1 00:00:16,860 --> 00:00:19,660 Hi, I'm Helen Avery with the Green Finance Institute. 2 00:00:19,860 --> 00:00:23,200 And you're listening to Financing Nature for our final 3 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,200 episode of this series. I'm delighted to be joined by 4 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,240 Justin Adams, Co founder of the Historic Collective and fellow 5 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,920 with the Circular Bio Economy Alliance, to pose a few big 6 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,320 questions about what next for nature finance. 7 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,760 We spend all of this time saying how do we invest more, How do we 8 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:41,840 scale more? How do we right. 9 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,120 And we find more instruments, more opportunities, more policy 10 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,080 mechanisms to to do that. And it's so important, so 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,080 valuable to do that. But what we are ignoring is the 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,000 iceberg of this. This is what we see on the 13 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,600 surface, because underneath it is 7.3 trillion, which I think 14 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,560 is probably an underestimate of nature negative activities. 15 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:09,520 So for all of our work, we continue to ignore the fact that 16 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,200 we can work ever harder, we can become busier and busier and 17 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:18,800 busier, and yet the mainstream economy continues to extract and 18 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,040 exploit and degrade our environment. 19 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:35,320 Hello and welcome back to the very last episode of this season 20 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:38,120 of Financing Nature, The Revenues for Nature season. 21 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,880 And it is my very last episode of Financing Nature, but I'll 22 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:43,360 share more about that at the end. 23 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,040 I'm so excited, however, to wrap up this season with Justin 24 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,520 Adams. Justin has been a huge 25 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,080 inspiration for me personally at encouraging us to question is 26 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,240 what we're doing in nature finance enough? 27 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,480 We're all working so hard. There are just incredible and 28 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,360 essential initiatives happening, many of which we've heard about 29 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,320 through this season and the other seasons. 30 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,759 And and it's clear that progress is being made, but we also know 31 00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:12,440 that we're continuing to lose biodiversity. 32 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,680 Populations are growing with ever greater needs to be met. 33 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,880 So in these final 2 episodes, as I said last week, we're sort of 34 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,840 departing from the very practical examples of nature 35 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,240 finance to kind of step back and take a bit of a different view. 36 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,800 So Harvey last week posed some bold ideas, many of which still 37 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,360 fit within the system that we're in. 38 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,400 But today, Justin is joining us to sort of talk about actually, 39 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,080 do we need to question more the system we're in? 40 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,160 And are there some changes we need to make sort of 41 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,520 fundamentally? And if so, where can change 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,600 happen? It's a journey he himself has 43 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,480 been working through for multiple decades. 44 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:52,400 Actually, he's been in the field. 45 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,640 And then he took a break to explore what would make an even 46 00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:57,640 bigger difference. And he's kindly going to join us 47 00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:00,720 today to share what he's been learning and what he's working 48 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:10,640 on. Welcome, Justin, It's so lovely 49 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:12,720 to see you. How are you first of all? 50 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,640 I'm great sun shining and yeah, it's lovely to see you, Helen. 51 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,440 It's lovely to see you so before, well actually before we 52 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,880 sort of talk about the meat of, you know, how we're going to 53 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,640 tackle nature finance and all the amazing things you're 54 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,760 working on. That'd be really great for 55 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,680 everyone to hear your own personal story because I know 56 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,640 that it's personally really inspired me the journey that 57 00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:38,720 you've taken through working in nature finance and then to where 58 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:40,960 you are now working on several different projects. 59 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,360 So I wondered if you would do us the honour of sort of sharing a 60 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,080 bit more about that. Let me do that succinctly. 61 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,400 And, and I mean, there's, there's, I think there's two 62 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,840 threads to it. One is the sort of thread that 63 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,480 you can read on my LinkedIn profile of my professional 64 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,360 journey and I did my first nature finance deal 20 years ago 65 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,640 now a carbon deal I inherited. At that point I was working in 66 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,880 BP of all places, but but working on the carbon cycle and 67 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,960 really trying to understand the role nature might play. 68 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,880 And I inherited the Noel Kemp project, which was at that point 69 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,040 the sort of the prototype red project in Bolivia that that 70 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,839 taught us so much around avoided deforestation. 71 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,080 And the more I did with that, the more I sort of realised that 72 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,080 this was the sort of deeper calling for me that. 73 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,280 And I then chose to sort of focus my career from 2010 74 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:32,880 onwards really into the sort of nature and land use space and 75 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,800 had various, you know, stints and roles helping set up a fund 76 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,600 with the World Bank, moving to a wonderful role at The Nature 77 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,480 Conservancy for five years, than the World Economic Forum where I 78 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,440 set up the nature platform. And then finally into Generation 79 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,600 Investment Management, one of the most extraordinary, you 80 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,080 know, investment firms that's really been pushing the boundary 81 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,200 of sustainable finance for 20 odd years. 82 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,840 And there helped sort of build the strategy for what is now 83 00:04:58,840 --> 00:05:02,960 their nature and food fund. But throughout that journey, I 84 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,840 was sort of looking where and how do we make a difference with 85 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:08,560 nature finance? Where and how can we really 86 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,360 start to address the, the, the, the desperate situation that 87 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,080 we're in? And I think everybody listening 88 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:19,720 to this podcast understands that the state of nature and the WWF 89 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,880 Living Planet report that shows the sort of 73% sort of 90 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,400 reduction in species abundance in in our lifetimes, in 50 91 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,480 years. And that that, you know, as much 92 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,240 as the climate crisis sort of really imperils the future of, 93 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:36,960 of life on Earth. And, and so how and where do we 94 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,440 find levers to do that? But the second thread of that 95 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,600 journey has been one that has always been inspired by nature. 