became an exercise in data collection and reporting 592 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,120 and, and didn't associate that with the flow of funds and 593 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,200 support that goes into pharma networks. 594 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,680 And I think, I think there are significant risks there in that 595 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,360 what might result is that you you kind of get the illusion of 596 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,480 progress, but actually you get don't get the opportunity for 597 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,520 genuine transformation, for genuine action to happen on the 598 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,360 ground. We need collaborative supply 599 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,800 chain to make this work. This is these risks, this 600 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,360 resilience. There are common interest issues 601 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,840 that occur right from the primary production on the farms, 602 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,760 right through the factories, right through into retail, right 603 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,360 through them to into people's plates. 604 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,600 It's everyone's risks. We're all involved. 605 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,080 Those farmer fields are all part of our system essentially. 606 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,680 And so the solutions need to be invested in from across the 607 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,160 supply chain. Well, thank you so much, Tom, 608 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,400 for your time today. I think it's been a really great 609 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,040 way to wrap up our episodes, specifically on this sort of 610 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,560 collective action models of multiple corporates coming 611 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,800 together within this particular season. 612 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,200 And you've given us a lot of food for thought today. 613 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,960 So thank you so much for your time. 614 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,560 Thank you very much. And as ever, it's wonderful to 615 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,560 work in partnership with JFI and, yeah, work together to to 616 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,840 build resilient landscapes for a resilient society. 617 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,240 Well, that's it for this week. If you want to find out more 618 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,760 about LENS, you can go visit their website 619 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:10,320 thatslandscapeenterprisenetworks.com. LENS are of course alongside 620 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,760 Rimba Collective and the Fisheries Improvement Fund, 621 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,360 among the models that the revenues for Nature initiative 622 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,520 with ourselves and UNFFI and UNDP Biofin are supporting to 623 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,320 replicate and scale. And you can find out more about 624 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,480 LENS by checking out that work. Next week, Emily McKenzie is 625 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,760 going to be joining me from the TNFD, the task force on nature 626 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,760 related financial disclosures. And we'll be catching up on 627 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,200 where the TNFD is right now, what's happening, as well as 628 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,920 looking at how we move from disclosures into investment and 629 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,760 touching on transition plans. And then as we glide into the 630 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:51,120 end of this season, we have FSD Africa, TNC, Tim Male from Epic, 631 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,840 and the wonderful Justin Adams from Astara. 632 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,320 So I hope you have a great week. Until next time.