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Hi, I'm Helen Avery with the 
Green Finance Institute, and 

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you're listening to Financing 
Nature for our penultimate 

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episode of the series. 
I'm joined by Harvey Locke, who 

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has been an advisor to 
governments on conservation for 

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decades, as well as currently 
holding the position of Vice 

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Chair for Nature Positive for 
the IUCN World Commission on 

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Protected Areas. 
And we're going to be talking 

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about some very big ideas to 
solve our wicked problem of 

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biodiversity loss. 
We've had a very strange view 

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that is circulated when you talk
about money in the economy. 

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You hear these words. 
Well, the economy cannot afford 

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to protect the environment. 
That's completely. 

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Idiotic. 
The environment is the context 

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for all human activity. 
I think we need to have a bigger

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scale conversation. 
About how money intersects with 

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those big issues and how we can 
have a conversation of how large

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scale finance, large scale 
corporate activity can be 

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aligned with the imperatives of 
getting ourselves back in line 

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with the context for all life 
and all economic activity, which

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is a healthier system. 
Hello and good morning, good 

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afternoon, good evening, 
wherever you may be. 

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And yes, we are back with the 
final two episodes long promised

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and long overdue about this 
season. 

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And I'm really thrilled we're 
going to be wrapping up this 

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season with some great guests. 
Last year, you'll recall we 

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focused on very practical 
solutions. 

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We looked at compliance markets.
We looked in the US and 

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Colombia. 
We looked at collective action 

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models with Lestari and Lens and
finances, Fisher improvement 

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projects and funds. 
We looked at the role of 

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transition plans in turning 
disclosure into investments. 

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And I promised that we would end
the season. 

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With a bit of a. 
Different take with two guests 

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who could maybe encourage us to 
think even bigger and to 

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question our current approach to
nature finance and provide us 

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with some food for thought as we
bring this season to a close. 

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So today in our penultimate 
episode, I'm thrilled to say 

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we're going to be joined by 
Harvey Locke. 

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Harvey has had an incredible 
journey that we will talk about,

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an amazing career. 
But over the last 18 months or 

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so, he has been exploring with 
experts around the world what 

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financial mechanisms are we not 
considering for what he calls 

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the very wicked problems that 
we're facing right now with 

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biodiversity loss. 
And if we thought really big and

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if we thought bold, what would 
and could we develop that would 

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unlock investment at scale for 
the protection or the 

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restoration of nature? 
What are we missing? 

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What are we not thinking about 
South today? 

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He's going to be sharing with us
some of the ideas that he's been

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gathering. 
And we'll be talking natural 

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asset companies, if you remember
those from a few seasons back, 

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accounting treatments, 
insurance, war bond models and a

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lot more. 
We've got a lot to cover off 

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today, so let's get going. 
Well, Harvey, hello. 

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Thank you so much for joining us
from Canada. 

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It's my pleasure. 
You know, the the essence of 

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these last few episodes of the 
series is really about sort of 

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coming together and thinking 
about, OK, maybe, you know, all 

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these wonderful models are in 
existence. 

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We're looking at sort of ways to
finance nature. 

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But actually, do we have to come
up with some new thinking? 

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Are there things that we're 
missing? 

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Is there a sort of a reimagining
of the way we're thinking about 

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nature finance? 
Is it working? 

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Because we seem to be at a bit 
of an impasse, I would say, at 

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the moment around it. 
Can we get corporates to move? 

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Can we get the finance to move? 
MDBS, DFI, blended finance still

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not going anywhere. 
So I know that you have spent 

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decades working at the 
intersection of conservation and

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protected areas and mobilising 
private finance for nature, and 

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you've given this a huge amount 
of thought. 

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So I wondered, before we start, 
for those who don't know you, 

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could you just kind of walk us 
through your own journey and 

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where and where you've got to at
the moment and sort of tell us a

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bit about what you've been doing
the last few months? 

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Well, I'm a Canadian and I 
describe myself as a tree 

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hugger, so that discloses my 
biases right up front. 

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I actually was a barrister for 
14 years and I stopped doing 

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that to devote myself to nature 
conservation full time in the 

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late 1990s and I had the 
pleasure. 

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Of working with a lot of top 
scientists. 

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In a lot of settings also, I've 
been influenced by relationships

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with Indigenous colleagues 
who've been interested in 

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conservation as well. 
And what I've come to realise 

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is. 
There, there's some. 

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Really big things we need to. 
Tackle. 

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So the first big thing I got 
involved in was this idea that 

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parks as islands weren't going 
to make it through time, so we 

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needed to think about them being
interconnected across the 

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landscape. 
And that led to be helping to 

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create something called the 
Yellowstone to Yukon 

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Conservation Initiative, which 
is widely regarded in the world 

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as sort of the leading 
innovation around these 

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interconnected protected areas. 
And then I got started asking 

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the question, well, how much do 
we need to have in protected 

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areas? 
And that led to an idea called 

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Nature Needs Half, which is the 
idea that we need to protect at 

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least half the world. 
And I also became very 

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interested in the intersection 
between nature and the climate 

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and was fascinated why we were 
treating those as separate 

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topics when very clearly they 
are not. 

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But they've been treated like 
separate topics, which is a 

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problem. 
So I started working on that 

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about 15 years ago and all of 
that sort of came forward 

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towards the negotiation of the 
what's now the Kunming Montreal 

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Global Biodiversity Framework. 
And I was very involved at the 

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global level and a consultation 
for the IUCN World Commission on

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Protected Areas about, well, how
much of the world do we need to 

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protect and what would it take 
to protect biodiversity if 

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that's what we really are trying
to do? 

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What's the answer? 
Not what's progress, but what's 

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the answer? 
And then I was asked by the 

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Government of Canada to take a 
leap from that and to serve as a

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special advisor during the cop 
process, and they asked me. 

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To look at how to increase 
private finance for the global 

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biodiversity framework. 
So I had six months to work on 

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that, think on that and. 
Discover that there's a huge gap

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in the motivations for private 
money, the need for private 

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money to support nature 
conservation and the climate. 

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And so we have a gap in the 
architecture of how money can 

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flow to this necessary thing on 
the private side. 

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So since then, I've devoted the 
large part of the last three 

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years to trying to solve that 
problem. 

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But I've had the luxury of 
looking at it at a deep 

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conceptual level as opposed to 
just trying to make things work 

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with the existing tools. 
Because I don't think we can't. 

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I think we the existing tools 
are fine, but they don't 

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fundamentally go to the problem 
of the great market failure, 

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which is that nature is worth 
more debt. 

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Than alive in the market and we 
need nature to be worth 

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something in the market if we 
want to reverse this trend or 

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halt and reverse the loss of 
nature which is the goal. 

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Of the global biodiversity 
frame. 

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So I know you've sort of been 
thinking about these, as you 

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say, wicked problems, if we can 
call them that. 

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So do you see sort of the wicked
problem that you're trying to 

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solve is the the valuation beats
because I know it goes beyond 

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that. 
Like there's there's many wicked

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problems within financing nature
restoration, protection where 

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you say so do you see what I 
mean? 

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So I wondered if you could sort 
of share, you know, what are the

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wicked problems that you are 
specifically working on when it 

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comes to finance and nature? 
Well. 

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The the central problem. 
Is that we don't value nature, 

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but we value the products of 
nature, and that was fine as 

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long as we lived on an infinite 
world. 

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And we could just continue to 
gobble up what we call natural 

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resources and turn them into 
higher levels of value for 

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transactions and markets it. 
Became manifestly not fine when 

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we understood that the Earth is 
a closed system. 

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And that we're starting to 
exceed its capacity to generate 

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the things that we're 
exploiting. 

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And that's not what we're 
experiencing now. 

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We're experiencing. 
Climate change? 

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Well, that's just moving too 
much carbon out of the ground 

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and into the sky, depleting the 
oceans of fish, heating the 

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ocean up, drawing down too much 
water, and draining the aquifers

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to keep going. 
These huge things we're doing 

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because we don't have our mental
model right for economic 

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activity in the context of a 
finite planet, and externalising

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those costs has been a really 
great. 