96 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,320 I was, you know, very lucky in my early 20s to study with some 97 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:52,320 indigenous elders and they taught me and encouraged me to 98 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,880 be listening to nature herself to, to find ways of finding my 99 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,600 path and what my contribution might be. 100 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,640 And so that deeper in a journey has been a, a thread that's not 101 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:08,080 in my LinkedIn profile, but has been just as important as that 102 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,040 professional journey. And I'm sure we'll touch on bits 103 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,920 of that as we move along. Yeah, I know. 104 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,800 I'd absolutely love to. So after sort of incredible work 105 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,760 on the ground looking at nature finance, you then decided to 106 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,760 kind of take a year out if it if, if that's correct and you've 107 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,000 come back sort of refreshed with some different views of some 108 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,960 different approaches that we should and could be taking. 109 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,360 So I'd love if you can sort of share with us about that and 110 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,840 then sort of leading onto to what you're working on now. 111 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,120 I mean, I think it's fair to say I, I sort of very much been an 112 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,080 insider. I sort of worked inside the 113 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,200 system, those various roles I touched on a moment ago that 114 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:51,000 that believing that we needed to work in the system, we needed to 115 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,880 influence the, the sort of people with power to, to affect 116 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,120 the system and that the system could change. 117 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,440 And I believe that's what a lot of the sustainability world, the 118 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,600 sustainability communities worked on for so, so many years. 119 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,560 And yeah, and we've made wonderful progress, the level of 120 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,160 awareness that's there now. And if you just look at the 121 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,400 nature finance agenda, I mean, what's happening with 122 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,680 disclosure? I mean, just listening back to 123 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,360 Emily Mckenzie's wonderful podcast interview with you a few 124 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,120 months ago with TNF DS were listening to so many of the kind 125 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,960 of other, you know, wonderful examples you've pulled in from 126 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:31,600 Terasos and Lens and Rimba Collective on the revenues for 127 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,880 nature project. It's it's wonderful seeing how 128 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,160 much progress is there. And and that's yeah, I can give 129 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,480 you various examples of things I've done and, and, and say, 130 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,960 yes, that was great. And we we've made this progress. 131 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,800 But but the dawning realisation, and again, this is actually also 132 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,720 the dawning realisation from spending deeper time in, in 133 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,760 nature as well, was like for all of that progress, we are falling 134 00:07:54,760 --> 00:08:00,600 so far short of, of what is needed because we keep trying to 135 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,440 finance regeneration, but within a system that is fundamentally 136 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,760 built on extraction. And unless we start to get to 137 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,600 the deeper design traits of the system, then I worry we will 138 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,280 continue to fall short. And so here I was, you know, 139 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,280 just after my 50th birthday, and I reached a moment where I 140 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,040 realised the most dangerous idea we have in sustainability is 141 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,320 that we don't have time to change the system or redesign 142 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,320 the system. Because I think unless we start 143 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,480 getting serious about that, we are just stacking up more and 144 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,120 more problems for future generations to deal with. 145 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,000 So how can I, with all the privilege, the networks, the 146 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,600 experience I've got, actually start to try and say what might 147 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,440 we do differently? Not to say anything, All the 148 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,000 progress is bad. It's great, it's wonderful, it's 149 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,960 wonderful seeing how many people are engaged. 150 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,240 But we've got to start pushing for deeper change, deeper 151 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,520 transformation. Oh gosh, makes my heart explode. 152 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,240 I'm just, it's just so refreshing and I'm so grateful 153 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,960 for you for having that sort of experience and sort of 154 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,600 awakening, if you will, that's LED you to where you are now. 155 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,520 Because I think it's when I look out, I see there's quite a few 156 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,320 people who are now similarly sort of following in your 157 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:21,200 footsteps and thinking, we are so productive across nature 158 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,120 finance now, so many people being very busy doing wonderful, 159 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,480 wonderful things. But as you say, like is it 160 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,680 really changing the system? I think quite a few of us are 161 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:32,400 questioning. And that's really what we wanted 162 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,080 to sort of end this series with was we're sort of hearing some 163 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:41,320 of the sort of more provocative big ideas that can go a level 164 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,240 deeper than than where we are at the moment that can really have 165 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,520 that long term system change. So I guess this brings us on to 166 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,640 like, it'd be great to hear what you're working on now. 167 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,240 I know you've got several hats and angles that you're working 168 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,080 here. That's the right way of saying 169 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:58,840 it. So yeah, tell us all about that. 170 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,720 Well, I think the thing to say is that there's there's lots of 171 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,200 career paths, lots of opportunities, lots of jobs now 172 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,760 in nature finance that are that are, you know, quite clearly 173 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,960 marked out when you say actually, I want to really 174 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,120 fundamentally challenge the premise of the system, right? 175 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,240 It's actually far harder to find jobs that that do that. 176 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,400 And it's one of the things lots of people says, Oh, we'll have, 177 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:21,560 you know, what, what opportunities are there and how 178 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:24,080 can we do this? And it's and it's hard, right? 179 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,200 We're sort of breaking new ground, but I'm very fortunate 180 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,560 in having a couple of different sort of hats I am wearing. 181 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:34,480 So I worked with Circular Bio Economy Alliance where I'm sort 182 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,720 of, I became their reimagining Nature Finance fellow, which is 183 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,600 sort of really trying to sort of push the boundaries of nature 184 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,120 finance and how we might think. And then the other, the 185 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,480 organisation I set up, which was to actually try and create 186 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,520 spaces, opportunities for more people within the system to sort 187 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,000 of step back and have immersive experiences in nature to think 188 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,800 differently about the future. That's an organisation called a 189 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,960 *. So reimagining nature finance, 190 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,520 should we start off with what you observed over your career 191 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,880 and then what sort of came to you on your time out and it has 192 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,960 come to you since that that you see as like not working 193 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:15,880 specifically? And then we can sort of talk 194 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,040 about what what, what is working, what could work. 195 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,960 I, I think we know what's, what's not working and I think 196 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,560 we're all scrambling, we're all super busy, as you, as you said 197 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:29,680 a moment ago in, in, in trying to, to find solutions. 