1 00:00:15,260 --> 00:00:18,340 Hi, I'm Helen Avery with the Green Finance Institute, and 2 00:00:18,340 --> 00:00:21,980 you're listening to Financing Nature as we approach Oceans Day 3 00:00:21,980 --> 00:00:25,060 and the UN Oceans Conference. I'm joined today by Elizabeth 4 00:00:25,060 --> 00:00:28,020 Feel, Managing Directorate, Finance Earth, to talk about 5 00:00:28,020 --> 00:00:31,180 fisheries improvement funds as a mechanism to bring the supply 6 00:00:31,180 --> 00:00:33,540 chain together to pay for sustainable fisheries 7 00:00:33,540 --> 00:00:37,880 improvements. Actually it was corporate 8 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,000 partners who helped us to refine it and we're very supportive of 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,880 it because they've been funding fisheries improvement for a long 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,440 time, often in ad hoc ways. And so they actually have an 11 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,440 interest in it being more standardised. 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,880 It's helpful for them to have a sort of one stop shop where they 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,480 can say OK, this is the approach and we're just going to roll it 14 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,560 out across all of the areas where we have a risk in our 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,000 supply chain. So this isn't ACSR play, it's 16 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,040 really about where do companies that are involved in fishery 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,160 supply chains have a potential risk and so it's in their 18 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,560 interest to ensure that the overall health of the fishery is 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:21,320 maintained. Good morning, afternoon, 20 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:24,280 evening, wherever you are, and thank you very much for joining 21 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,440 us today. And next week, we are diving 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,720 into the topic of how we finance marine and ocean restoration, 23 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,560 and we're going to be looking at 2 very different models. 24 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,920 Today. We're focusing on the Fisheries 25 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,600 Improvement Fund, also known as 1/5 and as Elizabeth Beall share 26 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,560 who's joining us today, they are many fisheries improvement 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,640 projects that are doing exactly what that name would imply and 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,640 working towards global standards And finance. 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,000 Earth has been working particularly with Fips to test 30 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,280 out the potential to set up a structure for off takers of a 31 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,720 fishery up and down the value chain to pay for those 32 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,560 improvements based on volumes. And that work has kicked off in 33 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,240 Chile. So we're going to be going into 34 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,039 all of that today, but also Finance Earth is doing some 35 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:14,000 incredible work globally on developing these innovative 36 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,880 mechanisms for financing ecosystems beyond oceans. 37 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,920 And so Elizabeth and I will be touching a bit on that too. 38 00:02:29,150 --> 00:02:31,270 Good morning, Elizabeth, it's so nice to see you. 39 00:02:31,270 --> 00:02:33,510 Thank you for joining us today. Great to. 40 00:02:33,550 --> 00:02:34,910 See you too. Good morning, Helen. 41 00:02:35,150 --> 00:02:38,350 So we're going to be talking about the Fisheries Improvement 42 00:02:38,350 --> 00:02:42,320 Fund and the work that you've been doing there, and also more 43 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,160 broadly about some of the work Finance Earth is doing around 44 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,760 sort of supply chain models. But sort of diving into the 45 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,160 model and the mechanism straight away. 46 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:54,560 I thought it would be helpful to take a step back and talk about 47 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,960 fisheries improvement projects, because obviously that's what 48 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,920 the fund is enabling. So would you mind just sort of 49 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:03,480 talking to us about the problem you're trying to solve, Really, 50 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,280 what is a fisheries improvement project first? 51 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,880 Sure, yes. So fisheries improvement 52 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,680 projects are a proven model implemented across the world by 53 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:16,080 a range of NGOs, companies, industry associations, really 54 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,080 varies, but a fisheries improvement project is basically 55 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,760 a stepwise approach to improving a fishery and bringing it more 56 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,440 in line with global standards. So MSC Marin Trust also has a 57 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,560 improvers programme. So it's basically a set of 58 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,880 activities laid out to really improve this overall 59 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,840 sustainability of a fishery and can be implemented by a range of 60 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,680 different partners, as I said. And there are several all over 61 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,440 the world. Yes, there's over 150 in a range 62 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,640 of geographies differing in terms of the set of activities 63 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,720 that are implemented. They can be very basic or 64 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,560 comprehensive FIPS, as the terminology is and really 65 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,400 depends on the state of the fishery. 66 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,040 And then so moving on to the Fisheries Improvement Fund, 67 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,840 could you talk us through that? Sure. 68 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,960 So we started working with WWFUS about 3 1/2 years ago. 69 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,160 Now. Obviously they've been working 70 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,760 with a range of partners on fishery improvement projects for 71 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,680 a number of years and they brought us in to really rethink 72 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,160 the funding for FIPS. Historically, FIPS have been 73 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:27,520 funded through ad hoc donations, philanthropy and often have been 74 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,680 launched without sight of the full funding. 