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Way to do business that leads to
the accumulation of capital, the

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development of wealth. 
The development of wealth has, 

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generally speaking, benefited 
people, particularly in the 

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global N, but not exclusively. 
But what we're? 

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Doing now is we're actually 
threatening the accumulated 

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capital by degrading the very 
context in which business 

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operates. 
So I think that there's a a 

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need. 
For finance to protect itself by

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protecting the planetary systems
on which that finance is based 

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and on which it is wholly 
dependent upon. 

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And we've had a very strange 
view that is circulated when you

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talk about money and the 
economy. 

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You hear these words. 
Well, the economy cannot afford 

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to protect the environment. 
That's completely idiotic. 

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The environment is the context 
for all human activity, 

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including everything humans do, 
their families, their lives, 

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their eating, their 
relationships, and their 

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economic activity. 
And the economy is solely there 

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to serve people and is a 
creation of people. 

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And it's a nested hierarchy. 
It's not a set of competing 

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interests like the Venn diagram 
of the of the SDGS. 

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It's not that at all. 
There is only one context for 

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all life, and that's the Earth. 
There's only one context for the

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economy, and that's human 
society. 

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And human society can even exist
without an economy. 

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But an economy cannot exist 
without human society, and human

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society cannot exist without a 
healthy ecosphere on which 

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humans can breathe and drink 
water and eat. 

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It's a very clear thing that we 
need to get clear now when it 

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comes to talking about money, 
because money right now is a 

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driving force of the 
destruction. 

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We need money to be a 
constructive force in the 

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restoration of halting and 
reversing the loss of nature, 

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stabilising the climate, pulling
back from other planetary 

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boundaries. 
That's the wicked problem. 

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And that message has has been 
relayed for many years now, 

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hasn't it? 
But it's just not getting 

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through. 
And so almost like the what what

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are your thoughts about sort of 
where we are? 

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I mean, I know you're saying 
you're thinking about, OK, how 

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do we come at this from a 
different angle? 

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And we'll talk in a moment about
some of those newer angles that 

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you're you're thinking of. 
But I mean, what's your thought 

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about why? 
I mean, is it ever going to get 

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through if we just carry on 
relaying this message? 

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It seems not. 
Yeah, I think the challenge has 

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been that we've we've we've had 
messages what I might call mid 

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level. 
So within the a mental. 

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Playing field that we never make
expressly articulate. 

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And here's the fundamental 
challenge. 

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My work, my biases, my 
underlying assumptions were that

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the environment is a public 
good. 

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It's a public problem. 
It needs government, which 

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represents the public, to be the
solution. 

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Government can do that. 
By protecting areas, government 

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can do that. 
By regulating industry, 

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government can do that by 
financing that which is 

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necessary to achieve a healthy 
relationship between humans and 

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nature. 
About 10 years ago on the Paris 

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Agreement, government said we 
can't afford to do this without 

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the participation of the private
sector. 

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So we have that conversation in 
the context of what those of us 

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who care deeply about these 
concerns want money to do. 

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What we haven't really done much
thinking about is how money 

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works and what money wants so. 
We need to think. 

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About the way that money flows 
and influencing the way that 

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money flows for money's reasons.
And of course, money doesn't 

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have an entity. 
I'm talking as though money is 

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real money's. 
Money's a human. 

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Creation to serve a purpose that
serves people. 

232
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And you know, essentially 
private money can't do the 

233
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,120
public good as much as those of 
us who are interested in the 

234
00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,640
public good would like it to. 
Money has to make money in the 

235
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,720
private system. 
I may or may not like. 

236
00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,640
That, but it's a fact, so. 
We need to start. 

237
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,760
Having conversations that are 
based on what I'll call the, 

238
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the, the iron rules for money 
and the iron rules for money is 

239
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:08,960
that money needs to make money 
if money is going to get 

240
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,920
invested or money needs not to 
be lost, which is, you know, the

241
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,040
other side of money. 
You know, there's this the 

242
00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,680
simple line about the stock 
market that it's based on 2 

243
00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:23,360
principles, fear and greed. 
When it comes to private money 

244
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,880
that's expressed more gently as 
in it's you can invest in it for

245
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,360
a return on capital or you can 
insure it to prevent the loss of

246
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,720
capital. 
So investment for capital 

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00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,520
appreciation or insurance are 
the. 

248
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,480
The two faces of financial 
participation that could be 

249
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,040
brought to. 
Bear to participate actively in 

250
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,120
nature finance that stabilises 
not only biodiversity, 

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understood as species, but the 
actual functioning of the 

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00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,800
planet, the relationship between
nature and the climate, the 

253
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,640
bigger scale issues. 
I think we need to have a bigger

254
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,240
scale conversation about how 
money intersects. 

255
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,640
With those big issues and how we
can have a conversation of how 

256
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,400
large scale finance, large scale
corporate activity can be 

257
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,480
aligned with the imperatives of 
getting ourselves back in line 

258
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,080
with the context for all life 
and all economic activity, which

259
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,480
is a healthier system. 
So it's a slightly different 

260
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,080
approach I think than sort of 
going right, well, how can 

261
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,080
finance be used here for this 
conservation project? 

262
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,640
It's more about how can we look 
at the way money works and and 

263
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,240
build a system that works for 
the environment around how money

264
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,600
works. 
If there's some understanding, 

265
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,040
there's like a nuance in there 
instead of just sort of 

266
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,400
shoehorning innovative finance 
models into small conservation 

267
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,880
projects, which is wonderful and
we need that too. 

268
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:46,760
If I does that feel fair to you?
Yes, I'm advocating for the art 

269
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,000
of the necessary instead of the 
art of the possible. 

270
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:50,960
Right. 
And an awful lot of what we've 

271
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,440
done with green finance has been
the art of the possible. 

272
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,800
How do you tweak things? 
It's sort of you're backing into

273
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,280
solutions by accreting them to 
existing models. 

274
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,440
And what I'm saying is, what if 
we just looked at the core 

275
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,560
economic propositions that 
investors and businesses need? 

276
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,880
To work with as their rules of 
the game and see if we couldn't 

277
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,240
construct some system that makes
those rules of the game. 

278
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,480
Benign in relation to the Earth 
system as opposed to 

279
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,680
destructive. 
And why this is important is at 

280
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,720
the end of the day, capitalism 
is the economic model that 

281
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,320
largely we follow, and 
increasingly all over the world,

282
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,760
capitalism has the seeds of its 
own destruction sown. 

283
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,320
Into it the way it's. 
Behaving right now, therefore, 

284
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,800
capitalism is either a failed 
system. 

285
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,000
Because it can't adjust to the 
seeds of its own destruction. 

286
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,920
Or it's the robust and resilient
system that people say it is, in

287
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,400
which case it would adjust to 
this reality and make necessary 

288
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,760
changes to perpetuate itself. 
That's the game. 

289
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,880
And expressed like that, you see
the conversation isn't really 

290
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,800
anymore about the environment. 
It's about the preservation of 

291
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,840
capital and the preservation of 
proper conditions for business, 

292
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,760
which is of course a requirement
for that. 

293
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,160
Is a healthy environment. 
So you get at the problem 

294
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,720
through looking more profoundly 
at the issues associated with 

295
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,680
wealth, the generation of wealth
accumulation and the protection 

296
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,000
of wealth as it relates to the 
context. 

297
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,360
For that wealth, and that's what
I've been trying to work on with

298
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,680
you and and other colleagues 
around the world, is let's 

299
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,480
imagine that instead of this 
being a problem or that we're 

300
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,760
trying to accrete ourselves to 
existing systems, what if we 

301
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,800
thought up ways? 
Of growing capital, of growing 

302
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,360
wealth that involve protecting 
nature. 

303
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,800
What if we involved in 
preventing economic loss by 

304
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,720
ensuring nature's well-being to 
try try to move away from the 

305
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,720
the margins and into the what I 
call the bull's eye at the heart

306
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,240
of the problem? 
Yeah, it's really fascinating. 