198 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:35,720 And, and, and I think one of the things I observed and I helped 199 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,240 co-author the 1st edition of UNEPFI state of Finance for 200 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,080 nature report. I think that was in 2021, the 201 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,680 first version of that came out. And of course the latest edition 202 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:49,000 of that came out a few months ago and the numbers aren't 203 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,760 drastic particularly different. But what the latest report shows 204 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:58,520 is that we've got $220 billion of funding a year going into 205 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,360 so-called nature positive investment, which sounds a great 206 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,880 deal of money. But of course, in terms of the 207 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,880 global economy, it's, it's a rounding error and we talk about 208 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,640 the need to scale that nature finance, We're all scrambling. 209 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,600 We're trying to find more voluntary investment from 210 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:19,840 corporates. We're trying to get more 211 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,600 regulated instruments for biodiversity markets or for for 212 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,240 carbon or for other forms of environmental payments. 213 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,560 And, and So what the unit latest report says is by 20-30, we need 214 00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:36,880 to scale it to 571 billion. So roughly 2 1/2 times scale up. 215 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,560 So I think we spend so much of our time in terms of the 216 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:43,240 investment side. We spend all of this time saying 217 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,800 how do we invest more, how do we scale more, how do we right and 218 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,960 we find more instruments, more opportunities, more policy 219 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,880 mechanisms to to do that. And it's so important, so 220 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,880 valuable to do that. But what we are ignoring is the 221 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,840 iceberg of this. This is what we see on the 222 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,440 surface, because underneath it is 7.3 trillion, which I think 223 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,240 is probably an underestimate, but we see 7.3 trillion of 224 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,240 nature negative activities. So for all of our work within 225 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,640 the nature finance community, which is mostly the bubble we 226 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,040 exist in and what we're talking to ourselves about, we continue 227 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,920 to ignore the fact that that we can work ever harder. 228 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,320 We can become busier and busier and busier and yet the 229 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:34,200 mainstream economy continues to extract and exploit and degrade 230 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,880 our environment and many people associated with with that. 231 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,600 And, and that's the fundamental challenge. 232 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,080 And so, so I say it's not simply a capital shortage. 233 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,080 It's, it's, it's a systemic flaw. 234 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:52,720 And for all of our efforts to try and upscale and find, get 235 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,920 environment ministries to, to create new mechanisms, those 236 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,080 mechanisms, if you and, and you work very closely with the UK 237 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,200 government and other governments around their own green finance. 238 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,080 And again, there's many, many extraordinary, wonderful people 239 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,440 doing this work. But almost all of our thinking 240 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,080 is all driven through market logic. 241 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,640 And that the market logic is the logic of neoliberalism, that if 242 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,960 we could just find ways of pricing this, if we just find 243 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,320 ways of creating a market, private sector money is going to 244 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,080 flood in and that's going to solve our problem. 245 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:32,320 And yet that's exactly the root of the the challenges that have 246 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,800 driven the degradation. And I I had an indigenous elder, 247 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:40,120 an extraordinary man now well into his 90s, Orrin Lyons, who's 248 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,240 of the Onondaga Nation from upper state New York, part of 249 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:50,200 the year, heard Nashoni Nation and he SAT around this council 250 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,080 fire. We had the Nature Conservancy's 251 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,800 leadership sitting in council for three days with the Hoda 252 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,880 Noshoni elders. And he looked at me and said, 253 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,760 you keep talking about these finance mechanisms, you keep 254 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,640 talking about new technology. And yet that is the very same 255 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,560 instinct that has driven so much of this destruction that we have 256 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,800 seen over the last 500 years. And so we're we're using the 257 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,560 same logic to try and solve the problems of the system. 258 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,760 And that is what concerns me very greatly if we're 259 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,960 fundamentally looking to try and shift. 260 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,080 There's a couple of things lately I've heard in the UK that 261 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,880 have really made me sort of think about this issue of we're 262 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,200 just spent with the trillions going into destroying nature. 263 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,000 Not that's not his aim. It's just the system, as you 264 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,040 say. And one was there was Anthropy 265 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,880 and a woman from GCHQ. The intelligence unit was sort 266 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,840 of just reminding us how much is being spent on war and the 267 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,440 damage that that does to the environment just wipes out like 268 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,960 decades of any sort of regenerative investment you may 269 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,800 have made in land in some of the the region which is war-torn. 270 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,560 The other words, there was a discussion around the just 271 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,640 because we're in a world now which has slightly shifted in 272 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,960 the last almost more decades, probably more than that to 273 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,320 having more conflicts. If we put it like that in the 274 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,920 with the West involved, I would say that economic growth must 275 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,640 keep churning to pay for defence budgets. 276 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,400 And then when I heard that, I thought, how are we ever going 277 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,280 to get out of this? You know, more and more 278 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:47,080 extraction is to pay for military, which will cause more 279 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,800 devastation and then we'll need more extraction. 280 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,560 And you sort of realise it's never ending. 