75 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,960 So, you know, piece meal here and there, OK, start a set of 76 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,480 activities. And then that's meant that FIPS 77 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,640 have taken quite a long time to deliver in many cases and have 78 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,480 often stalled as they look for more funding. 79 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,960 It's often, you know, resource constraint teams that are 80 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,200 handling both implementation and fundraising at the same time. 81 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,760 So really brought us in to think, is there a different way 82 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,000 to do this? Is there a way to have more 83 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,840 stable funding for FIPS? And so we really worked closely 84 00:04:58,840 --> 00:05:02,960 with WWF, but also a range of corporate partners to design the 85 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,760 fund and base that off of a volume based fee model. 86 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,160 So thinking about obviously the actors that are buying marine 87 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,640 products, whether that's fish or shellfish or otherwise are 88 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,200 buying certain volumes. And so the larger volume is you 89 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,040 know a bigger impact in that fishery. 90 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,000 So based on a kind of the more you buy, the more you pay type 91 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:28,080 of approach and setting a volume based fee at a level that would 92 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,240 cover the full cost of improvements that needed to 93 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,640 happen in that fishery. And then getting signed 94 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,480 agreements with the corporate actors which would be committing 95 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,960 to pay that volume based fee over the length of the fit. 96 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,920 So that was the real innovation that we designed together with 97 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,040 with WWF and the corporate partners about 3 years ago. 98 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,400 I mean, interested to hear, you know, were the corporate 99 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,280 partners sort of trying to think what the word is? 100 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,000 Resistant. I wasn't going to use that word, 101 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,360 but yes, let's go with that. Were they resistant in any way? 102 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,440 No, actually, I know people probably think, well, you know, 103 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,360 why would corporate partners agree to this type of model? 104 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,280 And actually it was, it was corporate partners who helped us 105 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:14,640 to refine it. And we're very supportive of it 106 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,360 because they've been funding fisheries improvement for a long 107 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,920 time, often in ad hoc ways. And so they actually have an 108 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,920 interest in it being more standardised so that they can 109 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,600 apply that same approach in every fishery. 110 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,200 Rather than doing something over here with this partner and 111 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,080 something different over here. It's helpful for them to have a 112 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,360 sort of one stop shop where they can say, OK, this is the 113 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,920 approach and we're just going to roll it out across all of the 114 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,440 areas where we have a risk in our supply chain. 115 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,840 So this isn't a CSR play. It's really about where do 116 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,560 companies that are involved in fishery supply chains have a 117 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,440 potential risk if that fishery fails or that, you know, the 118 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,280 stock is low, they won't be able to source as much product from 119 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:58,120 there. And so it's in their interest to 120 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,840 ensure that the overall health of the fishery is maintained and 121 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:04,920 that the livelihoods of people living and working in fisheries 122 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,360 are positive and, and renumerative against for the 123 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,320 licence operate and for the overall, you know, employees 124 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,400 that they're working with and, and all of that. 125 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,640 So they were very much on board from the outset and helped us to 126 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,440 bring in an innovation in the in the model as well where the fees 127 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,040 are recycled through which means that we don't have to raise as 128 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,440 much upfront capital because the volume based fees that we're 129 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,320 taking over time can be used to be paying the activities. 130 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,760 And so that reduces the amount of upfront finance that we need 131 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,600 to raise. So that came from the corporate 132 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,200 partners actually. So we're seeing more of an 133 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,200 appetite from corporates towards collective action. 134 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,760 Can you tell us about the pros of this? 135 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,920 But also I think we've spoken before about not being able to 136 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,280 bring in every off taker of a fishery into the fund. 137 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,680 And so it'd be great to sort of also hear how how your attacking 138 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,280 that when it comes to collective action. 