307
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,400
So I know you've, as you 
mentioned, you've been 

308
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,520
travelling around the world 
bringing together finance 

309
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,280
experts, nature finance experts,
nature experts, and sort of 

310
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,560
seeing how do you come at these 
problems and this sort of 

311
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,640
reframing of what the problem is
that we need to solve. 

312
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:16,640
And you've sort of been starting
to put together some ideas. 

313
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,119
So I think we're all really 
excited just to hear if if there

314
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,800
are any of those ideas that have
come up you could share. 

315
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,040
I mean, maybe somewhere 
surprising, maybe somewhere more

316
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,760
fleshed out, maybe somewhere 
good ideas, but you don't think 

317
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,760
it's a go? 
Then we'd just love to hear 

318
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,160
like, what have you learned? 
Well, what I've learned is 

319
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,880
there's enormous interest on the
private capital side and on the 

320
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,760
operating business side in this 
problem. 

321
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:39,520
So this. 
Is a really? 

322
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,160
Positive thing to start with. 
This is not Treehugger's 

323
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,760
clamouring for attention. 
If you look at the Task force on

324
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,880
nature risk disclosure and these
huge number of large companies 

325
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,120
who've engaged in that, it's 
voluntary. 

326
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,640
It's because they're getting 
that there's a problem here that

327
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,480
they need to be concerned about 
for their own good reasons. 

328
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:04,680
Similarly, we have all the 
global frameworks we need for 

329
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,400
action. 
We don't need to negotiate 

330
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,560
anything else if we achieve the 
goals of the Paris. 

331
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,160
Agreement and the underlying UNF
Triple C if we achieve the goals

332
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,600
of the Kunming Montreal Global 
Biodiversity Framework and now 

333
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,120
the the new Convention on the 
Law. 

334
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:21,000
Of the sea and we would be going
an awful long way towards 

335
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,960
solving our problems. 
So it's not that we don't have 

336
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,080
the language or the scientific 
understanding or the interest. 

337
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,520
What we're missing is the. 
Thing in the middle. 

338
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:33,160
What's the bridge between these 
policy frameworks, these 

339
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,440
scientific imperatives and 
private money? 

340
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,400
So, you know, working with 
people like you, the green 

341
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,040
finance. 
Institute and others. 

342
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,200
I've had the the pleasure of 
convening conversations with 

343
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,880
colleagues of UN, Nature Finance
and others to say, hey, let's 

344
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,360
just think about this. 
Deeply fundamentally, you either

345
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:55,760
need to build something that 
provides a return on capital, or

346
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,720
you need to. 
Prevent the loss of capital or 

347
00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,600
the loss of income streams that 
are going on through something 

348
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:05,040
that's insurance like so maybe. 
If you'd like, I could. 

349
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,680
Walk through each of those 
individually. 

350
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:10,600
Yeah, go for it. 
So capital appreciation 

351
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,280
basically is the idea. 
That you invest today to have 

352
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,520
your capital increase tomorrow 
and if you can get revenue 

353
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,840
streams along the way that's 
great so the simplest terms, the

354
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,280
value proposition is the value 
proposition that gold works from

355
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,160
why do you buy gold you buy gold
because it's going to be worth 

356
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,040
more tomorrow than it is today 
that proposition is held 

357
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,600
spectacularly well through time 
but if you. 

358
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:41,600
Ask why is gold valuable? 
The answer is because gold is 

359
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,760
valuable. 
We don't even fill our teeth 

360
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,960
with it anymore. 
It's completely useless. 

361
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:50,440
And yet it's seen as this 
storehouse of value that people 

362
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:55,880
buy to to against the. 
Dangerous times financially and 

363
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,160
it outperforms stock indices in 
many countries. 

364
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,760
It's it's been a really good 
investment. 

365
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,960
Why? 
Because it's a good investment. 

366
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,000
Bitcoin. 
Why is Bitcoin valuable? 

367
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,080
The answer is because Bitcoin is
valuable. 

368
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,880
There's no other reason. 
It doesn't do anything. 

369
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:14,520
The idea that it might become a 
currency someday. 

370
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,880
So what you know that it's, it's
valuable because it's valuable. 

371
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:24,520
Similarly, you know, if you, if 
you think this through like art,

372
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,160
why is fine art valuable? 
Why does it gain value over 

373
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,120
time? 
Because it's valuable. 

374
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,160
It's not because of the canvas 
and the paint. 

375
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,160
It's because Monet did it. 
Or Picasso did it. 

376
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,880
So those are all perceived 
value. 

377
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,440
Nature is actually valuable. 
Nature makes the world go round.

378
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,280
So if we can create the 
understanding that nature is 

379
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,160
valuable, it should therefore be
investable. 

380
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,720
So the idea would be that you 
could represent that value of 

381
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,720
intactness and the things that 
it does for the world as a 

382
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,120
capital commodity that could 
gain value over time. 

383
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:01,120
So you said, but there's no 
market today. 

384
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:03,280
Well, there's a market the 
minute you have your first trade

385
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,080
and if the conversations going 
on for example in Europe about. 

386
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,200
The regulatory need to disclose 
impacts and dependencies of 

387
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,160
businesses. 
The potential conversation about

388
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,920
natural capital having to be 
shown on corporate balance 

389
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,320
sheets, well, that's the 
creation of a market. 

390
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,560
So you could. 
Have a share capital about 

391
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,480
protecting nature and the value 
represented by the share capital

392
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,760
is the value of intact nature, 
not the degradation thereof, but

393
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,640
the protection there. 
And along the way I encountered 

394
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,440
this idea of a natural asset 
company where in addition to 

395
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,080
that they incorporate the idea 
that in addition to the capital 

396
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,480
appreciation opportunity, you 
could think in terms of what are

397
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:48,120
called ecosystem services as 
flows parallel to financial 

398
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:49,880
flow. 
So we think of an investment in 

399
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,200
a in a company that has 
factories that would create 

400
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,800
products that provide flows of 
income over time plus your stock

401
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,320
value will go up. 
And we used to value companies 

402
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,840
based on just that, you know, 
what's the capital, what's the 

403
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,880
income streams and something 
like 8590% of corporate values 

404
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,880
50 years ago were based on that 
stock and flow of money well. 

405
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,920
Apparently that's completely 
flipped and about 85% of the 

406
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,120
stocks value these days is its 
brand and its image. 

407
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,760
Well, that's perceived value. 
So imagine if you could create 

408
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,920
companies that showed that 
there's potential income 

409
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,280
streams. 
From nature, and the only one 

410
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,400
that's now monetizable, even 
though carbon markets are very 

411
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,360
troubled, is the idea of carbon 
additionality. 

412
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:38,720
Plant trees, get some carbon 
draw down, get some money for 

413
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,520
that, whether it's the 
regulatory carbon schemes or the

414
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,760
voluntary carbon schemes. 
But there is an income stream 

415
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,120
for that. 
But imagine freshwater, imagine 

416
00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:49,040
wildlife. 
Imagine all the other. 

417
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,040
Things that are called ecosystem
services that nature produces 

418
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,760
being perceived as flows of 
value in relation to that stock,

419
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,720
which is a stock in intact 
nature. 

420
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:03,160
And if that isn't more valuable 
than gold, I'm confused. 

421
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,200
If that's not more valuable than
Bitcoin, what is wrong with the 

422
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,440
world? 
If that's not more valuable than

423
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,200
fine art, we're nuts. 
It's the logic of of the market.

424
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,840
And I and I might digress for a 
moment. 

425
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,000
You, you were going to say 
something. 

426
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,080
I was just going to say like 
it's a challenge really like 

427
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,800
natural asset companies. 
It's been an idea that's been or

428
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,800
we've had it on the podcast 
actually several years ago and 

429
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,480
it was it's it was re brought up
recently in England and I know 

430
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,760
I've been kind of reticent to 
get behind them because. 

431
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,440
You know, while I very much see 
the point you're you're making, 

432
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,120
it just feels like we're maybe 
missing a step. 

433
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,960
Perhaps you know that first step
is natural capital on the 

434
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,280
balance sheet as you mentioned 
and perhaps we're just jumping 

435
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,840
ahead. 
To the vehicle. 