281 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,760 And then the other thing I'd mentioned, it was, and I think 282 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,640 you said that you've seen this as well, was that that 283 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,280 dramatisation of the water sector issues in the UK, dirty 284 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,440 business where you could see very clearly that for all the 285 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,280 amazing grants that are put into cleaning up our rivers means 286 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,079 nothing if the water companies are illegally pumping out sewage 287 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:15,760 into our waterways. You just, we just can't fight 288 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,640 it. So I think there's quite a few 289 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,119 people at the moment who are really sort of questioning this 290 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,800 is that point you said around how can we ever fight against 291 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,319 all the the negative impacts that are almost like a byproduct 292 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,720 of the system that we live in. So I'm keen to hear how are you 293 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,520 approaching changing that? Because a lot of people you talk 294 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,120 about system change and I don't know about you, but in the past 295 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:40,400 I've, I rolled a little bit because I thought, look, we're 296 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,400 in a capitalist system. You kind of got to live with it. 297 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,520 And it's only now I'm starting to think actually inspired by 298 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,480 people like yourself, like it's time to challenge it. 299 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,000 But it also doesn't feel very practical, you know, when you 300 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,520 talk about system change. So I'd love to hear what what 301 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,560 are you thinking about the actual changes to be made? 302 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,240 I mean, we're, we're talking, you know, at a time of, you 303 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,200 know, heightened geopolitical conflict, we're talking at a 304 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:09,960 time of kind of increasing ecological unravelling and, you 305 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,800 know, a water crisis that that in certain regions is just 306 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,120 starting to kind of escalate and escalate. 307 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:19,640 We're talking at this time as sort of, you know, deep 308 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,440 inequality, deep unhappiness with our political system and 309 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,760 yet so many people in power. Your example of the the lady 310 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:31,440 from GCHQ and we see it in the 24 hour news cycle. 311 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,400 We're all bombarded with it's like we're just stuck within 312 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,400 this system that we don't have any alternative. 313 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,320 Let you know we've got to increase defence budget. 314 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,520 We can't regulate the water companies more because then, you 315 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,600 know, they won't be able to just keep the function of water 316 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,080 delivery to our homes and and our businesses. 317 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,760 So we're sort of stuck within this logic, even though, you 318 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,400 know, more and more people are realising goodness, right? 319 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,160 Things are not working well for many people. 320 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,200 They're working fine for a few people, but but for the majority 321 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,640 of people and certainly for the majority of species, this system 322 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,600 is not working well. So I would say when I stepped 323 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,720 back and again, what a privilege to have that opportunity to take 324 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,000 a year to step back and just reflect on what the heck am I 325 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,600 doing and where the heck are we? I realised that we have this 326 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,160 crisis of separation. We've separated ourselves from 327 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,080 each other and from the natural world. 328 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:31,040 Now we've got this crisis of individualism and crisis of 329 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,320 meaning because we've separated ourselves so much. 330 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,680 And I, I, you know, I have young adult children who are kind of, 331 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,160 you know, talk about this sort of isolation that, that so many 332 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,160 young people are feeling as well, this dislocation of where 333 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,520 are they in this at this moment. So I think this crisis 334 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,120 separation and then this other thing is this crisis of 335 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:55,240 imagination that that we, we struggle to see beyond the 336 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:56,920 boundary of the system that we're in. 337 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,240 And the number of times that I end up in circular discussions 338 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,240 of like, you're kidding yourself if you think we're going to 339 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,920 change the system, you're kidding yourself if right, this 340 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,120 is what it is. And so let's just just put your 341 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:11,560 head down, get on with it. And, and, and I can't tell you 342 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,760 how many times I've heard that. And then what's the answer? 343 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,280 Well, the challenge with the new system is it's hard to see, it's 344 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,720 hard to analyse. I got in trouble the other week 345 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,120 because I quipped that, you know, it's not going to be a 346 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:27,320 McKinsey report that helps us. Just analyse our way into this, 347 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:30,520 which is a sort of, which is not so much a, a comment on 348 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,520 McKinsey, but a, a comment on the logic of our current system. 349 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,400 We can't imagine that. So I look for inspiration from 350 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,360 kind of other world views, other ways of thinking about seeing 351 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:44,040 the world. And you've got these deep kind 352 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:45,920 of spiritual traditions around the world. 353 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,160 But we've, we've also got, particularly in the nature 354 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,440 world, you know, indigenous traditions who have maintained 355 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,360 deep relationship and a deep understanding that we are not 356 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,520 separate, that we are completely interrelated. 357 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,920 We are one part of this living extraordinary tapestry of life, 358 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,840 this one living world. And, and so I have taken great 359 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,200 inspiration from indigenous principles, indigenous ways of 360 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,160 understanding and relating to the world and what that might 361 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,240 mean in terms of alternative. So that's an area that we could 362 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,920 sort of tap into a little bit in terms of sort of where some of 363 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,200 those opportunities might be of a of an alternate system. 364 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,120 I have taken inspiration from some of the emerging experiments 365 00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:36,560 on the fringes of, of technology and what technology is enabling 366 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,200 in terms of decentralised distributed finance mechanisms 367 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,600 that are happening in a very, very small way that in some ways 368 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,760 might build on the microfinance experiments of, of recent 369 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,520 decades and, and enable things to happen at a much more local 370 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,240 level. I've taken great inspiration 371 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,040 from some of the, the, the teachings of Buddhism and the 372 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,160 teachings of into being and, and, and sort of how that may 373 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,640 relate to different ways of, of working. 374 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,560 I take great inspiration from the rights of nature movement 375 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:15,160 and how in giving rights to nature. 376 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:20,240 And yeah, I spent time in New Zealand with the, the, the 377 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,360 Fanganui River and the, the sort of the idea that a river might 378 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:26,160 have rights. And what does that mean in the 379 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:32,040 context of a culture like the UK where we privatised top water? 380 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,960 But now we're seeing some of our own river ways, the River Wye 381 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,960 and others that are starting and have a river guardians and 382 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,360 people who are speaking for the river and the species of the 383 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:43,600 river. What does that start to kind of 384 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,600 open up in terms of new possibilities? 