139 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,360 So that is another element that the supply chain partners have 140 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,240 really liked is that it's a transparent way of, of 141 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,400 collaborating with their competitors and saying, okay, 142 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,240 well, we know if our two competitors are going to be in 143 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,560 this and at least we know they're going to pay on their 144 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,360 volumes and we're going to pay on our volumes, They really 145 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,960 liked that approach. It's also a way for them to 146 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,280 engage their customers or their suppliers as well to all join 147 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,680 forces to cover them. The cost, again, it's a shared 148 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,160 cost, um, of improving that fishery. 149 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,560 It's true we can't often cover the, the full volume of a 150 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,200 fishery that would be the ideal. But the approach that we've 151 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,880 taken so far is to target the major buyers. 152 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,240 So at least to be representing significant volume of that 153 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,919 fishery to try to cover as much as we can. 154 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:46,200 And that brings down the fee for everyone. 155 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,440 Obviously, the more players that are on board. 156 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,680 So the companies participating have an interest in bringing on 157 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,240 other companies. And so there's that incentive 158 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,120 built in as well. So could you give us an example 159 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,360 of the companies that are involved in the fund? 160 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,840 Yeah. So the partners that joined 161 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,720 right at the outset and we're really part of the design of the 162 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,440 fund have included the likes of Cargill and Spreading Mars has 163 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,080 been an integral partner as well. 164 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,760 At the launch of the fund, they committed to put $1 million / 5 165 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,720 years into the fund, which was great. 166 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:23,520 And other partners like the Walmart Foundation, Costco, 167 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:29,160 Sodexo, Giant Eagle, many others have have joined over the 168 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,400 course, but they were all part of the launch and are supporting 169 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,880 the first FIPP, which launched in Chile last year. 170 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,360 And what I find interesting about that mix is that you've 171 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,720 got, you know, like your classics, like your Cargill and 172 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,240 your Mars obviously who are using that product. 173 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,040 But then you've got, and it's close to my heart, a Giant 174 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,360 Eagle, which if you don't know about Giant Eagle, I, I only 175 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,400 know Giant Eagle because my partner is from my client. 176 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,840 It's a very large supermarket, as the Giant Eagle might imply 177 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,040 in Ohio. I don't know if it's elsewhere, 178 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,280 but but it's interesting that you've got and Costco as well. 179 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,360 So different players throughout a value chain, if you will. 180 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,320 Exactly, exactly. And also I mean I haven't even 181 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,000 named the Chilean companies that are involved as well. 182 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,360 So there are a range of Chilean companies active in the fib as 183 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,880 well. And so it's really important 184 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,280 that there is the buy in from multiple stages because that's 185 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,600 where you can really move the dial and where you're saying, 186 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,320 OK, this is not only a request from the retailer, this is also 187 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,400 something saying that, you know, the traders want to do, the 188 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,280 local fishermen want to be involved in. 189 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,880 You really need all of those levels involved to make it work. 190 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,200 Brilliant. So maybe we can talk about some 191 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,520 of the actions that happening, I would say on the ground, but in 192 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,800 the sea and how you're measuring and assessing that environmental 193 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,080 impact that you're having. Yeah. 194 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,680 So as I said, the actions can vary quite a bit depending on 195 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:55,480 the needs or issues in each fishery, but they typically 196 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:00,760 include things around assessing stock and setting quotas or 197 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,560 looking at where there's a need to adjust the amount of fishing 198 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:07,400 that's happening. If a stock is is at risk, 199 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,960 there's other activities around addressing the wider marine 200 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,400 environment, so looking at any impact on sea floor or other 201 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,200 species. There's also activities around 202 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,040 bycatch reduction. So that's about gear changes 203 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,880 often a number of activities around monitoring as well. 204 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,360 So monitoring exactly what the catch is, what's happening with 205 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,160 bycatch, but there's also a range of social activities. 