436
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,960
Rather than solving that part 
first, I don't know. 

437
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,800
Or maybe you're saying it's the 
other way around. 

438
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,920
Actually create the vehicle and 
that will result in the 

439
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,880
valuations happening when it 
comes to NACS, but I don't want 

440
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,680
to take you off. 
Track if you were you were 

441
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,280
heading somewhere else, but. 
I'm happy to. 

442
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,920
Dive straight into that. 
So how you value stuff on the 

443
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,120
capital appreciation side is by 
creating a market. 

444
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,720
That's how you value stuff in 
economic terms. 

445
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,760
We valued nature and in. 
Many ways, you know, inherently 

446
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,400
I'm in love with it. 
That's a value. 

447
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,880
We have cultural values of 
nature. 

448
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,000
We've talked about valuing 
whales and valuing ecosystem 

449
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,600
services and everything and lots
of methodologies I'm sure you've

450
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,360
explored over time and many of 
the listeners will know about. 

451
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,160
But the fundamental question if 
you want to attach financial 

452
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,320
value to it has to be tradable 
in a market. 

453
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,640
So all you have to do is create 
a market. 

454
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:41,480
And when does the market get 
created? 

455
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:47,000
Like how gold has not been the 
measure of anything since the US

456
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,160
abandoned it at $36.00 an. 
Oz in 1970. 

457
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,480
So this idea that gold is a 
currency reserve is nonsense. 

458
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,160
It's just perceived as valuable 
and. 

459
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,760
There's huge gold reserves held 
by countries to protect 

460
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,480
themselves financially. 
Well, nature is way more 

461
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,040
important to all those countries
than their gold reserves is 

462
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,000
because that's, that's where you
get your water from. 

463
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,080
It's, it's we, we're just 
confused and, and I'll digress 

464
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,840
here into a moment. 
So there was a great market 

465
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,200
failure in the 19th century that
threatened to stall the 

466
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,600
industrial revolution. 
And that was that if you 

467
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:27,360
invested as an investor, you are
liable to the full extent of 

468
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,480
your personal worth. 
And if you invested with someone

469
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,560
else, you were deemed a partner 
and you were liable to the full 

470
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,280
extent of your personal worth 
for their misdeeds. 

471
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,240
That was a big barrier for even 
the richest person in England. 

472
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,720
Which was the richest? 
Country in the world by far then

473
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,960
couldn't finance a railway 
because the risk was too great. 

474
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,640
We had steam engines, we had 
railway capacities, we could 

475
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,120
build these things, we knew how,
but we couldn't finance them. 

476
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,680
So that led to the creation of 
the joint Stock company, which 

477
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,280
is a foundation of all stock 
markets in the world today. 

478
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,680
It created a mechanism, A tweak 
by government to create a 

479
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,000
market. 
So you can create a market for 

480
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,200
natural asset companies by just 
saying show natural capital on 

481
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,040
your books. 
Same type of thing. 

482
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,200
The tweak with it was made for 
this problem of of you can't 

483
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,120
raise money. 
Because of these liability rules

484
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,800
was create the joint stock 
company, what we call the 

485
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,000
corporation now and has two 
defining characteristics. 

486
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,120
You only can lose the amount of 
money you put in the bucket 

487
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:30,880
there and you're not liable for 
other investors investments. 

488
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,440
It's just your money by itself. 
That's your risk. 

489
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,680
You decide how big your risk is.
You put $10 in, you put $10 

490
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,880
billion in. 
That's your risk. 

491
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,360
You may lose it all, which you 
might gain. 

492
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,600
That is the foundation of every 
stock market in the world today.

493
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,160
A tweak by government to create 
the conditions that enabled what

494
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,000
needed to happen, happen so we 
can governments could play a 

495
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,120
role in creating a market here. 
As soon as they do, we're in 

496
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:59,440
business. 
And there isn't any more to it 

497
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,160
than that. 
If you unpack it and you know 

498
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,040
what, what you hear in response 
to this, like, well, I've heard 

499
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,040
about this idea before, but you 
know, where's the market? 

500
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,480
Where's the buyers? 
That's like, how does the how 

501
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,160
does the government get on board
with that? 

502
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,560
Simply, you know, a simpler way 
would be either a voluntary 

503
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,560
corporate or investment decision
that we need to show some 

504
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,280
natural capital. 
In our balance sheets. 

505
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,200
There's a market right now or 
people who say this is going to 

506
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,200
become valuable. 
I'm going to bet on it now and 

507
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,440
I'm going to start buying it 
now. 

508
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,000
Nature is way more valuable than
gold, than Bitcoin, than art 

509
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,760
combined multiplied by a 
billion. 

510
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,280
And that's how we have to get 
our shifts going. 

511
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:39,680
And these shifts are just 
perceptual. 

512
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,440
Shifts. 
There's nothing more to it than 

513
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,800
that. 
Gold is not valuable. 

514
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,320
And it's as simple as that. 
So. 

515
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,040
How do you create a market for 
that perception of value? 

516
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,720
And one of the ways that I think
it's helpful to think about this

517
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,160
nature, like we got in trouble 
thinking about valuing nature by

518
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,840
trying to reduce it to something
akin to the carbon market, which

519
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,840
is about trading molecules. 
So way back in law school, you 

520
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,400
learn something that the sale 
and movement and the laws of 

521
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,760
fungible goods like telephones 
or cars or computers. 

522
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,760
Is one set of rules because 
those things are all identical. 

523
00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:17,600
That's what the word fungible 
means. 

524
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,480
You can substitute for them and 
trade them in volume. 

525
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,640
So there's one set of rules that
applies to that. 

526
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,960
And then you cross the hallway 
and go see a different professor

527
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,800
to learn about real estate law. 
And real estate law is all based

528
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,520
on the. 
Proposition that real estate is 

529
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,240
unique. 
So if you have the department 

530
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,760
you're in, in London right now, 
if you put that apartment in 

531
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,760
Birmingham identical in every 
respect, it would be worth less.

532
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,080
Why is that? 
Location, location, location. 

533
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,240
What is location? 
Location is your situation in 

534
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,320
nature? 
Real estate is just a subunit of

535
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,520
nature that we have committed to
private ownership. 

536
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,160
So we need to think about real 
estate and nature as a set of 

537
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,280
rules that are based on 
uniqueness and their value 

538
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,600
situationally, not as tradable 
fungible things like carbon 

539
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,160
atoms. 
And This is why that whole thing

540
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,360
has gone so badly wrong, because
if you want to buy and sell 

541
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,360
pencils, you know they're not 
unique. 

542
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,000
As long as you get the same make
and model, then any pencil will 

543
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,800
do. 
They put the carbon atom. 

544
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,480
Any carbon atom will do. 
So it makes sense for a carbon 

545
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,160
market to say any carbon atom 
will do as long as it's not in 

546
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:30,880
the sky and it's stored 
somewhere else. 

547
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,840
Then you've you're dealing with 
your carbon molecule problem. 

548
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,360
OK, fine. 
That's not how nature works. 

549
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,160
Don't try to speak Greek in 
China. 

550
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,960
It doesn't work. 
Both are good languages, 

551
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,280
Mandarin and Greek, but there 
you, you don't speak one and the

552
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,800
other. 
And this is where we've gone so 

553
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,600
badly wrong with trying to nudge
our way into these other ideas. 

554
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,920
Let's think about nature as the 
context for real estate and what

555
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,360
are the propositions associated 
with the value of real estate? 

556
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,760
Well, location anyway. 
So, well, that's got to do with 

557
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,280
the commerce of a city like 
London. 

558
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:04,680
So the real estate's more 
valuable. 

559
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:06,720
Yes. 
And now talk to me about a 

560
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,440
property with a view and its 
value. 

561
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,720
Why does a property with a view 
have a value? 

562
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,640
Do we think it does? 
Oh, yes, they do. 

563
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,760
Why? 
Because it's got a beautiful 

564
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,520
view over nature. 
How about that? 