385 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,080 So I just use those as little examples of sort of seeds of 386 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,080 what a future might be, as difficult as it is to, to, to 387 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:59,240 conceive, because the last thing I would say is, is that I think 388 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:04,200 we suffer from this, what I call the tyranny of scale, right? 389 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,600 That in our existing system, finance only matters if we're 390 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,000 going to start talking about, you know, 100 billion or, you 391 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,640 know, one of the, the things I realised when I was at 392 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,600 generations as we were building this nature and food fund. 393 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,000 And it's it's again, it's going to do some fabulous things. 394 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,440 This is not a critique of the fund. 395 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,440 I'm so excited for that team and what they're starting to do. 396 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,560 But, but understanding the smallest cheque size we would 397 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,160 want to write as an investor might be 2530 and ideally $50 398 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,080 million, right. And you think what actually are 399 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,360 the needs of nature, what are the needs of community? 400 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:42,600 Because inherently so much of this work is local, but we're 401 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,960 operating in a, in a homogenised global financial system that 402 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,440 just wants scale. And so unless it's at that 403 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:55,040 scale, we ignore it. So, so I think the tyranny of 404 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,720 scale is something we need to break if we are going to 405 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,840 actually start to align to what nature's principles might be and 406 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,160 what nature finance may be nudging us towards. 407 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,920 So gosh, there's a lot in there and I have multiple questions. 408 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,280 This tyranny scale. I love that. 409 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:19,240 I hope you TM that. But I was thinking about the 410 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,200 Seychelles. I can't remember if it was the 411 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,200 debt for nature swap early on or a blue bond, but I remember it 412 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,600 was a journalist at the time and I commissioned my colleague to 413 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,280 go there and write the story. Obviously we were hoping to say 414 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,000 what normal success it was and one of the biggest things she 415 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,680 came back and said was that the money was actually too much. 416 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,360 It was a country of about about 94,000, I think. 417 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,320 And the money from the blue bond to support action was $15 418 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,320 million, which was too much that could be put to use really. 419 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,520 So some projects needed more like 35,000, I seem to remember 420 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,680 some, perhaps even less. Not to mention that it was also 421 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,560 a country that had, you know, some challenges. 422 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,120 There was some corruption, but also 10% of the working 423 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,160 population had a heroin addiction problem at that time. 424 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,840 And that kind of money, actually, you can cause more 425 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,080 problems. So the solution for the 426 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,280 Seychelles wasn't necessarily, you know, like large amounts of 427 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,760 money for conservation. Actually some of the fishermen 428 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,600 needed a much smaller amounts that they could could put to 429 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,680 work. I mean, it was a long time ago 430 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,520 that we wrote the article. So I don't know what happened 431 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,280 since. And hopefully it has been a huge 432 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,800 success and all those challenges were ironed out, but it really 433 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,320 stayed with me. To your point on scale mismatch, 434 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,280 but I had a couple of questions. 1 was, so do you think this 435 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,160 calls for different financial institutions? 436 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,360 Is that something you're exploring? 437 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,400 I'm not exploring new financial institutions at this point. 438 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,680 I think inevitably it does. But yeah, we've also got to work 439 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,440 with the institutions where it's like this whole question of 440 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,720 transition and transformation and how and how do we get there. 441 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,360 I think it does require for new financial instruments and 442 00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:00,600 instruments that are enabling, you know, exactly as you just 443 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,040 described, right. So many of these communities 444 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,880 places, right, require far smaller amounts of capital than 445 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,720 our existing system is going to work, right. 446 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,240 It's, it's so how can we actually get decentralised 447 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:20,320 finance working because of the risk return kind of dynamics of 448 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,560 what drives large scale financial investments that 449 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,440 anything that a small scale immediately just sort of flags 450 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,480 up as too risk as too risky. I mean, if you, you can speak to 451 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,800 folk in sub-Saharan Africa and, and some of the analysis has 452 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,400 been done there, it's like almost any African country 453 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,840 counts as too risky, right. So this is with our existing 454 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,240 logic. We can't finance so much of 455 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,000 this. And there's a whole emerging 456 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,920 movement around regenerative finance, which is still small 457 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:52,160 scale, but it has the potential for how we can then distribute 458 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,120 finance at a much more localised, decentralised 459 00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:57,920 distributed scale. And I'm really interested in 460 00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,320 that. I'm really interested in some of 461 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,520 the mechanisms of that. And I think fundamentally what 462 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,520 I'm trying to start to sort of set up and look at some of the 463 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:10,400 case studies and prototypes for is how might we bridge, you 464 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,680 know, the, the relative sophistication from a Western 465 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,760 perspective of financing into what some of those more 466 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,720 decentralised, localised regenerative models might be. 467 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:27,120 I've just returned from the Andes fabulous project there 468 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:30,720 called Action Andina that won the Earthshop Prize in 2023. 469 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,840 Amazing leadership between an organisation called Global 470 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,520 Forest Generation and Echo and that is linking the, the 471 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,400 conservation restoration of the high water towers of the, of the 472 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,880 Andes to kind of how do we get nature finance to work? 473 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,680 And we're starting to think what new mechanisms might be needed 474 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,400 because the, the magic of what they're doing is they're working 475 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,120 with now 180 communities across I think 5-6 countries of the 476 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:59,680 Andes and getting money to them. It's still based on grant 477 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,080 mechanisms. It's still clunky, kind of how 478 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,240 do you get the money to work? How do you get to flow, but how 479 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,520 do you give real decision rights and real governance to some of 480 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,120 those communities themselves? If you can start to use some of 481 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,640 these new technologies that enable that and then you can 482 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,400 start to link that to actually how many companies, industries 483 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,680 are dependent on water from those mountains. 