206 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,400 So as I mentioned, really critical to be looking at how 207 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,920 workers on vessels are being treated, but also the wider 208 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,040 implications for local communities and livelihoods 209 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,000 around ports etcetera. So really a really a wide range 210 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,960 of activities. The social activities have been 211 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,320 getting more attention in recent years, particularly in certain 212 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,000 fisheries where there's a heightened risk of human rights 213 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,280 violations or issues on on vessel as well. 214 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:04,120 And that particular piece of the work, is that carried out by a 215 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,360 local NGO, is it WWF? And you mentioned that they're a 216 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,160 partner, obviously. Yeah. 217 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,440 So the the work is implemented in the Chile 5th that I 218 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,240 mentioned is led by WWF Chile, but also has other partners on 219 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,200 board like Bird Life for example, Environmental Defence 220 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,360 Fund. There's a range of local Chilean 221 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,360 partners as well that are are critical from academia to 222 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,240 government. So really a wide range of actors 223 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,480 that are carrying out the activity on the water and on the 224 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,840 coast. And in terms of monitoring that 225 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,560 you asked about, the system around Fips that exists is a 226 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,320 external, so a third party website 227 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,160 calledfisheryprogress.org where all Fips are registered. 228 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:50,200 And then they need to submit 6 monthly progress reports to show 229 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,000 how they're progressing against the set of activities that 230 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,000 they've registered that again are specific to their FIP. 231 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,320 And then an external verifier, if you will, we'll review that 232 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,800 report to say, OK, this is, is how we're ranking your progress 233 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,120 so that all stakeholders and you could log in right now to check 234 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,040 the Chile FIPS progress can see exactly how the activities are 235 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,640 advancing. And so that's really crucial as 236 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,920 well for us. And you know, sat in London 237 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,040 managing a fund that is supporting fisheries globally, 238 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,480 that we have an external third party mechanism to be monitoring 239 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,840 progress and that gives comfort as well to the supply chain 240 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,760 actors that are paying for the improvements. 241 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,960 And forgive me, it might be too early to say, but has there been 242 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,200 noticeable improvements based on these activities? 243 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,840 Yeah. So we launched about a year ago. 244 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,240 So the improvements particularly that are happening at the first 245 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,000 stage, we've front loaded a lot of the social activities. 246 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,480 So looking at putting that as a priority in terms of stakeholder 247 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,200 engagement, making sure that there's policies being developed 248 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:57,200 around how again, workers rights are addressed, but also to 249 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,600 increase stakeholder engagement in the FIP as a crucial first 250 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,960 activity. So obviously with the launch, 251 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,680 there was a certain amount of stakeholders already involved. 252 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,040 And then a lot of the work has been about, OK, let's continue 253 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,920 to increase the the volumes that are covered, the vessels that 254 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,280 are covered because then that overall will improve the impact 255 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,640 as well. So early days, as you say, it's 256 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:22,040 only been a year for the fund and a huge effort to get over 257 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,720 the line, I'm sure. And I know you're exploring 258 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,640 whether the fund can be replicated elsewhere, whether 259 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,160 this particular model can be replicated elsewhere and 260 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,840 improved upon. What are the lessons would you 261 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,400 say that you've learned or the challenges you've encountered as 262 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,080 you're looking to scale the model? 