565
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,120
The value is actually nature, 
and this is what we've got to 

566
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,240
get straight in our heads and 
we've got to capture that value 

567
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,520
not in ways that degrades it. 
Or the deprives the owners of 

568
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,120
nature which is the public or 
indigenous peoples and local. 

569
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,680
Communities, we need to 
acknowledge that ownership of a 

570
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,280
common public good, but find a 
way to attach value to it so 

571
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,120
that the private sector can 
participate in its protection. 

572
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,720
And if you know this is a really
simple proposition, If this 

573
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,640
doesn't work, then money is in 
big trouble. 

574
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,280
OK, so that is NAX and 
valuations on balance sheet of 

575
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,440
ecosystem services. 
What other ideas have you been 

576
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,520
exploring? 
So let's go to the Amazon 

577
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,640
insurance idea, which is one I'm
I'm I'm really excited about. 

578
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,240
So I. 
I developed this with a group of

579
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,480
risk experts from the Boston 
area, courtesy of a friend of 

580
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,000
mine who convened a conversation
on a rainy afternoon. 

581
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,880
And we were just talking about 
this nature finance problem. 

582
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,560
And I mentioned the problem that
the Amazon is perceived as an 

583
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,480
environmental issue, right we. 
Clear the forest, we lose 1 of 

584
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,520
the greatest storehouse of 
species richness on the planet. 

585
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,120
We clear the forest, we have a 
carbon release to the atmosphere

586
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,920
that destabilises our carbon 
builds. 

587
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,400
We clear the forest and we 
degrade the the basic lifeways 

588
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,960
of the indigenous peoples and 
local communities who live 

589
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,920
there. 
All of which is reason enough 

590
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,920
for me to think it's a. 
Global problem that I'm part of 

591
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,440
it that I have to help solve. 
It hasn't been enough to save 

592
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,440
the place. 
We're continuing to knock it 

593
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:01,800
down. 
Well, the interesting thing 

594
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:07,200
about the Amazon is that it's a 
rainforest that rains on itself.

595
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,080
And this takes a minute to 
understand, but this is really 

596
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,760
important. 
We're taught in grade school 

597
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,880
that rain comes from the ocean. 
It falls on the land and runs 

598
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:18,960
back into the sea. 
That's true. 

599
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,560
That happens in the Amazon too. 
But the next rainfall is 

600
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,960
actually coming from the trees 
in part, where the trees are 

601
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,800
releasing their water vapour 
back into the sky into something

602
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,040
that's called the atmospheric 
river or the Flying River, and 

603
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,200
that continues to roll across 
the Amazon basin until almost 

604
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,120
most. 
Of the rain is actually coming 

605
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,520
from the forest by the time you 
get to the Andes mounts and the 

606
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:48,240
science that's been done is that
somewhere around 20% clearance 

607
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,720
of the Amazon forest, that 
system starts to break down. 

608
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,920
If it breaks down then it could 
transition through what's called

609
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,960
a tipping point to a Savannah 
system, a Savannah meaning grass

610
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,680
with trees in it. 
That would lead to the 

611
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,200
catastrophic loss of 
biodiversity, catastrophic 

612
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,000
carbon release and this 
environment and social justice 

613
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,840
loss for indigenous peoples and 
local. 

614
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,880
Communities. 
That's the environmental 

615
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,320
concern. 
But there's a huge economic 

616
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,200
issue because that rain then 
goes from the Amazon into the 

617
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,960
Rio de La Plata Basin, which is 
the agricultural heartland of 

618
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,480
South America. 
So the crops of Brazil, 

619
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,040
Argentina, Uruguay, Pargo, they 
depend on that rain coming from 

620
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,880
the Amazon. 
If that shuts down, something 

621
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,760
like 40% of the rain that goes 
into that region comes from this

622
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,560
atmospheric river out of the 
Amazon. 

623
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,320
You take away 40% of rainfall 
from agricultural region, you 

624
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,840
don't have a 40% loss, You have 
collapse, economic collapse. 

625
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,000
The one of the biggest food 
producing regions in the world 

626
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,880
is Brazil and Argentina. 
The biggest source of soybeans 

627
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,600
for China is Brazil. 
You shut down that system that 

628
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,080
depends on the environmental 
conditions in the Amazon. 

629
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,040
You create an economic crisis 
that would reverberate through 

630
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,680
capital markets. 
All over the world. 

631
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,040
Therefore, that system is 
insurable if there's an economic

632
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,199
loss that can be prevented by 
some action. 

633
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,800
This is why insurers pay for 
fire departments. 

634
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,520
They write fire insurance 
policies if there's no fire 

635
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,840
department in the community. 
They go build a fire department 

636
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,880
so they reduce the risk of 
burning down here. 

637
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,560
We can have the insurance idea, 
keep the forest standing in the 

638
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,120
Amazon to protect the economic 
interests associated with the 

639
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,040
loss of agriculture in South 
America. 

640
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,320
And we just have to reimagine 
the scale at which we're working

641
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,040
and the reasons for doing it. 
These reasons are economic. 

642
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,280
If they're economic reasons to 
prevent losses to money, that 

643
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,600
becomes an insurable interest. 
And so we have to think about 

644
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,360
how we could create some kind of
this project that engages all 

645
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,160
the necessary actors from those 
people who own the forest, if 

646
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,560
you will, the people who are the
custodians of it in some 

647
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,000
equitable way through to the 
global economy that would suffer

648
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,800
such an economic shock if that 
collapsed. 

649
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,840
If we're talking about the scale
of a problem that none of us can

650
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,120
afford even imagine happening, 
and it's at risk as we degrade 

651
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,680
the Amazon. 
So how about we don't degrade 

652
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,600
the Amazon and avoid this 
massive economic loss? 

653
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,880
So that's the. 
Foundation of this Amazon 

654
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,720
rainforest tipping insurance 
idea that we've developed and 

655
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,960
that we're talking with about 
people openly because the idea 

656
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,480
is so very big that you know 
that no one can control it as 

657
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,960
their own little private 
enterprise, except that the 

658
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,200
concept needs to be controlled 
for the public good in it. 

659
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,760
So we got to figure out a way. 
To do all this, but 

660
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,240
fundamentally the Amazon is too 
big to fail. 

661
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,080
If it's too big to fail, what do
you do? 

662
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,040
You step up and you solve for 
it. 

663
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,600
It's about insurance. 
It's about insurance like 

664
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,000
securities. 
It's about governments creating 

665
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,560
the playing field where this 
makes sense. 

666
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,000
It's about governments perhaps 
even taking on some of that risk

667
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,280
because they're bearing that 
risk anyway in their economies. 

668
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,400
It's like an enormous collective
insurance policy that multiple 

669
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,440
governments and businesses are 
paying into. 

670
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,320
Or or governments are even just 
underwriting it saying we'll pay

671
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,400
on the risk if there's a loss 
that it's it's. 

672
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,760
It's unimaginable to lose 1 of 
the world's great bread baskets 

673
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,240
due to clearing a forest. 
The cost of remedial action is a

674
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:29,080
fraction of the cost of the the.
Impact of the loss. 

675
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,160
So this is how I think we need 
to reimagine our problem. 

676
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,080
It's not how do I monetize a 
tree in the Amazon No. 

677
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,400
No, no, no, no. 
It's how do I value the Amazon 

678
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,520
Biome for what it produces for 
the world, including the 

679
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,400
economic outputs that depend on 
it, and then value that to keep 

680
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,880
it function. 
Then you're talking money to 

681
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,840
money. 
And I think this is what has 

682
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,280
eluded us. 
And you know a good segue. 

683
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,840
From this is into what you what 
I call the war. 

684
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,320
Bonds. 
Yeah, totally. 

685
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,120
Yeah, let's talk about that 
because I think that's 

686
00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:01,480
absolutely fascinating in in a 
world where budgets are being 

687
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,040
upped for defence, it could be 
that natural capital's security 

688
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,160
issue might actually pique 
interest with government. 