484 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,760 So that you can start to recognise this is a collective 485 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,960 risk issues that countries, companies, industries have got. 486 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,440 That starts to say there's new ways that we're going to need to 487 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,400 unlock this and start to think of, you know, this is a current 488 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,400 or old economy term, but but nature as infrastructure for the 489 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,680 absolute fundamental security of those communities and those 490 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,440 those countries, because water is life, right? 491 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,760 There's ways that we can start to think about finance to work 492 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,600 in a different way. So that's the type of 493 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,280 opportunity I'm really excited to be developing so that we can 494 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,000 actually build regenerative principles into that and start 495 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,400 to come into a very different type of financing future than 496 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,360 the the the one we currently got available. 497 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,200 That it's either pure philanthropy or we're going to 498 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,440 have to create some large company that that you know, is 499 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,200 going to manage all of this and have. 500 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,320 Double digits. Double digit, yeah, double digit 501 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,560 returns. And and then we've got to have 502 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,960 kind of, you know, MBAs from Harvard and, you know, Stanford 503 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,160 that are going to come in and need to run it and need to 504 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,480 write. It's like we've got to get 505 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,880 smarter around how this is going to work versus just sort of 506 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,200 replicating the bits of the system that we know are 507 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,320 perpetuating business as usual. So again, so many questions, but 508 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,640 one thing I wanted to hear from you is, is 1 some more examples. 509 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,840 I think that's always so helpful if you've seen examples where, 510 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,840 where things are working or offer a sort of an alternative. 511 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,280 But I know you and I have talked in the past about this 512 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,800 disconnect of the short termism of finance versus like the the 513 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,160 long term efforts that we need to be taking really if we're if 514 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,120 we're thinking sort of decades down the line of future 515 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,560 generations for the environment. So a couple of themes there, but 516 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,480 I just wondered if you sort of have other examples you wanted 517 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,400 to talk about, maybe reflect on that governance or long term 518 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:17,640 thinking? Yeah. 519 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,520 I think as we step back and I co-authored a report a few 520 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,840 months ago called Reimagining Nature Finance. 521 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:29,000 And there we touched on the kind of the deep design principles of 522 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,760 the finance system as we have it. 523 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,360 And let's remember that that finance system is a finance 524 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,440 system that that has evolved in particular over recent decades, 525 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,760 maybe over centuries and at most a couple of 1000 years old. 526 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,920 But nature herself is, is has evolved over hundreds of 527 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,040 millions of years. And yet the finance system, 528 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,320 particularly this sort of hyper accelerated neoliberal finance 529 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,920 system that that we've got is incredibly short term in focus. 530 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,200 It is point based and reductive. It is disembodied from place. 531 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:06,440 Right. And you can just see the 532 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,440 examples time and time again. Yeah. 533 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,880 And my father's side, you know, is from the the South Wales 534 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,920 valleys. And you see capitalism that sort 535 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,280 of came through and and there was a brief sort of flourishing 536 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,480 for 100 years. And then capitalism moves on and 537 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,880 the environmental devastation and social devastation, you 538 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,480 know, continues a century on, right? 539 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,360 And you see time and time again examples of sort of how finance 540 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,440 system just moves on. It doesn't, it's not connected 541 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,120 to place. And finance is inherently 542 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,960 accumulative. It wants to just keep growing. 543 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:40,320 This idea of perpetual growth, which I think is so problematic 544 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,760 where nature recognises there are periods of growth and there 545 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,160 are periods of actually stabilisation and then there's 546 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,520 periods of decline by comparison. 547 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,080 Nature is complex, it's relational, it understands these 548 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,240 deep connections. It's moves resources around the 549 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,440 system to where it's needed as opposed to just accumulating 550 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,560 wealth in in one area. It's regenerative by design, 551 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,400 it's long term and it's fundamentally rooted and 552 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,120 embodied in place. And I think that's what we were 553 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,240 starting to explore in this report of what could a finance 554 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,360 system look like. And so just, I mean, sorry to 555 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,040 labour that a little bit, but I think it's those principles and 556 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,400 understanding some of those principles that that well for us 557 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,680 to discern, are we actually perpetuating business as usual 558 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,440 or are we actively working to support a different type of 559 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,800 system, a different financing of the future? 560 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,280 And I think that's what starts to tip the balance. 561 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,360 Again, these are going to be small examples to start with. 562 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,840 This is not about mobilising hundreds of millions of dollars, 563 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,240 but this is this is how I think we start to sort of discern 564 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,840 where this future comes from. Yeah, there's so many wonderful 565 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,960 kind of examples that I could point to. 566 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,360 There's more. There's a wonderful project up 567 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,680 in British Columbia and sort of northwestern US called Salmon 568 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,160 Returns, which is working the idea of salmon as this sort of 569 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,680 great sort of example of the cyclicality of life of where 570 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,920 they they only return to their birth place as they go back up 571 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,640 the river to die. And there's a wonderful 572 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,720 organisation that's supporting many community and indigenous 573 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,200 LED projects that are about restoring regenerating land, 574 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,760 right? They're really experimenting, 575 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,120 pushing the boundaries of of what regenerative finance might 576 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,920 look like. Canada is a hotbed of innovation 577 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,240 and indigenous LED governance mechanisms that I find really 578 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:39,480 inspiring. There are examples in the 579 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,880 Amazon, there's a wonderful organisation called Bio Fi 580 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,240 Project led by a lady called Samantha Power and she wrote a 581 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,560 book around bioregional financing facilities and this 582 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,360 idea of sort of bioregionalism and how that can actually 583 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,800 support sort of longer term regeneration in place. 