263 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,040 Yeah. So we are, I mean, we're 264 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,040 replicating the approach that we've taken in Chile in a number 265 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,400 of different geographies. We're currently scoping out the 266 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,040 potential for a FIPP in China, for example, again with some of 267 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,600 the same partners that are involved in Chile, so Mars 268 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,120 spreading Cargill. When we look at taking, you 269 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,240 know, the experience that we've learned through launching the 270 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,840 first FIP, there's a lot of it that is transferable in terms of 271 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,040 the contracts that we've created, the relationships with 272 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,440 the supply chain actors as I mentioned, who are operating 273 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,640 globally. But then there are the very 274 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,880 specific issues that you need to look at in each fishery and 275 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,600 think about who are the right stakeholders to involve in each 276 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,400 fishery. So that not that it's a 277 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,160 challenge, but there does need to be an acceptance of the time 278 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,000 that that takes in order to really get the right people 279 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,760 involved and the buy in from the right actors locally, but then 280 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,840 connect that up as well with the global actors that we're working 281 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,280 with. I would say another challenge is 282 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:39,160 that in some cases the FIP model isn't necessarily exactly the 283 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,240 right fit. And so that's where we've been 284 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,480 looking at. Are there other ways that we can 285 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,040 improve fisheries through this model, this volume pace fee 286 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,240 model? That doesn't necessarily have to 287 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,480 be a FIP. It can be something like the 288 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,360 adoption of a gear or technology that's going to have an 289 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,960 improvement in that fishery. So reducing bycatch, the same 290 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,080 types of things, but is actually the supply chain paying for the 291 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,720 expedited roll out of that year or technology. 292 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,640 It's something that we've been looking at and because we think 293 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,680 that that can help to unlock more opportunities to improve 294 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,760 fisheries where the A fit might not be exactly the right model 295 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,600 in in every case. And just to elaborate on that. 296 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,960 So why might a FIP not be the right model? 297 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,440 So a FIP again is around a set of activities which are bringing 298 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,200 that fishery to certification. Where a FIP might already be 299 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,640 certified, there can still be issues that need to be addressed 300 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,000 in that fishery or an interest from the supply chain in 301 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,520 improvement that is beyond certification. 302 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,640 And so it's really to cover that, the wider set of 303 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,920 improvements that that need to happen as well. 304 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,200 So we've looked at the revenue model and what it delivers in 305 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,120 terms of outcomes and who's delivering it and who's paying. 306 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,040 But can we talk now about the upfront financing and investment 307 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,360 part of the equation? So the Chilean FIPP, I believe 308 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,960 there's been a concessional loan that is being paid back by the 309 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,920 off takers. Could you walk us through that 310 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,200 financing piece of the puzzle? Yes. 311 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,760 So the loan for the first FIPP that we've launched in Chile is 312 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,960 provided by the Walton Family Foundation. 313 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,520 They're very much interested in looking at ways where they can 314 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,319 act as a catalyst for moving more private finance into 315 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:23,720 fisheries improvement in the oceans more generally. 316 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,119 And so we've worked with them to design this model. 317 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,040 They've been working with us from the beginning of around the 318 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,680 design stage as well in thinking about exactly what kind of terms 319 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,720 would be needed to test this model. 320 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,160 And so as the initial first fit launch, they, they provided, 321 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,760 yes, concessional terms in it around 1. 322 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,600 The fact that, but we do need to show that we are able to 323 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,800 generate interest. So an investor return at 5% for 324 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,360 the first VIP in Chile, but we won't actually need to repay 325 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:58,480 that to Walton. So they've accepted that as long 326 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,120 as we account for that, we can then reinvest it into other 327 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:03,320 FIPS. And so that's quite concessional 328 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,400 as well. And that will allow us to to to 329 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,040 make that money go further. But we'll demonstrate then and 330 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,080 allow us to motivate other investors to come in 331 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,160 demonstrating that we can generate an investor return. 332 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,600 The other terms are around given the fact that the repayment of 333 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,680 the loan is based on the supply chain companies making regular 334 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,000 quarterly payments. If the supply chain stops paying 335 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,720 for any reason and obviously we do have those legal contracts, 336 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,040 then Walton wouldn't require us to repay. 