689
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,240
So yeah, tell us. 
Tell us what you've been looking

690
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:14,960
at. 
So war bonds are a really 

691
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,920
fascinating thing that during 
World War One, and I'm just 

692
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,160
talking about my country, 
Canada, which was part of the 

693
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,760
Empire and sent a lot of 
soldiers to fight in the war, it

694
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,920
was an all. 
Then effort by our country as 

695
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,280
part. 
Of the British Empire and it 

696
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:30,760
wasn't a really rich country 
then. 

697
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,680
And so the finance minister got 
the idea of issuing war bonds, 

698
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,880
which would actually the 
citizens would lend money to the

699
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,440
government to win the war, and 
they would lend money at cheaper

700
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,480
than the rates the government 
could borrow at. 

701
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,680
So it was something called 
concessional finance. 

702
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,600
And he thought maybe we could 
raise a billion dollars like 

703
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,680
this. 
So they issued timidly the first

704
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,920
war bond to see if they could 
fund the war effort at a 

705
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,720
discount through its. 
Citizens directly rather than 

706
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:01,200
borrowing money from the big 
global bankers, it was almost 

707
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,080
instantly oversubscribed and 
they raised tonnes of money 

708
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,880
through war bonds. 
And that's like people lending 

709
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,360
money to the government at a 
discount to get something they 

710
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,360
wanted, which was they wanted to
win the war. 

711
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:17,480
And what's being discussed now, 
a version of this is the 

712
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,680
Tropical Forest Forever 
financing facility that's being 

713
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,560
in the news right now. 
So what is that? 

714
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,160
Well, that's a model of 
financing tropical forest 

715
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,440
conservation with concessional 
finance. 

716
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,040
People will essentially lend 
money into $25 billion pot, 

717
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,480
agreed to defer their capital 
payments, agreed to get a return

718
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,520
on that money. 
That's basically just the rate 

719
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,600
of U.S. 
Treasury securities as opposed 

720
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,320
to if they put it into the stock
market and then the people who 

721
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,320
get that money. 
Which will be held at some 

722
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,520
global financial institution 
potentially. 

723
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:54,840
We'll invest that in a higher 
return thing and keep the spread

724
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,480
and they'll also create bonds 
with the AAA rate of return that

725
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,640
are de risked by virtue of this 
other pool of subordinate 

726
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,120
capital, junior capital as it's 
called, which is this 25 billion

727
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,520
and try to raise $125 billion 
which gets invested at a higher.

728
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,440
Return and then the spread the 
premium. 

729
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,200
The difference, which is 
estimated to be 3 or $4 billion,

730
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,320
will go into tropical forest 
conservation across something 

731
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,520
like 80 countries. 
That's just a new. 

732
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,960
Version of the war bond. 
And I think we've got to 

733
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,720
simplify our stories. 
This is like war bonds are 

734
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:32,280
something that that that people 
participated in as a matter of 

735
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,760
course because there was a 
problem to solve. 

736
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,720
There was a big problem. 
It was an existential problem. 

737
00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:40,720
Well, guess what? 
We have an existential problem 

738
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:42,600
right now. 
Where do you stabilise the 

739
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,440
conditions in which humanity 
depends for stable society? 

740
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,280
My goodness, that's certainly 
worth investing. 

741
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,440
Yeah, I think $5.5 billion in 
the end was announced for TFFF 

742
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,360
at COP 30 and it, you know, it's
an ambitious initiative. 

743
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,400
But what I hope that this does 
is it opens the conversation 

744
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,360
more broadly to the capital 
appreciation side of the Ledger 

745
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,600
that I talked about earlier to 
the insurance product approach. 

746
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:12,040
But I'm I'm really cheering for 
this mechanism. 

747
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,960
Because it it's an opening into 
valuing intact nature. 

748
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:19,400
There's zero additionality if 
you use those words. 

749
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,280
From carbon markets. 
In this this is all about intact

750
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,120
nature. 
Intact nature matters far more 

751
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,840
than planting trees. 
It's not even close at the 

752
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,720
global scale. 
Saving what we've got less 

753
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,040
halting the loss of 
biodiversity? 

754
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,120
Halt loss is way more important 
than restoration. 

755
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,120
It's not even close. 
When we say this is the UN 

756
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,120
decade of restoration, that's 
the decade of filling a hole 

757
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,880
with the shovel. 
OK, Meanwhile, we've got a giant

758
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,360
backhoe digging a gargantuan 
hole in intact nature next door,

759
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,920
and we're busy trying to fill 
that hole with the shovel. 

760
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,400
It's insane. 
Stop the backhoe digging and 

761
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,760
fill the hole with the shovel. 
Then we got a chance. 

762
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,680
That's why it's halt and reverse
the loss of. 

763
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,360
Nature. 
That's the essence of the nature

764
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,840
positive idea, which is the 
vision of the global 

765
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,320
biodiversity framework. 
If we don't halt the loss of 

766
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,960
intact nature, we're in trouble.
TFFF is about halting the loss 

767
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,880
of intact tropical rainforests. 
Wonderful, because that's the 

768
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,920
innovation direction we need to 
go in. 

769
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,080
So what I know, one of the 
things that we've discussed is 

770
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,760
around this nature as a security
issue. 

771
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,680
And I wanted to come back to 
this. 

772
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,160
So here in the UK earlier in the
year there. 

773
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,200
Was a report. 
From government that highlighted

774
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,760
the impacts of degraded natural 
environment internationally on 

775
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,400
UK national security. 
And at the moment, it just feels

776
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,880
like governments are, you know, 
obviously facing short, middle 

777
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,840
term, who knows, geopolitical 
national security risks. 

778
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,920
And so environmental risk feels 
like it's not quite as high up 

779
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,200
the agenda as maybe it was 
looking like it could get. 

780
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,840
But do you think this security 
lens specifically may lend 

781
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,760
itself to more larger 
investments from governments? 

782
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,600
What do you think? 
I understand that security 

783
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,760
analysts associated with 
government are already looking 

784
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,520
at this as a huge security 
issue. 

785
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,640
There are a lot of military 
analysts who say that the Syrian

786
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:31,840
civil war was a product of the 
decline of agriculture that 

787
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,080
caused the urbanisation of an 
ethnic group. 

788
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,920
Into cities where there was a 
different ethnic group that blew

789
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,680
up and created the Syrian civil 
war. 

790
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,920
That then created a migrant 
problem of a million people into

791
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,680
Europe, which almost unravelled 
the European Union. 

792
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,680
That's. 
An economic effect of security 

793
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,520
relating to climate change and 
DRY. 

794
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,200
Nature, the climate, all of that
functioning within the sort of 

795
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,360
stable bounds of what's called 
the Holocene. 

796
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,600
That the period of stability 
since the last Ice Age until the

797
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,320
Anthropocene, which is the 
period of instability we're 

798
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,000
inflicting on ourselves now for 
the last 50 or so years, or that

799
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,880
gives us more closer to 75 years
now we've got to get back to 

800
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,120
this more stable system if we 
want. 

801
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,400
The systems we recognise to 
continue to function because if 

802
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:24,400
you let's say you break the 
bread basket of South America by

803
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,240
clearing the Amazon forest and 
you suddenly have 10s of 

804
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:32,720
millions of people with no food 
in bankrupt countries. 

805
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,080
Are those people going to stay 
there and die, or are they going

806
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,720
to migrate the way people are 
already migrating N to the 

807
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:42,400
northern hemisphere, the US and 
Canada, where there's already a 

808
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,000
huge. 
Political issue in the United 

809
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,840
states about illegal. 
Immigration and all that. 

810
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,080
And this is not just the Amazon.
This also applies to the Congo. 

811
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,120
The Congo rainforest works the 
same way as the Amazon 

812
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,920
rainforest. 
It rains, and then the forest 

813
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,240
rains on itself all the way. 
Where does that rain go? 

814
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,600
Well, that rain goes up into the
Upper Nile, the Lake Victoria 

815
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,320
area. 
OK, Well, that's not hugely 

816
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,160
important for agricultural trade
at the global level the way 

817
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,760
Brazil and Argentina are, but 
it's sure important. 

818
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,240
To the 10s of millions of people
who live there and depend on 

819
00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:13,800
that for their subsistence 
farms. 