584 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,320 And they've just come up with a design for the Amazon Sacred 585 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,920 Headwaters initiative in the Ecuador, Peru of the headwaters 586 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,640 of the Amazon. So the sort of wonderful 587 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,400 examples, they're closer to home. 588 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,719 There's examples we're starting to look at how do you start 589 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,480 stacking different types of environmental payments to 590 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,719 support long term regeneration? And obviously you see it with 591 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,360 projects like Natigal, but like NAP and that these sort of 592 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,719 exemplar kind of projects that are there, but but starting to 593 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,840 really think, how do you take sort of longer term regenerative 594 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,600 principles into that? And so I chair the board of the 595 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,520 Trust for Oxwich's environment and then starting to do 596 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,360 wonderful projects, working with BNG revenues for local land 597 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,840 owners, but also working to really inspire communities to 598 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,920 drive regeneration at the local level. 599 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,600 So I'm really interested in sort of this idea of localism as one 600 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,400 of the aspects of how we can do that. 601 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,560 There's many, many examples, but it's the quality of that 602 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,080 engagement, it's the values, it's the behaviours and the 603 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,680 principles that we're holding that I think are going to start 604 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,440 tipping the balance towards what that more regenerative future 605 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,880 might be. I love that because I think we 606 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,960 can often think what do we need to do? 607 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,760 Create that will ultimately change the system like something 608 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,440 new, some new institution, some new instrument. 609 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,760 But actually what I'm hearing you say is that system change 610 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:30,200 will really come from probably at first intentionality, 611 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,480 different thinking and then through principles that 612 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,880 influence design of projects. And I do think there's a huge, I 613 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,120 think you can feel the zeitgeist for place based work. 614 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,600 I think, and I mean, certainly in the UK, because some of 615 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,400 that's led by devolution, that people are returning to that 616 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,680 thinking. But also I think people 617 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,560 recognise that resilience starts with that local approach, 618 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,520 whether it's, you know, social resilience, environmental 619 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,960 resilience, economic resilience. I'm really conscious of time. 620 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:02,120 It's just so much. I'd love to ask and I'm sure 621 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,360 everyone else has got so many questions for you, but they'll 622 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,720 be able to find you, I'm sure. And we'll, we'll, we'll mention 623 00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:08,120 where they can find you at the end. 624 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,760 But just to kind of wrap up, I mean, I think people might, 625 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,040 might listen to this and feel, OK, but what do I do? 626 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,920 What would you recommend? Because we're sort of doer 627 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,560 people, aren't we? Rather than being people, which 628 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:23,600 is part of the problem, I'm sure. 629 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,840 So is there any sort of work you recommend following Books you 630 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,400 recommend? Actions that we can start to 631 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,880 take? So many. 632 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,920 I want to just make one thing clear before I just get to that. 633 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:42,120 I think I, I want to be clear. There is no critique of people 634 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,760 who are working on nature finance within the system and 635 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,760 that, that all of that is important. 636 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:51,560 And, and what I'm starting to argue more and more is that it's 637 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,640 insufficient and we've got to be bolder and it grasping the need 638 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,560 for deeper transformation as well. 639 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,240 And then then just to finalise that, it's that that 640 00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:05,840 transformation, I think I've lived in a world for 25 plus 641 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,680 years believing that change was going to come top down. 642 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,280 And this is the whole premise of places like Davos and, and 643 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,800 right, that if you just get CE OS and heads of state, right, 644 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,800 those people are actually more embedded in the system. 645 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,360 They've got more to lose. It's far harder to see how 646 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,400 change is going to come from the centre of the system. 647 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:33,600 And if you look at all the old stories and, and if you look at 648 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,400 where change really happens, change mostly occurs from the 649 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,000 edges, right? And so one thing I would 650 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,160 encourage people to do is start to explore the edges because 651 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,800 change is going to come bottom up. 652 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,480 You talked about play space, the resilience of play space. 653 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,160 Change is coming through our ability and what we need to do 654 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,840 is get much smarter. How do we connect up much 655 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,400 smaller place based projects that start to point to a very 656 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,840 different future and start to actually break down this sort of 657 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,560 political bounds or political kind of ideologies that are 658 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,880 there because, you know, people live in communities. 659 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,400 You know, actually we need to start caring about our 660 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,400 communities and the people we live close to and the places we 661 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,480 live close to. That's where change is going to 662 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,200 come from. So in terms of inspiration, in 663 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,240 terms of books, I mean, I think the most important thing I would 664 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:27,360 say is actually for everybody working on nature finance, the 665 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,880 thing that gives me most confidence and most comfort is 666 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,600 Pierre. There is some visceral 667 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,600 connection we have to to nature herself of remembering that we 668 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,040 are nature, we are not separate from nature. 