337 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,320 So there is that risk reduction for us as we as we pilot this 338 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,720 model in the first project. Well, I mean, that's a really 339 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,480 incredible mechanism that they're offering. 340 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,160 And we don't often hear of philanthropic capital being used 341 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,800 in that kind of innovative catalytic way. 342 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,080 I mean, do you see that that's going to be needed as you roll 343 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,720 out other models or as you said, is this given the confidence or 344 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,120 will it give the confidence to sort of regular capital coming 345 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:00,840 in at, you know, a regular rate? Yeah. 346 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,960 So I mean, I do think it is needed and I think it would be 347 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,560 great if a wider set of of foundations are also looking at 348 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,440 more repayable models that then can serve as a catalytic 349 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,280 approach to bringing in a wider set of investors. 350 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,200 So yes, initially we do think that type of capital is needed, 351 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,400 especially for the size of some of the Fips that we're looking 352 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,720 at, which may be too small for certain mainstream investors to 353 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,000 get involved in. That has been one of the key 354 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,640 challenges that we've faced as well that you were asking about 355 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,680 earlier is the size. And so it means that we need to 356 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,920 bring in a number of Fips in order to then pool them to get 357 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,440 to the scale that we can access a wider set of investors. 358 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,640 I mentioned that we're looking at ways we can support gear and 359 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,480 technology roll out. We're also looking at how we 360 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,040 could enable investment into the wider industry, so the 361 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,400 processing, the fleet, the port, for example. 362 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,880 And again, that will help us to unlock and approach investors 363 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,400 that need a bigger scale and so that have a higher minimum 364 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,520 ticket size. Because then we can bundle 365 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,800 together the activities around the improvement of the fishery, 366 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,120 while we have higher infrastructure improvements that 367 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,080 we're also supporting. And that can be around 368 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,560 decarbonization of processing, for example. 369 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,640 It can also be about decarbonization of the fleet and 370 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,680 the vessels. And so that's a real opportunity 371 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,360 that we think has a lot. Potential and is one that we're 372 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:29,000 exploring currently in the Maldives. 373 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,400 And that presumably is a model that is maybe more familiar to 374 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,040 investors because it's kind of like project finance. 375 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,800 Yeah, Infrastructure Terminal. So before we let you go, I think 376 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,120 there's so much interesting work that Finance Earth is doing. 377 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,560 And so I wondered if you could share some of the broader 378 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,480 initiatives that you're working on really focusing on this, you 379 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,800 know, challenge of how do we get private investment mobilised 380 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,240 into nature restoration, nature based solutions. 381 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,920 Yeah. So, I mean, I think we've gone 382 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,640 through a lot of learning in designing the fund and then 383 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,880 launching it. But it's been really interesting 384 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,920 working very closely with some of the supply chain actors that 385 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,040 are not only involved in fisheries, but also in 386 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,600 terrestrial supply chains and what is motivating them. 387 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,600 And as I talked about before, that's often about risk and 388 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,480 resilience in the supply chain and thinking about, so where do 389 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,640 they have see those key risks and where do they see the need 390 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,880 to build resilience in their supply chains. 391 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,720 And so we've now thought of taking the learning from the 5th 392 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,160 and applying that in terrestrial supply chains. 393 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,600 And we've worked over the last year and a half, for example, 394 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,240 with a range of partners including WWFUK and WWF Brazil 395 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,640 and the Responsible commodities facility on looking at how we 396 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,960 could develop a multi actor scheme like we have with the 397 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,880 5th. And to support taking degraded 398 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,160 pasture land in the Serrado region of Brazil and 399 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,160 regenerating it for soy production and what that might 400 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,080 look like with a multi actor model. 