820
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:16,920
How about we wipe that out by 
cutting down the Congo 

821
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,600
rainforest? 
Destroy the rain that falls, the

822
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,400
headwaters in the Nile. 
You'd be able, you'd imagine the

823
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,440
flood of people across the 
Mediterranean because they're 

824
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,760
starving, because they have 
nowhere else to go. 

825
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,480
This becomes a massive problem 
for Europe at the fundamental 

826
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,960
economic survival level. 
These are the levels that at 

827
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,840
which we can think about 
security, not securities, but 

828
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,560
security which is of course 
destabilises economies, of 

829
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,560
course it destabilises 
societies. 

830
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,080
You can't. 
We can't inflict this harm on 

831
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,960
planet Earth without humans 
suffering the consequence. 

832
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,040
And This is why it behoves us to
act fast and big in our 

833
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,920
self-interest, for financial 
reasons if nothing else. 

834
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,720
Let alone the equity of not 
putting these people through 

835
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:04,120
that misery. 
Let alone the concern that I 

836
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,840
hold so deeply as an ethical 
issue that I'm no better than 

837
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,080
the rest. 
Of life as Homo sapiens and I 

838
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,280
have a duty of responsibility 
and relationship with the rest 

839
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,560
of the world to safeguard the 
well-being of every species. 

840
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,440
I believe that the core of my 
heart. 

841
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,600
So I mean, almost two years ago 
now, gosh, time flies. 

842
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,000
And we worked with, you know, 
several academic and research 

843
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,640
partners on analysing nature 
related macroeconomic risks for 

844
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,280
the UK and the University of 
Reading developed a national 

845
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,760
risk register specific to nature
related economic risk. 

846
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:43,480
And in the top right box of the 
risk, so highest impact, highest

847
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,080
likelihood was economic risk 
from immigration due to food 

848
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,560
security. 
And there were others in that 

849
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,320
box too, like antimicrobial 
resistance and pandemics. 

850
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:58,440
But it was very, very clearly an
urgent and high impact risk. 

851
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,040
And, you know, that point has 
been followed up in that report 

852
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:03,880
I mentioned earlier from the UK 
government. 

853
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,720
And yet we're still not seeing 
governments prioritise, or at 

854
00:46:07,720 --> 00:46:10,960
least not publicly saying 
they're prioritising, that kind 

855
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,320
of risk. 
Well, I'll, I'll tell you why I 

856
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,360
think it is. 
I think we've allowed those of 

857
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,000
us who are concerned about these
things, have allowed this to be 

858
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:23,080
the conversation among 
specialists and we haven't had a

859
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,920
simple conversation with our 
neighbours in words they can 

860
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:32,400
understand that if you want the 
UK to be a stable place and to 

861
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,440
be able to control immigration 
and you know, all of those 

862
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,480
self-image things that Britain 
holds so dear, you better care a

863
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:45,200
lot about these problems or the 
future is not going to be 1 you 

864
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,120
like and it doesn't matter who 
you vote for. 

865
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,320
And we're not having that kind 
of conversations with society. 

866
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,040
We're having these very 
technical conversations, you 

867
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,680
know, and the language we use on
our side of the Ledger isn't the

868
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,960
language of intended to make 
other people understand. 

869
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,960
We use language of policy 
specialists trying to influence 

870
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,360
policy experts to see the logic 
and reason behind our words. 

871
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,440
That would then result in a 
tweak inside government that the

872
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,360
Treasury might respond to and 
brief up the cabinet to cause it

873
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,600
to occur. 
No, we need something that 

874
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,720
causes every cabinet member to 
think this is a problem and 

875
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:21,800
asking the treasury and the 
people beneath it, how do we 

876
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,760
solve it. 
And instead we're trying to go 

877
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,480
up as specialists because this 
is the comfortable space for 

878
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,160
people like you and me and 
probably most of the listeners 

879
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,080
on this podcast is these are 
hard problems. 

880
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,240
These are wicked problems. 
They need to be thought through.

881
00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:37,040
There's a Rubik's Cube that we 
need to twist and turn and get 

882
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,640
all the colours right. 
And then then we need to sell it

883
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,720
on other smart policy people 
instead of us doing the hard 

884
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:47,000
work of abstracting the problems
into the simple language that 

885
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,760
motivates people to create the 
conditions where policy can be 

886
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,120
made. 
And this is where I'm interested

887
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,760
in the kinds of conversations 
we're having today. 

888
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,440
You know, you can make it. 
Making money is OK. 

889
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,920
We all need it. 
Let's make money in a way that's

890
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,520
good for us, not bad for us. 
And, you know, let's let's think

891
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,680
in terms of what we're doing 
with the kind of urgency that 

892
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,120
enabled us to invest in 
ourselves through things like 

893
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,000
war bonds, because that's where 
we are. 

894
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,160
And let's wrap that all in a 
message of hope. 

895
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,680
We can do this. 
We can turn this corner if we 

896
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,840
can tweak the financial system. 
Money moves so fast it's 

897
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,640
unbelievable there you know 
money can move at the speed of 

898
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,960
light in private money 
government moves at the speed of

899
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,320
a brontosaurus. 
And so let's take advantage of 

900
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,040
that speed and nimbleness and 
the the return seeking nature of

901
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:45,760
private money directed through 
public policy to making a return

902
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,880
in a benign way. 
So for example, just requiring 

903
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,400
companies to have natural. 
Capital on the balance sheets or

904
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,560
an idea that I've had which is? 
What if banks could invest 1% of

905
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,760
the reserves they're obligatory 
required to hold for the 

906
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,640
stability of the banks? 
But if 1% of that 100% that they

907
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,760
have to hold could go to buy 
natural capital and hold it on 

908
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,080
their balance sheets, there 
would be a huge market overnight

909
00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:13,240
for natural asset company 
stocks. 

910
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:17,080
For other schemes that show 
natural capital value in some 

911
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,640
robust and regulatory type way, 
there'll be an instant market. 

912
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,120
And why wouldn't we do that? 
Why do we have those rules of 

913
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,560
having reserves in banks for the
stability of the banking system?

914
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,600
And what was the network for 
greening the financial system, 

915
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,640
which is all the central banks 
of the world. 

916
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,240
There are 115 or so of them. 
What do they say? 

917
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,360
Nature risk is a monstrous 
threat to banking systems. 

918
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,560
Well, let's deploy some of the 
capital in the banking system to

919
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:46,160
solve for the risk that they're 
running instead of just saying, 

920
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,480
golly, those dumb 
environmentalists, they haven't 

921
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,240
figured out a way to pay for 
this. 

922
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,360
No, we haven't. 
Help us, Help us. 

923
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,440
It's. 
True think. 

924
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,960
Think what can we do? 
Harvey? 

925
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,520
You're so, you know, optimistic,
as you say, full of hope and 

926
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,560
positive. 
And I, I think it's great to 

927
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,840
sort of really try and all the 
work you're doing around like, 

928
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,440
let's think out the box, Let's 
think a lot bigger. 

929
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,160
Let's stop just going, oh, it's 
really hard. 

930
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,320
And you know, how many meetings 
we come to and everyone will 

931
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,080
just present all the barriers 
and it's very hard to move 

932
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,400
people into talking about 
solutions because it's, you 

933
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,120
know, it's an uncomfortable and 
new place for people. 

934
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,720
So I love, I just love what 
you're doing and I love all 

935
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:27,360
these ideas that, you know, what
I'm sure will be built upon in 

936
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,160
the next few months or years or 
whatever, whatever it is. 

937
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,760
I mean, just before we go, I 
mean, anything that you wanted 

938
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,000
to leave us with either sort of 
sharing what, what you've got 

939
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,840
coming up or just leaving us 
with something to, to think 

940
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:40,840
about. 
Well, First off, thanks for 

941
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,840
those kind words, Helen. 
They mean a lot coming from 

942
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,160
someone who's worked as hard as 
you have on these things. 