669 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:45,520 And so actually spending the time in nature is for me the 670 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,320 greatest opportunity our community has to start to think 671 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,480 differently and act differently for the future and find the 672 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,080 courage and the boldness. For me it was, you know, finally 673 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,840 it was fasting down in Dartmoor and the wonderful, beautiful 674 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,360 Wilds of southwest England. I was fasting for four days and 675 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,600 there was this biblical deluge and the river rose, the river 676 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,680 Dart rose. And it was like there was a 677 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,160 moment of just realising, Oh my goodness, business that that I 678 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,480 am not separate. I am part of this and that, that 679 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,400 I finally need to find the courage to challenge this and do 680 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,920 and try and do this differently and try in a very small way be 681 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,000 an inspiration for others to to do that. 682 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,080 But that was nature herself speaking to me. 683 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,000 I don't want to anthropomorphize that. 684 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,720 But that's the the biggest inspiration I have. 685 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:36,880 But I would also say, you know, look at some Indigenous 686 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,320 scholarship. Robin Wolk Kimmer is probably 687 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,480 the easiest accessible. People talk about brainy sweet 688 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,880 grass, but the service Berry yeah, talks about an economy 689 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,800 that is based on gifts and abundance as opposed to an 690 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,400 economy that is based on extraction, right. 691 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,560 So Robin Walkimer's work, I think is great. 692 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,360 There's other many examples of that. 693 00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:02,720 You know, Kate Rayworth is a great inspiration for me of 694 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,600 actually writing about a different way of thinking about 695 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,000 our economy, an economy that works for all of life. 696 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,240 So Kate Rayworth's Donut Economics is a is an 697 00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:16,240 extraordinary book as well. I would. 698 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,440 I mean, there's so many examples of some of the things I pointed 699 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:25,640 to and the talk, but I would also point to, you know, the 700 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,680 science, right? We've we've just had it. 701 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,400 There's 12 and the Manchester meetings that I know you're a 702 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,440 big part of, right? But it, there's 11, which was in 703 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,760 Winthrop, Namibia came out with two reports. 704 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,160 One of the reports was commissioned in 2019 after the 705 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,720 global assessment which led up to the global biodiversity 706 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:48,720 framework of the Kunming Montreal Agreement. 707 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,680 But that transformative change assessment came in in December 708 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,640 2024. Should be required reading for 709 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,440 everybody working on nature finance. 710 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,080 It doesn't shy away from the need for transformation. 711 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,760 The scientists have been telling us for, for years, and this is, 712 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,200 I don't know how many authors, you know, hundreds of 713 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,200 co-authors, I don't know how many hours of, of, of human 714 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,400 endeavour have gone into that. But it's an extraordinary 715 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,920 compendium of the need for transformative change and how we 716 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,200 might go about it. It's the most important paper 717 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,080 that that for me and our agenda that nobody's heard of and very 718 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,400 few people have read and yet that that is a blueprint for 719 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,160 some of what we should be doing. So I could go on and on, but 720 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,600 I've talked far too much and I've loved it. 721 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,680 But I hope some of it's helpful. Oh gosh, all of it. 722 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,800 I think just to inspire a, a different ways of thinking as 723 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,040 well. I think all of us can, you know, 724 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,720 you're just there living your life, doing your job, and it's 725 00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:51,720 hard to take a breath to look outside and think, is this the 726 00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:55,920 most effective way, even if it feels extremely productive. 727 00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,160 And so, but so I do hope at some point there'll be a I'm just 728 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,840 throwing this out into, into the, this is my intention, maybe 729 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,800 seeing Asara festival at some point. 730 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,560 I think that would be wonderful to gather so many great people 731 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,960 together to sort of share some of this thinking. 732 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,400 And you know, I always think the more ideas you can put into the 733 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,160 ocean of consciousness, the the better and the more more likely 734 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,280 we'll withstand a chance of change. 735 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,440 Justin, it's such a pleasure. Thank you so much for all the 736 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,360 amazing work you're doing and for being sort of brave to to 737 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,720 think outside the box and challenge some of the status 738 00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:31,080 quo. Oh, thank you, Helen, and thanks 739 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,920 for everything you are doing and you have done at GFII know your 740 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,160 own time at GFI is is coming to a close. 741 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,400 And I salute your own decision to step away and so excited for 742 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,440 your next steps. And but yeah, excited to 743 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,640 continue this conversation in whatever form. 744 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,080 And but yeah, thank you for the opportunity. 745 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,440 Well, that is a total wrap on our Revenues for Nature series. 746 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,200 Thank you so much for coming along for the ride. 747 00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:07,880 I always welcome your feedback and love hearing what you're 748 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,360 working on. And you can find me on LinkedIn. 749 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,840 As I alluded to, this is my last episode of Financing Nature as I 750 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,960 will be leaving the Green Finance Institute at the end of 751 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,080 April. It's been an incredible 6 years 752 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,960 and I've so enjoyed working with such committed individuals in 753 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,960 this field of nature finance, both within GFI and, and all 754 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,320 over the world really. And, and many of you I'm sure, 755 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,480 and I know I'm heading off to a great team at GFI, but I'll be 756 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,720 taking a summer break myself to explore this broader question of 757 00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:42,680 how do we turn the tide on biodiversity loss, especially 758 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,600 for the UK? But one of my GFI Nature team 759 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,680 colleagues, Phoebe Tucker is actually she's going to pick up 760 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,680 the baton for a short 4 part series on UK nature finance 761 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,160 running in May. So do check that out. 762 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,240 She's going to be looking at water measurement tools, the UK 763 00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:02,520 carbon market and community finance and it's going to be 764 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,960 fabulous. I know, but it's been a pleasure 765 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,560 being your host. We have 2000 followers of the 766 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,840 podcast on Spotify alone and 10's and 10s of thousands of 767 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,080 downloads. And I must thank Robin Lieben 768 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,760 for all his editing support. But I wanted to leave you with 769 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,880 this. What is this bird that sings at 770 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,800 the very beginning and end of this podcast? 771 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:29,840 Because I picked it out like 4 1/2 years ago and I have no 772 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,080 recollection what that bird is anymore. 773 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:33,760 And I would really, really love to know. 774 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:39,000 So drop me a line if you do know no cheating and I will owe you a 775 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,800 beverage of your choosing. It's been a blast and thanks 776 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:43,240 very much.