401 00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:58,800 And like we've applied with the 5th. 402 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,800 We've also earlier this year, in partnership with Soil 403 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,440 Association exchange launched exchange market with 1,000,000 404 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,800 lbs of funding from again, a multi actor scheme including 405 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,600 Tesco, Little Co-op, the Church Lloyd's banking group and a 406 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,640 range of other partners. And that's really about supply 407 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,360 chain actors joining together to address reducing emissions in 408 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:26,760 their supply chain and paying farmers who can demonstrate that 409 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,640 they've reduced emissions. And so that's, it's a really 410 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,760 exciting model around where can we bring down costs for supply 411 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,320 chain companies, build resilience in their supply 412 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,360 chain, addressing a key issue like emissions, but really 413 00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:44,400 potential to apply that same model to things like water or 414 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,280 soil health or biodiversity uplift, where a range of 415 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,000 companies can then pool funding. And that funding can go to the 416 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,640 farmers who are really on the frontline of implementing 417 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,240 actions and can be paid for the the risk that they're taking, 418 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,080 the time that they're taking, and that that can be another a 419 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,240 source of revenue for them. I. 420 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,240 Mean, it does seem like we've now reached this point, you 421 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,720 know, in the last two years in particular, where businesses 422 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,680 have started to feel the pinch from climate change and nature 423 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,680 degradation compounding together. 424 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,400 And you know, that's a risk we've been talking about for a 425 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,680 very long time now. Is that your experience? 426 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,640 Have you seen this sudden increase in corporate action 427 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,760 that wants to be taken? We have. 428 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,040 So I think it's been interesting as I said to kind of see what's 429 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,640 motivating most and also where's most of the action happening. 430 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,560 And when I talk about action also where corporates actually 431 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,120 have budget and internal buy in to deploy funding in some of 432 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:40,880 these areas. And for a while that has mostly 433 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,600 been motivated by carbon. So around you know, where 434 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,880 there's an SPTI by commitment or commitment to be net zero, but 435 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,920 then there's internal budget to address that. 436 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,640 I think initially a lot of corporates felt like Scope 3 was 437 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,880 maybe too difficult. But now we're seeing more 438 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,280 traction with that and especially where there can be 439 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,880 collaboration with competitors and other in their supply chain 440 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,840 and they can see that there's again a reduction in costs by 441 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,480 collaborating. More action happening there as 442 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,920 well as more guidance comes out around how to do that credibly 443 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,440 and in a way that is not going to result in double counting, 444 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,240 for example. And we're now seeing more of an 445 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,600 uptick in other areas. So I think water is a key one 446 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,160 where obviously water risk and what that means for various 447 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,600 commodities in different geographies, but also around the 448 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,160 impacts of climate change. So where climate change is 449 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,760 actually creating a problem in a supply chain like a pest 450 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,040 outbreak. And so we've been looking at 451 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,520 models, for example, in Cote d'Ivoire, where there's a a 452 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,240 significant outbreak of a pest in cocoa production that's a 453 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:51,000 real risk for buyers of cocoa. And so in getting them to 454 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,000 collaboratively address that in their supply chain and also 455 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,200 renumerating farmers who are then, you know, taking on the 456 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,560 risk of taking out those plants and replanting, we're starting 457 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,000 to see more action on both sides, I would say. 458 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,760 So both on the mitigation side, but also on on adaptation and 459 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,880 where resilience can be built. Which means like we might 460 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,080 actually start to get these revenue models that we've been 461 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,360 searching for for a long time that can attract that large 462 00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:19,680 institutional investment in. Before I let you go then just 463 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,640 one thing, obviously, this is going out over the UN Oceans 464 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,240 conference and the Blue Economy Forum. 