943
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,200
And I'm glad that we're 
colleagues working on them 

944
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,560
still. 
And in fact, the whole Green 

945
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,440
Finance Institute, I'm just so 
pleased that you exist and that 

946
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:56,920
as a community you're, you're 
interested in these things. 

947
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,200
But you know what? 
Give I want to maybe end with 

948
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,400
this. 
At the end of the day, humans 

949
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,000
are a narrative. 
Driven species. 

950
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:08,440
The stories we tell ourselves 
about what a good life is, is 

951
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,240
what we do. 
So This is why I'm such a big 

952
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:15,200
fan of the nature positive idea,
which is we need to halt and 

953
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,840
reverse the loss of nature by 
20-30 to put the earth back on 

954
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,680
a. 
Recovery system and then that 

955
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,480
feeds into this idea of 
stabilising the planet back to 

956
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,440
more like what we recognise that
we've come through as the 

957
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,760
Holocene and less and less like 
the Anthropocene. 

958
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,440
That's what it means. 
We can do that. 

959
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,360
We can say that this is our 
shared ambition, that our 

960
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,800
financial systems could align 
with such a vision, that our 

961
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,160
government approaches could 
align with such a vision. 

962
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,280
And it's a vision that is 
inherently hopeful. 

963
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,360
And our problem is if we 
continue to ride the rocket sled

964
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:50,320
of the current system, there's 
only one diagnosis and that is 

965
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:54,720
that smoking kills. 
This is we are on a sled that's 

966
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:56,600
accelerating towards a bad 
place. 

967
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,160
That sled doesn't have to 
accelerate towards a bad place. 

968
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,720
The point of Inflexion could be 
placed to make it accelerate 

969
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,240
towards a good place. 
It's just up to us, our systems 

970
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:09,080
and our imagination. 
And I think we're up to it. 

971
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:13,000
But I also think we need to 
simplify the conversation and 

972
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,120
involve more people in it. 
This is not the role of the holy

973
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,440
priesthood. 
This is the role of the citizen,

974
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:22,640
the politician, the banker, the 
insurer, the, you know, the 

975
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:27,960
pension fund and the 
environmentalist and and and and

976
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,800
the army and the security 
concerned people we all need to 

977
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,640
recognise. 
That the Spanish Armada is off 

978
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,160
the coast and there's no storm 
that's going to save. 

979
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:41,000
Us the Spanish Armada is right 
there and it's about to dock. 

980
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,640
So how about we take away the 
docks? 

981
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,720
And figure out how to create 
some conditions where that 

982
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:51,040
doesn't come and take over to 
our detriment, the world. 

983
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,520
We want to live in those. 
Kinds of more simple metaphors 

984
00:52:56,280 --> 00:53:01,240
and those kinds of understanding
of the moment we're in, which 

985
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:03,920
is, you know, when I was a young
person, I used to read Winston 

986
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:08,680
Churchill's stuff and I thought,
gosh, you know, those people 

987
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:10,760
were so lucky. 
This is my parents generation. 

988
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,400
They were so lucky that they 
lived through such meaningful 

989
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,120
times. 
Well, be careful what you wish 

990
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:17,600
for because that's where we are 
now. 

991
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:19,880
We live in a very meaningful 
time. 

992
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:23,560
What we do and the pivots we 
make now, and I'm talking about 

993
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,360
pivots, not slow evolutionary 
nudges. 

994
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,520
I'm talking about pivots. 
The pivots we make now will 

995
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,880
determine the 21st century. 
And we're already in the glue. 

996
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:34,720
But we can pivot out of the 
glue. 

997
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,360
Or we can just say, oh, it's all
too hard. 

998
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,000
I wish it were easier. 
Let's write another policy paper

999
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:47,440
describing the problems and find
ourselves at the bottom of an 

1000
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,480
abyss. 
But we're not the first 

1001
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:54,040
generation to face this. 
If, you know, I'm using British 

1002
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,560
metaphors, But I mean, this is 
what it is to be human. 

1003
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,920
They have faced the big 
challenges and, you know, Rome 

1004
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,640
couldn't face its big 
challenges. 

1005
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:06,760
Rome imploded because they 
couldn't figure out how to solve

1006
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,120
for too many mouths to feed. 
They were degrading the 

1007
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,920
Mediterranean basin. 
They desertified the north of 

1008
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:14,840
Africa, which was once a bread 
basket. 

1009
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,880
They couldn't figure it out. 
And they had too much internal 

1010
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,640
dysfunction in their society to 
do anything collectively. 

1011
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,440
OK, well has that always been 
the case? 

1012
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,480
No. 
If you look at the 19th and 20th

1013
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,560
century in Europe, it was able 
to pivot out of succeeding 

1014
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:32,040
crises into something better. 
Not perfect, but better. 

1015
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:34,920
And one of the I'll leave you 
with this thought. 

1016
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:39,080
I've read some research on 
happiness in the UK and Britons 

1017
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:43,760
were never happier, according to
the research, than after World 

1018
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,760
War 2 when they were enduring 
rationing because they were 

1019
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,440
rebuilding a society that was 
more egalitarian. 

1020
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,240
They were part of a new world 
order that wanted to put an end 

1021
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:54,480
to wars. 
And they were prepared to make 

1022
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,440
that sacrifice for a better 
life. 

1023
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,560
And they were never happier than
they were in the early 1950s. 

1024
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,640
And they were never more 
objectively poor in the 20th 

1025
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,720
century than they were in the 
19. 50s That's because they had 

1026
00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:09,160
a sense of purpose. 
They believed in what they were 

1027
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:10,560
doing. 
They were proud of what they 

1028
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:12,200
came through. 
They were proud of the 

1029
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,640
sacrifices they made. 
Well, it's our turn. 

1030
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:18,200
We need you for global president
Harvey. 

1031
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,400
Look, someone out there 
rallying, We can have Team 

1032
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:23,880
Harvey on our T-shirts to remind
us because it's such a 

1033
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,360
despondency at the moment. 
I think people just sort of, 

1034
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,360
they sort of see the society 
unravelling like either side of 

1035
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,520
your political spectrum. 
You can't help but notice that 

1036
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,840
we are not in a good place in a 
lot of countries. 

1037
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,800
So it is this sort of rallying 
cry that people do do need and 

1038
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,400
will step up. 
But yeah, so yes, Team Harvey 

1039
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:46,640
for the win. 
Thank you for a fun 

1040
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,160
conversation. 
Thank you, Harvey. 

1041
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:49,760
It's lovely. 
You know, it's taken up lots of 

1042
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,600
your time and I'm very 
appreciative of your generosity.

1043
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:54,160
Thank you and good luck with 
everything. 

1044
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:56,000
Thanks, Alan. 
Bye bye. 

1045
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,600
Well, that's it for today. 
Thank you so much for joining 

1046
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:10,160
us, and do reach out to Harvey 
if you've got big ideas. 

1047
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,480
As we said, he's really on a 
mission to find and Support 

1048
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,360
Solutions and is extremely open 
to transformative and bold 

1049
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,560
ideas. 
So if you have them, definitely 

1050
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:23,120
look him up and let him know 
what they are Next week, and it 

1051
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,520
will be next week is going to be
our very last show and sadly my 

1052
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,760
very last episode actually, but 
I'll be joined by the wonderful 

1053
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,520
Justin Adams. 
Justin is a fellow at the 

1054
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:38,200
Circular by Economy Alliance and
he also founded Ostara. 

1055
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,480
He's been looking at how we can 
reimagine nature finance and 

1056
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,920
inclusive capitalism and has 
been doing some great work with 

1057
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,360
people around the world, 
including Kate Rayworth of 

1058
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,960
Doughnut Economics fame. 
In thinking in terms of system 

1059
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:52,720
change. 
I know that's a phrase there's 

1060
00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:55,360
some change that he's not a huge
fan of, but that's what we're 

1061
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,280
going to be looking at really. 
How do we sort of start to sort 

1062
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,760
of change some of the 
fundamentals Until then, you can

1063
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:07,440
find out more about us at 
www.greenfinanceinstitute.com. 

1064
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,320
All the information around 
revenues for Nature is also 

1065
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,400
there and hope you have a 
wonderful week.