465 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,520 And I just wondered if you have sort of any hopes or wishes for 466 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,280 sort of coming back to the marine side, which is often left 467 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,520 out of these conversations. I feel it'd be great to hear 468 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,760 what what you're hoping for. Yeah. 469 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,280 I mean, I think beyond the work that we're doing with the fund 470 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,760 and with supply chains, we're doing quite a lot of work with 471 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,520 coastal communities around building models that will work 472 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,960 for coastal communities in general and a wider and 473 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,600 seascape. And so that's something we're 474 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,360 excited about where this model can fit into a wider mosaic of 475 00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:01,000 activities because it is so critical to be looking at that 476 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,680 range of livelihoods, which could be fishing is 1, which 477 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,000 people often associate fishing is harming actually the natural 478 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,400 environment. And So what we're really hoping 479 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,520 for is a more joined up conversation where fishing is 480 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,160 actually where you can make it sustainable as one part of the 481 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,520 solution. And then there's other models in 482 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,680 terms of obviously mangrove restoration and carbon around 483 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,440 that or looking at seaweed production and and other 484 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,480 seagrass restoration. A range change of activities to 485 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,240 exist in a kind of mosaic in that seascape or coastal 486 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,000 landscape is really what we're excited about and hopeful that 487 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,360 there will be more kind of joined up approaches around 488 00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:41,920 that. And I know I said finally and 489 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,920 just one more on this, obviously people are really interested in 490 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,840 blue carbon. I mean, where do you think we 491 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,360 are in terms of being able to sell blue carbon as part of 492 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,840 these restoration packages at Seascape level as you said? 493 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,760 Yeah, I'm really interested in blue carbon. 494 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,240 There's been challenges in terms of the code development and 495 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,360 exactly how can you quantify exactly how much, you know, 496 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:08,200 carbon is really being sequestered and is permanent and 497 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,400 all of that. Where we've seen more traction 498 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,040 is around paying for the outcome rather than a tradable credit. 499 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,520 So really thinking about reporting on the set of 500 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,520 activities and the associated outcome of those activities, not 501 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,240 just related to carbon but to wider marine biodiversity as 502 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,280 well, all that can be created. We've been working as well on a 503 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,840 token approach. So our work in the UK with 504 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,480 Plymouth and we've been working on a seagrass token and looking 505 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,280 at whether that model could work in terms of talking about, you 506 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,600 know, the associated carbon with that token. 507 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,200 But also looking at where there's the potential to at 508 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,040 least get traction in some of the areas where the science is 509 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,680 more developed, like mangrove restoration, for example. 510 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,640 So that's where we've been working with the range of 511 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,160 partners as well in in Swyo region to look at how those 512 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,320 models might be implemented more broadly. 513 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,200 Well, Elizabeth, it's been fantastic having you join us 514 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,160 today. Thank you just so much. 515 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,400 I know I've learned a lot and I can hear that you're being 516 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,440 called to go. So I think we should let you do 517 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,000 that and just really looking forward to hearing all about 518 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,880 your work as it develops. Great. 519 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,360 Well, thanks so much for having me, Helen. 520 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,040 Well, thanks for listening. And that is it from us today. 521 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,320 If you want to find out more about Finance Earth and 522 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,880 Elizabeth's work, you can head to Finance Dot Earth. 523 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,560 We also have a full case study on the 5th on GFI Hive. 524 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,280 And next week, I'm joined by Nicholas Pascal at the Blue 525 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,200 Alliance to talk about their model very different around 526 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,880 funding the enforcement of marine protected areas through 527 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,720 the development of local reef friendly businesses. 528 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,360 Looking forward to that one. If you're off to the South of 529 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,800 France for the conference, please enjoy. 530 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,080 My colleagues will be there. If you're interested in meeting, 531 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,680 do reach out. We've heard also from some of 532 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,960 you about new models and some ideas for the podcast, so thank 533 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,800 you very much for that. We will endeavour to build those 534 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,840 in, but till next time I hope you all have a great week.